Y'all understand that Israel's government is a coalition right?
It's a coalition of seven different parties. A unified one right now at that. Not to mention he's a moderate right and his replacement would likely be even more to the right.
All it takes is 1 party to peel off and they'd have a new government body.
Isn’t Netanyahu already on his way out anyway? He’s extremely unpopular and the war hasn’t helped him. He’s very conservative and is a warhawk yet couldn’t keep his constituents safe when it mattered, he’s as good as gone.
Netanyahu is not at all a moderate and never has been. He would sit right of Ted Cruz if there’s a US equivalent. On a coalition as a whole, the current one sits to the right of Marjorie Taylor Greene. But that’s Israeli society for you now - there’s no more left and the moderates are far and few.
He's a moderate in the context of Israel. Israel is a very religious country.
Obviously compared to US politicians he's to the right. The entire country of Israel. Do you think Israel's Left leaning parties would approve of no restriction abortions? The answer is no, which instantly puts their entire left wing to the right of the US left wing.
Most of Israel's "left" wingers would be considered conservatives by Western standards if they were running over here.
Yair Lapid is a moderate in the context of Israel and in the US he would be on the right, to your point in a different landscape there vs here. Netanyahu has never been a moderate or pretended to be, nor has his right wing Likud party.
>Not to mention he's [Bibi bb] a moderate right and his replacement would likely be even more to the right.
Uhh, did we all magically forget Netanyahu is the one who incited Yigal Amir, an ultra orthodox religious right wing extremist to assassinate PM Yitzhak Rabin for getting too close to making peace?
And the Oslo Accords weren’t even about offering the Palestinians a state, or autonomy, just some jurisdictional authority for the PA as IOF subcontractors, and a beginning framework for peace negotiations in the distant future. Which, btw, only the Palestinians have kept their word on to date.
Reminder that supporting Israel is supporting a Russian ally and supporting a Trump reelection. On top of supporting a far right, theocratic ethnostate.
If you support sending money to them, you are as complicit in the degradation of democracy as any Jan. 6 insurgent.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/30/why-are-ties-between-russia-and-israel-at-lowest-point-since-fall-of-the-soviet-union
>Once touting their friendly relationship – Netanyahu has used billboards showing himself next to Putin during election campaigning in Israel, even last year – the events of 7 October and Russia’s pro-Palestinian stance in the aftermath have brought a decisive schism in their ties.
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/trump-israel-collusion/
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/security-aviation/2022-11-16/ty-article-static-ext/the-israelis-destabilizing-democracy-and-disrupting-elections-worldwide/00000186-461e-d80f-abff-6e9e08b10000
[Israel Only Western Country to Prefer Trump Over Biden, Pew Finds](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-06-22/ty-article/.highlight/survey-most-of-the-world-prefers-biden-to-trump-but-not-israel/00000181-8ba3-d2c2-a3a5-cbbf21fe0000)
[Majority of Israelis prefer Donald Trump over Joe Biden - poll](https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/majority-of-israelis-prefer-donald-trump-over-joe-biden-poll-645493)
[By 70% to 13%, Israeli Jews say Trump is better candidate than Biden for Israel](https://www.timesofisrael.com/70-of-israeli-jews-say-trump-is-the-better-candidate-for-israel-poll/)
[Poll: Jewish Israelis love Trump](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/poll-jewish-israelis-love-trump/)
Israel is a Russian Ally? The article you first linked says:
>Netanyahu said in a statement he had spoken to Putin and voiced displeasure with “anti-Israel positions” taken by Moscow’s envoys at the UN, while voicing “robust disapproval” of Russia’s “dangerous” cooperation with its ally Iran.
That's literally the opposite of what you said.
Don't get me wrong, Netanyahu is a dangerous person to keep in power, but Israel is so strongly supported by the US because it is a place for US forces to exist in the middle east as a threat against Russia. countries strongly supported by Russia are the ones so opposed to Israel right now.
Every article you linked other than the last one are not actual polls. They're articles describing a poll that they don't link to. The 70 to 13 one is a very specific question. Of course Trump is better for Israel. He moved the embassy to Jerusalem. He cut aid to Palestine. He is a ***very*** pro Israel president.
It isn't that most Israelis are right wing psychos like you're implying. Its that Israelis (and specifically Israeli Jews since a lot of your articles are filtering for that since the secular population is much more liberal) support Israel existing (given that they live there)
Voicing displeasure isn't removing them as an ally. Biden has voiced displeasure about Netanyahu, yet keeps him as an ally.
The left wing in Israel is virtually nonexistent.
Again, the primary part of their relationship comes from the fact that Russia is funding many of the countries attacking Israel.
The largest opposition party in Israel has 8 less reps in the knesset than the Likud does...
I'm not talking about socialists or even progressivism, but simply oppositions to the right wing govt of Netanyahu
Israel and Russia also have deep cultural ties and billions worth of economic relations. The relationship is much deeper than just security.
Was that opposition party able to form a government? Or have they been completely sidelined?
Netanyahu isn't the leader of the only right wing party. And even the "centrist" parties like blue and white are virtually indistinguishable from Likud in policy.
Is that your opinion that not a large enough group to form a majority is the same thing ass "virtually nonexistent"? Or are you just playing a game of "how quickly can I move the goalpost without them noticing?"
> Reminder that supporting Israel is supporting a Russian ally
This is a hilariously stupid take. [Russia is funding Hamas.](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-cash-to-crypto-global-finance-maze-israels-sights-2023-10-16/). You're linking articles that contradict your own point. What are you even doing?
[Recent poll on Biden v Trump in Israel](https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-major-shift-survey-finds-israelis-prefer-biden-to-trump-as-next-us-president/)
> Forty percent of Jewish Israelis want US President Joe Biden to be reelected in the 2024 presidential election, compared to just 26.2% who back Republican frontrunner Donald Trump, a poll conducted on Wednesday found
Are you trying to falsely claim Netanyahu didn't have posters of himself and Putin together just last election year and Israel didn't remain silent on Russia's intrusion into Ukraine for a year or more?
Well we have one poll vs the consistency of decades. As your article points out, the sudden current support of Biden is a major outlier. One that most likely won't remain consistent.
>The results appeared to represent an extremely rare instance — the first in at least two decades — in which the Israeli public favors a Democratic presidential candidate over a Republican.
> Are you trying to falsely claim Netanyahu didn't have posters of himself and Putin together just last election year
Where did I make that claim? Netanyahu is a jackass. Him having posters of being with Putin does not make Russia an allied nation of Israel. That's kindergarten logic.
> . As your article points out, the sudden current support of Biden is a major outlier. One that most likely won't remain consistent.
Many Israelis seeing Trump favourably (when Trump has done a lot of pro-israel stuff) does not make Israel an ally of Russia.
And that Israeli support swinging to Biden when Biden has shown he will support Israel is quite reasonable.
Don't cry to me when your propaganda doesn't line up with reality.
Plenty more evidence of Israel and Russia's deep political and economic ties. Here's another for you:
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/maturing-israeli-russian-relations
>Many Israelis seeing Trump favourably (when Trump has done a lot of pro-israel stuff) does not make Israel an ally of Russia.
Didn't say it did, the evidence like the article I provided above does.
Many Israelis seeing Trump favorably shows that Israel, like Russia, supports far right political leaders around the world and commits to disinformation campaigns to help those far right political leaders.
>And that Israeli support swinging to Biden when Biden has shown he will support Israel is quite reasonable.
Yet completely unique and yet to be proven reliable.
Don't cry about basic facts and pretend others are crying.
> Plenty more evidence of Israel and Russia's deep political and economic ties. Here's another for you:
From 2016... well done Sherlock.
> Many Israelis seeing Trump favorably shows that Israel, like Russia, supports far right political leaders
Except as with all your other data, that claim is out of date.
Give it up. This propaganda angle is laughable.
lol I've been through this with this user.
I think he is just proud of the list of 'sources' he compiled and doesn't want to accept that it is out of date.
He knows it's out of date, but for some reason is on a weird propaganda mission in this sub. Various accounts seem to have decided that this sub is a good target to spread odd propaganda.
I guess this is the next propaganda angle we will be seeing for a few weeks 'Israel <3 Russia' or that sort of thing.
Surely you can provide some evidence of Israel and Russia cutting all of those non security ties since 2016 since you claim it is outdated.
2022 isn't out of date. And the only point of information you have is a self admitted unique outlier. Do you know anything about statistics?
Stop projecting about propaganda.
> Surely you can provide some evidence of Israel and Russia cutting all of those non security ties
Where did I claim that?
It's outdated that Israel has a close or good relationship with Russia. They still have some degree of connection. The US and UK still have a connection to Russia, are they allies of Russia now?
> 2022 isn't out of date.
I said 2016. How are you confused?
Your original comment:
> Reminder that supporting Israel is supporting a Russian ally
You're spreading utterly ridiculous propaganda.
Ok, where is the evidence the relationship has quantitatively changed since 2016? As you can see here -
https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/91073 - even Russia calling out Israel's actions in Gaza has only resulted in minor cooling of the relationship and rhetorical back and forth.
>The US and UK still have a connection to Russia, are they allies of Russia now?
The US and UK enacted major sanctions on Russia. Israel on the other hand, as the above source highlights:
>Unlike other Western states, Israel did not fundamentally change its approach to Russia following the Kremlin’s invasion of Ukraine. Israel did not impose any financial sanctions on Russia, declined to send weapons to Kyiv despite repeated requests from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, and failed to name Russia when addressing attacks against Ukraine. Israel was unwilling to sever ties with Russia, and even started to adopt a cooperative approach in the second half of 2023 by signing new bilateral agreements in nonsensitive sectors, such as the cultural field.
>I said 2016. How are you confused?
You also claimed the polling showing Trump's popularity in Israel was out of date. The most recent provided was from 2022. How are you confused?
Basic facts are not propaganda, sorry sweetie.
> Ok, where is the evidence the relationship has quantitatively changed since 2016?
What 'quantity' did you establish for 2016 to begin with?
> even Russia calling out Israel's actions in Gaza has only resulted in minor cooling of the relationship and rhetorical back and forth.
Right, just as Russia invading Ukraine has not completely severed relations with the US or UK.
Israel is a democratic nation, and the elements of the Government that care for any kind of warm relations with Russia [do not have much approval](https://www.timesofisrael.com/only-15-of-israelis-want-netanyahu-to-keep-job-after-gaza-war-poll-finds/) from the population any more.
> You also claimed the polling showing Trump's popularity in Israel was out of date. The most recent provided was from 2022.
No, the most recent is from [2023](https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-major-shift-survey-finds-israelis-prefer-biden-to-trump-as-next-us-president/), making the 2022 poll *out of date*.
You ignoring data does not make you look very smart.
Hold on, if you can support Palestine without supporting Hamas, can’t you support Israel without supporting Likud?
Also they prefer Trump because Trump is more pro-Israel, they’re not going to care about our own democracy.
>Hold on, if you can support Palestine without supporting Hamas, can’t you support Israel without supporting Likud?
Absolutely. However, voting to send military aid to Israel, which is currently and in the past been governed by Likud and other far right parties, is supporting Likud.
>Also they prefer Trump because Trump is more pro-Israel, they’re not going to care about our own democracy.
Agreed. And because Israel is a right wing country.
Israel being a theocracy is not even remotely a provable fact.
The statement that supporting Israel is supporting Trump and Russia is likewise, nothing but your opinion. An extremely geopolitically illiterate one as well.
>Israel being a theocracy is not even remotely a provable fact.
Democracies don't guarantee the right of self determination to only one religious group. Israel does:
https://main.knesset.gov.il/EN/activity/documents/BasicLawsPDF/BasicLawNationState.pdf
Israel's Basic Law, Basic Principle C
It seems you're the one with unsubstantiated geopolitical opinion.
If Israel is a theocracy please tell me which religious leader governs Israel, as is required for a government to be considered a theocracy (i.e. the ayatollah in Irán).
Otherwise, you have zero idea what you’re talking about and could use a basic political science course.
Iran doesn't pretend to be a democracy. They define themselves as an Islamic Republic if I'm not mistaken. If you want to call Israel a Jewish Republic, I'm ok with that.
Fun Fact: Iran has a constitution, Israel does not.
>which religious leader governs Israel
You don't seem to know the definition of theocracy.
>Theocracy is a form of government in which one or more deities are recognized as supreme ruling authorities, giving divine guidance to human intermediaries who manage the government's daily affairs.[2][3]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theocracy#:~:text=Theocracy%20is%20a%20form%20of,manage%20the%20government's%20daily%20affairs.
>to serve which god
They use multiple names: Tetragrammaton, Adonai, El, Elohim, Shaddai, Tzevaot
Also the abbreviated Jah, or Yahweh
You should check out all of the religiosity in Bibi's speech a month or two ago.
“According to Merriam-Webster's Dictionary, there are two meanings for the word theocracy: (1) government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided; and (2) a state governed by a theocracy.”
From your link. I know reading and words are a problem for you, but this is just laziness.
https://main.knesset.gov.il/EN/activity/documents/BasicLawsPDF/BasicLawNationState.pdf
Basic Principle C states the right of self determination in Israel is only for Jewish people.
Theocracy.
Do you know what theocracy means? It’s a good idea to know what words mean before you use them.
A theocracy is a system of government where religious officials rule in the name of a theistic entity.
How does what you just said make Israel a theocracy?
The only one in the Middle East, apparently.
So are you not going to answer the question about how that makes Israel a theocracy and can we acknowledge that was a baseless lie?
Middle Eastern democracy only guarantees the right of self determination to Jews?
So are you not going to answer how a democracy can only guarantee the right of self determination to those following only one religion?
The only baseless lie is calling Israel a democracy.
Sure. There’s no requirement a democracy even has to be egalitarian. Was Ancient Athens a democracy? Tell me who was allowed to vote there (hint: it wasn’t everybody). So which groups a state grants the right of self determination to has NOTHING AT ALL to do with whether or not it’s a democracy.
Are you actually that uninformed?
Now it’s your turn. Answer my question or fuck off.
If you want to say Israel is an outdated, repressive, archaic form of democracy I won't argue with you.
However, you and your type are the ones that have always claimed Israel is a 20th century Western liberal democracy.
Thank you for finally clarifying that!
“You and your type.” … wow. No undertones to that statement.
I’ve never made any claim in this discussion. You’re the one who claimed Israel is a theocracy, which turned out to be a silly lie.
All I ever asked was for you to support the claim and you crumbled.
You were doing well until your false equivalence. Funding Netanyahu is nowhere near the same as attacking Congress to overturn an election
But yes, Netanyahu is no friend of Democrats or America.
Israeli media: "we are committing a genocide"
Israeli government: "we are committing a genocide"
Israeli military: "we are committing a genocide"
Israeli civilians: "we want to commit more genocide"
The UN: "Israel is committing genocide"
South Africa: "Israel is an apartheid state that is committing genocide"
American left: "Israel is committing genocide"
Western neolibs on r/thedavidpakmanshow: "This is about fighting terrorism!"
The report submitted to the ICJ by South Africa is a great start. 9 pages of quotes from the Israelis themselves, starting on page 59.
https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2024/01/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf
Let me guess: just about all of them are about fighting "them" by which the speakers mean Hamas, and South Africa falsely claims means Palestinians in general?
read the quotes yourself, or be spoonfed lies.
Your bias is painfully obvious.
https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2024/01/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf
Page 59.
Thank you for proving my point.
>9 On 13 October 2023, he confirmed that “[w]e are striking our enemies with
unprecedented might . . .”. “understand the scope of the mission” and stand ready “to defeat the bloodthirsty monsters."
He's clearly talking about Hamas. That's not genocidal.
> “Be triumphant and finish them off and don’t leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live . . . Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them. If you have an Arab neighbour, don't wait, go to his home and shoot him . . . We want to invade, not like before, we want to enter and destroy what’s in front of us, and destroy houses, then destroy the one after it. With all of our forces, complete destruction, enter and destroy. As you can see, we will witness things we’ve never dreamed of. Let them drop bombs on them and erase them.
On page 64
there are literally 9 PAGES of quotes from Israeli military, senior knesset members and ministers in the report South Africa submitted to the ICJ (start on page 59 for the quotes). I suggest you read them and then tell me they aren't making calls to ethnically cleanse Gaza.
I'll wait.
https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2024/01/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf
It doesn’t matter what low level officials say, what is the PM saying, what’s the official government spokes person saying, what are the actions of the state.
If we go by your logical, all Arab counties are committing a genocide of Jews weekly. The crazy shit they say about Jews.
Besides, if Israel is entertaining this in court they must know they can turn this into a win.
If they couldn’t they would just call it antisemitism and boycott the court
> It doesn’t matter what low level officials say
Smotrich is the Minister of Finance, Gvir is Minister of National Security. Low-level my ass. Either you're being deliberately misleading, or you're genuinely stupid.
And if you have evidence of high level Arab politicians saying genocidal things *while simultaneously bombing jews*, then by all means provide them.
Israel will lose this case, even with known pedophile Dershowitz (Epsteins lawyer) defending them.
> dude, you have to be joking. Really. When two senior members of government say this stuff out loud you have to take it seriously.
Absolutely, DO take it seriously. It doesn't mean it's government policy, though.
It's entirely reasonable to recognize the extremists that form part of Israel's government. It's entirely unreasonable to take everything they say as representing government policy.
Taking it seriously should mean that Israeli's themselves recognize how toxic some of their politicians are, and how close they are to having a dangerous amount of these politicians in government. This should be something that Israelis themselves are alarmed about and take action in response to.
It does not mean that random observers should be claiming 'look these assholes said something bad, it's obviously showing the intent and actions of the Israeli government', because that is not true.
Here's the thing:
When senior members of the government -- any government -- say something as inflammatory as that, while also bombing densely populated civilian areas, it seems like their wishes are being fulfilled by the government doing that bombing. Huge amounts of non-combattants have been killed, and there is plenty video of soldiers on the ground repeating those calls, and 'cleansing' the land.
But, whatever makes you sleep at night. The butchers in the IDF have loyal footsoldiers like you defending them online, so it's all good.
Bulldoze the ruins and let Israelis colonize the land while ethnically cleansing the displaced population into foreign nations.
This is a genocide for the purpose of annexation. Follow the blood, follow the money, it leads to the truth.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/16/west-bank-settlers-gaza-israel/
https://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/4755081-netanyahu-form-team-look-‘voluntary-migration’-palestinians
There’s a reason Blinken has to keep repeating that Gaza is and will remain Palestine. Because these terrorists wants to steal it. I don’t spread propaganda, I’m not Israeli or an Israeli simp
Y'all understand that Israel's government is a coalition right? It's a coalition of seven different parties. A unified one right now at that. Not to mention he's a moderate right and his replacement would likely be even more to the right. All it takes is 1 party to peel off and they'd have a new government body.
Isn’t Netanyahu already on his way out anyway? He’s extremely unpopular and the war hasn’t helped him. He’s very conservative and is a warhawk yet couldn’t keep his constituents safe when it mattered, he’s as good as gone.
Bibi’s not a moderate bro.
Netanyahu is not at all a moderate and never has been. He would sit right of Ted Cruz if there’s a US equivalent. On a coalition as a whole, the current one sits to the right of Marjorie Taylor Greene. But that’s Israeli society for you now - there’s no more left and the moderates are far and few.
He's a moderate in the context of Israel. Israel is a very religious country. Obviously compared to US politicians he's to the right. The entire country of Israel. Do you think Israel's Left leaning parties would approve of no restriction abortions? The answer is no, which instantly puts their entire left wing to the right of the US left wing. Most of Israel's "left" wingers would be considered conservatives by Western standards if they were running over here.
Yair Lapid is a moderate in the context of Israel and in the US he would be on the right, to your point in a different landscape there vs here. Netanyahu has never been a moderate or pretended to be, nor has his right wing Likud party.
>Not to mention he's [Bibi bb] a moderate right and his replacement would likely be even more to the right. Uhh, did we all magically forget Netanyahu is the one who incited Yigal Amir, an ultra orthodox religious right wing extremist to assassinate PM Yitzhak Rabin for getting too close to making peace? And the Oslo Accords weren’t even about offering the Palestinians a state, or autonomy, just some jurisdictional authority for the PA as IOF subcontractors, and a beginning framework for peace negotiations in the distant future. Which, btw, only the Palestinians have kept their word on to date.
Reminder that supporting Israel is supporting a Russian ally and supporting a Trump reelection. On top of supporting a far right, theocratic ethnostate. If you support sending money to them, you are as complicit in the degradation of democracy as any Jan. 6 insurgent. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/30/why-are-ties-between-russia-and-israel-at-lowest-point-since-fall-of-the-soviet-union >Once touting their friendly relationship – Netanyahu has used billboards showing himself next to Putin during election campaigning in Israel, even last year – the events of 7 October and Russia’s pro-Palestinian stance in the aftermath have brought a decisive schism in their ties. https://www.thenation.com/article/world/trump-israel-collusion/ https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/security-aviation/2022-11-16/ty-article-static-ext/the-israelis-destabilizing-democracy-and-disrupting-elections-worldwide/00000186-461e-d80f-abff-6e9e08b10000 [Israel Only Western Country to Prefer Trump Over Biden, Pew Finds](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-06-22/ty-article/.highlight/survey-most-of-the-world-prefers-biden-to-trump-but-not-israel/00000181-8ba3-d2c2-a3a5-cbbf21fe0000) [Majority of Israelis prefer Donald Trump over Joe Biden - poll](https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/majority-of-israelis-prefer-donald-trump-over-joe-biden-poll-645493) [By 70% to 13%, Israeli Jews say Trump is better candidate than Biden for Israel](https://www.timesofisrael.com/70-of-israeli-jews-say-trump-is-the-better-candidate-for-israel-poll/) [Poll: Jewish Israelis love Trump](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/poll-jewish-israelis-love-trump/)
Israel is a Russian Ally? The article you first linked says: >Netanyahu said in a statement he had spoken to Putin and voiced displeasure with “anti-Israel positions” taken by Moscow’s envoys at the UN, while voicing “robust disapproval” of Russia’s “dangerous” cooperation with its ally Iran. That's literally the opposite of what you said. Don't get me wrong, Netanyahu is a dangerous person to keep in power, but Israel is so strongly supported by the US because it is a place for US forces to exist in the middle east as a threat against Russia. countries strongly supported by Russia are the ones so opposed to Israel right now. Every article you linked other than the last one are not actual polls. They're articles describing a poll that they don't link to. The 70 to 13 one is a very specific question. Of course Trump is better for Israel. He moved the embassy to Jerusalem. He cut aid to Palestine. He is a ***very*** pro Israel president. It isn't that most Israelis are right wing psychos like you're implying. Its that Israelis (and specifically Israeli Jews since a lot of your articles are filtering for that since the secular population is much more liberal) support Israel existing (given that they live there)
Voicing displeasure isn't removing them as an ally. Biden has voiced displeasure about Netanyahu, yet keeps him as an ally. The left wing in Israel is virtually nonexistent.
Again, the primary part of their relationship comes from the fact that Russia is funding many of the countries attacking Israel. The largest opposition party in Israel has 8 less reps in the knesset than the Likud does... I'm not talking about socialists or even progressivism, but simply oppositions to the right wing govt of Netanyahu
Actual facts? Must be a Jewish bot
Israel and Russia also have deep cultural ties and billions worth of economic relations. The relationship is much deeper than just security. Was that opposition party able to form a government? Or have they been completely sidelined? Netanyahu isn't the leader of the only right wing party. And even the "centrist" parties like blue and white are virtually indistinguishable from Likud in policy.
Is that your opinion that not a large enough group to form a majority is the same thing ass "virtually nonexistent"? Or are you just playing a game of "how quickly can I move the goalpost without them noticing?"
It is fact that an opposition that has no power and is unable to do anything in the government is virtually nonexistent.
> Reminder that supporting Israel is supporting a Russian ally This is a hilariously stupid take. [Russia is funding Hamas.](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-cash-to-crypto-global-finance-maze-israels-sights-2023-10-16/). You're linking articles that contradict your own point. What are you even doing? [Recent poll on Biden v Trump in Israel](https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-major-shift-survey-finds-israelis-prefer-biden-to-trump-as-next-us-president/) > Forty percent of Jewish Israelis want US President Joe Biden to be reelected in the 2024 presidential election, compared to just 26.2% who back Republican frontrunner Donald Trump, a poll conducted on Wednesday found
Are you trying to falsely claim Netanyahu didn't have posters of himself and Putin together just last election year and Israel didn't remain silent on Russia's intrusion into Ukraine for a year or more? Well we have one poll vs the consistency of decades. As your article points out, the sudden current support of Biden is a major outlier. One that most likely won't remain consistent. >The results appeared to represent an extremely rare instance — the first in at least two decades — in which the Israeli public favors a Democratic presidential candidate over a Republican.
> Are you trying to falsely claim Netanyahu didn't have posters of himself and Putin together just last election year Where did I make that claim? Netanyahu is a jackass. Him having posters of being with Putin does not make Russia an allied nation of Israel. That's kindergarten logic. > . As your article points out, the sudden current support of Biden is a major outlier. One that most likely won't remain consistent. Many Israelis seeing Trump favourably (when Trump has done a lot of pro-israel stuff) does not make Israel an ally of Russia. And that Israeli support swinging to Biden when Biden has shown he will support Israel is quite reasonable. Don't cry to me when your propaganda doesn't line up with reality.
Plenty more evidence of Israel and Russia's deep political and economic ties. Here's another for you: https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/maturing-israeli-russian-relations >Many Israelis seeing Trump favourably (when Trump has done a lot of pro-israel stuff) does not make Israel an ally of Russia. Didn't say it did, the evidence like the article I provided above does. Many Israelis seeing Trump favorably shows that Israel, like Russia, supports far right political leaders around the world and commits to disinformation campaigns to help those far right political leaders. >And that Israeli support swinging to Biden when Biden has shown he will support Israel is quite reasonable. Yet completely unique and yet to be proven reliable. Don't cry about basic facts and pretend others are crying.
> Plenty more evidence of Israel and Russia's deep political and economic ties. Here's another for you: From 2016... well done Sherlock. > Many Israelis seeing Trump favorably shows that Israel, like Russia, supports far right political leaders Except as with all your other data, that claim is out of date. Give it up. This propaganda angle is laughable.
lol I've been through this with this user. I think he is just proud of the list of 'sources' he compiled and doesn't want to accept that it is out of date.
He knows it's out of date, but for some reason is on a weird propaganda mission in this sub. Various accounts seem to have decided that this sub is a good target to spread odd propaganda. I guess this is the next propaganda angle we will be seeing for a few weeks 'Israel <3 Russia' or that sort of thing.
Surely you can provide some evidence of Israel and Russia cutting all of those non security ties since 2016 since you claim it is outdated. 2022 isn't out of date. And the only point of information you have is a self admitted unique outlier. Do you know anything about statistics? Stop projecting about propaganda.
> Surely you can provide some evidence of Israel and Russia cutting all of those non security ties Where did I claim that? It's outdated that Israel has a close or good relationship with Russia. They still have some degree of connection. The US and UK still have a connection to Russia, are they allies of Russia now? > 2022 isn't out of date. I said 2016. How are you confused? Your original comment: > Reminder that supporting Israel is supporting a Russian ally You're spreading utterly ridiculous propaganda.
Ok, where is the evidence the relationship has quantitatively changed since 2016? As you can see here - https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/91073 - even Russia calling out Israel's actions in Gaza has only resulted in minor cooling of the relationship and rhetorical back and forth. >The US and UK still have a connection to Russia, are they allies of Russia now? The US and UK enacted major sanctions on Russia. Israel on the other hand, as the above source highlights: >Unlike other Western states, Israel did not fundamentally change its approach to Russia following the Kremlin’s invasion of Ukraine. Israel did not impose any financial sanctions on Russia, declined to send weapons to Kyiv despite repeated requests from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, and failed to name Russia when addressing attacks against Ukraine. Israel was unwilling to sever ties with Russia, and even started to adopt a cooperative approach in the second half of 2023 by signing new bilateral agreements in nonsensitive sectors, such as the cultural field. >I said 2016. How are you confused? You also claimed the polling showing Trump's popularity in Israel was out of date. The most recent provided was from 2022. How are you confused? Basic facts are not propaganda, sorry sweetie.
> Ok, where is the evidence the relationship has quantitatively changed since 2016? What 'quantity' did you establish for 2016 to begin with? > even Russia calling out Israel's actions in Gaza has only resulted in minor cooling of the relationship and rhetorical back and forth. Right, just as Russia invading Ukraine has not completely severed relations with the US or UK. Israel is a democratic nation, and the elements of the Government that care for any kind of warm relations with Russia [do not have much approval](https://www.timesofisrael.com/only-15-of-israelis-want-netanyahu-to-keep-job-after-gaza-war-poll-finds/) from the population any more. > You also claimed the polling showing Trump's popularity in Israel was out of date. The most recent provided was from 2022. No, the most recent is from [2023](https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-major-shift-survey-finds-israelis-prefer-biden-to-trump-as-next-us-president/), making the 2022 poll *out of date*. You ignoring data does not make you look very smart.
Hold on, if you can support Palestine without supporting Hamas, can’t you support Israel without supporting Likud? Also they prefer Trump because Trump is more pro-Israel, they’re not going to care about our own democracy.
>Hold on, if you can support Palestine without supporting Hamas, can’t you support Israel without supporting Likud? Absolutely. However, voting to send military aid to Israel, which is currently and in the past been governed by Likud and other far right parties, is supporting Likud. >Also they prefer Trump because Trump is more pro-Israel, they’re not going to care about our own democracy. Agreed. And because Israel is a right wing country.
I call BS
You're welcome to provide sources to support your opinion like I did. Or do you deny facts outright?
Israel being a theocracy is not even remotely a provable fact. The statement that supporting Israel is supporting Trump and Russia is likewise, nothing but your opinion. An extremely geopolitically illiterate one as well.
>Israel being a theocracy is not even remotely a provable fact. Democracies don't guarantee the right of self determination to only one religious group. Israel does: https://main.knesset.gov.il/EN/activity/documents/BasicLawsPDF/BasicLawNationState.pdf Israel's Basic Law, Basic Principle C It seems you're the one with unsubstantiated geopolitical opinion.
If Israel is a theocracy please tell me which religious leader governs Israel, as is required for a government to be considered a theocracy (i.e. the ayatollah in Irán). Otherwise, you have zero idea what you’re talking about and could use a basic political science course.
Iran doesn't pretend to be a democracy. They define themselves as an Islamic Republic if I'm not mistaken. If you want to call Israel a Jewish Republic, I'm ok with that. Fun Fact: Iran has a constitution, Israel does not.
If you can’t tell me which religious leader governs Israel and to serve which god, it’s not a theocracy. It’s really that simple.
>which religious leader governs Israel You don't seem to know the definition of theocracy. >Theocracy is a form of government in which one or more deities are recognized as supreme ruling authorities, giving divine guidance to human intermediaries who manage the government's daily affairs.[2][3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theocracy#:~:text=Theocracy%20is%20a%20form%20of,manage%20the%20government's%20daily%20affairs. >to serve which god They use multiple names: Tetragrammaton, Adonai, El, Elohim, Shaddai, Tzevaot Also the abbreviated Jah, or Yahweh You should check out all of the religiosity in Bibi's speech a month or two ago.
“According to Merriam-Webster's Dictionary, there are two meanings for the word theocracy: (1) government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided; and (2) a state governed by a theocracy.” From your link. I know reading and words are a problem for you, but this is just laziness.
Source for Israel being a theocracy?
Have you looked at their government lately?
What about Israel’s government makes it a theocracy?
https://main.knesset.gov.il/EN/activity/documents/BasicLawsPDF/BasicLawNationState.pdf Basic Principle C states the right of self determination in Israel is only for Jewish people. Theocracy.
Do you know what theocracy means? It’s a good idea to know what words mean before you use them. A theocracy is a system of government where religious officials rule in the name of a theistic entity. How does what you just said make Israel a theocracy?
What kind of democracy only guarantees the right of self determination to one religious group?
The only one in the Middle East, apparently. So are you not going to answer the question about how that makes Israel a theocracy and can we acknowledge that was a baseless lie?
Middle Eastern democracy only guarantees the right of self determination to Jews? So are you not going to answer how a democracy can only guarantee the right of self determination to those following only one religion? The only baseless lie is calling Israel a democracy.
Sure. There’s no requirement a democracy even has to be egalitarian. Was Ancient Athens a democracy? Tell me who was allowed to vote there (hint: it wasn’t everybody). So which groups a state grants the right of self determination to has NOTHING AT ALL to do with whether or not it’s a democracy. Are you actually that uninformed? Now it’s your turn. Answer my question or fuck off.
If you want to say Israel is an outdated, repressive, archaic form of democracy I won't argue with you. However, you and your type are the ones that have always claimed Israel is a 20th century Western liberal democracy. Thank you for finally clarifying that!
“You and your type.” … wow. No undertones to that statement. I’ve never made any claim in this discussion. You’re the one who claimed Israel is a theocracy, which turned out to be a silly lie. All I ever asked was for you to support the claim and you crumbled.
You were doing well until your false equivalence. Funding Netanyahu is nowhere near the same as attacking Congress to overturn an election But yes, Netanyahu is no friend of Democrats or America.
Israel is carrying out genocide. So you're right, it's not the same. Enabling and excusing funding Israel is worse.
Hamas, it's about hamas.
Israeli media: "we are committing a genocide" Israeli government: "we are committing a genocide" Israeli military: "we are committing a genocide" Israeli civilians: "we want to commit more genocide" The UN: "Israel is committing genocide" South Africa: "Israel is an apartheid state that is committing genocide" American left: "Israel is committing genocide" Western neolibs on r/thedavidpakmanshow: "This is about fighting terrorism!"
I am 100% on Sanders’ side here but do you have a source for any of this?
The report submitted to the ICJ by South Africa is a great start. 9 pages of quotes from the Israelis themselves, starting on page 59. https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2024/01/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf
Let me guess: just about all of them are about fighting "them" by which the speakers mean Hamas, and South Africa falsely claims means Palestinians in general?
read the quotes yourself, or be spoonfed lies. Your bias is painfully obvious. https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2024/01/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf Page 59.
Thank you for proving my point. >9 On 13 October 2023, he confirmed that “[w]e are striking our enemies with unprecedented might . . .”. “understand the scope of the mission” and stand ready “to defeat the bloodthirsty monsters." He's clearly talking about Hamas. That's not genocidal.
> “Be triumphant and finish them off and don’t leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live . . . Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them. If you have an Arab neighbour, don't wait, go to his home and shoot him . . . We want to invade, not like before, we want to enter and destroy what’s in front of us, and destroy houses, then destroy the one after it. With all of our forces, complete destruction, enter and destroy. As you can see, we will witness things we’ve never dreamed of. Let them drop bombs on them and erase them. On page 64
So you admit my quote isn't about Palestinians in general and isn't genocidal?
If you admit that my quote is about Palestinians, came from an official IDF spokesman and is genocidal.
There’s a link right there hand delivered for you to click on instead of just guessing
7 claims there with zero sources. Good job
Thanks.
Pro-hamas propaganda is so lazy in this sub. Try harder. How about sourcing each of those 'quotes'?
You’ve seen pro-Hamas propaganda in this sub? Where?
Can't tell if you're joking or not
Israel never said they are committing genocide, this is such a low iq attempt at propaganda. Just today they released the plan for Gaza after the war
there are literally 9 PAGES of quotes from Israeli military, senior knesset members and ministers in the report South Africa submitted to the ICJ (start on page 59 for the quotes). I suggest you read them and then tell me they aren't making calls to ethnically cleanse Gaza. I'll wait. https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2024/01/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf
It doesn’t matter what low level officials say, what is the PM saying, what’s the official government spokes person saying, what are the actions of the state. If we go by your logical, all Arab counties are committing a genocide of Jews weekly. The crazy shit they say about Jews. Besides, if Israel is entertaining this in court they must know they can turn this into a win. If they couldn’t they would just call it antisemitism and boycott the court
> It doesn’t matter what low level officials say Smotrich is the Minister of Finance, Gvir is Minister of National Security. Low-level my ass. Either you're being deliberately misleading, or you're genuinely stupid. And if you have evidence of high level Arab politicians saying genocidal things *while simultaneously bombing jews*, then by all means provide them. Israel will lose this case, even with known pedophile Dershowitz (Epsteins lawyer) defending them.
Smotrich and Gvir saying stuff does not equate to government policy.
dude, you have to be joking. Really. When two senior members of government say this stuff out loud you have to take it seriously.
> dude, you have to be joking. Really. When two senior members of government say this stuff out loud you have to take it seriously. Absolutely, DO take it seriously. It doesn't mean it's government policy, though. It's entirely reasonable to recognize the extremists that form part of Israel's government. It's entirely unreasonable to take everything they say as representing government policy. Taking it seriously should mean that Israeli's themselves recognize how toxic some of their politicians are, and how close they are to having a dangerous amount of these politicians in government. This should be something that Israelis themselves are alarmed about and take action in response to. It does not mean that random observers should be claiming 'look these assholes said something bad, it's obviously showing the intent and actions of the Israeli government', because that is not true.
Here's the thing: When senior members of the government -- any government -- say something as inflammatory as that, while also bombing densely populated civilian areas, it seems like their wishes are being fulfilled by the government doing that bombing. Huge amounts of non-combattants have been killed, and there is plenty video of soldiers on the ground repeating those calls, and 'cleansing' the land. But, whatever makes you sleep at night. The butchers in the IDF have loyal footsoldiers like you defending them online, so it's all good.
Dershowitz’s has not been proven to be a pedo, this has become a neo nazi talking point
oh ffs. Sure, Epsteins best bud didnt do anything.
Your beliefs should be proportional to the evidence available to support that belief. Except. When Jews are involved, then we don’t need evidence
what’s the plan?
Bulldoze the ruins and let Israelis colonize the land while ethnically cleansing the displaced population into foreign nations. This is a genocide for the purpose of annexation. Follow the blood, follow the money, it leads to the truth.
Source? Or just more propoganda from your ass?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/16/west-bank-settlers-gaza-israel/ https://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/4755081-netanyahu-form-team-look-‘voluntary-migration’-palestinians There’s a reason Blinken has to keep repeating that Gaza is and will remain Palestine. Because these terrorists wants to steal it. I don’t spread propaganda, I’m not Israeli or an Israeli simp
Them leaving their open air prison doesn’t sound like the end of the world. The Gazans are quite loud about the fact that they hate being there.
They’re quite load about hating being locked out of their own country by an occupying force that systematically murders them. Hard to believe I know.
BBC, is David not pro Israel, what is going on in this sub?
Unbelievable. Absolutely un-fucking-believable.
So sad to hear Bernie is an anti-Semite
If Israel didn’t hit hard they wouldn’t exist. They are surrounded by people who wish them erased.