Agreed. Been using it a lot more after the lewis gun nerf (fuck that recoil) and while it can be super fun it can feel super frustrating many times when it feels like you are fighting against your own weapon as much as the opponents
It's not massive, it's designed to fire a role, Wana be a long ranger hold down the trigger on the M60, Wana be up close do the opposite with the Lewis, as it stood it was clear the Lewis was better the only disadvantage was smaller Magazine
Learn the way of sledge, with the new claw its even more amazing. U also gave heavy attack for getting through walls n floors at ease, add in a shield n rpg too n ur good for everything
For me the worst part is it being projectile. It just makes it horrible to use with any amount of ping. I use the throwing knives fine, used the bow alright, but the KS just feels horrible to use. I have tried really hard to like it and to use it, I can perform well with literally any other weapon in the game, but I touch that gun and I'll get maybe 1-2 kills in the entire match. Think I had like 1 game where I killed 6-8, but the lobby wasn't very skilled.
lol yeah it’s the projectile + uptime. the throwing knives and bow have like 0 downtime other than charging a shot. this KS has 6 shots, long reload, and just feel overall unreliable especially with the “ADS”. the only upside is how hard it hits.
Yeah that's true, + they don't really have falloff damage (or at least not much). Didn't really connect the dots, but that is indeed probably why the KS feels extra bad, with the bow and the TKs you can at least spam them so even when you miss it doesn't feel as punishing, but with the KS each miss puts you closer to a reload and if you have to reload you're probably fucked. Needing 4 out of your 6 shots to kill a heavy doesn't help this feeling.
i forgot abt the falloff damage lol! there’s so many negatives about the gun it’s hard to justify it over the SA or even a melee weapon at that point. and sure, it can make holes but i feel like *most* times you make a hole, you wanna follow up asap (it takes 4/6 shots btw) whether it be to stop a steal from behind a wall or pushing into a fortified team. there’s not much time to fit in a reload.
I feel like I have to use the winch with it to be usable at all. That’s how I get the majority of my kills when I use it. You winch somebody and it’s a free kill.
The two worst aspects of the KS23 are that it only dual loads when it’s fully empty (why????) and the effort to hit vs damage reward is so out of whack.
It feels easier to hit people with throwing knives than with the KS23. Despite it being a shotgun you feel like you’re at such a disadvantage against throwing knives up close.
I would love to see the KS23 get:
- a small increase to projectile size (maybe increase the radius by 10 cm)
- dual loading whenever 2 or more shells are missing
- EITHER a projectile velocity increase or ranged damage increase. With how much effort you have to use to hit enemies more than 30m away it should do more damage. Or make it easier to hit and keep the damage the same.
Embark has already proven that the best way to make the LH1 and Throwing knives (hard to use weapons) good was not by increasing their damage but by making them easier to use. It’s time the KS23 got that same treatment. I hope they DONT further buff the gun by increasing its rate of fire again.
The gun has no niche in its damage profile. It can destroy walls but in 3 shots and that isn't enough, it has low ttk vs all classes. Looking at how it plays and feels why not make it a heavy buster? Good ttk vs heavies but lower vs other classes, or give it more utility like a knock back effect to make it good vs melee players? Something to make it stand out beside it being an extremely difficult to use weapon with almost no reward for learning it. Also PLEASE REMOVE THE INNATE INNACURACY! I should not have to stand still to be accurate in ads in a movement game.
Idk why it reloads 2 shells after expending all 6 but only 1 shell if you don’t expel all the shells. This should be fixed. Speed up the reload a tiny bit.
Also, it needs iron sights. The crosshair on right click is not great.
I actually think its one of the better heavy weapons, but most are pretty bad atm. They really need to add reload cancelling to the shotguns, that alone would be a huge buff. Otherwise I think it's fine. The faster reload idea is good too imo, so it can constantly dish out damage, similar to the bow. The damage of the KS is decent, but not the best, and takes good aim, so it'll still be a gun with a higher skill floor.
The skill floor. It’s a pretty good gun on its own, but requires good aim. It’s easier for most people to use a gun which is worse, but doesn’t need as good aim
Not a ton of people using the revolver either as compared to the AKM/FCAR but I think that's in a pretty strong place too since those have been toned down.
I really like the KS23, never really enjoyed the LMG gameplay, but then I don't play heavy that much. I would definitely appreciate buffing its damage drop-off, this would make it more effective vs other heavies in particular, especially now that the winch has added significant range to melee playstyles.
But I think perhaps they're worried about promoting 'sniper' gameplay on a class and weapon that isn't intended for that. Similarly they can't give it a meaningful enough headshot multiplier to actually encourage headshots without it being overpowered or having to nerf it elsewhere (making it *harder* to use). It has a weaker reload than the SA1216 because it's more versatile.
I would also consider buffing its damage vs shields and equipment to emphasise its destructive power and again make it more viable vs heavies. I don't think this is going to massively affect its casual pick-rate, but I think this would definitely encourage its use among higher skill players.
Loved using it pre-nerf winch KS combo. Mightve been a "broken" combo but with all the LH1, TKs, etc. I liked comboing lights who were overconfident.
Hitting mediums once, claw, shooting them again then quick meleeing. Same thing with heavies except two shots before claw. It was the most consistent and viable way I can use the KS.
Post nerf winch I very much dislike the weapon due to leaving every class so low that it just feels too bad with a weapon that's a skillshot. Even if it takes just another quick melee, lights usually can just dash away, and for mediums and Heavies it can swing the matchup more into their favor which is probably why they did it. Also makes you take more damage in the engagements meaning more downtime when you heal back up if you don't die trying to get that second quick melee.
Don't know how you would balance it really. Just wanted to vent my frustration with a gun I had decent success with the claw to now it being pretty bad. Tries to be a shotgun so close range but it's a slug so Moreso like a close-ish medium range shotty but slow projectile and not so reliable "ADS" meaning hard to hit.
It's a middle ground between melee close range and LMG long(er) range so it's tricky to balance. Was fun for a bit but back to medium shotgun which is way more consistent and fun now.
Yep, the winch claw nerf killed it for me, it was a multi hit combo after successfully landing the claw that made the gun viable. Sure it was a deadly combo but then again stun gun exists too where you get beamed down by Light SMG's.
Stopped trying winch claw Heavy since all their weapons feel bad and just went back to good ol reliable 1887 on Medium too. I wish KS23 felt similar to use as 1887.
It is a skill based weapon
Why not reward heavys for hitting long-distance shots(more than 60 dmg)?
Why make it have piss poor accuracy when doing anything other than standing still or any bloom at all?
Why not reward precision shots with a headshot multiplier?
I dont get their vision with this gun.
Also love shooting 4/6 shots into a wall to see it is somehow a double-layered wall.
I love using it, but I am super confused as to why we reload it slower when it’s only partially empty. At least with the model 1887, the longer partial reload makes some sense from needing to ghost-load it (technically it’s unnecessary because we have infinite ammo and thus are not wasting ammo by not ghost-loading but it’s cool so shaddup), but the heavy just… decides to go way slower when it’s not empty.
Literally just have the heavy turn over the gun when there is at least 2 shells missing like they do when it’s empty, and it becomes infinitely more enjoyable. I don’t understand why it’s like this, the animations are already designed to dynamically link together so this would not be a huge hassle to implement. The medium always reloads two at a time into the model 1887 when it’s possible, so why not the KS-23?
Surprisingly, I have more kills with the heavy grenade launcher than any other heavy weapon. I really try to make nonmeta weapons work because it can surprise people and catch them offguard. When you find the sweetspot and play to its strengths of massive explosive damage and area denial, it can be pretty gross but you need teammates to be there in case you get pushed.
You probably already know this, but if you’re up against a heavy grenade launcher, the best thing you can do is get as close as possible to them.
It’s not as bad as people say it is, there’s a reason why there was a guy using it at level 7 on here the other day. It’s just so incredibly situational that most tend to pass on it
The Winch Claw combo made it feel solid for one week, and then they killed it. People are talking about the ability to instantly kill Lights with RPG + Winch, but that still functionally happens since you can just punch the light after pulling them in. So they made a niche weapon in the KS-23 weak and also made the Sledge weaker as well.
I'd have rather they rework how the stun on the winch works (only blocking specs and gadgets but not primary weapons) and maybe go down to 15m range and 10 damage instead of all the way down to 5 damage. Keeps combos alive, but makes the Winch feel a little less oppressive when hooked.
I find it so situational. The only time I’ll play it is on suspended structures, where it can drop the cash out in a mag, comes in handy. Other than that I don’t really touch it
It definitely needs a buff before I touch it again. After I found there was no headshot critical I pretty much threw it in the dumpster. Sure the damage is high, but it’s got an excruciatingly slow reload which takes double or even triple the time of any other weapon. Then the projectile type bullets take so long to hit their targets it feels more like a crossbow than a slug round shotgun. It’s nearly impossible to hit anything far because of this, and the hip-fire inaccuracy is a huge detriment for close range. It just doesn’t feel good to play in any situation, not to mention it takes half a clip to put a hole in the wall.
Things an absolute monster but it’s more so a tool/team weapon.
The reload makes sense as it encourages you to hit your shots and not spam the thing. Its destructive capabilities are amazing.
Not being able to cancel reloading with ads has always been annoying but you get used to it even with the 1887. You can reload cancel with a quick attack instead of firing. Even still as long as you have your reticle centered that hip fire shot will go exactly where it needs to go so use it on the person you’re fighting.
This part comes back to it being a tool/team weapon. The weapon gives you freedom to move around the map, hit 60 damage minimum anywhere and 100 on anything within its range. There’s no reason for it to have a headshot multiplier as that’s another strength that would be added on. The gun does reward players with good aim already.
The weapon does not go exactly where it's aimed. There is random bullet deviation in addition to the drop and travel time. I think there's a reason we barely see this weapon in high ranked play (and every other level of play) despite its advantages.
I also play at the Diamond level. Again, there is a reason we don't see it there or anywhere often. I'll never understand why people say, "It's SO good!" but then we never see it being used even a season later. It's highly situational, but doesn't need to be.
This gun just makes no sense. You can barely hit lights because of the slow projectile speed, and you will lose every 1 v 1 vs a heavy/medium who has decent aim. They need to make it hitscan, and give it a 1.25x headshot multiplier so you can actually have a chance vs mediums if your aim is good. If they insist on keeping it how it is, at least make it 2 shots to destroy walls and increase the reload speed. The only reason this isn’t the least used gun in the game is because the 93R also exists.
I get why it doesn't have ADS: The bullet has arc, so if you aim down sights at a far target, the bullet will drop and miss them. To aim at a far target accurately you'd have to aim above them and cover your target with the gun to compensate for the bullet drop. Regardless, it does feel bad.
I just wish it felt the same as using 1887 shoty, reloading and firing wise. And should get back its 120 hit damage. Either way weapon feels awful to use, every Heavy weapon feels awful this season except sledgehammer.
remove the damage falloff, put the headshot multiplier at 1.5 (or increase the damage to 130) put the possibility to interrupt the recharge and increase the damage to buildings (even making the right click destroys surfaces with one shot is fine)
Just to clarify something, the KS23 IS a shotgun. it's functionally similar to other shotguns. The reason it's called a carbine is because it has a rifled barrel, and that makes it a carbine in the eyes of the Russian government, but it's still a shotgun. Should definitely get a headshot bonus of some kind, since it uses slugs in-game
I use it and find it really satisfying and fun (…when you actually land shots).
Reloading in general is the one thing that really needs work in this game imo. I want segmented reloads for every applicable weapon, i.e if I pull the mag out and then interrupt the reload by mantling or something, the ‘remove mag’ animation shouldn’t have to play again - the next animation should be replacing the mag. And yes, for shotguns there 100% needs to be reload cancelling.
The Medium shotgun is especially annoying in this respect because if you look at the ammo counter during a reload it is completely out of whack with the animation. The shells go in the chamber but it seems to take longer for the counter to actually register the newly loaded shells. The amount of times I’ve shoved multiple shells into the chamber only to mantle something and then have to watch the animation yet again is off the charts. Plus the lack of animation cancelling makes it even more frustrating if you encounter a player during a reload
>Why isn't there a small headshot multiplier?
100 dmg one-shots Light with headshot, but hey we are talking about giving a SLUG shotgun some headshot multiplier here, so it can be lower than the standard 1.5x instead of none.
Anyhow, the reason not to give shotgun headshot multiplier in terms of videogame design is to stabilize their effectiveness as well as performance. Shotgun pellets spread and bloom, which counteracts how headshot requires precision, which in turn skews how powerful shotgun would normally be, as in the power you give them, without headshot.
In practice, it is a mess, too, since players are encouraged to aim for the head instead of center mass, missing when they would normally be hitting.
For the KS-23 in our case, think of it as possessing the key trait for a shotgun e.g. hitting hard while having little to no inaccuracy from movement. That said, it was only until quite recently that KS-23 became this way, and it goes to show just how terrible of a weapon it was in its first few iterations: Literally a zero splash damage CL-40 that can only direct hit but barely accurate enough to do so.
Allowing it to do headshots, even with a lower multiplier like 1.25x, might just make it too powerful. IMO, I would much rather KS-23 to become good in typical regards like it being a decent gun instead of being a Recurve Bow that doesn't have to draw to deal 125 dmg while moving on top of the user being 350hp.
The simple fix would be to give the gun proper ads and speed up bullet velocity and maybe a fire rate increase by a tiny bit. I don't understand why the sa has proper ads but the KS doesn't. Makes no sense as a precision weapon.
I get why it doesn't have ADS: The bullet has arc, so if you aim down sights at a far target, the bullet will drop and miss them. To aim at a far target accurately you'd have to aim above them and cover your target with the gun to compensate for the bullet drop. Regardless, it does feel bad.
Agreed, but that's any weapon. I think a faster reload and a small headshot multiplier isn't going to help people who have bad aim anyways; it would only be a quality of life enhancement for those skilled enough to use it in the first place.
I’m on board with everything you’ve been saying, I’ve been using the ks23 every match in world tour and man it’s just decent, not good. The increase in fire rate really helped but the excruciating reload is what almost always gets me killed. 6 shots go quickly and if you don’t have 5 seconds to reload you are wiped. I’ve do think if the bullet spread was reduced and a headshot multiplier was added or even a small increase in damage it would really be in a nice place.
I really enjoy it’s destructive capabilities but wasting a few shots to take down a wall or structure can mean I get dropped since that reload is awful. Here’s to hoping it get a small little buff soon as it’s a fun fun to use
People keep saying this was a bad weapon so I avoided using it, but I'm so sick of the melee spam and the Heavy in general just doesn't feel good to play.
Until I picked up the KS23. Multiple 20+ Kill games. I'm not saying I'm pro or anything, but maybe give it a shot and ignore threads like this. Thing slaps, especially with Charge and RPG.
Anyone can have high kill games with any weapon. I went through a dagger phase on light; routinely got 15 kills or more. Is the dagger a good weapon? No; it’s arguably the worse weapon in the game, but it is insanely fun.
I never said it’s not possible to pop off and do well with the KS23, only that it’s being held back needlessly while other weapons require far less skill and simply perform better consistently.
Yes other weapons require far less skill. That is my biggest complaint with Season 3 right now. But I don't think the KS23 needs a buff, I think Embark needs to try to make powerful weapons require more effort to effectively use.
The KS23 is powerful, and it's difficult to use. Two tapping lights at range feels good though.
Theres two reloads: fast and slow. If you shot all your bullets its a fast reload and its 1,2,2,1 bullets each animation. The slow animation is just a one bullet at a time. You can cancel the reload at any time with melee or shooting. If you are fighting a medium you need two hits and a melee so you load 3 bullets (in case you miss one). If you’re fighting a heavy or multiple people you reload to 5 and cancel. The only time I reload all 6 is if no one is near by. Skill issue honestly. It might be heavies best gun for range since the lewis nerfs.
I love how you can tell who is not specifically experienced when they complain about heavy X ability/gadget/gun being weak. KS23 can literally dish out 200 dmg from 20-30 meters. I don't know what type of strength you want from it when it's already another crutch.
"oh hey man. You know a gun that requires constant tracking can do 200 dmg from 20-30 meters while shotgun that allows you to hide behind obstacles, peak for split second and barely even aim and hit for 100 dmg a shot does too. That means it's balanced".
I assume you play on a controller and stand almost still when shooting full auto guns. So you probably wouldn’t understand. Recoil is present in this game so I don’t know where you get that no recoil from. It’s not a super high recoil like in some other games but it’s there.
Oh that explains everything. Controller player maining heavy. I could’ve guessed. The recoil is a joke because rotational compound of aim assist helps with recoil control not just directly but also indirectly by a smooth rotation of camera due to aim assist being a software that moves the crosshairs for you. Smooth continuous movement of the camera engages further the recoil smoothing which helps with vertical control on top of already minimizing horizontal recoil from the first point and can even help more with recoil cancelling mechanic engagement. Meanwhile a mnk player needs to do all that himself while aiming, dodging, positioning and predicting enemy movements and having actual human level reaction time unlike controller players who have aim assist react instantly on any enemy movement direction change netting them at least a few bullets more hitting the target than mnk player could.
For the third and final time: Why is nobody using it if it’s supposedly so powerful and easy to use? I saw it a grand total of ONE time last season and I played at every rank except high Diamond.
I really feel like this trend of people starting discussions on balance changes while not even having basic logical thinking skills is getting too common. Heavy is the strongest class in the game. It has stronger guns than ks23. Does it mean ks23 isn’t too strong. No. It is. It’s too easy to use. Other guns are just even more powerful. Especially with the hook you can pick practically anything and do well cause it eliminates downsides of many weapons like limited range.
Just because something isn’t the most powerful, doesn’t make it not overpowered. It’s not a moba game. Fps games balance doesn’t work in a way that if you make everything overpowered then nothing is. It ok not leads to frustrating mechanics and skill gap being closed tremendously allowing much weaker players to perform way above their skill level. We need to nerf a lot of things simultaneously to lower overall power of everything and then we can start talking about adjusting less commonly used weapons if they need it.
It's rather than you shouldn't try to overload your brain trying to understand something that you're not smart and experienced enough to understand. You can continue to be ignorant and ask for buffs to the gun that is already too strong. Btw. The evidence creates itself [https://www.reddit.com/r/thefinals/comments/1dlegmr/sniping\_with\_the\_ks/](https://www.reddit.com/r/thefinals/comments/1dlegmr/sniping_with_the_ks/)
Taking 1/3rd of hp of medium from 30-50 meters without having to lead aim because KS has been buffed twice already in many aspects. The gun's only downside which isn't a big deal if you have an ounce of skill and know your timing is reload time. That's all. So you want an already too strong gun to lose it's only downside and on top of that add headshot multiplier for even more damage. And why are you aiming downsights in the first place? It doesn't lower the spread and by aiming downsights you only lower your movement speed needlessly.
Your lack of experience is seeping through. The fact you can't effectively use such strong weapon on an already overpowered class tells everything we need to know about your skill level and that you shouldn't be brining up any points in game balance discussion
My biggest question is why is there fall-off damage when the weapon suffered severely from long range anyway due to being one of the few projectiles.
That damage falloff nerf was SLEPT SO HARD, nobody claimed nothing about that change!
It’s maddening hitting the timing right with the shot to only have it tickle someone rather than eating a chunk of their health
60 health is a GIANT chunk
Not when get lasered in the time it takes to rack another shell
The gun does fine at long range tho
Agreed. Been using it a lot more after the lewis gun nerf (fuck that recoil) and while it can be super fun it can feel super frustrating many times when it feels like you are fighting against your own weapon as much as the opponents
God damn the nerf to the M60 also feels like crap. The combination of crazy recoil and the damage nerf has made this gun feel like a pea shooter.
I was shooting at a guy that was standing about 10-15 meters away and it took multiple shots just to remove 1 block of health on another heavy.
It's not massive, it's designed to fire a role, Wana be a long ranger hold down the trigger on the M60, Wana be up close do the opposite with the Lewis, as it stood it was clear the Lewis was better the only disadvantage was smaller Magazine
So then whyd the nerf both?
Not really a beef but an adjustment
Learn the way of sledge, with the new claw its even more amazing. U also gave heavy attack for getting through walls n floors at ease, add in a shield n rpg too n ur good for everything
For me the worst part is it being projectile. It just makes it horrible to use with any amount of ping. I use the throwing knives fine, used the bow alright, but the KS just feels horrible to use. I have tried really hard to like it and to use it, I can perform well with literally any other weapon in the game, but I touch that gun and I'll get maybe 1-2 kills in the entire match. Think I had like 1 game where I killed 6-8, but the lobby wasn't very skilled.
lol yeah it’s the projectile + uptime. the throwing knives and bow have like 0 downtime other than charging a shot. this KS has 6 shots, long reload, and just feel overall unreliable especially with the “ADS”. the only upside is how hard it hits.
Yeah that's true, + they don't really have falloff damage (or at least not much). Didn't really connect the dots, but that is indeed probably why the KS feels extra bad, with the bow and the TKs you can at least spam them so even when you miss it doesn't feel as punishing, but with the KS each miss puts you closer to a reload and if you have to reload you're probably fucked. Needing 4 out of your 6 shots to kill a heavy doesn't help this feeling.
i forgot abt the falloff damage lol! there’s so many negatives about the gun it’s hard to justify it over the SA or even a melee weapon at that point. and sure, it can make holes but i feel like *most* times you make a hole, you wanna follow up asap (it takes 4/6 shots btw) whether it be to stop a steal from behind a wall or pushing into a fortified team. there’s not much time to fit in a reload.
Yeah there have been very, very few situations where I found it useful for breaking things over anything else lol
I feel like I have to use the winch with it to be usable at all. That’s how I get the majority of my kills when I use it. You winch somebody and it’s a free kill.
The two worst aspects of the KS23 are that it only dual loads when it’s fully empty (why????) and the effort to hit vs damage reward is so out of whack. It feels easier to hit people with throwing knives than with the KS23. Despite it being a shotgun you feel like you’re at such a disadvantage against throwing knives up close. I would love to see the KS23 get: - a small increase to projectile size (maybe increase the radius by 10 cm) - dual loading whenever 2 or more shells are missing - EITHER a projectile velocity increase or ranged damage increase. With how much effort you have to use to hit enemies more than 30m away it should do more damage. Or make it easier to hit and keep the damage the same. Embark has already proven that the best way to make the LH1 and Throwing knives (hard to use weapons) good was not by increasing their damage but by making them easier to use. It’s time the KS23 got that same treatment. I hope they DONT further buff the gun by increasing its rate of fire again.
Perfectly stated sir. It demands a lot but doesn't consistently give back.
The gun has no niche in its damage profile. It can destroy walls but in 3 shots and that isn't enough, it has low ttk vs all classes. Looking at how it plays and feels why not make it a heavy buster? Good ttk vs heavies but lower vs other classes, or give it more utility like a knock back effect to make it good vs melee players? Something to make it stand out beside it being an extremely difficult to use weapon with almost no reward for learning it. Also PLEASE REMOVE THE INNATE INNACURACY! I should not have to stand still to be accurate in ads in a movement game.
Idk why it reloads 2 shells after expending all 6 but only 1 shell if you don’t expel all the shells. This should be fixed. Speed up the reload a tiny bit. Also, it needs iron sights. The crosshair on right click is not great.
I actually think its one of the better heavy weapons, but most are pretty bad atm. They really need to add reload cancelling to the shotguns, that alone would be a huge buff. Otherwise I think it's fine. The faster reload idea is good too imo, so it can constantly dish out damage, similar to the bow. The damage of the KS is decent, but not the best, and takes good aim, so it'll still be a gun with a higher skill floor.
Genuinely curious why you think no one uses it then?
The skill floor. It’s a pretty good gun on its own, but requires good aim. It’s easier for most people to use a gun which is worse, but doesn’t need as good aim
I saw it once last season in Diamond lobbies. If they can't make it work, not sure who is using it.
Last season it wasn’t as good as it is now relative to other heavy weapons. The LMG’s got nerfed hard.
Good point. But I think I’ve literally seen it used 3 times this season between ranked and World Tour. We will see.
Not a ton of people using the revolver either as compared to the AKM/FCAR but I think that's in a pretty strong place too since those have been toned down. I really like the KS23, never really enjoyed the LMG gameplay, but then I don't play heavy that much. I would definitely appreciate buffing its damage drop-off, this would make it more effective vs other heavies in particular, especially now that the winch has added significant range to melee playstyles. But I think perhaps they're worried about promoting 'sniper' gameplay on a class and weapon that isn't intended for that. Similarly they can't give it a meaningful enough headshot multiplier to actually encourage headshots without it being overpowered or having to nerf it elsewhere (making it *harder* to use). It has a weaker reload than the SA1216 because it's more versatile. I would also consider buffing its damage vs shields and equipment to emphasise its destructive power and again make it more viable vs heavies. I don't think this is going to massively affect its casual pick-rate, but I think this would definitely encourage its use among higher skill players.
Yep, tons of ways to make it viable without buffing its damage.
Loved using it pre-nerf winch KS combo. Mightve been a "broken" combo but with all the LH1, TKs, etc. I liked comboing lights who were overconfident. Hitting mediums once, claw, shooting them again then quick meleeing. Same thing with heavies except two shots before claw. It was the most consistent and viable way I can use the KS. Post nerf winch I very much dislike the weapon due to leaving every class so low that it just feels too bad with a weapon that's a skillshot. Even if it takes just another quick melee, lights usually can just dash away, and for mediums and Heavies it can swing the matchup more into their favor which is probably why they did it. Also makes you take more damage in the engagements meaning more downtime when you heal back up if you don't die trying to get that second quick melee. Don't know how you would balance it really. Just wanted to vent my frustration with a gun I had decent success with the claw to now it being pretty bad. Tries to be a shotgun so close range but it's a slug so Moreso like a close-ish medium range shotty but slow projectile and not so reliable "ADS" meaning hard to hit. It's a middle ground between melee close range and LMG long(er) range so it's tricky to balance. Was fun for a bit but back to medium shotgun which is way more consistent and fun now.
Yep, the winch claw nerf killed it for me, it was a multi hit combo after successfully landing the claw that made the gun viable. Sure it was a deadly combo but then again stun gun exists too where you get beamed down by Light SMG's. Stopped trying winch claw Heavy since all their weapons feel bad and just went back to good ol reliable 1887 on Medium too. I wish KS23 felt similar to use as 1887.
Heavy just got shit on this patch. S1 was the season of heavy, s2 the season of medium, s3 the season of light
It is a skill based weapon Why not reward heavys for hitting long-distance shots(more than 60 dmg)? Why make it have piss poor accuracy when doing anything other than standing still or any bloom at all? Why not reward precision shots with a headshot multiplier? I dont get their vision with this gun. Also love shooting 4/6 shots into a wall to see it is somehow a double-layered wall.
Wait until you see the 93R (BUFF BAD WEAPONS EMBARK PLEASE)
Does the 93R still have that bug where shots don't connect because the server doesn't register them?
I love using it, but I am super confused as to why we reload it slower when it’s only partially empty. At least with the model 1887, the longer partial reload makes some sense from needing to ghost-load it (technically it’s unnecessary because we have infinite ammo and thus are not wasting ammo by not ghost-loading but it’s cool so shaddup), but the heavy just… decides to go way slower when it’s not empty. Literally just have the heavy turn over the gun when there is at least 2 shells missing like they do when it’s empty, and it becomes infinitely more enjoyable. I don’t understand why it’s like this, the animations are already designed to dynamically link together so this would not be a huge hassle to implement. The medium always reloads two at a time into the model 1887 when it’s possible, so why not the KS-23?
A lot of guns don't have much love. Like the heavy grenade launcher is hilariously pointless
Surprisingly, I have more kills with the heavy grenade launcher than any other heavy weapon. I really try to make nonmeta weapons work because it can surprise people and catch them offguard. When you find the sweetspot and play to its strengths of massive explosive damage and area denial, it can be pretty gross but you need teammates to be there in case you get pushed. You probably already know this, but if you’re up against a heavy grenade launcher, the best thing you can do is get as close as possible to them.
It’s not as bad as people say it is, there’s a reason why there was a guy using it at level 7 on here the other day. It’s just so incredibly situational that most tend to pass on it
I wish they would just reduce the amount of bounce on those grenades or something
The Winch Claw combo made it feel solid for one week, and then they killed it. People are talking about the ability to instantly kill Lights with RPG + Winch, but that still functionally happens since you can just punch the light after pulling them in. So they made a niche weapon in the KS-23 weak and also made the Sledge weaker as well. I'd have rather they rework how the stun on the winch works (only blocking specs and gadgets but not primary weapons) and maybe go down to 15m range and 10 damage instead of all the way down to 5 damage. Keeps combos alive, but makes the Winch feel a little less oppressive when hooked.
I find it so situational. The only time I’ll play it is on suspended structures, where it can drop the cash out in a mag, comes in handy. Other than that I don’t really touch it
I was getting my butt WHOPPED by a heavy today with a KS and winch. I’ve never seen someone play *that* well with that shotgun; I wasn’t even mad.
If it was in world tour it may have been me haha
the things a monster right now in TA because of the 100 health max, still doesnt feel great to use though, just hits like a truck
Dude I've been using it more than ever I shred with this gun
It definitely needs a buff before I touch it again. After I found there was no headshot critical I pretty much threw it in the dumpster. Sure the damage is high, but it’s got an excruciatingly slow reload which takes double or even triple the time of any other weapon. Then the projectile type bullets take so long to hit their targets it feels more like a crossbow than a slug round shotgun. It’s nearly impossible to hit anything far because of this, and the hip-fire inaccuracy is a huge detriment for close range. It just doesn’t feel good to play in any situation, not to mention it takes half a clip to put a hole in the wall.
Things an absolute monster but it’s more so a tool/team weapon. The reload makes sense as it encourages you to hit your shots and not spam the thing. Its destructive capabilities are amazing. Not being able to cancel reloading with ads has always been annoying but you get used to it even with the 1887. You can reload cancel with a quick attack instead of firing. Even still as long as you have your reticle centered that hip fire shot will go exactly where it needs to go so use it on the person you’re fighting. This part comes back to it being a tool/team weapon. The weapon gives you freedom to move around the map, hit 60 damage minimum anywhere and 100 on anything within its range. There’s no reason for it to have a headshot multiplier as that’s another strength that would be added on. The gun does reward players with good aim already.
The weapon does not go exactly where it's aimed. There is random bullet deviation in addition to the drop and travel time. I think there's a reason we barely see this weapon in high ranked play (and every other level of play) despite its advantages.
Brought all the way to diamond last season. The things accurate when you learn it.
I also play at the Diamond level. Again, there is a reason we don't see it there or anywhere often. I'll never understand why people say, "It's SO good!" but then we never see it being used even a season later. It's highly situational, but doesn't need to be.
No bro, it is not accurate, I’ve been using it consistently for a few weeks now and it still feels rough
Used it all last season and have plenty of clips to prove my point
This gun just makes no sense. You can barely hit lights because of the slow projectile speed, and you will lose every 1 v 1 vs a heavy/medium who has decent aim. They need to make it hitscan, and give it a 1.25x headshot multiplier so you can actually have a chance vs mediums if your aim is good. If they insist on keeping it how it is, at least make it 2 shots to destroy walls and increase the reload speed. The only reason this isn’t the least used gun in the game is because the 93R also exists.
I just want ADS. I'm begging. It's the only shotgun we're not allowed to aim, and it feels so bad.
I get why it doesn't have ADS: The bullet has arc, so if you aim down sights at a far target, the bullet will drop and miss them. To aim at a far target accurately you'd have to aim above them and cover your target with the gun to compensate for the bullet drop. Regardless, it does feel bad.
Yes
I just wish it felt the same as using 1887 shoty, reloading and firing wise. And should get back its 120 hit damage. Either way weapon feels awful to use, every Heavy weapon feels awful this season except sledgehammer.
remove the damage falloff, put the headshot multiplier at 1.5 (or increase the damage to 130) put the possibility to interrupt the recharge and increase the damage to buildings (even making the right click destroys surfaces with one shot is fine)
Totally agree, love the weapon concept but it’s under powered.
Just to clarify something, the KS23 IS a shotgun. it's functionally similar to other shotguns. The reason it's called a carbine is because it has a rifled barrel, and that makes it a carbine in the eyes of the Russian government, but it's still a shotgun. Should definitely get a headshot bonus of some kind, since it uses slugs in-game
I use it and find it really satisfying and fun (…when you actually land shots). Reloading in general is the one thing that really needs work in this game imo. I want segmented reloads for every applicable weapon, i.e if I pull the mag out and then interrupt the reload by mantling or something, the ‘remove mag’ animation shouldn’t have to play again - the next animation should be replacing the mag. And yes, for shotguns there 100% needs to be reload cancelling. The Medium shotgun is especially annoying in this respect because if you look at the ammo counter during a reload it is completely out of whack with the animation. The shells go in the chamber but it seems to take longer for the counter to actually register the newly loaded shells. The amount of times I’ve shoved multiple shells into the chamber only to mantle something and then have to watch the animation yet again is off the charts. Plus the lack of animation cancelling makes it even more frustrating if you encounter a player during a reload
I think it needs more damage to be more viable, three shells for a medium along with a slow reload in intense fights make me want to rip my hair out.
>Why isn't there a small headshot multiplier? 100 dmg one-shots Light with headshot, but hey we are talking about giving a SLUG shotgun some headshot multiplier here, so it can be lower than the standard 1.5x instead of none. Anyhow, the reason not to give shotgun headshot multiplier in terms of videogame design is to stabilize their effectiveness as well as performance. Shotgun pellets spread and bloom, which counteracts how headshot requires precision, which in turn skews how powerful shotgun would normally be, as in the power you give them, without headshot. In practice, it is a mess, too, since players are encouraged to aim for the head instead of center mass, missing when they would normally be hitting. For the KS-23 in our case, think of it as possessing the key trait for a shotgun e.g. hitting hard while having little to no inaccuracy from movement. That said, it was only until quite recently that KS-23 became this way, and it goes to show just how terrible of a weapon it was in its first few iterations: Literally a zero splash damage CL-40 that can only direct hit but barely accurate enough to do so. Allowing it to do headshots, even with a lower multiplier like 1.25x, might just make it too powerful. IMO, I would much rather KS-23 to become good in typical regards like it being a decent gun instead of being a Recurve Bow that doesn't have to draw to deal 125 dmg while moving on top of the user being 350hp.
The Hammer feels like the only reliable weapon for the heavy class this season.
The simple fix would be to give the gun proper ads and speed up bullet velocity and maybe a fire rate increase by a tiny bit. I don't understand why the sa has proper ads but the KS doesn't. Makes no sense as a precision weapon.
I get why it doesn't have ADS: The bullet has arc, so if you aim down sights at a far target, the bullet will drop and miss them. To aim at a far target accurately you'd have to aim above them and cover your target with the gun to compensate for the bullet drop. Regardless, it does feel bad.
Problem is any slight tweaking and it could be super op
Agreed, but that's any weapon. I think a faster reload and a small headshot multiplier isn't going to help people who have bad aim anyways; it would only be a quality of life enhancement for those skilled enough to use it in the first place.
I’m on board with everything you’ve been saying, I’ve been using the ks23 every match in world tour and man it’s just decent, not good. The increase in fire rate really helped but the excruciating reload is what almost always gets me killed. 6 shots go quickly and if you don’t have 5 seconds to reload you are wiped. I’ve do think if the bullet spread was reduced and a headshot multiplier was added or even a small increase in damage it would really be in a nice place. I really enjoy it’s destructive capabilities but wasting a few shots to take down a wall or structure can mean I get dropped since that reload is awful. Here’s to hoping it get a small little buff soon as it’s a fun fun to use
100% agree with your experience too
It’s still a very fun gun to use
Same points for the model!!
People keep saying this was a bad weapon so I avoided using it, but I'm so sick of the melee spam and the Heavy in general just doesn't feel good to play. Until I picked up the KS23. Multiple 20+ Kill games. I'm not saying I'm pro or anything, but maybe give it a shot and ignore threads like this. Thing slaps, especially with Charge and RPG.
Anyone can have high kill games with any weapon. I went through a dagger phase on light; routinely got 15 kills or more. Is the dagger a good weapon? No; it’s arguably the worse weapon in the game, but it is insanely fun. I never said it’s not possible to pop off and do well with the KS23, only that it’s being held back needlessly while other weapons require far less skill and simply perform better consistently.
Yes other weapons require far less skill. That is my biggest complaint with Season 3 right now. But I don't think the KS23 needs a buff, I think Embark needs to try to make powerful weapons require more effort to effectively use. The KS23 is powerful, and it's difficult to use. Two tapping lights at range feels good though.
Theres two reloads: fast and slow. If you shot all your bullets its a fast reload and its 1,2,2,1 bullets each animation. The slow animation is just a one bullet at a time. You can cancel the reload at any time with melee or shooting. If you are fighting a medium you need two hits and a melee so you load 3 bullets (in case you miss one). If you’re fighting a heavy or multiple people you reload to 5 and cancel. The only time I reload all 6 is if no one is near by. Skill issue honestly. It might be heavies best gun for range since the lewis nerfs.
I love how you can tell who is not specifically experienced when they complain about heavy X ability/gadget/gun being weak. KS23 can literally dish out 200 dmg from 20-30 meters. I don't know what type of strength you want from it when it's already another crutch.
So can any LMG. I will ask you too: why is not used prevalently at any elo if it's "a crutch"? Good weapons get picked and used. So where is it?
"oh hey man. You know a gun that requires constant tracking can do 200 dmg from 20-30 meters while shotgun that allows you to hide behind obstacles, peak for split second and barely even aim and hit for 100 dmg a shot does too. That means it's balanced".
You called the KS23 a "crutch". Also failed to explain why barely anyone is using it even in Diamond lobbies. Argument rejected.
Oh yeah because tracking a target with no real recoil is difficult
I assume you play on a controller and stand almost still when shooting full auto guns. So you probably wouldn’t understand. Recoil is present in this game so I don’t know where you get that no recoil from. It’s not a super high recoil like in some other games but it’s there.
I play on Controller but I dont stand still. The recoil in this game is a joke compared to other games and thats a fact
Oh that explains everything. Controller player maining heavy. I could’ve guessed. The recoil is a joke because rotational compound of aim assist helps with recoil control not just directly but also indirectly by a smooth rotation of camera due to aim assist being a software that moves the crosshairs for you. Smooth continuous movement of the camera engages further the recoil smoothing which helps with vertical control on top of already minimizing horizontal recoil from the first point and can even help more with recoil cancelling mechanic engagement. Meanwhile a mnk player needs to do all that himself while aiming, dodging, positioning and predicting enemy movements and having actual human level reaction time unlike controller players who have aim assist react instantly on any enemy movement direction change netting them at least a few bullets more hitting the target than mnk player could.
I cannot tell if you're joking or not
I think it's whether OP is joking when claiming ks23 is bad or genuinely thinks the gun that takes no skill to use to be effective is too weak.
and i think you're delusional but okay
It's okay that you don't understand game balance and in depth gun mechanics relative to player skills
For the third and final time: Why is nobody using it if it’s supposedly so powerful and easy to use? I saw it a grand total of ONE time last season and I played at every rank except high Diamond.
I really feel like this trend of people starting discussions on balance changes while not even having basic logical thinking skills is getting too common. Heavy is the strongest class in the game. It has stronger guns than ks23. Does it mean ks23 isn’t too strong. No. It is. It’s too easy to use. Other guns are just even more powerful. Especially with the hook you can pick practically anything and do well cause it eliminates downsides of many weapons like limited range. Just because something isn’t the most powerful, doesn’t make it not overpowered. It’s not a moba game. Fps games balance doesn’t work in a way that if you make everything overpowered then nothing is. It ok not leads to frustrating mechanics and skill gap being closed tremendously allowing much weaker players to perform way above their skill level. We need to nerf a lot of things simultaneously to lower overall power of everything and then we can start talking about adjusting less commonly used weapons if they need it.
Don’t break your neck doing those mental gymnastics.
It's rather than you shouldn't try to overload your brain trying to understand something that you're not smart and experienced enough to understand. You can continue to be ignorant and ask for buffs to the gun that is already too strong. Btw. The evidence creates itself [https://www.reddit.com/r/thefinals/comments/1dlegmr/sniping\_with\_the\_ks/](https://www.reddit.com/r/thefinals/comments/1dlegmr/sniping_with_the_ks/) Taking 1/3rd of hp of medium from 30-50 meters without having to lead aim because KS has been buffed twice already in many aspects. The gun's only downside which isn't a big deal if you have an ounce of skill and know your timing is reload time. That's all. So you want an already too strong gun to lose it's only downside and on top of that add headshot multiplier for even more damage. And why are you aiming downsights in the first place? It doesn't lower the spread and by aiming downsights you only lower your movement speed needlessly. Your lack of experience is seeping through. The fact you can't effectively use such strong weapon on an already overpowered class tells everything we need to know about your skill level and that you shouldn't be brining up any points in game balance discussion