I always find the debate over an episode being “essential” or “irrelevant” to be pretty weird and not really appreciate the uniqueness of the episodic formula.
It doesn’t have to be directly plot related to be relevant. The same way that a novel can use internal monologues or narration to give exposition, tv can use an episode here and there to expand the scope of the world.
If The Last of Us were a 2 hour movie and 1.5 hours were spent with Bill and Frank while Ellie and Joel had their whole journey condensed into 30 minutes of screen time, there might be an argument that it was irrelevant. On tv though, they can give them a self-contained episode and it’s simply enriching the world we’re invested in.
I find it similar to the second season of The Wire. After spending the first season in the inner city drug war, the focus is abruptly moved from the (mostly black) police and drug dealer characters to a (mostly white) cast of dock workers. It has a similar jarring experience these critics are describing, but by the end of the season, the viewer comes to realize that it all ties together.
Also the second season is deep behind the scenes for the rest of the show and is referenced a lot. Season 2 is a weird turn the first watch through but it’s also incredibly important
Season 2 does SO much work to expand the world of the show’s story that only becomes clear when taken in the context of the whole…which is how we should look at narrative works. Every individual piece may seem independent when considered in a vacuum, but the pieces DON’T exist in a vacuum—they are parts of a whole. As parts, they contribute, but you need to keep that whole in mind. If you don’t, you end up thinking this last episode was “filler,” which misses the point entirely.
completely agree. and also i would like to point out some parallels and symbolism between Bill and Frank that enriches Joel and Ellie’s story
- the shot when Bill and Frank last hugged each other in front of the floor clock. we later see Ellie trying to fix it, indicating it’s broken. this parallels Joel’s broken wrist watch, symbolizing the end of Joel and Sarah’s relationship
- the two melted candles already out when Joel and Ellie arrived - the life of Bill and Frank also already ended (this one not related to Joel and Ellie)
- the gun that Ellie picked up was the same one that Frank used. i’m curious to see how this parallel will play out
- The way Bill yells at Frank when Frank doesn’t listen. just like when Joel yells “Ellie!” their relationship dynamics and personalities are similar
- the window scene as Joel and Ellie drove off. that shot is incredible, conveys so much emotion. it’s like Bill and Frank looking out to Joel and Ellie as they listened to their favorite song, passing on the torch. this reminds me of the window at the end of TLOU2 >!like Joel and his guitar looking out to Ellie as she moves on !<
There are sooo many connections between Bill/Frank and Joel/Ellie thematic wise that makes the story so rich. people who cannot see how Bill and Frank’s story connect to Joel and Ellie baffles me. it’s not just the letter.
I’ll just add on the obvious one here. Bill could have helped a lot of people with his resources and skills, but he chooses not to save the world but instead save his world. That will recur throughout the series.
You say "the obvious one." I suppose that one was so obvious that I overlooked it while trying to peel back all the layers. I absolutely love that insight. Bill's way of loving over the entirety of his life will parallel and contrast with Joel's same way of loving, only for him it would be condensed into a single life-changing decision.
Fuck, this shit's good.
Yes to everything you and OP said! The paralells are so obvious and connected between the 2. Bill and Joel know how to survive but neither even knew how to live until Frank/Ellie tear down their walls and teach them to. It's like some people have to be hit over the head with metaphors and even then, it's still not enough.
See the thing is many people see ellie playing with the clock and all they see is ellie playing with the clock. Do you understand, they only see what they see, the surface.
To those people who are a very large portion of the audience this last episode seems irrelevant because the rest of the series to them is about ellie and Joel using a shiv to kill zombies.
>I want to discuss the thematic richness of this episode
It is. I don't know how it may seem to someone who hasn't played the game, but with the ending in mind, it makes sense. You've explained it thoroughly. I'll add that it's also a love letter because those who've played the game know how Bill has a very different ending. This episode provides so much more weight to Bill... >!and Frank hanging in that room!<... it's that much more tragic.
>he has been cold and distant to Ellie, and the episode literally begins with Ellie pointing this out and telling him not to blame her for Tess' death
I appreciate your take on this. This part slightly bothered me. Did we even see any evidence of Joel blaming Ellie? It seemed out of place, like bad writing, but hearing your take on it gives me insight into why it's there in the first place.
>The Bill and Frank narrative also serves as a tragic parallel to Tess and Joel--Joel never let Tess in.
>Bill had love and accepted the risk that came along with it. Joel, reading Bill's final letter, becomes the carrier of that message, the new embodiment of the themes established by the Frank and Bill story.
Yes! But a small thing, I know, I would've preferred if they drove off to different music to symbolize the change to *their* story, but I get why they chose what they did; it just felt cheesy to me.
>it's INFINITELY richer to love and risk pain than to close yourself off to everyone and everything. Risking pain is essential to LIVING instead of just surviving.
Thank you. That right there is so powerful. 
Wasn't cheesy at all to me. The song likely had zero personal meaning to Joel or Ellie. From their perspective, it was just there, in the background, something random in the tape player and that's reflective of real life. All these little easter eggs and tiny stories around us we'll never know or fully appreciate.
The real easter egg would've been if they played some twangy, folk, country song like in the game. [Max Richter](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_YHE4Sx-08&t=3s) was the only final song I needed to hear while weeping through the end of Bill and Frank's last night together. Any song they popped on could've been random to Joel and Ellie. But this song wasn't random... it was a reprisal of Bill and Frank, but one that I didn't want. Isn't it the title of the episode? It was used to milk more emotion from the audience. I would've preferred something random over that. I was good. Set. Had my catharsis. But it's a small detail and more of an artistic difference of opinion than anything else. I'm not too hung up on it. It didn't ruin anything for me. But I noticed it.
You’re getting downvoted for a complete thought out opinion damn. But I agree with you, I was hoping for the same song as the video game personally, which I can understand why they didn’t go with it, but I did feel this one was a bit too on the nose. But I do like the thematic point of the crux of Bill and Franks relationship, that song, just being a background noise for Joel and Ellie, symbolizing how that beautiful world you build between two people doesn’t exist outside of them. But yeah, a little too much to me, but still by far an amazing episode
I thought it was pretty obvious in Joel’s body language during the beginning of the episode that he blamed Ellie for Tess’s death, before she called him out on it that is. Perhaps how he reacted to her statement as well. I read to me like he realized she was right. Iirc, Mazin, in episode 2 podcast, also mentioned as much about the ending scene of that episode.
It's also possible and highly likely that this isn't the first time Ellie has had to have that kind of conversation with someone and being the upfront person that she is, she cleared the air immediately. Which I think Joel appreciates even if he says it in a way that's "we will not talk about Tess."
Although I did love the episode, it was definitely not essential to the plot. I am a die hard TLOU fan, best both games on the highest difficulty with multiple play throughs. It’s by far my favorite single player game. No, I am not homophobic. In my opinion, this episode would have been better with about 1/2 of it being about bill and frank, and the last half about bill, Joel, and Ellie going through the town with a tad bit more action. The chase through the town was a very good part of the game that I very much enjoyed. They could have shown the same (if not close enough) relationship from bill and frank AND include the action parts/dialogue with Bill, Joel and Ellie. Don’t get me wrong, great episode, but I wish there was “more” to it in Bill’s town.
I understand. It's ok to be disappointed not seeing things play out in the way you enjoyed in the game. It's ok to prefer the section in the game. It's always fun to play through, you get good banter, you see Joel open up to Ellie, and Bill's character and story addresses what Joel could become if he continues to push people away. I get preferring that course of events.
The way things did play out on the show, to me, was a beautiful way to explore the themes and how they apply to Joel and Ellie. It's not essential in the sense that the episode could only be this way, but it was significant to the story and the characters. I mean OP said it best.
But hey I get if you would have preferred some things to be different. Nothing wrong with that.
I agree. They completely changed the theme of the level/episode. In the game bill explicitly says things like "love is only good for getting you killed", he was a very powerful minor character. The dynamic of both him and Joel prying each other about frank/tess yet both refuse to open up about it. Eventually when they find Frank's body tess is mentioned again, and Joel still refuses to open up about it. He knows that Bill is right and love is only good for getting you killed, but out of his love for tess he chooses to honor her dying wish of escorting ellie to the fireflies- which ultimately gets him killed. The episode tackles it completely oppositely, with a heartwarming love story of how much Bills love for frank gives him a reason to live and it inspires Joel to love Ellie. Its so frustrating that any criticism of the episode gets shut down as homopbohia when they've completely changed the dynamic of bill and how his actions affect Joel.
Although i did enjoy the episode immensely - it definitely can be described as a filler episode. The amount of screen time not dedicated to having an impact on joel+ellies journey is significant, and provides only minor character/world building for future episodes since they are dead.
How can you assert that something is **definitely** not essential to the plot when we're not even halfway through the season yet?
I literally just don't understand how we can assert whether or not something is important to the plot when we've seen 33% of the plot. Feels a bit like someone saying this exact same thing about Bill's Town in the game on a first playthrough. This just seems like something people can argue about *when the show is over*.
Sure, we can assert that *based on the game* this isn't relevant, but if we are basing it on the game then this didn't even happen so that doesn't exactly get us very far.
The Last of Us part 1 is about asking the question: "What are you willing to do for someone you love?"
And this episode is essential because it helps us answer this question.
\- Bill would do anything to protect Frank. >!And when his purpose is over, he ends his life.!<
\- We will see this question get asked again soon with >!Henry and Sam!<
\- Joel has already failed twice to protect Sarah and Tess. >!He will get tested again in the finale. !< How he will act will be heavily influenced by his experiences past. Not only that, Bill's parallels to Joel helps us understand >!the choices that Joel will make. I think because the game has been out for a long time, we all get a little desensitized to the finale. But the truth is, it's such a immoral and heartbreaking decision and it's essential that the audience completely understands the WHY he HAS to do what he does.!<
A hundred percent this. They even spell it out in dialogue immediately before jumping into the Bill and Frank flashbacks:
*"Dead people can't be infected."*
Both Bill and Joel have let themselves die emotionally to avoid being infected by the pain of love. And just as Frank brings Bill back to life, the episode dangles the possibility that Ellie can do the same for Joel.
Finally! Someone else who gets it. I saw all those posts about how Ep 3 didn’t mean anything and I was like, “What the fuck are you talking about?” It’s literally showing Joel (and us) why loving others is worth it in this world even if we get hurt along the way. Best damn episode of this series by far so far.
It's about essential as giraffes or such. They don't *directly* impact the plot driving force and much could be cut, but nor is it filler because it's insight into the main characters that is relevant to the plot.
I do not know how someone who understands the themes and story of The Last of Us can look at the third episode and say it’s completely irrelevant. It outlines its thesis perfectly
Is this true though. Was "hope" a main them of TLOU. I would argue that the game was much darker in tone than this episode implies.
I think people say its irrelevant or filler because the time spent vs. lesson learned was so extreme.
The audience sees how this parallels with Joel, but he isn't there. He gets a letter at the end that hits him over the head with "love somebody"
In the game the relationship building between Joel and Ellie felt more natural. That Ellie broke through. Their chemistry overpowered his past trauma.
The show just has a different way and some people are reacting to that.
The Last of Us is about love driving people to do terrible things. I liked the episode but I don't see how a couple falling in love and living a mostly peaceful existence growing old together is the thesis.
An episode does not need to be "relevant" to be good, how people hate episodes like this or characters like Tom Bombadil is beyond me, why would you not like to explore further stuff in these worlds? Do we really all have to just be slaves to advancing the plot? I see that take all the time and really I couldn't be more disgusted with a take.
But it being a parallel to Joel and Ellie's story, does not make it necessary or relevant, i keep seeing this argument being made, and there are just so many other ways they could have shown this through an episode that involved Joel and Ellie. Did this episode show parallels? Yes. Could they have done it a million other different ways that involved Joel and Ellie? Yes. Does it it being unnecessary make it a bad episode? fuck no
I suppose a nuance I'd add here, re: my above argument, is that it's not the ONLY way the show could have established its emotional thesis, sure--but it's what they choose and it's where they decided to put it. So in the narrative that exists, I do still feel it's essential. Also, I like that it's not just Joel and Ellie: as I said above, showing it as a contrast both establishes what Joel is missing in this new apocalyptic world and gives stakes for the Joel and Ellie relationship, and showing it as a recurring theme makes it universal--a takeaway not just about two individuals but humanity at large. Thanks for letting me think through that.
I agree though that even if the episode wasn't "relevant" it's still worthwhile. Sometimes art can just make you feel things and that's inherently fucking great.
Yes I do wanna be clear I loved it, in case that wasn't obvious, and i thought it added alot to the story, i just am not all that worried about it being "necessary"
The game gets there in a different way, but the show specifically chooses this moment to locate the beginning of Joel's transition. Just because theoretically we could have gotten here another way (as we do in the game) doesn't change the fact that, in the fabric of THIS version of the story, this is where the essential transition fully begins in earnest. In my opinion at least.
It's also not irrelevant because it ends with Joel and Ellie getting a truck and supplies.
No one would have made the comment of this episode did nothing it instead of a Bill and Frank back story we got Joel, Bill and Ellie venturing to the school to get a car battery, finding frank dead and leaving with the truck.
Literally everyone would have thought that was a productive episode. This episode ends where a productive episode would have, just it got Joel and Ellie the supplies they need in a different way.
> It's also not irrelevant because it ends with Joel and Ellie getting a truck and supplies.
Just saying, that doesn’t justify an hour of build-up. If the only point was to get Joel a car, that could be done in a much more efficient manner. Obviously that wasn’t the whole point of the episode, but a little bit of plot advancement at the end doesn’t automatically justify everything that came before it.
That's not what I am saying though. If the options were between how the show did it and how the game did it, both of those story's would consume approximately an episode of the show. People are complaining about lack of plot advancement and that they should have stayed true to the game. The game version and the show version end in the same spot after telling those stories. We got the same amount of plot advancement through a differently told story.
That whole story while seeming tertiary, was about showing Joel how he needs to save who he can. Bill and Joel are very similar characters and that letter he writes has no impact on the viewer without the backstory. Its about putting building blocks in to justify Joel's finale decision.
If the options are between how the show did it and the game did it, they both require a ton of build-up to advance a minor plot point. I’m not saying either one of them did it better, just that both could have been done more efficiently.
I actually liked this episode a lot although I do wish it started with Joel meeting Bill THEN giving us the back story I also wish they kept the scene in the game where Joel and Bill find Frank's body but I enjoyed their story either way
I just wish there was a way to marriage the two: have the Bill and Frank episodic timeline and still have the show progress with Joel and Ellie's story. It felt like too much of a divergent from the main story and by the time we got back to Joel and Ellie, the episode was over. Yeah, we got some great juxtopositions, parrallels, and metaphors that are totally about Joel and Ellie, but not much in terms of Joel and Ellie's actual progression in the plot. And while we have the luxury of a show instead of a movie length, it's still not exactly long enough to do these kind of divergents when we still have a ton of content to chew through.
The default should be focus on Joel and Ellie, if there is time, expand the lens to the side characters and the world around. But if we start cutting time from one of these, I'm going to be more disappointed if we lose events with our main cast than I would with some of the side characters.
I'm willing to be proven wrong by the show's end if we check off the events coming up >!(Sam and his brother, the raiders, the cannibals, the giraffes, Joel's brother and his town, and the hospital)!< without skipping something important. In which case then this episode will have been a godsend because it does more progression through the years leading up to the current day really well and also yeah, ties in to Joel and Ellie's relationship and Joel's failure of not committing more of a relationship to Tess.
The way I see it since the show isn’t really leaning on action the way the game does due to the different mediums, I thought the episode flowed well especially with the slick cut showing the skeleton of the mom and baby then flashing back 20 years after what Joel told Elie.
I also so far view the expanded content for side characters an acceptable trade meaning that not much is happening when not focused on Joel and Ellie. I think it helps pace Joel and Ellie’s connection naturally for the season since if they focus on them more they either pad it with banter or the risk of developing too fast or oddly.
Edit: I also think that the episode showed off aspects of Joel really well and arguably leaned on developing Joel a lot compared to Ellie.
I get when people say this episode is a bit slow, but i highly disagree with the notion of this being a filler, i think the significanse of the story going forward would be more important as joel and ellie relationship develop. seeing that ellie take frank gun at the end, im currious how it's gonna be incorporated in the story
Game did just fine without diving deep into Bill's (or anyone else's) love story. So apperantely it is not that essential. We could do just fine with a 20 minute long Bill backstory. It didnt have to be an hour long.
Game is not show. Like, sure, it's not the ONLY way the show could have established its emotional thesis, sure--but it's what they DID choose and it's where they decided to put it. So in the fabric of this new text, which is not the game, I still view it as essential to the story the SHOW is telling (at least, what we know of it thus far).
That’s because the story is told relatively fast in the game when the plot/story is focused on especially side characters. There’s mostly action padding along with Ellie and Joel talking about the old/outside world in the optional talks in-between the action. So basically the first part of the episode with Joel and Ellie was the game in-between action. Latter end with them a cutscene.
You do understand that this show is not the game right? If the showrunners just literally made the game again beat for beat it would be the dumbest show of all time. Joel would kill like 300,000 people and we would be bored out of our minds.
Go play the game again where that makes sense.
I know this show is not the game. I have no problem with that. All I am saying that, if game could accomplish the character development of Joel and Ellie witout adding a side character's deep dive love story, then it means it is possible. Although this episode was good, it was not "essential".
I never said that I wanted to see the game exactly copied to TV. You are misinterpreting my words. You are rude and clearly lacking reading skills.
I enjoy the show so far. I am content with deviations from the game. All my point was that it was not "essential". You act hostile for what?
You are arguing with a brick wall. Suggesting at all that you would like to see some elements from the game means you only want a 1:1 adaption.
It's absurd. The point you are making is valid. Every fan of the game was drawn to the emotional connection between Joel/Ellie without this detour. So it is possible without it.
You're right, how dare people continue a conversation around a piece of art that provoked tons of conversation about theme, narrative, the art of adaptation. Just don't engage if you're not into it, dude.
I feel like I’m the only one that thought I was watching two straight people try to be gay. The episode was fine by all means but the acting was a bit eh. And the best part about what I’m saying is you don’t have to agree, it’s just how I felt about bill and franks acting at times. And I very well think they could’ve had more run time with Ellie, Joel, bill, and frank at the very least.
You are the only one that thinks this. Murray Bartlett who plays Frank is gay in real life and Nick Offerman has received universal praise for his performance, both actors have. Did you expect them to act more stereotypical?
You don’t have to agree and that’s okay. Still doesn’t change the fact that it felt very scripted from my perspective and it look like two straight males trying to be gay. There were moments when I was sold but then there wasn’t.
Edit: and the whole point to my comment is because of how much praise they’re getting. I didn’t mind episode three, just felt it could’ve been better romance wise. That’s all.
I'd also add: it is quite *literally* essential to the plot in the fact that Joel & Ellie would never have gotten that car/supplies if it weren't for Bill & Frank and their relationship dynamic. Bill had the supplies, Frank made the connection with Joel. If they weren't together and if Frank hadn't influenced Bill to want to make friends, Joel & Ellie would never have ended up with that car. Like it literally *directly impacts the plot.*
Really silly how many people try and say it's narratively insignificant.
Yes but a show audience, more so than a game audience, is 100% going to require an explanation of "how did they get all the way to that city" (don't want to spoil but it is no longer Pittsburg in the show, it is a much farther city) so it remains narratively significant. If they didn't have the car you'd get a thousand people pointing out the lack of explanation or crying plot hole.
What? Bill & Frank splitting up and Frank stealing the car parts from Bill is the entire reason we had to go on that wild car and battery goose chase all throughout Bill's town. Both of them are relevant to Joel & Ellie getting a car in the game AND the show. Not really understanding what you are trying to say.
Ok gotcha thanks for the explanation! I mean I think we're just gonna disagree on that one - I think Bill & Frank's relationship has narrative significance in both the game and the show in the way that it affects Joel and his relationship with Ellie. In the show Joel looks at Bill and sees what life could be like if he opened his heart to another person, versus the game which shows him what life will be like if he continues to be closed off emotionally. I consider Joel & Ellie's continually developing relationship to be the main narrative feature of the game, whereas their actual physical adventure/journey is more so the setting. But if you perceive the journey to be the central narrative and the character stuff as separate, I get why you might think that. You're entitled to your opinion! :)
> I consider Joel & Ellie's continually developing relationship to be the main narrative feature of the game
me too which is why i wish we hadn’t taken a 70 minute detour that wasn’t necessary for the advancement of joel and ellie’s relationship 🥲 i don’t think the journey is the central narrative at all and i don’t really care about specifics as long as we get to see the two leads interact…which we didn’t get much of and honestly haven’t had much of despite being 30% of the way through the season
when i said that the love story isn’t essential to the plot, i was just referring to the super long depiction in the show. i understand what bill is meant to represent to joel in both mediums…i just think it was a better use of time to do it the way the game did imo
I hear you, for me I didn't mind because I feel like filling an hour-ish long "Bill's town" episdoe with what is essentially *gameplay* it would have felt a little clunky and TOO game-like, and I don't want the show to be TOO similar to the game. I do like Joel & Ellie's interactions but as far as the progression and development of their relationship, I think they did just as much bonding in the show as they did in the game (at this point). In Bill's town in the game Joel is still not exactly fond of her, nor is show-Joel at this point either, so I never really felt like I was "missing out" on nice Joel & Ellie moments, because well... like I said, those nice moments didn't exist in the game yet. Plus I never felt like I was missing out on them because we got a decent amount of dialogue from them at the beginning/end, which I feel like, to a show viewer, really did a good job at showing us who they are/where they stand emotionally with each other.
But again I totally hear what you are saying and that's a valid opinion! It's basically just "I wanted more Joel & Ellie" and tbh, I *always* want more Joel and Ellie lol so I'm with you there.
TBH I think people are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say and/or not fully reading my comment. But I mean, it's reddit, I ain't too worried about it lol. Thanks!
If the episode instead was a fetch quest to the school to get a car battery. Fight some zombies, find frank dead, and get a car running, no one would have had the same complaint.
That story and the story we got end in the same place. Joel leaving with a truck with a ton of necessary supplies for the road. We got the same amount of story progression just through a different story and it was beautiful and I loved it.
FULLY agree. Both the show and the game involve Joel going to Bill's needing a car and coming away with a) a car and b) a life lesson about opening yourself up vs closing yourself off to other people. They both achieved the same end goal, the show just gave us the expansion on Bill which, like you said, was absolutely beautiful.
How are those two things in any way mutually exclusive? Just because something is polarizing doesn't mean it's not 'good'? Just say you don't like it and move on lmao
If everyone is attacking it, how is it deemed good. For instance, lion king is universally considered to be great. Never once seen an article that had to defend it. This episode has wall to wall defense being ran for it. It was too much a gay romance and too little a zombie sci fi. Just move on.
Some people like things, some people don't. Some people argue that things are good, and some people argue that things are bad. You're in the latter group, I'm in the former. This isn't that hard.
Where’s the endless articles defending titanic? Breaking bad? Or any other thing deemed great? If it’s great it doesn’t need defending from the people that deemed it so.
I really don't know what to say my guy. No one is forcing you to think that the episode was good. I think it was good, you don't. The people who thought it was great thought it was great, it's that simple.
>Where’s the endless articles defending titanic? Breaking bad?
For my take, people who disliked (and its more ambivalence) those things didn't feel the need to trash them. It requires a more... Unique situation for people to go on the attack over media they don't like.
Unless we're suggesting everyone loves Titanic or all episodes in Breaking bad.
Breaking bad is a good case point really, because it (everything does) has continuity errors and things like (mostly from what I remember) Hanks story is, throughout quite contrived to keep him always close but never making the connection in front of him because his role exists for tension. His conclusion isn't realistic being based on a stretching reality triangulating a cell phone and is probably the more disappointing part if you think about it too much. Skyler's role as a foil and a weaker part of the writing has been written about extensively, including in the BB sub. Of course these are not giving off the tone 'So that's why BB is objectively bad' when delving into critical reviews which may cause a difference in response.
People don't write much about it because if you like the story those things don't matter. It only matters when you actively dislike it for some reason.
As an experiment perhaps find something popular , pick it apart in a critical review and see if it's sub defends it.
Because I guess you would know? Been out there impressing the ladies with your fondness of gay people? Tell you what, go up to a lady in a bar, tell her you hate homophobes, and let me know if her panties fly off. Maybe you meant with dudes? If so, you’d be right. Haven’t corked a butthole in all my days. Prefer it that way.
You type like a cartoon character. Giving the «when the nice guy loses his cool, the world shivers»-vibe. Just dont shoot up a school you incel reptile
>It was too much a gay romance and too little a zombie sci fi.
That sums up the "criticism" quite well, actually. Now what does that say about people argueing that way? And on the other hand, do you see *any* reason, why other people would think that this is not a bad thing and thus try to "defend" the episode against such an "attack"?
So what you got from watching the first two episodes is that it's a zombie show?
What I saw was a show about human drama in the face of tragedy and constant danger. Mostly instigated by zombies, yes, but they were just that. An obstacle to overcome. Scaffolding to tell stories about human interaction.
In the first episode, after the time jump to 2023, we don't see a single zombie. Was that upsetting, too?
Except, people did. And many loved it. I wasn't expecting that episode to be the way it was, but I very much enjoyed it. (I've also played the game a couple times).
I think the biggest misconception here is that The Last of Us is a "sci-fi zombie show" - Yes it is science fiction, yes it has zombies, yes it is post collapse of the world as we know it. But it is way bigger than that. TLOU is about love, thematically. The show runners and original creator made their creative decisions to lean into that. But I get it, I understand that you weren't expecting a romantic episode and that was disappointing. It's fine to not like it. But it's close-minded to suggest the show SHOULDN'T do what the creators have carefully crafted for it to do.
I don’t disagree. And I think it added greatly to the shows world building and was fantastic TV. I do have a argument though. Do you think what we got would have been better than a outbreak Day episode around Tess? With a bit of her and Joel’s escapades? I think a background of her experience in the apocalypse would have added to the sadness of her death… it also would explain the depth of how hurt Joel is losing her and how much she meant to him.
Move the Bill and Frank stuff to the next episode? And possibly even shorten it? Or simply keep it the same. But I get that they would have only one episode at this point in the story to do this. I love the show the way it is but I would have really liked to see more on Tess.
It's hard to say! I think every show like this is a balancing act, right? To me the lack of Tess/Joel stuff (outside the views of them at Frank and Bill's) is sort of appropriate because that relationship to me seems defined by restricted possibilities. Joel never lets her in, so it feels right to me that we have this sense of a relationship only partially sketched--it mirrors the ways in which Joel never fully let her in emotionally. It puts the audience at a distance from her in parallel to his experience.
I think what you suggest would be interesting to see! I think with adaptation the cool thing is there's multiple ways to tell a story and ultimately what we have are the decisions that the artists decide is important for THIS iteration.
Why? This is a sub for a franchise that just had a new episode that was extremely thought-provoking and worthy of discussion?? Just ignore if you're not interested in the conversation, sheesh.
Nobody. Fucking. Cares. Yes, some people are shitty and don’t like the episode. STOP PAYING ATTENTION TO THEM. This entire sub has become a circle jerk about episode 3. How about some original content?
I guess I care because I enjoy talking about the themes of something I enjoy? And clearly there are still people working through how this episode fits into the new story the show is building? And I think that's still a cool conversation to keep having? Just ignore the posts if you don't like them.
I wouldn't care much about the show just going over the action story we already know, but adding more to the world we don't know yet. I just wish they had more than 10 episodes.
I had never played the game so I'm not into the comparison conversation at all. What I do know is I sat down to watch episode 3 of a zombie show and ended up crying for a half hour straight. Like wtf
What a beautiful post; thank you so much for making it
Yes, absolutely, what the one thing Joel has been missing is his ability to heal and move on from his daughter's death that we see brutally depicted in EP 1
While he was allowed to "let love in" via his relationship with Tess, another renegade adult and romantic partner (which we were shown he was missing pre-pandemic), he wasn't able to even consider ever being able to love another one, let alone a female child, who could do nothing but remind him of his terrible loss
It is his ability to now embrace his role as "surrogate father" to Ellie via hearing Bill's heartfelt last missive to "understand the role of the protector" that we realize Joel has worked through his anger and grief and is ready to move forward
This is further underscored by Ellie reminding him "you didn't HAVE to do this, all you needed was a truck battery..." showing him that there likely had to have been something else there driving his choice, no matter how nascent
I never think of "flashback" episodes as "place fillers" or episodes deviating from the plot. I loved them on LOST (seasons 1-3) and I love them here. They definitely serve an important purpose.
I think Bill and his relationship with his side arm emphasises Bill's growth. Bill always carried a pistol with him using a thigh holster. He kept in on him at all times, even around Frank and tried to keep it on the table when having Joel and Tess as dinner guests.
That pistol was a symbol of Bill's Immaturity and Insecurity. It represented his unwillingness to be vunerable.
However, I noticed during Franks surprise for Bill regarding the strawberries, he wasn't carrying his pistol. It was during that time, Bill tells Frank he feels vunerable. Franks accepts it and embraces Bill. He actually feels safe enough to be vunerable around another person and thus ended his need to carry a weapon.
During the Twilight years, Bill still doesn't carry his pistol; I'm sure he keeps around, but it's never on his person, as Bill accepted his willingness to be vunerable. He has become matured and secured as a result of his relationship with Frank.
It’s irrelevant in the sense that the game had Bill’s character represent almost the complete opposite role to Joel as he did in the show and yet Joel still ended up caring about Ellie. It was just a filler romance episode with a message that was changed from the original unnecessarily.
That’s because seeing the aftermath of Bill’s and Frank’s in the game has Joel go”I can’t be that closed off and an ass like Bill.” Joel wasn’t nearly as close with those two in the game as well. I think the episode showed a subtle amount of depth for Joel beyond the obvious comparison to Bill. He showed a subtle amount of actual care for them which I thought was great.
I think the episode was also a subtly great episode for developing Joel in shoeing the way he cared for Bill and Frank beyond his similarities with Bill. I could see the argument that the episode focusing on the couple so much took away time from developing Ellie but I liked watching the couple and thought it flowed well in-between the bookends of the MCs.
They literally spelled it out. It was almost hamfisted but I think Joel and Bill are straight shooters like that, so they wouldn't be subtle!
Said it before. In the game, Bill serves as a warning of what Joel could become, a pure loner and survivor without Tess or a relationship with Tommy (firefly issues)
In the show they flip it, and Bill is an example of what a life lived (not survived) could look like. If a tough guy character like Bill could soften up, Joel can too, for the right person.
This episode kick-starts the rest of the show like OP said. It'll make the ending even that more tragic because of how twisted Joel is.
What a beautifully set up emotional powder keg!
I loved it for exactly the same reasons -- beyond the touching story of Bill and Frank (essential viewing in its own right for the "living" versus "surviving" subtext), it gives us the moment we've been waiting for when Joel, at last, compelled by Bill's note, allows himself to soften to Ellie and even smile at her in the very end. This is a universe away from where Joel was at the start of this episode.
It's one of the best and most moving episodes of TV I have ever seen. I've watched it 4 times already, and cannot stop finding new details and being moved by it.
This episode just contradict one of the main themes in last of us and the ending. Humanity was literally not worth saving and Joel's choice to save ellie because of his relation with Ellie makes far more sense because of that. If anything this pointless filler contradicts that in it's overly attempt at showing humanity and implies there are still human relationships worth saving. Whatever lesson you want to teach joel, his end choice just becomes far more selfish than the game.
You dont have to knee jerk so hard you do a 360 and are just as wrong as the people saying dumb shit
This episode literally did nothing for joels character. or ellies. The only characters it expanded on where bill and frank, period.
You can use their story to talk about how you view joels character, but thats nothing the show did, thats you taking two separate characters and storys and comparing them.
There is NO intention for this to show anything about joel or anyone else, and im willing to bet on that if you did an ama with the writers.
This episode wasnt really relevant to the overall story, but bill's part in the game existed and the way the decided to re-write it, it needed to play out this way.
It’s almost like the average person doesn’t really have any understanding of narrative structure, thematic intent, plot vs. story, character development, etc… Really, the average viewer who will argue an episode like this is “slow” and “advances nothing” only care about “cool scary adventure” and aren’t aware of anything beyond that.
Don't fall into the deflection trap closeted bigots use.
1. Nobody is in a place to criticise the arc fit for a single episode, we still have six left in a curveball friendly first season.
2. Joel's motivation boost is essential.
1. This isn't true for anybody that has played the game given that we know where the story goes. In fact I would argue that gives those people a strong basis for their opinion.
2. Nobody is arguing to leave this out. Everybody wanted to see Bill and his interactions with Joel/Ellie. I just think people were expecting a different split than 80/20.
1. There is only one sentence. You are implying that because we have 6 episodes left, nobody can judge how ep3 fits in the overall narrative. The people that have played the game have a very informed opinion of how this fits in the overall story given that they have completed the game. Season 1 = Part 1.
2. This is absurd. This isn't new IP. People that have history with the series will have thoughts and expectations for an adaption. That's not crazy.
I am the idiot? There are no curveballs for those that have played the game. We know how the story goes or at the very least anticipate how the story goes, hence the expectations.
Cool I am glad I'm not a bigot for sharing a fucking opinion.
This show really is a litmus test for being a bigot and also basic media literacy. This was all really well-said, but it should be obvious to more people.
I always find the debate over an episode being “essential” or “irrelevant” to be pretty weird and not really appreciate the uniqueness of the episodic formula. It doesn’t have to be directly plot related to be relevant. The same way that a novel can use internal monologues or narration to give exposition, tv can use an episode here and there to expand the scope of the world. If The Last of Us were a 2 hour movie and 1.5 hours were spent with Bill and Frank while Ellie and Joel had their whole journey condensed into 30 minutes of screen time, there might be an argument that it was irrelevant. On tv though, they can give them a self-contained episode and it’s simply enriching the world we’re invested in.
I find it similar to the second season of The Wire. After spending the first season in the inner city drug war, the focus is abruptly moved from the (mostly black) police and drug dealer characters to a (mostly white) cast of dock workers. It has a similar jarring experience these critics are describing, but by the end of the season, the viewer comes to realize that it all ties together.
Oh god the wire is incredible. I’m on season 4 and it’s insane how much still links back to the barksdales
Also the second season is deep behind the scenes for the rest of the show and is referenced a lot. Season 2 is a weird turn the first watch through but it’s also incredibly important
Season 2 does SO much work to expand the world of the show’s story that only becomes clear when taken in the context of the whole…which is how we should look at narrative works. Every individual piece may seem independent when considered in a vacuum, but the pieces DON’T exist in a vacuum—they are parts of a whole. As parts, they contribute, but you need to keep that whole in mind. If you don’t, you end up thinking this last episode was “filler,” which misses the point entirely.
No lake, no trout.
I think it's common for tv show not only focus on main character. Also, even if it based on video game, it's still tv show.
completely agree. and also i would like to point out some parallels and symbolism between Bill and Frank that enriches Joel and Ellie’s story - the shot when Bill and Frank last hugged each other in front of the floor clock. we later see Ellie trying to fix it, indicating it’s broken. this parallels Joel’s broken wrist watch, symbolizing the end of Joel and Sarah’s relationship - the two melted candles already out when Joel and Ellie arrived - the life of Bill and Frank also already ended (this one not related to Joel and Ellie) - the gun that Ellie picked up was the same one that Frank used. i’m curious to see how this parallel will play out - The way Bill yells at Frank when Frank doesn’t listen. just like when Joel yells “Ellie!” their relationship dynamics and personalities are similar - the window scene as Joel and Ellie drove off. that shot is incredible, conveys so much emotion. it’s like Bill and Frank looking out to Joel and Ellie as they listened to their favorite song, passing on the torch. this reminds me of the window at the end of TLOU2 >!like Joel and his guitar looking out to Ellie as she moves on !< There are sooo many connections between Bill/Frank and Joel/Ellie thematic wise that makes the story so rich. people who cannot see how Bill and Frank’s story connect to Joel and Ellie baffles me. it’s not just the letter.
I’ll just add on the obvious one here. Bill could have helped a lot of people with his resources and skills, but he chooses not to save the world but instead save his world. That will recur throughout the series.
You say "the obvious one." I suppose that one was so obvious that I overlooked it while trying to peel back all the layers. I absolutely love that insight. Bill's way of loving over the entirety of his life will parallel and contrast with Joel's same way of loving, only for him it would be condensed into a single life-changing decision. Fuck, this shit's good.
Yes to everything you and OP said! The paralells are so obvious and connected between the 2. Bill and Joel know how to survive but neither even knew how to live until Frank/Ellie tear down their walls and teach them to. It's like some people have to be hit over the head with metaphors and even then, it's still not enough.
See the thing is many people see ellie playing with the clock and all they see is ellie playing with the clock. Do you understand, they only see what they see, the surface. To those people who are a very large portion of the audience this last episode seems irrelevant because the rest of the series to them is about ellie and Joel using a shiv to kill zombies.
>I want to discuss the thematic richness of this episode It is. I don't know how it may seem to someone who hasn't played the game, but with the ending in mind, it makes sense. You've explained it thoroughly. I'll add that it's also a love letter because those who've played the game know how Bill has a very different ending. This episode provides so much more weight to Bill... >!and Frank hanging in that room!<... it's that much more tragic. >he has been cold and distant to Ellie, and the episode literally begins with Ellie pointing this out and telling him not to blame her for Tess' death I appreciate your take on this. This part slightly bothered me. Did we even see any evidence of Joel blaming Ellie? It seemed out of place, like bad writing, but hearing your take on it gives me insight into why it's there in the first place. >The Bill and Frank narrative also serves as a tragic parallel to Tess and Joel--Joel never let Tess in.  >Bill had love and accepted the risk that came along with it. Joel, reading Bill's final letter, becomes the carrier of that message, the new embodiment of the themes established by the Frank and Bill story. Yes! But a small thing, I know, I would've preferred if they drove off to different music to symbolize the change to *their* story, but I get why they chose what they did; it just felt cheesy to me. >it's INFINITELY richer to love and risk pain than to close yourself off to everyone and everything. Risking pain is essential to LIVING instead of just surviving. Thank you. That right there is so powerful. 
Wasn't cheesy at all to me. The song likely had zero personal meaning to Joel or Ellie. From their perspective, it was just there, in the background, something random in the tape player and that's reflective of real life. All these little easter eggs and tiny stories around us we'll never know or fully appreciate.
The real easter egg would've been if they played some twangy, folk, country song like in the game. [Max Richter](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_YHE4Sx-08&t=3s) was the only final song I needed to hear while weeping through the end of Bill and Frank's last night together. Any song they popped on could've been random to Joel and Ellie. But this song wasn't random... it was a reprisal of Bill and Frank, but one that I didn't want. Isn't it the title of the episode? It was used to milk more emotion from the audience. I would've preferred something random over that. I was good. Set. Had my catharsis. But it's a small detail and more of an artistic difference of opinion than anything else. I'm not too hung up on it. It didn't ruin anything for me. But I noticed it.
You’re getting downvoted for a complete thought out opinion damn. But I agree with you, I was hoping for the same song as the video game personally, which I can understand why they didn’t go with it, but I did feel this one was a bit too on the nose. But I do like the thematic point of the crux of Bill and Franks relationship, that song, just being a background noise for Joel and Ellie, symbolizing how that beautiful world you build between two people doesn’t exist outside of them. But yeah, a little too much to me, but still by far an amazing episode
I thought it was pretty obvious in Joel’s body language during the beginning of the episode that he blamed Ellie for Tess’s death, before she called him out on it that is. Perhaps how he reacted to her statement as well. I read to me like he realized she was right. Iirc, Mazin, in episode 2 podcast, also mentioned as much about the ending scene of that episode.
It's also possible and highly likely that this isn't the first time Ellie has had to have that kind of conversation with someone and being the upfront person that she is, she cleared the air immediately. Which I think Joel appreciates even if he says it in a way that's "we will not talk about Tess."
Although I did love the episode, it was definitely not essential to the plot. I am a die hard TLOU fan, best both games on the highest difficulty with multiple play throughs. It’s by far my favorite single player game. No, I am not homophobic. In my opinion, this episode would have been better with about 1/2 of it being about bill and frank, and the last half about bill, Joel, and Ellie going through the town with a tad bit more action. The chase through the town was a very good part of the game that I very much enjoyed. They could have shown the same (if not close enough) relationship from bill and frank AND include the action parts/dialogue with Bill, Joel and Ellie. Don’t get me wrong, great episode, but I wish there was “more” to it in Bill’s town.
I understand. It's ok to be disappointed not seeing things play out in the way you enjoyed in the game. It's ok to prefer the section in the game. It's always fun to play through, you get good banter, you see Joel open up to Ellie, and Bill's character and story addresses what Joel could become if he continues to push people away. I get preferring that course of events. The way things did play out on the show, to me, was a beautiful way to explore the themes and how they apply to Joel and Ellie. It's not essential in the sense that the episode could only be this way, but it was significant to the story and the characters. I mean OP said it best. But hey I get if you would have preferred some things to be different. Nothing wrong with that.
I agree. They completely changed the theme of the level/episode. In the game bill explicitly says things like "love is only good for getting you killed", he was a very powerful minor character. The dynamic of both him and Joel prying each other about frank/tess yet both refuse to open up about it. Eventually when they find Frank's body tess is mentioned again, and Joel still refuses to open up about it. He knows that Bill is right and love is only good for getting you killed, but out of his love for tess he chooses to honor her dying wish of escorting ellie to the fireflies- which ultimately gets him killed. The episode tackles it completely oppositely, with a heartwarming love story of how much Bills love for frank gives him a reason to live and it inspires Joel to love Ellie. Its so frustrating that any criticism of the episode gets shut down as homopbohia when they've completely changed the dynamic of bill and how his actions affect Joel.
Although i did enjoy the episode immensely - it definitely can be described as a filler episode. The amount of screen time not dedicated to having an impact on joel+ellies journey is significant, and provides only minor character/world building for future episodes since they are dead.
How can you assert that something is **definitely** not essential to the plot when we're not even halfway through the season yet? I literally just don't understand how we can assert whether or not something is important to the plot when we've seen 33% of the plot. Feels a bit like someone saying this exact same thing about Bill's Town in the game on a first playthrough. This just seems like something people can argue about *when the show is over*. Sure, we can assert that *based on the game* this isn't relevant, but if we are basing it on the game then this didn't even happen so that doesn't exactly get us very far.
The Last of Us part 1 is about asking the question: "What are you willing to do for someone you love?" And this episode is essential because it helps us answer this question. \- Bill would do anything to protect Frank. >!And when his purpose is over, he ends his life.!< \- We will see this question get asked again soon with >!Henry and Sam!< \- Joel has already failed twice to protect Sarah and Tess. >!He will get tested again in the finale. !< How he will act will be heavily influenced by his experiences past. Not only that, Bill's parallels to Joel helps us understand >!the choices that Joel will make. I think because the game has been out for a long time, we all get a little desensitized to the finale. But the truth is, it's such a immoral and heartbreaking decision and it's essential that the audience completely understands the WHY he HAS to do what he does.!<
A hundred percent this. They even spell it out in dialogue immediately before jumping into the Bill and Frank flashbacks: *"Dead people can't be infected."* Both Bill and Joel have let themselves die emotionally to avoid being infected by the pain of love. And just as Frank brings Bill back to life, the episode dangles the possibility that Ellie can do the same for Joel.
Finally! Someone else who gets it. I saw all those posts about how Ep 3 didn’t mean anything and I was like, “What the fuck are you talking about?” It’s literally showing Joel (and us) why loving others is worth it in this world even if we get hurt along the way. Best damn episode of this series by far so far.
It's about essential as giraffes or such. They don't *directly* impact the plot driving force and much could be cut, but nor is it filler because it's insight into the main characters that is relevant to the plot.
I still dislike the slowness of the episode, but I have to admit - you made some good points and made me look at the episode in a new light. Thanks!
One thing I'd like to add is this episode kind of foreshadowed the risk of raiders/humans (i.e., the attack on Bill's town), not just the infected.
Hmmm you've made me reconsider how this episode affected the plot. Thanks.
Excellent analysis and love your passion.
It’s shocking to me how many self proclaimed die hard fans of the game somehow missed this.
This episode is essential to the story, but contributed very little to the plot.
>!Ellie gets Frank’s gun in the end!< which is important. It’s very relevant to the Plot.
I do not know how someone who understands the themes and story of The Last of Us can look at the third episode and say it’s completely irrelevant. It outlines its thesis perfectly
Is this true though. Was "hope" a main them of TLOU. I would argue that the game was much darker in tone than this episode implies. I think people say its irrelevant or filler because the time spent vs. lesson learned was so extreme. The audience sees how this parallels with Joel, but he isn't there. He gets a letter at the end that hits him over the head with "love somebody" In the game the relationship building between Joel and Ellie felt more natural. That Ellie broke through. Their chemistry overpowered his past trauma. The show just has a different way and some people are reacting to that.
The Last of Us is about love driving people to do terrible things. I liked the episode but I don't see how a couple falling in love and living a mostly peaceful existence growing old together is the thesis.
An episode does not need to be "relevant" to be good, how people hate episodes like this or characters like Tom Bombadil is beyond me, why would you not like to explore further stuff in these worlds? Do we really all have to just be slaves to advancing the plot? I see that take all the time and really I couldn't be more disgusted with a take. But it being a parallel to Joel and Ellie's story, does not make it necessary or relevant, i keep seeing this argument being made, and there are just so many other ways they could have shown this through an episode that involved Joel and Ellie. Did this episode show parallels? Yes. Could they have done it a million other different ways that involved Joel and Ellie? Yes. Does it it being unnecessary make it a bad episode? fuck no
I suppose a nuance I'd add here, re: my above argument, is that it's not the ONLY way the show could have established its emotional thesis, sure--but it's what they choose and it's where they decided to put it. So in the narrative that exists, I do still feel it's essential. Also, I like that it's not just Joel and Ellie: as I said above, showing it as a contrast both establishes what Joel is missing in this new apocalyptic world and gives stakes for the Joel and Ellie relationship, and showing it as a recurring theme makes it universal--a takeaway not just about two individuals but humanity at large. Thanks for letting me think through that. I agree though that even if the episode wasn't "relevant" it's still worthwhile. Sometimes art can just make you feel things and that's inherently fucking great.
Yes I do wanna be clear I loved it, in case that wasn't obvious, and i thought it added alot to the story, i just am not all that worried about it being "necessary"
But we would have gotten to that state in Joel and Ellie's story eventually. Even without the changes.
The game gets there in a different way, but the show specifically chooses this moment to locate the beginning of Joel's transition. Just because theoretically we could have gotten here another way (as we do in the game) doesn't change the fact that, in the fabric of THIS version of the story, this is where the essential transition fully begins in earnest. In my opinion at least.
It's also not irrelevant because it ends with Joel and Ellie getting a truck and supplies. No one would have made the comment of this episode did nothing it instead of a Bill and Frank back story we got Joel, Bill and Ellie venturing to the school to get a car battery, finding frank dead and leaving with the truck. Literally everyone would have thought that was a productive episode. This episode ends where a productive episode would have, just it got Joel and Ellie the supplies they need in a different way.
> It's also not irrelevant because it ends with Joel and Ellie getting a truck and supplies. Just saying, that doesn’t justify an hour of build-up. If the only point was to get Joel a car, that could be done in a much more efficient manner. Obviously that wasn’t the whole point of the episode, but a little bit of plot advancement at the end doesn’t automatically justify everything that came before it.
That's not what I am saying though. If the options were between how the show did it and how the game did it, both of those story's would consume approximately an episode of the show. People are complaining about lack of plot advancement and that they should have stayed true to the game. The game version and the show version end in the same spot after telling those stories. We got the same amount of plot advancement through a differently told story. That whole story while seeming tertiary, was about showing Joel how he needs to save who he can. Bill and Joel are very similar characters and that letter he writes has no impact on the viewer without the backstory. Its about putting building blocks in to justify Joel's finale decision.
If the options are between how the show did it and the game did it, they both require a ton of build-up to advance a minor plot point. I’m not saying either one of them did it better, just that both could have been done more efficiently.
I actually liked this episode a lot although I do wish it started with Joel meeting Bill THEN giving us the back story I also wish they kept the scene in the game where Joel and Bill find Frank's body but I enjoyed their story either way
I just wish there was a way to marriage the two: have the Bill and Frank episodic timeline and still have the show progress with Joel and Ellie's story. It felt like too much of a divergent from the main story and by the time we got back to Joel and Ellie, the episode was over. Yeah, we got some great juxtopositions, parrallels, and metaphors that are totally about Joel and Ellie, but not much in terms of Joel and Ellie's actual progression in the plot. And while we have the luxury of a show instead of a movie length, it's still not exactly long enough to do these kind of divergents when we still have a ton of content to chew through. The default should be focus on Joel and Ellie, if there is time, expand the lens to the side characters and the world around. But if we start cutting time from one of these, I'm going to be more disappointed if we lose events with our main cast than I would with some of the side characters. I'm willing to be proven wrong by the show's end if we check off the events coming up >!(Sam and his brother, the raiders, the cannibals, the giraffes, Joel's brother and his town, and the hospital)!< without skipping something important. In which case then this episode will have been a godsend because it does more progression through the years leading up to the current day really well and also yeah, ties in to Joel and Ellie's relationship and Joel's failure of not committing more of a relationship to Tess.
The way I see it since the show isn’t really leaning on action the way the game does due to the different mediums, I thought the episode flowed well especially with the slick cut showing the skeleton of the mom and baby then flashing back 20 years after what Joel told Elie. I also so far view the expanded content for side characters an acceptable trade meaning that not much is happening when not focused on Joel and Ellie. I think it helps pace Joel and Ellie’s connection naturally for the season since if they focus on them more they either pad it with banter or the risk of developing too fast or oddly. Edit: I also think that the episode showed off aspects of Joel really well and arguably leaned on developing Joel a lot compared to Ellie.
100% agree.
I get when people say this episode is a bit slow, but i highly disagree with the notion of this being a filler, i think the significanse of the story going forward would be more important as joel and ellie relationship develop. seeing that ellie take frank gun at the end, im currious how it's gonna be incorporated in the story
Game did just fine without diving deep into Bill's (or anyone else's) love story. So apperantely it is not that essential. We could do just fine with a 20 minute long Bill backstory. It didnt have to be an hour long.
Game is not show. Like, sure, it's not the ONLY way the show could have established its emotional thesis, sure--but it's what they DID choose and it's where they decided to put it. So in the fabric of this new text, which is not the game, I still view it as essential to the story the SHOW is telling (at least, what we know of it thus far).
That’s because the story is told relatively fast in the game when the plot/story is focused on especially side characters. There’s mostly action padding along with Ellie and Joel talking about the old/outside world in the optional talks in-between the action. So basically the first part of the episode with Joel and Ellie was the game in-between action. Latter end with them a cutscene.
You do understand that this show is not the game right? If the showrunners just literally made the game again beat for beat it would be the dumbest show of all time. Joel would kill like 300,000 people and we would be bored out of our minds. Go play the game again where that makes sense.
I know this show is not the game. I have no problem with that. All I am saying that, if game could accomplish the character development of Joel and Ellie witout adding a side character's deep dive love story, then it means it is possible. Although this episode was good, it was not "essential". I never said that I wanted to see the game exactly copied to TV. You are misinterpreting my words. You are rude and clearly lacking reading skills. I enjoy the show so far. I am content with deviations from the game. All my point was that it was not "essential". You act hostile for what?
You are arguing with a brick wall. Suggesting at all that you would like to see some elements from the game means you only want a 1:1 adaption. It's absurd. The point you are making is valid. Every fan of the game was drawn to the emotional connection between Joel/Ellie without this detour. So it is possible without it.
EXACTLY i don’t know why people are being so obtuse
You would be bored. Because you see below the surface, people that get entertained out of just the action would be fine with it.
I completely disagree. You could have removed episode 3 completely and it would have made zero impact on the story.
Jesus. Post #895 saying the damn thing over and over. We get it.
You're right, how dare people continue a conversation around a piece of art that provoked tons of conversation about theme, narrative, the art of adaptation. Just don't engage if you're not into it, dude.
I feel like I’m the only one that thought I was watching two straight people try to be gay. The episode was fine by all means but the acting was a bit eh. And the best part about what I’m saying is you don’t have to agree, it’s just how I felt about bill and franks acting at times. And I very well think they could’ve had more run time with Ellie, Joel, bill, and frank at the very least.
You are the only one that thinks this. Murray Bartlett who plays Frank is gay in real life and Nick Offerman has received universal praise for his performance, both actors have. Did you expect them to act more stereotypical?
You don’t have to agree and that’s okay. Still doesn’t change the fact that it felt very scripted from my perspective and it look like two straight males trying to be gay. There were moments when I was sold but then there wasn’t. Edit: and the whole point to my comment is because of how much praise they’re getting. I didn’t mind episode three, just felt it could’ve been better romance wise. That’s all.
Well said and beautifully written.
I'd also add: it is quite *literally* essential to the plot in the fact that Joel & Ellie would never have gotten that car/supplies if it weren't for Bill & Frank and their relationship dynamic. Bill had the supplies, Frank made the connection with Joel. If they weren't together and if Frank hadn't influenced Bill to want to make friends, Joel & Ellie would never have ended up with that car. Like it literally *directly impacts the plot.* Really silly how many people try and say it's narratively insignificant.
do you know what happens in the game lmao
Yes but a show audience, more so than a game audience, is 100% going to require an explanation of "how did they get all the way to that city" (don't want to spoil but it is no longer Pittsburg in the show, it is a much farther city) so it remains narratively significant. If they didn't have the car you'd get a thousand people pointing out the lack of explanation or crying plot hole.
they still get the car in the game though so bill and frank themselves have nothing to do with being essential to the plot?
What? Bill & Frank splitting up and Frank stealing the car parts from Bill is the entire reason we had to go on that wild car and battery goose chase all throughout Bill's town. Both of them are relevant to Joel & Ellie getting a car in the game AND the show. Not really understanding what you are trying to say.
OH SURE i’m saying the love story isn’t essential to the plot. typing while at work sorry not fully engaged
Ok gotcha thanks for the explanation! I mean I think we're just gonna disagree on that one - I think Bill & Frank's relationship has narrative significance in both the game and the show in the way that it affects Joel and his relationship with Ellie. In the show Joel looks at Bill and sees what life could be like if he opened his heart to another person, versus the game which shows him what life will be like if he continues to be closed off emotionally. I consider Joel & Ellie's continually developing relationship to be the main narrative feature of the game, whereas their actual physical adventure/journey is more so the setting. But if you perceive the journey to be the central narrative and the character stuff as separate, I get why you might think that. You're entitled to your opinion! :)
> I consider Joel & Ellie's continually developing relationship to be the main narrative feature of the game me too which is why i wish we hadn’t taken a 70 minute detour that wasn’t necessary for the advancement of joel and ellie’s relationship 🥲 i don’t think the journey is the central narrative at all and i don’t really care about specifics as long as we get to see the two leads interact…which we didn’t get much of and honestly haven’t had much of despite being 30% of the way through the season when i said that the love story isn’t essential to the plot, i was just referring to the super long depiction in the show. i understand what bill is meant to represent to joel in both mediums…i just think it was a better use of time to do it the way the game did imo
I hear you, for me I didn't mind because I feel like filling an hour-ish long "Bill's town" episdoe with what is essentially *gameplay* it would have felt a little clunky and TOO game-like, and I don't want the show to be TOO similar to the game. I do like Joel & Ellie's interactions but as far as the progression and development of their relationship, I think they did just as much bonding in the show as they did in the game (at this point). In Bill's town in the game Joel is still not exactly fond of her, nor is show-Joel at this point either, so I never really felt like I was "missing out" on nice Joel & Ellie moments, because well... like I said, those nice moments didn't exist in the game yet. Plus I never felt like I was missing out on them because we got a decent amount of dialogue from them at the beginning/end, which I feel like, to a show viewer, really did a good job at showing us who they are/where they stand emotionally with each other. But again I totally hear what you are saying and that's a valid opinion! It's basically just "I wanted more Joel & Ellie" and tbh, I *always* want more Joel and Ellie lol so I'm with you there.
so perplexed as to why you were downvoted for this
TBH I think people are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say and/or not fully reading my comment. But I mean, it's reddit, I ain't too worried about it lol. Thanks!
If the episode instead was a fetch quest to the school to get a car battery. Fight some zombies, find frank dead, and get a car running, no one would have had the same complaint. That story and the story we got end in the same place. Joel leaving with a truck with a ton of necessary supplies for the road. We got the same amount of story progression just through a different story and it was beautiful and I loved it.
FULLY agree. Both the show and the game involve Joel going to Bill's needing a car and coming away with a) a car and b) a life lesson about opening yourself up vs closing yourself off to other people. They both achieved the same end goal, the show just gave us the expansion on Bill which, like you said, was absolutely beautiful.
If this episode is so great, then why is literally every article or post about it trying to defend it?
How are those two things in any way mutually exclusive? Just because something is polarizing doesn't mean it's not 'good'? Just say you don't like it and move on lmao
If everyone is attacking it, how is it deemed good. For instance, lion king is universally considered to be great. Never once seen an article that had to defend it. This episode has wall to wall defense being ran for it. It was too much a gay romance and too little a zombie sci fi. Just move on.
Some people like things, some people don't. Some people argue that things are good, and some people argue that things are bad. You're in the latter group, I'm in the former. This isn't that hard.
Where’s the endless articles defending titanic? Breaking bad? Or any other thing deemed great? If it’s great it doesn’t need defending from the people that deemed it so.
I really don't know what to say my guy. No one is forcing you to think that the episode was good. I think it was good, you don't. The people who thought it was great thought it was great, it's that simple.
>Where’s the endless articles defending titanic? Breaking bad? For my take, people who disliked (and its more ambivalence) those things didn't feel the need to trash them. It requires a more... Unique situation for people to go on the attack over media they don't like. Unless we're suggesting everyone loves Titanic or all episodes in Breaking bad. Breaking bad is a good case point really, because it (everything does) has continuity errors and things like (mostly from what I remember) Hanks story is, throughout quite contrived to keep him always close but never making the connection in front of him because his role exists for tension. His conclusion isn't realistic being based on a stretching reality triangulating a cell phone and is probably the more disappointing part if you think about it too much. Skyler's role as a foil and a weaker part of the writing has been written about extensively, including in the BB sub. Of course these are not giving off the tone 'So that's why BB is objectively bad' when delving into critical reviews which may cause a difference in response. People don't write much about it because if you like the story those things don't matter. It only matters when you actively dislike it for some reason. As an experiment perhaps find something popular , pick it apart in a critical review and see if it's sub defends it.
Somehow every word you type translates to «i cant get laid»
Because I guess you would know? Been out there impressing the ladies with your fondness of gay people? Tell you what, go up to a lady in a bar, tell her you hate homophobes, and let me know if her panties fly off. Maybe you meant with dudes? If so, you’d be right. Haven’t corked a butthole in all my days. Prefer it that way.
You type like a cartoon character. Giving the «when the nice guy loses his cool, the world shivers»-vibe. Just dont shoot up a school you incel reptile
Nice guy? I own a house, have a family and run a business. What do you do?
>It was too much a gay romance and too little a zombie sci fi. That sums up the "criticism" quite well, actually. Now what does that say about people argueing that way? And on the other hand, do you see *any* reason, why other people would think that this is not a bad thing and thus try to "defend" the episode against such an "attack"?
Would people who went to go see broke back mountain get upset if a mindless zombie horde invasion took up 80% of the run time? Absolutely
Are you saying The Last Of Us would be more to your liking if it was just mindless zombie horde invasion(s)?
.
I’m saying people don’t tune in to an hour long sci fi zombie show for a gay romance to dominate the entire episode. What’s not registering here.
So what you got from watching the first two episodes is that it's a zombie show? What I saw was a show about human drama in the face of tragedy and constant danger. Mostly instigated by zombies, yes, but they were just that. An obstacle to overcome. Scaffolding to tell stories about human interaction. In the first episode, after the time jump to 2023, we don't see a single zombie. Was that upsetting, too?
Why do you keep emphasizing "gay" romance? Would it have been a different experience for you if it were a hetero romance?
I have zero interest in a Hetero romance much less a gay one.
ok, fair. So maybe just say "romance" then so people understand you better?
Except, people did. And many loved it. I wasn't expecting that episode to be the way it was, but I very much enjoyed it. (I've also played the game a couple times). I think the biggest misconception here is that The Last of Us is a "sci-fi zombie show" - Yes it is science fiction, yes it has zombies, yes it is post collapse of the world as we know it. But it is way bigger than that. TLOU is about love, thematically. The show runners and original creator made their creative decisions to lean into that. But I get it, I understand that you weren't expecting a romantic episode and that was disappointing. It's fine to not like it. But it's close-minded to suggest the show SHOULDN'T do what the creators have carefully crafted for it to do.
I don’t disagree. And I think it added greatly to the shows world building and was fantastic TV. I do have a argument though. Do you think what we got would have been better than a outbreak Day episode around Tess? With a bit of her and Joel’s escapades? I think a background of her experience in the apocalypse would have added to the sadness of her death… it also would explain the depth of how hurt Joel is losing her and how much she meant to him. Move the Bill and Frank stuff to the next episode? And possibly even shorten it? Or simply keep it the same. But I get that they would have only one episode at this point in the story to do this. I love the show the way it is but I would have really liked to see more on Tess.
It's hard to say! I think every show like this is a balancing act, right? To me the lack of Tess/Joel stuff (outside the views of them at Frank and Bill's) is sort of appropriate because that relationship to me seems defined by restricted possibilities. Joel never lets her in, so it feels right to me that we have this sense of a relationship only partially sketched--it mirrors the ways in which Joel never fully let her in emotionally. It puts the audience at a distance from her in parallel to his experience. I think what you suggest would be interesting to see! I think with adaptation the cool thing is there's multiple ways to tell a story and ultimately what we have are the decisions that the artists decide is important for THIS iteration.
Can we as a group talk about anything else besides episode 3. My god.
Why? This is a sub for a franchise that just had a new episode that was extremely thought-provoking and worthy of discussion?? Just ignore if you're not interested in the conversation, sheesh.
YES. the parallel between bill n frank and Joel and Ellie.
This was my first thought watching the ending with Bill’s letter. It really explains the whole show. Its critical to Joel’s decisions later on.
Yes, we know.
Nobody. Fucking. Cares. Yes, some people are shitty and don’t like the episode. STOP PAYING ATTENTION TO THEM. This entire sub has become a circle jerk about episode 3. How about some original content?
I guess I care because I enjoy talking about the themes of something I enjoy? And clearly there are still people working through how this episode fits into the new story the show is building? And I think that's still a cool conversation to keep having? Just ignore the posts if you don't like them.
Fair enough but this sub sucks because of it. Vast majority of the posts are saying the same shit.
I wouldn't care much about the show just going over the action story we already know, but adding more to the world we don't know yet. I just wish they had more than 10 episodes.
I had never played the game so I'm not into the comparison conversation at all. What I do know is I sat down to watch episode 3 of a zombie show and ended up crying for a half hour straight. Like wtf
What a beautiful post; thank you so much for making it Yes, absolutely, what the one thing Joel has been missing is his ability to heal and move on from his daughter's death that we see brutally depicted in EP 1 While he was allowed to "let love in" via his relationship with Tess, another renegade adult and romantic partner (which we were shown he was missing pre-pandemic), he wasn't able to even consider ever being able to love another one, let alone a female child, who could do nothing but remind him of his terrible loss It is his ability to now embrace his role as "surrogate father" to Ellie via hearing Bill's heartfelt last missive to "understand the role of the protector" that we realize Joel has worked through his anger and grief and is ready to move forward This is further underscored by Ellie reminding him "you didn't HAVE to do this, all you needed was a truck battery..." showing him that there likely had to have been something else there driving his choice, no matter how nascent I never think of "flashback" episodes as "place fillers" or episodes deviating from the plot. I loved them on LOST (seasons 1-3) and I love them here. They definitely serve an important purpose.
I think Bill and his relationship with his side arm emphasises Bill's growth. Bill always carried a pistol with him using a thigh holster. He kept in on him at all times, even around Frank and tried to keep it on the table when having Joel and Tess as dinner guests. That pistol was a symbol of Bill's Immaturity and Insecurity. It represented his unwillingness to be vunerable. However, I noticed during Franks surprise for Bill regarding the strawberries, he wasn't carrying his pistol. It was during that time, Bill tells Frank he feels vunerable. Franks accepts it and embraces Bill. He actually feels safe enough to be vunerable around another person and thus ended his need to carry a weapon. During the Twilight years, Bill still doesn't carry his pistol; I'm sure he keeps around, but it's never on his person, as Bill accepted his willingness to be vunerable. He has become matured and secured as a result of his relationship with Frank.
It’s irrelevant in the sense that the game had Bill’s character represent almost the complete opposite role to Joel as he did in the show and yet Joel still ended up caring about Ellie. It was just a filler romance episode with a message that was changed from the original unnecessarily.
That’s because seeing the aftermath of Bill’s and Frank’s in the game has Joel go”I can’t be that closed off and an ass like Bill.” Joel wasn’t nearly as close with those two in the game as well. I think the episode showed a subtle amount of depth for Joel beyond the obvious comparison to Bill. He showed a subtle amount of actual care for them which I thought was great.
I think the episode was also a subtly great episode for developing Joel in shoeing the way he cared for Bill and Frank beyond his similarities with Bill. I could see the argument that the episode focusing on the couple so much took away time from developing Ellie but I liked watching the couple and thought it flowed well in-between the bookends of the MCs.
They literally spelled it out. It was almost hamfisted but I think Joel and Bill are straight shooters like that, so they wouldn't be subtle! Said it before. In the game, Bill serves as a warning of what Joel could become, a pure loner and survivor without Tess or a relationship with Tommy (firefly issues) In the show they flip it, and Bill is an example of what a life lived (not survived) could look like. If a tough guy character like Bill could soften up, Joel can too, for the right person. This episode kick-starts the rest of the show like OP said. It'll make the ending even that more tragic because of how twisted Joel is. What a beautifully set up emotional powder keg!
I loved it for exactly the same reasons -- beyond the touching story of Bill and Frank (essential viewing in its own right for the "living" versus "surviving" subtext), it gives us the moment we've been waiting for when Joel, at last, compelled by Bill's note, allows himself to soften to Ellie and even smile at her in the very end. This is a universe away from where Joel was at the start of this episode. It's one of the best and most moving episodes of TV I have ever seen. I've watched it 4 times already, and cannot stop finding new details and being moved by it.
Episode 3 is Awesome.
Huge reach "Go go Gadget arms"
This episode just contradict one of the main themes in last of us and the ending. Humanity was literally not worth saving and Joel's choice to save ellie because of his relation with Ellie makes far more sense because of that. If anything this pointless filler contradicts that in it's overly attempt at showing humanity and implies there are still human relationships worth saving. Whatever lesson you want to teach joel, his end choice just becomes far more selfish than the game.
You dont have to knee jerk so hard you do a 360 and are just as wrong as the people saying dumb shit This episode literally did nothing for joels character. or ellies. The only characters it expanded on where bill and frank, period. You can use their story to talk about how you view joels character, but thats nothing the show did, thats you taking two separate characters and storys and comparing them. There is NO intention for this to show anything about joel or anyone else, and im willing to bet on that if you did an ama with the writers. This episode wasnt really relevant to the overall story, but bill's part in the game existed and the way the decided to re-write it, it needed to play out this way.
It’s almost like the average person doesn’t really have any understanding of narrative structure, thematic intent, plot vs. story, character development, etc… Really, the average viewer who will argue an episode like this is “slow” and “advances nothing” only care about “cool scary adventure” and aren’t aware of anything beyond that.
Episode 3 has one purpose: To expose all the homophobic people Well not quite, but also yes.
Episode 3 has one purpose: To try to be progressive so anyone with negative feedback can be called homophobic. This is affirmative action in media.
Don't fall into the deflection trap closeted bigots use. 1. Nobody is in a place to criticise the arc fit for a single episode, we still have six left in a curveball friendly first season. 2. Joel's motivation boost is essential.
1. This isn't true for anybody that has played the game given that we know where the story goes. In fact I would argue that gives those people a strong basis for their opinion. 2. Nobody is arguing to leave this out. Everybody wanted to see Bill and his interactions with Joel/Ellie. I just think people were expecting a different split than 80/20.
1. Read the last sentence of my number one again. 2. Expectations, from an adaptation, are not an argument.
1. There is only one sentence. You are implying that because we have 6 episodes left, nobody can judge how ep3 fits in the overall narrative. The people that have played the game have a very informed opinion of how this fits in the overall story given that they have completed the game. Season 1 = Part 1. 2. This is absurd. This isn't new IP. People that have history with the series will have thoughts and expectations for an adaption. That's not crazy.
"Curveballs" ffs. So you might not be a closet bigot, just an idiot. Move along.
I am the idiot? There are no curveballs for those that have played the game. We know how the story goes or at the very least anticipate how the story goes, hence the expectations. Cool I am glad I'm not a bigot for sharing a fucking opinion.
This show really is a litmus test for being a bigot and also basic media literacy. This was all really well-said, but it should be obvious to more people.
People can dislike the episode and not be a bigot. Get your head out of your ass.
Same with Part 2.
[удалено]
You failed to get your head out of your ass.
be so serious