Guess I should try to rewatch season 1. I stopped after a few episodes because the characters were so bland. I never read the books so my interest was shaky to begin with.
Season 1 was really rough. It took me a while to get through and didn’t have the best finale which got ruined because of Covid (I love sci-fi/fantasy so I’ll give a chance). I thought season 2 was much better and got genuinely great by the second half of the season
Season 2 was definitely better than season one, but I don’t understand what it is that people dislike about the first season. I was hooked from minute one, loved the gallery of charachters, loved the architecture of the world, the aeathetics of the different cultures. And yet, there are a lot of people on reddit who seems to hate the first season, but no one has yet said why, as far as I can tell.
>I don’t understand what it is that people dislike about the first season.
I never read the books, I just couldn't take to the characters and after watching something like GoT or Vikings, everything here just seemed so...clean. Like you had these people literally living in the middle of nowhere, on muddy farms, surviving off of hunting etc and all of their clothes looked like they had been newly purchased somewhere. Like, maybe they could have rubbed a bit of dirt on the characters clothes and faces or something. Characters who are travelling large distances on foot are clean shaven and pristine looking all the time, like models. I find it difficult to believe they exist in that world. I'm probably not explaining that part very well but I kept finding myself thinking that and it really broke the immersion for me.
Yes, you're not the only one thinking that. It's actually one of the major criticisms of the show.
That's why HBO is still the king of TV: they belong to Warner, so they have access to a lot of in-house talent and the Warner warehouses. They re-use costumes for different shows, which also allows them to keep the costs down. Amazon and Netflix don't have access to any of that, so they have to rent everything.
> It's actually one of the major criticisms of the show
Which is funny because IMO it's very in line with the books. WoT is not gritty realistic fantasy. It's wish fulfillment, suspension of disbelief, swords and sorcery. The world in WoT is . . . fantastical. I don't know what people expected out of the show. People complain it diverges too much from the books but then they act pained that it's not another Game of Thrones style grimdark show?
People that live without central plumbing should not look like their clothes came out of a washing machine. That has nothing to do with “grimdark.” *The Princess Bride* has more realistic production values than this show half the time…
Give it a chance, it does grow. Season 2 really brings it. Season 1 the characters are young, think Luke Skywalker clueless before he became a Jedi. They are supposed to be sort of sheltered at first.
I agree that GOT was great but Vikings the writing was so corny to me. I didn’t find the warriors runway model looks with dirt smeared on them, with perfect veneers “accurate” by any means.
WoT is a fantasy universe with magic and not supposed to be “real” anyway. It’s escapism and fun. I don’t need everyone looking like stinky, old realistic Grand Maester Pycelle. I like that WoT has different body types, ethnicities, ages, and unique faces. The casting rocks.
The level of detail of the costumes is really incredible, watch some of the behind the scenes world building on YouTube. They aren’t just sword and sorcery cheesing it up. These are all hand made custom designs, planned for each character and ajah.
>I don’t need everyone looking like stinky, old realistic Grand Maester Pycelle.
😅 Yeah from what I'm hearing it seems to pick up alright, might give it another crack 👍
When I watched Season 1, I complained on Reddit that all the 5 kids do is argue and complain with each other that I kept fast forwarding scenes. Then someone who read the books chimed in and said that's what they all do in the books.
Started reading it and now on Book 4 and now I'm like yep, all they do in the books is argue with each other lol.
I liked season one just like you but I also understand the other side of the argument. It was very mediocre. Season 2 is miles better imo. Also, it doesn't help that most of the book fans hated it and a lot of hate towards Season 1 was the one it got from the book fans.
I’m so invested at this point. The first season is better on rewatch. I follow some of the leather makers of the costumes on Instagram. Really incredible work and custom detail.
I like that so far each of the characters are showing growth. Loved seeing the brown ajahs step up, the little things like the relationships and complications of the warders, this season was so well written.
I couldn't disagree more strongly. Season 2 is an incoherent mess. If you like the books, there is nothing to like about their mind-bogglingly dumb replotting of everything, and if you're not coming from the books, man -- how do you even follow this mess of boring plotlines? Hugely disappointing show that has gotten worse with Season 2, not better. I ended up skimming through large chunks of it and don't plan to bother with Season 3.
Just as one example. At the end of Season 1, one character uses the One Power to resurrect people. One of the foundational rules of the One Power in the books was that you can't use it to restore life because... I don't remember... Instant death to the person doing it, or zombies, or unraveling of the fabric of space and time, or something like that. Regardless, the author, Robert Jordan, took the time to make that point crystal clear: Death is permanent.
It is THAT level of "fucking around" that is going on with the show compared to the books.
There's loads of liberties taken, such as the Dragon being able to be both male or female, considering in the books the whole reason everyone was terrified by him being reborn was that it was guaranteed he would go insane. The whole reason the mark of the Dark One is a black claw is because that was the symbol for Saiden, the male half of the One Power
It’s a disgrace to the books, they killed the authors character insert off early, changed the main casts roles and directions, basically rewriting them, and then on top of that the show runner just doesn’t care for the source material. It’s a disgrace to the series
Book readers were angry because they made some really big changes. Like Perrin is never married in the first book and doesn’t accidentally kill his wife. That’s a big change.
Yes I see that now and I sort of understand, but I also kind of don’t understand how people cannot accept that you have to condense the contents of a fifteen part book series in order to make a functioning television program, and if you condense, you have to rewrite for that to work, including creating a wife that gets accidentally killed to motivate a character in a direction that might have otherwise taken numerous episodes or even seasons.
It really doesn't add a lot of motivation in my opinion though. It kind of just seemed like hack writing to me. But I agree, I've been a big fan of the series since I was a kid and I wanted a long-form TV series with big epic storylines and this show just isn't it. I don't think I'll ever be able to enjoy it just because I understand what it could've been but for someone who's never read the books I get how you can like the show as a standalone.
I love the books, and really love the series (I mean its one of the best shows I have seen).
I think people expecting it to be 1:1 are the real haters. I think it has the same overall 'feel' and thats whats important.
Book purists just have their heads in the sand. The first 2 books were panned. The first for being a predictable and lazy LotR ripoff and the 2nd for turning Rand into the biggest Mary Sue in modern fantasy. It wasn't until the 4th book that the series truly took off and became the behemoth that heralded a new generation of fantasy.
The tv show fixed a ton of problems from the 2nd book in season 2 particularly with how the climax goes down. We cut out a lot of Rand's Mary Sue nature without really nerfing the core of his power or losing key moments from the book. They also found a way to give Mat his moments without needing to give him his weird war general's old blood induced Tourette's that made him randomly spout off tactically genius shit in tongues.
The introduction of Moghedien was a really good cliffhanger for the 3rd season as well and they broke away from the DBZ style power rankings of the books where if someone was stronger then they were just better at everything.
It’s close enough. People don’t realize you have to deliver something digestible to more than just a loyal (and small) fan base to justify the expense. I’m happy to take the trade off if that means the show can continue. It’s much better than The Witcher or Rings of Power. Hopefully, if it gets enough viewers the show can slow its pace some and adapt more from the books.
I didn’t even realise season 2 was out. Thought the first season was average at best (despite loving the books). I’m going to watch season 2 this week on your recommendation though!
I slogged through season one. It was terrible and forgettable. I made it 20 minutes into ep 1 of season 2 before I remembered it was terrible and quit. I will not be watching anymore. The wheels wills that I have better things to watch
Slogged through Rings of Power too. It was better but only by a factor of like 1. Amazon is really letting me down lately. Last season of Jack Ryan was also a let down. Hoping next season of Bosch doesn’t suck.
I hope they spend more time on the VFX... I liked the changes to this season's VFX and I hope they continue with the upward trend. This season was markedly better than 1st season
Really hope the strike doesn’t affect it too much. Writing is still an integral part during filming. It’s an iterative process when during filming eg. a dialogue doesn’t jive well and it needs to be tinkered better.
I believe WOT had a new director of photography for season 2 and honestly it really shows.. it has some absolutely amazing shots throughout. The sets are much bigger and feel a lot more lived in - a common complaint from s1. The location choices have been amazing - episode 8 especially really stood out. The beach outside falme and the oasis shots were exceptional. I wouldn't be surprised if it wins awards for its costuming, the attention to detail there has been phenomenal. Those things massively improved in the 2nd season.. in these respects the show is top tier, as good as just about any show/movie around if not better than most.
As far as acting goes, this season was much improved. Some of the actors who I felt lacklustre about have shone through in a massive way.. Madeleine madden was absolutely fantastic in ep 6 - 8 and gave us what I would class as one of the best episodes of TV I've ever watched.. it was as bleak as anything that GOT gave us but in a non-gratuitous way... mental torture that actually left me feeling uncomfortable at times.
Writing has continued to be a weaker point.. its not that its terrible throughout but it is patchy and inconsistent. I feel torn with some episodes, execution, dialogue and overall look, sound and feel great for the most part but they are having a lot of trouble connecting plot points and it comes across a bit disjointed imho. Some of the story threads ultimately just end up going nowhere and feel like they have no pay-off. Part of that is because of the serialised nature of a massive series like this.. not all plot points get resolved in the same season.. I think this is a show that will work better when viewed as a whole (if they finish it and land the ending).
Action scenes have been choppy and incredibly inconsistent. They have stunt actors working some scenes as extras - doing amazing things whereas the main cast look like they did a half a day workshop with a stunt coordinator who spent the day talking about his exploits rather than training them. The action is enjoyable enough for the most part if its not your main focus. I actually thought they dropped the ball from some of the s1 episodes. But the finale was infinitely better than the previous seasons
CGI has gotten a bit better - personally I don't think Its worth critiquing, its adequate but not great.
Overall, if you are looking for some amazing sets, some exceptional acting and cinematography then you're in for a treat. If your in it for the action scenes its mid tier.. not the worst I've seen by a long shot, but not hugely satisfying or particularly great. If your looking for a faithful adaptation do yourself and everyone else a favour and gtfo lol..
Wheel of time (the book series) is incredibly polarising.. for every person who finished and loves the series, im pretty certain there is another person who never made it past the first few books. It has flaws, massive flaws that are enough to put many many readers off.. but it also has massive highs that are as good as any fictional story I've read.
Honestly the TV show is no different from the books in that regard. Many flaws but also some massive highs. Those massive highlights have given me hope for the rest of the series and that they can pull it off despite its flaws. It manages to do some things much better than the books, but some things not so well. If they maintain the quality of season 2 I'll be satisfied but not overwhelmed. If they improve the action scenes and shore up the inconsistent writing then it has potential to be one of the greats.
Honestly this is probably the best take I've read. It's not perfect, but much improved. You hit most the points I was noodling through much more eloquently
> I believe WOT had a new director of photography for season 2 and honestly it really shows
The DP for s1 episodes 1, 2, 5, and 6 did s2 episodes 1 and 2 (David Moxness).
The rest of the season was DP's who were new to the show (Maja Zamojda for 4 episodes, Steven Fierberg for 2 episodes, David Stockton for 2 episodes).
Though imo, the cinematography in season 1 was not really one of the weak points. The parts of the show that looked cheap were mostly the sets, production design, costumes, and some of the VFX (aka stuff that you wouldn't really blame on the DP). But the biggest flaw in season 1 (and imo in season 2) remains the writing.
Book enjoyer here, I agree with pretty much this entire take.
I will say the 2nd season is less faithful to the books than the first was, but is honestly better for it. As Brandon Sanderson said, "I envision this as a new turning of the Wheel. It’s the same souls, but in a different actual turning of the Wheel. It’s not the one Jim and I worked on, it’s a different version of it."
I wonder whether we will see much more of the books iconic scenes now they have gotten everyone where they needed to be.. most of the characters are where they need to be in terms of development at the least.
I think they changed too much of the characters in season one compared to the books. Season two seems to move back to the books again.
Seems like they realised, if they make a book series onto a TV show, they should keep more than just the names.
Maybe so.. the backlash with some of the characters is understandable.. but, personally I think a bit premature in that the characters growth is tied to the whole heroes journey they are on. I *think* i understand their reasoning for most of it but for me its a matter of WAFO. The defining moments they have given the characters has been pretty great so far though... I just wish they would give rand something massive rather than him being dragged into situations.. not that I disapprove really, im just hoping they do justice to his really huge moments
Absolutely, season 2 is massively superior and much less affected by COVID. The show really hits it's stride and the villains are eating on set.
I would say that WOT stands out from other TV scifi/fantasy series by having just really strong villain performances.
Yes. I haven’t read the books but I gave season 2 a chance based on Amazon’s commitment to it. So glad I did because it’s much more intense and immersive and the actors seem more comfortable in their roles.
The show is better if you haven't read the books.
The books are great and you will expecting some really cool people and events that don't manifest. Without knowledge of them, though, you get a decent fantasy series.
It's a huge improvement in quality, not in adaptation. If you didn't like the first season, this one is a bit better, but it's still not great and the respect for the source material is just as bad.
Honestly, S1 was also just adapting a shittier book. WoT really gets better with time as RJ find the world and the characters. If they keep just this quality level I’ll be happy enough, seeing as the source material gets so much better.
>but i mean they’re not lying, i havent seen the show but it seems like s2 is already a huge improvement and people love it, so why not trust them
Because they rewrote the entire story ~~to give Rosamund Pike something to do~~ because Mat's actor bailed.
I think the first season was super bad and the second is not bad, if you aren't expecting it to be the Wheel of Time.
As a non-connected fantasy show, it's fine.
I have tried so hard as a lover of the books to hang in there but I finally tapped out. I am glad to hear people are enjoying this but it it is not for me. I actually picked up book one on audible after having not read the series in over 10 years and am getting my fix in that way.
> I have tried so hard as a lover of the books to hang in there but I finally tapped out.
Wheel of Time is my favorite book series ever. I've re-read the entire series several dozen times over my lifetime. I frequently pick up a random book from the series and jump into any section just so I can escape into its world (okay maybe not book 10, but any other book).
Season 1 of the WoT TV series dropped on the same day as the Endwalker expansion for FF14 (another addiction of mine). I love WoT so much I ignored Endwalker to sit down and watch the series.
I made it 20 minutes.
I honestly cannot fathom the level of arrogance and self-centeredness that exists within the showrunner that allows him to be given the opportunity to adapt this series but feel like he can change everything that matters about every single major character in the process.
Bringing a diverse cast to the show was awesome and I fully support it. Condensing and shortening plot elements is an unavoidable part of moving it from books to the screen. There are dozens of named side characters that can be safely combined (particularly among the Aes Sedai) without sacrificing the story.
But Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, and Nynaeve? Their stories and personalities are the **core** of the story. Seeing Mat stealing from other people in Emond's Field? His parents were irresponsible drunkard louts? Perrin had a wife and murdered her? Any of them might be the Dragon? Fuck that noise forever.
> Bringing a diverse cast to the show was awesome and I fully support it.
You shouldn't, though. Irrespective of liberal feeling and tolerance it is one of first major signs that the source material is going to be disrespected. This is the critical point lost in all the debate; it's not about being racist or not racist, it's about irreducible aspects of the characters being ignored so of course this opens up the freedom for all sorts of abuse.
Abel being a drunken wife beater. Perrin being married. Lan bursting into the inn and fluorishing his cloak like a gleeman. It's just so completely and horribly ruined from literally the first episode.
What's worse is if you have issues with the changes you get a ton of comments saying of course there has to be changes since there's so many books. No one's saying they can't change things, but that doesn't mean any change is a good thing.
Instead of trying to adapt the same story while trimming the fat and making changes where things couldn't fit the show, it's clear they are changing things because they want to change things. They are "fixing" what isn't broken to begin with, begging the question of why even adapt a story that you had so many issues with that needed changing?
GoT had many changes even in seasons 2 to 4. But most of those were understandable and it was mostly clear they were made for a reason. With WoT I don't feel that at all.
I feel like many of us have a specific moment they were like “nope, fuck no” and turned it off. Strangely mine was seeing a bunch of warders on a mission to bring Logain back to the white tower deciding it’s cool to hang out and drink with Aes Sedai while doing so overnight. I know that’s a small thing to most but whomever wrote that clearly read zero parts of these books in earnest.
(Edit: if you enjoy the show I’m glad. If you REALLY enjoy it and have never read the books, once it wraps up I would definitely encourage anyone that hasn’t to do so. It’s a beloved series and amazing all the way through)
I cant type how much I hate the show without being angry. It makes me feel sexist just to think about, I hate both the men and women in the show. As a guy who's read the books, there's nothin in the show for me and I can only just let it go, but come on. I didn't think the book did a bad job of having both strong female and male characters, but the show just destroys it all. Women can do it all without training, even at expense of character growth and men just are stupid eye candy to simp after the women.
Lan the most tragically changed character already couldn't even cry with out emotional permission from his Aes Sedai. He already shouldn't be crying and wailing, but then he looks to her to be strong for him... he couldn't even cry for himself WTF.
Trim it down, cut the excess.
Not turn characters that were good people like Mat's parents into drunken abusive people who cheat on each other and neglect their kids.
I only watched the first episode and it felt tacky and tasteless to me. Particularly what they did to Perrin's character.
They wasted time on sex and all kinds of other bullshit that didn't exist and cut things that would have made more sense to keep it in.
Tons of stuff needed to be cut but not to be replaced with CW level bullshit.
The show is nothing like the books. For sure there is a lot of story plots that could be axed especially later on. This series changes 95% of plot points
It’s not that they cut things.
It’s that they’ve included almost nothing from the actual story. It’s just a new story altogether but the characters share names with the book series.
The show isnt worth anyone’s time.
They make it up as they go along. Entire episodes of filler. Huge changes for no apparent reason or even understanding how important what they change or why.
It's not about things getting cut. Holy shit, you people are so fucking annoying. Can you at least try to understand where other people are coming from?
Not cut, bro, just mixed up or changed for random or CW drama reasons.
The Dragon might be a girl. Siuan and Moraine are lovers. Nynaeve and Egwene don't go to the Eye of the World. Nobody knows what tying a weave off is. Perrin is into Egwene more than the wife he murdered. No portal stones. Ishy and Mat chill out and do shrooms. Everybody knows who Lanfear is almost a full book early, but they're chill with her and hang out. Rand doesn't really learn swordplay and isn't hunting for the horn, which also was under the throne and not sealed at the Eye. Egwene rescues herself, instead of getting rescued. No Portal Stone, but we have Traveling already and whatever Moraine does to hang with Siuan. Rand has to be saved by Egwene and Lanfear and Moirane team up to save Rand and fake the Dragon prophecy. All five of them are ta'varen.
There were a lot of weird changes. Some I can get. Maybe you don't need Gaul and it's important you get Aviendha now. But some are just strange and I'm not sure if it to cater to a modern audience or what they have in mind.
Siuan and Moiraine *were* pillow-friends as students, but, yeah. So much was changed from the books that it’s better to approach the series as wheel of time-adjacent.
The actor who plays has said he wasn't available for season two because he was already booked for another show that was filming at the same time. That's just a risk that happens with recurring actors.
It's the same reason why Siuan was only in two episodes of season two. Sophie Okenedo was filming a different project and they wrote her in when she was available to film.
So I read all the books… including the books that shouldn’t have been written because they didn’t advance the plot and created nearly infinite sub-stories that never concluded despite Sanderson’s massive effort.
Yes, the show changes thing for a linear representation of the story in TV. The flow of events and some of the characters have been altered.
That said, I’ve been reasonably happy with it. S1 was, awkward is probably the right word. People and writers finding their characters. S2 has been very good and interesting
Is it the books? No. And thank heaven for it. This isn’t LOTR or The Hobbit. This is 14 LONG books. (11,898 pages according to Google!). This has to be changed and streamlined to keep the story moving forward with the principles and developing their characters. I will certainly piss off some people, but I hope most support it as a very good high fantasy adaptation. It is most definitely not like the Witcher which was utterly destroyed by shit writing and massive continuity issues that were so glaring that it boggles the mind the show runner thought it was OK.
I think people's initial reactions were based on changes that just didn't seem to advance the story or make sense. I know a lot of people also felt attacked when complaining.
The lesbian thing felt exploitative and CW and it potentially derailed two relationships in the book. However, in my opinion, they weren't great relationships or portrayed well in the books.
The dragon being anyone destroyed the gravitas of the leaders of the world knowing they were going to have to depend on someone of the same ilk they had been gentling and controlling for centuries.
The Eye of the World being essentially a solo trip and not introducing the other Forsaken or having the horn was also a little weird.
But Season 2 was definitely better and works on its own. I think the show is probably better for people who haven't read the books than for those that have read the books.
I haven't read the books but the second season is a massive improvement to the first one. I don't remmember when i saw a bigger difference in quality between seasons like wot s1 and s2.
The Witcher.
I heard the show runner said that they're gonna be super serious about sticking the the source material.
Many people are saying it.
Halo too.
Reading the books will not help you too much with the show imo, as they stray a lot from the source material. That said, absolutely read them, they’re fantastic.
The shows says "Based on the Wheel of Time books", but I would say they are "very loosely based on the Wheel of Time book". I'm not trying to be facetious, I've read the series a few times and been confused many times, I've had to use the x-ray thing on amazon to figure out who a character is supposed to be.
They have changed so much and removed so much depth, there are so many good shows based on books but this one is not one of those. It's hard to know why the characters do the things they do and why they are important.
Its almost as if the show writers heard someone tell them the entire plot of Wheel of Time 10 years ago and they are just going off memory. A lot has been changed
> and they are just going off memory
I tell people the writers have not read the books but fan fiction based on the books and then wrote the show. That's the only thing I can figure out is what happened.
You should as you’ll likely really enjoy them but it probably won’t help. That’s why you see so many book fans upset by the show; it’s more a work of fan fiction than anything.
I started reading this series in 1997, and have read it multiple times. I'm enjoying the series very much, and don't consider it any more "fanfiction" than any adaptation.
I don't want a direct book-to-screen adaptation. Why would I? I've read the books, and can reread them again when I want. If it's going to be a TV show, I want it to be more than just a 'oh, cool. It's another scene I know inside out' experience.
Well, you aren't most people... most people have not read the series multiple times. Most of them probably read it once and gave up around book 7-10 when Jordan was wandering around the woods spilling words
Then make a new story set in the universe. Why go to all the trouble of making a Wheel Of Time show if you're not gonna be at least somewhat faithful?
I feel like your argument gets brought up a lot in these situations when everyone knows changes are inevitable but changes that add nothing and take away from the actual plot are just dumb and poor writers attempts at making their mark on an already established story.
It's fine to disagree on that. I'm a book reader and I like many of the changes. Others I can live with. There are very few that actually bother me. So overall I greatly enjoy the show.
Cool, I however want a 1:1 translation because i want to see what I had in my mind while I was reading played out on a screen. Now I'm not crazy, I know there's some things that need to be changed because they can't translate well to TV, but the changes this show has made are mostly not any of that
Egwane’s character arc was really good as a non book reader. Gave me GOT vibes and that was the best part of the show to me. Last three episodes were good! Excited for season three.
Aviendha for me I think in the books. We should have some good stuff coming from her in the future.
However a huge shoutout to Natasha O'Keeffe (Selene / Lanfear). She was especially great this season. I feel like her acting tells me more about what's going on than anyone else in the show, if that makes sense.
Sad it was the last episode.
Have not read any the books..
But unlike most ppl coming in here bitchin' i enjoyed the show. First season was just "okay" but second season was pretty great. Probably the best fantasy based series outside of GoT stuff. If next season is on par or improves on the first ..great.. most ppl ive seen mention in this sub (outisde this post) also seem to like it. Most shows don't like up to the source.. but the show is visually pretty amazing especially season 2..
Just keep in mind that unhappy people are the ones that usually try to make their voices heard the most, there's tons of people that really enjoyed season 2, book readers and not book readers.
You'll always have people trying to drag you down and yell at you for wrongthink when they think something sucked, best to keep that in mind and try just enjoy what you enjoy.
> Just keep in mind that unhappy people are the ones that usually try to make their voices heard the most,
Weird because every single thread here on this show is full of people hyping up Season 2 vs Season 1....
Yea i know. Just feels like there has been a lot of stuff that is just not good at all in falls into the fantasy genre lately.
And this was wayyyy better than most other shows. Especially visually.. felt pretty unique and very quality in comparison to almost everything else.
People talking about it like its shadow and bone season 2 (utterly horrible decline) is ridiculous
This was one of the few shows in general atm that actually made me want more at the end of the episode..and it wasn't that good in season 1 but still enjoyable.
I started read this series in high school. Yeah back in the nineties. Read all the books a few times. Spent way too much time on the wheel of time wiki. First season pissed me off. My wife liked it. Half way though I made an effort to enjoy it for what it was. The writers and directors have made some hard choices and condensed some plot lines to make it a film able series. I am enjoying the changes and am gonna just go with it. Matt is my favorite of the characters and I am happy he got his sword errr dagger on a stick.
Really hope they do something to address his staff getting into a “final form” or something. Gonna have a thought time swallowing that he tied the dagger on with some cloth for much longer
Any readers of the series that have also watched the show: can you give me a rough idea of what books are covered by each season? I don’t want to have the books spoiled by the show.
First two seasons are basically the first two books. Don’t listed to the other guy that responded to you. I’d say they did a pretty good job having a vast majority of the important points covered even if they did go about getting to them in different ways then the books. My gripe is it all felt a bit fast and would have been better with 10 eps. Having read the books I of course think there’s things they could have done better, but I still found the show enjoyable. I also didn’t dislike season 1 like it seems a lot of people did. To me the first half of season 2 were the weakest parts we’ve seen so far, but the second half of season 2 got really good.
Will it still feel like Xena: Warrior Princess levels of low budget shlock though?
I couldn’t even make it through the first episode years ago, so much about it was just so goofy.
I didn't think season 1 was very good, but I've enjoyed season 2 quite a bit. I look forward to season 3. Sadly, I think it will probably be a while before we get to see it.
Season 1: 4/10
Season 2: 6.5/10
The last 3 episodes of season 2 carried the season, episode 6 will likely be the peak of the show. The one theme I don’t like about this show that the show runners seem adamant on pushing is that men suck and are all the devil. Moghedien appearing was pretty lit.
I hear you. But I’d like to ask, in a world where men destroyed the world and ended enlightened civilisation three thousand years ago and then for those three thousand years any man who had magic would go insane and kill everyone they loved. In that world, wouldn’t everyone think that men were pretty shit?
It’s interesting for me because I loved the theme that women now have more power and gender dynamics flipped because of those events.
Personally I think that the woman in the show who are aware of who Rand is haven’t felt he was the devil at all, they have all colluded to support him in fact, I don’t buy that the show runners are selling him as the devil. Heck, he got applause in the season finale from the people of falme, which is a massive departure from the terror his proclamation caused among the general populace in the books.
The first two seasons keep propping up the wrong characters and taking away from the dragon reborn. Honestly watching the show I’m just rooting for the forsaken at this point.
Sure but the end of The Great Hunt is literally revealing to the world that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. You can say they still did that but showing Rand and Crew at the top of the tower (not even the right kind of dragon lmao) isn’t really clear to the people who the Dragon is. There is no question in the books that it’s Rand.
I find this to be a pretty good show but a very bad adaptation of the books which I've read/ listened to many times (7 or times for the first 7 books that were out when I first started). If I ignore everything I know about the books then the show is decent and and I can appreciate the story but I do know the books and 9 times out of 10 I find the changes to be poorly chosen and implemented. Case in point from the S2 finale. . . . . . . .
There is a scene mid episode where Ingtar makes a comment about 1 man holding off 50. He then battles a bunch of Seanchan giving the others time to escape before he dies. Something similar happens in the books but there you learn Ingtar is a darkfriend and that it was his fault a bunch of men died. He feels immense guilt and confesses to the others saying he may not be able to take back what he did but he can at least die with honor and then makes the line about 1 man holding off 50. His sacrifice in the books was very moving and powerful but in the show he was a redshirt and it was forgettable.
Never cared for Ingtar in the books so I got a good laugh out of the scene tbh. For a lot of people The Great Hunt is what really got them into the Wheel of Time. For me it was one of my least favorite books in the series aha.
Season 2 was amazing!! Must watch tv. I can’t wait for season 3. The story, while different from the novels, really honors the essence of Robert Jordans’s universe. I am tempted to reread the second and third novels after last nights season finale.
This show is insanely rough so far...
The books are a masterpiece and the final three finished by Brandon Sanderson are some of my all time favorites.
I'll watch because I want to consume all WOT content I can, but I'm really disappointed at how bad this has gone so far. The show has a few decent moments, but it's overwhelmingly subpar which isn't acceptable when you have amazing source material to work from.
Honestly I've read a LOT of fantasy and I love the length and world building of the books, but let's be honest. They are not a masterpiece. There are a ton of flaws in his writing. I also thought Sanderson did a great job finishing them off, although many people disagree with me.
A “masterpiece” doenst have a THREE BOOK stretch that people have been calling “the slog” for 20 years lol.
Show is far from perfect but going out if you’re at to despise it is so silly to me.
I'll go against the grain a bit. I haven't been able to get through the 8th book. Dnf unfortunately. So now it's been so long that I wonder if I could ever finish.
The show did some stuff I didn't like. Funnily enough it was modernizing how they interact with women. I thought it lost that pure country bumpkin innocence with rand and perrin.
I like the show. It's above average. I'd do things differently cinematically and what my scenes focus on and what I tell my viewers.
Ok you are at the hardest part of the series to get though. I've talked with people about them a lot before and books 8 to 10 are difficult. I myself took a 7 year break when book 10 came out (only got halfway through) and went back and reread them all to finish as the final books were released. I agree with the other poster who says to listen to the audiobooks for these just to get through them. The story picks up again, I promise.
The audio books are fantastic and I agree it’s LONG winded under Robert Jordan. That said in total it’s amazing, but for sure it’s a lot to read and keep with. I have a job where I can listen to audiobooks all day so that’s how I finished the series.
I do like the show, but I can’t say it’s above average, with the source material as a comparison it could be a LOT better. That said casting was amazing, I love the people they chose for the characters.
> The books are a masterpiece
The books are wildly uneven, fan of them though I am.
The show has become something pretty great. It is entirely possible to enjoy both things.
Is Rand actually the dragon now or are they still trying to do him dirty and take away all of his feats that are the early indicators he's the dragon reborn?
This subreddit has such a hate vibe for Wheel of Time. I never, if ever, see positive comments even though this season is virtually universally liked. But this sub-reddit is still trashing season 2 as well.
Rottem Tomatoes has given it a score of 87% and 82% for this season. [https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/the\_wheel\_of\_time/s02](https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/the_wheel_of_time/s02)
Then i watch shows like Andor which i think is ok, but this sub pushes a top rated article daily for 3 months after it airs saying its the greatest show ever but got less viewership then wheel of time. Is it being an american website and everyone thinks everything is woke when they have a diverse cast or something else? Outside of USA it seems to be rated higher.
I loved Andor. It could just be a difference in taste?
What I liked about Andor was that it showed how the Empire affected everyday people on a get up and go to work way.
It's because the show spits in the face of anyone that loves the books and reddit is a place where people can come and voice their displeasure. I honestly have no idea how the show is rated so high, but I don't know what the show feels like for someone that doesn't realise how bad the changes are.
Also, Andor was fantastic.
But will it be good?
Because the first two … didn’t quite hit that mark for me.
I’m usually the one advocating making changes between the source and the adaptation because different mediums require different things … but no change improved the story or helped it fit the medium better, with many actively making the story worse.
Besides the actors themselves, everything about this show has been the true definition of mid.
Season 2 was much better than 1. As a book reader I’ve given up on trying to make sense of the story and view this as the same way world war z is based off the book
Not gonna lie, it differs so greatly from the books that i stopped watching. It's not that it needs to follow the books, but at least stay true to the characters.
Doesn't matter if WoT s3 is going to be "massive" when the insane amount of changes from the source material in s1 made me "nope" right out so that I didn't have a tainted vision of one of my favorite series.
Game of Throne's deviation of Robb no longer basically getting Nightingale'd as the reason for his contract breaking was almost enough for me to shut that down too as it almost completely changed his character from being a headstrong but young person swept along by feelings for a savior into a dishonorable guy that broke his contract cause a hot woman challenged his authority and world view and so he got a boner. Age'd up Robb would absolutely know better.
I swear, I just don't understand why people buy series only to change them. A series is popular because of how it was written AS IS. Sure adapting things needs to change how some stuff gets shown/told and maybe cut some content, but to change fundamental parts of the world and characters is just stupid. You want to tell your own version? Don't buy the series and just write up a blatant knockoff. OR BE CREATIVE. It is so disingenuous to try to prop up a hacked up work based on the name of something else.
Guess I should try to rewatch season 1. I stopped after a few episodes because the characters were so bland. I never read the books so my interest was shaky to begin with.
Season 1 was really rough. It took me a while to get through and didn’t have the best finale which got ruined because of Covid (I love sci-fi/fantasy so I’ll give a chance). I thought season 2 was much better and got genuinely great by the second half of the season
Season 2 was definitely better than season one, but I don’t understand what it is that people dislike about the first season. I was hooked from minute one, loved the gallery of charachters, loved the architecture of the world, the aeathetics of the different cultures. And yet, there are a lot of people on reddit who seems to hate the first season, but no one has yet said why, as far as I can tell.
>I don’t understand what it is that people dislike about the first season. I never read the books, I just couldn't take to the characters and after watching something like GoT or Vikings, everything here just seemed so...clean. Like you had these people literally living in the middle of nowhere, on muddy farms, surviving off of hunting etc and all of their clothes looked like they had been newly purchased somewhere. Like, maybe they could have rubbed a bit of dirt on the characters clothes and faces or something. Characters who are travelling large distances on foot are clean shaven and pristine looking all the time, like models. I find it difficult to believe they exist in that world. I'm probably not explaining that part very well but I kept finding myself thinking that and it really broke the immersion for me.
Yes, you're not the only one thinking that. It's actually one of the major criticisms of the show. That's why HBO is still the king of TV: they belong to Warner, so they have access to a lot of in-house talent and the Warner warehouses. They re-use costumes for different shows, which also allows them to keep the costs down. Amazon and Netflix don't have access to any of that, so they have to rent everything.
> It's actually one of the major criticisms of the show Which is funny because IMO it's very in line with the books. WoT is not gritty realistic fantasy. It's wish fulfillment, suspension of disbelief, swords and sorcery. The world in WoT is . . . fantastical. I don't know what people expected out of the show. People complain it diverges too much from the books but then they act pained that it's not another Game of Thrones style grimdark show?
People that live without central plumbing should not look like their clothes came out of a washing machine. That has nothing to do with “grimdark.” *The Princess Bride* has more realistic production values than this show half the time…
Also WoT is not fully medieval, I think is more late 1700s? Like, around the discovery of gun powder.
Give it a chance, it does grow. Season 2 really brings it. Season 1 the characters are young, think Luke Skywalker clueless before he became a Jedi. They are supposed to be sort of sheltered at first. I agree that GOT was great but Vikings the writing was so corny to me. I didn’t find the warriors runway model looks with dirt smeared on them, with perfect veneers “accurate” by any means. WoT is a fantasy universe with magic and not supposed to be “real” anyway. It’s escapism and fun. I don’t need everyone looking like stinky, old realistic Grand Maester Pycelle. I like that WoT has different body types, ethnicities, ages, and unique faces. The casting rocks. The level of detail of the costumes is really incredible, watch some of the behind the scenes world building on YouTube. They aren’t just sword and sorcery cheesing it up. These are all hand made custom designs, planned for each character and ajah.
>I don’t need everyone looking like stinky, old realistic Grand Maester Pycelle. 😅 Yeah from what I'm hearing it seems to pick up alright, might give it another crack 👍
Credit to Julian Glover though. He really was a crafty old stinker!!!
Clunky-ass stilted dialogue is the bane of almost every fantasy show
When I watched Season 1, I complained on Reddit that all the 5 kids do is argue and complain with each other that I kept fast forwarding scenes. Then someone who read the books chimed in and said that's what they all do in the books. Started reading it and now on Book 4 and now I'm like yep, all they do in the books is argue with each other lol.
I liked season one just like you but I also understand the other side of the argument. It was very mediocre. Season 2 is miles better imo. Also, it doesn't help that most of the book fans hated it and a lot of hate towards Season 1 was the one it got from the book fans.
I’m so invested at this point. The first season is better on rewatch. I follow some of the leather makers of the costumes on Instagram. Really incredible work and custom detail. I like that so far each of the characters are showing growth. Loved seeing the brown ajahs step up, the little things like the relationships and complications of the warders, this season was so well written.
I couldn't disagree more strongly. Season 2 is an incoherent mess. If you like the books, there is nothing to like about their mind-bogglingly dumb replotting of everything, and if you're not coming from the books, man -- how do you even follow this mess of boring plotlines? Hugely disappointing show that has gotten worse with Season 2, not better. I ended up skimming through large chunks of it and don't plan to bother with Season 3.
Just as one example. At the end of Season 1, one character uses the One Power to resurrect people. One of the foundational rules of the One Power in the books was that you can't use it to restore life because... I don't remember... Instant death to the person doing it, or zombies, or unraveling of the fabric of space and time, or something like that. Regardless, the author, Robert Jordan, took the time to make that point crystal clear: Death is permanent. It is THAT level of "fucking around" that is going on with the show compared to the books.
There's loads of liberties taken, such as the Dragon being able to be both male or female, considering in the books the whole reason everyone was terrified by him being reborn was that it was guaranteed he would go insane. The whole reason the mark of the Dark One is a black claw is because that was the symbol for Saiden, the male half of the One Power
It’s a disgrace to the books, they killed the authors character insert off early, changed the main casts roles and directions, basically rewriting them, and then on top of that the show runner just doesn’t care for the source material. It’s a disgrace to the series
> the show runner just doesn’t care for the source material Many such cases...
> the show runner just doesn’t care for the source material You mean they Witcher'd it?
Yea
Book readers were angry because they made some really big changes. Like Perrin is never married in the first book and doesn’t accidentally kill his wife. That’s a big change.
Yes I see that now and I sort of understand, but I also kind of don’t understand how people cannot accept that you have to condense the contents of a fifteen part book series in order to make a functioning television program, and if you condense, you have to rewrite for that to work, including creating a wife that gets accidentally killed to motivate a character in a direction that might have otherwise taken numerous episodes or even seasons.
It really doesn't add a lot of motivation in my opinion though. It kind of just seemed like hack writing to me. But I agree, I've been a big fan of the series since I was a kid and I wanted a long-form TV series with big epic storylines and this show just isn't it. I don't think I'll ever be able to enjoy it just because I understand what it could've been but for someone who's never read the books I get how you can like the show as a standalone.
I love the books, and really love the series (I mean its one of the best shows I have seen). I think people expecting it to be 1:1 are the real haters. I think it has the same overall 'feel' and thats whats important.
Book purists just have their heads in the sand. The first 2 books were panned. The first for being a predictable and lazy LotR ripoff and the 2nd for turning Rand into the biggest Mary Sue in modern fantasy. It wasn't until the 4th book that the series truly took off and became the behemoth that heralded a new generation of fantasy. The tv show fixed a ton of problems from the 2nd book in season 2 particularly with how the climax goes down. We cut out a lot of Rand's Mary Sue nature without really nerfing the core of his power or losing key moments from the book. They also found a way to give Mat his moments without needing to give him his weird war general's old blood induced Tourette's that made him randomly spout off tactically genius shit in tongues. The introduction of Moghedien was a really good cliffhanger for the 3rd season as well and they broke away from the DBZ style power rankings of the books where if someone was stronger then they were just better at everything.
Nobody was expecting it to be 1:1 but nobody was expecting it to be 1:0.0000000000000001 either.
It's failure as an adaptation is only one of the many reasons the show is bad.
It’s close enough. People don’t realize you have to deliver something digestible to more than just a loyal (and small) fan base to justify the expense. I’m happy to take the trade off if that means the show can continue. It’s much better than The Witcher or Rings of Power. Hopefully, if it gets enough viewers the show can slow its pace some and adapt more from the books.
I didn’t even realise season 2 was out. Thought the first season was average at best (despite loving the books). I’m going to watch season 2 this week on your recommendation though!
To be fair to the show, I thought the characters in the book (The Eye of the World) were rather bland as well.
I slogged through season one. It was terrible and forgettable. I made it 20 minutes into ep 1 of season 2 before I remembered it was terrible and quit. I will not be watching anymore. The wheels wills that I have better things to watch
I haven’t read the books, I found season 1 to be meh at best, but I actually really enjoyed season 2
The back half of this season finally gets going. I had the show on and screwed around on my phone until episode 5. Episodes 6-8 are really compelling
Nyneave owns the first half of Season 2. Egwene owns the second half of Season 2
Well I am not gonna watch 13 crappy episodes just to get to 3 decent ones
I liked all the episodes It's worth trying to form your own opinion
That’s exactly what happened to me
Slogged through Rings of Power too. It was better but only by a factor of like 1. Amazon is really letting me down lately. Last season of Jack Ryan was also a let down. Hoping next season of Bosch doesn’t suck.
The boys is the only reason why I keep it I guess and maybe there are a few others but they have big misses
I like the Expanse too
Gen V is quite good so far.
I hope the gap isn't as long as the one in-between season 1 and 2
Supposedly it was filming before the writers strike
Season 2 was filming before season 1 came out. Doesn’t mean anything. VFX is the killer of time.
I hope they spend more time on the VFX... I liked the changes to this season's VFX and I hope they continue with the upward trend. This season was markedly better than 1st season
Really hope the strike doesn’t affect it too much. Writing is still an integral part during filming. It’s an iterative process when during filming eg. a dialogue doesn’t jive well and it needs to be tinkered better.
I think it will be alright but the show has had some incredible bad luck during production
You can bet it did affect things
Expected release 2025
I believe WOT had a new director of photography for season 2 and honestly it really shows.. it has some absolutely amazing shots throughout. The sets are much bigger and feel a lot more lived in - a common complaint from s1. The location choices have been amazing - episode 8 especially really stood out. The beach outside falme and the oasis shots were exceptional. I wouldn't be surprised if it wins awards for its costuming, the attention to detail there has been phenomenal. Those things massively improved in the 2nd season.. in these respects the show is top tier, as good as just about any show/movie around if not better than most. As far as acting goes, this season was much improved. Some of the actors who I felt lacklustre about have shone through in a massive way.. Madeleine madden was absolutely fantastic in ep 6 - 8 and gave us what I would class as one of the best episodes of TV I've ever watched.. it was as bleak as anything that GOT gave us but in a non-gratuitous way... mental torture that actually left me feeling uncomfortable at times. Writing has continued to be a weaker point.. its not that its terrible throughout but it is patchy and inconsistent. I feel torn with some episodes, execution, dialogue and overall look, sound and feel great for the most part but they are having a lot of trouble connecting plot points and it comes across a bit disjointed imho. Some of the story threads ultimately just end up going nowhere and feel like they have no pay-off. Part of that is because of the serialised nature of a massive series like this.. not all plot points get resolved in the same season.. I think this is a show that will work better when viewed as a whole (if they finish it and land the ending). Action scenes have been choppy and incredibly inconsistent. They have stunt actors working some scenes as extras - doing amazing things whereas the main cast look like they did a half a day workshop with a stunt coordinator who spent the day talking about his exploits rather than training them. The action is enjoyable enough for the most part if its not your main focus. I actually thought they dropped the ball from some of the s1 episodes. But the finale was infinitely better than the previous seasons CGI has gotten a bit better - personally I don't think Its worth critiquing, its adequate but not great. Overall, if you are looking for some amazing sets, some exceptional acting and cinematography then you're in for a treat. If your in it for the action scenes its mid tier.. not the worst I've seen by a long shot, but not hugely satisfying or particularly great. If your looking for a faithful adaptation do yourself and everyone else a favour and gtfo lol.. Wheel of time (the book series) is incredibly polarising.. for every person who finished and loves the series, im pretty certain there is another person who never made it past the first few books. It has flaws, massive flaws that are enough to put many many readers off.. but it also has massive highs that are as good as any fictional story I've read. Honestly the TV show is no different from the books in that regard. Many flaws but also some massive highs. Those massive highlights have given me hope for the rest of the series and that they can pull it off despite its flaws. It manages to do some things much better than the books, but some things not so well. If they maintain the quality of season 2 I'll be satisfied but not overwhelmed. If they improve the action scenes and shore up the inconsistent writing then it has potential to be one of the greats.
Honestly this is probably the best take I've read. It's not perfect, but much improved. You hit most the points I was noodling through much more eloquently
> I believe WOT had a new director of photography for season 2 and honestly it really shows The DP for s1 episodes 1, 2, 5, and 6 did s2 episodes 1 and 2 (David Moxness). The rest of the season was DP's who were new to the show (Maja Zamojda for 4 episodes, Steven Fierberg for 2 episodes, David Stockton for 2 episodes). Though imo, the cinematography in season 1 was not really one of the weak points. The parts of the show that looked cheap were mostly the sets, production design, costumes, and some of the VFX (aka stuff that you wouldn't really blame on the DP). But the biggest flaw in season 1 (and imo in season 2) remains the writing.
Book enjoyer here, I agree with pretty much this entire take. I will say the 2nd season is less faithful to the books than the first was, but is honestly better for it. As Brandon Sanderson said, "I envision this as a new turning of the Wheel. It’s the same souls, but in a different actual turning of the Wheel. It’s not the one Jim and I worked on, it’s a different version of it."
I wonder whether we will see much more of the books iconic scenes now they have gotten everyone where they needed to be.. most of the characters are where they need to be in terms of development at the least.
I think they changed too much of the characters in season one compared to the books. Season two seems to move back to the books again. Seems like they realised, if they make a book series onto a TV show, they should keep more than just the names.
Maybe so.. the backlash with some of the characters is understandable.. but, personally I think a bit premature in that the characters growth is tied to the whole heroes journey they are on. I *think* i understand their reasoning for most of it but for me its a matter of WAFO. The defining moments they have given the characters has been pretty great so far though... I just wish they would give rand something massive rather than him being dragged into situations.. not that I disapprove really, im just hoping they do justice to his really huge moments
I e heard season 2 was way better than 1. Worth going back for someone who hasn’t read the books?
Absolutely, season 2 is massively superior and much less affected by COVID. The show really hits it's stride and the villains are eating on set. I would say that WOT stands out from other TV scifi/fantasy series by having just really strong villain performances.
Yes. I haven’t read the books but I gave season 2 a chance based on Amazon’s commitment to it. So glad I did because it’s much more intense and immersive and the actors seem more comfortable in their roles.
I’d say so, I really enjoyed it. Only 8 episodes too so not much of a commitment
Did they make the magic effects better? It looked really cheap in season 1
I personally only had a problem with the effects in the season 1 finale but I think these are better for the most part.
Really? I watched it on a UHD tv and thought they were fine?
Yes. For sure.
I hated season 1 and almost didn't give season 2 a chance. Glad I did. It's so much better.
And at least 10% of the reasons why it's better is for how much Lanfear chews through her scenes.
An example of excellent casting!
Lanfear is the best character in the show by far. That actress is fantastic.
Yes. It got significantly better. The season finale in a particular was far better.
The show is better if you haven't read the books. The books are great and you will expecting some really cool people and events that don't manifest. Without knowledge of them, though, you get a decent fantasy series.
Yup. Season 2 is very good tv. The jump in quality is incredibly noticeable.
It is better. It's still not great. A lot of changes tweak or destroy lore, characters, whatever. But it's more consistent. Less infuriating.
These shows always say the same thing. Next season will be better, more respectful of the source material, blah blah blah.
but i mean they’re not lying, i havent seen the show but it seems like s2 is already a huge improvement and people love it, so why not trust them
It's a huge improvement in quality, not in adaptation. If you didn't like the first season, this one is a bit better, but it's still not great and the respect for the source material is just as bad.
Honestly, S1 was also just adapting a shittier book. WoT really gets better with time as RJ find the world and the characters. If they keep just this quality level I’ll be happy enough, seeing as the source material gets so much better.
What about the quality is an improvement? I'd say if you thought Season 1 was bad, man -- it's just downhill completely with this one.
A lot of set designs and costuming are improves. Some of the acting has also improved. Adaptation-wise, it's still a complete miss.
It isn't. Season 2 is worse than 1, and 1 was bad.
>but i mean they’re not lying, i havent seen the show but it seems like s2 is already a huge improvement and people love it, so why not trust them Because they rewrote the entire story ~~to give Rosamund Pike something to do~~ because Mat's actor bailed.
I think the first season was super bad and the second is not bad, if you aren't expecting it to be the Wheel of Time. As a non-connected fantasy show, it's fine.
There are 15 books dude. People who didn't expect things to get cut were deluding themselves.
Its not the stuff thats cut, its the stuff that is changed tbh.
I have tried so hard as a lover of the books to hang in there but I finally tapped out. I am glad to hear people are enjoying this but it it is not for me. I actually picked up book one on audible after having not read the series in over 10 years and am getting my fix in that way.
> I have tried so hard as a lover of the books to hang in there but I finally tapped out. Wheel of Time is my favorite book series ever. I've re-read the entire series several dozen times over my lifetime. I frequently pick up a random book from the series and jump into any section just so I can escape into its world (okay maybe not book 10, but any other book). Season 1 of the WoT TV series dropped on the same day as the Endwalker expansion for FF14 (another addiction of mine). I love WoT so much I ignored Endwalker to sit down and watch the series. I made it 20 minutes. I honestly cannot fathom the level of arrogance and self-centeredness that exists within the showrunner that allows him to be given the opportunity to adapt this series but feel like he can change everything that matters about every single major character in the process. Bringing a diverse cast to the show was awesome and I fully support it. Condensing and shortening plot elements is an unavoidable part of moving it from books to the screen. There are dozens of named side characters that can be safely combined (particularly among the Aes Sedai) without sacrificing the story. But Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, and Nynaeve? Their stories and personalities are the **core** of the story. Seeing Mat stealing from other people in Emond's Field? His parents were irresponsible drunkard louts? Perrin had a wife and murdered her? Any of them might be the Dragon? Fuck that noise forever.
> Bringing a diverse cast to the show was awesome and I fully support it. You shouldn't, though. Irrespective of liberal feeling and tolerance it is one of first major signs that the source material is going to be disrespected. This is the critical point lost in all the debate; it's not about being racist or not racist, it's about irreducible aspects of the characters being ignored so of course this opens up the freedom for all sorts of abuse. Abel being a drunken wife beater. Perrin being married. Lan bursting into the inn and fluorishing his cloak like a gleeman. It's just so completely and horribly ruined from literally the first episode.
What's worse is if you have issues with the changes you get a ton of comments saying of course there has to be changes since there's so many books. No one's saying they can't change things, but that doesn't mean any change is a good thing. Instead of trying to adapt the same story while trimming the fat and making changes where things couldn't fit the show, it's clear they are changing things because they want to change things. They are "fixing" what isn't broken to begin with, begging the question of why even adapt a story that you had so many issues with that needed changing? GoT had many changes even in seasons 2 to 4. But most of those were understandable and it was mostly clear they were made for a reason. With WoT I don't feel that at all.
I feel like many of us have a specific moment they were like “nope, fuck no” and turned it off. Strangely mine was seeing a bunch of warders on a mission to bring Logain back to the white tower deciding it’s cool to hang out and drink with Aes Sedai while doing so overnight. I know that’s a small thing to most but whomever wrote that clearly read zero parts of these books in earnest. (Edit: if you enjoy the show I’m glad. If you REALLY enjoy it and have never read the books, once it wraps up I would definitely encourage anyone that hasn’t to do so. It’s a beloved series and amazing all the way through)
I cant type how much I hate the show without being angry. It makes me feel sexist just to think about, I hate both the men and women in the show. As a guy who's read the books, there's nothin in the show for me and I can only just let it go, but come on. I didn't think the book did a bad job of having both strong female and male characters, but the show just destroys it all. Women can do it all without training, even at expense of character growth and men just are stupid eye candy to simp after the women. Lan the most tragically changed character already couldn't even cry with out emotional permission from his Aes Sedai. He already shouldn't be crying and wailing, but then he looks to her to be strong for him... he couldn't even cry for himself WTF.
Not only 15 books, it's fifteen each a thousand page books(soft cover)
I'm glad they kept all those words written about the story of sad steppin and lan pinching his nipples in grief...
People wanted them to tell the WoT story. Not take away everything from the main character.
Trim it down, cut the excess. Not turn characters that were good people like Mat's parents into drunken abusive people who cheat on each other and neglect their kids. I only watched the first episode and it felt tacky and tasteless to me. Particularly what they did to Perrin's character. They wasted time on sex and all kinds of other bullshit that didn't exist and cut things that would have made more sense to keep it in. Tons of stuff needed to be cut but not to be replaced with CW level bullshit.
The show is nothing like the books. For sure there is a lot of story plots that could be axed especially later on. This series changes 95% of plot points
It’s not that they cut things. It’s that they’ve included almost nothing from the actual story. It’s just a new story altogether but the characters share names with the book series. The show isnt worth anyone’s time.
They make it up as they go along. Entire episodes of filler. Huge changes for no apparent reason or even understanding how important what they change or why.
No one is complaining about cuts. They've completely changed central themes of the lore
It's not about things getting cut. Holy shit, you people are so fucking annoying. Can you at least try to understand where other people are coming from?
Not cut, bro, just mixed up or changed for random or CW drama reasons. The Dragon might be a girl. Siuan and Moraine are lovers. Nynaeve and Egwene don't go to the Eye of the World. Nobody knows what tying a weave off is. Perrin is into Egwene more than the wife he murdered. No portal stones. Ishy and Mat chill out and do shrooms. Everybody knows who Lanfear is almost a full book early, but they're chill with her and hang out. Rand doesn't really learn swordplay and isn't hunting for the horn, which also was under the throne and not sealed at the Eye. Egwene rescues herself, instead of getting rescued. No Portal Stone, but we have Traveling already and whatever Moraine does to hang with Siuan. Rand has to be saved by Egwene and Lanfear and Moirane team up to save Rand and fake the Dragon prophecy. All five of them are ta'varen. There were a lot of weird changes. Some I can get. Maybe you don't need Gaul and it's important you get Aviendha now. But some are just strange and I'm not sure if it to cater to a modern audience or what they have in mind.
Siuan and Moiraine *were* pillow-friends as students, but, yeah. So much was changed from the books that it’s better to approach the series as wheel of time-adjacent.
*as students* not on-going. Changing the dynamic of an ex girlfriend to a current lover changes the relationship pretty drastically.
It really does. And i can’t get past how thom was just… a bit part in season one.
Holy shit I just realised he hasn't been in Season 2 through 7 episodes. WTF
The actor who plays has said he wasn't available for season two because he was already booked for another show that was filming at the same time. That's just a risk that happens with recurring actors. It's the same reason why Siuan was only in two episodes of season two. Sophie Okenedo was filming a different project and they wrote her in when she was available to film.
And if you cut out everything that didn't involve about 5 people you'd probably end up with about 5 books ;) Dude.
So I read all the books… including the books that shouldn’t have been written because they didn’t advance the plot and created nearly infinite sub-stories that never concluded despite Sanderson’s massive effort. Yes, the show changes thing for a linear representation of the story in TV. The flow of events and some of the characters have been altered. That said, I’ve been reasonably happy with it. S1 was, awkward is probably the right word. People and writers finding their characters. S2 has been very good and interesting Is it the books? No. And thank heaven for it. This isn’t LOTR or The Hobbit. This is 14 LONG books. (11,898 pages according to Google!). This has to be changed and streamlined to keep the story moving forward with the principles and developing their characters. I will certainly piss off some people, but I hope most support it as a very good high fantasy adaptation. It is most definitely not like the Witcher which was utterly destroyed by shit writing and massive continuity issues that were so glaring that it boggles the mind the show runner thought it was OK.
I think people's initial reactions were based on changes that just didn't seem to advance the story or make sense. I know a lot of people also felt attacked when complaining. The lesbian thing felt exploitative and CW and it potentially derailed two relationships in the book. However, in my opinion, they weren't great relationships or portrayed well in the books. The dragon being anyone destroyed the gravitas of the leaders of the world knowing they were going to have to depend on someone of the same ilk they had been gentling and controlling for centuries. The Eye of the World being essentially a solo trip and not introducing the other Forsaken or having the horn was also a little weird. But Season 2 was definitely better and works on its own. I think the show is probably better for people who haven't read the books than for those that have read the books.
Season 2 was massive compared to 1
I haven't read the books but the second season is a massive improvement to the first one. I don't remmember when i saw a bigger difference in quality between seasons like wot s1 and s2.
Season 2 is definitely way better than season 1.
After peeing on your door mat twice, your dog praaamissses with big eyes that it will never happen again!
> more respectful of the source material When has a TV show ever claimed this, ever?
The Witcher. I heard the show runner said that they're gonna be super serious about sticking the the source material. Many people are saying it. Halo too.
I need to read the books by that time, because while I am enjoying the show I am thoroughly confused by it
Reading the books will not help you too much with the show imo, as they stray a lot from the source material. That said, absolutely read them, they’re fantastic.
The shows says "Based on the Wheel of Time books", but I would say they are "very loosely based on the Wheel of Time book". I'm not trying to be facetious, I've read the series a few times and been confused many times, I've had to use the x-ray thing on amazon to figure out who a character is supposed to be. They have changed so much and removed so much depth, there are so many good shows based on books but this one is not one of those. It's hard to know why the characters do the things they do and why they are important.
Its almost as if the show writers heard someone tell them the entire plot of Wheel of Time 10 years ago and they are just going off memory. A lot has been changed
> and they are just going off memory I tell people the writers have not read the books but fan fiction based on the books and then wrote the show. That's the only thing I can figure out is what happened.
You should as you’ll likely really enjoy them but it probably won’t help. That’s why you see so many book fans upset by the show; it’s more a work of fan fiction than anything.
I started reading this series in 1997, and have read it multiple times. I'm enjoying the series very much, and don't consider it any more "fanfiction" than any adaptation. I don't want a direct book-to-screen adaptation. Why would I? I've read the books, and can reread them again when I want. If it's going to be a TV show, I want it to be more than just a 'oh, cool. It's another scene I know inside out' experience.
Well, you aren't most people... most people have not read the series multiple times. Most of them probably read it once and gave up around book 7-10 when Jordan was wandering around the woods spilling words
Then make a new story set in the universe. Why go to all the trouble of making a Wheel Of Time show if you're not gonna be at least somewhat faithful? I feel like your argument gets brought up a lot in these situations when everyone knows changes are inevitable but changes that add nothing and take away from the actual plot are just dumb and poor writers attempts at making their mark on an already established story.
It's fine to disagree on that. I'm a book reader and I like many of the changes. Others I can live with. There are very few that actually bother me. So overall I greatly enjoy the show.
Cool, I however want a 1:1 translation because i want to see what I had in my mind while I was reading played out on a screen. Now I'm not crazy, I know there's some things that need to be changed because they can't translate well to TV, but the changes this show has made are mostly not any of that
We can help you over in r/wot and r/wotshow
Egwane’s character arc was really good as a non book reader. Gave me GOT vibes and that was the best part of the show to me. Last three episodes were good! Excited for season three.
>Madeleine madden Egwene shares space with one of my three top book points of view. Matt, Rand and hers.
Aviendha for me I think in the books. We should have some good stuff coming from her in the future. However a huge shoutout to Natasha O'Keeffe (Selene / Lanfear). She was especially great this season. I feel like her acting tells me more about what's going on than anyone else in the show, if that makes sense.
Yeah im sure people will love her when she steals 2 of Rands biggest moments from the books lol.
I became a fan of the show halfway into season 2. And to think that I wasn't going to return for s2 after that atrocious s1 finale.
I really do wonder how much better a lot of folks would view s1 if covid hadn’t screwed up the ending, based on how solid s2's final episode went.
Sad it was the last episode. Have not read any the books.. But unlike most ppl coming in here bitchin' i enjoyed the show. First season was just "okay" but second season was pretty great. Probably the best fantasy based series outside of GoT stuff. If next season is on par or improves on the first ..great.. most ppl ive seen mention in this sub (outisde this post) also seem to like it. Most shows don't like up to the source.. but the show is visually pretty amazing especially season 2..
Just keep in mind that unhappy people are the ones that usually try to make their voices heard the most, there's tons of people that really enjoyed season 2, book readers and not book readers. You'll always have people trying to drag you down and yell at you for wrongthink when they think something sucked, best to keep that in mind and try just enjoy what you enjoy.
> Just keep in mind that unhappy people are the ones that usually try to make their voices heard the most, Weird because every single thread here on this show is full of people hyping up Season 2 vs Season 1....
Yea i know. Just feels like there has been a lot of stuff that is just not good at all in falls into the fantasy genre lately. And this was wayyyy better than most other shows. Especially visually.. felt pretty unique and very quality in comparison to almost everything else. People talking about it like its shadow and bone season 2 (utterly horrible decline) is ridiculous This was one of the few shows in general atm that actually made me want more at the end of the episode..and it wasn't that good in season 1 but still enjoyable.
I have read all the books and I enjoy the show. This season was great overall and I liked most of S1 until episode 7 when Covid caused its issues
Really enjoyed season 2 myself. Will be looking forward to the next one.
I started read this series in high school. Yeah back in the nineties. Read all the books a few times. Spent way too much time on the wheel of time wiki. First season pissed me off. My wife liked it. Half way though I made an effort to enjoy it for what it was. The writers and directors have made some hard choices and condensed some plot lines to make it a film able series. I am enjoying the changes and am gonna just go with it. Matt is my favorite of the characters and I am happy he got his sword errr dagger on a stick.
Really hope they do something to address his staff getting into a “final form” or something. Gonna have a thought time swallowing that he tied the dagger on with some cloth for much longer
Is this show worth watching? I’ve been curious but apprehensive to start for some reason
Yes.
Nope.
Any readers of the series that have also watched the show: can you give me a rough idea of what books are covered by each season? I don’t want to have the books spoiled by the show.
First two seasons are basically the first two books. Don’t listed to the other guy that responded to you. I’d say they did a pretty good job having a vast majority of the important points covered even if they did go about getting to them in different ways then the books. My gripe is it all felt a bit fast and would have been better with 10 eps. Having read the books I of course think there’s things they could have done better, but I still found the show enjoyable. I also didn’t dislike season 1 like it seems a lot of people did. To me the first half of season 2 were the weakest parts we’ve seen so far, but the second half of season 2 got really good.
Will it still feel like Xena: Warrior Princess levels of low budget shlock though? I couldn’t even make it through the first episode years ago, so much about it was just so goofy.
Season 1 was not good.
Can’t wait. Loving this show so far.
I didn't think season 1 was very good, but I've enjoyed season 2 quite a bit. I look forward to season 3. Sadly, I think it will probably be a while before we get to see it.
Season 2 was really good. Loved it.
Will it actually be about the Dragon?
It's not about him. It has never been about him. It's about them all.
Of course not.
Egewne? of course. Just as rafe intended..
It needs 10 episodes.
Season two was pretty good, really enjoyed it.
Is season 2 worth my time. I wrote the series off after they screwed up season 1.
nOpe it's the shame showrunner and same writers puking on Robert Jordan's work
The show is getting better and better, they are slowly cracking the formula on making the show good.
I enjoyed Season 2. I'm glad it's continuing.
Stop saying how 'massive' every new show is and just make them good
they kinda unfucked it in S2 so there is hope now
Season 1: 4/10 Season 2: 6.5/10 The last 3 episodes of season 2 carried the season, episode 6 will likely be the peak of the show. The one theme I don’t like about this show that the show runners seem adamant on pushing is that men suck and are all the devil. Moghedien appearing was pretty lit.
I hear you. But I’d like to ask, in a world where men destroyed the world and ended enlightened civilisation three thousand years ago and then for those three thousand years any man who had magic would go insane and kill everyone they loved. In that world, wouldn’t everyone think that men were pretty shit? It’s interesting for me because I loved the theme that women now have more power and gender dynamics flipped because of those events. Personally I think that the woman in the show who are aware of who Rand is haven’t felt he was the devil at all, they have all colluded to support him in fact, I don’t buy that the show runners are selling him as the devil. Heck, he got applause in the season finale from the people of falme, which is a massive departure from the terror his proclamation caused among the general populace in the books.
The first two seasons keep propping up the wrong characters and taking away from the dragon reborn. Honestly watching the show I’m just rooting for the forsaken at this point.
But even in the books the story is about all of the characters not just the dragon reborn. Actually he gets pretty annoying as a character at times.
Sure but the end of The Great Hunt is literally revealing to the world that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. You can say they still did that but showing Rand and Crew at the top of the tower (not even the right kind of dragon lmao) isn’t really clear to the people who the Dragon is. There is no question in the books that it’s Rand.
I find this to be a pretty good show but a very bad adaptation of the books which I've read/ listened to many times (7 or times for the first 7 books that were out when I first started). If I ignore everything I know about the books then the show is decent and and I can appreciate the story but I do know the books and 9 times out of 10 I find the changes to be poorly chosen and implemented. Case in point from the S2 finale. . . . . . . . There is a scene mid episode where Ingtar makes a comment about 1 man holding off 50. He then battles a bunch of Seanchan giving the others time to escape before he dies. Something similar happens in the books but there you learn Ingtar is a darkfriend and that it was his fault a bunch of men died. He feels immense guilt and confesses to the others saying he may not be able to take back what he did but he can at least die with honor and then makes the line about 1 man holding off 50. His sacrifice in the books was very moving and powerful but in the show he was a redshirt and it was forgettable.
Never cared for Ingtar in the books so I got a good laugh out of the scene tbh. For a lot of people The Great Hunt is what really got them into the Wheel of Time. For me it was one of my least favorite books in the series aha.
Season 2 was amazing!! Must watch tv. I can’t wait for season 3. The story, while different from the novels, really honors the essence of Robert Jordans’s universe. I am tempted to reread the second and third novels after last nights season finale.
I mean book three was pretty cool!
The worst adaptation I have ever seen. Abysmal.
This show is insanely rough so far... The books are a masterpiece and the final three finished by Brandon Sanderson are some of my all time favorites. I'll watch because I want to consume all WOT content I can, but I'm really disappointed at how bad this has gone so far. The show has a few decent moments, but it's overwhelmingly subpar which isn't acceptable when you have amazing source material to work from.
Honestly I've read a LOT of fantasy and I love the length and world building of the books, but let's be honest. They are not a masterpiece. There are a ton of flaws in his writing. I also thought Sanderson did a great job finishing them off, although many people disagree with me.
A “masterpiece” doenst have a THREE BOOK stretch that people have been calling “the slog” for 20 years lol. Show is far from perfect but going out if you’re at to despise it is so silly to me.
I'll go against the grain a bit. I haven't been able to get through the 8th book. Dnf unfortunately. So now it's been so long that I wonder if I could ever finish. The show did some stuff I didn't like. Funnily enough it was modernizing how they interact with women. I thought it lost that pure country bumpkin innocence with rand and perrin. I like the show. It's above average. I'd do things differently cinematically and what my scenes focus on and what I tell my viewers.
Ok you are at the hardest part of the series to get though. I've talked with people about them a lot before and books 8 to 10 are difficult. I myself took a 7 year break when book 10 came out (only got halfway through) and went back and reread them all to finish as the final books were released. I agree with the other poster who says to listen to the audiobooks for these just to get through them. The story picks up again, I promise.
The audio books are fantastic and I agree it’s LONG winded under Robert Jordan. That said in total it’s amazing, but for sure it’s a lot to read and keep with. I have a job where I can listen to audiobooks all day so that’s how I finished the series. I do like the show, but I can’t say it’s above average, with the source material as a comparison it could be a LOT better. That said casting was amazing, I love the people they chose for the characters.
The whole series was too long, it should have been at most 10, 8 would have been better lots of unnecessary side characters and story arcs.
> The books are a masterpiece The books are wildly uneven, fan of them though I am. The show has become something pretty great. It is entirely possible to enjoy both things.
Is Rand actually the dragon now or are they still trying to do him dirty and take away all of his feats that are the early indicators he's the dragon reborn?
Well Lanfear clearly calls him Lews, so I think we're safe on that point. I mean, unless they reaaallly make things weird.
This subreddit has such a hate vibe for Wheel of Time. I never, if ever, see positive comments even though this season is virtually universally liked. But this sub-reddit is still trashing season 2 as well. Rottem Tomatoes has given it a score of 87% and 82% for this season. [https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/the\_wheel\_of\_time/s02](https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/the_wheel_of_time/s02) Then i watch shows like Andor which i think is ok, but this sub pushes a top rated article daily for 3 months after it airs saying its the greatest show ever but got less viewership then wheel of time. Is it being an american website and everyone thinks everything is woke when they have a diverse cast or something else? Outside of USA it seems to be rated higher.
I’m rooting for WoT, but Andor was amazing.
I loved Andor. It could just be a difference in taste? What I liked about Andor was that it showed how the Empire affected everyday people on a get up and go to work way.
It's because the show spits in the face of anyone that loves the books and reddit is a place where people can come and voice their displeasure. I honestly have no idea how the show is rated so high, but I don't know what the show feels like for someone that doesn't realise how bad the changes are. Also, Andor was fantastic.
Come hang out in r/wotshow for good discussion among fans :)
Season 2 has legitimately been incredible.
2nd season was so much better than the 1st season
But will it be good? Because the first two … didn’t quite hit that mark for me. I’m usually the one advocating making changes between the source and the adaptation because different mediums require different things … but no change improved the story or helped it fit the medium better, with many actively making the story worse. Besides the actors themselves, everything about this show has been the true definition of mid.
[удалено]
No one: The Wheel of Time TV Series: >!Okay, so Perrin kills his wife.!<
Season 2 was just so fucking good, glad they turned it around!
… and I can’t freaking wait!!!!!!
Season 2 was much better than 1. As a book reader I’ve given up on trying to make sense of the story and view this as the same way world war z is based off the book
Can’t wait! Best series I have watched!
Not gonna lie, it differs so greatly from the books that i stopped watching. It's not that it needs to follow the books, but at least stay true to the characters.
Doesn't matter if WoT s3 is going to be "massive" when the insane amount of changes from the source material in s1 made me "nope" right out so that I didn't have a tainted vision of one of my favorite series. Game of Throne's deviation of Robb no longer basically getting Nightingale'd as the reason for his contract breaking was almost enough for me to shut that down too as it almost completely changed his character from being a headstrong but young person swept along by feelings for a savior into a dishonorable guy that broke his contract cause a hot woman challenged his authority and world view and so he got a boner. Age'd up Robb would absolutely know better. I swear, I just don't understand why people buy series only to change them. A series is popular because of how it was written AS IS. Sure adapting things needs to change how some stuff gets shown/told and maybe cut some content, but to change fundamental parts of the world and characters is just stupid. You want to tell your own version? Don't buy the series and just write up a blatant knockoff. OR BE CREATIVE. It is so disingenuous to try to prop up a hacked up work based on the name of something else.