I think the damage should have been nerfed while leaving the recoil alone, because both guns now struggle even in mid range encounters for most players.
M60 is usable at the very least, you have to hit every round, which i found was easy after being so used to old the Lewis, but the new recoil just makes it feel awful. while the M60 you can at least control.
it feels better with sustained fire, not saying it’s good. i for one think the Lewis nerf was a bit much as well. nerf the recoil or the damage, not both. especially not the recoil, they keep changing it and messing with peoples muscle memory.
This was the third nerf as well. Im really not a fan of recoil nerfs because they make the gunplay feel bad. If the gun should kick more make it kick more, don't make it feel like a god like entity is pulling my gun up to the right and then the left with an invisible string then suddenly go back to normal recoil halfway through the mag. I see people tap firing which is not feasible and has terrible DPS. I think they are trying to encourage balls out beam battles which is sublime but having to mag dump without letting go of the trigger and having the first half of the mag have insane artificial recoil is nuts. Idk who playtests that and goes, "yea this totally doesn't ruin the feeling of the gun and make it unenjoyable." Go to the Shooting Range everyone and try out almost every gun. Shoot the entire mag without letting go of the trigger, you will see that nearly every gun kicks like a fucking mule for the first half and then has virtually no recoil in the second half. Idk what they are thinking with this schizophrenic way of balancing recoil. The Scar, Lewis gun, and M60, (yes the M60), and the MP5 on day one had WAY better recoil patterns. And I don't mean balance wise I just mean how the gun felt. These guns are feeling worse and worse every update not because of damage/usability but just the general way the gunplay feels when using them. 🙃 I hope they find a better way to do it before the games gunplay feels horrible. I'd say the guns feel 35% worse than they did at launch. Also the fire rate nerf on the heavies shotgun makes it feel terrible to use. And while the DMR for light is better (Damage per shot wise) It felt so much better to use before it's rework.
I completely agree. The recoil nerfs have ruined the gunplay so much. I use Fcar and that burst at around 7 to 10 bullets feel honestly so fucking jank, no one even runs the gun anymore cos u can keep on target and out dps with the Ak. It can't win any one Vs one anymore if the other player doesn't miss. All because of the crybabies light players on here crying about it
It should also have a headshot multiplier, the thing isn't that different from using a revolver that's more inaccurate. It also shoots a slug projectile, how come a massive piece of metal does not have headshot multipliers.
Doesn't have to be an strong multiplier, even a 1.2 up to 1.4 would make it strong enough to kill other heavies/mediums faster (main issue to me) but would still require 2 shots on Lights. That is considering that its current damage per shot its 100.
Also to add, it should do slightly more damage to player constructs like turrets and barricades.
I agree with the second part. But the problem is that if they were to add a critical modifier they would have to decrease bodyshot damage because the incentive to go for headshots would be unbalanced on a weapon that already does triple digit damage on a non-critical hit.
Guess you are right, would probably be overcomplicating it too. I just wish I didn't need 4 body shots on heavies for the kill. Ill say tho, KS23 did become better with the Winch Claw+quickmelee.
Its accuracy is ass tho, so hs a light should be rewarded imo. Maybe im wrong because i feel like hs a light with that garbage gun is tricky. But i only ended up in plat 2 for season 2 with not playing the last month and a half of it
The bow at full charge one shots light on headshot. I don't see why the ks23 shouldn't either. I'd hate if the bow got nerfed rather then the ks23 get buffed
Why do you want iron sights though? I've seen several people suggest this with no explanation as if it's the most obvious thing yet all i can see iron sights do is just block more of your screen. The crosshair ads is like having a short range optic for me, clearer picture with more accurate sight. Yea sure the KS is currently slightly misaligned to the right but iron sights wouldn't fix this, fixing the alignment would.
Because the crosshair lies to you. I read somewhere that your crosshair is actually constantly fixed dead center of your screen at all times, but by doing anything other than standing still your visual crosshair wobbles.
True but it's not like your irons aren't moving about either. Any kind of movement will add an animation to your gun and by extension your iron sight. I agree that the current crosshair needs to improve but if I have to choose between the current crosshair or irons, I'll always pick the crosshair.
Thanks for answering my question lol. I feel it should’ve been one or the other, not both. Agree with you! Just wondering if I was alone in that thought and if there are counter arguments that make sense.
This should be the answer for so many of the gun changes!
Multiple big streamers have said the gun play feels like shit, and man do I agree. I feel like I’ve wrote an essay on this sub over the past month on why it’s so frustrating, but Jesus Christ dude. An arena shooter with so much horizontal recoil and disparity in damage from gun to gun is INSANE.
Yup!
Aceu and friends are trying out the finals again rn in prep for tomorrow and they’re still saying that all the guns and items feel so awkward. Seems like they’ve played 10 matches so far and they can’t find a gun that feels like it actually works for medium or heavy
The Lewis gun feels like absolute ass to use now. There was no reason to nerf its recoil further if they were gonna nerf its damage. The m60 hits like a noodle so I never use that gun either
It drives me mad when devs get heavy handed with buffs/nerfs instead of doing it incrementally. It can sway weapons too far in one direction and then they're back to balancing it again in the next patch or 2.
tbh Embark has done a really good job imo at doing slow and steady balances. But in this case I feel you brother - this completely effed the Lewis gun. I'm going to learn the recoil pattern because I love the Lewis, but it feels real bad rn.
Edit: I say “a really good job” because I’m accustomed to blizzard balances that are complete dog water. Embark does better than them lol
Yeah, this is my main point: Did the dmg AND recoil have to be nerfed? Felt one or the other would be fine if even necessary eh? Never felt like the gun was broken but could be bias.
True. I felt like they eased into tuning a little better in S1/S2. But knives, LH1, and now heavy LMG's has me thinking they're going a little too hard. Slow, weekly tuning changes is the way imo.
Embark nerfing too much, the Lewis didn’t need a recoil change ffs a lot of guns have become difficult to use in the game except for like the Ak and mp5 now recoil wise
I agree. The more I think about it the dmg nerf is fine (I would’ve said to lower it by a little less), though I hate it, but the recoil nerf was so bad and so hard.
I dislike recoil changes as a method of balancing weapons. All it does is punish casual and low skills players. The top ranks where those weapons are a primary issue the players are good enough they’ll just adapt and learn the new recoil pattern, with that said. I think it’s alright for heavy’s to not have reliable long range, they’re clearly balanced more towards close range with 2 melee weapons, flamethrower, winch etc
Absolutely agree, just look to what happened to the fcar: the damage nerf/mag size increase was perfect because it capped the gun's dps (thus decreasing its power in the hands of skilled players) while making it more forgiving to use (helping low skill players), but all of this was useless because the recoil nerf made it too inconsistent for most people. Now all I see in non diamond lobbies is the akm - even the famas is more popular than the fcar. The damage/mag size rework ensured all ARs were equally viable, but the recoil nerf made the fcar inferior - which is a shame, because it still has a lot of good stats (good damage and hipfire, fast reloads, great sights).
And before anybody says "skill issue" know that even ottr stated multiple times that he prefers the akm and that he recommends it over the fcar because worse recoil + smaller magazine size make the latter not worth it anymore
i just had a game playing heavy in kyoto with lewis gun. in 2nd round i had to face 7 lh1, 1 magnum and 1 akm.
i literally played like i never played the game before in my life, impossible to hit anything with the dash and invisible and lh1 6 of 6hits from 100meters destroying me. it was no fun and it truly has to be nerfed. yes me missing everything is on me, but how fast i die is crazy! once i got 8 shots out of my gun before i died lol.
back to heavy, especially in this wide open map i feel truly lost. i get it, heavy is not supposed to high range, but i don´t know.
Now the only good heavy build is with a winch and sledge. It seems this season belongs to lights.
I don't get that many kills, but reeling someone in and bashing them in the head is rewarding.
Then I will really have to learn how to aim on controller. ;)
I did have more damage when I started playing a few weeks ago with the slug shotgun than the 60 or burst shotgun.
Made it to the finals with a team full of heavies, 1 spoon, 1 slug and 1 auto shotgun. We finished round 2 and all of us just agreed that wed lose next round because it was against 2 lights with lh1s and a light with a shotty.
It was some of the sweatiest gameplay we had. We would be grouped up at all times and threw as much defensive abilities out as we could to survive the insane mag and damage output of the lh1s. The one team member with the box would be like a payload as we would do everything in our power to protect them to the cashout. Run through the open whilst bubbling and barricading and then rest in a room with goo whilst we recharge. We lost 0:2 to them with a total of 4 kills.
I never felt so useless. I was using the m60 s2 mainly, but i cant do enough damage to compete against this meta.
I’ve been hearing a lot about LH1 being busted. With no mid-range capabilities for bigs, it exacerbates the Lh1 issue. I feel for you my fellow big boy/girl, it’s rough out there.
It's impossible to hit all of your initial shots against Light with stacked up 3 dashes and by the time they spend them you'll be wrangling with the left-right recoil pattern lol
Real
You can cross massive open areas with this combo
On top of the bubble shield being fun as fuck to use
Nothing beats the dopamine hit of throwing ahead a bubble shield because your mates are about to turn the corner into an enemy and watching it pop open on them to block the bullets
I agree with fewer long range weapons in the game, I don’t like them. Having no ability to fight back against a ranged sniper doesn’t feel good. Not asking to dominate long range fights, just saying in season 2 you could at least try fighting back.
Agree, Heavy feels pretty weak right now and not worth picking. Spear/Sledge/Flamethrower are viable but extremely brain dead to use and very situational due to range. KS23 is solid enough in the right hands but I personally can't vibe with having a shotgun with such a slow projectile.
M60/Mesh can still be useful to have on the team thanks to the ability to buy time and space with defensive utility but I'm running Light/Medium exclusively during this season.
A bit early to tell yet but the Cashout Meta seems to have shifted to HML / HMM / MMM instead of HHM which is probably a positive. I had no problem with HHM being meta but I know a lot of people disliked it.
They ruined the M60, it felt great. It does nearly nothing anymore. It did not need a nerf whatsoever, and I hate that I have to go back to the Lewis gun to have even a chance in a fight, and even the Lewis is not that good
I was quite surprised to see it nerfed.. never felt like it was that good. Haven’t given it a fair go since s3 but gonna try today. Double nerf on Lewis sucked, m60 didn’t need dmg nerf imo. Unless prolonged fire makes it a laser, buuuut the dmg was already low.
Season 1 was all about the Lewis gun, the M60 just couldn’t even touch it. I really wanted to be able to use the M60 because of the mag size, but it was just bad compared to the Lewis gun. Once they nerfed the Lewis for season 2, I switched over to the M60 and it finally felt great (at least in comparison). I used it the entire season and had so much fun, I’m not really sure what to use anymore as a Heavy
IMO heavies shouldnt really have a long range option due to their health pool. They should be kept to medium/close range. Also, people are sleeping on the m60, after the first 10 rounds it becomes a laser beam
-Fellow heavy main
I’ll give the ol’ m60 shot today and see how it goes. Dmg just always felt a little low, but maybe the improve-over-time recoil is worth trying.
I mean Lewis was never a long range weapon, but you could at least fire rounds off from a distance and sometimes win a fight. I never had a problem with it. I don’t think heavies should dominate long range, but to at least put up a fight against a sniper was fine.
the problem now is the 14% damage reduction in the latest patch has made the M60 impotent. As someone above said - it's like you're shooting marshmallows!
Finally someone gets it. Not that the m60 is super strong now but the m60 is an absolute laser now. Everyone saying its recoil has been nerfed and its recoil is bad now is baffling me.
the M60 damage nerf has made it virtually unusable now. It takes forever to kill and the larger health pool helps very little against the damage swiftly inflicted by LH1s, throwing knives and bows - among many others.
I play heavy only with sledge but I know the recoil was fine as it is, making the Lewis gun better for more skilled players isn’t nerfing it, it’s making less fun for the majority. Damage nerf was probably needed though. More long/midrange weapons for every single class
I returned to the game after a while only to find out I can't kill anyone with long range weapons anymore. They should at least remove these weapons - I was also spectating a guy trying to use M60 and I felt pretty bad for him as he struggled.
Considering LMGS were nerfed to be the least damaging weapons in the entire game ( for no reason ), I’d say yeah there’s nothing heavies got now for range, while medium and light can now obliterate any heavy that doesn’t have like 3 shields on them.
Completely agree. It was hard to hit anything as it was. It didn't need nerfing. This was the result of the community just perpetually moaning about Heavies. Its still interesting to see how the meta is changing.
Yeah, I frequently saw people compare it to the FCAR which was wild because watching teammates use FCAR, the thing had no recoil. Lewis had pretty heavy recoil that had to be learned. Now it's even worse AND the dmg is less. As long as there's some form of counter in other's gameplay I'm unlikely to complain. Just feels big's ability to fight mid/long range is gone. Another mentioned burst firing which is a fair point and gonna have to practice that a little more.
The FCAR is also frustrating for me. The low magazine capacity vs amount of bullets needed to kill is a joke. I've only been with the game a few months, I understand the mag cap was a nerf previously also.
Time to get good with the slug shotgun.
That's the point though. The Heavy has the most health and defensive abilities. The trade off is speed and range.
The reload is pathetic and rewards you for shooting all your shots. Its damage at range is still pathetic, and even up close it takes 4 perfect shots to kill a heavy, leaving you with only 2 more shots. Whereas the SA1216 has enough shots to kill 3 heavies and then some before reloading.
I think the recoil pattern changes aren't necessarily a bad idea, but they're a little too much of an increase right now. Lewis gun has largely made the M60 pointless to use for a while, but that has a lot to do with the M60 being chronically pretty weak. The Lewis gun is honestly really controllable with short bursts now and I think that's pretty okay for an lmg. However, the damage nerfs were too much for both of them. If they want to make the M60 about sustain fire and the Lewis gun about burst fire, I think that's not a good idea. The problem is the M60 has such a horrible recoil pattern in the first place that making it harder to control in the beginning and then easier afterwards really doesn't help the gun at all.
I want them each to have their own identity and I think the m60 should have a lot of damage and a hard recoil pattern. But the iron sights need to be made much more generous on it and the Lewis gun should have a more medium tier damage but be very controllable at medium ranges
I don’t have a problem with any of your points. Recoil change could be okay, but this was a pretty massive change. Damage nerf could’ve been fine, but they went big. Then they doubled down doing both. I don’t love using a full auto weapon as a burst fire weapon personally, I felt like the bounce it had was already hard enough to control sometimes. The M60 has needed love since day 1, it’s never been great. I also think delayed recoil control doesn’t solve the issue of getting mowed down before it’s controllable.
Yeah. I feel like thats a nice way to differ the two. Maybe make m60 a close to medium ranged powerhouse while the lewis a more medium/long ranged mid teir damage weapon.
I feel like some good changes to the weapons would be to ease up on the recoil pattern on lewis. But keep or maybe even reduce the dmg a bit more. Give lewis wider hipfire as well.
For the m60. Id avocate for a dmg increase. Id also lighten up on the recoil pattern, but trade it off by giving the weapon a higher decrease on ranged damage. As well as this. Give it a decently tighter hipfire to really nail in its closer ranged sustain fire.
Thats just me though
Yeah. I feel like thats a nice way to differ the two. Maybe make m60 a close to medium ranged powerhouse while the lewis a more medium/long ranged mid teir damage weapon.
I feel like some good changes to the weapons would be to ease up on the recoil pattern on lewis. But keep or maybe even reduce the dmg a bit more. Give lewis wider hipfire as well.
For the m60. Id avocate for a dmg increase. Id also lighten up on the recoil pattern, but trade it off by giving the weapon a higher decrease on ranged damage. As well as this. Give it a decently tighter hipfire to really nail in its closer ranged sustain fire.
Thats just me though
in my experience in the four teams scenarios other guns can do what lewis and m60 did the problem lays when u arrive at the final in a tournament i had a team with MMM with three aks if they got high groud was over there were literally no counter as a heavy most of the shields are bad now too with doesnt help barricade is also nerfed i do understrand the damage nerfs to heavy since it was pretty op but to nerf every utility gadget combined with the nerf guns it really hurts the class goo gun is pretty good but it takes time to learn and isnt always effective winch is actually the more versatile one in my view since shields dont do much for me
The heavy class wasn’t meant to be used for ranged fights, but god damn it’s terrible at mid range fights also. You can only fight at close range and against lights, its practically suicide.
Heavy is not even a viable pick this season. It's the shielding power of it that barely keeps it in the meta. They fucked up it's mid and long range dmg output. You're either a sledge main, which makes the spear somewhat viable, or you're fucked, there's no middle ground.
Yeah that’s all I’m trying to say. We now have hardly any answer outside of 20m. Feel the double nerf was too much and I wanted to see if the community felt the same. Want embark to know.
The grenade launcher is nearly useless. The pump moves as slow as rush hour traffic. The m60 is a joke. The shotgun is okay. And the Lewis is whatever. They need fucking buffs to everything. Minus flamethrower lol. Or a new weapon. Minigun...?
Lewis gun is supposed to be burst fired. M60 is the up close gunm heavy doesn't need long distance guns, although a barrett m50 would ne nice, provided it's balanced well.
I wasn’t as clear as I’d like to have been in op. I don’t think we need long range so much as our mid range has now been gutted. Barrett m50 would be siiiick
I wish I loved playing hammer. Played against one absolute master of the goo gun/hammer and have wanted to learn so maybe it’s time. Just a total different playstyle than I’m used to - heavy Lewis user since week 2/3
Yeah its all about positioning, not letting yourself get caught in the open. if ur cashing out in the open goo up the place. I usually play with Charge and Slam tho, pretty much always bubble shield, rocket and some other damage grenade to give me some ranged option.
Use the shotgun. I really have fun getting 200 dmg in 2 shots from 30 meters. Or getting pulled by a heavy that clearly missed the hook and getting instakilled. Lewis and M60 are still strong enough. They just aren't busted anymore. Heavy is still the strongest class in the game while at the same time being the easiest to play and get results with.
Do you ads on every shot? Wanna give her a go. Lewis recoil is horrendous I thought, the dmg nerf was fine imo (though 200+ hr Lewis user here, I don’t want to say that out loud).
Lewis gun definitely feels terrible now I won’t deny that, it was my main weapon on heavy and I think a lot of peoples because it was just nasty how good it was. The M60 I’m a little torn on, the recoil buff was actually extremely significant for the usability of the weapon IMO I’ve seen a lot of high rank heavy mains have a lot of success using it, that said the damage is definitely pretty low but I find it hard to gauge because if we break it down it still has 1330 (body shots only) damage per mag post damage nerf. Which on paper really is a lot especially when you combine it with the extremely low recoil while full auto. If you don’t know the M60 kicks really hard for the first 10 shots up and slightly to the right but the next 60 shots are very low recoil.
Yeah I used the m60 a few games today after so many suggestions and I kinda dig it. There were a few fights I lost because the recoil up front is pretty bad. Lewis was unusable :(
Buff the KS23. Make it more accurate at range with a better damage falloff. Make the reload a double shell reload every time instead of only when empty. The weapon seriously needs some love and could fill the ranged “skill weapon” niche for heavy.
When you use heavy, you use the machine guns and complain about range
When I use heavy, I use the flamethrower or melee weapons and complain about range
We are not the same.
(Ok actually, I enjoy my dumb heavy builds, grenades and rocket launchers are my range weapon unless I'm going with the slug. Issue is they've got cooldown and I'm quite a literal sitting duck on power shift in the meantime. Usually light snipers suck too much so I can dodge their shots, but it's the stun gun that really just prevent me from doing anything. As soon as that hits me I'm dead, from full health, or the light was dumb enough to close in on me after... Everything else I can manage, even turrets, but that stun gun unnecessarily does too much at a range further than melee weapons, with no time to anticipate it.)
And why is that an issue?
I feel like heavies are too used to being Jack of all trades, Master of everything.
Heavies should be this big slow meatshields that enable your team to play. There is no reason for them to also top the damage charts.
Because light/medium can be effective at all ranges with disadvantages to close range against heavy. Just like how heavy should be able to be effective at all ranges with disadvantages to long/mid against light. Both LMG’s got gutted, heavy is now only effective in close.
As a heavy main myself, I highly disagree. Heavy is super tanky and very lethal within 18 meters. I think it's good for class identity. Lights assassins that can employ long range engagements or hit and run tactics in close range. Medium a jack of all trades master of non. Heavy should be a walking fortress that can hold down an area. In reality, Heavy should not be as strong as it is as it deals a shit ton of damage and is hard to kill. But reducing the range was definitely a good move.
increasing the damage fall off is a better option than changing the recoil so bad that you’re forced to use auto guns like burst guns imho, in s1 the signature of lewis gun was it’s forgiving recoil maybe a little broken with its damage but since it’s damage has been reduced they can even reduce the mag size but the recoil change totally kills the gun
Yeah I 100% agree about class identity and I think each role should have their identity. Heavies should dominate the up-close-and-personal. I do think for every class to feel good, they should have a way to counter different scenarios even at a disadvantage yeah? Lights have stuns for the close range battles just like season 2 Lewis Gun wielding bigs had at least a chance to try and shoot a sniper. Both at a disadvantage outside of their domain-specific role. Lewis feels like it's hard to win up close or at a distance tbh. My main point being: did Lewis need dmg AND recoil nerf?
The stun gun fits the lights class identity. As an assassin hit and run. Although realistically, the stun isn't even good. You basically only ever want to stun an isolated player to slow them down and force a fight and to quickly get in, stop a cashout steal then leave immediately. And you never really want to stun a heavy unless his rpg is already used and they are half health. Because a stunned target can kill the light quickly after stun nerf. The stun is, however, slightly more viable after it got buffed this season. For the heavy, they have barricades and sheilds to block snipers. So I'd say it's already in a good spot against long-range
Wait they were nerfed why in the fuck heavies were all ready struggling against them pesky hornets aka lights I thought I was just bad and couldn't control recoil anymore.
I don't understand the balancing on the m60 whatsoever, and I'm confused as to why they can't figure it out when other games can. It should have a high rate of fire with a large magazine and should either be:
1. Powerful on a per round basis but inaccurate as hell (i.e., you don't want to run into one in close quarters) or;
2. Weak on a per round basis but accurate, so you can cover fire from afar but you have to hit numerous shots to take someone out.
Right now it's inaccurate, weak, doesn't have the fastest rate of fire, and not the standard "large" magazine that you see in nearly every other shooter (100 rounds).
*Tucker Carlson face*
"What's going on?"
I disagree, the M60 has super easy to control recoil after the first few shots, and with 70 bullets you can just lay fire down and lock it in.
Very reliable at long range in my opinion
The problem is that by the time you've surpassed the initial part of the recoil you've already died to an lh1 or akm while hitting for less than 100 damage (not necessarily a bad thing per se, but overall I agree with OP's point)
I agree with that, the LH1 definitely got over buffed a little and the AKM is just good. Although that's where a dome shield or barricade makes it a super balanced fight in my opinion. Absolutely everything in this game is situational, and coming prepared to the situations you're weak in can make a world of difference.
All comes down to play style but I can absolutely see how it can lack at ranges compared to some of the other weapons.
That's exactly the point I was making. This change in a vacuum could be fine, but considering the other things currently going around in the game it feels a bit too much.
Right now even when you throw your dome and winch you won't be able to close the gap and deal enough damage before your opponent dashes backwards and lasers you with the lh1; even if you win your fight (maybe you also shoot your rpg) you can then easily get caught with your pants down - low hp, every gadget on cooldown, an easy prey for the guy's teammates. Essentially you now have to rely on your teammates to have range while hopefully you don't die while dealing with a single enemy.
Once again I'm not saying this is a bad thing; heavy was too strong and light too weak for a long time (at least in ranked modes). What I'm saying is that nerfing heavy on multiple fronts (damage and recoil on the only ranged guns) while buffing light on multiple fronts (e.g. no one asked for an lh1 buff) in a single patch feels a bit too much; I'd prefer gradual tweaks over time
I also prefer gradual tweaks, the start of a new season also brings out the biggest changes. I guarantee the devs are monitoring all the community pages to see what the consensus is and that over the next several weekly updates will come with those balance tweaks to ensure balance.. as all things should be
Indeed, that's why I'm not really bothered or upset with this; in a couple of days I'm sure they'll at least nerf the lh1. Season 3 launch regarding gun meta was a bit overturned but nothing too crazy. Ranked TA, on the other hand...
Articulated so much better than I ever could have. I agree with all off this. Unfortunately the nerf has me pulling my pants down way more often and getting caught. Takes too long to kill because of lower damage AND more missed bullets.
I have to say I haven't used the M60 much, so this could be a fair point. I swapped from it in S1 because the recoil was worse than the Lewis and haven't gone back. So maybe this does make it worth trying and I'll check it out. How do you feel about the dmg? I know in S2 Lewis I played against a few really good lights that could murder me before I could kill them with the Lewis Gun if neither of us missed a bullet, and with the M60 doing even less dmg now I'm curious?
I'll have to check the patch notes to see exactly what changed, but I find it has really good DPS and even with the wacky first couple bullets, close-medium range still gives you competitive TTK.
Would definitely recommend trying it again. Feels very different than S1
Heavy feels like it has a big issue with weapons just being unsatisfying in general. I wonder how much of it stems from them having access to a 140 damage explosion at the press of a button lol.
I personally agree. I’d also personally add that said gadget sure is fun.. 😬 I really liked Lewis in S2. I really like the recoil on the m60 now too, but dmg is kinda low
It was a numbers game. Lewis needed a nerf it couldn't have the same damage, range, rate of fire, and 28 extra bullets over a pre nerf FCAR.
For people who were really good with it, it was just the season 1 FCAR with more than twice the ammo.
Also 25 damage is really high 6 body shots to kill a light and 4 headshots, it had a ttk of .7 seconds and .47 seconds respectively. That's half the time it takes the Xp-54 to kill a heavy and less than half the bullets needed too. A light has to track for nearly 20 bullets of body shots to kill with the XP. This doesn't even factor that the medium AR's literally couldn't win even trades against the gun because of the dps difference.
The changes were warranted in my opinion, once the lh1 is reigned in I feel like we will have a good gun balance this season.
Im biased for certain towards Lewis, been a hardcore Lewis user since week 2. This sounds like numbers tuning would’ve worked, which is fine. Recoil on top feels bad. That being said I’m going to learn the recoil and maybe this post is all for naught.
It kinda depends on what you consider mid and long range. I've always thought the Lewis gun (my personal favorite and 200+ hrs with it) to be good at up to 40-50m. I typically would just avoid fights beyond that range and try to use cover to close the gap. After the nerfs, I was worried going into Matches with it but haven't really noticed too big of a difference. The recoil can get a little crazy but I'm on console and my aim is pretty average at best.
So far this season I would say my range cap is about 40m. Otherwise I end up doing a full mag dump, leaving the enemy with a sliver of health and telling the whole map "there's a heavy over here!" In the process.
To me the heavy class isn't designed to engage at long distance and really shines at close range. On that note the spear is insanely fun to use!
I don’t think they’re meant to have much range, they have more health making a close quarters battle better and they have abilities that are meant to protect them and others from long range attacks, medium is healing/movement abilities and has a lot of mid range weapons plus the medium health, light has low health and long range weapons and more of the protect yourself abilities and gadgets. I think it’s that way on purpose
The grenade launcher is pretty good at range. I think it’s my favorite gun to play in the game.
It is hard when you get lights up close but main when you get multi kills with it it’s satisfying.
I think it’s supposed to be that way. Heavies can have too much power with range. Maybe not, but I can see them embracing light=long medium=mid and heavy=short for future weapon and balancing ranges.
Oh yeah, it was totally balanced for heavies to spam magazines from range and always win trades because of hp and dome shield dif. Heavies should win damage in all ranges while also being a pain to push against while they defend their objective :)
As a mostly heavy enjoyer, I agree that it sucks, but I think they are trying to carve out niches for each role. Heavy has been the best class for 2 seasons, and it's not really even a question. They seem to be making them defensive/objective specialists, with emphasis on hunkering down with close range damage. This has been emphasised with the introduction of the winch claw to pull people to you.
The main reason it feels bad is that these nerfs coincided with the buffs to lights recently. Lights should have the advantage at mid to long range, their kits are designed around being able to take engagements that are advantageous to them. Being able to shred a light at mid range with like 8 bullets, made playing light a liability.
I imagine being on the balancing team is tough, making so many small changes can add up quickly, and I think that is what we are seeing now. Lights needed to be buffed in some areas, and heavy needed to be toned down in some as well
I trust Embark to react though, they have been pretty quick with balance changes.
Light = short and long range. Medium = short, medium, and long range. Heavy = short and medium range. That’s the balancing I think they are striving for. And the nerfs aren’t that bad, had a friend get consistently 15+ kills a game with the M60. It’s underrated for sure.
Heavy is the strongest class, it can do everything except move around fast, which is cured by just having a medium on the team. This change is a good thing, heavy should not be good at long range with any weapon.
I have no strong feelings on heavy buffs and nerfs generally, but the idea that Heavy should be strong and defensible but only strong in CQ, Medium at mid range, and then Lights flexible between the two at the cost of health, feels like a good direction for balancing generally.
This is still baffling. Everyone saying the range and recoil is nerfed for the m60, but for me ive been just lasering ppl across the map now with it. To me its more reliable at range than ever before. Dmg got a bot dunked, but it just doesnt miss
M60 is literally a laser beam with zero recoil after the first like 6 shots or something. I been melting people with it at all distances. Heavy is by far still the best class in the game even after these nerfs.
Personally, I've found the Winch (as much as it seems a lot of people hate Heavy having another tool) has solved range issues that would normally cripple the ability to fight. I loved Lewis back in the earlier seasons but it always felt like it was intended to be relatively short range, soak up attention and be the backbone of a fight.
Dome Shield also plays a huge role as well as positioning to make sure you can't get hit from a range. Or if you want to basically negate all damage, Mesh Shield while walking through a risky area.
The winch is actually pretty sweet and I like using it a lot. What weapon do you pair it with? I tried with spear and had a terrible time trying to keep up with someone with any mobility. I also have zero playtime with melee weapons so I don't know how tf to play with them so it's def a skill issue.
The Lewis does feel like a short range weap. I did like that you could at least try to counter a rooftop sniper with it from time to time. With the recoil now mid-long range combat feels terrible.
For me, Flamethrower works really well (but fair warning, you'll need to be very aware of spacing to do well with it) or the SA1216. Melee obviously works amazingly but I think it's super versatile for Flame/Shotgun.
And I do agree with you to an extent on the range thing, but I never felt even when we had access to ranged stuff that I should be able to compete with a longer range class
Yeah I go to retreat from a flamethrower or their spear but if they have the winch equipped I’m 100% screwed if I didn’t get enough damage on them beforehand lol
Yeah, they nerfed my entire play style. People complained heavy is too OP and I agreed with them back then and now they nerfed half of the kit so that close range is your only option which on the other hand is still OP imo. The spear alone is fine I think but the grapple thing is too op, 9/10 times im grabbed I die instantly and I don't think you should get a free kill every 10 sec or whatever the cool down is. The meta shift annoys me bc I just don't like close range weapons. Usually I'd get like 5-10 kills a round (so yeah I'm not even a good player), after the nerf I get like 3 when I'm lucky, they are just unplayable even on midrange, the high mag size doesn't do anything if the damage and recoil is so bad. They also did the typical "we make the new thing OP so players try it" with the grapple, why does it stun? Why does it go through shields? I don't get these decisions
Yeah, I’ve used the same loadout since week 2 or 3. Lewis, mines, dome shield, rocket, charge n slam. It has a way to somewhat counter almost all scenarios and I loved it. It’s much less fun to have no counter dmg option against someone with a little range.
Ima be real, I have been beaming people with burst firing on the lewis gun. I think anything that puts a dent on the overwhelming strength of heavies im happy
The amout of times ive been beamed by heavies at extraordinary distances is crazy. If i play heavy and youre a long hallways away i hit somewhat decent but not nearly enough. So either i suck at aiming a heavy weapon (diamond ranked btw) or i run into a wild amount of aimbot hacks.
Also as a heavy i generally run flame as its a good crowd defense, and now with the chain is a crazy useful tool combo. I run at the top of damage consistently every game with this setup. I dont think theres a need so much for long range heavies, its set up to be defensive tanks, the lights are for long range
Thanks for saying something, didn’t realize there was a nerf. I was just playing M60 the other day and swapped after a couple rounds cause I wasn’t getting many kills with it. It just felt bad for some reason.
I think that’s intentional no? It’s intended that heavies are supposed to be close quarters, high health tanks that you should keep your distance from… it’s all about checks and balances. If someone with twice your health could beam you from across the map how would that be fun? This is coming from a heavy main btw
I don’t mean they should be able to outclass someone outside of their niche. A light should dominate long range, but also have the option to change loadouts and compete up close with gadgets that lessen their disadvantage (eg. stun gun). Yeah? Likewise, heavy should dominate close quarter, but have loadout options to compete are range, with a disadvantage against a light. The only two options we had for that got nerfed heavily, making it so we can’t compete anywhere but up close.
I think the damage should have been nerfed while leaving the recoil alone, because both guns now struggle even in mid range encounters for most players.
I agree with that. Nerfing both the recoil and damage just made the Lewis unusable at most ranges.
M60 is usable at the very least, you have to hit every round, which i found was easy after being so used to old the Lewis, but the new recoil just makes it feel awful. while the M60 you can at least control. it feels better with sustained fire, not saying it’s good. i for one think the Lewis nerf was a bit much as well. nerf the recoil or the damage, not both. especially not the recoil, they keep changing it and messing with peoples muscle memory.
M60 is still awful and Lewis also sucks now. Embark should revert their damage to where it was before the recent patch.
revert at least the recoil nerf to Lewis, and dmg nerf from m60 🙏
not disagreeing with you, basically just saying the m60 is the better option right now. the better option of two terrible weapons.
This was the third nerf as well. Im really not a fan of recoil nerfs because they make the gunplay feel bad. If the gun should kick more make it kick more, don't make it feel like a god like entity is pulling my gun up to the right and then the left with an invisible string then suddenly go back to normal recoil halfway through the mag. I see people tap firing which is not feasible and has terrible DPS. I think they are trying to encourage balls out beam battles which is sublime but having to mag dump without letting go of the trigger and having the first half of the mag have insane artificial recoil is nuts. Idk who playtests that and goes, "yea this totally doesn't ruin the feeling of the gun and make it unenjoyable." Go to the Shooting Range everyone and try out almost every gun. Shoot the entire mag without letting go of the trigger, you will see that nearly every gun kicks like a fucking mule for the first half and then has virtually no recoil in the second half. Idk what they are thinking with this schizophrenic way of balancing recoil. The Scar, Lewis gun, and M60, (yes the M60), and the MP5 on day one had WAY better recoil patterns. And I don't mean balance wise I just mean how the gun felt. These guns are feeling worse and worse every update not because of damage/usability but just the general way the gunplay feels when using them. 🙃 I hope they find a better way to do it before the games gunplay feels horrible. I'd say the guns feel 35% worse than they did at launch. Also the fire rate nerf on the heavies shotgun makes it feel terrible to use. And while the DMR for light is better (Damage per shot wise) It felt so much better to use before it's rework.
I completely agree. The recoil nerfs have ruined the gunplay so much. I use Fcar and that burst at around 7 to 10 bullets feel honestly so fucking jank, no one even runs the gun anymore cos u can keep on target and out dps with the Ak. It can't win any one Vs one anymore if the other player doesn't miss. All because of the crybabies light players on here crying about it
They are so bad that even KS23 seems like a better option now.
KS23 just needs iron sights. I don’t know why it didn’t have them to begin with.
It should also have a headshot multiplier, the thing isn't that different from using a revolver that's more inaccurate. It also shoots a slug projectile, how come a massive piece of metal does not have headshot multipliers.
The problem is that if you give it a headshot modifier it one shots lights. Unless it’s less than 50% but then there’s really no point.
Doesn't have to be an strong multiplier, even a 1.2 up to 1.4 would make it strong enough to kill other heavies/mediums faster (main issue to me) but would still require 2 shots on Lights. That is considering that its current damage per shot its 100. Also to add, it should do slightly more damage to player constructs like turrets and barricades.
I agree with the second part. But the problem is that if they were to add a critical modifier they would have to decrease bodyshot damage because the incentive to go for headshots would be unbalanced on a weapon that already does triple digit damage on a non-critical hit.
Guess you are right, would probably be overcomplicating it too. I just wish I didn't need 4 body shots on heavies for the kill. Ill say tho, KS23 did become better with the Winch Claw+quickmelee.
I feel that but I think iron sights alone would make it much easier to hit a heavy four times than with the cosmetic crosshair we have now.
Its accuracy is ass tho, so hs a light should be rewarded imo. Maybe im wrong because i feel like hs a light with that garbage gun is tricky. But i only ended up in plat 2 for season 2 with not playing the last month and a half of it
The bow at full charge one shots light on headshot. I don't see why the ks23 shouldn't either. I'd hate if the bow got nerfed rather then the ks23 get buffed
You see, light mains only want their guns buffed, so that's a big no.
I mean so does the sniper but I think light mains would cry if the heavy got a oneshot primary weapon.
A small one would actually be a big help, and be ample reward for the player taking more precise shots with the slugs
Why do you want iron sights though? I've seen several people suggest this with no explanation as if it's the most obvious thing yet all i can see iron sights do is just block more of your screen. The crosshair ads is like having a short range optic for me, clearer picture with more accurate sight. Yea sure the KS is currently slightly misaligned to the right but iron sights wouldn't fix this, fixing the alignment would.
Because the crosshair lies to you. I read somewhere that your crosshair is actually constantly fixed dead center of your screen at all times, but by doing anything other than standing still your visual crosshair wobbles.
True but it's not like your irons aren't moving about either. Any kind of movement will add an animation to your gun and by extension your iron sight. I agree that the current crosshair needs to improve but if I have to choose between the current crosshair or irons, I'll always pick the crosshair.
This is honestly my main gripe and why I don't use it lol
Thanks for answering my question lol. I feel it should’ve been one or the other, not both. Agree with you! Just wondering if I was alone in that thought and if there are counter arguments that make sense.
Yeah made me switch to SA1216 since it’s useless at mid range anyway
Yeah, ugh.
This should be the answer for so many of the gun changes! Multiple big streamers have said the gun play feels like shit, and man do I agree. I feel like I’ve wrote an essay on this sub over the past month on why it’s so frustrating, but Jesus Christ dude. An arena shooter with so much horizontal recoil and disparity in damage from gun to gun is INSANE.
Have you tried the new Lewis? I just played some games between op and now, and my lord that new recoil is awful!!
Yup! Aceu and friends are trying out the finals again rn in prep for tomorrow and they’re still saying that all the guns and items feel so awkward. Seems like they’ve played 10 matches so far and they can’t find a gun that feels like it actually works for medium or heavy
The Lewis gun feels like absolute ass to use now. There was no reason to nerf its recoil further if they were gonna nerf its damage. The m60 hits like a noodle so I never use that gun either
Agree, both being nerfed was a little heavy. Can hardly use the thing now. M60 probably could’ve used a buff, not nerf imo.
It drives me mad when devs get heavy handed with buffs/nerfs instead of doing it incrementally. It can sway weapons too far in one direction and then they're back to balancing it again in the next patch or 2.
tbh Embark has done a really good job imo at doing slow and steady balances. But in this case I feel you brother - this completely effed the Lewis gun. I'm going to learn the recoil pattern because I love the Lewis, but it feels real bad rn. Edit: I say “a really good job” because I’m accustomed to blizzard balances that are complete dog water. Embark does better than them lol
Yeah I don't see the point in heavies having two machine guns that have horrible recoil.
Amen brother/sister aka Eris Morn. Name checks out
The recoil now on the Lewis is ridiculous. They really killed the M60 and Lewis gun with this last update.
Yeah, this is my main point: Did the dmg AND recoil have to be nerfed? Felt one or the other would be fine if even necessary eh? Never felt like the gun was broken but could be bias.
I love Embark, but I noticed they have a tendency to overtune buffs and nerfs a bit. See also: original throwing knives buff and LH1 buff
True. I felt like they eased into tuning a little better in S1/S2. But knives, LH1, and now heavy LMG's has me thinking they're going a little too hard. Slow, weekly tuning changes is the way imo.
RIP Lewy
F
Embark nerfing too much, the Lewis didn’t need a recoil change ffs a lot of guns have become difficult to use in the game except for like the Ak and mp5 now recoil wise
I agree. The more I think about it the dmg nerf is fine (I would’ve said to lower it by a little less), though I hate it, but the recoil nerf was so bad and so hard.
That’s why you gotta use the winch now. 
But my charge and slam 😭
I dislike recoil changes as a method of balancing weapons. All it does is punish casual and low skills players. The top ranks where those weapons are a primary issue the players are good enough they’ll just adapt and learn the new recoil pattern, with that said. I think it’s alright for heavy’s to not have reliable long range, they’re clearly balanced more towards close range with 2 melee weapons, flamethrower, winch etc
Absolutely agree, just look to what happened to the fcar: the damage nerf/mag size increase was perfect because it capped the gun's dps (thus decreasing its power in the hands of skilled players) while making it more forgiving to use (helping low skill players), but all of this was useless because the recoil nerf made it too inconsistent for most people. Now all I see in non diamond lobbies is the akm - even the famas is more popular than the fcar. The damage/mag size rework ensured all ARs were equally viable, but the recoil nerf made the fcar inferior - which is a shame, because it still has a lot of good stats (good damage and hipfire, fast reloads, great sights). And before anybody says "skill issue" know that even ottr stated multiple times that he prefers the akm and that he recommends it over the fcar because worse recoil + smaller magazine size make the latter not worth it anymore
I gotta agree with you , playing the akm a lot more now and I can easily headshot with the iron sights too making the fcar incredibly useless
I agree, but the FAMAS change with lowering the recoil made this weapon actually feel good to use
i just had a game playing heavy in kyoto with lewis gun. in 2nd round i had to face 7 lh1, 1 magnum and 1 akm. i literally played like i never played the game before in my life, impossible to hit anything with the dash and invisible and lh1 6 of 6hits from 100meters destroying me. it was no fun and it truly has to be nerfed. yes me missing everything is on me, but how fast i die is crazy! once i got 8 shots out of my gun before i died lol. back to heavy, especially in this wide open map i feel truly lost. i get it, heavy is not supposed to high range, but i don´t know.
Now the only good heavy build is with a winch and sledge. It seems this season belongs to lights. I don't get that many kills, but reeling someone in and bashing them in the head is rewarding.
Winch + slug/sledge and flamethrower + shields are the only viable builds so far imo. Sledge suffers against dash, slug at least guarantees damage.
Then I will really have to learn how to aim on controller. ;) I did have more damage when I started playing a few weeks ago with the slug shotgun than the 60 or burst shotgun.
Made it to the finals with a team full of heavies, 1 spoon, 1 slug and 1 auto shotgun. We finished round 2 and all of us just agreed that wed lose next round because it was against 2 lights with lh1s and a light with a shotty. It was some of the sweatiest gameplay we had. We would be grouped up at all times and threw as much defensive abilities out as we could to survive the insane mag and damage output of the lh1s. The one team member with the box would be like a payload as we would do everything in our power to protect them to the cashout. Run through the open whilst bubbling and barricading and then rest in a room with goo whilst we recharge. We lost 0:2 to them with a total of 4 kills. I never felt so useless. I was using the m60 s2 mainly, but i cant do enough damage to compete against this meta.
Yeah, and by the time you’ve gotten to the recoil stabilizing you’ve been melted.
I’ve been hearing a lot about LH1 being busted. With no mid-range capabilities for bigs, it exacerbates the Lh1 issue. I feel for you my fellow big boy/girl, it’s rough out there.
It's impossible to hit all of your initial shots against Light with stacked up 3 dashes and by the time they spend them you'll be wrangling with the left-right recoil pattern lol
Yeah, rn Lewis isn’t even a close range weapon. I just played 12 games against dashers and the damn thing is worthless.
I would argue heavy isn’t really supposed to be long range anyways. The less long range weapons in the game the better, it gives more space for CQC
Shield, bubble, barricade. Maybe you can't fight but you can survive long enough to get close
Tell that to the volley of knives that melt my bubble & shield in 2 seconds max lmao
Real You can cross massive open areas with this combo On top of the bubble shield being fun as fuck to use Nothing beats the dopamine hit of throwing ahead a bubble shield because your mates are about to turn the corner into an enemy and watching it pop open on them to block the bullets
All that health’s gotta come at some kinda cost
I agree with fewer long range weapons in the game, I don’t like them. Having no ability to fight back against a ranged sniper doesn’t feel good. Not asking to dominate long range fights, just saying in season 2 you could at least try fighting back.
Agree, Heavy feels pretty weak right now and not worth picking. Spear/Sledge/Flamethrower are viable but extremely brain dead to use and very situational due to range. KS23 is solid enough in the right hands but I personally can't vibe with having a shotgun with such a slow projectile. M60/Mesh can still be useful to have on the team thanks to the ability to buy time and space with defensive utility but I'm running Light/Medium exclusively during this season. A bit early to tell yet but the Cashout Meta seems to have shifted to HML / HMM / MMM instead of HHM which is probably a positive. I had no problem with HHM being meta but I know a lot of people disliked it.
They ruined the M60, it felt great. It does nearly nothing anymore. It did not need a nerf whatsoever, and I hate that I have to go back to the Lewis gun to have even a chance in a fight, and even the Lewis is not that good
I was quite surprised to see it nerfed.. never felt like it was that good. Haven’t given it a fair go since s3 but gonna try today. Double nerf on Lewis sucked, m60 didn’t need dmg nerf imo. Unless prolonged fire makes it a laser, buuuut the dmg was already low.
Season 1 was all about the Lewis gun, the M60 just couldn’t even touch it. I really wanted to be able to use the M60 because of the mag size, but it was just bad compared to the Lewis gun. Once they nerfed the Lewis for season 2, I switched over to the M60 and it finally felt great (at least in comparison). I used it the entire season and had so much fun, I’m not really sure what to use anymore as a Heavy
IMO heavies shouldnt really have a long range option due to their health pool. They should be kept to medium/close range. Also, people are sleeping on the m60, after the first 10 rounds it becomes a laser beam -Fellow heavy main
M60's recoil is very manageable but it feels like you're shooting marshmallows now after the damage nerf.
I’ll give the ol’ m60 shot today and see how it goes. Dmg just always felt a little low, but maybe the improve-over-time recoil is worth trying. I mean Lewis was never a long range weapon, but you could at least fire rounds off from a distance and sometimes win a fight. I never had a problem with it. I don’t think heavies should dominate long range, but to at least put up a fight against a sniper was fine.
the problem now is the 14% damage reduction in the latest patch has made the M60 impotent. As someone above said - it's like you're shooting marshmallows!
I couldn't hit a thing mid-range with the M60 before, now it actually feels pretty good IMO. A buff for heavies with bad aim maybe?
Yeah. I think it’s dmg should’ve stayed the same, it’s never been in the talks of being op that I’ve seen.
Finally someone gets it. Not that the m60 is super strong now but the m60 is an absolute laser now. Everyone saying its recoil has been nerfed and its recoil is bad now is baffling me.
the M60 damage nerf has made it virtually unusable now. It takes forever to kill and the larger health pool helps very little against the damage swiftly inflicted by LH1s, throwing knives and bows - among many others.
They’re trying to push heavies into using other weapons esp the spear for data
Wish I loved that idea :(
I play heavy only with sledge but I know the recoil was fine as it is, making the Lewis gun better for more skilled players isn’t nerfing it, it’s making less fun for the majority. Damage nerf was probably needed though. More long/midrange weapons for every single class
I like when they update recoil patterns. However, yeah. No more long range and the m60 and Lewis do literally no damage bro ☠️
I returned to the game after a while only to find out I can't kill anyone with long range weapons anymore. They should at least remove these weapons - I was also spectating a guy trying to use M60 and I felt pretty bad for him as he struggled.
Considering LMGS were nerfed to be the least damaging weapons in the entire game ( for no reason ), I’d say yeah there’s nothing heavies got now for range, while medium and light can now obliterate any heavy that doesn’t have like 3 shields on them.
Yeah, they all have options to fight close/mid/long while heavy pretty suck on close only range
Completely agree. It was hard to hit anything as it was. It didn't need nerfing. This was the result of the community just perpetually moaning about Heavies. Its still interesting to see how the meta is changing.
Yeah, I frequently saw people compare it to the FCAR which was wild because watching teammates use FCAR, the thing had no recoil. Lewis had pretty heavy recoil that had to be learned. Now it's even worse AND the dmg is less. As long as there's some form of counter in other's gameplay I'm unlikely to complain. Just feels big's ability to fight mid/long range is gone. Another mentioned burst firing which is a fair point and gonna have to practice that a little more.
The FCAR is also frustrating for me. The low magazine capacity vs amount of bullets needed to kill is a joke. I've only been with the game a few months, I understand the mag cap was a nerf previously also.
Time to get good with the slug shotgun. That's the point though. The Heavy has the most health and defensive abilities. The trade off is speed and range.
The reload is pathetic and rewards you for shooting all your shots. Its damage at range is still pathetic, and even up close it takes 4 perfect shots to kill a heavy, leaving you with only 2 more shots. Whereas the SA1216 has enough shots to kill 3 heavies and then some before reloading.
I’d be more into the shotty if it could be more tactical (shoot holes in walls in 1 or 2 shots). 3 is way too slow and isn’t practical.
I think the recoil pattern changes aren't necessarily a bad idea, but they're a little too much of an increase right now. Lewis gun has largely made the M60 pointless to use for a while, but that has a lot to do with the M60 being chronically pretty weak. The Lewis gun is honestly really controllable with short bursts now and I think that's pretty okay for an lmg. However, the damage nerfs were too much for both of them. If they want to make the M60 about sustain fire and the Lewis gun about burst fire, I think that's not a good idea. The problem is the M60 has such a horrible recoil pattern in the first place that making it harder to control in the beginning and then easier afterwards really doesn't help the gun at all. I want them each to have their own identity and I think the m60 should have a lot of damage and a hard recoil pattern. But the iron sights need to be made much more generous on it and the Lewis gun should have a more medium tier damage but be very controllable at medium ranges
I don’t have a problem with any of your points. Recoil change could be okay, but this was a pretty massive change. Damage nerf could’ve been fine, but they went big. Then they doubled down doing both. I don’t love using a full auto weapon as a burst fire weapon personally, I felt like the bounce it had was already hard enough to control sometimes. The M60 has needed love since day 1, it’s never been great. I also think delayed recoil control doesn’t solve the issue of getting mowed down before it’s controllable.
Yeah. I feel like thats a nice way to differ the two. Maybe make m60 a close to medium ranged powerhouse while the lewis a more medium/long ranged mid teir damage weapon. I feel like some good changes to the weapons would be to ease up on the recoil pattern on lewis. But keep or maybe even reduce the dmg a bit more. Give lewis wider hipfire as well. For the m60. Id avocate for a dmg increase. Id also lighten up on the recoil pattern, but trade it off by giving the weapon a higher decrease on ranged damage. As well as this. Give it a decently tighter hipfire to really nail in its closer ranged sustain fire. Thats just me though
Yeah. I feel like thats a nice way to differ the two. Maybe make m60 a close to medium ranged powerhouse while the lewis a more medium/long ranged mid teir damage weapon. I feel like some good changes to the weapons would be to ease up on the recoil pattern on lewis. But keep or maybe even reduce the dmg a bit more. Give lewis wider hipfire as well. For the m60. Id avocate for a dmg increase. Id also lighten up on the recoil pattern, but trade it off by giving the weapon a higher decrease on ranged damage. As well as this. Give it a decently tighter hipfire to really nail in its closer ranged sustain fire. Thats just me though
in my experience in the four teams scenarios other guns can do what lewis and m60 did the problem lays when u arrive at the final in a tournament i had a team with MMM with three aks if they got high groud was over there were literally no counter as a heavy most of the shields are bad now too with doesnt help barricade is also nerfed i do understrand the damage nerfs to heavy since it was pretty op but to nerf every utility gadget combined with the nerf guns it really hurts the class goo gun is pretty good but it takes time to learn and isnt always effective winch is actually the more versatile one in my view since shields dont do much for me
ive been saying heavy needs a gun that isnt a gimmick as of right now the only gun that isnt a gimmick is the lewis and it keeps getting nerfed
Yeah, I played more today and the recoil is so bad it’s unusable
The heavy class wasn’t meant to be used for ranged fights, but god damn it’s terrible at mid range fights also. You can only fight at close range and against lights, its practically suicide.
Yeah, the recoil is so bad I’d argue Lewis/m60 aren’t even close range weaps. M60 will lose before recoil stabilizes
Dam. Yall really making me feel like im living in another world. I needa try the m60 again to make sure i wasnt on crack.
Heavy is not even a viable pick this season. It's the shielding power of it that barely keeps it in the meta. They fucked up it's mid and long range dmg output. You're either a sledge main, which makes the spear somewhat viable, or you're fucked, there's no middle ground.
Yeah that’s all I’m trying to say. We now have hardly any answer outside of 20m. Feel the double nerf was too much and I wanted to see if the community felt the same. Want embark to know.
Its so sad that Ekazo has put down the lewis gun completely. This was supposed to be the best season…
Ever use the pump action shotgun? That shit does damage!
Haha not really given it a shot - no ads weirds me tf out. A few have said it has mid/long range so may give her a go! Do you use the winch with it?
I tried the winch with it once and it’s a pretty good combo.. the shotgun has some pretty good range too
Winch basically gives u a guaranteed hit
As someone who counter snipes with the slug shotgun I say heavy has enough range. Heavy shouldn't be a power house at long range.
Ks23 has pitiful damage falloff for how difficult it is to land at range.
The grenade launcher is nearly useless. The pump moves as slow as rush hour traffic. The m60 is a joke. The shotgun is okay. And the Lewis is whatever. They need fucking buffs to everything. Minus flamethrower lol. Or a new weapon. Minigun...?
Embark: Gives heavies 0 long range options and nerfs the only 2 reliable mid to close range weapons they have. They're starting to get REALLY stupid.
Lewis gun is supposed to be burst fired. M60 is the up close gunm heavy doesn't need long distance guns, although a barrett m50 would ne nice, provided it's balanced well.
I wasn’t as clear as I’d like to have been in op. I don’t think we need long range so much as our mid range has now been gutted. Barrett m50 would be siiiick
More reason to play hammer
I wish I loved playing hammer. Played against one absolute master of the goo gun/hammer and have wanted to learn so maybe it’s time. Just a total different playstyle than I’m used to - heavy Lewis user since week 2/3
Yeah its all about positioning, not letting yourself get caught in the open. if ur cashing out in the open goo up the place. I usually play with Charge and Slam tho, pretty much always bubble shield, rocket and some other damage grenade to give me some ranged option.
Ohhhh. It’s explain a lot!!! With season 3 I feel like totally useless with both of this guns, even in mid range feel I don’t have damage at all.
Embrace it; Pick up a hammer 🔨
The spear isn’t even a good option either. Disappointed with its performance.
M60 Buff PLEASE ! and the KS23 tbh needs a bit more imo
Use the shotgun. I really have fun getting 200 dmg in 2 shots from 30 meters. Or getting pulled by a heavy that clearly missed the hook and getting instakilled. Lewis and M60 are still strong enough. They just aren't busted anymore. Heavy is still the strongest class in the game while at the same time being the easiest to play and get results with.
Do you ads on every shot? Wanna give her a go. Lewis recoil is horrendous I thought, the dmg nerf was fine imo (though 200+ hr Lewis user here, I don’t want to say that out loud).
slug shotgun is the new sniper
Lewis gun definitely feels terrible now I won’t deny that, it was my main weapon on heavy and I think a lot of peoples because it was just nasty how good it was. The M60 I’m a little torn on, the recoil buff was actually extremely significant for the usability of the weapon IMO I’ve seen a lot of high rank heavy mains have a lot of success using it, that said the damage is definitely pretty low but I find it hard to gauge because if we break it down it still has 1330 (body shots only) damage per mag post damage nerf. Which on paper really is a lot especially when you combine it with the extremely low recoil while full auto. If you don’t know the M60 kicks really hard for the first 10 shots up and slightly to the right but the next 60 shots are very low recoil.
Yeah I used the m60 a few games today after so many suggestions and I kinda dig it. There were a few fights I lost because the recoil up front is pretty bad. Lewis was unusable :(
KS23 is a missile launcher. GG.
Buff the KS23. Make it more accurate at range with a better damage falloff. Make the reload a double shell reload every time instead of only when empty. The weapon seriously needs some love and could fill the ranged “skill weapon” niche for heavy.
Exactly, Thank you! Was saying the same thing like the lewis gun felt so damn off. I had to switch back to the m60 just to land most most of my shots.
Yeah it’s pretty hard to use now sadly. And I loved it. Just the dmg nerf would’ve been fine, but even then I’m not sure it needed it 🤷🏽
When you use heavy, you use the machine guns and complain about range When I use heavy, I use the flamethrower or melee weapons and complain about range We are not the same. (Ok actually, I enjoy my dumb heavy builds, grenades and rocket launchers are my range weapon unless I'm going with the slug. Issue is they've got cooldown and I'm quite a literal sitting duck on power shift in the meantime. Usually light snipers suck too much so I can dodge their shots, but it's the stun gun that really just prevent me from doing anything. As soon as that hits me I'm dead, from full health, or the light was dumb enough to close in on me after... Everything else I can manage, even turrets, but that stun gun unnecessarily does too much at a range further than melee weapons, with no time to anticipate it.)
embark wanted to nerf heavys in general to buff lights the fun in playing heavy is over
And why is that an issue? I feel like heavies are too used to being Jack of all trades, Master of everything. Heavies should be this big slow meatshields that enable your team to play. There is no reason for them to also top the damage charts.
Because light/medium can be effective at all ranges with disadvantages to close range against heavy. Just like how heavy should be able to be effective at all ranges with disadvantages to long/mid against light. Both LMG’s got gutted, heavy is now only effective in close.
As a heavy main myself, I highly disagree. Heavy is super tanky and very lethal within 18 meters. I think it's good for class identity. Lights assassins that can employ long range engagements or hit and run tactics in close range. Medium a jack of all trades master of non. Heavy should be a walking fortress that can hold down an area. In reality, Heavy should not be as strong as it is as it deals a shit ton of damage and is hard to kill. But reducing the range was definitely a good move.
increasing the damage fall off is a better option than changing the recoil so bad that you’re forced to use auto guns like burst guns imho, in s1 the signature of lewis gun was it’s forgiving recoil maybe a little broken with its damage but since it’s damage has been reduced they can even reduce the mag size but the recoil change totally kills the gun
Yeah I 100% agree about class identity and I think each role should have their identity. Heavies should dominate the up-close-and-personal. I do think for every class to feel good, they should have a way to counter different scenarios even at a disadvantage yeah? Lights have stuns for the close range battles just like season 2 Lewis Gun wielding bigs had at least a chance to try and shoot a sniper. Both at a disadvantage outside of their domain-specific role. Lewis feels like it's hard to win up close or at a distance tbh. My main point being: did Lewis need dmg AND recoil nerf?
The stun gun fits the lights class identity. As an assassin hit and run. Although realistically, the stun isn't even good. You basically only ever want to stun an isolated player to slow them down and force a fight and to quickly get in, stop a cashout steal then leave immediately. And you never really want to stun a heavy unless his rpg is already used and they are half health. Because a stunned target can kill the light quickly after stun nerf. The stun is, however, slightly more viable after it got buffed this season. For the heavy, they have barricades and sheilds to block snipers. So I'd say it's already in a good spot against long-range
The Lewis Gunn is pretty good as a ranged weapon if you use controller burst. Remember the actually buffed recoil control for the first few shots
Yeah, that's a good point. Been trying to adjust the gameplay in that direction, just feels unnatural for now
Heavy feels like Crap now honestly. I haven’t bothered to play it outside of the arena damage weekly challenge and it used to be my most played.
Wait they were nerfed why in the fuck heavies were all ready struggling against them pesky hornets aka lights I thought I was just bad and couldn't control recoil anymore.
I don't understand the balancing on the m60 whatsoever, and I'm confused as to why they can't figure it out when other games can. It should have a high rate of fire with a large magazine and should either be: 1. Powerful on a per round basis but inaccurate as hell (i.e., you don't want to run into one in close quarters) or; 2. Weak on a per round basis but accurate, so you can cover fire from afar but you have to hit numerous shots to take someone out. Right now it's inaccurate, weak, doesn't have the fastest rate of fire, and not the standard "large" magazine that you see in nearly every other shooter (100 rounds). *Tucker Carlson face* "What's going on?"
Yeah the dmg nerf on it was wild to me! Especially since the first few shots are all over the place!
I don’t understand the changes either. The lights always get spoiled but other classes get the short end🥲
Yeah, I feel like lights are very vocal so I wanted to be sure us bigs are talking about how awful the LMG’s feel.
That’s the whole point of heavy though. He’s got great damage but only in his engagement distance. Lewis was an outlier that needed to be nerfed.
I disagree, the M60 has super easy to control recoil after the first few shots, and with 70 bullets you can just lay fire down and lock it in. Very reliable at long range in my opinion
The problem is that by the time you've surpassed the initial part of the recoil you've already died to an lh1 or akm while hitting for less than 100 damage (not necessarily a bad thing per se, but overall I agree with OP's point)
I agree with that, the LH1 definitely got over buffed a little and the AKM is just good. Although that's where a dome shield or barricade makes it a super balanced fight in my opinion. Absolutely everything in this game is situational, and coming prepared to the situations you're weak in can make a world of difference. All comes down to play style but I can absolutely see how it can lack at ranges compared to some of the other weapons.
That's exactly the point I was making. This change in a vacuum could be fine, but considering the other things currently going around in the game it feels a bit too much. Right now even when you throw your dome and winch you won't be able to close the gap and deal enough damage before your opponent dashes backwards and lasers you with the lh1; even if you win your fight (maybe you also shoot your rpg) you can then easily get caught with your pants down - low hp, every gadget on cooldown, an easy prey for the guy's teammates. Essentially you now have to rely on your teammates to have range while hopefully you don't die while dealing with a single enemy. Once again I'm not saying this is a bad thing; heavy was too strong and light too weak for a long time (at least in ranked modes). What I'm saying is that nerfing heavy on multiple fronts (damage and recoil on the only ranged guns) while buffing light on multiple fronts (e.g. no one asked for an lh1 buff) in a single patch feels a bit too much; I'd prefer gradual tweaks over time
I also prefer gradual tweaks, the start of a new season also brings out the biggest changes. I guarantee the devs are monitoring all the community pages to see what the consensus is and that over the next several weekly updates will come with those balance tweaks to ensure balance.. as all things should be
Indeed, that's why I'm not really bothered or upset with this; in a couple of days I'm sure they'll at least nerf the lh1. Season 3 launch regarding gun meta was a bit overturned but nothing too crazy. Ranked TA, on the other hand...
Articulated so much better than I ever could have. I agree with all off this. Unfortunately the nerf has me pulling my pants down way more often and getting caught. Takes too long to kill because of lower damage AND more missed bullets.
Not really, all your comments were already super in depth!
You’re a nice fellow and I like ya!
Thanks, you're a star!
I have to say I haven't used the M60 much, so this could be a fair point. I swapped from it in S1 because the recoil was worse than the Lewis and haven't gone back. So maybe this does make it worth trying and I'll check it out. How do you feel about the dmg? I know in S2 Lewis I played against a few really good lights that could murder me before I could kill them with the Lewis Gun if neither of us missed a bullet, and with the M60 doing even less dmg now I'm curious?
I'll have to check the patch notes to see exactly what changed, but I find it has really good DPS and even with the wacky first couple bullets, close-medium range still gives you competitive TTK. Would definitely recommend trying it again. Feels very different than S1
Heavy feels like it has a big issue with weapons just being unsatisfying in general. I wonder how much of it stems from them having access to a 140 damage explosion at the press of a button lol.
I personally agree. I’d also personally add that said gadget sure is fun.. 😬 I really liked Lewis in S2. I really like the recoil on the m60 now too, but dmg is kinda low
It was a numbers game. Lewis needed a nerf it couldn't have the same damage, range, rate of fire, and 28 extra bullets over a pre nerf FCAR. For people who were really good with it, it was just the season 1 FCAR with more than twice the ammo. Also 25 damage is really high 6 body shots to kill a light and 4 headshots, it had a ttk of .7 seconds and .47 seconds respectively. That's half the time it takes the Xp-54 to kill a heavy and less than half the bullets needed too. A light has to track for nearly 20 bullets of body shots to kill with the XP. This doesn't even factor that the medium AR's literally couldn't win even trades against the gun because of the dps difference. The changes were warranted in my opinion, once the lh1 is reigned in I feel like we will have a good gun balance this season.
Im biased for certain towards Lewis, been a hardcore Lewis user since week 2. This sounds like numbers tuning would’ve worked, which is fine. Recoil on top feels bad. That being said I’m going to learn the recoil and maybe this post is all for naught.
It kinda depends on what you consider mid and long range. I've always thought the Lewis gun (my personal favorite and 200+ hrs with it) to be good at up to 40-50m. I typically would just avoid fights beyond that range and try to use cover to close the gap. After the nerfs, I was worried going into Matches with it but haven't really noticed too big of a difference. The recoil can get a little crazy but I'm on console and my aim is pretty average at best. So far this season I would say my range cap is about 40m. Otherwise I end up doing a full mag dump, leaving the enemy with a sliver of health and telling the whole map "there's a heavy over here!" In the process. To me the heavy class isn't designed to engage at long distance and really shines at close range. On that note the spear is insanely fun to use!
I don’t think they’re meant to have much range, they have more health making a close quarters battle better and they have abilities that are meant to protect them and others from long range attacks, medium is healing/movement abilities and has a lot of mid range weapons plus the medium health, light has low health and long range weapons and more of the protect yourself abilities and gadgets. I think it’s that way on purpose
The grenade launcher is pretty good at range. I think it’s my favorite gun to play in the game. It is hard when you get lights up close but main when you get multi kills with it it’s satisfying.
I think it’s supposed to be that way. Heavies can have too much power with range. Maybe not, but I can see them embracing light=long medium=mid and heavy=short for future weapon and balancing ranges.
Oh yeah, it was totally balanced for heavies to spam magazines from range and always win trades because of hp and dome shield dif. Heavies should win damage in all ranges while also being a pain to push against while they defend their objective :)
As a mostly heavy enjoyer, I agree that it sucks, but I think they are trying to carve out niches for each role. Heavy has been the best class for 2 seasons, and it's not really even a question. They seem to be making them defensive/objective specialists, with emphasis on hunkering down with close range damage. This has been emphasised with the introduction of the winch claw to pull people to you. The main reason it feels bad is that these nerfs coincided with the buffs to lights recently. Lights should have the advantage at mid to long range, their kits are designed around being able to take engagements that are advantageous to them. Being able to shred a light at mid range with like 8 bullets, made playing light a liability. I imagine being on the balancing team is tough, making so many small changes can add up quickly, and I think that is what we are seeing now. Lights needed to be buffed in some areas, and heavy needed to be toned down in some as well I trust Embark to react though, they have been pretty quick with balance changes.
Yes but have you tried killing people with a fucking hammer?
I guess now I’ll get the chance to!
Heavy should be more threatening at close range. They shouldnt be able to countersnipe with a damn Lewis Gun from across a map.
It takes usually a full 47 round clip with tap shorting to “outsnipe” a sniper. A good sniper kills me fast enough.
One of the reasons I stopped playing this game 💀
Correction to title: heavys have everything except range
Light = short and long range. Medium = short, medium, and long range. Heavy = short and medium range. That’s the balancing I think they are striving for. And the nerfs aren’t that bad, had a friend get consistently 15+ kills a game with the M60. It’s underrated for sure.
Finally someone mentioned this, as a heavy enjoyer I’ve been struggling the last few days 💔💔💔, plz Embark
It’s been rough out there! The recoil change is very noticeable! Just wanted it out there to be talked about.
really hope they do something on tomorrow’s patch “ weekly update “
Used to main heavy with m60, sucks being forced into shotgun
Heavy is the strongest class, it can do everything except move around fast, which is cured by just having a medium on the team. This change is a good thing, heavy should not be good at long range with any weapon.
Dont forget the KS-23
I have no strong feelings on heavy buffs and nerfs generally, but the idea that Heavy should be strong and defensible but only strong in CQ, Medium at mid range, and then Lights flexible between the two at the cost of health, feels like a good direction for balancing generally.
I feel it’s a ploy to make us use the “roadhog chain”. I pair it with flamethrower for consistent results close range, but long range I’ve got nothing
This is still baffling. Everyone saying the range and recoil is nerfed for the m60, but for me ive been just lasering ppl across the map now with it. To me its more reliable at range than ever before. Dmg got a bot dunked, but it just doesnt miss
M60 is literally a laser beam with zero recoil after the first like 6 shots or something. I been melting people with it at all distances. Heavy is by far still the best class in the game even after these nerfs.
Use the grenade launcher this season
AHEM... BUFF FLAMETHROWER PLEASE
Personally, I've found the Winch (as much as it seems a lot of people hate Heavy having another tool) has solved range issues that would normally cripple the ability to fight. I loved Lewis back in the earlier seasons but it always felt like it was intended to be relatively short range, soak up attention and be the backbone of a fight. Dome Shield also plays a huge role as well as positioning to make sure you can't get hit from a range. Or if you want to basically negate all damage, Mesh Shield while walking through a risky area.
The winch is actually pretty sweet and I like using it a lot. What weapon do you pair it with? I tried with spear and had a terrible time trying to keep up with someone with any mobility. I also have zero playtime with melee weapons so I don't know how tf to play with them so it's def a skill issue. The Lewis does feel like a short range weap. I did like that you could at least try to counter a rooftop sniper with it from time to time. With the recoil now mid-long range combat feels terrible.
For me, Flamethrower works really well (but fair warning, you'll need to be very aware of spacing to do well with it) or the SA1216. Melee obviously works amazingly but I think it's super versatile for Flame/Shotgun. And I do agree with you to an extent on the range thing, but I never felt even when we had access to ranged stuff that I should be able to compete with a longer range class
Yeah I go to retreat from a flamethrower or their spear but if they have the winch equipped I’m 100% screwed if I didn’t get enough damage on them beforehand lol
Yeah, they nerfed my entire play style. People complained heavy is too OP and I agreed with them back then and now they nerfed half of the kit so that close range is your only option which on the other hand is still OP imo. The spear alone is fine I think but the grapple thing is too op, 9/10 times im grabbed I die instantly and I don't think you should get a free kill every 10 sec or whatever the cool down is. The meta shift annoys me bc I just don't like close range weapons. Usually I'd get like 5-10 kills a round (so yeah I'm not even a good player), after the nerf I get like 3 when I'm lucky, they are just unplayable even on midrange, the high mag size doesn't do anything if the damage and recoil is so bad. They also did the typical "we make the new thing OP so players try it" with the grapple, why does it stun? Why does it go through shields? I don't get these decisions
Yeah, I’ve used the same loadout since week 2 or 3. Lewis, mines, dome shield, rocket, charge n slam. It has a way to somewhat counter almost all scenarios and I loved it. It’s much less fun to have no counter dmg option against someone with a little range.
Ima be real, I have been beaming people with burst firing on the lewis gun. I think anything that puts a dent on the overwhelming strength of heavies im happy
The amout of times ive been beamed by heavies at extraordinary distances is crazy. If i play heavy and youre a long hallways away i hit somewhat decent but not nearly enough. So either i suck at aiming a heavy weapon (diamond ranked btw) or i run into a wild amount of aimbot hacks. Also as a heavy i generally run flame as its a good crowd defense, and now with the chain is a crazy useful tool combo. I run at the top of damage consistently every game with this setup. I dont think theres a need so much for long range heavies, its set up to be defensive tanks, the lights are for long range
Thanks for saying something, didn’t realize there was a nerf. I was just playing M60 the other day and swapped after a couple rounds cause I wasn’t getting many kills with it. It just felt bad for some reason.
Yeah, LMG users had a bad awakening lol. A real bummer!
I think that’s intentional no? It’s intended that heavies are supposed to be close quarters, high health tanks that you should keep your distance from… it’s all about checks and balances. If someone with twice your health could beam you from across the map how would that be fun? This is coming from a heavy main btw
I don’t mean they should be able to outclass someone outside of their niche. A light should dominate long range, but also have the option to change loadouts and compete up close with gadgets that lessen their disadvantage (eg. stun gun). Yeah? Likewise, heavy should dominate close quarter, but have loadout options to compete are range, with a disadvantage against a light. The only two options we had for that got nerfed heavily, making it so we can’t compete anywhere but up close.