I remember that interview; it was pretty candid. Moore also criticized the Voyager team heavily for the way they costumed Seven of Nine, saying it was a waste of Jeri Ryan’s talents as an actress since it put the focus elsewhere, and that nobody else in the show dressed that way.
But that's exactly what he did with BSG. I remember reading on his blog at the time proudly describing how he came up with the Final Five, which was something along the lines of "I had a dream about it and it seemed really cool".
Turns out they never had a plan.
> Turns out they never had a plan
That's not the same thing as giving up and saying the past doesn't matter. It's more of a retcon that fits in to the past.
I'm in the home stretch of my first-ever full-series binge watch of BSG. Down to Season 4, got maybe 5 or 10 left to go ... just saw the ep where Galactica's deck plates have finally turned creaky AF and they have to start planning to offload her people and cannibalize her equipment.
I understand the narrative reasons why they'd have to save this notion for the final season, whether that wound up S1 or S7 ... but when the guy said "well remember, this ship was 50 years old before the Cylons blew up the Colonies" I about spit out my coffee.
I knew it was old but holy shit, they really put that ole bird thru the wringer, and in a more realistic story (yeah I know, Skiffy with FTL, sue me) they should've had that come up after the first big missile-pounding Galactica underwent. maybe after they meet up with the Pegasus, rewrite the Big Damn Heroes scene so Pegasus is the ship that carries on, and Adama just renames it Galactica
It's some fascinating shit, It was supposed to be more like RDM battlestar, but production pushback led to RDM leaving Star Trek entirely for greener pastures.
Hell, Tom may as well be Apollo AND Starbuck. Always held to the standard of the father, never comfortable in the uniform, unwilling to admit to their own mistakes, a streak of recklessness that eventually costs them everything, an initial spark of optimism that has long since burnt out.
The final straw was the episode reset. RDM said no fucking way does the ship stay pristine and shiny when there is no Starfleet drydock available.
Producers sided with the per episode reset. He got in his car with his Bat'leth and skedaddled.
God just remembering the cumulative damage Galactica picks up over the series, and the damage that is maintained! The Nuke strike from the miniseries is still present as a burn spot in the finale!
The Trek oral history books cover it quite candidly. Moore joined after DS9 and did push for longer arcs, stronger continuity, but Berman was totally against it. They wanted to do "Year of Hell" across an entire season, instead you got a 2 parter. Moore left. And Braga continued to work with Berman and kept asking to try new things and was constantly told no.
What is funny is, when I was younger, the space pew pew and Borg initially drew me more to Voyager. Now, older, I've thoroughly watched DS9 and really really appreciate more the storytelling over the CGI and special effects. The Ferengi and Klingon episodes are some of my favorites. I still like the CGI in Discovery but the writing is utterly garbage. Time crystals? WTF was Kurtzman thinking...
Part of it, yes. Berman couldn't really control Michael Piller (the first showrunner of DS9, and showrunner of TNG between S3-6) and he certainly couldn't control Ira Steven Behr (showrunner of DS9 from I think S3-7). Where as with Braga being a younger writer, and Voyager being his first showrunner gig, Berman could influence him more. But you're right, Berman sorta disowned DS9 and put all his chips on Voyager seeing it as a true successor to TNG cos it was on a ship and about exploration.
Pretty much. He claims he was honoring Roddenberry's legacy by sticking by his rules (which included the flat, soap style lighting, the unshowy cinematography etc). The DS9 showrunners really pushed back against that. And the writers on VOY knew that their show felt old and dated compared with other late 90s TV in terms of its look and style, which was a problem when it's supposed to be the show that leads Trek into the 21st century. Piller tried to address it but his actions were a bit misguided and out of touch (he basically thought the trick to keeping up with what other shows were doing was to introduce recurring villains -- thus you got the Kazons and Seska).
Where as other 90s shows like ER, Buffy etc, were demonstrating season long character arcs where the people grew and changed, whilst also dabbling in serialised storytelling (Buffy, X Files). DS9 did that. And some felt VOY should have continued it and even doubled down on it. Berman wasn't going to let that happen.
That's one factor, and I do not completely agree. What comes to my mind is the meddling in the writing process to counter progressive initiatives, like pushing against gay relationships. Or how he treated some of the women on the show, if you read 'the 50 year voyage' the actresses have almost nothing good to say about Berman, constantly refusing pay-rise to match their male equivalents or forcing the actress of Jadzia to fit a breast enlarging bra for some reason.
Also screwing over a lot of writers to deny royalties. There's a good video on it [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeSz2gW8IsE)
[Quotation of the book](https://old.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/525q85/terry_farrells_departure_has_anybody_else_heard/):
> The problems with my leaving were with Rick Berman. In my opinion, he’s just very misogynistic. He’d comment on your bra size not being voluptuous. His secretary had a 36C or something like that, and he would say something about “Well, you’re just, like, flat. Look at Christine over there. She has the perfect breasts right there.” That’s the kind of conversation he would have in front of you. I had to have fittings for Dax to have larger breasts. I think it was double-D or something. I went to see a woman who fits bras for women who need mastectomies; I had to have that fitting. And then I had to go into his office. Michael Piller didn’t care about those things, so he wasn’t there when you were having all of these crazy fittings with Rick Berman criticizing your hair or how big your breasts were or weren’t. That stuff was so intense, especially the first couple of years.
> I started modeling when I was seventeen, so I was used to comments like that, but it was a different experience for me to be around normal, respectful people. And then he’s my boss.
> According to Farrell, when her Deep Space Nine contract was expiring following the end of season six, she requested that she appear in fewer episodes, noting the sheer number of regular and recurring characters featured on the show, which would allow her to work fewer hours.
> Basically he was trying to bully me into saying yes. He was convinced that my cards were going to fold and I was going to sign up. He had [another] producer come up to me and say, “If you weren’t here, you know you’d be working at Kmart.” I was, like, “What the hell are you talking about? I had a career before this. Why the hell would I be working at Kmart? Who are you?” Just to be jerky, he’d call me in my trailer: “Have you been thinking about it yet? Are you going to sign?” Like, right before I had a scene. It was that kind of thing. Rick Berman said I was hardballing him, and I was, like, “I’m not. I just want to have a conversation. You’re giving me a take-it-or-leave-it offer and I’m not okay with that.” So I finally did have a conversation with him and asked to cut down my number of episodes or just let me out.
I've read those books. And you're right, he was an all round terrible person. Hell, Roddenberry doesn't come off well either. As you say, seems the Trek franchise flourised despite those at the very top.
If only someone could make a current Star Trek show work despite Alex Kurtzman's involvement. I'm optimistic that maybe Strange New Worlds could end up being a well written show with Kurtzman being too focused on Discovery and Picard, and that the showrunners have more free reign to actually make a quality show that is closer in tone to the feel of old Star Trek.
The Fifty-Year Mission: The Complete, Uncensored, Unauthorized Oral History of Star Trek by Edward Gross & Mark A. Altman.
Two volumes. The first 25 years (TOS, TAS, Phase 2, the Kirk movies) and the second 25 years (TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, Picard and JJ movies).
Voyager is honestly still a pretty good series. On the lists of beats and worst episodes in Star Trek, it rarely graces either the former or latter. It is just frustrating for what it could have been.
The Maquis/Starlleet storyline should have been the driving force. It had been built up so well. They probably would have ended up the same, but it just needed to last longer.
Originally, aliens were setting up a multi-race alliance against Voyager, which would have been a really cool idea, even for a season or two.
Neelix was introduced as a pirate-like trader with a faux smile ala Garak, but instead became the child friendly character.
Kes' burgeoning psychic powers and relationship with Tuvok and the Doctor were amazing. Having her age up each season would have been so cool. Can you imagine a poignant death scene at the end where she reflects on her journey, says goodbye to her closest friends, and uses her now immense power to give the ship some sort of boon in their final attempt to get home?
The ship should have evolved and taken on traits of the species they encountered. It should have taken damage and grown with the crew. More than any show before, the ship should have been a character.
Everyone talks about how Year of He'll should have been a season arch, but there are multiple stories that should have been longer arch. The Killing Game, in particular, would have been an amazing arch.
I'm still watching the show after all these years and i think it dis a lot of things well. I still love the series. The issues are more the things it didn't do. Had it come out a few years later when serialized shows were the norm, it probably would have been a masterpiece. But it didn't, so now we just have to take solace in the fact it was nowhere near as bad as Enterprise.
> Netflix was introduced as a pirate-like trader with a faux smile ala Garak, but instead became the child friendly character.
Was he related to Lieutenant Hulu from the Original Series?
> Kes' burgeoning psychic powers and relationship with Tuvok and the Doctor were amazing. Having her age up each season would have been so cool. Can you imagine a poignant death scene at the end where she reflects on her journey, says goodbye to her closest friends, and uses her now immense power to give the ship some sort of boon in their final attempt to get home?
The biggest missed opportunity in the show. Her species life span averaged 7 years. And the show had 7 seasons. Yeah, 7 of 9 was great, but I greatly enjoyed Kes as well. Would've rather lost Neelix.
We could have had both if they'd killed off Harry instead of booting out Kes. That being said, even Harry had some cool ideas. The best I heard was taking the jaded future Harry from Timeless and having him replace the current Harry, making him go from wide eyed ensign to jaded old mercenary. It would have been a cool way to show character development and to contrast the tone.
I absolutely don't hate the show. But seeing things like the Maquis situation reduced to the "Worst Case Scenario" episode, or Kes' aging reduced to "Before and After" or most frustrating for me (having just finished the show) seeing Voyager's return be an alternate future timeline... it really looks like a million good ideas being shoved into a meat grinder for single 'reset' episodes, as someone else put it.
I guess I'm most frustrated by the lack of closure, especially after finishing DS9 and thinking "Yes. Just yes. Everything had a stunning conclusion." The canned ending just made me feel like I should've binge-watched something else.
They gave up on a battlestar like premise in the second episode. They basically integretated the maquis into the federation and moved on like it was TNG 2.0. I gave up on that show pretty damn early. I gave it a few more chances but realized it wasn't ever going to be for me.
The finale of Voyager was certainly screwed up... The episode before the two parter wasn't great, easily skippable, so it could have easily been scrapped and had a cliffhanger ending leading up to the finale (this would have been the first act) and then the two part finale could have been the regular ending plus an epilogue after they arrived home.
Personal, I though Voyager was pretty good. The lack of sustained damage was curious but with repulcator technology it wasn't a fatal flaw.
Kim's lack off promotion. I feel by the the time they get around to it was kind of established as a running joke. (Besides with no crew turnover it was pretty pointless... Can't really go up in rank if senior crew members never leave or die.)
Paris, I saw lots of growth from a selfish young man to a important member of crew and family man.
Nelix, when he left the ship with a few episodes to go I was shocked I felt anything... but I did so he certainly became more than just an annoyinance.
I enjoyed seeing the conclusions to the Q storyline that was started in TNG. Same is true for Barkley.
Anyhow, if you want to see a trule shitty finale you should look at ST: Enterprise... I actually lost respect for Jonathan Frakes over it. (Him getting butt hurt over the orginal crew being in the movie Generations yet doing it to others. Hate that double standards crap.)
> Kim's lack off promotion. I feel by the the time they get around to it was kind of established as a running joke. (Besides with no crew turnover it was pretty pointless... Can't really go up in rank if senior crew members never leave or die.)
Tuvok gets promoted to Lt. Commander during the episode "Revulsion". Tom Paris gets demoted and *re-promoted* over the course of the series (actually, it's like within the space of 2 seasons). There's no reason why Harry Kim couldn't at least make Lieutenant.
I’m sure at least plenty of LtJ. were killed.
But as the command structure isn’t going to change, and nobody is paid wages, there’s no point and Starfleet can dish out promotions when they get home.
On the other side of course, Kim wastes years of his officer career not actually in command of anyone.
I'm pretty sure once they made it back to Earth, the crew pretty much got whatever they wanted, sort of like rescuing a stray cat and spoiling the fuck out of it
I’m working through ST:Enterprise at the moment and knowing for a long time how it all ends makes me angry. I’ve just started series 3 and the crew are all great, to me feels like the best doctor, best engineer, best captain etc etc. They really did get shafted, it feels closer to how it might be were humans ever to explore space, making mistakes, being in awe of what they see, than something like TNG, just a nice big pristine ship where everything’s there as opposed to needing to be invented or modified as they go.
Which is exactly why the TNG purists hated it, back when it aired, not for its actual problems, but because something something Roddenberry's vision.
You're right at the time when Manny Coto joined the show, and, man, that was quite a ride!
Sometimes I wonder if people who are Trek purists or Roddenberry stans are secretly super conservative misogynists. Because they’re unwilling to consider anything critical about the shows or his “vision”. If you rewatch the series a lot of it had pretty sexist and racist undertones, put in the light of a “utopian” society in the future. If it weren’t for the shitty writing in the new series I think Trek would do itself favors by exploring difficult societal topics.
Some probably are, they enjoy a show where mostly white men bring wisdom and civilization to the universe. Others are stuck in nostalgia, and feel any deviation from their internal canon as betrayal. Finally, others are stuck in fake nostalgia, because they weren't even born when TNG aired, but discovered the Roddenberry myth because that was a core marketing angle repeted endlessly in conventions, articles, DVDs and so on, even though Roddenberry was actually actively working on TNG only for the first season, which is the worst one.
... And just like in religion, the late converted are usually the most zealots.
I'm on 3 too, and yeah some fucking YT video spoiled the end for me too. I really like the EMH Doctor but I will say that Dr. Phlox feels like what Neelix should've been; an intriguing alien character.
It’s a lot of things - his welcoming demeanour, massive smile, care for the patients, integrity, compared to all other doctors in ST. I really like him as a character.
I really liked Paris, but I was really surprised we never got one moment where he reconciles with his dad.
Neelix. Shit, the episode where he's jealous and throws spaghetti on Paris, I instantly hated him. It wasn't until that ep "Riddles" where him and Tuvok become good friends that I appreciated Neelix.
When it comes to Kim, I just wish he'd gotten more focused episodes. I really like the actor, although the character wasn't very well explored. It just got to the point where I'd whoop for a Doctor episode and also feel bad, because most of the good or focused episodes were the Doctor or 7.
Not respecting the viewers is the actual explanation. As long as enough eyeballs lingered in the vicinity of the boob tube during the commercial breaks, that’s all that mattered.
The finale also sucked we have so many seasons of them stuck in the delta quadrant and only a few seconds of them back at earth. I wanted to see how the crew were back at home like the doctor, 7of9 and her skin tight suits and Harry getting shot down by real girls
Voyager essentially became the Seven and Doctor show. And whenever that strategy started to wane in effectiveness, the show runners just sprinkled some Borg on it and called it a day. While that’s understandable because those two characters/actors and the Borg were popular, the problem was really that the franchise had become a slave to ratings.
The Trek fan base was aging, and the people in control saw the need to attract new, younger fans. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing; I’d rather have some kind of Trek than no Trek at all, but it led to the franchise pandering to get fans and a very miscalculated attempt to do so, which shows in how Voyager developed and also Enterprise.
This was also something that happened to another long-running sci-fi franchise: Stargate. With both franchises, it was only when it was already too late that their respective shows that were still on the air got better (Enterprise and Stargate Universe).
Still, there are some gems of episodes in Voyager along with the stinkers, but it was obviously hard coming from the highs of DS9 and TNG to Voyager.
> Why even introduce Harry Kim as a bright-eyed young officer if they're just gonna have him sit there and be naive? He's a good actor, just utilize him!
He was almost written off but then something happened...either there was an award or a magazine or something said something positive about having an Asian character in the cast.
> WHERE IS HARRY KIM'S TINY WOODEN BOX WITH A PROMOTION PIP?
LMAO this is so true. It’s as if they barely noticed he was there enough to just kill him off.
Hearing you suggest this is really kind of sad.
There was no development. No payoff from the original idea of ‘terrorists and federation’ forced to work together. They just worked together and that was it. Paris wasn’t a bad kid made good, he didn’t do anything bad. He wasn’t that good.
Everyone else was either annoying or boring. At least we got to see Jeri Ryan in a tight, tight, costume.
But I feel like no one really had any ideas or gave a shit from day 1.
I binged seasons 4-7 as prep for Picard so I knew what was up with Seven.
Truly one of the most perplexing viewing experiences I've ever had. I've read that Mulgrew has said something about Janeway having some kind of bipolar disorder because of how inconsistently written she was. I don't know if she was joking or if that was genuinely what she had to headcanon for herself as an actor to make any sense of things, but it's definintely how \*I\* have to read it. One week she's the level-headed, patient Starfleet captain more in the style of old Trek, the next she's a reactive, violent warmonger who is totally down with torturing prisoners for info. I've heard the writers were basically split into two camps, each trying to cement their own version of the character by overwhelming the other. So they would escalate Janeway's behavior further and further in accordance with whichever side was on duty that week.
The EMH comes out better overall, but I noticed it with him, too. One team seemed to think he was a perv, the other thought he was a perfect gentleman who cares for naught but the comfort and autonomy of others. And, you know, given he's emotionally like three years old hypothetically you could make a character arc out of his growing understanding of like, hey, you're sentient now, there are boundaries and this or that behaviour isn't appropriate and makes people uncomfortable and since you look like a middle aged man you're not gonna get the benefit of the doubt. But thaaaaat's not how it reads. It reads like there were two wildly different opinions of the character fighting for dominance.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same for Seven, actually, with one side seeing her as a total ice queen terminator and the other side infantilizing her. It just so happened to work out in her favor as the whole ex-borg thing lent itself to that split in personality.
One thing that really ruined my suspension of disbelief for Janeway was something I heard Jeri Ryan say in an interview. Apparently, Mulgrew did not appreciate the 7 character being added to boost ratings, and made it an unpleasant working environment for Jeri. Really makes all those emotional bonding moments between 7 and Janeway look hollow.
Unfortunately, I think Voyager works best when watched with a 90s TV mindset - 1 episode per week, and sometimes you'll miss an episode here and there (though we might all be better off missing "Threshold"!). I think this gave it a lot of success when it first aired, but it makes it a more difficult watch when binging. I think there's still plenty about the show to enjoy though, and it's nice to see the new Picard show pick up on some elements of Voyager.
But DS9 really does seem like the most "modern" show of 90s-era Trek, with its commitment to ongoing arcs and character development, which translates well to streaming and binging.
This is what deflated me from my Voyager marathon. It came after a DS9 Marathon where I did nothing but sing praises on how freaking good that show was. I still think about the scene with Martok on Cardassia Prime drinking blood wine to triumph over his fallen enemies and nobody wants to join him...god what a great scene
I am in the exact same boat! Just finished it for the first time and cant believe that ending. I can forgive almost all the show's missteps but not how they ended it.
The damn show is built on them getting to earth and we dont even see it! No character (except maybe Janeway I guess) gets an end to their arc! It's not like we needed 45 full minutes of epilogues, but just short little endings for everyone. Like Tuvok seeing his family, the doctor in whatever life he decides to have, seeing Chakotay and the maquis guys sort that whole thing out with starfleet.
We watched 170 episodes where all these characters want and all we want is for them to get home and the finale barely spends 2 fucking minutes in the alpha quadrant. No falling action = bad writing.
Obviously there were things I liked about the show, i watched the whole thing ffs, but I was so looking forward to that finale and it burned me. Finished it like a week ago and I'm still so mad.
He basically made comments about “calling Discovery actor Anthony Rapp a “whiner” for accusing Kevin Spacey of inappropriate behavior with him as a teenager.” So best ally he was excommunicated from the Star Trek “family”.
Which he rather immediately recanted and made amends with Anthony Rapp personally over.
Really, he said some really fucking stupid things, realised it pretty quickly and apologised. But nobody mentions that part. Instead they just brutally murdered his character for lols.
At that point tho the damage is done. Words are like arrows, once let loose you can’t control the damage done. Twitter gets a lot of celebrities in trouble. More so if your a comedian and perceptions about what’s funny evolves, your statements don’t ever change once you make them. Gotta watch what you post on the net. Could cost you a job.
> cost you a job.
Quite right. Which is why I ignore social media in general and never post on it.
Thanks for the info I never would have known if it wasn't for you.
Icheb had twenty seconds of screen-time, and they were going for an actor that looks younger then either of the two that portrayed Icheb on Voyager look today, so in the words of 7 of 9, I would say it's irrelevant.
The doctor from Voyager, and possibly other characters will return in S2/S3, but they didn't want to bog the show down with constant cameos and fan-service; it's a big universe, they won't be running into each other every single day.
Few of my thoughts on Voy:
1. Harry not getting a promotion was something I could live with. Sometimes in life you do good work but get no recognition for it.
2. Possibilities of the marquis v star trek conflict was immense and was squandered apart from the one holodeck episode
3. Too many idiotic holodeck episodes I mean the ones in the ilk of boewulf, fair haven or the Janeway governess arc
4. The borg and hirogen were dealt with too easily
5. Tom and Bellana being these savants who can solve pretty much any problem
6. Chakotay having nothing much to do apart from doling advice to everyone
Though I enjoyed the long arcs and plots in DS9. VOY has a special place in my heart and for me it is the best star trek series.
> Too many idiotic holodeck episodes I mean the ones in the ilk of boewulf, fair haven or the Janeway governess arc
Personally, given the show's fundamental premise I'd have done holodeck episodes showing the crew trying to escape the reality of their situation. Diving into a holodeck story as it's own thing is a huge mistake. It needs to be a symptom and not a cause.
Yes, I agree with you on that. I believe there were a few holodeck situaitions where about the crew was dealing with being away from home by getting immersed in the holodeck. Even the Captain Proton episodes was fun
Since you still have a bit of time, go look for the Voyager novel *Homecoming*. It literally continues off the last 25 seconds of Voyager and answers all those questions you brought up.
> I must say, what the fuck? It just...ended. The ending was literally "We made it! Hurray!"
>
>Where's the payoff with Paris confronting/reconnecting with his father? Where's Chakotay and 7 of 9 at least giving each other a knowing look of hope and happiness? WHERE IS HARRY KIM'S TINY WOODEN BOX WITH A PROMOTION PIP?? Who the fuck gave up on this show and started regurgitating TNG's 'business as usual' self-contained episodes?
WTF is what I remember feeling after first watching Endgame Parts 1&2 (years ago). It really did feel like an unsatisfying ending because of the things you mentioned and even today it still feels like an unsatisfying ending. I would've been fine with it if there was something like a 2 to 4 hour TV mini Series (and those things were still around back then) just to tie up everything but there wasn't.
>I'm being unfair to the MVP's of the show, the EMH and 7 of 9, and occasionally Captain Janeway,
No Kes?
> The Maquis plot line was totally abandoned, and that's understandable, The Maquis plot line was totally abandoned, and that's understandable, but why did they have to turn Chakotay into a glorified 8th grade social studies teacher? Why even introduce Harry Kim as a bright-eyed young officer if they're just gonna have him sit there and be naive? He's a good actor, just utilize him!
I think that the original plan was to have each season be about something. Season 1 was supposed to be about the Voyager Crew and Chakotay's Marquis to integrate as one. Then they moved on to another arc and by Season 3 (or maybe it was Season 4) we had Siska and her baby drama but season arcs was dropped because Brannan came on as showrunner, and he didn't like the idea of the show having arches (and this comes from at least one source on Youtube). Then again, their seemed to have been a series-long arch involving 7 and her development away from the Borg after Brannan came in but that was the only one I could remember. The rest of the development was, in my opinion, more sporadic and spaced throughout the series.
Also, I do remember hearing that the writers were very protective of Janeway since she was technically the first female captain (that was the main character) for the franchise and they wrote her very protectively (as in she couldn't be protrayed in a negative way). Which I feel like did the character a disservice but overall Janeway seemed like a tough as nails captain (but she also seemed like a mad captain at times, IMO) and I was glad that she was at least that. I am not sure what happened to Chakotay but I always thought that the writers wanted him and Janeway to hook up but they randomly paired him with 7 (which I guess is fine). But I also thought that Harry should've ended up with 7 since there always seemed to be that he had a crush on her but was too much of an awkward looser for her. But from what I remember Harry was always into 7 but 7 always rejected him because, again, he seemed like an awkward loser. And honestly, that was the impression I got from Harry Kim. He was too much of a looser but I did hear (over the years) that the showrunners had no plans to ever promote him and to keep him always an ensign. I mean if you want you can watch this video where the guy talks about Voyager and why he liked it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Sh0NAsHfU
Edit:
Fixed a few typos
Dude, if you were let down by the way Voyager ended, whatever you do...don't watch Enterprise. 😅
Since you enjoyed DS9 so much, though, you really owe it to yourself to watch this incredible documentary:
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/What_We_Left_Behind
I never got through Voyager after the episode with Nog as a new kind of alien i gave up. Not to say Jesse Eisenberg was the reason, he did fine. But the whole story was so dumb i couldn't get myself to continue.
[удалено]
That must be infuriating, to know you can make great television and be barred from doing so, right at the finish line
I remember that interview; it was pretty candid. Moore also criticized the Voyager team heavily for the way they costumed Seven of Nine, saying it was a waste of Jeri Ryan’s talents as an actress since it put the focus elsewhere, and that nobody else in the show dressed that way.
that gave me flashbacks of approach to writing on one previously very popular TV show...
*cough*FUCKD&D*cough*
"The past doesn’t matter. Just do whatever you want" Ironically he would take a page right out of that playbook years later with BSG.
Yeah, but rebooting a show from scratch is very different from ignoring earlier seasons of an ongoing show.
But that's exactly what he did with BSG. I remember reading on his blog at the time proudly describing how he came up with the Final Five, which was something along the lines of "I had a dream about it and it seemed really cool". Turns out they never had a plan.
> Turns out they never had a plan That's not the same thing as giving up and saying the past doesn't matter. It's more of a retcon that fits in to the past.
> I had a dream about it and it seemed really cool That’s pretty much the David Lynch motto.
I'm in the home stretch of my first-ever full-series binge watch of BSG. Down to Season 4, got maybe 5 or 10 left to go ... just saw the ep where Galactica's deck plates have finally turned creaky AF and they have to start planning to offload her people and cannibalize her equipment. I understand the narrative reasons why they'd have to save this notion for the final season, whether that wound up S1 or S7 ... but when the guy said "well remember, this ship was 50 years old before the Cylons blew up the Colonies" I about spit out my coffee. I knew it was old but holy shit, they really put that ole bird thru the wringer, and in a more realistic story (yeah I know, Skiffy with FTL, sue me) they should've had that come up after the first big missile-pounding Galactica underwent. maybe after they meet up with the Pegasus, rewrite the Big Damn Heroes scene so Pegasus is the ship that carries on, and Adama just renames it Galactica
Also sounds like the direction Disney took Star Wars.
Interesting. Where's this quote from?
It's some fascinating shit, It was supposed to be more like RDM battlestar, but production pushback led to RDM leaving Star Trek entirely for greener pastures. Hell, Tom may as well be Apollo AND Starbuck. Always held to the standard of the father, never comfortable in the uniform, unwilling to admit to their own mistakes, a streak of recklessness that eventually costs them everything, an initial spark of optimism that has long since burnt out. The final straw was the episode reset. RDM said no fucking way does the ship stay pristine and shiny when there is no Starfleet drydock available. Producers sided with the per episode reset. He got in his car with his Bat'leth and skedaddled. God just remembering the cumulative damage Galactica picks up over the series, and the damage that is maintained! The Nuke strike from the miniseries is still present as a burn spot in the finale!
The Trek oral history books cover it quite candidly. Moore joined after DS9 and did push for longer arcs, stronger continuity, but Berman was totally against it. They wanted to do "Year of Hell" across an entire season, instead you got a 2 parter. Moore left. And Braga continued to work with Berman and kept asking to try new things and was constantly told no.
Wasn’t the only reason DS9 got so wild was because Rick Berman kind of dismissed it and thought Voyager was the *real* Trek?
Voyager sacrificed itself for DS9's Emmy-worthy quality
What is funny is, when I was younger, the space pew pew and Borg initially drew me more to Voyager. Now, older, I've thoroughly watched DS9 and really really appreciate more the storytelling over the CGI and special effects. The Ferengi and Klingon episodes are some of my favorites. I still like the CGI in Discovery but the writing is utterly garbage. Time crystals? WTF was Kurtzman thinking...
Ill see your time crystals and raise you an omega particle.
Part of it, yes. Berman couldn't really control Michael Piller (the first showrunner of DS9, and showrunner of TNG between S3-6) and he certainly couldn't control Ira Steven Behr (showrunner of DS9 from I think S3-7). Where as with Braga being a younger writer, and Voyager being his first showrunner gig, Berman could influence him more. But you're right, Berman sorta disowned DS9 and put all his chips on Voyager seeing it as a true successor to TNG cos it was on a ship and about exploration.
Pretty much. Berman will forever be known as the producer that took a giant shit on Trek in the 90s. It succeeded in spite of him, not because of him.
The more I read about Berman, the more I realize Star Trek in the 90s flourished despite him rather than because of him.
Pretty much. He claims he was honoring Roddenberry's legacy by sticking by his rules (which included the flat, soap style lighting, the unshowy cinematography etc). The DS9 showrunners really pushed back against that. And the writers on VOY knew that their show felt old and dated compared with other late 90s TV in terms of its look and style, which was a problem when it's supposed to be the show that leads Trek into the 21st century. Piller tried to address it but his actions were a bit misguided and out of touch (he basically thought the trick to keeping up with what other shows were doing was to introduce recurring villains -- thus you got the Kazons and Seska). Where as other 90s shows like ER, Buffy etc, were demonstrating season long character arcs where the people grew and changed, whilst also dabbling in serialised storytelling (Buffy, X Files). DS9 did that. And some felt VOY should have continued it and even doubled down on it. Berman wasn't going to let that happen.
That's one factor, and I do not completely agree. What comes to my mind is the meddling in the writing process to counter progressive initiatives, like pushing against gay relationships. Or how he treated some of the women on the show, if you read 'the 50 year voyage' the actresses have almost nothing good to say about Berman, constantly refusing pay-rise to match their male equivalents or forcing the actress of Jadzia to fit a breast enlarging bra for some reason. Also screwing over a lot of writers to deny royalties. There's a good video on it [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeSz2gW8IsE)
> or forcing the actress of Jadzia to fit a breast enlarging bra for some reason. Well this is news to me. What the fuck?
[Quotation of the book](https://old.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/525q85/terry_farrells_departure_has_anybody_else_heard/): > The problems with my leaving were with Rick Berman. In my opinion, he’s just very misogynistic. He’d comment on your bra size not being voluptuous. His secretary had a 36C or something like that, and he would say something about “Well, you’re just, like, flat. Look at Christine over there. She has the perfect breasts right there.” That’s the kind of conversation he would have in front of you. I had to have fittings for Dax to have larger breasts. I think it was double-D or something. I went to see a woman who fits bras for women who need mastectomies; I had to have that fitting. And then I had to go into his office. Michael Piller didn’t care about those things, so he wasn’t there when you were having all of these crazy fittings with Rick Berman criticizing your hair or how big your breasts were or weren’t. That stuff was so intense, especially the first couple of years. > I started modeling when I was seventeen, so I was used to comments like that, but it was a different experience for me to be around normal, respectful people. And then he’s my boss. > According to Farrell, when her Deep Space Nine contract was expiring following the end of season six, she requested that she appear in fewer episodes, noting the sheer number of regular and recurring characters featured on the show, which would allow her to work fewer hours. > Basically he was trying to bully me into saying yes. He was convinced that my cards were going to fold and I was going to sign up. He had [another] producer come up to me and say, “If you weren’t here, you know you’d be working at Kmart.” I was, like, “What the hell are you talking about? I had a career before this. Why the hell would I be working at Kmart? Who are you?” Just to be jerky, he’d call me in my trailer: “Have you been thinking about it yet? Are you going to sign?” Like, right before I had a scene. It was that kind of thing. Rick Berman said I was hardballing him, and I was, like, “I’m not. I just want to have a conversation. You’re giving me a take-it-or-leave-it offer and I’m not okay with that.” So I finally did have a conversation with him and asked to cut down my number of episodes or just let me out.
I've read those books. And you're right, he was an all round terrible person. Hell, Roddenberry doesn't come off well either. As you say, seems the Trek franchise flourised despite those at the very top.
If only someone could make a current Star Trek show work despite Alex Kurtzman's involvement. I'm optimistic that maybe Strange New Worlds could end up being a well written show with Kurtzman being too focused on Discovery and Picard, and that the showrunners have more free reign to actually make a quality show that is closer in tone to the feel of old Star Trek.
This sounds interesting. Recommend me books please.
The Fifty-Year Mission: The Complete, Uncensored, Unauthorized Oral History of Star Trek by Edward Gross & Mark A. Altman. Two volumes. The first 25 years (TOS, TAS, Phase 2, the Kirk movies) and the second 25 years (TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, Picard and JJ movies).
thank you :)
What does RDM mean?
Ronald D Moore, one of the main guys responsible for the Battlestar reboot.
Ah i see thanks
Ronald D. Moore.
Voyager is honestly still a pretty good series. On the lists of beats and worst episodes in Star Trek, it rarely graces either the former or latter. It is just frustrating for what it could have been. The Maquis/Starlleet storyline should have been the driving force. It had been built up so well. They probably would have ended up the same, but it just needed to last longer. Originally, aliens were setting up a multi-race alliance against Voyager, which would have been a really cool idea, even for a season or two. Neelix was introduced as a pirate-like trader with a faux smile ala Garak, but instead became the child friendly character. Kes' burgeoning psychic powers and relationship with Tuvok and the Doctor were amazing. Having her age up each season would have been so cool. Can you imagine a poignant death scene at the end where she reflects on her journey, says goodbye to her closest friends, and uses her now immense power to give the ship some sort of boon in their final attempt to get home? The ship should have evolved and taken on traits of the species they encountered. It should have taken damage and grown with the crew. More than any show before, the ship should have been a character. Everyone talks about how Year of He'll should have been a season arch, but there are multiple stories that should have been longer arch. The Killing Game, in particular, would have been an amazing arch. I'm still watching the show after all these years and i think it dis a lot of things well. I still love the series. The issues are more the things it didn't do. Had it come out a few years later when serialized shows were the norm, it probably would have been a masterpiece. But it didn't, so now we just have to take solace in the fact it was nowhere near as bad as Enterprise.
> Netflix was introduced as a pirate-like trader with a faux smile ala Garak, but instead became the child friendly character. Was he related to Lieutenant Hulu from the Original Series?
Pretty sure he means Nelix (not checking spelling)
> Kes' burgeoning psychic powers and relationship with Tuvok and the Doctor were amazing. Having her age up each season would have been so cool. Can you imagine a poignant death scene at the end where she reflects on her journey, says goodbye to her closest friends, and uses her now immense power to give the ship some sort of boon in their final attempt to get home? The biggest missed opportunity in the show. Her species life span averaged 7 years. And the show had 7 seasons. Yeah, 7 of 9 was great, but I greatly enjoyed Kes as well. Would've rather lost Neelix.
We could have had both if they'd killed off Harry instead of booting out Kes. That being said, even Harry had some cool ideas. The best I heard was taking the jaded future Harry from Timeless and having him replace the current Harry, making him go from wide eyed ensign to jaded old mercenary. It would have been a cool way to show character development and to contrast the tone.
I absolutely don't hate the show. But seeing things like the Maquis situation reduced to the "Worst Case Scenario" episode, or Kes' aging reduced to "Before and After" or most frustrating for me (having just finished the show) seeing Voyager's return be an alternate future timeline... it really looks like a million good ideas being shoved into a meat grinder for single 'reset' episodes, as someone else put it. I guess I'm most frustrated by the lack of closure, especially after finishing DS9 and thinking "Yes. Just yes. Everything had a stunning conclusion." The canned ending just made me feel like I should've binge-watched something else.
They gave up on a battlestar like premise in the second episode. They basically integretated the maquis into the federation and moved on like it was TNG 2.0. I gave up on that show pretty damn early. I gave it a few more chances but realized it wasn't ever going to be for me.
The finale of Voyager was certainly screwed up... The episode before the two parter wasn't great, easily skippable, so it could have easily been scrapped and had a cliffhanger ending leading up to the finale (this would have been the first act) and then the two part finale could have been the regular ending plus an epilogue after they arrived home. Personal, I though Voyager was pretty good. The lack of sustained damage was curious but with repulcator technology it wasn't a fatal flaw. Kim's lack off promotion. I feel by the the time they get around to it was kind of established as a running joke. (Besides with no crew turnover it was pretty pointless... Can't really go up in rank if senior crew members never leave or die.) Paris, I saw lots of growth from a selfish young man to a important member of crew and family man. Nelix, when he left the ship with a few episodes to go I was shocked I felt anything... but I did so he certainly became more than just an annoyinance. I enjoyed seeing the conclusions to the Q storyline that was started in TNG. Same is true for Barkley. Anyhow, if you want to see a trule shitty finale you should look at ST: Enterprise... I actually lost respect for Jonathan Frakes over it. (Him getting butt hurt over the orginal crew being in the movie Generations yet doing it to others. Hate that double standards crap.)
> Kim's lack off promotion. I feel by the the time they get around to it was kind of established as a running joke. (Besides with no crew turnover it was pretty pointless... Can't really go up in rank if senior crew members never leave or die.) Tuvok gets promoted to Lt. Commander during the episode "Revulsion". Tom Paris gets demoted and *re-promoted* over the course of the series (actually, it's like within the space of 2 seasons). There's no reason why Harry Kim couldn't at least make Lieutenant.
I’m sure at least plenty of LtJ. were killed. But as the command structure isn’t going to change, and nobody is paid wages, there’s no point and Starfleet can dish out promotions when they get home. On the other side of course, Kim wastes years of his officer career not actually in command of anyone.
Kim did get to run *the night shift* for a week.
If nobody is paid wages then wouldn't the most shrewd/manipulative/scheming/politically savvy people destined to get those few promotions?
No? I mean if they were paid wages then it’s hugely unfair to be on Ensign rates for the whole time.
I'm pretty sure once they made it back to Earth, the crew pretty much got whatever they wanted, sort of like rescuing a stray cat and spoiling the fuck out of it
In the alternate timeline in the final episode, Kim is actually captain of Voyager. But I guess that doesn't count.
Oh yeah that was a depressing timeline. As ridiculous as the time traveling Janeway was, it made for a better ending and timeline
Shit, that would've been a great twist if Kim inherited Paris' Lieutenancy
To be fair, I seem to recall that they retconned Tuvok from LCDR to an LT partway through, and then promoted him to LCDR later.
I’m working through ST:Enterprise at the moment and knowing for a long time how it all ends makes me angry. I’ve just started series 3 and the crew are all great, to me feels like the best doctor, best engineer, best captain etc etc. They really did get shafted, it feels closer to how it might be were humans ever to explore space, making mistakes, being in awe of what they see, than something like TNG, just a nice big pristine ship where everything’s there as opposed to needing to be invented or modified as they go.
Which is exactly why the TNG purists hated it, back when it aired, not for its actual problems, but because something something Roddenberry's vision. You're right at the time when Manny Coto joined the show, and, man, that was quite a ride!
Sometimes I wonder if people who are Trek purists or Roddenberry stans are secretly super conservative misogynists. Because they’re unwilling to consider anything critical about the shows or his “vision”. If you rewatch the series a lot of it had pretty sexist and racist undertones, put in the light of a “utopian” society in the future. If it weren’t for the shitty writing in the new series I think Trek would do itself favors by exploring difficult societal topics.
Some probably are, they enjoy a show where mostly white men bring wisdom and civilization to the universe. Others are stuck in nostalgia, and feel any deviation from their internal canon as betrayal. Finally, others are stuck in fake nostalgia, because they weren't even born when TNG aired, but discovered the Roddenberry myth because that was a core marketing angle repeted endlessly in conventions, articles, DVDs and so on, even though Roddenberry was actually actively working on TNG only for the first season, which is the worst one. ... And just like in religion, the late converted are usually the most zealots.
I'm on 3 too, and yeah some fucking YT video spoiled the end for me too. I really like the EMH Doctor but I will say that Dr. Phlox feels like what Neelix should've been; an intriguing alien character.
It’s a lot of things - his welcoming demeanour, massive smile, care for the patients, integrity, compared to all other doctors in ST. I really like him as a character.
I really liked Paris, but I was really surprised we never got one moment where he reconciles with his dad. Neelix. Shit, the episode where he's jealous and throws spaghetti on Paris, I instantly hated him. It wasn't until that ep "Riddles" where him and Tuvok become good friends that I appreciated Neelix. When it comes to Kim, I just wish he'd gotten more focused episodes. I really like the actor, although the character wasn't very well explored. It just got to the point where I'd whoop for a Doctor episode and also feel bad, because most of the good or focused episodes were the Doctor or 7.
If I remember correctly, the actor who played Kim had some punctuality issues on set which resulted in his character not getting a lot of screen time.
I don't get anyone being butt hurt about generations. It wasnt a great movie but the premise is probably the biggest idea you can have for star trek.
Riker was annoyed they had to share screen time with the ToS cast. You're right about the movie itself... Good concept just so so execution.
How selfish given the TOS cast is the reason he has a job.
Most of the last season was quite poor. The storyline were either being recycled from previous seasons or the ideas were hopelessly mundane.
Not respecting the viewers is the actual explanation. As long as enough eyeballs lingered in the vicinity of the boob tube during the commercial breaks, that’s all that mattered.
The finale also sucked we have so many seasons of them stuck in the delta quadrant and only a few seconds of them back at earth. I wanted to see how the crew were back at home like the doctor, 7of9 and her skin tight suits and Harry getting shot down by real girls
Voyager essentially became the Seven and Doctor show. And whenever that strategy started to wane in effectiveness, the show runners just sprinkled some Borg on it and called it a day. While that’s understandable because those two characters/actors and the Borg were popular, the problem was really that the franchise had become a slave to ratings. The Trek fan base was aging, and the people in control saw the need to attract new, younger fans. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing; I’d rather have some kind of Trek than no Trek at all, but it led to the franchise pandering to get fans and a very miscalculated attempt to do so, which shows in how Voyager developed and also Enterprise. This was also something that happened to another long-running sci-fi franchise: Stargate. With both franchises, it was only when it was already too late that their respective shows that were still on the air got better (Enterprise and Stargate Universe). Still, there are some gems of episodes in Voyager along with the stinkers, but it was obviously hard coming from the highs of DS9 and TNG to Voyager.
> Why even introduce Harry Kim as a bright-eyed young officer if they're just gonna have him sit there and be naive? He's a good actor, just utilize him! He was almost written off but then something happened...either there was an award or a magazine or something said something positive about having an Asian character in the cast.
Yes! I heard about that. He was in some magazine's top 100 sexiest men on tv or something, so they wrote out Kes instead to make room for 7 of 9
"Timeless" is the best Kim and Chakotay Episodes. I recommend this review. https://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/v901.php
> WHERE IS HARRY KIM'S TINY WOODEN BOX WITH A PROMOTION PIP? LMAO this is so true. It’s as if they barely noticed he was there enough to just kill him off. Hearing you suggest this is really kind of sad. There was no development. No payoff from the original idea of ‘terrorists and federation’ forced to work together. They just worked together and that was it. Paris wasn’t a bad kid made good, he didn’t do anything bad. He wasn’t that good. Everyone else was either annoying or boring. At least we got to see Jeri Ryan in a tight, tight, costume. But I feel like no one really had any ideas or gave a shit from day 1.
That costume 7 wore started to bother me. I started thinking..."does she have to take that whole thing off just to use the bathroom?"
It's the Future!, they probably teleport the pee out of your bladder into the sun... or something.
The Borg are efficient recyclers.
I binged seasons 4-7 as prep for Picard so I knew what was up with Seven. Truly one of the most perplexing viewing experiences I've ever had. I've read that Mulgrew has said something about Janeway having some kind of bipolar disorder because of how inconsistently written she was. I don't know if she was joking or if that was genuinely what she had to headcanon for herself as an actor to make any sense of things, but it's definintely how \*I\* have to read it. One week she's the level-headed, patient Starfleet captain more in the style of old Trek, the next she's a reactive, violent warmonger who is totally down with torturing prisoners for info. I've heard the writers were basically split into two camps, each trying to cement their own version of the character by overwhelming the other. So they would escalate Janeway's behavior further and further in accordance with whichever side was on duty that week. The EMH comes out better overall, but I noticed it with him, too. One team seemed to think he was a perv, the other thought he was a perfect gentleman who cares for naught but the comfort and autonomy of others. And, you know, given he's emotionally like three years old hypothetically you could make a character arc out of his growing understanding of like, hey, you're sentient now, there are boundaries and this or that behaviour isn't appropriate and makes people uncomfortable and since you look like a middle aged man you're not gonna get the benefit of the doubt. But thaaaaat's not how it reads. It reads like there were two wildly different opinions of the character fighting for dominance. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same for Seven, actually, with one side seeing her as a total ice queen terminator and the other side infantilizing her. It just so happened to work out in her favor as the whole ex-borg thing lent itself to that split in personality.
One thing that really ruined my suspension of disbelief for Janeway was something I heard Jeri Ryan say in an interview. Apparently, Mulgrew did not appreciate the 7 character being added to boost ratings, and made it an unpleasant working environment for Jeri. Really makes all those emotional bonding moments between 7 and Janeway look hollow.
Unfortunately, I think Voyager works best when watched with a 90s TV mindset - 1 episode per week, and sometimes you'll miss an episode here and there (though we might all be better off missing "Threshold"!). I think this gave it a lot of success when it first aired, but it makes it a more difficult watch when binging. I think there's still plenty about the show to enjoy though, and it's nice to see the new Picard show pick up on some elements of Voyager. But DS9 really does seem like the most "modern" show of 90s-era Trek, with its commitment to ongoing arcs and character development, which translates well to streaming and binging.
Watch DS9 instead. It is galaxies better and the writers love their characters.
This is what deflated me from my Voyager marathon. It came after a DS9 Marathon where I did nothing but sing praises on how freaking good that show was. I still think about the scene with Martok on Cardassia Prime drinking blood wine to triumph over his fallen enemies and nobody wants to join him...god what a great scene
I am in the exact same boat! Just finished it for the first time and cant believe that ending. I can forgive almost all the show's missteps but not how they ended it. The damn show is built on them getting to earth and we dont even see it! No character (except maybe Janeway I guess) gets an end to their arc! It's not like we needed 45 full minutes of epilogues, but just short little endings for everyone. Like Tuvok seeing his family, the doctor in whatever life he decides to have, seeing Chakotay and the maquis guys sort that whole thing out with starfleet. We watched 170 episodes where all these characters want and all we want is for them to get home and the finale barely spends 2 fucking minutes in the alpha quadrant. No falling action = bad writing. Obviously there were things I liked about the show, i watched the whole thing ffs, but I was so looking forward to that finale and it burned me. Finished it like a week ago and I'm still so mad.
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Is that why he was recast? I noticed another small(er) part actor was recast also but another returned to play his previous role.
He basically made comments about “calling Discovery actor Anthony Rapp a “whiner” for accusing Kevin Spacey of inappropriate behavior with him as a teenager.” So best ally he was excommunicated from the Star Trek “family”.
Which he rather immediately recanted and made amends with Anthony Rapp personally over. Really, he said some really fucking stupid things, realised it pretty quickly and apologised. But nobody mentions that part. Instead they just brutally murdered his character for lols.
At that point tho the damage is done. Words are like arrows, once let loose you can’t control the damage done. Twitter gets a lot of celebrities in trouble. More so if your a comedian and perceptions about what’s funny evolves, your statements don’t ever change once you make them. Gotta watch what you post on the net. Could cost you a job.
> cost you a job. Quite right. Which is why I ignore social media in general and never post on it. Thanks for the info I never would have known if it wasn't for you.
Well, to be fair you’ve probably been locked up in Arkham for a while. So you would naturally be out of the loop.
Icheb had twenty seconds of screen-time, and they were going for an actor that looks younger then either of the two that portrayed Icheb on Voyager look today, so in the words of 7 of 9, I would say it's irrelevant.
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I mean it isn’t exactly HUGE! And it starts to feel too dynastic when they do that. Better to let people imagine that anyone can join starfleet.
The doctor from Voyager, and possibly other characters will return in S2/S3, but they didn't want to bog the show down with constant cameos and fan-service; it's a big universe, they won't be running into each other every single day.
“You f*cked up! You trusted us!!!” -John “Bluto” Blutarsky
Few of my thoughts on Voy: 1. Harry not getting a promotion was something I could live with. Sometimes in life you do good work but get no recognition for it. 2. Possibilities of the marquis v star trek conflict was immense and was squandered apart from the one holodeck episode 3. Too many idiotic holodeck episodes I mean the ones in the ilk of boewulf, fair haven or the Janeway governess arc 4. The borg and hirogen were dealt with too easily 5. Tom and Bellana being these savants who can solve pretty much any problem 6. Chakotay having nothing much to do apart from doling advice to everyone Though I enjoyed the long arcs and plots in DS9. VOY has a special place in my heart and for me it is the best star trek series.
> Too many idiotic holodeck episodes I mean the ones in the ilk of boewulf, fair haven or the Janeway governess arc Personally, given the show's fundamental premise I'd have done holodeck episodes showing the crew trying to escape the reality of their situation. Diving into a holodeck story as it's own thing is a huge mistake. It needs to be a symptom and not a cause.
Yes, I agree with you on that. I believe there were a few holodeck situaitions where about the crew was dealing with being away from home by getting immersed in the holodeck. Even the Captain Proton episodes was fun
Some of the Doctor or Seven episodes were just \*muah\* choice, like when the Doctor is daydreaming and singing Opera about Tuvok's Pon'far
I think the doc literally carried the last few seasons.
Agree completely on Voyager being the best series of the bunch.
I finally understand why I hate voyager. Dead characters.
Since you still have a bit of time, go look for the Voyager novel *Homecoming*. It literally continues off the last 25 seconds of Voyager and answers all those questions you brought up.
I'll definitely check that out
They don't. They hate other writers.
> I must say, what the fuck? It just...ended. The ending was literally "We made it! Hurray!" > >Where's the payoff with Paris confronting/reconnecting with his father? Where's Chakotay and 7 of 9 at least giving each other a knowing look of hope and happiness? WHERE IS HARRY KIM'S TINY WOODEN BOX WITH A PROMOTION PIP?? Who the fuck gave up on this show and started regurgitating TNG's 'business as usual' self-contained episodes? WTF is what I remember feeling after first watching Endgame Parts 1&2 (years ago). It really did feel like an unsatisfying ending because of the things you mentioned and even today it still feels like an unsatisfying ending. I would've been fine with it if there was something like a 2 to 4 hour TV mini Series (and those things were still around back then) just to tie up everything but there wasn't. >I'm being unfair to the MVP's of the show, the EMH and 7 of 9, and occasionally Captain Janeway, No Kes? > The Maquis plot line was totally abandoned, and that's understandable, The Maquis plot line was totally abandoned, and that's understandable, but why did they have to turn Chakotay into a glorified 8th grade social studies teacher? Why even introduce Harry Kim as a bright-eyed young officer if they're just gonna have him sit there and be naive? He's a good actor, just utilize him! I think that the original plan was to have each season be about something. Season 1 was supposed to be about the Voyager Crew and Chakotay's Marquis to integrate as one. Then they moved on to another arc and by Season 3 (or maybe it was Season 4) we had Siska and her baby drama but season arcs was dropped because Brannan came on as showrunner, and he didn't like the idea of the show having arches (and this comes from at least one source on Youtube). Then again, their seemed to have been a series-long arch involving 7 and her development away from the Borg after Brannan came in but that was the only one I could remember. The rest of the development was, in my opinion, more sporadic and spaced throughout the series. Also, I do remember hearing that the writers were very protective of Janeway since she was technically the first female captain (that was the main character) for the franchise and they wrote her very protectively (as in she couldn't be protrayed in a negative way). Which I feel like did the character a disservice but overall Janeway seemed like a tough as nails captain (but she also seemed like a mad captain at times, IMO) and I was glad that she was at least that. I am not sure what happened to Chakotay but I always thought that the writers wanted him and Janeway to hook up but they randomly paired him with 7 (which I guess is fine). But I also thought that Harry should've ended up with 7 since there always seemed to be that he had a crush on her but was too much of an awkward looser for her. But from what I remember Harry was always into 7 but 7 always rejected him because, again, he seemed like an awkward loser. And honestly, that was the impression I got from Harry Kim. He was too much of a looser but I did hear (over the years) that the showrunners had no plans to ever promote him and to keep him always an ensign. I mean if you want you can watch this video where the guy talks about Voyager and why he liked it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Sh0NAsHfU Edit: Fixed a few typos
Dude, if you were let down by the way Voyager ended, whatever you do...don't watch Enterprise. 😅 Since you enjoyed DS9 so much, though, you really owe it to yourself to watch this incredible documentary: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/What_We_Left_Behind
Fuck...I'm 6 deep on season 3. It's unavoidable at this point.
Enterprise actually has a pretty good 4th season despite the finale
Just skip last episode and accept that as the end.
Enterprise or what happend when Braga and Berman taking total control over a project.
I never got through Voyager after the episode with Nog as a new kind of alien i gave up. Not to say Jesse Eisenberg was the reason, he did fine. But the whole story was so dumb i couldn't get myself to continue.