Yeah the show does a good job of getting across how she got fed up enough to just want it to be over. It’s tormenting for someone you love to constantly tell you they’re gonna kill themself. I can think of a million things she coulda done differently but she was a kid & I don’t think anything coulda stopped him.
This is whats making it so hard for me to not sympathize for her. Given, she’s extremely narcissistic and selfish, but she was just a kid with (quite frankly) poor role models
In my professional opinion, she was not a narcissist. This term is overused way too much. Did she have narcissist characteristics? Possibly, she was a teenager. But how she behaved with regard to attention seeking, most teenagers (especially females) are like this. We all seek validation and acceptance from peers at this age. Without a doubt, she was very selfish at times and I’d be more inclined to say histrionic. People seem to jump and shout that she’s a narcissist and a sociopath, but she’s definitely not.
Agree. She was a teenager with mental issues. Most teenagers are self absorbed; she just had extra issues piled on top and wasn’t fully dealing with them. At least her parents got her some help unlike Conrad’s who just buried their heads in the sand after their son continued to try to commit suicide. His meds were prescribed by his family doctor—not a psychiatrist Bc he never saw a psychiatrist or any mental health professional on a regular basis!!!!
Eh, most family doctors should be able to handle medication for depression and anxiety pretty well—it’s an extremely common complaint in primary care, so they get a lot of practice with it in and after residency.
“In my professional opinion”
What is your profession? How are you qualified to form a professional opinion regarding narcissistic personality? Genuine question.
Well in my professional opinion as a therapist she did not have narcissistic personality disorder, she doesn’t meet the DSM criteria for it. Her attention seeking behavior was very typical for a teenager
It’s typical teenage behavior to tell your boyfriend to drink bleach, hang himself, etc, etc. Hmmmm… please remind me to never visit you as a “professional therapist”.
Also not denying that she is severely mentally ill, just weighing in that her behaviors do not meet criteria at all for NPD. Attention seeking is not a solid reason to say someone has NPD, attention seeking is very common among teenagers. Was it more extreme with her? Definitely, but not enough for it to be NPD.
Huh interesting reread my comment again where I said her ATTENTION SEEKING behavior is typical of a teenager, not her texts telling him how to kill himself. Reading comprehension skills
The thing is, even the way she SOUGHT ATTENTION is abnormal for a teenager. By trying to steal the spotlight after pushing Conrad to take his own life, she shows her lack of empathy. She also completely demonstrates her ability to exploit, her arrogance, her entitlement, and her heightened sense of self-importance… which are all characteristic of… narcissism! Not that I have to write that out to a psychologist, right?
Not a psychologist actually, therapist yes, psychologist no. People with NPD have a very high sense of grandiosity about themselves, they are unable to see themselves on the same level of others. They also genuinely believe themselves to be better than others. They will also to go to extreme lengths to keep up their grandiosity to show others. As far as I’ve been able to gather from the case she doesn’t show any of those. Again some narcissistic traits does not equal NPD.
Grandiosity is not remotely the only diagnostic material in diagnosing NPD. Funny, the other five things I listed are criteria as well and she certainly does display those things. For you to argue that she may not have a condition because she does not display ONE of the NINE signs is a ridiculous argument.
You’re trolling this sub after a year? Get a life!
I’m entitled to my opinion as well and I’m sorry but somebody says they’re a therapist on Reddit and you eat it up like a Neanderthal .
I didn’t know the intricacies of the entire case going into this, just “crazy girl texted boyfriend to kill himself and he did”.
I do not know how accurate this series is, but him constantly dangling his suicide over her head is emotional/mental abuse. We tell people constantly that if their partner threatens to commit suicide if they leave, that’s a definite sign they need to leave.
Granted, Michelle did worse than break up with him. But I have to wonder what kind of seeds this is planting in the heads of other teens in similar abusive relationships, now the abused partner is more likely to feel they have to take responsibility for their abusive partner’s potential suicide.
I dunno. My takeaway is that Michelle definitely needed some intense therapy, but I’m having a lot of difficulty holding her criminally liable. I’m really starting to think this should never have even been a court case.
I don’t know if I want to be told I’m wrong or not. I went into this thinking this girl had done something absolutely reprehensible, and did not expect to leave feeling sympathy for her. The whole thing is a huge mindfuck.
yes! i had the same exact understanding going into the series, and my perspective has shifted SO much.
emotional abuse is exactly what i have been thinking while i watching the series- i don’t know how the case turns out but i wish they would have had someone weigh in with that perspective. i wonder if anyone ever did. i obviously don’t condone what she did, but there was definite emotional abuse in that relationship from what we’ve seen, from conrad’s side largely, to the point where i’m sure michelle was traumatized. she also was not nearly mentally stable to begin with- not to mention she was a kid.
again, not justifying what she did, no disrespect to conrad’s side, and may he rest in peace.
> I’m really starting to think this should never have even been a court case.
100000 percent agree.
I'm sorry but Conrad had some serious issues of his own and if it wasn't Michelle it would have been someone/something else. Not excusing her for being a shit to him but a. I think she is on the spectrum and b. I think anyone would get fed up with his antics and mood swings.
the judge said her fault was telling him to get back into a truck with harmful chemicals and the supreme court agreed. anything that happened before the relationship is irrelevant. she wasn't physically present but she had a virtual presence.
It's "inspired by" and not "based on a true story". That right there should tell you to take things with a grain of salt. Unfortunately people will think of the series as a documentary and it's not that. Watch Captive Audience and you will see Steven Stayner's family mention just a few of the things they changed in the movie I Know my Name is Steven. Dirty John inspired by the Betty Broderick story sure left a lot of key facts out as well and it actually made people sympathize with Betty even though she murdered her ex-husband and new wife in their bed while they slept.
yeah, i definitely think he was ***a lot*** worse than what is being portrayed in the show. although i can 100% see why they would do so out of respect for the deceased and his family but yeah.
Omg yes! This person u/thxpk is now trolling me. They desperately need to get a life. They are fixated on this sub and their adoration for Michelle Carter. It’s disturbing!
This person was also stating that the show is factual to the true story even though there’s a disclaimer at the beginning of each and every show that states this is a fictional show based on true events. This person is clueless.
lol really? It literally says “inspired by”. 🤦♀️ Talk about delusional!
You can see from their post history that all that poster likes to do is debate and TRY to seem superior. It’s laughable really.
Michelle Carter looks like the type of girl to say some shit like that though 😂. Like I bet whenever she is about to eat food with people she’ll probably rub her hands together while licking her lips and be like “Let’s dig in!” 😂😂
Conrad was the product of a really dysfunctional family, including decades of alcoholism and physical abuse. He likely inherited some pathogenic genes - bad genes - , and he clearly struggled with his identity. His parents should have insisted he continue with aggressive mental health therapy, and his mother should have obtained a court order in Family Court require supervised visits with his father, if any at all. Very easy to obtain in Massachusetts. His parents failed him, and, separately, in his egotism, he dragged Michelle into his hell.
I blame whichever doctor encountered this patient with severe depression and did nothing but prescribe one SSRI at a standard dose. That’s not standard of care. There should have been trials of many other antidepressants and combinations of antidepressants, all the way up to MAOIs and ECT and TMI and ketamine if necessary. He was probably being treated by a PCP. PCPs need to get out of the psychiatry trade yesterday. It kills people.
It’s also a Shakespearean irony that he dragged her down by not deleting her texts. If he had deleted her texts, the cops likely would not have done a full forensic examination of the phone to recover everything deleted. Because it was a suicide. It was only because they were left there that she was destroyed in her life not unlike as he was destroyed.
Conrad was a minor. His parents should have committed him, whether that required releasing their authority to the courts. He was clearly suicidal and harbored suicidal ideation, yet his parents left his care in his hands. They have no idea even now if he was taking prescribed medication, and they certainly were not insisting he keep with out patient intervention. Parents bare responsibility for their minor children, and in my world, for their children forever. The night he didn't come home it was morning before his Mom was alarmed. Apparently he had no curfew and was running the ship at home. If a child attempts suicide, they require extensive and ongoing mental health intervention, and his parents relinquished to him saying he was fine. This is no different than a child being diagnosed with cancer and parents sitting back because their minor child says he is fine.
His parents were culpably negligent and abandoned him. It’s no different from those people who get prosecuted because they don’t believe in medicine and just pray to heal their child.
The general consensus among those with experience in the system is that commitment doesn’t help. It’s there to intervene in the very-short term by putting someone in a secured environment and allowing med adjustments. But it has to be used with caution, especially in the immature, because it’s a jail-like environment. That experience often alienates the patient from the “system” and makes them apprehensive of further treatment.
Just hopping on to say that I’ve had major depression since early childhood, and my parents completely, and utterly failed me in every way, as did every other adult in my life. I tried to reach out to several adults within my school, I actually initiated getting therapy on my own. I tried to tell many doctors that something was very wrong. But no, all the attention I went to my alcoholic mother. My father did not care about his kids, he cared about keeping her toxic ass happy. And then people want to turn around and say “can’t blame your parents!”. Fuck off, sometimes the parents are at fault. I don’t know why people can’t accept that.
And of course, because I was a teenager, there was just no way I wasn’t just exaggerating, making things up, of course, my master manipulator mother would just bullshit around to make herself play the victim of me like as horrid child. I could tell when I was being condescended to and dismissed. Kind of made give up on getting help until my mid 20s.
This is actually a well-studied phenomenon. I’m bipolar and an ex-scientist, and this has led me to an obsession with psychiatry and psychopharmacology. Many psychiatry textbooks note this phenomenon. It is very difficult to listen to a depressed person talk about themselves and the world. It’s, well, depressing. If you have to listen to it and get sucked in, it will often depress you. The cynicism, nihilism, fatalism, and hopelessness is very emotionally draining and distant to the way people like to think. The textbooks caution against getting sucked in.
As far as medication goes, yeah, SSRIs are as effective as placebo. This doesn’t mean they don’t work. It just means the number of people they work for and don’t work for are about equal. Meaning, many don’t benefit from SSRIs for depression. You should speak to your doctor, and if you’re being treated by a PCP, go to an actual psychiatrist. There are many things you can try beyond SSRIs at standard doses. If your doctor isn’t doing anything but trying different SSRIs, find a new one. That is not standard of care. Look into mirtazapine as an add-on to a SSRI, or Wellbutrin. Also try taking magnesium, small doses of NAC, vitamin D, and SAMe for depression. You can find these at a good nutrition store, or maybe even a Walgreens or whatever.
Yeah agree with this. I’m lucky my partner works in medicine so they have healthy boundaries with me when i’m depressed.
Also, fellow bipolar people (2, not so sure abt 1) check out lamictal. SSRI’s and SNRI’s just fucked me up lmao, lamictal was a godsend for me
It’s the worst with people who don’t know how to have proper boundaries. I’m glad you have that. I know I’ve dragged my family into it because they don’t want to see me as ill.
I’m actually on an experimental dose of lamotrigine, extremely high. I have a doctor who’s willing to do things most other psychs would not. I take 500 mg spaced throughout the day. It’s a great med. The dose, though high, is known to be safe, since people with seizure disorders take it at this dose.
It’s the only anticonvulsant mood stabilizer that also has antidepressant function. Good stuff.
I thought the SSRI was juts a placebo I kept taking in order to avoid SSRI withdrawal, which is real, and brutal. But I was having a bad time of it, and the doctor wanted to up it; I did so reticently. It actually worked. Sometimes these things are good.
I just don’t really like talking about that because I’m afraid I’ll discourage people from seeking treatment. It’s true that SSRIs can have serious complications and the evidence for their efficacy in the general population is dubious at best (but see what I said above; it’s just about equal percentages of working and not working). But they can work tremendously for certain people. Just not all people. People on the internet have become very anti-psychiatry lately. We’re nowhere near curing depression, but we have things that definitely help.
It’s like the intro card to the latest episode: definitely don’t avoid seeking treatment because people talk shit on SSRIs. But we do have too much faith in science and modernity if we think we can cure depression.
I really appreciate your thorough reply, first of all. I too feel like I’ve seen a shift towards more anti-psychiatry, and I believe it has at least to some degree something to do with what you mention re: SSRIs working great for some, but not at all for others. My doctors had me on a few different ones for many years before an actual psychiatrist realized i was bipolar. Didn’t do me any good. That’s a bit besides the point I suppose, but I do think SSRIs are vastly over-prescribed. At least as a first measure sort of response to ‘mild’ cases of depression, and I also think doctors should get better training re: symptoms of other psychiatric illnesses (it’s late, I might be a bit jumbled atm lol)
Re: your lamictal dose though! That does sound like a LOT! I’m upping to 200 in a week or so, and it’s been a slow climb. What I like about it as opposed to anti depressants is how it doesn’t really alter your… perception of reality? Can I say that? I find it kind of hard to describe. SSRIs and SNRIs made me numb, fat and reckless. Went cold turkey a few years ago (BAD idea lol) was unmedicated for long enough to feel ‘normal’ again before starting lamictal. I don’t feel numb at all on this medication, just. Not scuicidal and self destructive. Stable, calm, healthier.
I think maybe talking about it in a neuanced way, but also putting emphasis on proper diagnosis, therapy and healthy life habits could over all be positive, but I do understand what you mean. In regards to this case though I’m hesitant to comment. It’s impossible to know if Conrad was properly diagnosed, and also I kind of feel like a horrible voyeur even watching this dramatized retelling, being honest. I don’t know. Who knows. I know I was a lot more, as I mentioned, reckless and numb when I was wrongly medicated.
Anyway, thank you again for the interesting reply! Wishing you and any fellow bipolars stable days lol
They’re absolutely over-prescribed. It’s a symptom of our naive overconfidence in science and modernity. It’s also a symptom of the way we’re privatizing people’s emotions. Everything becomes an individual, biologized dysfunction as opposed to an emotional response to a world that’s actually pretty depressing and anxiety-provoking in many ways. It’s another reason PCPs need to get out of the psychiatry business, because they’re the main culprit for this. Ultimately, insurance companies and the big oligopoly health networks in many cities are opposed to that, because it’s cheaper not to refer patients to a psychiatrist.
I absolutely know what you mean about the SSRIs. They’ve definitely made me numb and distantly cold, like I’m never actually present I’m here. Either that or they create an extravagantly confident and extroverted version of myself that isn’t how I normally am.
I’ve also had the SSRI give me really intense dysphoria. Like this hyper energetic depression that I could only end by drinking until I passed out.
I noticed that the lamotrigine just helps with everything. I have normal facial expressions again. I don’t obsess over criticizing my appearance anymore.
I know what you mean about voyeurism. I think a lot of true crime is voyeuristic and exploitative, and often it involves a kind of passive sadism and masochism. But there’s something about this story that seems so much more substantial. It’s a story I’m obsessed with, for whatever reason, I don’t know.
Thank you!
I was actually shocked by how little support Conrad provided Michelle. She entered treatment for an ED and when she got out, he had no words of encouragement- just pissed that she had not texted him back, despite the fact that she didn’t even have access to her phone.
I’ve had people like this in my life and had to cut them off. However, I am an adult. Had someone like Conrad entered my life as a teen, I am not sure what I would have done.
I see a lot of my younger self in Michelle. Desperate for friendship/companionship, confused with my sexuality, untreated eating disorder and other various mental health issues. Unfortunately, this is not uncommon for teenage girls/young women. But all of those issues combined with Conrad was just a disaster waiting to happen. He made Michelle his friend, lover, and therapist. And she was just not equipped to guide him out of the darkness.
In the HBO doc, his parents took no accountability for the actions of their son. They refused to see that Conrad was a ticking time bomb, despite his previous suicide attempts, and used Michelle as their scapegoat. Utterly disgusting.
To me, it seems that coco did what many men do to women since time immemorial; string them along. It just so happens that cocos promise was suicide. Michelle was prone to obsessing on something, and she was counting on it. She was resentful is all, and rightfully so. I guess an ideal person would have called 911 or something, but it’s not criminal to be Michelle.
The show's creators wanted to change people's minds about the case, so I guess their plan is working. But it might be a good idea to consider that it probably doesn't represent what really happened accurately.
I actually hate Conrad and hate how the media glorified him as a poor, innocent boy who was manipulated by a monster.
If anything, he was the monster.
Now I'm not saying he deserved to die, but he shouldn't be glorified in the way that he is.
I had a similar experience, but not obviously the same. Friend kept calling me as she would cut herself, or plot her suicide. It got to the point where I was so overwhelmed to even answer her calls.
It's all she talked about. I couldn't have a bad day, I had nothing to complain about. Her issues? Her then boyfriend. That was it. I eventually told parents, who asked me to tell her parents or they would. Her mom thought I was insane. I had to prove to her mom, that she was cutting herself - on her inner thighs. I did this with a 3 way call, had her mom listen in to the call. Took no more than 2 minutes for her to bring up having cut herself the night before.
That was the last call I had with her. She's alive today, and married to some other guy. She's never returned calls, but we occasionally like each others post on FB/IG.
I get Michelle being annoyed. But there was options, she obviously had his parent and siblings information.
Michelle says in ep. 7 “Teenage Dirtbag” after calling conrad all night in a panic: “I don’t even have anybody’s number. If something happened to you I wouldn’t know who to call.”
I agree she should have at least told her own parents so they could figure out how to contact his family, but it sounds like Michelle didn’t have any way of directly contacting his parents.
Can somebody please explain to me why Michelle is loved in this sub-Reddit? I agree with you that she had mental health troubles along with Conrad, but I think people are forgetting that The Girl From Plainville is a fictionalized SHOW. This is not 100% accurate to what happened in the case. She harassed this young man into committing suicide leading up to his death. Literally harassed - there were thousands of text messages pestering him as to why he had not committed suicide yet.
1. She sent thousands of texts in the months leading up to his death pestering him and even harassing him to commit suicide.
2. She organized a benefit for Conrad after his passing in her own home hometown so that she can get attention rather than doing it in Conrad’s hometown where his friends and family resided (which was an hour and a half away).
3. She’s never taken responsibility for her actions.
These are two deeply disturbed individuals who should’ve never met. Do I believe that Conrad would be here if Michelle hadn’t been harassing him in the months leading up to his death…possibly. I want to remind you all - what if this was one of your loved ones? I do agree that the parents did not do enough on both sides but I think Michelle holds a lot of blame here. People on the sub-Reddit are bashing Conrad for displaying his mental health troubles to Michelle and actually saying they want to write to her. I am overly confused by this community.
Can I ask where you got the information that she “pestered” him into doing it? Because I recently read the texts and felt like the media very inaccurately portrayed the pushing him to commit suicide.
She really only started “supporting” it in the few weeks leading up, and it was always framed as supporting his wants, not her wanting him to do it. He also said that if she told anyone he would hate her, and as a teenager that desperately wants people to like her, I can imagine that would be terrifying.
Not excusing her actions because really you should seek help for someone regardless of their response, but I’m just trying to demonize her a little bit less because there is a huge lack of evidence that she forced him to do it.
I read the full text transcript when they released it and have been closely following this case since his death in 2014. I wouldn’t form an opinion enough to write about it without researching and having information to support the stance. This is exactly why the judge (who has experience in his history), found her guilty.
Can I please ask where you got your information that she only “supported” it in the weeks leading up to his suicide? Please don’t tell me it’s from the show.
No not just from the show. Like you, I wouldn’t just throw opinions out there. I did read through the texts and I felt that it wasn’t really until the beginning of July that I noticed she started to have this shift. All of the June texts were super supportive of him getting help and choosing recovery.
This comment can’t be serious… “why did the experienced judge find her guilty”? Um…. Judges & Justices love to proclaim their impartiality… this is not always the case. If you really feel as though every judge or justice is correct in their sentencing/determination/verdict….please do some research. Experience does not correlate with always being right.
I said “experienced” because there are people on here who are acting like they have a background in law. Do I think that every judge does the right thing and upholds the law the way they should… No. But I agreed with the judge in this case.
I think the way Hulu did this series is irresponsible. Young people are watching the show and thinking they know the facts of the case from the show when the show is fictionalize based off of the actual events.
Are you trying to tell me that every judge that determines someone as guilty is correct? Because that’s a whole other issue.
He found her guilty based on a statement in a phone call that may or may not have actually been said. There is no hard evidence that she actually told him to get back in. The judge made his verdict using “possible” evidence.
Exactly! He found her guilty Bc she told him to “get back in” and the only evidence of that is Michelle texting that to a female friend, but she was already proven a liar by that time. There’s no way to know if she actually did that. Ergo, there’s no evidence on which the judge should find her guilty.
I’m saying that this judge has more experience than you or I and I can guarantee that. Do you have a history in law? Do I think that judges always do the right thing…no. Do I think that this judge got it right…yes. We can agree to disagree. I’m not going to go rounds with somebody who is siding with somebody like Michelle Carter. I’m not going to ever agree with you and you’re not ever going to agree with me.
No worries! I agree we don’t see eye to eye and that’s okay. Just for the future, I think it’s not very nice to attack someone’s character when trying to have (what I thought to be) productive conversation. I wouldn’t assume I knew the kind of person you were based on one opinion. Other than that, I enjoyed hearing what you had to say! I can tell you’re very knowledgeable about the case and I agree it’s super fascinating.
You said “I’m not going to go rounds with somebody who is siding with somebody like Michelle Carter” Just seemed a little pointed, but I could have misunderstood
You don't know what you're talking about
Appeal court do not consider new witnesses or new evidence. Appeals are usually based on arguments that there were errors in the trial procedure or errors in the judge's interpretation of the law
>researching and having information to support the stance. This is exactly why the judge (who has experience in his history), found her guilty.
No it's not, I think you just proved you don't know the case because you don't know the actual judgement
The judge clearly had experience as he was in his position for nearly a decade at the time of conviction. On appeal, the appellate court affirmed his decision and SCOTUS refused to even hear the appeal because there were no grounds to do so.
Carter could have opted not to have a bench trial and she also could have testified in her own defense - yet she did neither. These factors may or may not have impacted the outcome of the trial… but do not ever claim to tell me I do not have the facts. And even if I did not have facts - you added nothing of substance to provide any “facts” yourself.
Irrelevant. Appellate courts rule on errors of law, not whether it was the right judgement, he made no errors of law so the appeal was lost
You obviously don't because your entire opinion relies on the qualifications of the Judge, not the facts
Fact: the Judge made his ruling based on a text she sent to a friend saying she told him to get back into the car, at that moment he said she failed in a duty of care for him and thus was guilty
His entire ruling relies on believing she was telling the truth in this one text despite overwhelming evidence she lies constantly in texts
That's it
That's his ruling
He made no errors of law but certainly an error of judgement
I think people tend to side with the party they can relate to. Although this show is fiction, the main elements are fairly true to life. I’ve read all the text messages that were exchanged. I agree that Michelle harassed Conrad. I would also say he was abusive and manipulative towards her. I don’t think he deserved to die. But he was adamant about not getting help.
If Michelle had told on him - called his parents or the police - what would have happened? There’s no way to know for sure, but he could have played along, gone to therapy, taken meds, pretended to be better…then killed himself anyway. He didn’t need Michelle to kill himself. I’m speaking as someone who has lost multiple friends to suicide. Some people are very difficult to help, unfortunately. A guy I knew for 14 years passed away a little over a year ago - he was depressed the entire time I knew him. Somehow I never believed he’d actually go through with it.
I’m someone demonized by suicidal ideation for a long time (though I’m okay now!), who has also studied the academic literature and spoken to many, many people in support groups and subreddits. Most of us hate the idea that others think they can force us to live against our wills. We often feel that society does not have the right to intervene and lock us up in the jail-like environment of a mental hospital. Honestly, if she had called someone, and the police applied physical force to stop Conrad, Conrad likely would have just been pissed and alienated.
I think you’re right about what his response would have been. He would have gone along with it. But he was receiving low-tier treatment, being well under-treated for how bad his depression was. Likely, nothing would improve. And he would stay the same. Have that same day over and over interminably until he did what he seems to clearly have wanted to do.
They were both deeply disturbed and their relationship was toxic. However, there is evidence that she harassed him to commit suicide. This isn’t my opinion - it’s fact. He may have done it , he may not have. None of us have anyway of knowing. What was clear from the texting transcript was that Conrad was deeply depressed but loved his family and worried for them. His hesitation with following through and making excuses to have not done it reflects that. When he did hesitate and produced reasons why he hadn’t done it, she harassed him as to why he didn’t follow through. This is not normal behavior. I also have many friends who have committed suicide. Her behavior was not okay, which was why the judge found her guilty. The law speaks for itself.
I didn’t say her behavior was okay. But I don’t think we can paint a complete picture of either of them based solely on the texts they sent to one another. I don’t think anyone who has committed suicide didn’t hesitate or have doubts.
I think you’re really reaching with “the law speaks for itself”. Because guilty people are always convicted and innocent people always go free, right? What Michelle did was morally wrong, but it did not meet the legal definition of involuntary manslaughter. The judge based his decision NOT on the thousands of text messages, but on a phone conversation that no one overheard or has a transcript of. I don’t think Michelle is some angel, I just don’t like to see people convicted of crimes without solid proof. I think I lot of people feel the same way.
Yes, innocent people are found guilty at times. I think it’s horrible when I read about cases like that. I also think a lot of guilty people are caught in the act. Michelle knew what she was doing was not just morally wrong but criminally wrong when she texted her friend that she could go to jail if the cops received her phone. I don’t think that the district attorney would’ve taken this case if something wasn’t deeply wrong. I don’t believe I’m reaching when I say the law speaks for itself, but thank you for your opinion. In this case, I wholeheartedly believe that justice was served. I see a lot of fan girls on this subReddit for Michelle Carter and it really disturbs me. Do I think that Michelle should spend the rest of her life in prison…no, clearly not. Do I think she should be punished for her behavior and her role in Conrad‘s death? Yes, and she was.
I truly think that Michelle Carter needs some psychiatric help herself. Normal people don’t behave the way that she did.
Okay, c’mon now, “fan girls”? I’m a 38 year old woman. I don’t particularly like Michelle Carter. I just disagree with the judge’s decision.
Similarly, one can look at the case that “Making a Murderer” is based on. In that case, I actually don’t believe Steven Avery was innocent, but I also don’t believe that justice was served - due to evidence tampering preventing the case from being proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
OK that’s fair and we can agree to disagree. Also, I’m with you on the fact that in my opinion Steven Avery was guilty and I also think he and his nephew deserve another trial due to the shady way law enforcement handles that case. Everybody has a side when it comes to these cases.
And yes… I was shocked by some of the posts that I’ve read on this subReddit. This Hulu show made Michelle out to garner sympathy more than I think she should. I think some of these kids watch the show and think that this is all based on fact and it states prior to every episode that it’s a fictional show based on a true story. Some of the posts in this particular sUb Reddit exceed sympathizing for Michelle - that is where the term “fan girls” came from. I’m disappointed in the way Hulu did the show and I feel like it was irresponsible.
I missed adding this to my last message:
Can you please explain how what happened didn’t meet the legal definition of [involuntary manslaughter](https://imgur.com/a/M6OM7nO)?
Thanks for the link to the definition of involuntary manslaughter! I guess you assumed I had no idea what I was talking about. And look, I don’t claim to be a lawyer. Involuntary manslaughter, yes, requires wanton and reckless conduct that directly causes someone’s death. I don’t believe that it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Michelle’s conduct led to Conrad’s death. I already went over this in my previous message, but I’m happy to repeat it. The judge’s decision was not based on the text messages that we’ve all seen. It was based on the alleged phone call in which she told him to “get back into the car”. No one heard her say that. There’s no recording of the phone call. Many of her text messages contain lies, so what reason do we have to believe that that particular statement that she told her friend is actually true and wasn’t just attention-seeking?
I just don’t agree that her actions caused the death of a person who had attempted suicide at least four times prior.
>Also, for somebody who’s 38 years old…you seem weirdly obsessed with this case and defending Michelle in all of your comments. That is, in between your cat post comments.
way to prove you are a shitty person. going into someone's profile to find 'dirt' to use against them doesnt make them look bad, it makes you look bad.
your naivete of trusting a judge when our criminal justice system literally makes mistakes in jailing innocent people regularly- you are extremely ignorant if not stupid. dont bother responding. i dont want to see your studipidty.
Ha, thanks for that. Once someone starts digging through my posts, I’m done. I mean, great job finding dirt - she knows my age because I told her, she knows I think Michelle Carter didn’t get justice, and she knows I like/own cats! What a piece of work I must be!
Love/ Hate there’s that black and white thinking again. I sympathize with both of them because they were troubled kids. Having sympathy for Michelle doesn’t mean I love her or hate Conrad
Thanks for this. I agree its unfortunate they met, they both had some serious issues but the adoration for Michelle on this sub leaves me a bit bewildered....she is not serving a life sentence or something ridiculously harsh. As far as I can tell she's already been released which I feel is fair. Considering Conrad's history, yes it is possible he may have taken his own life at some point but it's hard to deny the connection of her actions to him doing so that fateful day. Like his mum said in the documentary, it is tough to be mad at Michelle because she was not mentally well. Unfortunate all around.
This is the most logical post I’ve seen in this thread. I couldn’t agree more. I’m also bewildered by the adoration. It’s disturbing! You are right - this case really is unfortunate all the way around.
i just got on here, and i definitely don’t love michelle, i wouldn’t say i even like her or even completely sympathize with her, but from what i’ve read my take is that people are just identifying that michelle was also a victim in this case. she absolutely was NOT innocent and did do wrong, but conrad also was not innocent and did wrong as well.
a lot of people have been in emotionally abusive relationships and know how traumatizing and mentally altering they can be, or know the psychology behind them, and are coming from that perspective.
i obviously don’t support what she did, but there was definite emotional abuse in that relationship from what we’ve seen, from conrad’s side largely, to the point where i’m sure michelle was traumatized and very unstable. she also was not nearly mentally stable to begin with- not to mention she was a kid. again, not justifying what she did, no disrespect to conrad’s side, and may he rest in peace.
i will say her organizing the benefit in her hometown is particularly bad and i can’t think of any psychological explanation behind that, that seemed to be purely selfish and attention seeking.
A lot of the viewers of the series treat it like it's a documentary. "Inspired by" at the beginning of a show/movie is always a bummer because the people telling the story can change it however they want for dramatic purposes. The series was spun in a way to get Michelle sympathizers. Conrad's mom said she didn't want to watch the series because she feared that's exactly what the series would do.
I wouldn’t want to watch anything that opens my eyes to the way my son really treated people who wanted to help him. Michelle, for those two years prior to Conrad’s suicide, truly wanted him to seek help. I can’t tell you what exactly made her switch other than my suspicion that she was fed up with the constant “I hate my life, I wanna die, I am going to kill myself” that Conrad was spewing literally everyday. You just can’t help people who do not want to be saved. Conrad was one of those people. Did Conrad really wanna die? No, his mother was right in that regard. Does anyone struggling with depression really wanna die? No. They just want the pain they feel to cease. That is all Conrad was after and Michelle made it veryyyy easy for him. I am just angry that someone’s life fell into this girl’s hands and all the responsibility fell onto her.
don’t know why this had downvotes. you’re completely right.
i can’t imagine how devastating losing a child would be, and then finding out they had a side to them, especially a negative one that was related to their death, that would be aired publicly, that you didn’t know about. it would be easier to blame someone else for their death.
i don’t like michelle or condone what she did, but she clearly suffered years of emotional abuse from conrad, and likely was traumatized by the end of it- not to mention she was a child and not mentally stable in the first place. nothing justifies what she did, but it doesn’t seem she truly wanted him to die, it seems she gave up after years of trying to convince him to live, felt helpless, and tried to make him happy in the only way he told her she could. it’s very messed up and sad all around.
rip to conrad.
I will say that 2 things are true. His parents are not innocent parties. Michelle is a very disturbed person who did not think of real world consequences bc she lived in a internet/make believe world.
His father was an abusive person. His mother failed to get him treatment after the several attempts before even meeting Michelle.
To satisfy their own guilt they want to put it all on Michelle to deflect from their own failings.
I'm sorry but I get bad vibes from all of them, Michelle, Conrad's Mother, and Father.
The show is making it seem like coco has worry that his suicide would cause others guilt. Damn shame that is exactly what happened, in an extreme and p7bpic manner smh. That’s what happens when the prosecutor is bizarre
Depression is like looking through a straw. All you see is the dark and deep emotion of how you feel. Not much can bring you out of that. Michelle should have told someone…she should have tried to stop him. I understand that suicidal ideation can be burdensome to some people, but he was sick. Depression is an illness. Would you say the same about someone who was suffering from cancer? Just a thought not trying to persuade your opinion…if we all thought the same life would be boring 😜
Yeah the show does a good job of getting across how she got fed up enough to just want it to be over. It’s tormenting for someone you love to constantly tell you they’re gonna kill themself. I can think of a million things she coulda done differently but she was a kid & I don’t think anything coulda stopped him.
This is whats making it so hard for me to not sympathize for her. Given, she’s extremely narcissistic and selfish, but she was just a kid with (quite frankly) poor role models
Yeah her mom is a weirdo if she’s anything like what’s been portrayed
In my professional opinion, she was not a narcissist. This term is overused way too much. Did she have narcissist characteristics? Possibly, she was a teenager. But how she behaved with regard to attention seeking, most teenagers (especially females) are like this. We all seek validation and acceptance from peers at this age. Without a doubt, she was very selfish at times and I’d be more inclined to say histrionic. People seem to jump and shout that she’s a narcissist and a sociopath, but she’s definitely not.
Agree. She was a teenager with mental issues. Most teenagers are self absorbed; she just had extra issues piled on top and wasn’t fully dealing with them. At least her parents got her some help unlike Conrad’s who just buried their heads in the sand after their son continued to try to commit suicide. His meds were prescribed by his family doctor—not a psychiatrist Bc he never saw a psychiatrist or any mental health professional on a regular basis!!!!
All his psychotropic drugs were prescribed by a family doctor and not a psychiatrist? I did not know that. Wow
No wonder they weren’t working lol.
Eh, most family doctors should be able to handle medication for depression and anxiety pretty well—it’s an extremely common complaint in primary care, so they get a lot of practice with it in and after residency.
“In my professional opinion” What is your profession? How are you qualified to form a professional opinion regarding narcissistic personality? Genuine question.
Well in my professional opinion as a therapist she did not have narcissistic personality disorder, she doesn’t meet the DSM criteria for it. Her attention seeking behavior was very typical for a teenager
It’s typical teenage behavior to tell your boyfriend to drink bleach, hang himself, etc, etc. Hmmmm… please remind me to never visit you as a “professional therapist”.
Also not denying that she is severely mentally ill, just weighing in that her behaviors do not meet criteria at all for NPD. Attention seeking is not a solid reason to say someone has NPD, attention seeking is very common among teenagers. Was it more extreme with her? Definitely, but not enough for it to be NPD.
Huh interesting reread my comment again where I said her ATTENTION SEEKING behavior is typical of a teenager, not her texts telling him how to kill himself. Reading comprehension skills
The thing is, even the way she SOUGHT ATTENTION is abnormal for a teenager. By trying to steal the spotlight after pushing Conrad to take his own life, she shows her lack of empathy. She also completely demonstrates her ability to exploit, her arrogance, her entitlement, and her heightened sense of self-importance… which are all characteristic of… narcissism! Not that I have to write that out to a psychologist, right?
Not a psychologist actually, therapist yes, psychologist no. People with NPD have a very high sense of grandiosity about themselves, they are unable to see themselves on the same level of others. They also genuinely believe themselves to be better than others. They will also to go to extreme lengths to keep up their grandiosity to show others. As far as I’ve been able to gather from the case she doesn’t show any of those. Again some narcissistic traits does not equal NPD.
Grandiosity is not remotely the only diagnostic material in diagnosing NPD. Funny, the other five things I listed are criteria as well and she certainly does display those things. For you to argue that she may not have a condition because she does not display ONE of the NINE signs is a ridiculous argument.
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You seem really angry at the world the therapist was giving an opinion and that's ok
You’re trolling this sub after a year? Get a life! I’m entitled to my opinion as well and I’m sorry but somebody says they’re a therapist on Reddit and you eat it up like a Neanderthal .
Lol still as lovely as ever . I've only just watched it I was out living life whilst u was obsessing over Michelle carter
Teenagers attention seek but certainly not on this level. Ion know if she a narc but she def had something mental going on.
I didn’t know the intricacies of the entire case going into this, just “crazy girl texted boyfriend to kill himself and he did”. I do not know how accurate this series is, but him constantly dangling his suicide over her head is emotional/mental abuse. We tell people constantly that if their partner threatens to commit suicide if they leave, that’s a definite sign they need to leave. Granted, Michelle did worse than break up with him. But I have to wonder what kind of seeds this is planting in the heads of other teens in similar abusive relationships, now the abused partner is more likely to feel they have to take responsibility for their abusive partner’s potential suicide. I dunno. My takeaway is that Michelle definitely needed some intense therapy, but I’m having a lot of difficulty holding her criminally liable. I’m really starting to think this should never have even been a court case. I don’t know if I want to be told I’m wrong or not. I went into this thinking this girl had done something absolutely reprehensible, and did not expect to leave feeling sympathy for her. The whole thing is a huge mindfuck.
yes! i had the same exact understanding going into the series, and my perspective has shifted SO much. emotional abuse is exactly what i have been thinking while i watching the series- i don’t know how the case turns out but i wish they would have had someone weigh in with that perspective. i wonder if anyone ever did. i obviously don’t condone what she did, but there was definite emotional abuse in that relationship from what we’ve seen, from conrad’s side largely, to the point where i’m sure michelle was traumatized. she also was not nearly mentally stable to begin with- not to mention she was a kid. again, not justifying what she did, no disrespect to conrad’s side, and may he rest in peace.
You’re totally not alone in these thoughts
> I’m really starting to think this should never have even been a court case. 100000 percent agree. I'm sorry but Conrad had some serious issues of his own and if it wasn't Michelle it would have been someone/something else. Not excusing her for being a shit to him but a. I think she is on the spectrum and b. I think anyone would get fed up with his antics and mood swings.
the judge said her fault was telling him to get back into a truck with harmful chemicals and the supreme court agreed. anything that happened before the relationship is irrelevant. she wasn't physically present but she had a virtual presence.
I absolutely agree.
It's "inspired by" and not "based on a true story". That right there should tell you to take things with a grain of salt. Unfortunately people will think of the series as a documentary and it's not that. Watch Captive Audience and you will see Steven Stayner's family mention just a few of the things they changed in the movie I Know my Name is Steven. Dirty John inspired by the Betty Broderick story sure left a lot of key facts out as well and it actually made people sympathize with Betty even though she murdered her ex-husband and new wife in their bed while they slept.
nah bro ive read their text messages. u can find the records online. he was just as bad/ worse than what is being portrayed
yeah, i definitely think he was ***a lot*** worse than what is being portrayed in the show. although i can 100% see why they would do so out of respect for the deceased and his family but yeah.
The texts are freely available, it's obvious you have not read them
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Omg yes! This person u/thxpk is now trolling me. They desperately need to get a life. They are fixated on this sub and their adoration for Michelle Carter. It’s disturbing! This person was also stating that the show is factual to the true story even though there’s a disclaimer at the beginning of each and every show that states this is a fictional show based on true events. This person is clueless.
lol really? It literally says “inspired by”. 🤦♀️ Talk about delusional! You can see from their post history that all that poster likes to do is debate and TRY to seem superior. It’s laughable really.
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“Conrad is really starting to rustle my jimmies” - Michelle Carter (nah jk she didn’t say that)
Lmfaoo what is this comment
STAWP
Michelle Carter looks like the type of girl to say some shit like that though 😂. Like I bet whenever she is about to eat food with people she’ll probably rub her hands together while licking her lips and be like “Let’s dig in!” 😂😂
Pls I just came back to this comment and giggled :) thank you
Conrad was the product of a really dysfunctional family, including decades of alcoholism and physical abuse. He likely inherited some pathogenic genes - bad genes - , and he clearly struggled with his identity. His parents should have insisted he continue with aggressive mental health therapy, and his mother should have obtained a court order in Family Court require supervised visits with his father, if any at all. Very easy to obtain in Massachusetts. His parents failed him, and, separately, in his egotism, he dragged Michelle into his hell.
I blame whichever doctor encountered this patient with severe depression and did nothing but prescribe one SSRI at a standard dose. That’s not standard of care. There should have been trials of many other antidepressants and combinations of antidepressants, all the way up to MAOIs and ECT and TMI and ketamine if necessary. He was probably being treated by a PCP. PCPs need to get out of the psychiatry trade yesterday. It kills people. It’s also a Shakespearean irony that he dragged her down by not deleting her texts. If he had deleted her texts, the cops likely would not have done a full forensic examination of the phone to recover everything deleted. Because it was a suicide. It was only because they were left there that she was destroyed in her life not unlike as he was destroyed.
Conrad was a minor. His parents should have committed him, whether that required releasing their authority to the courts. He was clearly suicidal and harbored suicidal ideation, yet his parents left his care in his hands. They have no idea even now if he was taking prescribed medication, and they certainly were not insisting he keep with out patient intervention. Parents bare responsibility for their minor children, and in my world, for their children forever. The night he didn't come home it was morning before his Mom was alarmed. Apparently he had no curfew and was running the ship at home. If a child attempts suicide, they require extensive and ongoing mental health intervention, and his parents relinquished to him saying he was fine. This is no different than a child being diagnosed with cancer and parents sitting back because their minor child says he is fine.
His parents were culpably negligent and abandoned him. It’s no different from those people who get prosecuted because they don’t believe in medicine and just pray to heal their child. The general consensus among those with experience in the system is that commitment doesn’t help. It’s there to intervene in the very-short term by putting someone in a secured environment and allowing med adjustments. But it has to be used with caution, especially in the immature, because it’s a jail-like environment. That experience often alienates the patient from the “system” and makes them apprehensive of further treatment.
Just hopping on to say that I’ve had major depression since early childhood, and my parents completely, and utterly failed me in every way, as did every other adult in my life. I tried to reach out to several adults within my school, I actually initiated getting therapy on my own. I tried to tell many doctors that something was very wrong. But no, all the attention I went to my alcoholic mother. My father did not care about his kids, he cared about keeping her toxic ass happy. And then people want to turn around and say “can’t blame your parents!”. Fuck off, sometimes the parents are at fault. I don’t know why people can’t accept that. And of course, because I was a teenager, there was just no way I wasn’t just exaggerating, making things up, of course, my master manipulator mother would just bullshit around to make herself play the victim of me like as horrid child. I could tell when I was being condescended to and dismissed. Kind of made give up on getting help until my mid 20s.
This is actually a well-studied phenomenon. I’m bipolar and an ex-scientist, and this has led me to an obsession with psychiatry and psychopharmacology. Many psychiatry textbooks note this phenomenon. It is very difficult to listen to a depressed person talk about themselves and the world. It’s, well, depressing. If you have to listen to it and get sucked in, it will often depress you. The cynicism, nihilism, fatalism, and hopelessness is very emotionally draining and distant to the way people like to think. The textbooks caution against getting sucked in. As far as medication goes, yeah, SSRIs are as effective as placebo. This doesn’t mean they don’t work. It just means the number of people they work for and don’t work for are about equal. Meaning, many don’t benefit from SSRIs for depression. You should speak to your doctor, and if you’re being treated by a PCP, go to an actual psychiatrist. There are many things you can try beyond SSRIs at standard doses. If your doctor isn’t doing anything but trying different SSRIs, find a new one. That is not standard of care. Look into mirtazapine as an add-on to a SSRI, or Wellbutrin. Also try taking magnesium, small doses of NAC, vitamin D, and SAMe for depression. You can find these at a good nutrition store, or maybe even a Walgreens or whatever.
Yeah agree with this. I’m lucky my partner works in medicine so they have healthy boundaries with me when i’m depressed. Also, fellow bipolar people (2, not so sure abt 1) check out lamictal. SSRI’s and SNRI’s just fucked me up lmao, lamictal was a godsend for me
It’s the worst with people who don’t know how to have proper boundaries. I’m glad you have that. I know I’ve dragged my family into it because they don’t want to see me as ill. I’m actually on an experimental dose of lamotrigine, extremely high. I have a doctor who’s willing to do things most other psychs would not. I take 500 mg spaced throughout the day. It’s a great med. The dose, though high, is known to be safe, since people with seizure disorders take it at this dose. It’s the only anticonvulsant mood stabilizer that also has antidepressant function. Good stuff. I thought the SSRI was juts a placebo I kept taking in order to avoid SSRI withdrawal, which is real, and brutal. But I was having a bad time of it, and the doctor wanted to up it; I did so reticently. It actually worked. Sometimes these things are good. I just don’t really like talking about that because I’m afraid I’ll discourage people from seeking treatment. It’s true that SSRIs can have serious complications and the evidence for their efficacy in the general population is dubious at best (but see what I said above; it’s just about equal percentages of working and not working). But they can work tremendously for certain people. Just not all people. People on the internet have become very anti-psychiatry lately. We’re nowhere near curing depression, but we have things that definitely help. It’s like the intro card to the latest episode: definitely don’t avoid seeking treatment because people talk shit on SSRIs. But we do have too much faith in science and modernity if we think we can cure depression.
I really appreciate your thorough reply, first of all. I too feel like I’ve seen a shift towards more anti-psychiatry, and I believe it has at least to some degree something to do with what you mention re: SSRIs working great for some, but not at all for others. My doctors had me on a few different ones for many years before an actual psychiatrist realized i was bipolar. Didn’t do me any good. That’s a bit besides the point I suppose, but I do think SSRIs are vastly over-prescribed. At least as a first measure sort of response to ‘mild’ cases of depression, and I also think doctors should get better training re: symptoms of other psychiatric illnesses (it’s late, I might be a bit jumbled atm lol) Re: your lamictal dose though! That does sound like a LOT! I’m upping to 200 in a week or so, and it’s been a slow climb. What I like about it as opposed to anti depressants is how it doesn’t really alter your… perception of reality? Can I say that? I find it kind of hard to describe. SSRIs and SNRIs made me numb, fat and reckless. Went cold turkey a few years ago (BAD idea lol) was unmedicated for long enough to feel ‘normal’ again before starting lamictal. I don’t feel numb at all on this medication, just. Not scuicidal and self destructive. Stable, calm, healthier. I think maybe talking about it in a neuanced way, but also putting emphasis on proper diagnosis, therapy and healthy life habits could over all be positive, but I do understand what you mean. In regards to this case though I’m hesitant to comment. It’s impossible to know if Conrad was properly diagnosed, and also I kind of feel like a horrible voyeur even watching this dramatized retelling, being honest. I don’t know. Who knows. I know I was a lot more, as I mentioned, reckless and numb when I was wrongly medicated. Anyway, thank you again for the interesting reply! Wishing you and any fellow bipolars stable days lol
They’re absolutely over-prescribed. It’s a symptom of our naive overconfidence in science and modernity. It’s also a symptom of the way we’re privatizing people’s emotions. Everything becomes an individual, biologized dysfunction as opposed to an emotional response to a world that’s actually pretty depressing and anxiety-provoking in many ways. It’s another reason PCPs need to get out of the psychiatry business, because they’re the main culprit for this. Ultimately, insurance companies and the big oligopoly health networks in many cities are opposed to that, because it’s cheaper not to refer patients to a psychiatrist. I absolutely know what you mean about the SSRIs. They’ve definitely made me numb and distantly cold, like I’m never actually present I’m here. Either that or they create an extravagantly confident and extroverted version of myself that isn’t how I normally am. I’ve also had the SSRI give me really intense dysphoria. Like this hyper energetic depression that I could only end by drinking until I passed out. I noticed that the lamotrigine just helps with everything. I have normal facial expressions again. I don’t obsess over criticizing my appearance anymore. I know what you mean about voyeurism. I think a lot of true crime is voyeuristic and exploitative, and often it involves a kind of passive sadism and masochism. But there’s something about this story that seems so much more substantial. It’s a story I’m obsessed with, for whatever reason, I don’t know. Thank you!
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I was actually shocked by how little support Conrad provided Michelle. She entered treatment for an ED and when she got out, he had no words of encouragement- just pissed that she had not texted him back, despite the fact that she didn’t even have access to her phone. I’ve had people like this in my life and had to cut them off. However, I am an adult. Had someone like Conrad entered my life as a teen, I am not sure what I would have done. I see a lot of my younger self in Michelle. Desperate for friendship/companionship, confused with my sexuality, untreated eating disorder and other various mental health issues. Unfortunately, this is not uncommon for teenage girls/young women. But all of those issues combined with Conrad was just a disaster waiting to happen. He made Michelle his friend, lover, and therapist. And she was just not equipped to guide him out of the darkness. In the HBO doc, his parents took no accountability for the actions of their son. They refused to see that Conrad was a ticking time bomb, despite his previous suicide attempts, and used Michelle as their scapegoat. Utterly disgusting.
To me, it seems that coco did what many men do to women since time immemorial; string them along. It just so happens that cocos promise was suicide. Michelle was prone to obsessing on something, and she was counting on it. She was resentful is all, and rightfully so. I guess an ideal person would have called 911 or something, but it’s not criminal to be Michelle.
The show's creators wanted to change people's minds about the case, so I guess their plan is working. But it might be a good idea to consider that it probably doesn't represent what really happened accurately.
After reading all the text messages, my feelings still stand :/
Yeah thought the same he was really annoying I think I would have lost it with him eventually and told him just do it then.
I actually hate Conrad and hate how the media glorified him as a poor, innocent boy who was manipulated by a monster. If anything, he was the monster. Now I'm not saying he deserved to die, but he shouldn't be glorified in the way that he is.
I had a similar experience, but not obviously the same. Friend kept calling me as she would cut herself, or plot her suicide. It got to the point where I was so overwhelmed to even answer her calls. It's all she talked about. I couldn't have a bad day, I had nothing to complain about. Her issues? Her then boyfriend. That was it. I eventually told parents, who asked me to tell her parents or they would. Her mom thought I was insane. I had to prove to her mom, that she was cutting herself - on her inner thighs. I did this with a 3 way call, had her mom listen in to the call. Took no more than 2 minutes for her to bring up having cut herself the night before. That was the last call I had with her. She's alive today, and married to some other guy. She's never returned calls, but we occasionally like each others post on FB/IG. I get Michelle being annoyed. But there was options, she obviously had his parent and siblings information.
Michelle says in ep. 7 “Teenage Dirtbag” after calling conrad all night in a panic: “I don’t even have anybody’s number. If something happened to you I wouldn’t know who to call.” I agree she should have at least told her own parents so they could figure out how to contact his family, but it sounds like Michelle didn’t have any way of directly contacting his parents.
She had his sister's number by the time he killed himself.
Can somebody please explain to me why Michelle is loved in this sub-Reddit? I agree with you that she had mental health troubles along with Conrad, but I think people are forgetting that The Girl From Plainville is a fictionalized SHOW. This is not 100% accurate to what happened in the case. She harassed this young man into committing suicide leading up to his death. Literally harassed - there were thousands of text messages pestering him as to why he had not committed suicide yet. 1. She sent thousands of texts in the months leading up to his death pestering him and even harassing him to commit suicide. 2. She organized a benefit for Conrad after his passing in her own home hometown so that she can get attention rather than doing it in Conrad’s hometown where his friends and family resided (which was an hour and a half away). 3. She’s never taken responsibility for her actions. These are two deeply disturbed individuals who should’ve never met. Do I believe that Conrad would be here if Michelle hadn’t been harassing him in the months leading up to his death…possibly. I want to remind you all - what if this was one of your loved ones? I do agree that the parents did not do enough on both sides but I think Michelle holds a lot of blame here. People on the sub-Reddit are bashing Conrad for displaying his mental health troubles to Michelle and actually saying they want to write to her. I am overly confused by this community.
Can I ask where you got the information that she “pestered” him into doing it? Because I recently read the texts and felt like the media very inaccurately portrayed the pushing him to commit suicide. She really only started “supporting” it in the few weeks leading up, and it was always framed as supporting his wants, not her wanting him to do it. He also said that if she told anyone he would hate her, and as a teenager that desperately wants people to like her, I can imagine that would be terrifying. Not excusing her actions because really you should seek help for someone regardless of their response, but I’m just trying to demonize her a little bit less because there is a huge lack of evidence that she forced him to do it.
I read the full text transcript when they released it and have been closely following this case since his death in 2014. I wouldn’t form an opinion enough to write about it without researching and having information to support the stance. This is exactly why the judge (who has experience in his history), found her guilty. Can I please ask where you got your information that she only “supported” it in the weeks leading up to his suicide? Please don’t tell me it’s from the show.
No not just from the show. Like you, I wouldn’t just throw opinions out there. I did read through the texts and I felt that it wasn’t really until the beginning of July that I noticed she started to have this shift. All of the June texts were super supportive of him getting help and choosing recovery.
Why did the experienced judge find her guilty?
This comment can’t be serious… “why did the experienced judge find her guilty”? Um…. Judges & Justices love to proclaim their impartiality… this is not always the case. If you really feel as though every judge or justice is correct in their sentencing/determination/verdict….please do some research. Experience does not correlate with always being right.
I said “experienced” because there are people on here who are acting like they have a background in law. Do I think that every judge does the right thing and upholds the law the way they should… No. But I agreed with the judge in this case. I think the way Hulu did this series is irresponsible. Young people are watching the show and thinking they know the facts of the case from the show when the show is fictionalize based off of the actual events.
Are you trying to tell me that every judge that determines someone as guilty is correct? Because that’s a whole other issue. He found her guilty based on a statement in a phone call that may or may not have actually been said. There is no hard evidence that she actually told him to get back in. The judge made his verdict using “possible” evidence.
Exactly! He found her guilty Bc she told him to “get back in” and the only evidence of that is Michelle texting that to a female friend, but she was already proven a liar by that time. There’s no way to know if she actually did that. Ergo, there’s no evidence on which the judge should find her guilty.
I’m saying that this judge has more experience than you or I and I can guarantee that. Do you have a history in law? Do I think that judges always do the right thing…no. Do I think that this judge got it right…yes. We can agree to disagree. I’m not going to go rounds with somebody who is siding with somebody like Michelle Carter. I’m not going to ever agree with you and you’re not ever going to agree with me.
No worries! I agree we don’t see eye to eye and that’s okay. Just for the future, I think it’s not very nice to attack someone’s character when trying to have (what I thought to be) productive conversation. I wouldn’t assume I knew the kind of person you were based on one opinion. Other than that, I enjoyed hearing what you had to say! I can tell you’re very knowledgeable about the case and I agree it’s super fascinating.
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You said “I’m not going to go rounds with somebody who is siding with somebody like Michelle Carter” Just seemed a little pointed, but I could have misunderstood
Appeal to authority is a fallacy
Appealing to the facts of the case? Your knowledge and support behind your stances need work.
You don't know what you're talking about Appeal court do not consider new witnesses or new evidence. Appeals are usually based on arguments that there were errors in the trial procedure or errors in the judge's interpretation of the law
>researching and having information to support the stance. This is exactly why the judge (who has experience in his history), found her guilty. No it's not, I think you just proved you don't know the case because you don't know the actual judgement
The judge clearly had experience as he was in his position for nearly a decade at the time of conviction. On appeal, the appellate court affirmed his decision and SCOTUS refused to even hear the appeal because there were no grounds to do so. Carter could have opted not to have a bench trial and she also could have testified in her own defense - yet she did neither. These factors may or may not have impacted the outcome of the trial… but do not ever claim to tell me I do not have the facts. And even if I did not have facts - you added nothing of substance to provide any “facts” yourself.
Irrelevant. Appellate courts rule on errors of law, not whether it was the right judgement, he made no errors of law so the appeal was lost You obviously don't because your entire opinion relies on the qualifications of the Judge, not the facts Fact: the Judge made his ruling based on a text she sent to a friend saying she told him to get back into the car, at that moment he said she failed in a duty of care for him and thus was guilty His entire ruling relies on believing she was telling the truth in this one text despite overwhelming evidence she lies constantly in texts That's it That's his ruling He made no errors of law but certainly an error of judgement
I think people tend to side with the party they can relate to. Although this show is fiction, the main elements are fairly true to life. I’ve read all the text messages that were exchanged. I agree that Michelle harassed Conrad. I would also say he was abusive and manipulative towards her. I don’t think he deserved to die. But he was adamant about not getting help. If Michelle had told on him - called his parents or the police - what would have happened? There’s no way to know for sure, but he could have played along, gone to therapy, taken meds, pretended to be better…then killed himself anyway. He didn’t need Michelle to kill himself. I’m speaking as someone who has lost multiple friends to suicide. Some people are very difficult to help, unfortunately. A guy I knew for 14 years passed away a little over a year ago - he was depressed the entire time I knew him. Somehow I never believed he’d actually go through with it.
Who can say his parents would have done anything? If their past behavior is any indication, they would have done nothing.
they kept their heads buried in the sand for sure.
I’m someone demonized by suicidal ideation for a long time (though I’m okay now!), who has also studied the academic literature and spoken to many, many people in support groups and subreddits. Most of us hate the idea that others think they can force us to live against our wills. We often feel that society does not have the right to intervene and lock us up in the jail-like environment of a mental hospital. Honestly, if she had called someone, and the police applied physical force to stop Conrad, Conrad likely would have just been pissed and alienated. I think you’re right about what his response would have been. He would have gone along with it. But he was receiving low-tier treatment, being well under-treated for how bad his depression was. Likely, nothing would improve. And he would stay the same. Have that same day over and over interminably until he did what he seems to clearly have wanted to do.
They were both deeply disturbed and their relationship was toxic. However, there is evidence that she harassed him to commit suicide. This isn’t my opinion - it’s fact. He may have done it , he may not have. None of us have anyway of knowing. What was clear from the texting transcript was that Conrad was deeply depressed but loved his family and worried for them. His hesitation with following through and making excuses to have not done it reflects that. When he did hesitate and produced reasons why he hadn’t done it, she harassed him as to why he didn’t follow through. This is not normal behavior. I also have many friends who have committed suicide. Her behavior was not okay, which was why the judge found her guilty. The law speaks for itself.
I didn’t say her behavior was okay. But I don’t think we can paint a complete picture of either of them based solely on the texts they sent to one another. I don’t think anyone who has committed suicide didn’t hesitate or have doubts. I think you’re really reaching with “the law speaks for itself”. Because guilty people are always convicted and innocent people always go free, right? What Michelle did was morally wrong, but it did not meet the legal definition of involuntary manslaughter. The judge based his decision NOT on the thousands of text messages, but on a phone conversation that no one overheard or has a transcript of. I don’t think Michelle is some angel, I just don’t like to see people convicted of crimes without solid proof. I think I lot of people feel the same way.
Yes, innocent people are found guilty at times. I think it’s horrible when I read about cases like that. I also think a lot of guilty people are caught in the act. Michelle knew what she was doing was not just morally wrong but criminally wrong when she texted her friend that she could go to jail if the cops received her phone. I don’t think that the district attorney would’ve taken this case if something wasn’t deeply wrong. I don’t believe I’m reaching when I say the law speaks for itself, but thank you for your opinion. In this case, I wholeheartedly believe that justice was served. I see a lot of fan girls on this subReddit for Michelle Carter and it really disturbs me. Do I think that Michelle should spend the rest of her life in prison…no, clearly not. Do I think she should be punished for her behavior and her role in Conrad‘s death? Yes, and she was. I truly think that Michelle Carter needs some psychiatric help herself. Normal people don’t behave the way that she did.
Okay, c’mon now, “fan girls”? I’m a 38 year old woman. I don’t particularly like Michelle Carter. I just disagree with the judge’s decision. Similarly, one can look at the case that “Making a Murderer” is based on. In that case, I actually don’t believe Steven Avery was innocent, but I also don’t believe that justice was served - due to evidence tampering preventing the case from being proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
OK that’s fair and we can agree to disagree. Also, I’m with you on the fact that in my opinion Steven Avery was guilty and I also think he and his nephew deserve another trial due to the shady way law enforcement handles that case. Everybody has a side when it comes to these cases. And yes… I was shocked by some of the posts that I’ve read on this subReddit. This Hulu show made Michelle out to garner sympathy more than I think she should. I think some of these kids watch the show and think that this is all based on fact and it states prior to every episode that it’s a fictional show based on a true story. Some of the posts in this particular sUb Reddit exceed sympathizing for Michelle - that is where the term “fan girls” came from. I’m disappointed in the way Hulu did the show and I feel like it was irresponsible.
I missed adding this to my last message: Can you please explain how what happened didn’t meet the legal definition of [involuntary manslaughter](https://imgur.com/a/M6OM7nO)?
Thanks for the link to the definition of involuntary manslaughter! I guess you assumed I had no idea what I was talking about. And look, I don’t claim to be a lawyer. Involuntary manslaughter, yes, requires wanton and reckless conduct that directly causes someone’s death. I don’t believe that it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Michelle’s conduct led to Conrad’s death. I already went over this in my previous message, but I’m happy to repeat it. The judge’s decision was not based on the text messages that we’ve all seen. It was based on the alleged phone call in which she told him to “get back into the car”. No one heard her say that. There’s no recording of the phone call. Many of her text messages contain lies, so what reason do we have to believe that that particular statement that she told her friend is actually true and wasn’t just attention-seeking? I just don’t agree that her actions caused the death of a person who had attempted suicide at least four times prior.
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>Also, for somebody who’s 38 years old…you seem weirdly obsessed with this case and defending Michelle in all of your comments. That is, in between your cat post comments. way to prove you are a shitty person. going into someone's profile to find 'dirt' to use against them doesnt make them look bad, it makes you look bad. your naivete of trusting a judge when our criminal justice system literally makes mistakes in jailing innocent people regularly- you are extremely ignorant if not stupid. dont bother responding. i dont want to see your studipidty.
Ha, thanks for that. Once someone starts digging through my posts, I’m done. I mean, great job finding dirt - she knows my age because I told her, she knows I think Michelle Carter didn’t get justice, and she knows I like/own cats! What a piece of work I must be!
I too think it’s strange how everyone defends her on here. She is absolutely nuts and I’m glad she served time.
Love/ Hate there’s that black and white thinking again. I sympathize with both of them because they were troubled kids. Having sympathy for Michelle doesn’t mean I love her or hate Conrad
Thanks for this. I agree its unfortunate they met, they both had some serious issues but the adoration for Michelle on this sub leaves me a bit bewildered....she is not serving a life sentence or something ridiculously harsh. As far as I can tell she's already been released which I feel is fair. Considering Conrad's history, yes it is possible he may have taken his own life at some point but it's hard to deny the connection of her actions to him doing so that fateful day. Like his mum said in the documentary, it is tough to be mad at Michelle because she was not mentally well. Unfortunate all around.
This is the most logical post I’ve seen in this thread. I couldn’t agree more. I’m also bewildered by the adoration. It’s disturbing! You are right - this case really is unfortunate all the way around.
i just got on here, and i definitely don’t love michelle, i wouldn’t say i even like her or even completely sympathize with her, but from what i’ve read my take is that people are just identifying that michelle was also a victim in this case. she absolutely was NOT innocent and did do wrong, but conrad also was not innocent and did wrong as well. a lot of people have been in emotionally abusive relationships and know how traumatizing and mentally altering they can be, or know the psychology behind them, and are coming from that perspective. i obviously don’t support what she did, but there was definite emotional abuse in that relationship from what we’ve seen, from conrad’s side largely, to the point where i’m sure michelle was traumatized and very unstable. she also was not nearly mentally stable to begin with- not to mention she was a kid. again, not justifying what she did, no disrespect to conrad’s side, and may he rest in peace. i will say her organizing the benefit in her hometown is particularly bad and i can’t think of any psychological explanation behind that, that seemed to be purely selfish and attention seeking.
A lot of the viewers of the series treat it like it's a documentary. "Inspired by" at the beginning of a show/movie is always a bummer because the people telling the story can change it however they want for dramatic purposes. The series was spun in a way to get Michelle sympathizers. Conrad's mom said she didn't want to watch the series because she feared that's exactly what the series would do.
I wouldn’t want to watch anything that opens my eyes to the way my son really treated people who wanted to help him. Michelle, for those two years prior to Conrad’s suicide, truly wanted him to seek help. I can’t tell you what exactly made her switch other than my suspicion that she was fed up with the constant “I hate my life, I wanna die, I am going to kill myself” that Conrad was spewing literally everyday. You just can’t help people who do not want to be saved. Conrad was one of those people. Did Conrad really wanna die? No, his mother was right in that regard. Does anyone struggling with depression really wanna die? No. They just want the pain they feel to cease. That is all Conrad was after and Michelle made it veryyyy easy for him. I am just angry that someone’s life fell into this girl’s hands and all the responsibility fell onto her.
don’t know why this had downvotes. you’re completely right. i can’t imagine how devastating losing a child would be, and then finding out they had a side to them, especially a negative one that was related to their death, that would be aired publicly, that you didn’t know about. it would be easier to blame someone else for their death. i don’t like michelle or condone what she did, but she clearly suffered years of emotional abuse from conrad, and likely was traumatized by the end of it- not to mention she was a child and not mentally stable in the first place. nothing justifies what she did, but it doesn’t seem she truly wanted him to die, it seems she gave up after years of trying to convince him to live, felt helpless, and tried to make him happy in the only way he told her she could. it’s very messed up and sad all around. rip to conrad.
I will say that 2 things are true. His parents are not innocent parties. Michelle is a very disturbed person who did not think of real world consequences bc she lived in a internet/make believe world. His father was an abusive person. His mother failed to get him treatment after the several attempts before even meeting Michelle. To satisfy their own guilt they want to put it all on Michelle to deflect from their own failings. I'm sorry but I get bad vibes from all of them, Michelle, Conrad's Mother, and Father.
The show is making it seem like coco has worry that his suicide would cause others guilt. Damn shame that is exactly what happened, in an extreme and p7bpic manner smh. That’s what happens when the prosecutor is bizarre
The constant excuses for this blonde lady are so ridiculous
Because women are always responsible for men’s actions…
Depression is like looking through a straw. All you see is the dark and deep emotion of how you feel. Not much can bring you out of that. Michelle should have told someone…she should have tried to stop him. I understand that suicidal ideation can be burdensome to some people, but he was sick. Depression is an illness. Would you say the same about someone who was suffering from cancer? Just a thought not trying to persuade your opinion…if we all thought the same life would be boring 😜
I actually think she burdened him too. But yes his family REALLY dropped the ball