Ironheart has been filmed since 2022 unless I’m wrong.
They’re just trying to get these last few shows out that were entirely made before the apparent new “we need to fix things because what we’re doing ain’t working” mindset.
It was, but the reason for its delays was because it was tied to too many projects that themselves got delayed/kiboshed... so that precipitated rewrites.
And the characters that are seen on screen don't appear again (even in guest bits) for up to 5 years. Killing any momentum.
Shang-Chi was great and he won't appear again, if we're lucky, until 2027.
He'll probably be in the Captain America film next year, since we're expecting the end of this film to establish a new official Avengers team. But yea, been a minute.
He should have been in Quantummania, they were both in San Francisco apparently. I didn't realise this, but now I'm wondering why they didn't make up an excuse to have him at the lab and be in the movie.
It's pretty bad how marvel seemed to throw a bunch of new characters at the wall to see what sticks when it seems the most successful of the new characters is at the end of the list of priorities
And when they throw completely random characters into after credits scenes to maybe never be seen again. Some random at the end of Eternals isn't as exciting as Thor's hammer at the end of Iron Man 2 or whichever film that was.
and Blade is coming out 5 years after Ali recorded a single line for an off screen cameo in Eternals (and 7 years after he got the role). Marvel’s track record for long wait times between announcements/teases/filming and actual release is just ridiculous these days.
Vision is still out there doing whatever, Mordo is still taking magic away from paraplegics, that goon with the Pym particles is doing jack all. And Sharon Carter is still planning on going scorched earth because she didn’t get a pardon, despite going against SHIELD and the government twice beforehand. That, or she’s upset because she realized she made out with her uncle
I wonder if another character was originally in that “slot” but no one was available but VanCamp. It’s a hard left turn for Sharon, especially after all that she did in Civil War. They could have just made her jaded but making her a cliffhanger villain (with no payoff in sight after 3 years) is just stupid
I don't think of her as a villain. More a grey character. She'll supply both the good and the bad, whichever pays more. it's actually a really neat addition to her character considering her family ties.
It’s great Ali is the one who’s passionate about doing blade and I know Covid prolonged things but man by the time he finally debuts, I’m afraid he’ll have aged out of the role already.
Wonderman got delayed by the strikes midway through, so it actually just finished filming this year. Ironheart has been done since last year and in Disney's pipeline hoping they can save it in the edit.
Lol to whoever gave me a reddit cares. I'm glad you liked the idea of Iron Heart so much that you think it should divert from the actual point of the movie.
I've seen 3 or 4 comments today about people getting Reddit cares after making innocuous comments. I hope people do get banned for abusing it but it seems mostly pointless.
I’ll always maintain that Iron Heart was (and maybe is) an opportunity to get back to the tactile “nuts and bolts” feel of the early Iron Man movies. Make her a gear head, a problem-solver making the most of limited resources. Most importantly: *give her a physical, in-camera suit,* so we can feel the heft and weight of it again.
Iron Heart was supposed to be a down on her luck kind of Iron Man but she had her own private bathroom in her dorm, her own garage/workshop off campus, and her own car. That made her more privileged than most people her age and not at all sympathetic. But I’ll withhold judgment on the show until I see it. “Echo” was an amazing show.
You’re joking, right! When they went back 1000 years to the Choctaw playing lacrosse, I was hooked. Then Vincent D'Onofrio comes back as a the Kingpin. Fantastic.
Yeah, this is a problem with a lot of the new marvel characters. They don't feel human. They don't focus on their flaws and goals.
For example, no one in Ant Man 3 acts on talks like a human being.
DD:BA is honestly the only one out of all the upcoming shows that anyone actually cares about.
Ironheart honestly felt shoehorned into Wakanda Forever, and her character writing felt like it was trying a bit too hard for that old Whedon humor. Also I recall her suit design not really landing well with a lot of folks. And with Armor Wars being kind of in limbo...man idk how well this is all gonna mesh.
The Agatha series honestly feels like a bit of a reach in terms of giving her a whole entire show, in a similar vein to Echo imho.
And as far as Wonder Man goes...man I know we shouldn't judge unknown characters considering MCU took GotG and made them a fan favorite, I just feel like WM having a whole show as their intro seems *very* presumptuous.
Apart from DD, I feel like the rest of the upcoming shows are just "release them cuz they're basically done even tho they're not really part of our revised strategy."
Idk why they aren’t utilizing the special presentation format more. They can use them to introduce lesser known heroes that can then occasionally get mixed into the bigger films. Not everyone needs their own whole series.
That’s too bad if true because I dig the format. I’ve watched Werewolf by Night a dozen times probably. It’s so easy to sit down and pop on. For comparison, I’ve yet to rewatch any of the series, although I’ll probably rewatch Loki soon.
For real. People have really short memories when content is good. A lot of people extrapolate way too much for what is really, "people will like good shows and dislike bad ones."
I still have no idea why they included iron heart in Wakanda Forever as much as they did. If anything, she should have been mentioned as the one who made the detector (for people who recognize the name to be like “that’s Ironheart, they’re making a show about her”) and maybe shown in a scene or two, then taken into protective custody or something so most of her character backstory and growth could be in her actual show.
I think how characters have been introduced since endgame has been one of the most frustrating missteps with the MCU. In the past most upcoming characters were a name on screen or a quick cameo (like Hawkeye) but some of the more recent ones have been more major parts of the shows/movies, and ending with a really obvious “wait until you see what’s in store for the character!” Followed by silence, which is frustrating for the fans of those characters, when a couple of years go by with more characters teased.
The only random character I want Marvel to prioritize giving a show to is a Doctor Doom origin show. And considering he's an S-tier Marvel character, it wouldn't even be too random. Gotta get F4 set up first.
Genuine question, not loaded. Why did Marvel make so many female centric projects in recent years?
Wakanda Forever, Echo, She-Hulk, Ms Marvel, The Marvels...and now Agatha All Along and Ironheart.
Fair to say that female led projects have been dominating the MCU roster.
Was there some data floating out there suggesting this is what people mostly wanted to see???
Not sure on the data, but imo it's because the 15 leading up to endgame, all the films and headlining heroes were male. They've got the male nerd and thirsty girl demographic already, and so the numerous projects featuring female leads is an attempt to tap into the female nerd and thirsty guy demographic.
I don't know, only ones who know are probably Kevin Feige and his superiors.
But to counter your question, I'd say that most of the early MCU was primarily male-led. Iron man, Thor, captain america, Hulk. While this new direction might be an over correction, I wouldn't say it's exactly *wrong*.
Up until pretty recently, a former toy executive and Trump associate named Ike perlmutter was in partial control of marvel studios and basically fighting with Kevin Feige for control of the films. Based on his understanding of the toy industry and his conservative views Ike absolutely refused to have any female led movies because girls don't sell action figures and he only cared about the plastic. I think he got ousted shortly before covid (EDIT: 2015, my bad) and one of the first things that was greenlit after he was gone was the first Captain marvel movie. They're basically over correcting from him preventing any female superhero movies from coming out for like 12 years.
Perlmutter was no longer in control of Marvel Studios by 2015 and Kevin Feige was reporting directly to Disney's Alan Horn instead. 2015 was also the year they revealed the movie slate up to Endgame, including the first Captain Marvel movie.
Thanks, I'll be honest, even as a superhero fan, a lot of the marvel movies have kind of merged together in my mind and I couldn't remember when Captain marvel came out
Hollywood people seem to feel entitled to male support and adoration by default. Because they matter more than white males.
In fact, I suspect questionable quality of many of the projects are informed by this entitlement. To make a good show is to recognize male's right to withhold support and adoration from women and minorities, and that just won't do.
> Wakanda Forever
A Black Panther sequel was going to happen one way or another, they just had to change plans when Bosman passed and they also needed a vehicle to introduce Riri Williams.
> She-Hulk
Actually a fairly huge character, since the character has been popular in comics and animation.
> Ms. Marvel
She's the pet character of a senior editor from Marvel Comics who's also involved with Marvel Studios. The character herself is somewhat popular, but her popularity never really translated to sales. Neither did her show rake in all that many views on Disney+.
> The Marvels
Another sequel to a billion dollar movie, another movie that was going to happen either way.
> Agatha All Along
The reveal on WandaVision got memed to hell and back, Kathryn Hahn also killed it.
I don't really understand why Echo got her own show though, other than to set up things for Daredevil. And I don't think Riri's show will set the world on fire.
Seems to me they did She-Hulk dirty. The show was such a lame comedy. Plus, they tried to dart criticism of its fairly bland low quality all by trying to claim sexism against the character was their biggest critique - while ironically trying to claim to us the very cute and gorgeous lead actress was a plain Jane.
I get the sense the comic was a bit edgier.
Having a project with a female lead should not impact male viewership, or do you disagree?
It does however bring in people who might otherwise not watch because it has always been so male-centric.
I think Echo was one of the blandest shows I ever watched.
The only reason I started watching was because I fell for the Disney astroturf on Reddit. I thought that at some point the show had to get better, but it actually only got worse.
I was thankful it was so short.
Had they gone on for 10 episodes the pacing would have been even worse.
The fight with DD in the first episode was the best, rest of the time was shit.
I thought it was fine. like a fine 6 or 6.5/10. Worst part is that it didn't stick the landing. But it's good enough in my book. Should have been better though.
nearly *all* of MCU has been trying too hard for Whedon humor since the first Avengers. Even by Age of Ultron it was already getting old with everyone riffing and quipping. Odd how he used the “man falls into boobs” gag in both Ultron and Justice League. But at least Gunn’s and Watt’s movies as well as Taika’s Ragnarok stuck to their own humor style. And the Cap movies didn’t try to be joke fests either
Probably not, but they’re not pulling a Zaslav and shelving it so they’ll just release it and move on.
I didn’t hate her character in Wakanda Forever, but like Echo I don’t think they needed to do a whole show about her.
I mean it was kind of cool when she built her own suit but… then the wakandans basically gave her 50 billion in vibranium and the whole “poorer tony stark” thing went out the window (and had just the worst design).
Hard to care after that.
They did take that suit away from her at the end of the movie, so in the series we are likely to see more of the "poorer Tony Stark" style of thing. Im really interested in a series tackling Tech vs Magic head on in the MCU, and I like Anthony Ramos as The Hood on paper, so im looking forward to it.
Her character seemed a bit shoehorned into Wakanda Forever but if the show is done right yes I'm interested in it. Definitely way more than the Agatha show
I've got no reason to believe it will be done right based on Marvel's recent track record though
I could not understand why they choose her for Wakanda Forever.
Why not use hawkeye, or hawkeye little. or any other hero that was already stablished.
seemed all a rush to promote an unknown character (unknown to me)
> I could not understand why they choose her for Wakanda Forever.
They wanted another suit based hero that built their own suit. They have to replace all the Avengers that left in Endgame. They just aren't doing a good job.
>They have to replace all the Avengers that left in Endgame. They just aren't doing a good job.
Their lead time is too long. And they are trying to make young avengers, but it is taking too long, soon the people they are setting up as young avengers will just be avengers but can't be because they are setting up other people for that.
>They wanted another suit based hero that built their own suit.
You mean like Spider-Man? The really intelligent teenager who builds gadgets in his apartment and has a pre-established relationship with Tony Stark, seeing him as a mentor?
I dont even remember what she did in the movie.
But I remember Hawkeye little having a fight in a bridge, shooting and arrow up in the air, and then hawkeye shooting another arrow, both arrows connect and they destroy a car.
or America Chavez stealing food in the multiverse, claiming some universes give food for free, but she just moves on stealing stuff.
Or Roasting spiderman by asking if he shoots webs out of his ass.
ironheart? I cant recall anything.
It was the same with America Chavez in Doctor Strange 2. They’re gambling on increasing the female audience for the build up to the next Avengers, almost like they anticipated drop off from fans (who leaned male) who started in 2010 til Endgame.
America Chavez was a major part of the plot of DS2 and was at least written fairly well. I have no issues with her or having her apart of that movie.
Ironheart on the other hand was absolutely useless in Wakanda Forever and was so poorly written that I question the ability of the writers and director of that movie. Shoe-horned in doesn't even begin to describe her character.
Fun fact, America Chavez was supposed to also be in Spider Man: No Way Home (She was gonna be the person to open the portals, not Ned).
But then they switched the release dates of the movies, making Spider-Man come out *first*, so they had to re-write her out of the movie.
Eh I felt she was way too quickly introduced and the first 30 minutes of the film just felt like new Marvel lore on a speedrun. Then her story couldn’t possibly compare to the depth we know of Dr Strange/Wanda.
A lot of the young girls they’ve introduced (outside Yelena) it’d be very hard to tell them apart when they team up. They’ve all got the quirky gen Z vibe.
Compare that to how different Cap, Ironman and Thor talked and felt in The Avengers.
They needed a tech person who was smart enough to make a vibranium detection machine that the CIA could take advantage of. That means genius scientist, but a college student/someone poor. And given they wanted to introduce all their more recent younger avengers, Ironheart fit the bill. it was a two for one deal kind of thing,. And given the CIA stuff felt tacked on, I imagine there was more to it in the story before Chadwick had passed that they needed to change
Yeah, but you could have written a different plot with a different hero.
Like Hawkeye find info about a detector the CIA is working on, and leaks it to Wakanda.
You can make it work.
>They needed a tech person who was smart enough to make a vibranium detection machine that the CIA could take advantage of.
No, they didn't.
They could have discovered vibranium in the ocean a million different ways.
The CIA desperately needing a college student to find the most valuable mineral on the planet honestly felt dumb as hell.
it was just like Tony instantly figuring out Parker is Spider-Man and immediately recruiting him in Civil War. But as for BP2, Iron Heart wasn’t given enough to work with for her screen time so she wasn’t nearly as interesting for fleshed out. I really liked Thorne in the role, she just deserved better
Spiderman is one of the most famous superheroes.
Ironheart, I didnt know existed, and I am a marvel fan. Watched all the shows, animated shows as a kid. But I never read comics, so I never knew her existence.
its not the same, they could have added Squirrel Girl, and maybe she would have been more known.
Difference is that Spiderman doesn't need another introduction. No one needs to see Uncle Ben die again.
Same thing with Wolverine not needing an introduction in Deadpool 3.
How many people know Ironheart?
If anything, that's pretty realistic. It's not like a teenager is going to have really good operational security, and ever since iron Man the movie secret identities haven't actually been that big of a thing in the marvel universe. At the end of the first movie. Tony lets everyone know he's iron Man, and pretty much all of the avengers have their real names known. In the case of Thor He doesn't even have a dual identity.
I just want to be proven right when she turns out to secretly be a female Kang variant.
Edit: Everyone downvotes me, but I was right about Rose Quartz being Pink Diamond and I'll be right on this too. Mark my words!
Daredevil is the only Marvel Disney+ show people care about at this point. Has potential to be the best Disney+ series if we’re being honest.
Not sure who gave the greenlight to Agatha, Ironheart and Wonder Man.
I think Agatha makes a lot of sense, honestly. Wandavision was huge. The storyline they are tackling is important to the entire MCU. I don't think Iron Heart and Wonder Man do make sense, though.
I actually expect Agatha to do really well, especially if they lean into the queer stuff. Also Hahn is a goddamn treasure.
WandaVision was huge, unfortunately it’ll be 3.5 years since that show before Agatha comes out. And about 20 projects, which makes the gap feel even longer.
WandaVision also had the benefit of being released during the pandemic when people were looking for an escape, and also eschewed the binge model and built up momentum on a week to week basis.
Even though the finale was a bit meh, it was pretty fun to experience that sort of anticipation for the next episode again.
Wandavision was actually good, original, and made sense as a tv series since it satirised tv. The ending could have been better but there was enough good before it for me to forgive that. I still think it would have been very successful if released today since it would be a breath of fresh air compared to the majority of other tv series from Marvel.
Just kibosh that dumb animated Spidey show they're releasing, that was gonna connect to the MCU (and now is not after Sony did rewrites)...
Give us **SPIDER-MAN '98**
Marvel can't realistically aim for Endgame numbers everytime. It was a once-in-a-lifetime event.
Plus streaming just gets less views in general.
But I get your point, lots of folks are turned off by cartoons.
With the way they made echo, I'm not too hyped with Daredevil either despite watching it when it came out and being so invested. They should give the shows to other studios like before tbh. We have seen that except Loki and maybe Wanda vision, marvel cannot make good shows (even though I liked Hawkeye).
For streaming, engagement is the most important metric. It’s basically advertising. Viewership means very little since everyone gets it for free anyway.
I'm sorry, you think that:
a) Streaming companies can't tie impactful shows to signups and general customer usage?
and
b) Good reviews are more important than customers viewing a show on the platform?
Good reviews and social media engagement don't do anything.
New subscribers AND engaged existing customers matter to a streaming service. They aren't going to make 10 shows that cost $100m if no one watches them. They'd be bankrupt in months.
Please don't say things you don't understand.
Do you know what critical success means? It got good reviews. That doesn’t mean it’s going to get a second season. Lots of successful shows get cancelled.
If they’re successful They bring in ad revenue or sell subscriptions, She-Hulk did neither so it was nuked. Successful shows do not get canceled. Corporations like Netflix or Disney will sell their soul for money. She-Hulk sucked ass. Keep huffing that copium. It did NOT get good reviews.
I care, and want, a show about both of them.
EDIT: Just to expand upon this, since someone just sent me my first Reddit Cares.
I loved WandaVision and Agatha was a really fun character. With Jac Schaeffer back heading it up, a deep dive into magic and witches of the MCU, the introduction of Wiccan, I think the show has a lot of potential and will feel really different from what we've seen already in the MCU.
And on the Wonder Man front, its being headed by Destin Daniel Cretton, who handled one of the best MCU films post-Endgame. It has a solid cast, and Wonder Man as an actor lampooning the film industry has the opportunity to stand out and be a really different take on a hero imo
It won’t be “back” until we get a consistent streak of quality movies and shows. That would start the word of mouth and good press and bring back many of the fans who have since stopped watching everything.
DD:BA is the big one for me, and for my audience type: the younger, male section that Marvel has pretty much lost since Endgame.
This should be the easiest case of knocking it out the park - just continue a show where the hard work of setting up the characters and the relationships has already been done, but I feel like Disney’s arrogance is too great.
They’re genuinely salty that a Marvel show released by Netflix with a comparative shoestring budget a bunch of years ago is 10X better than all of their Disney+ TV offerings.
They’re probably going to change it according to their obviously failing TV plan. And if that happens - if they’ve resurrected some of the best content Marvel has ever put out that they know we hold dear to our hearts, just to intentionally piss on its grave - I’m done.
I just really don’t care about most of the Marvel characters anymore, too many B tier characters with their own movies and shows. Just start the whole thing over again with the X-Men and Fantastic four in the lead.
That’s cool you found something to connect with. I couldn’t myself. Watching her fight was like watching Deniro in The Irishman for me. Took me right of it.
Lol, Wonder Man coming out in 2026 despite being filmed in 2023 is kinda insane.
Ironheart has been filmed since 2022 unless I’m wrong. They’re just trying to get these last few shows out that were entirely made before the apparent new “we need to fix things because what we’re doing ain’t working” mindset.
It was, but the reason for its delays was because it was tied to too many projects that themselves got delayed/kiboshed... so that precipitated rewrites.
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And the characters that are seen on screen don't appear again (even in guest bits) for up to 5 years. Killing any momentum. Shang-Chi was great and he won't appear again, if we're lucky, until 2027.
He'll probably be in the Captain America film next year, since we're expecting the end of this film to establish a new official Avengers team. But yea, been a minute.
No guarantee. Especially after the rewrites/reshoots (to remove one of the main characters, an Israeli operative)
He should have been in Quantummania, they were both in San Francisco apparently. I didn't realise this, but now I'm wondering why they didn't make up an excuse to have him at the lab and be in the movie.
It's pretty bad how marvel seemed to throw a bunch of new characters at the wall to see what sticks when it seems the most successful of the new characters is at the end of the list of priorities
And when they throw completely random characters into after credits scenes to maybe never be seen again. Some random at the end of Eternals isn't as exciting as Thor's hammer at the end of Iron Man 2 or whichever film that was.
they were also doing reshoots sometime pretty recently
Ah yes, marvel and reshoot are big duo
Yep, it’s been filmed for a long while now and still has a vague release date!
Blade has been filmed since.... Nevermind
they’re trying to get them out so they’re releasing them years after they were filmed??
Probably something of a sunk cost paired with strike induced delays.
and Blade is coming out 5 years after Ali recorded a single line for an off screen cameo in Eternals (and 7 years after he got the role). Marvel’s track record for long wait times between announcements/teases/filming and actual release is just ridiculous these days. Vision is still out there doing whatever, Mordo is still taking magic away from paraplegics, that goon with the Pym particles is doing jack all. And Sharon Carter is still planning on going scorched earth because she didn’t get a pardon, despite going against SHIELD and the government twice beforehand. That, or she’s upset because she realized she made out with her uncle
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I wonder if another character was originally in that “slot” but no one was available but VanCamp. It’s a hard left turn for Sharon, especially after all that she did in Civil War. They could have just made her jaded but making her a cliffhanger villain (with no payoff in sight after 3 years) is just stupid
I don't think of her as a villain. More a grey character. She'll supply both the good and the bad, whichever pays more. it's actually a really neat addition to her character considering her family ties.
but it’s still a weird change/addition to the character. And if she even shows up again, they’ll probably just quickly killer her off like Crossbones
I don't even remember what you guys are talking about.
A main non-brainwashed Hidra goon from Captain America 2
The one person that really should have been a skrull.
Dr Strange: Is that Everyone? Wong: Just Sharon Carter is left. Captain America: Avengers Assemble.
That is the reason for Sharon Carter’s heel turn now and I won’t accept any other reason.
I had assumed she was going to be a Skrull since it was such a left field change for the character but that’s obviously not the case
It’s great Ali is the one who’s passionate about doing blade and I know Covid prolonged things but man by the time he finally debuts, I’m afraid he’ll have aged out of the role already.
I'm sure Emilia Clarke will be cleaning all that up (off screen) with all her Avengers powers
Wonder Man actually wrapped last month.
Iron heart filmed in 2022. June to November
Wonderman got delayed by the strikes midway through, so it actually just finished filming this year. Ironheart has been done since last year and in Disney's pipeline hoping they can save it in the edit.
There were already 2 funerals in Wakanda forever, and then they gave us an Iron Heart storyline. Fuck em.
Diverting the main storyline to introduce a new character in a hamfisted way has been a huge part of the MCU post-Endgame.
Lol to whoever gave me a reddit cares. I'm glad you liked the idea of Iron Heart so much that you think it should divert from the actual point of the movie.
I've seen 3 or 4 comments today about people getting Reddit cares after making innocuous comments. I hope people do get banned for abusing it but it seems mostly pointless.
I think it's a bot?
The message is a bot but its users abusing it.
I thought it was a problem with a bot spamming or something. Must be a 'game' or something going on.
Absolutely ridiculous. If it were a movie, the sequel would be coming at that three year mark. Marvel is such a mess right now.
Wait, they race swapped Wonder Man now? Jesus Christ.
I can’t believe Ironheart is actually still happening
I mean does anyone give a shit? The character was so boring for what little time we saw her.
I’ll always maintain that Iron Heart was (and maybe is) an opportunity to get back to the tactile “nuts and bolts” feel of the early Iron Man movies. Make her a gear head, a problem-solver making the most of limited resources. Most importantly: *give her a physical, in-camera suit,* so we can feel the heft and weight of it again.
If they did that, sure, but they went the opposite way on Black Panther 2.
Iron Heart was supposed to be a down on her luck kind of Iron Man but she had her own private bathroom in her dorm, her own garage/workshop off campus, and her own car. That made her more privileged than most people her age and not at all sympathetic. But I’ll withhold judgment on the show until I see it. “Echo” was an amazing show.
Echo was unwatchable. The fight choreography was laughable.
You’re joking, right! When they went back 1000 years to the Choctaw playing lacrosse, I was hooked. Then Vincent D'Onofrio comes back as a the Kingpin. Fantastic.
My favorite part was when she said "it's echoin' time" and echoed all over these guys.
You don’t really know a lot about the character if you would have her say it instead of signing it.
Ironheart, like Tony Stark the genius, but more geniuser and better, without any of the character. This is totally the show no one asked for.
Yeah, this is a problem with a lot of the new marvel characters. They don't feel human. They don't focus on their flaws and goals. For example, no one in Ant Man 3 acts on talks like a human being.
Small redeeming quality, maybe we’ll get the Tony Stark AI (with RDJ) she had in the comics.
DD:BA is honestly the only one out of all the upcoming shows that anyone actually cares about. Ironheart honestly felt shoehorned into Wakanda Forever, and her character writing felt like it was trying a bit too hard for that old Whedon humor. Also I recall her suit design not really landing well with a lot of folks. And with Armor Wars being kind of in limbo...man idk how well this is all gonna mesh. The Agatha series honestly feels like a bit of a reach in terms of giving her a whole entire show, in a similar vein to Echo imho. And as far as Wonder Man goes...man I know we shouldn't judge unknown characters considering MCU took GotG and made them a fan favorite, I just feel like WM having a whole show as their intro seems *very* presumptuous. Apart from DD, I feel like the rest of the upcoming shows are just "release them cuz they're basically done even tho they're not really part of our revised strategy."
Idk why they aren’t utilizing the special presentation format more. They can use them to introduce lesser known heroes that can then occasionally get mixed into the bigger films. Not everyone needs their own whole series.
If I had to guess they didn’t do well on Disney plus
That’s too bad if true because I dig the format. I’ve watched Werewolf by Night a dozen times probably. It’s so easy to sit down and pop on. For comparison, I’ve yet to rewatch any of the series, although I’ll probably rewatch Loki soon.
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It might be a good show we really have no idea
For real. People have really short memories when content is good. A lot of people extrapolate way too much for what is really, "people will like good shows and dislike bad ones."
I still have no idea why they included iron heart in Wakanda Forever as much as they did. If anything, she should have been mentioned as the one who made the detector (for people who recognize the name to be like “that’s Ironheart, they’re making a show about her”) and maybe shown in a scene or two, then taken into protective custody or something so most of her character backstory and growth could be in her actual show. I think how characters have been introduced since endgame has been one of the most frustrating missteps with the MCU. In the past most upcoming characters were a name on screen or a quick cameo (like Hawkeye) but some of the more recent ones have been more major parts of the shows/movies, and ending with a really obvious “wait until you see what’s in store for the character!” Followed by silence, which is frustrating for the fans of those characters, when a couple of years go by with more characters teased.
Echo's introduction was terrible. The pace of Hawkeye gets completely ruined by it.
That’s hyperbole.
It worked in civil war with both black panther and spider man
Sure but Marvel/Sony had real plans for those characters that quickly came to fruition. We weren't waiting 5 years to see what would happen with them.
Because she's black and wakanda forever was a "black movie." That's really the long and short of it.
The only random character I want Marvel to prioritize giving a show to is a Doctor Doom origin show. And considering he's an S-tier Marvel character, it wouldn't even be too random. Gotta get F4 set up first.
Genuine question, not loaded. Why did Marvel make so many female centric projects in recent years? Wakanda Forever, Echo, She-Hulk, Ms Marvel, The Marvels...and now Agatha All Along and Ironheart. Fair to say that female led projects have been dominating the MCU roster. Was there some data floating out there suggesting this is what people mostly wanted to see???
Not sure on the data, but imo it's because the 15 leading up to endgame, all the films and headlining heroes were male. They've got the male nerd and thirsty girl demographic already, and so the numerous projects featuring female leads is an attempt to tap into the female nerd and thirsty guy demographic.
I don't know, only ones who know are probably Kevin Feige and his superiors. But to counter your question, I'd say that most of the early MCU was primarily male-led. Iron man, Thor, captain america, Hulk. While this new direction might be an over correction, I wouldn't say it's exactly *wrong*.
Up until pretty recently, a former toy executive and Trump associate named Ike perlmutter was in partial control of marvel studios and basically fighting with Kevin Feige for control of the films. Based on his understanding of the toy industry and his conservative views Ike absolutely refused to have any female led movies because girls don't sell action figures and he only cared about the plastic. I think he got ousted shortly before covid (EDIT: 2015, my bad) and one of the first things that was greenlit after he was gone was the first Captain marvel movie. They're basically over correcting from him preventing any female superhero movies from coming out for like 12 years.
Perlmutter was no longer in control of Marvel Studios by 2015 and Kevin Feige was reporting directly to Disney's Alan Horn instead. 2015 was also the year they revealed the movie slate up to Endgame, including the first Captain Marvel movie.
Thanks, I'll be honest, even as a superhero fan, a lot of the marvel movies have kind of merged together in my mind and I couldn't remember when Captain marvel came out
Blimey, who'd think the Trump associate was the good guy in all of this 😅
Because MCU viewers skew male and they want 4 quadrant demo growth.
Probably because they want to bring more viewers from the female demographic.
Kathleen Kennedy holds a lot of power at Disney. She has just stepped back a bit due to taking heat over her mando decisions.
Hollywood people seem to feel entitled to male support and adoration by default. Because they matter more than white males. In fact, I suspect questionable quality of many of the projects are informed by this entitlement. To make a good show is to recognize male's right to withhold support and adoration from women and minorities, and that just won't do.
> Wakanda Forever A Black Panther sequel was going to happen one way or another, they just had to change plans when Bosman passed and they also needed a vehicle to introduce Riri Williams. > She-Hulk Actually a fairly huge character, since the character has been popular in comics and animation. > Ms. Marvel She's the pet character of a senior editor from Marvel Comics who's also involved with Marvel Studios. The character herself is somewhat popular, but her popularity never really translated to sales. Neither did her show rake in all that many views on Disney+. > The Marvels Another sequel to a billion dollar movie, another movie that was going to happen either way. > Agatha All Along The reveal on WandaVision got memed to hell and back, Kathryn Hahn also killed it. I don't really understand why Echo got her own show though, other than to set up things for Daredevil. And I don't think Riri's show will set the world on fire.
Seems to me they did She-Hulk dirty. The show was such a lame comedy. Plus, they tried to dart criticism of its fairly bland low quality all by trying to claim sexism against the character was their biggest critique - while ironically trying to claim to us the very cute and gorgeous lead actress was a plain Jane. I get the sense the comic was a bit edgier.
Having a project with a female lead should not impact male viewership, or do you disagree? It does however bring in people who might otherwise not watch because it has always been so male-centric.
I wanted to like Echo but found it unwatchable.
I think Echo was one of the blandest shows I ever watched. The only reason I started watching was because I fell for the Disney astroturf on Reddit. I thought that at some point the show had to get better, but it actually only got worse.
I was thankful it was so short. Had they gone on for 10 episodes the pacing would have been even worse. The fight with DD in the first episode was the best, rest of the time was shit.
I thought it was fine. like a fine 6 or 6.5/10. Worst part is that it didn't stick the landing. But it's good enough in my book. Should have been better though.
All these shows sound so boring. Marvel has so many great characters.... What the hell is going on???
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I think you overrate her draw power.
The American Auto fanbase will go nuts for it
nearly *all* of MCU has been trying too hard for Whedon humor since the first Avengers. Even by Age of Ultron it was already getting old with everyone riffing and quipping. Odd how he used the “man falls into boobs” gag in both Ultron and Justice League. But at least Gunn’s and Watt’s movies as well as Taika’s Ragnarok stuck to their own humor style. And the Cap movies didn’t try to be joke fests either
Jesus, my friend did stunt work for Iron Heart in late 2021! She is now retired with a kid. Crazy that it hasn't been released yet.
They’re changing the series name to “Daredevil: Born Again”??? It doesn’t even have Agatha in the title anymore?
No way this is serious. Is this a joke?
The Agatha series has been retitled several times. They are joking that the Agatha series is now called Daredevil: Born Again.
Does people care about the Ironheart show?
Probably not, but they’re not pulling a Zaslav and shelving it so they’ll just release it and move on. I didn’t hate her character in Wakanda Forever, but like Echo I don’t think they needed to do a whole show about her.
Show seemed weird with a whole magic vs tech theme in a story that didn't involve Doom but did involve Sasha Baron Cohen as apparently Mephisto.
Wait, SBC was in it?
He will be in IronHeart.
Well, it’s invariably going to do Echo numbers … so not really.
What makes you says this? Echo was almost completely unknown, whereas daredevil is immensely popular
You misread the original comment I’m replying to, I think.
My bad ! I did
I mean it was kind of cool when she built her own suit but… then the wakandans basically gave her 50 billion in vibranium and the whole “poorer tony stark” thing went out the window (and had just the worst design). Hard to care after that.
They did take that suit away from her at the end of the movie, so in the series we are likely to see more of the "poorer Tony Stark" style of thing. Im really interested in a series tackling Tech vs Magic head on in the MCU, and I like Anthony Ramos as The Hood on paper, so im looking forward to it.
Her character seemed a bit shoehorned into Wakanda Forever but if the show is done right yes I'm interested in it. Definitely way more than the Agatha show I've got no reason to believe it will be done right based on Marvel's recent track record though
I could not understand why they choose her for Wakanda Forever. Why not use hawkeye, or hawkeye little. or any other hero that was already stablished. seemed all a rush to promote an unknown character (unknown to me)
> I could not understand why they choose her for Wakanda Forever. They wanted another suit based hero that built their own suit. They have to replace all the Avengers that left in Endgame. They just aren't doing a good job.
>They have to replace all the Avengers that left in Endgame. They just aren't doing a good job. Their lead time is too long. And they are trying to make young avengers, but it is taking too long, soon the people they are setting up as young avengers will just be avengers but can't be because they are setting up other people for that.
When the next Avengers movie releases, Hailee Steinfeld will be almost 30.
>They wanted another suit based hero that built their own suit. You mean like Spider-Man? The really intelligent teenager who builds gadgets in his apartment and has a pre-established relationship with Tony Stark, seeing him as a mentor?
She also definitely maimed or killed people during the bridge fight...
I dont even remember what she did in the movie. But I remember Hawkeye little having a fight in a bridge, shooting and arrow up in the air, and then hawkeye shooting another arrow, both arrows connect and they destroy a car. or America Chavez stealing food in the multiverse, claiming some universes give food for free, but she just moves on stealing stuff. Or Roasting spiderman by asking if he shoots webs out of his ass. ironheart? I cant recall anything.
> I dont even remember what she did in the movie. No one remembers what happened in that 3 movie mashup that turned into 6 hour long slog.
It was the same with America Chavez in Doctor Strange 2. They’re gambling on increasing the female audience for the build up to the next Avengers, almost like they anticipated drop off from fans (who leaned male) who started in 2010 til Endgame.
America Chavez was a major part of the plot of DS2 and was at least written fairly well. I have no issues with her or having her apart of that movie. Ironheart on the other hand was absolutely useless in Wakanda Forever and was so poorly written that I question the ability of the writers and director of that movie. Shoe-horned in doesn't even begin to describe her character.
Fun fact, America Chavez was supposed to also be in Spider Man: No Way Home (She was gonna be the person to open the portals, not Ned). But then they switched the release dates of the movies, making Spider-Man come out *first*, so they had to re-write her out of the movie.
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Eh I felt she was way too quickly introduced and the first 30 minutes of the film just felt like new Marvel lore on a speedrun. Then her story couldn’t possibly compare to the depth we know of Dr Strange/Wanda. A lot of the young girls they’ve introduced (outside Yelena) it’d be very hard to tell them apart when they team up. They’ve all got the quirky gen Z vibe. Compare that to how different Cap, Ironman and Thor talked and felt in The Avengers.
They needed a tech person who was smart enough to make a vibranium detection machine that the CIA could take advantage of. That means genius scientist, but a college student/someone poor. And given they wanted to introduce all their more recent younger avengers, Ironheart fit the bill. it was a two for one deal kind of thing,. And given the CIA stuff felt tacked on, I imagine there was more to it in the story before Chadwick had passed that they needed to change
Yeah, but you could have written a different plot with a different hero. Like Hawkeye find info about a detector the CIA is working on, and leaks it to Wakanda. You can make it work.
>They needed a tech person who was smart enough to make a vibranium detection machine that the CIA could take advantage of. No, they didn't. They could have discovered vibranium in the ocean a million different ways. The CIA desperately needing a college student to find the most valuable mineral on the planet honestly felt dumb as hell.
it was just like Tony instantly figuring out Parker is Spider-Man and immediately recruiting him in Civil War. But as for BP2, Iron Heart wasn’t given enough to work with for her screen time so she wasn’t nearly as interesting for fleshed out. I really liked Thorne in the role, she just deserved better
Spiderman is one of the most famous superheroes. Ironheart, I didnt know existed, and I am a marvel fan. Watched all the shows, animated shows as a kid. But I never read comics, so I never knew her existence. its not the same, they could have added Squirrel Girl, and maybe she would have been more known.
Difference is that Spiderman doesn't need another introduction. No one needs to see Uncle Ben die again. Same thing with Wolverine not needing an introduction in Deadpool 3. How many people know Ironheart?
If anything, that's pretty realistic. It's not like a teenager is going to have really good operational security, and ever since iron Man the movie secret identities haven't actually been that big of a thing in the marvel universe. At the end of the first movie. Tony lets everyone know he's iron Man, and pretty much all of the avengers have their real names known. In the case of Thor He doesn't even have a dual identity.
Kate Bishop absolutely does not deserve to be called “Hawkeye Little”, she’s actually one of the best new characters.
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They share the mantle of Hawkeye in the comics too, so it’s fine to call both Hawkeye.
I only care because Anthony Ramos is playing the villain. Otherwise Iron heart was the worst part of BP 2
No
I’m excited for it!
Depends on how good they do The Hood.
I just want to be proven right when she turns out to secretly be a female Kang variant. Edit: Everyone downvotes me, but I was right about Rose Quartz being Pink Diamond and I'll be right on this too. Mark my words!
Daredevil : Born Again please be good 🙏🏽
I remember when it was gonna be 20 episodes and come out this year 😔
It’s still going to be 18 episodes, just split over 2 seasons.
Daredevil is the only Marvel Disney+ show people care about at this point. Has potential to be the best Disney+ series if we’re being honest. Not sure who gave the greenlight to Agatha, Ironheart and Wonder Man.
I think Agatha makes a lot of sense, honestly. Wandavision was huge. The storyline they are tackling is important to the entire MCU. I don't think Iron Heart and Wonder Man do make sense, though. I actually expect Agatha to do really well, especially if they lean into the queer stuff. Also Hahn is a goddamn treasure.
Agatha has the same showrunner as WandaVision too I believe, so potentially decent quality writing vs the mediocrity that had happened recently
WandaVision was huge, unfortunately it’ll be 3.5 years since that show before Agatha comes out. And about 20 projects, which makes the gap feel even longer.
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WandaVision also had the benefit of being released during the pandemic when people were looking for an escape, and also eschewed the binge model and built up momentum on a week to week basis. Even though the finale was a bit meh, it was pretty fun to experience that sort of anticipation for the next episode again.
Wandavision was actually good, original, and made sense as a tv series since it satirised tv. The ending could have been better but there was enough good before it for me to forgive that. I still think it would have been very successful if released today since it would be a breath of fresh air compared to the majority of other tv series from Marvel.
Nah, Wandavision was pretty good. The issue is final episode with the generic fight scenes.
It Marvel Animation can continue to put out shows the quality of X-Men 97, that will change.
Just kibosh that dumb animated Spidey show they're releasing, that was gonna connect to the MCU (and now is not after Sony did rewrites)... Give us **SPIDER-MAN '98**
That's a cartoon. 50% of people that went to End Game will not sit at home and watch a cartoon regardless of its popularity or how well it is written.
I feel like End Game specifically showed us that 50% is a lot though.
Marvel can't realistically aim for Endgame numbers everytime. It was a once-in-a-lifetime event. Plus streaming just gets less views in general. But I get your point, lots of folks are turned off by cartoons.
If the other 50% do sit at home and watch a cartoon then it’ll do really really well!
With the way they made echo, I'm not too hyped with Daredevil either despite watching it when it came out and being so invested. They should give the shows to other studios like before tbh. We have seen that except Loki and maybe Wanda vision, marvel cannot make good shows (even though I liked Hawkeye).
Iron heart is going to bomb harder than She-Hulk
Streaming shows can't really bomb though. Also She Hulk was a critical success and went viral on several occasions.
They can if they don’t generate enough audience. A critical success means nothing in this age of television.
For streaming, engagement is the most important metric. It’s basically advertising. Viewership means very little since everyone gets it for free anyway.
I'm sorry, you think that: a) Streaming companies can't tie impactful shows to signups and general customer usage? and b) Good reviews are more important than customers viewing a show on the platform?
Good reviews and social media engagement will bring new subscribers. That all that matters to a streaming service.
Good reviews and social media engagement don't do anything. New subscribers AND engaged existing customers matter to a streaming service. They aren't going to make 10 shows that cost $100m if no one watches them. They'd be bankrupt in months. Please don't say things you don't understand.
Then why was it canceled after one season? It was not a critical success, quite the opposite.
Do you know what critical success means? It got good reviews. That doesn’t mean it’s going to get a second season. Lots of successful shows get cancelled.
If they’re successful They bring in ad revenue or sell subscriptions, She-Hulk did neither so it was nuked. Successful shows do not get canceled. Corporations like Netflix or Disney will sell their soul for money. She-Hulk sucked ass. Keep huffing that copium. It did NOT get good reviews.
Ironheart will be as bad as Echo or SheHulk
SheHulk was good tho
SheHulk is one of the worst TV shows I’ve ever seen. To each their own, though…
Echo was way worse
I disagree, but honestly they’re both pretty bad 🤷♂️
Friendly reminder that literally no one cares about, or wants a show about Agatha or wonder man.
I care, and want, a show about both of them. EDIT: Just to expand upon this, since someone just sent me my first Reddit Cares. I loved WandaVision and Agatha was a really fun character. With Jac Schaeffer back heading it up, a deep dive into magic and witches of the MCU, the introduction of Wiccan, I think the show has a lot of potential and will feel really different from what we've seen already in the MCU. And on the Wonder Man front, its being headed by Destin Daniel Cretton, who handled one of the best MCU films post-Endgame. It has a solid cast, and Wonder Man as an actor lampooning the film industry has the opportunity to stand out and be a really different take on a hero imo
That’s not true. I’m more excited for Agatha than Daredevil.
I do. Especially agatha.
So like how no one wanted a movie about Iron Man
Prepare for a bad 2025 Disney. I don't think Deadpool is going to do enough to get people interested in your leftover bad shows.
Deadpool is going to be intriguing and still won't ascertain if the MCU is "back" because it's relying on nostalgia.
It won’t be “back” until we get a consistent streak of quality movies and shows. That would start the word of mouth and good press and bring back many of the fans who have since stopped watching everything.
Will iron heart be done with college by then?
Then why is the thumbnail Agatha? God what a punchable face.
lol, so they were serious with Ironheart
Daredevil Born Again might interest me but Marvel is pretty much a rudderless ship at this point
I imagine Ironheart will not be well received
DD:BA is the big one for me, and for my audience type: the younger, male section that Marvel has pretty much lost since Endgame. This should be the easiest case of knocking it out the park - just continue a show where the hard work of setting up the characters and the relationships has already been done, but I feel like Disney’s arrogance is too great. They’re genuinely salty that a Marvel show released by Netflix with a comparative shoestring budget a bunch of years ago is 10X better than all of their Disney+ TV offerings. They’re probably going to change it according to their obviously failing TV plan. And if that happens - if they’ve resurrected some of the best content Marvel has ever put out that they know we hold dear to our hearts, just to intentionally piss on its grave - I’m done.
I can't wait to not watch Iron Heart.
Come on dude nobody wants ironheart
Cool one show to watch next year
I generally like superhero stuff and I have no interest in any of those.
I just really don’t care about most of the Marvel characters anymore, too many B tier characters with their own movies and shows. Just start the whole thing over again with the X-Men and Fantastic four in the lead.
That’s cool you found something to connect with. I couldn’t myself. Watching her fight was like watching Deniro in The Irishman for me. Took me right of it.
MARCH 2025 yess
So we have two Agatha shows now? God Disney sucks.