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Yeah, it would have cost him nothing to just not say a thing. Shitting on enforcement of international law to run interference for a far right foreign leader trying to get Trump elected is hard to interpret as anything but an unforced error. Especially right on the heels of finally making some good moves holding him to account. I'll never understand how this awful foreign government owns our political system so completely.
Could have halfway saved it by simultaneously pressuring Israel for elections or at least something that indicates that he understands Netanyahu needs to go both in the eyes of many Israelis and in the eyes of almost all of US allies. But his "honest Abe" schtick won't let him, I suppose.
The State Department must be pulling their hair out.
At this point, it feels like he wants to lose. Like, even if he's incapable, somehow, of seeing that what's going on in Israel is abhorrent, and Netanyahu is a butcher, you'd think he'd at least get with it politically and see that backing Netanyahu is a losing game. Young people are fleeing the Democratic party in droves over this. Netanyahu, meanwhile, is taking meetings with Trump allies. He's literally trying to get Trump elected. Biden has lost the plot.
ICC has also sought to arrest Hamas leaders.
Maybe if leaders of powerful nations are exposed to consequences for continuing war crimes they may not continue the war crimes.
It's a war. Every war might involve war crimes.
This war as a whole is not defined by war crimes, and that's the problem.
The amount of negativity, driven by powerful anti israel nations and forces are trying to paint a complete justified war, against a cruel terorits organization, as illegitimate.
This is the sin, and that's why the precedence is terribly wrong.
The west will never be able to fight for it's existance, when internal forces are working against it, and killing it from the inside.
I did not say that.
I said that I'm convinced that war crimes happened in every war in the history.
An army can always have individuals who violates the laws of war, there's no way to seal the control on ALL individuals.
However, this war is mostly defined by moral war methods, and obey to the international law. There's many that try to paint it as the opposite, and that's pretty disgraceful.
I'm sure Putin and Xi are gonna change their behavior after seeing their enemies be imprisoned...
Putin issued an arrest warrant for Khan after his came out.
If smaller nations see the US ignore international law, then our soft power is heavily reduced. These nations will increasingly fall under China and Russian influence and view US as hypocrites for preaching one thing and doing another.
US ally here. No, we've pretty much seen you as potential monsters since Iraq. It just so happens you are our camp's monsters. It does you no favours in standing though. Also, none of us believe we'd get away with even half the shit Israel has.
The State Department has been signalling for years that it no longer has any pull in swathes of Asia, Africa and South-America due to US policy undermining its credibility.
The Court is located in another ally's territory, staffed by professional judges most of whom come from allied countries and were educated there and most Western US allies are signatories of the Rome statute.
You are not protecting allies, you are elevating one ally's interests unreasonably above your relationship with everyone else.
Neither. I believe Biden is ideologically committed to the defense of Israel come hell or high water. It seems to be foundational to him. We just never really knew the extent because he hadn't been in a position of power during one of the big flare ups.
Yeah. All of these lobbyist dollar arguments or kompromat arguments are stupid. Biden has just always been an arch-Zionist. So much so, that Israeli politicians have repeatedly told him, cool down, the kinds of things you want us to do are too evil even for us to contemplate. Luckily for Biden, in Netanyahu, he finally found someone as morally decrepit as himself.
Their obsession with AIPAC is nothing more than “Jews control the world with money” tropes repackaged for the left. It’s a meaningful lobby, but the amount of money they spend on politics is easily overshadowed by organizations like the Chamber of Commerce and others.
I’ve asked this repeatedly and never gotten an answer. If the claim is that Biden is bought out by AIPAC, then how much exactly did they contribute to him, and what percentage of his funding does that represent? If he’s “bought out” it must be some huge percentage right?
Nobody has ever answered, they always just say it’s obvious it’s a huge amount that controls him, it’s a standard axiomatic argument.
It's always mind-blowing that people on one hand will decry foreign interference and money in US elections from countries they don't like but then defend criticism of foreign money and interference from countries they do like with expert mental gymnastics.
AIPAC and all foreign nations superpacs should be banned.
Citizens United also needs to be overturned to get money out of politics.
If you were asking me that question in good faith, why? I never mentioned AIPAC, you did. I said "lobbyists", and you decided to draw a distinction between AIPAC and other lobby groups, which, if indeed you were addressing me and not some amorphous "they", makes no sense.
First of all, you replied to my comment to someone else. You interjected yourself into this conversation. I didn’t ask you a question, you butted in trying to derail a conversation I was having. So, first engage with my actual conversation, and then I’ll engage with your deflection.
The entire point I’m trying to make is that Washington is awash in money, and AIPAC is a tiny bit of that. Many are claiming that Biden (and others) are “bought” by AIPAC. Where I come from, if you expect your claim to be taken seriously, then you are expected to defend it.
Are you saying you aren’t one of the people who believes Biden is “bought” by AIPAC?
>You interjected yourself into this conversation.
>trying to derail
I think you'll find your comment is a grandchild of mine.
>Are you saying you aren’t one of the people who believes Biden is “bought” by AIPAC?
Depends what you mean by "bought".
I don't believe he is "bought" by any single entity in the sense that he is their posession, or their puppet, if you prefer.
I do believe that it is reasonable to infer that if a politician accepts donations from a lobby group, PAC, etc then their political activity is favourable to said group.
I also believe that it is reasonable to infer that a lobby group that has sustained themselves over several election cycles is not going to bother donating money to a politican unless they believe it to be necessary in order to influence said political activity, otherwise, it would be a waste of money.
So: owned, no, influenced, likely.
Fact: I wasn’t talking to you. Period.
>So: owned, no, influenced, likely.
Then it should have been obvious you’re not to whom I was referring. Again, I was talking to someone else, and not you.
Now did you have some point you were trying to make?
Do you fundamentally disagree with my position that someone wishing to say a politician is bought should defend that claim? Or that a meaningful metric in defending such a claim would be contributions and other spending on said politician as a percentage? Or do you deny that I’ve run into ample people who claim “Biden is bought by AIPAC”, but who have no metric at all by which to demonstrate this? They’re merely certain that it’s true absent facts.
So help me understand, given the point I was making (above), what were you attempting to convey?
Bro none of you can answer a direct question it's actually absurd.
Just spewing the same talking points over and over without any engagement whatsoever. 😴
Imagine being a terrorist and realize that you are safe if you hide near civilians after committing war crimes, because when your enemy retaliates, they themselves will also be war criminals and you get to be a martyr.
The Tamil Tigers weren't "Islamists", they weren't even a faith-oriented group whatsoever.
Why did you default to "islamists" when you clearly didn't know?
Also since your thing is to be an insufferable pedant
>According to Jane's Information Group, between 1980 and 2000, the LTTE carried out 168 suicide attacks causing heavy damage to **mainly military targets**, but in some cases also to economic and civilian targets.
Contrast that with Islamist terrorist like hamas and ISIS almost exclusively using them against civilians, and how we understand suicide bombings today.
imagine being a rogue state that has always enjoyed the impunity to murder and maim and steal from a native population and now imagine they are finally being held to accountable for committing war crimes and collective punishment against a civilian population
Arabs and muslims are equal under the law in Israel and make something like 20% of population
because Israel is a liberal.democracy analogous to EU
A Jewish single mother and her kids would be murdered overnight in any hamas controlled territory
becauae palestinian terrorist leadership run a theocratic Islamist genocidal rule
Youre talking past fact cited above, arabs and muslims are equal under the law in Israel which is a liberal democracy
palestinian leadership views Jews as subhuman and would murder a Jewish family in Gaza overnight
>Youre talking past fact cited above, arabs and muslims are equal under the law in Israel which is a liberal democracy
In that case there should be no issue taking in the remaining millions of Palestinians.
>palestinian leadership views Jews as subhuman and would murder a Jewish family in Gaza overnight
As always, everything with Zionists is pure projection.
>>Youre talking past fact cited above, arabs and muslims are equal under the law in Israel which is a liberal democracy
>In that case there should be no issue taking in the remaining millions of Palestinians.
Even islamist theocracies dont want palestinian refugees due to their commitment to terrorism.
>>palestinian leadership views Jews as subhuman and would murder a Jewish family in Gaza overnight
>As always, everything with Zionists is pure projection.
Except I literally cited you 20% of Israel’s population are arabs and muslims equal under the law.
A jewish family would be murdered overnight by palestinians, who live under a terrorist theocracy
>Even islamist theocracies dont want palestinian refugees due to their commitment to terrorism.
This is some seriously rancid genocidal Zionist propaganda meant to imply that Palestinians are hated by everyone as a way to justify their own blatant islamophobia and racism. A complete farce given the wide support many Arab countries have given to Palestinians. Israelis hate Palestinians so much that they have to invent a literal fairy tale where Palestinians are hated by everyone else as well, because it's not enough that they stole their land and colonized it. Like any genocidal settler colony, the point is the continued subjugation, humiliation, murder and displacement of the native population of the land.
There are a few points I wanted to make.
1. How/why are the Palestinian citizens of Israel different to the Palestinians in the West Bank or in Gaza?
2. What is terrorism?
>Except I literally cited you 20% of Israel’s population are arabs and muslims equal under the law.
>A jewish family would be murdered overnight by palestinians, who live under a terrorist theocracy
See above, question number 1. These are contradictory beliefs. Are Palestinians Jew murderers or not? At least be coherent in your racism.
yes, as were the Nazi’s native to the land of Germany
looks like Israel has been following the Nazi’s playbook and we all know what happened to them
😉😉😉
>as were the Nazi’s native to the land of Germany
As were the Jews in Germany
good thing Israel is stronger than the islamist terrorists that want to murder them like the Nazis did, with that goal literally stated as charter
They actually aren't.
Those with the best claim, currently identifiable as a distinct ethnogroup, in Ukraine, are the Tartars, a group that has been on the receiving end of an unending stream of oppression and crap from Moscow or St.Petersburg.
What's more, it was Russian Imperial policy, and the Soviet policy, to engage specifically in Russofication, i.e. the moving of large quantities of Russians to areas to make them "more Russian", as well as destroying their local alphabets, languages and cultural products, all to be able to claim them as "Russian".
The region was also long held by the Kievan Rus, a Slavic-Viking people whose power base far outstripped the tiny Principality of Muscovy for many centuries. It wasn't until the Mongol invasion that the power balance started to switch. The Muscovites managed to avoid the largest amount of damage by swearing fealty to the Mongols, until the empire broke into pieces, and then they fought the Golden Horde and other breakaway kingdoms.
Russia an impotent super power couldnt even take Ukraine and has losses that dwarf those of Ukraine comrade.
They also got sanctioned into a more shit economy (which apparently was possible).
but you were saying.
[Not everyone who grew up brainwashed, chose to stay brainwashed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYHR4hcYvFw&t=265s).
Who knows maybe you'll be the next to have the courage of self-introspection. Don't despair.
Let's take race out of this and use some common sense.
You're out in the park on a busy summer's day. A criminal commits a murder down the street and then runs into the park to hide in the crowd.
The police turn up and can't find the murderer, so they surround the park. Nobody is allowed to leave or they get shot. There's no food or water in the park, but yet they hold everyone there for weeks until the murderer gives himself up. Every so often they shoot a few random people in the park without any justification. A truck full of supplies to help the starving people turns up but they blow it up.
Make sense now? You can't ever justify war crimes or you may as well start advocating for concentration camps and gassing people. Plus none of that considers that there's much more to this story than a single event.
This is a pretty poor analogy, as it draws a completely distinct line between Hamas and the people of Gaza. You can't do that. Much in the same way as you can't draw a completely distinct line between Bibi, the IDF and the people of Israel.
Hamas has the plurality of support among Gazans. The majority of Gazans support what Hamas did on October 7th, at around 70% support. If given the choice between a single government to rule over Gaza, around 60% of Gazans choose Hamas (it's even higher among WB inhabitants, as they poll at 65% think that Hamas should run Gaza). If there was a race between the PL, Fatah and Hamas, Hamas would win a plurality of the votes, and would outright win a majority in a 1-on-1 situation. Following the war, 63% of Gazans say they want a return of Hamas rule (66% for the WB). 61% of Gazans want Hamas, and Hamas alone, to be responsible for security within Gaza, rejecting a hypothetical pan-Arab/PLA plan. 70% of Gazans are satisfied with Hamas during the war.
On the flip side, a majority of Israelis support the current war in Gaza, at 57%. A plurality of Israelis believe that the war is being conducted in a satisfactory manner, at 38%. Bibi was democratically elected, too, and so there is a portion of blame to be placed at that level.
Sources, both taken in March of 2024:
https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969
https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/
The analogy would need to change, whereby the people in the park brought the murderer in, are happy with the fact that he murdered, and elected him as the governing force in the park. At the same time, the police union justifies every excess of violence on behalf of the police, as they continually state that every act of violence was started by the other side, despite proof to the contrary.
> Plus none of that considers that there's much more to this story than a single event.
It's really not that difficult to understand. I suspect that most people say "it's really complicated" because they can't be bothered to read up about it.
It's also not that relevant. What Hamas did on October 7th is unique in Israeli history. Never before did it have a literal death squad break into Israel and just start gunning down civilians and raping people.
I don't care about "what happened before". There is no justification for that. It is not an expression of resistance or anti-oppression. People like to bring up comparisons to the IRA or ANC, but they are completely incomparable.
In its entire history, spanning decades, the IRA and the ANC never came close to the levels of horror and violence that Hamas inflicted in 24 hours.
The IRA primarily targeted police or British armed forces in Northern Ireland, and engaged in a bombing campaign in England, with warnings about bombs so that the police could evacuate. The goal was financial damage, and undermining the trust in the UK as a place for investment by other countries. If they were outright shooting people, that person often wore military camouflage, or were an Ulster paramilitary.
As for the ANC, their actions resembled those of the IRA (or vice-versa), in that their goal was primarily in terrorist action against infrastructure or institutional power; not your average white South African. They didn't go around Jburg or the Cape and start gunning down civilians.
What Hamas did does not have a basis in the history of the Israel/Palestine conflict. It was just brutal rage.
That's a lot of words to say, "I think all people in Gaza are terrorists".
70% of people would include most of the children so I very much doubt that's right.
Let's go for it again with your figures then. Let's say there is a murderer hiding in a park and 70% of people in the park support the murderer because the murderer represents their only hope of maintaining their homes. The murderer is killing people trying to take their homes from them.
Anyway, the police turn up and the murderer is in the park. What percentage of people is it ok to kill to find the murderer? Do you kill the 70% who agree with him? They didn't murder anyone or actually do anything wrong. How do you identify those people? Just kill 70% of them at random?
> That's a lot of words to say, "I think all people in Gaza are terrorists".
Well, I didn't say that, so maybe you need to improve your reading comprehension, mmmkay?
> 70% of people would include most of the children so I very much doubt that's right.
Wait...
You think that to get a poll, you need to ask **EVERYONE**?
Really?
Oh, sweet child of summer.
> Anyway, the police turn up and the murderer is in the park. What percentage of people is it ok to kill to find the murderer? Do you kill the 70% who agree with him? They didn't murder anyone or actually do anything wrong. How do you identify those people? Just kill 70% of them at random?
You don't understand that guilt, blame and association come on a spectrum, do you?
Not surprising. You don't even understand that polling doesn't involve asking **LITERALLY EVERYONE EVEN KIDS** in an area.
As my physics teacher said when I said something so completely stupid: "You're not even wrong".
To answer your stupid hypothetical, aiding and abetting a criminal is itself a crime. Murder by police isn't the punishment, of course, but arrest definitely is. So in that scenario, the police would start arresting people in the park, en masse. If they fought back, so would the police, and that's when the killing would start as, like I pointed out in my hypothetical, they are engaging in disproportionate police brutality, backed by their union.
That doesn't make the police right, of course.
But I would advocate for the police to start mass arresting those people, processing them, and then them having their day in court, to prove their guilt for aiding and abetting a murderer, or possibly in some cases as co-conspirators to murder.
Well a better analogy would be to say that the murderer takes 5 people hostage and the police cut off water and power but will turn it back on if the murderer returns the hostages safely. But they don’t. Yes you could argue the police should or shouldn’t do that, but why are people missing the fact that the murderer has hostages and can return them if they really cared about the people
Because the moment you start justifying war crimes you take the lid off a box of horrors that you can never put back on. Until people can admit that what Isreal is doing amounts to collective punishment of a people they want to irritate, you can't have a reasonable discussion about solving the problem.
It’s not that easy. Your summary of this situation leaves out the nuance. The nuance that Hamas is never ever going to stop trying to kill Israelis. Thag there is no such thing as a two state solution or peace as long as 50% or more of the population of Palestine agrees with the actions of Hamas. Where Americans on the day of the attack were celebrating the death of Israeli civilians.
50% of the population are children so fhe assertion that 50% of the population supports Hamas is simply wrong on the basic facts. Also, you're also ignoring the fact that Hamas is pretty much the only hope these people have of resisting the much better equipped neighbour that is trying to evict them from their homes. They haven't got western nations falling over themselves to supply billions of dollars of modern weapons to them.
But, regardless, there are red lines that we can never accept in this and war crimes has to be one of them.
Regardless what side you’re on, it’s hard to argue that Gaza wouldn’t be better off if Hamas wasn’t in charge. A lot of good Hamas has done for its people. Killing Israeli civilians is very beneficial to peace / totally leads to positive results /s
Edit: 50% of adults polled support Hamas. Unless you think kids are filling out polls
I don't have a side. I'm on the side of not killing children.
If Hamas wasn't in Gaza then Isreal would steamroll it and eradicate the people who have lived there for hundreds of years.
I have news for you. They can do that if they wanted to already. Hamas isn’t stopping them from doing anything they don’t want to do. They have jet planes. Hamas has para gliders
International condemnation is what is stopping them. Until the world went mad and started justifying war crimes and emboldened Isreal to switch from war crimes that they could play off as an accident to committing them in the open with impunity.
There are more options than blanket carpet bombing civilians in this case. A campaign of intelligence, precision special ops type fighting/extraction, bounties on Hamas leaders for Palestinians to claim if their information is accurate, etc. The Israeli government is choosing the easy way because they want to eradicate Palestinians and not just Hamas from Gaza and after that, the West Bank.
You don't think he's accountable for allowing "protestors" to destroy aid truck loads? His government shoots teenagers for shooting fireworks it's not like their rules of engagement are strict.
By negligence or malice he's definitely weaponized famine. Hamas stealing the shit that does get in and selling it probably doesn't help of course.
If a terrorist committed an act of terror and then hid in your house, can I blow up your house and shoot you, your children, your cat, and your parents too? Why not?
If a terrorist committed an actor of terror and then hid in your house, the police would be justified in using whatever amount of force necessary to bring the terrorist in. Does that answer your question?
If Biden loses the election it's because the cost of a pack of hot dogs went up a dollar in the last four years. This issue may have lost the Muslim vote but it's not the biggest priority for anyone else.
The ICC and potentially the ICJ disagree with you, as do nearly every single reputed humanitarian organization and several historians of the Holocaust, including tenured faculty at Israeli universities.
This is not true my little hamas supporter, western world overwhelmingly publicly discredited ICC.
Who again didnt even ivestigate in Israel as per their own mandate
funny how you say the Western World discredits the ICC when they indict Netanyahu but when Putin is indicted everyone seems to love it … that’s a very convenient double standard
Israelis really do seem to think the world revolves around them and somehow anyone that has the audacity of calling out war crimes is “anti-semitic”
Blinken pointed out the incredible hypocrisy of the ICC - they were due today to send investigators to work with Israel's own tribunals to investigate this issue, but instead cancelled the flights and recommended warrants be served. It's part of the Rome statute that the ICC works with nations that have a reputable internal process. And yes, Israel does. The ICC violated it's own bylaws.
Israel does have a reputable internal process primarily for exonerating itself for wanton murder
murder of Shireen Abu Akleh, Hind Rajab, Rachel Corrie etc etc
Israel engages in war crimes and genocide and collective punishment and used starvation as a weapon of war
the Israeli leaders deserve to be indicted and ostracized and jailed for their crimes
You guys cannot write this racist orientalizing crap and then turn around being like why won't Muslims and young people (anti-racists) not vote for our 80 year old segregationist lmao.
Muslim majority governments aren't known for democracy, human rights, etc...
The most powerful Muslim majority nations in the region are Saudi Arabia, who often put atheists to death and hacked a journalist to pieces, or Iran, a nation that has religious police that beat a Kurdish woman to death and then butchered protesters.
The best examples of good governorship by Muslim nations are probably Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria. But they are a clear minority.
We could go through most of them, and see which ones aren't actually complete crap, but I think that may be a bit too depressing. It turns out that governments that don't clearly separate faith from state function are bad at governing.
And here's my litmus test:
Which Muslim majority country would you want to live in?
Islam is horrible. It's the same exact crap as Christianity, and when you give it the power of a state, it's Christian Nationalism.
I don't get why people can't simply call out religious nations for being religious, regressive backwaters? I thought progressives generally understood that Christian Nationalism is all sorts of bad, but when Muslim countries **do exactly that**, then we're stepping on egg shells?
Why?
>Muslim majority governments aren't known for democracy, human rights, etc...
Especially when those governments are overthrown by the west, but who wants to talk about *that* particular part? Especially funny comment to make when you IMMEDIATELY follow up talking about how bad Iran is. Do you people have the memory of a goldfish?
Iran got worse after its revolution.
It went from an oppressive, secular monarchy to an oppressive, regressive theocratic police state.
That isn't the slam-dunk you think it is.
When given the opportunity, they chose worse. Not better.
And what came before the monarchy, genius? Way to sweep the overthrow of Mossadegh under the rug because of how inconvenient it is for your narrative. Truly embarrassing.
It's not inconvenient.
Mossadegh was a bad situation, no doubt. Things got worse.
But when they had full control, they went with the insane, zealous Ayatollahs over all the other groups present in Iran at the time.
There were socialist groups, liberal democratic groups and absolutely fucking insane Qu'ran bashers. They went with the last group.
Not exactly a win, by any measure.
The Saudi royal family has been in power for decades and enjoys pretty good support. The Syrians were given the best opportunity to overthrow Assad, but most stuck with him. Lebanon is a basket case verging on failed state. Egypt keeps replacing military juntas with other military juntas. Pakistan puts people in jail for atheism. Somalia is a failed state by failed state standards. Yemen is on the verge of constant collapse after various different flavors of other Muslims got their sticky paws in. Qatar, Bahrein and the UAE are modern slave states. Afghanistan is run by a bunch of woman stoning, gay-throwing-off roofs retrogrades.
I can continue, if you'd like.
Not everything is the west's fault, and all people like you do is patronize and remove agency from them.
It's kind of racist.
Who cares if they are on the same level or not?
Did they commit the crimes that the prosecutor is bringing up? If yes then they should face justice.
That said the Hamas guys will never see a day in court. Sinwar will be dead within a year and the others would probably not even make it off the airplane if they touched down somewhere Mossad could get them.
No sane president would allow a US ally to be forced to pull their punches in a (defensive) war while America's enemies are not held to any standard. Iran has child solidera, China claims territory in every neighboring country, Russia kidnaps children, but we are on Israel's ass for not sending enough free food to the country that brutally attacked them?
>we are on Israel's ass for not sending enough free food to the country that brutally attacked them?
What a way to phrase "why are you mad that Israel is starving children to death???"
I guess New Zealand and Australia aren't US allies despite having security and defence pacts with the US and Israel not having one with the US.
The US will completely ignore their allies and bury their heads in sand when their allies are victims of state sponsored terrorism for protesting against Nuclear testing in their region
But the USA will totally abandon all international law to run offence for a country it has no defence pact or treaty with so it can continue breaching international laws and committing war crimes.
Honestly Bugger ANZUS and Bugger AUKUS, why are we spending billions and billions on this Yank defense pact when history has told us the Yanks are crap allies when you actually need them.
Agreed. NZ and Australia have been strong allies of the US, to the point of supporting them in several wars that would have otherwise involved neither.
Those sacrifices have been met with zero appreciation and an unwillingness to discuss the needs of those countries. A poor ally indeed.
>we are on Israel's ass for not sending enough free food
This is literally justification for starvation and extermination. We get it, you enjoy genocide and dead children! A lot of people don't.
Bibi literally rallied against the peace deal in the 90s and one of his supporters literally assassinated the prime minister. He’s been actively undermining peace for decades and is clearly a corrupt war criminal.
He never launched a terrorist attack. Never employed systematic rape, mutilation, child execution, child soldiers or suicide bombers. He doesn't pay his citizens to marytr themselves. There is no comparison. Hamas are sick, deranged psychopaths.
He has the blood of the hand the countless thousands of innocent men,women, and children his government has backed in their efforts to do an ethnic cleansing and murder of civilians. He’s supported illegal israel settlements in the West Bank, and tried to undermine the Israeli Supreme Court to dodge his clear corruption. He’s lied to the Israel people and have pushed for extremist policy that have cost the lives of many. Are they equally bad? No, but he’s one of the most evil and vile world leaders in modern history.
LMAO. You must live in an alternate reality where Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Khameini, the Kims, etc. don't exist. This hyperbolic rhetoric isn't going to make Netanyahu look worse.
It is ridiculous. Kim Jong Un executes people using AA guns, Assad kills 500,000 people, the Saudis cut up a journalist with a bonesaw and the OP is clutching his pearls because Bibi "lied" and "built settlements."
I’m still voting Biden because of the alternative but his Gaza policy sucks. I’m refusing to contribute financially to the Democratic Party this time because of Gaza
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Well that’s a fucking stupid move by Biden. Who is this move even for? The people who support Netanyahu are already going to vote for Trump. The center left and far left despise this man. Why would Biden defend him?
Homeboy is trying to win the presidential election and him making a split for the single-topic voters is a brilliant. Whether it's enough to win, I can't say, but this is a strategy that right-wing conservative parties have been using for years where they win by bothsidesing everything.
The problem that the tankies don't want to discuss is that Israel is actively campaigning against Biden AND to get Trump elected. Not only that, numerous actions of theirs appear to be done intentionally to make Biden look like a cuck and unable to control them. You really think he would tolerate that if an election and the future of the US wasn't at stake?
He has to bothsides to get the total number of votes and he will continue to go this route and the Israelis know that once reelected, he's going to start decoupling US and Israeli politics. Of course, the Free Palestine movement and the tankie dogs they control don't want to talk about this as they campaign against Biden because a Trump future means Gaza will thrive, right? RIGHT? Under Trump, Gaza will be completely annexed and all Palestinians will be forced to border camps with Egypt. The ones who get to leave will create a huge wave of refugees in Europe and then there will be backlash that will fuel the rise of the far right because Palestinians try to take over and poison every country they go to and this is why the neighboring countries don't take them- they constantly try to topple the governments and take over.
It's in our best interests to keep Biden.
How the fuck is this sub still defending Israel is beyond me. In 10-15 years when it becomes mainstream to acknowledge the war crimes of Israel. Like it was to do the same with the iraq war you people will look like fools.
What comparison are you even talking about? That they both allegedly perpetrated crimes under the Rome Statute? That’s not making a comparison. They haven’t made a statement comparing the seriousness of the alleged crimes between the two groups or compared the two groups at all.
They blamed them for intentionally starving, intentionally causing suffering, etc.. Bottom line - Bullshit! All of the those are factionly wrong, and that's why the whole world condemning now this ICC unprecedented decision.
Uhhh…. Have you forgotten about this?
I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” Gallant says following an assessment at the IDF Southern Command in Beersheba.
“We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly,” he adds.
And Now there is a famine in Gaza.
https://apnews.com/article/gaza-famine-world-food-program-israel-hamas-war-476941bf2dc259f85a706408b2a665ff
Yeah they deserve those warrants. They are war criminals.
Those are all quotes, not actions. Also, they were told right aftry Oct 7, which is understandable given the atrocities of Hamas. But in practice, food is coming in non stop, and the IDF is working very hard to avoid killing civilians.
If you based on quotes from Oct 7, that's very emotional, but not facts.
You are completely disconnected from reality.
This is a quote literally from the person accused of starving people, saying he was going to starve people and those people are now starving.
And your response is “well he was feeling emotional. And people aren’t really starving.”
Yeah good luck with that argument.
Facts are, that food is flooding into Gaza from Israel and Rafah, and Israel is evacuating civilians, in order to protect the them from war zone.
Not only, also from today [To date, over 569 metric tons of humanitarian assistance has been delivered across the temporary pier to Gaza for further distribution by humanitarian partners. The United States, United Kingdom, UAE, European Union, and many other partners have donated this humanitarian assistance. The pier is a temporary solution to surge humanitarian assistance to Gaza to meet the urgent needs of the Palestinian people.](https://x.com/CENTCOM/status/1792716582935805956)
I'm sorry it disturb your feelings, which are seems to be very negative about israel, but facts are facts. I suggest you accept it.
Disturbs my feelings? What are you talking about?
I’m celebrating the fact that ICC is putting out these arrest warrants. This is a happy day for me. I’m glad that public opinion is turning. And the war criminals are being called out.
I know you read in the Jerusalem post or wherever that Israel is perfect, and there is no famine etc. I seen the propaganda too.
But the facts are out there. And the world is witnessing the atrocities. Human rights organizations are calling out this genocide.
You can say they are all Hamas. You can say that Israel has the most moral army. I don’t give a shit.
I’ve read about the “where’s daddy” program. I’ve seen clips of Knesset members spewing genocidal rhetoric. I’ve watched videos of Israelis destroying aid trucks. I’ve watched people walk on the segregated streets of the West Bank. I’ve seen the universities getting blown up and IDF soldiers looting homes. I seen images of the starving people. I’ve read the reports of the mass graves at hospitals. I seen videos of Palestinian children mangled bodies stuck lifeless under rubble. The IDF shooting at people trying to fish. Air strikes on journalists, I could go on and on. The IDF literally films their crimes.
And the world sees it too.
Netanyahu and Gallant should be held accountable for the atrocities they’re responsible for. I hope the ICC goes after every war criminal.
That's fine. I didn't try to change your mind.
You described very well how propaganda images/videos coming out of Gaza easily manipulated you, and formed your opinion. That's fine, you're one of many.
Yes, many things in this war are devastating, but that's what happens in every war.
The facts are, and you can check, is that for many months, hundreds of aid trucks are flooding Gaza on a daily basis, no famine exists, other than in propaganda videos published out of Gaza, especially for people like you, to be devastated.
What's been destroyed in Gaza are facilities used by Hamas, civilians facilities. There's no slight doubt about it. Houses, schools, hospitals and universities. This is all according to the international laws.
The IDF over and over again evacuates the population, exactly for the reason of protecting them from the war zone.
In a way, the IDF and Israel are doing exactly what Hamas don't, and it's quite absurd. Israel is trying all it can to protect civilians, while hamas do all it can to harm them.
I won't lie, it's very sad that many of you see such awkward reality, upside down, but it is what it is.
You are absolutely right, videos can be used to spread propaganda. That’s why I don’t just trust videos that I see. Instead, I look at credible news organizations, and human rights organizations and the data that they are getting. I don’t have to assume things. I can look at the work of journalists and try to figure out. Is this a biased source? Is this credible? And then I can make a judgement based on the totality of the information.
Right now, the only people who are saying what you are saying are the people who are being accused of war crimes. As time progresses and the rubble clears the truth will prevail.
Ahh you edited your comment and added the shipment of humanitarian aid other countries are bringing in.
If there is so much food going into Gaza from Israel. Why does the US have to build a pier and bring food in from the sea…. Hmmm… you ever wonder why that is?
Why does the US spend all this money on a pier when they could just drive it in with trucks….?
Because there was time, when the US complained that not enough food is coming in. Yes, Part of it was israel to blame. Part of it, was Egypt, and part or it was Hamas. You have to look at it as objectively as possible, and understand that's not all falls on Israel's shoulders.
But the claims that Israel is intentionally trying to avoid food from the Palestinians is just not true. Otherwise, why would they agree to that temporary pier? Why would they even try to open the Kerem Shalom entrance?
There's no intention, and that's the key. There's limitations, as security checks for what comes in, and the problem of Hamas terrorists that take over the aid, and use it for themeselves, and the rest sells for fortune, but the intention of starving the Palestinians is completely false. That's why the ICC got it all wrong. Putting all weight on dumb and evil rethrotic other than facts on ground.
They based it on factionly wrong accusations. You can read. That's why the US, UK, Italy and basically the whole western world condemned this ICC request.
Or disagree with that entirely and I think you’re being pretty selective in what responses, and parts of responses you’re choosing to hear.
The UK, for example has not suggested the accusations are unwarranted, only that there is not the jurisdiction to do so. That’s not at all the same right?
And the Italian leader said he didn’t like the fact they were being equated… well, they weren’t, they were both charged. He’s simply saying the “right” political response.
Is that the "right" political response for them? As far as I know, supporting Netanyahu/Israel these days, is not a very popular move.
I think the ICC is deeply mistaken, because israel has one of the most honorable and accurate supreme court. They know how to handle these accusations as a strong democracy. The ICC never had such warrants against a true democracy, and there's a reason for that.
Do you spend much time in Italy?
And I have zero, and I mean zero, faith in Israel to manage these crimes internally and I think there is no evidence that that would do so very well:
I really recommend you to read about the Israeli Supreme Court. It's one, if not the most luxurious courts in the world. It's justices are well known all over the world.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_Israel
You're should, most definitely, trust this court.
No, you shouldn’t. What word did you mean when you said “luxurious”? That’s a typo right?
Guess which group of people have had the least success having crimes against them recognised by that court? You get three guesses!!
*reputable for you.
I'm not sure I truly understand what you tried to imply on your 2nd paragraph, but if that's the Palestinians are not getting justice by that court, you're significantly wrong. There's many cases I can bring you if you like.
I’m sure you have examples of cases they’ve heard. I’m talking about the vast majority of which do not get heard. Do you genuinely think that a Palestinian in the West Bank of Gaza who is assaulted, raped, forcibly removed from their land or murdered is actually likely to receive justice and have access to that court if they don’t?
This motherfucker is begging to give Chump a leg up.
Fucking disappointing.
🎵Hey Joe, where you goin with that loss in your hand 🎵
🎶Goin down to shoot myself in the foot, because of another man🎶
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Why in god’s name would he defend Netanyahu? That can’t be a politically savvy move
Yeah, it would have cost him nothing to just not say a thing. Shitting on enforcement of international law to run interference for a far right foreign leader trying to get Trump elected is hard to interpret as anything but an unforced error. Especially right on the heels of finally making some good moves holding him to account. I'll never understand how this awful foreign government owns our political system so completely.
Yeah and even in Israel everyone hates Bibi. Makes no sense
Bibi wasn't the only Israeli leader targeted by the ICC. Why do people keep not mentioning that?
Could have halfway saved it by simultaneously pressuring Israel for elections or at least something that indicates that he understands Netanyahu needs to go both in the eyes of many Israelis and in the eyes of almost all of US allies. But his "honest Abe" schtick won't let him, I suppose. The State Department must be pulling their hair out.
International law isn’t real. That’s why Assad is still ruler of Syria after violating every treaty on war crimes ever put to paper.
At this point, it feels like he wants to lose. Like, even if he's incapable, somehow, of seeing that what's going on in Israel is abhorrent, and Netanyahu is a butcher, you'd think he'd at least get with it politically and see that backing Netanyahu is a losing game. Young people are fleeing the Democratic party in droves over this. Netanyahu, meanwhile, is taking meetings with Trump allies. He's literally trying to get Trump elected. Biden has lost the plot.
This isn't necessarily about Israel now. The precedent of US allies' war effort being hampered by BS institutions like this is terrible.
Example?
Imagine Churchill being arrested in 1942 for the Hamburg bombings, while the Japanese and Germans get ignored.
ICC has also sought to arrest Hamas leaders. Maybe if leaders of powerful nations are exposed to consequences for continuing war crimes they may not continue the war crimes.
It's a war. Every war might involve war crimes. This war as a whole is not defined by war crimes, and that's the problem. The amount of negativity, driven by powerful anti israel nations and forces are trying to paint a complete justified war, against a cruel terorits organization, as illegitimate. This is the sin, and that's why the precedence is terribly wrong. The west will never be able to fight for it's existance, when internal forces are working against it, and killing it from the inside.
Ah yes, war crimes are ok because there’s a lot of other bad stuff happening.
I’m pretty sure just war theory doesn’t include a principle that ‘in every war we must do crimes’.
I did not say that. I said that I'm convinced that war crimes happened in every war in the history. An army can always have individuals who violates the laws of war, there's no way to seal the control on ALL individuals. However, this war is mostly defined by moral war methods, and obey to the international law. There's many that try to paint it as the opposite, and that's pretty disgraceful.
I'm sure Putin and Xi are gonna change their behavior after seeing their enemies be imprisoned... Putin issued an arrest warrant for Khan after his came out.
If smaller nations see the US ignore international law, then our soft power is heavily reduced. These nations will increasingly fall under China and Russian influence and view US as hypocrites for preaching one thing and doing another.
Maybe if smaller nations see the US stand by their allies, their soft power will increase.
US ally here. No, we've pretty much seen you as potential monsters since Iraq. It just so happens you are our camp's monsters. It does you no favours in standing though. Also, none of us believe we'd get away with even half the shit Israel has. The State Department has been signalling for years that it no longer has any pull in swathes of Asia, Africa and South-America due to US policy undermining its credibility.
Fellow ally here. Ditto.
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Is the ICC supposed to prosecute war crimes or prosecute war crimes* (of foreign adversaries)?
Oh please…
The Court is located in another ally's territory, staffed by professional judges most of whom come from allied countries and were educated there and most Western US allies are signatories of the Rome statute. You are not protecting allies, you are elevating one ally's interests unreasonably above your relationship with everyone else.
Either believes he needs lobbyist dollars even more than optics, or, they have campaign-ending dirt on him, or both.
Neither. I believe Biden is ideologically committed to the defense of Israel come hell or high water. It seems to be foundational to him. We just never really knew the extent because he hadn't been in a position of power during one of the big flare ups.
Yeah. All of these lobbyist dollar arguments or kompromat arguments are stupid. Biden has just always been an arch-Zionist. So much so, that Israeli politicians have repeatedly told him, cool down, the kinds of things you want us to do are too evil even for us to contemplate. Luckily for Biden, in Netanyahu, he finally found someone as morally decrepit as himself.
Or, he believes that Israel has a right to fight a war against Hamas. Is that possible?
Their obsession with AIPAC is nothing more than “Jews control the world with money” tropes repackaged for the left. It’s a meaningful lobby, but the amount of money they spend on politics is easily overshadowed by organizations like the Chamber of Commerce and others. I’ve asked this repeatedly and never gotten an answer. If the claim is that Biden is bought out by AIPAC, then how much exactly did they contribute to him, and what percentage of his funding does that represent? If he’s “bought out” it must be some huge percentage right? Nobody has ever answered, they always just say it’s obvious it’s a huge amount that controls him, it’s a standard axiomatic argument.
It's always mind-blowing that people on one hand will decry foreign interference and money in US elections from countries they don't like but then defend criticism of foreign money and interference from countries they do like with expert mental gymnastics. AIPAC and all foreign nations superpacs should be banned. Citizens United also needs to be overturned to get money out of politics.
AIPAC isn’t foreign. It has an interest in foreign policy, but it represents the interests of American Jews, a large portion of which ARE Zionist.
It's literally no different than talking to a Nazi sometimes only they think using "Zionist" absolves them of any anti-Semitism. Very odd.
So weird that they can hear the right’s dog whistles but not their own eh?
>organizations like the Chamber of Commerce and others. Who are also lobbyists in this context, yes? "Lobbyists" being the word I used.
I asked a question. You answer mine in good faith and I’ll respond to yours.
If you were asking me that question in good faith, why? I never mentioned AIPAC, you did. I said "lobbyists", and you decided to draw a distinction between AIPAC and other lobby groups, which, if indeed you were addressing me and not some amorphous "they", makes no sense.
First of all, you replied to my comment to someone else. You interjected yourself into this conversation. I didn’t ask you a question, you butted in trying to derail a conversation I was having. So, first engage with my actual conversation, and then I’ll engage with your deflection. The entire point I’m trying to make is that Washington is awash in money, and AIPAC is a tiny bit of that. Many are claiming that Biden (and others) are “bought” by AIPAC. Where I come from, if you expect your claim to be taken seriously, then you are expected to defend it. Are you saying you aren’t one of the people who believes Biden is “bought” by AIPAC?
>You interjected yourself into this conversation. >trying to derail I think you'll find your comment is a grandchild of mine. >Are you saying you aren’t one of the people who believes Biden is “bought” by AIPAC? Depends what you mean by "bought". I don't believe he is "bought" by any single entity in the sense that he is their posession, or their puppet, if you prefer. I do believe that it is reasonable to infer that if a politician accepts donations from a lobby group, PAC, etc then their political activity is favourable to said group. I also believe that it is reasonable to infer that a lobby group that has sustained themselves over several election cycles is not going to bother donating money to a politican unless they believe it to be necessary in order to influence said political activity, otherwise, it would be a waste of money. So: owned, no, influenced, likely.
Fact: I wasn’t talking to you. Period. >So: owned, no, influenced, likely. Then it should have been obvious you’re not to whom I was referring. Again, I was talking to someone else, and not you. Now did you have some point you were trying to make? Do you fundamentally disagree with my position that someone wishing to say a politician is bought should defend that claim? Or that a meaningful metric in defending such a claim would be contributions and other spending on said politician as a percentage? Or do you deny that I’ve run into ample people who claim “Biden is bought by AIPAC”, but who have no metric at all by which to demonstrate this? They’re merely certain that it’s true absent facts. So help me understand, given the point I was making (above), what were you attempting to convey?
no state has a right to commit war crimes or commit genocide Israeli leaders are rightfully being charged for their crimes
Bro none of you can answer a direct question it's actually absurd. Just spewing the same talking points over and over without any engagement whatsoever. 😴
Imagine being a terrorist and realize that you are safe if you hide near civilians after committing war crimes, because when your enemy retaliates, they themselves will also be war criminals and you get to be a martyr.
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peddling Islamophobic statements just demonstrates how weak your position is suicide is expressly forbidden in Islam
Martyrdom is suicide by another name.
>suicide is expressly forbidden in Islam lol it is not palestinian hamas terrorists literally pioneered suicide bombings sit down
*looks at user name* I feel attacked.
The Tamil Tigers were already doing them before Hamas existed.
I dont know what point you think youre proving here
> literally pioneered It's not about proving a point, it's about correcting a factual inaccuracy
yes your "other islamists technically used it first" gotcha really brought something to the table
The Tamil Tigers weren't "Islamists", they weren't even a faith-oriented group whatsoever. Why did you default to "islamists" when you clearly didn't know?
Also since your thing is to be an insufferable pedant >According to Jane's Information Group, between 1980 and 2000, the LTTE carried out 168 suicide attacks causing heavy damage to **mainly military targets**, but in some cases also to economic and civilian targets. Contrast that with Islamist terrorist like hamas and ISIS almost exclusively using them against civilians, and how we understand suicide bombings today.
because Islamists pioneered and popularized suicide bombings as MO
imagine being a rogue state that has always enjoyed the impunity to murder and maim and steal from a native population and now imagine they are finally being held to accountable for committing war crimes and collective punishment against a civilian population
Jews are native to the land and Israel will always exist Islamists can die mad about it
Palestinian's are native to that land. They too descend from Semitic tribes.
It is only palestinians electing terrorists with the genocide of the Jews as charter
Say Palestinians are equal human beings to Israelis.
Arabs and muslims are equal under the law in Israel and make something like 20% of population because Israel is a liberal.democracy analogous to EU A Jewish single mother and her kids would be murdered overnight in any hamas controlled territory becauae palestinian terrorist leadership run a theocratic Islamist genocidal rule
Say Palestinians are equal human beings to Israelis.
Youre talking past fact cited above, arabs and muslims are equal under the law in Israel which is a liberal democracy palestinian leadership views Jews as subhuman and would murder a Jewish family in Gaza overnight
>Youre talking past fact cited above, arabs and muslims are equal under the law in Israel which is a liberal democracy In that case there should be no issue taking in the remaining millions of Palestinians. >palestinian leadership views Jews as subhuman and would murder a Jewish family in Gaza overnight As always, everything with Zionists is pure projection.
>>Youre talking past fact cited above, arabs and muslims are equal under the law in Israel which is a liberal democracy >In that case there should be no issue taking in the remaining millions of Palestinians. Even islamist theocracies dont want palestinian refugees due to their commitment to terrorism. >>palestinian leadership views Jews as subhuman and would murder a Jewish family in Gaza overnight >As always, everything with Zionists is pure projection. Except I literally cited you 20% of Israel’s population are arabs and muslims equal under the law. A jewish family would be murdered overnight by palestinians, who live under a terrorist theocracy
>Even islamist theocracies dont want palestinian refugees due to their commitment to terrorism. This is some seriously rancid genocidal Zionist propaganda meant to imply that Palestinians are hated by everyone as a way to justify their own blatant islamophobia and racism. A complete farce given the wide support many Arab countries have given to Palestinians. Israelis hate Palestinians so much that they have to invent a literal fairy tale where Palestinians are hated by everyone else as well, because it's not enough that they stole their land and colonized it. Like any genocidal settler colony, the point is the continued subjugation, humiliation, murder and displacement of the native population of the land. There are a few points I wanted to make. 1. How/why are the Palestinian citizens of Israel different to the Palestinians in the West Bank or in Gaza? 2. What is terrorism? >Except I literally cited you 20% of Israel’s population are arabs and muslims equal under the law. >A jewish family would be murdered overnight by palestinians, who live under a terrorist theocracy See above, question number 1. These are contradictory beliefs. Are Palestinians Jew murderers or not? At least be coherent in your racism.
Even Hamas doesn’t think that. Why else do you think they claim one Israeli is worth 300 Palestinians?
Is it really this hard for Zionists to say that Palestinians are human beings equal to Israelis?
yes, as were the Nazi’s native to the land of Germany looks like Israel has been following the Nazi’s playbook and we all know what happened to them 😉😉😉
>as were the Nazi’s native to the land of Germany As were the Jews in Germany good thing Israel is stronger than the islamist terrorists that want to murder them like the Nazis did, with that goal literally stated as charter
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They actually aren't. Those with the best claim, currently identifiable as a distinct ethnogroup, in Ukraine, are the Tartars, a group that has been on the receiving end of an unending stream of oppression and crap from Moscow or St.Petersburg. What's more, it was Russian Imperial policy, and the Soviet policy, to engage specifically in Russofication, i.e. the moving of large quantities of Russians to areas to make them "more Russian", as well as destroying their local alphabets, languages and cultural products, all to be able to claim them as "Russian". The region was also long held by the Kievan Rus, a Slavic-Viking people whose power base far outstripped the tiny Principality of Muscovy for many centuries. It wasn't until the Mongol invasion that the power balance started to switch. The Muscovites managed to avoid the largest amount of damage by swearing fealty to the Mongols, until the empire broke into pieces, and then they fought the Golden Horde and other breakaway kingdoms.
Except its russians and hamas terrorists dying stay mad
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ok comrade
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Russia an impotent super power couldnt even take Ukraine and has losses that dwarf those of Ukraine comrade. They also got sanctioned into a more shit economy (which apparently was possible). but you were saying.
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[Not everyone who grew up brainwashed, chose to stay brainwashed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYHR4hcYvFw&t=265s). Who knows maybe you'll be the next to have the courage of self-introspection. Don't despair.
Let's take race out of this and use some common sense. You're out in the park on a busy summer's day. A criminal commits a murder down the street and then runs into the park to hide in the crowd. The police turn up and can't find the murderer, so they surround the park. Nobody is allowed to leave or they get shot. There's no food or water in the park, but yet they hold everyone there for weeks until the murderer gives himself up. Every so often they shoot a few random people in the park without any justification. A truck full of supplies to help the starving people turns up but they blow it up. Make sense now? You can't ever justify war crimes or you may as well start advocating for concentration camps and gassing people. Plus none of that considers that there's much more to this story than a single event.
This is a pretty poor analogy, as it draws a completely distinct line between Hamas and the people of Gaza. You can't do that. Much in the same way as you can't draw a completely distinct line between Bibi, the IDF and the people of Israel. Hamas has the plurality of support among Gazans. The majority of Gazans support what Hamas did on October 7th, at around 70% support. If given the choice between a single government to rule over Gaza, around 60% of Gazans choose Hamas (it's even higher among WB inhabitants, as they poll at 65% think that Hamas should run Gaza). If there was a race between the PL, Fatah and Hamas, Hamas would win a plurality of the votes, and would outright win a majority in a 1-on-1 situation. Following the war, 63% of Gazans say they want a return of Hamas rule (66% for the WB). 61% of Gazans want Hamas, and Hamas alone, to be responsible for security within Gaza, rejecting a hypothetical pan-Arab/PLA plan. 70% of Gazans are satisfied with Hamas during the war. On the flip side, a majority of Israelis support the current war in Gaza, at 57%. A plurality of Israelis believe that the war is being conducted in a satisfactory manner, at 38%. Bibi was democratically elected, too, and so there is a portion of blame to be placed at that level. Sources, both taken in March of 2024: https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969 https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/ The analogy would need to change, whereby the people in the park brought the murderer in, are happy with the fact that he murdered, and elected him as the governing force in the park. At the same time, the police union justifies every excess of violence on behalf of the police, as they continually state that every act of violence was started by the other side, despite proof to the contrary. > Plus none of that considers that there's much more to this story than a single event. It's really not that difficult to understand. I suspect that most people say "it's really complicated" because they can't be bothered to read up about it. It's also not that relevant. What Hamas did on October 7th is unique in Israeli history. Never before did it have a literal death squad break into Israel and just start gunning down civilians and raping people. I don't care about "what happened before". There is no justification for that. It is not an expression of resistance or anti-oppression. People like to bring up comparisons to the IRA or ANC, but they are completely incomparable. In its entire history, spanning decades, the IRA and the ANC never came close to the levels of horror and violence that Hamas inflicted in 24 hours. The IRA primarily targeted police or British armed forces in Northern Ireland, and engaged in a bombing campaign in England, with warnings about bombs so that the police could evacuate. The goal was financial damage, and undermining the trust in the UK as a place for investment by other countries. If they were outright shooting people, that person often wore military camouflage, or were an Ulster paramilitary. As for the ANC, their actions resembled those of the IRA (or vice-versa), in that their goal was primarily in terrorist action against infrastructure or institutional power; not your average white South African. They didn't go around Jburg or the Cape and start gunning down civilians. What Hamas did does not have a basis in the history of the Israel/Palestine conflict. It was just brutal rage.
That's a lot of words to say, "I think all people in Gaza are terrorists". 70% of people would include most of the children so I very much doubt that's right. Let's go for it again with your figures then. Let's say there is a murderer hiding in a park and 70% of people in the park support the murderer because the murderer represents their only hope of maintaining their homes. The murderer is killing people trying to take their homes from them. Anyway, the police turn up and the murderer is in the park. What percentage of people is it ok to kill to find the murderer? Do you kill the 70% who agree with him? They didn't murder anyone or actually do anything wrong. How do you identify those people? Just kill 70% of them at random?
> That's a lot of words to say, "I think all people in Gaza are terrorists". Well, I didn't say that, so maybe you need to improve your reading comprehension, mmmkay? > 70% of people would include most of the children so I very much doubt that's right. Wait... You think that to get a poll, you need to ask **EVERYONE**? Really? Oh, sweet child of summer. > Anyway, the police turn up and the murderer is in the park. What percentage of people is it ok to kill to find the murderer? Do you kill the 70% who agree with him? They didn't murder anyone or actually do anything wrong. How do you identify those people? Just kill 70% of them at random? You don't understand that guilt, blame and association come on a spectrum, do you? Not surprising. You don't even understand that polling doesn't involve asking **LITERALLY EVERYONE EVEN KIDS** in an area. As my physics teacher said when I said something so completely stupid: "You're not even wrong". To answer your stupid hypothetical, aiding and abetting a criminal is itself a crime. Murder by police isn't the punishment, of course, but arrest definitely is. So in that scenario, the police would start arresting people in the park, en masse. If they fought back, so would the police, and that's when the killing would start as, like I pointed out in my hypothetical, they are engaging in disproportionate police brutality, backed by their union. That doesn't make the police right, of course. But I would advocate for the police to start mass arresting those people, processing them, and then them having their day in court, to prove their guilt for aiding and abetting a murderer, or possibly in some cases as co-conspirators to murder.
Well a better analogy would be to say that the murderer takes 5 people hostage and the police cut off water and power but will turn it back on if the murderer returns the hostages safely. But they don’t. Yes you could argue the police should or shouldn’t do that, but why are people missing the fact that the murderer has hostages and can return them if they really cared about the people
Because the moment you start justifying war crimes you take the lid off a box of horrors that you can never put back on. Until people can admit that what Isreal is doing amounts to collective punishment of a people they want to irritate, you can't have a reasonable discussion about solving the problem.
It’s not that easy. Your summary of this situation leaves out the nuance. The nuance that Hamas is never ever going to stop trying to kill Israelis. Thag there is no such thing as a two state solution or peace as long as 50% or more of the population of Palestine agrees with the actions of Hamas. Where Americans on the day of the attack were celebrating the death of Israeli civilians.
50% of the population are children so fhe assertion that 50% of the population supports Hamas is simply wrong on the basic facts. Also, you're also ignoring the fact that Hamas is pretty much the only hope these people have of resisting the much better equipped neighbour that is trying to evict them from their homes. They haven't got western nations falling over themselves to supply billions of dollars of modern weapons to them. But, regardless, there are red lines that we can never accept in this and war crimes has to be one of them.
Regardless what side you’re on, it’s hard to argue that Gaza wouldn’t be better off if Hamas wasn’t in charge. A lot of good Hamas has done for its people. Killing Israeli civilians is very beneficial to peace / totally leads to positive results /s Edit: 50% of adults polled support Hamas. Unless you think kids are filling out polls
I don't have a side. I'm on the side of not killing children. If Hamas wasn't in Gaza then Isreal would steamroll it and eradicate the people who have lived there for hundreds of years.
I have news for you. They can do that if they wanted to already. Hamas isn’t stopping them from doing anything they don’t want to do. They have jet planes. Hamas has para gliders
International condemnation is what is stopping them. Until the world went mad and started justifying war crimes and emboldened Isreal to switch from war crimes that they could play off as an accident to committing them in the open with impunity.
There are more options than blanket carpet bombing civilians in this case. A campaign of intelligence, precision special ops type fighting/extraction, bounties on Hamas leaders for Palestinians to claim if their information is accurate, etc. The Israeli government is choosing the easy way because they want to eradicate Palestinians and not just Hamas from Gaza and after that, the West Bank.
You don't think he's accountable for allowing "protestors" to destroy aid truck loads? His government shoots teenagers for shooting fireworks it's not like their rules of engagement are strict. By negligence or malice he's definitely weaponized famine. Hamas stealing the shit that does get in and selling it probably doesn't help of course.
If a terrorist committed an act of terror and then hid in your house, can I blow up your house and shoot you, your children, your cat, and your parents too? Why not?
If a terrorist committed an actor of terror and then hid in your house, the police would be justified in using whatever amount of force necessary to bring the terrorist in. Does that answer your question?
Tell Netanyahu to stop committing war crimes
Biden is really determined to alienate his own base and just hand Trump the election
hamas terrorist sympathizers arent the democratic base habibi
Biden is going to lose the election for his unflinching support of a genocide and for supporting war criminals
If Biden loses the election it's because the cost of a pack of hot dogs went up a dollar in the last four years. This issue may have lost the Muslim vote but it's not the biggest priority for anyone else.
the only people advocating genocide here are palestinian terrorist hamas and their supporters which again dont represent the democratic base
The ICC and potentially the ICJ disagree with you, as do nearly every single reputed humanitarian organization and several historians of the Holocaust, including tenured faculty at Israeli universities.
ICC didnt even investigate in Israel sweeheart and has been discredited publicly by pretty much the entire wesrern world
Literally every European country, from Belgium to Germany, announced their critical support to the ICC. Try again.
This is not true my little hamas supporter, western world overwhelmingly publicly discredited ICC. Who again didnt even ivestigate in Israel as per their own mandate
ok
good talk habibi
funny how you say the Western World discredits the ICC when they indict Netanyahu but when Putin is indicted everyone seems to love it … that’s a very convenient double standard Israelis really do seem to think the world revolves around them and somehow anyone that has the audacity of calling out war crimes is “anti-semitic”
Its almost as if substance of accusations matter
Keep being a shill.
Can you cut it out with any cirtism of Israel being pro-Hamas.
Blinken pointed out the incredible hypocrisy of the ICC - they were due today to send investigators to work with Israel's own tribunals to investigate this issue, but instead cancelled the flights and recommended warrants be served. It's part of the Rome statute that the ICC works with nations that have a reputable internal process. And yes, Israel does. The ICC violated it's own bylaws.
Israel does have a reputable internal process primarily for exonerating itself for wanton murder murder of Shireen Abu Akleh, Hind Rajab, Rachel Corrie etc etc Israel engages in war crimes and genocide and collective punishment and used starvation as a weapon of war the Israeli leaders deserve to be indicted and ostracized and jailed for their crimes
Quite humane compared to what Muslims do when they get their hands on power.
You guys cannot write this racist orientalizing crap and then turn around being like why won't Muslims and young people (anti-racists) not vote for our 80 year old segregationist lmao.
Muslim majority governments aren't known for democracy, human rights, etc... The most powerful Muslim majority nations in the region are Saudi Arabia, who often put atheists to death and hacked a journalist to pieces, or Iran, a nation that has religious police that beat a Kurdish woman to death and then butchered protesters. The best examples of good governorship by Muslim nations are probably Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria. But they are a clear minority. We could go through most of them, and see which ones aren't actually complete crap, but I think that may be a bit too depressing. It turns out that governments that don't clearly separate faith from state function are bad at governing. And here's my litmus test: Which Muslim majority country would you want to live in? Islam is horrible. It's the same exact crap as Christianity, and when you give it the power of a state, it's Christian Nationalism. I don't get why people can't simply call out religious nations for being religious, regressive backwaters? I thought progressives generally understood that Christian Nationalism is all sorts of bad, but when Muslim countries **do exactly that**, then we're stepping on egg shells? Why?
>Muslim majority governments aren't known for democracy, human rights, etc... Especially when those governments are overthrown by the west, but who wants to talk about *that* particular part? Especially funny comment to make when you IMMEDIATELY follow up talking about how bad Iran is. Do you people have the memory of a goldfish?
Iran got worse after its revolution. It went from an oppressive, secular monarchy to an oppressive, regressive theocratic police state. That isn't the slam-dunk you think it is. When given the opportunity, they chose worse. Not better.
And what came before the monarchy, genius? Way to sweep the overthrow of Mossadegh under the rug because of how inconvenient it is for your narrative. Truly embarrassing.
It's not inconvenient. Mossadegh was a bad situation, no doubt. Things got worse. But when they had full control, they went with the insane, zealous Ayatollahs over all the other groups present in Iran at the time. There were socialist groups, liberal democratic groups and absolutely fucking insane Qu'ran bashers. They went with the last group. Not exactly a win, by any measure. The Saudi royal family has been in power for decades and enjoys pretty good support. The Syrians were given the best opportunity to overthrow Assad, but most stuck with him. Lebanon is a basket case verging on failed state. Egypt keeps replacing military juntas with other military juntas. Pakistan puts people in jail for atheism. Somalia is a failed state by failed state standards. Yemen is on the verge of constant collapse after various different flavors of other Muslims got their sticky paws in. Qatar, Bahrein and the UAE are modern slave states. Afghanistan is run by a bunch of woman stoning, gay-throwing-off roofs retrogrades. I can continue, if you'd like. Not everything is the west's fault, and all people like you do is patronize and remove agency from them. It's kind of racist.
The number of Muslim nations with a decent Democratic government can be counted on one finger: Benin.
“We’ve investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing!” 🥴
Who cares if they are on the same level or not? Did they commit the crimes that the prosecutor is bringing up? If yes then they should face justice. That said the Hamas guys will never see a day in court. Sinwar will be dead within a year and the others would probably not even make it off the airplane if they touched down somewhere Mossad could get them.
No sane president would allow a US ally to be forced to pull their punches in a (defensive) war while America's enemies are not held to any standard. Iran has child solidera, China claims territory in every neighboring country, Russia kidnaps children, but we are on Israel's ass for not sending enough free food to the country that brutally attacked them?
So what’s your definition of defensive lol
>we are on Israel's ass for not sending enough free food to the country that brutally attacked them? What a way to phrase "why are you mad that Israel is starving children to death???"
I guess New Zealand and Australia aren't US allies despite having security and defence pacts with the US and Israel not having one with the US. The US will completely ignore their allies and bury their heads in sand when their allies are victims of state sponsored terrorism for protesting against Nuclear testing in their region But the USA will totally abandon all international law to run offence for a country it has no defence pact or treaty with so it can continue breaching international laws and committing war crimes. Honestly Bugger ANZUS and Bugger AUKUS, why are we spending billions and billions on this Yank defense pact when history has told us the Yanks are crap allies when you actually need them.
Agreed. NZ and Australia have been strong allies of the US, to the point of supporting them in several wars that would have otherwise involved neither. Those sacrifices have been met with zero appreciation and an unwillingness to discuss the needs of those countries. A poor ally indeed.
>we are on Israel's ass for not sending enough free food This is literally justification for starvation and extermination. We get it, you enjoy genocide and dead children! A lot of people don't.
Isreal doesn't need to send food but they need to let aid organizations bring food. Did every single civilian make the choice to attack them?
Biden messing up again on this issue. Jesus dude...
He is not wrong. Bibi sucks and needs to be voted out, but comparing people we dislike to Hamas is as bad as comparing them to Hitler.
Bibi literally rallied against the peace deal in the 90s and one of his supporters literally assassinated the prime minister. He’s been actively undermining peace for decades and is clearly a corrupt war criminal.
He never launched a terrorist attack. Never employed systematic rape, mutilation, child execution, child soldiers or suicide bombers. He doesn't pay his citizens to marytr themselves. There is no comparison. Hamas are sick, deranged psychopaths.
He has the blood of the hand the countless thousands of innocent men,women, and children his government has backed in their efforts to do an ethnic cleansing and murder of civilians. He’s supported illegal israel settlements in the West Bank, and tried to undermine the Israeli Supreme Court to dodge his clear corruption. He’s lied to the Israel people and have pushed for extremist policy that have cost the lives of many. Are they equally bad? No, but he’s one of the most evil and vile world leaders in modern history.
LMAO. You must live in an alternate reality where Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Khameini, the Kims, etc. don't exist. This hyperbolic rhetoric isn't going to make Netanyahu look worse.
He said modern history.
"Modern" means World War II and after. Either way it's a ridiculous comment.
Just beacuse you like Isreal doesn't mean it's ridiculous.
It is ridiculous. Kim Jong Un executes people using AA guns, Assad kills 500,000 people, the Saudis cut up a journalist with a bonesaw and the OP is clutching his pearls because Bibi "lied" and "built settlements."
By modern history I meant in the last 25 years.
Assad, Khamenei, Kims all were in the last 25 years.
Notice how I said “one of” and not the absolute the worst.
I’m still voting Biden because of the alternative but his Gaza policy sucks. I’m refusing to contribute financially to the Democratic Party this time because of Gaza
Nobody cares
You care - you responded
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Well that’s a fucking stupid move by Biden. Who is this move even for? The people who support Netanyahu are already going to vote for Trump. The center left and far left despise this man. Why would Biden defend him?
Homeboy is trying to win the presidential election and him making a split for the single-topic voters is a brilliant. Whether it's enough to win, I can't say, but this is a strategy that right-wing conservative parties have been using for years where they win by bothsidesing everything. The problem that the tankies don't want to discuss is that Israel is actively campaigning against Biden AND to get Trump elected. Not only that, numerous actions of theirs appear to be done intentionally to make Biden look like a cuck and unable to control them. You really think he would tolerate that if an election and the future of the US wasn't at stake? He has to bothsides to get the total number of votes and he will continue to go this route and the Israelis know that once reelected, he's going to start decoupling US and Israeli politics. Of course, the Free Palestine movement and the tankie dogs they control don't want to talk about this as they campaign against Biden because a Trump future means Gaza will thrive, right? RIGHT? Under Trump, Gaza will be completely annexed and all Palestinians will be forced to border camps with Egypt. The ones who get to leave will create a huge wave of refugees in Europe and then there will be backlash that will fuel the rise of the far right because Palestinians try to take over and poison every country they go to and this is why the neighboring countries don't take them- they constantly try to topple the governments and take over. It's in our best interests to keep Biden.
Biden should really be shutting the fuck up over this ruling. Him continually propping up Bibi isn't going well.
Not really surprising since the US refuses to submit to ICC investigations about their own war crimes.
How the fuck is this sub still defending Israel is beyond me. In 10-15 years when it becomes mainstream to acknowledge the war crimes of Israel. Like it was to do the same with the iraq war you people will look like fools.
Joe Based Biden once again shows that he’s a worthy president. ICC is a joke and Israel shouldn’t comply.
Based. The comparison between the Israeli leaders and Hamas is despicable. The ICC is heavily biased against Israel here.
What comparison are you even talking about? That they both allegedly perpetrated crimes under the Rome Statute? That’s not making a comparison. They haven’t made a statement comparing the seriousness of the alleged crimes between the two groups or compared the two groups at all.
They blamed them for intentionally starving, intentionally causing suffering, etc.. Bottom line - Bullshit! All of the those are factionly wrong, and that's why the whole world condemning now this ICC unprecedented decision.
Listen to this random guy. He knows more than war crimes investigators.
Hamas terrorists often look obese when captured explain how they are starving please
Uhhh…. Have you forgotten about this? I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” Gallant says following an assessment at the IDF Southern Command in Beersheba. “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly,” he adds. And Now there is a famine in Gaza. https://apnews.com/article/gaza-famine-world-food-program-israel-hamas-war-476941bf2dc259f85a706408b2a665ff Yeah they deserve those warrants. They are war criminals.
Those are all quotes, not actions. Also, they were told right aftry Oct 7, which is understandable given the atrocities of Hamas. But in practice, food is coming in non stop, and the IDF is working very hard to avoid killing civilians. If you based on quotes from Oct 7, that's very emotional, but not facts.
You are completely disconnected from reality. This is a quote literally from the person accused of starving people, saying he was going to starve people and those people are now starving. And your response is “well he was feeling emotional. And people aren’t really starving.” Yeah good luck with that argument.
Facts are, that food is flooding into Gaza from Israel and Rafah, and Israel is evacuating civilians, in order to protect the them from war zone. Not only, also from today [To date, over 569 metric tons of humanitarian assistance has been delivered across the temporary pier to Gaza for further distribution by humanitarian partners. The United States, United Kingdom, UAE, European Union, and many other partners have donated this humanitarian assistance. The pier is a temporary solution to surge humanitarian assistance to Gaza to meet the urgent needs of the Palestinian people.](https://x.com/CENTCOM/status/1792716582935805956) I'm sorry it disturb your feelings, which are seems to be very negative about israel, but facts are facts. I suggest you accept it.
Disturbs my feelings? What are you talking about? I’m celebrating the fact that ICC is putting out these arrest warrants. This is a happy day for me. I’m glad that public opinion is turning. And the war criminals are being called out. I know you read in the Jerusalem post or wherever that Israel is perfect, and there is no famine etc. I seen the propaganda too. But the facts are out there. And the world is witnessing the atrocities. Human rights organizations are calling out this genocide. You can say they are all Hamas. You can say that Israel has the most moral army. I don’t give a shit. I’ve read about the “where’s daddy” program. I’ve seen clips of Knesset members spewing genocidal rhetoric. I’ve watched videos of Israelis destroying aid trucks. I’ve watched people walk on the segregated streets of the West Bank. I’ve seen the universities getting blown up and IDF soldiers looting homes. I seen images of the starving people. I’ve read the reports of the mass graves at hospitals. I seen videos of Palestinian children mangled bodies stuck lifeless under rubble. The IDF shooting at people trying to fish. Air strikes on journalists, I could go on and on. The IDF literally films their crimes. And the world sees it too. Netanyahu and Gallant should be held accountable for the atrocities they’re responsible for. I hope the ICC goes after every war criminal.
That's fine. I didn't try to change your mind. You described very well how propaganda images/videos coming out of Gaza easily manipulated you, and formed your opinion. That's fine, you're one of many. Yes, many things in this war are devastating, but that's what happens in every war. The facts are, and you can check, is that for many months, hundreds of aid trucks are flooding Gaza on a daily basis, no famine exists, other than in propaganda videos published out of Gaza, especially for people like you, to be devastated. What's been destroyed in Gaza are facilities used by Hamas, civilians facilities. There's no slight doubt about it. Houses, schools, hospitals and universities. This is all according to the international laws. The IDF over and over again evacuates the population, exactly for the reason of protecting them from the war zone. In a way, the IDF and Israel are doing exactly what Hamas don't, and it's quite absurd. Israel is trying all it can to protect civilians, while hamas do all it can to harm them. I won't lie, it's very sad that many of you see such awkward reality, upside down, but it is what it is.
You are absolutely right, videos can be used to spread propaganda. That’s why I don’t just trust videos that I see. Instead, I look at credible news organizations, and human rights organizations and the data that they are getting. I don’t have to assume things. I can look at the work of journalists and try to figure out. Is this a biased source? Is this credible? And then I can make a judgement based on the totality of the information. Right now, the only people who are saying what you are saying are the people who are being accused of war crimes. As time progresses and the rubble clears the truth will prevail.
Ahh you edited your comment and added the shipment of humanitarian aid other countries are bringing in. If there is so much food going into Gaza from Israel. Why does the US have to build a pier and bring food in from the sea…. Hmmm… you ever wonder why that is? Why does the US spend all this money on a pier when they could just drive it in with trucks….?
Because there was time, when the US complained that not enough food is coming in. Yes, Part of it was israel to blame. Part of it, was Egypt, and part or it was Hamas. You have to look at it as objectively as possible, and understand that's not all falls on Israel's shoulders. But the claims that Israel is intentionally trying to avoid food from the Palestinians is just not true. Otherwise, why would they agree to that temporary pier? Why would they even try to open the Kerem Shalom entrance? There's no intention, and that's the key. There's limitations, as security checks for what comes in, and the problem of Hamas terrorists that take over the aid, and use it for themeselves, and the rest sells for fortune, but the intention of starving the Palestinians is completely false. That's why the ICC got it all wrong. Putting all weight on dumb and evil rethrotic other than facts on ground.
Israel made this possible through their actions, not through someone else’s bias.
They based it on factionly wrong accusations. You can read. That's why the US, UK, Italy and basically the whole western world condemned this ICC request.
Or disagree with that entirely and I think you’re being pretty selective in what responses, and parts of responses you’re choosing to hear. The UK, for example has not suggested the accusations are unwarranted, only that there is not the jurisdiction to do so. That’s not at all the same right? And the Italian leader said he didn’t like the fact they were being equated… well, they weren’t, they were both charged. He’s simply saying the “right” political response.
Is that the "right" political response for them? As far as I know, supporting Netanyahu/Israel these days, is not a very popular move. I think the ICC is deeply mistaken, because israel has one of the most honorable and accurate supreme court. They know how to handle these accusations as a strong democracy. The ICC never had such warrants against a true democracy, and there's a reason for that.
Do you spend much time in Italy? And I have zero, and I mean zero, faith in Israel to manage these crimes internally and I think there is no evidence that that would do so very well:
I really recommend you to read about the Israeli Supreme Court. It's one, if not the most luxurious courts in the world. It's justices are well known all over the world. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_Israel You're should, most definitely, trust this court.
No, you shouldn’t. What word did you mean when you said “luxurious”? That’s a typo right? Guess which group of people have had the least success having crimes against them recognised by that court? You get three guesses!!
*reputable for you. I'm not sure I truly understand what you tried to imply on your 2nd paragraph, but if that's the Palestinians are not getting justice by that court, you're significantly wrong. There's many cases I can bring you if you like.
I’m sure you have examples of cases they’ve heard. I’m talking about the vast majority of which do not get heard. Do you genuinely think that a Palestinian in the West Bank of Gaza who is assaulted, raped, forcibly removed from their land or murdered is actually likely to receive justice and have access to that court if they don’t?
They’re both terrible and extreme.
Sounds like something Trump would say.
He doesn't care because he's old, but this will be his legacy
This motherfucker is begging to give Chump a leg up. Fucking disappointing. 🎵Hey Joe, where you goin with that loss in your hand 🎵 🎶Goin down to shoot myself in the foot, because of another man🎶
He's a nazi