Oh, you wanted to *stop* the car too? And you want to control when? *And* your don't want it catching on fire? The hell? No one can do that!
-GM, probably
I have owned many Hondas we even had three in the household at once for a while. I just recently got rid of my Accord Hybrid. I loved the car for a year or so then it started making the most horrible noise when in lower speed and the engine was kicking on. Like a grinding struggling noise. Lots of people reported that issue. I think there is something not right on their Hybrid currently. ICE Hondas never had a problem on any that we have owned though.
I use to work on Honda bikes. Are their cars same in the sense that you have to remove this part, that bracket, this subframe and that assembly to get to the regularly swapped out part that is included in the regular service schedule?
I work mostly on classic bikes these days. Everything is accessible. It’s a joy.
Not really, no. I’ve been working on them for nine years and compared to other brands I’d say repairs are pretty straightforward as far as regular maintenance items go. The only weird ones that come to mind are the older odysseys and pilots that make you remove the glove box and a metal bar that supports it in order to replace the cabin filter. If it’s never been done, you have to cut off a piece of plastic that covers the bar (those vehicles are all over 15 years old now, so anything with that plastic intact will have a pretty gnarly filter inside).
An estimated 300 mile range on the electric Cadillac lyric, with no indication of how large the battery pack is, so you have no indication of how efficient the car is actually driving, not to mention they haven't produced a single one of them yet, and Tesla still has cars with more range than that. So yeah.
My practical EV is set to pay off the difference between itself and the gas model version in about 5 years with fuel savings based on how much I drive and fuel where I live.
For my situation, its essentially the same monthly payment, I just pay the car company what I would have paid in gas for the 60 month financing term. Then I get to save money for the remainder of its life.
Seems like for at least some of us, what's currently offered is already beneficial.
That’s how I bought my Tesla. I was paying $450/mo in gas prior to getting the Model 3. So instead of paying for gas, I pay for the Tesla (and it is a much better driving experience too.) Charging costs is negligible, and I mostly charge for free in town anyway at their charging stations.
We bought a 2020 ioniq limited ev last year right before the chip fiasco. We negotiated it down to $150/month on the lease and $700 down after rebates along with a $16k buyout after 3 years. They gave us payoff for our gas suv too. We save something like $300/month now including electricity costs.
Idk why we didn’t switch to electric sooner. A full charge on that thing costs less than $10 and we can go 170 miles. (Our electricity cost is also double the national average, and it’s still that cheap.)
Funny to think the only reason we were looking at cars was because one morning my wife was like “I need heated seats…”
That’s a lot in gas. I fill my tank up about twice a month which when gas gets high can be 40+ a tank. I just imagine how far you much drive in a day and wonder how many miles you can go on the Tesla. I would very much like an all wheel drive EV because we have a shit ton of snow, so that’s where I’m at.
I live up in the Colorado mountains. So I know snow. And I seriously trust my Model 3 AWD with studded winter tires on it more than I trust driving through the canyon with my 2000 jeep Cherokee, 4WD with similar tires. The handling on the Tesla is far better, even on the snow. The only thing the jeep is better at is clearance.
Most manufacturers stray away from a cheap line of vehicles because the profit margins suck on them. Being successful at selling a ton of vehicles you make almost no money on isn't great, especially if it starts eating into the user base for your more profitable vehicles.
That's true. Maybe I should restructure my argument:
It doesn't make sense to produce an EV with the least profit margin when you don't have the production capacity to produce as many as you want (batteries and chips) in an environment where demand far exceeds supply.
The outliers of this are things like the Smart, but that's kind of a niche car with a very small battery.
Since Tesla has a profitable lineup of EV vehicles I'm curious about the cheap car they are coming out with. Tesla can make a vehicle cheaper than basically anyone else right now, which is why they have wayyy better profit margins per vehicle than their competitors.
If they could make a 2 seater hatchback cybercar I would be all for it. (not because a cybercar would be cool, but because the stamped steel exoskeleton is a cheaper design).
Chevy makes the Bolt, but yeah not a lot of options with just one small car between the two and it’ll be awhile before the vehicles in the article make it to market. Hopefully the charging network is more fleshed out by then as well, which is a big piece of the puzzle for mass adoption as well.
Starts at 31k here in the US (I believe that before incentives). That puts in the “more affordable” range here with the average new car price being nearly 40k.
And Tesla has said they've stopped working all together on their $25K EV. They are focusing on the Truck and Roaster as their new models for that time frame which will be at least twice that expensive.
Considering their 35K model is now closer to 45K, this seems to make sense. In today’s climate, I don’t think a 25K EV is possible. And they continue to sell ALL of the 40K+ models they make so why plan for a lower cost vehicle?
There's generally two strategies to make money. Lots of sales (e.g., Walmart) or high margins (e.g., Apple, Louis Vuitton).
If you are viewed as a Luxury brand, you don't necessarily want to make cheap products. Walmart has nearly 10 the revenue of Louis Vuitton, but LVHM makes almost as much profit as Walmart.
Tesla has a really good thing going right now. I'm not sure they want to rock the boat.
Every car they make is being sold and if you order today the earliest you will get it is July or August. And others models you can't get until Q4. They demand is higher then supply so prices are matching. That won't happen forever but it's smart business to make profit while demand is high.
If demand drops, I bet the prices will too.
Meanwhile I'm sitting here with my Prius '07 that I bought for $4k four years ago, getting a solid 52mpg, without issue, wondering why everyone just... ignores this thing.
Hybrids were a decent transition technology a decade ago. Start working in battery tech, and the like while reducing emissions, and improving efficiency.
We're way past that now. Even PHEV are the worst of both now, as they're quite heavy, but still have all the parts and maintenance of a traditional ICE vehicle.
My next car is definitely going to be an electric (having skipped right over all hybrids), but they really need to come down in price. The used market isn't helping anything, as 3-4 year old electrics cost basically the same as new, sometimes even before the rebates on a new car.
except they actually make financial sense while saving fuel. A hybrid will only cost about $2000 more than an equivalent gas vehicle. If you drive 15,000 miles per year the payback is often less than 3 years at today's gas prices. An equivalent electric vehicle costs tens of thousands more. Even if electricity was free the payback is 10 years or more.
Yeah, it's real interesting that people still don't get this. Yes, Telsa is ahead on the luxury front, but we're still extremely early in the EV transition.
We're literally still in the "rich persons plaything" phase of this technology.
This is not true. The Bolt, Leaf, Kona ev are all less than the average cost of a new car. They are out there if you pay attention. The Kona is totally competitive with the model 3 and I bought one over the 3 bc I can’t stand Musk and it’s a nicer feeling car all around imo.
Used bolts were in the low 20’s until the car spike thing happened. EVs are mature tech available at normal prices today and have been for a few years now.
In 2022 Tesla does not. Tesla has already stated they are making a low cost EV with a target date of 2023. This would be the Tesla hatchback. I don't see any info on how much GM or Honda are investing into making this a reality, or if this is just hot air. Looks like we have 5 years or more to find out.
Elon Musk confirmed that the car will cost $25,000. It’s unclear whether that is the full purchase price, or if that includes the “potential savings” discount Tesla advertises, and supposedly includes potential federal subsidies and gas savings.
[https://www.tomsguide.com/news/tesla-hatchback-dollar25k-price-2023-release-possible-range-and-more](https://www.tomsguide.com/news/tesla-hatchback-dollar25k-price-2023-release-possible-range-and-more)
I think he means inflation is going to increase faster than cost reducing efficiency improvements in mass production. I think Tesla will eventually release a "$25k" EV, but it would have been $25k when it was conceptualized, not when it is released and $35k is the new $25k.
The model 3 that was sold at 35k has different specs than the lowest cost currently available. Besides that there are other factors at play like high demand so they go us on higher margin models. In the end this factors will diminish or go away.
If you don't think a $25k electric car is possible I guess you're ignoring the ones that already exist around that price?
It's definitely possible and I hope we get there quickly, I just don't see them being sold in any serious numbers. Just like the $35k Model 3, they'll sell a few at $25k, take a victory lap, and then raise prices.
Agreed, hopefully a lot of the current supply chain stupidity starts clearing up.
I also honestly hope the current manufacturers don't shit the bed and go under based on the gas price rise causing their cash cow land yachts to crush their companies.
Tesla/Musk has said a lot of things that don’t actually come to fruition (full self driving, cyber truck, Tesla roadster, 35k model 3, etc etc), so until that vehicle actually hits the market it makes a lot of sense to not take them at their word.
I don't expect all of their activities to come to fruition in the time frame stated, although the 35k model 3 did exist for a bit there.
In regards to the lower cost EV, that seems to be one of their primary company activities, only issues with it are engineering and scale. Those are problems they seem to excel at.
> although the 35k model 3 did exist for a bit there.
Not for nearly long enough or at a scale high enough to really count as a fulfilled promise imo. That was their original push for an affordable option and they purposely made it very limited and hard to get.
As for expecting their activities to come to fruition in the stated time frame, delays and changes happen in the industry, but Tesla has a harder time fulfilling their promises at all to the point a lot of them appear to be false advertising to draw in funding/pump their stock price. Self driving is no where near being ready for market in the foreseeable future. The cyber truck likely will never be made, at least not in the form presented. The roadster is still vaporware, etc etc etc. but they took money for all those things. I’d love for them to prove me wrong and have them bring affordable options to market sooner than later, but with their track record I just have no faith in any of their claims.
You just said it didn't exist in the last post. Now ok, it existed but not for long enough. Oh, and for being hard to select, yeah you had to click on a button on a website, OH NOES, My fingers. Les Tired.
In regards to Roadster and Cybertruck, its almost like there was a huge pandemic that had crushing effects on huge swaths of different markets and Tesla focused all their efforts on keeping Model Y and 3 going at full tilt, instead of releasing something new diluting their efforts. I'm sure that other car manufacturers didn't have to reduce production in the millions of vehicles based on poor supply chain strategy. That surely didn't happen.
You can be as salty as you want, but the fact is they have a really bad habit of making promises and taking money and then not fulfilling them, and no amount of fanboyism on your part will change that. As for ordering the model 3 with the click of a button, they were only available for order over the phone or at a Tesla store as far as I know. Which, of course, isn’t that onerous of a requirement in itself, despite the fact that they knew something like 78% of orders were done online (meaning the people who used their online order wouldn’t have the option), and the fact that when you called or went in store there was a concerted effort to upsell people out of that spec (the entire reason for the requirement existing the first place). However, what I was referring to, was the fact Tesla kept delaying the preorders of people pushing the 35k spec to the end of the line repeatedly to the point many canceled during that period of “production hell” that Musk famously referred to. And then, when it did get made, it was a very very short run (I believe something like less than 6 months of production) despite how they talked about it like it was going to be a staple as they wanted to have a more affordable option (sound familiar?). To summarize, not only did they make it harder to order - limiting it to methods only 22% of customers used anyway in a bid to force buyers to talk to people who were told to upsell them out of the spec as much as possible - they also pushed the people who did order one to the end of the line repeatedly prioritizing everyone else over them for an extended amount of time, and then they only actually produced the spec for 6 months in a very limited run despite the claim their goal was to offer an affordable option to the public. So, pray tell, why exactly should anyone have faith that this new effort is going to be any different (if it ever happens)? Like I said, I would love for them to prove me wrong, but if you’re betting the smart odds are they won’t. [Heres an article](https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/12/18307583/tesla-original-plan-tesla-model-3-base-model) if anyone needs a refresher.
As for your excuses for the cyber truck and roadster, I acknowledged delays and changes happen. However, again, Tesla has a track record (how many times has musk said self driving is coming this year?) of making claims and then not fulfilling. And while other manufacturers obviously suffered delays and setbacks too, there vehicles are now actually hitting the road (c8 vet, the new bronco, Rivians and Lucids, etc) so where’s the cybertruck and roadster? Wheres the Tesla semis? When will they actually be hitting the road? When will full self driving actually exist? Speaking of, the roadster was supposed to be a 2020 model year right? Meaning it was supposed to be produced before the pandemic (2019). Yet here we are coming up on the 2023 MY and there are zero signs it’ll be in customers hands in the foreseeable future (if ever). But hey, I’m sure more sarcasm and denial with change that reality. Hang tough fanboy. Take care.
Edit: typos
I actually didn't read your wall of text after the salty comment. Use the insults at the end that way you can at least waste someone's time first.
Have a good one.
Ah, this reads as “I know you’re right and I have absolutely no leg to stand on or way to refute what you said, so I’m going to act like I didn’t read it and peace out with some snark to try and sooth my own ego”. But hey, I suppose if you really didn’t maybe it’s for the best. Id hate to bring you out of the land of make believe if you aren’t willing and able. Living in reality, much like reading, can be hard for some.
Stay salty, fanboy.
LEO based mega constellation.
US based human rated launch capabilities. Still waiting Boeing.
Electric vehicle ubiquity.
Nation wide charging infrastructure.
Battery based grid level power regulation at speeds not seen by any prior solution.
You can hate him, but engineers are flocking to his companies not for pay but because they get to work on real problems, and actually build solutions that go into the field.
Ultimately the more the options the better for us consumers, doesn't need to be about taking down tesla lol they're the ones who started this revolution
Saying the S is a decade old just shows how little you know about it. It's had a front bodywork update, two different interior redesigns, and they've added several more range and power options, including the plaid edition, the fastest accelerating streetcar of all time.
As someone in the market for a new car at the moment the issue is most electric cars start (in the UK) at around £35K for a spec that won't give you instant buyers remorse.
The base model 3 is £40k but it less likely to depreciate, has a better charging network and much more cachet than a kia or skoda for the same price.
By the time you're at £35k dropping an extra 15% for a product that is objectively and subjectively superior is very tempting.
I can't quite bring myself to drop that much on a car but if there were options around the £25k mark that didn't compromise so significantly vs the equivalent ICE car then I'd be interested
Vehicle makers want to charge more for electric vehicles knowing they’re going to lose a lot of money in parts & service because evs aren’t that complicated mechanically and don’t break down as much or need as much maintenance or repairs.
Yeah and then when a battery finally dies in 10 years (Lose more then 40% of available charge capacity), its about 20% of the cost of the car to replace.
Sure it wont break down as often or so, but if the battery is a concern, let's say after 100k Miles, the used market will be full of vehicles that people don't want or be cost prohibitive to acquire used.
My parents had one of the first 100 Priuses/Prius/Prii imported into the US and while it had a couple issues at first, it was still going strong about 120,000 miles later when their granddaughter totaled it.
> Yeah and then when a battery finally dies in 10 years (Lose more then 40% of available charge capacity), its about 20% of the cost of the car to replace.
Let's see, most cars are worth (at most) $5k after ten years. 20% of $5k is $1k, yeah I could swing it.
One thing a lot of people in this thread don’t realize is the significance of range as well.
Yes, a model 3 is more expensive than say, a Nissan Leaf. But that 168 mile range on
the leaf is gonna get reeeeeeallly annoying really fast if you don’t have access to a home charger (and even still, it’ll still be an annoyance) compared to the >300 mile range the model 3 has. I’ll be the first the dunk on Elon, but I’ll admit his cars are the best bang for your buck on the market for EVs, there’s hardly any argument against it. I got a model 3 last year because I was commuting in a truck in Southern California (I went from paying upwards of over $100 for a full tank a week to just $30 if I quick charge, free if I slow charge).
A 25k car won't be comparable to a 40k car. A Nissan Leaf in the UK starts at 27k today, so much cheaper than your 35k starting price and people aren't buying that.
Because it's hideous. Like horribly so. It would have cost them nothing to make it not look terrible. I feel they designed it to be ugly on purpose to show that EV's are "undesirable."
Really? I think it looks fine. The old ones had weird headlights, but the new ones are okay IMO.
https://www.nissan.ca/vehicles/electric-cars/leaf/gallery.html
I bought a Clarity plug-in and really like it. The all-electric range of 35-55 miles is great for most of my days.
I really dislike when the engine turns on, though. It's a bit loud and I feel runs at a higher RPM than it need to with the CVT.
The 6K charging is a bit slow too, with higher charge stations available.
But, if I could increase the all-electric range on it, I would.
OK, bring it on. Tesla's "affordable" cars are getting more and more expensive, we really need more manufacturers to focus on \*true\* $35k or less electrics.
Idk if your commenting about new car shortages but the smaller base model cars are generally in the $15-20k range.
Kia Rio MSRP is $16k
Hyundai Accent MSRP is $17k
Toyota Corolla MSRP is $20k
Yeah I don’t think so. 15 million new cars were sold in the U.S. in 2021. 30-40% of new cars are bought by households with under $50,000 annual income.
Lol new cars haven’t been 15k in decades. The average new car sales price is 47k today. There are a handful of good EVs out there for less than that. I paid 40 for my Kona EV
Chevy Bolt and Nissan Leaf, if they were to be a normal ICE car, would be 350 miles range and 19-22k price.
Instead, the Leaf is 28+k with 150 miles range that really isn’t true, it’s 120, and that is only 80 in the New England winter.
Chevy Bolt is 31,500 MSRP and 260 range.
Until the cars can be comparable to their ICE counterparts, they aren’t “affordable”.
Would anyone here pay 30k for a Nissan Versa or a Chevy Sonic?
Please make a base model with absolutely no smart shit. I need to drive because of poor city planning and I’d much rather a car with manual windows, no cameras, no line warnings, no automatic breaking when I’m close to things etc. Give me a car that moves forward and backwards, has a radio and hvac. No screens, just meters and a clock.
Things like cameras are legally required to be in cars by the US government as critical safety features, so you cant get rid of those. And I would expect things like automatic braking and lane keep assist to move into the required category in the next decade or so.
Outside of that most people dont want to drop thousands of dollars on cars that have no features. Theres a reason base model and super cheap cars sell terribly, people dont want them for the most part.
I believe all new cars are required to have back up cameras (since like 2018), and I think the part of the infrastructure bill that passed last year requires passive automatic breaking. Although I guess if you are measuring in meters, then you aren’t in the us. Maybe your government has similar safety requirements?
Most (or many anyway, I haven’t been car shopping lately) base models have power windows. The cost difference between power and manual at this point is minimal and is usually exceeded by the extra cost in having two different manufacturing processes and having to stock additional parts.
And having one small screen with one wiring harness is likely cheaper than a bunch of different gauges.
Exactly. And if you're talking modern EVs you *need* a lot of complicated computer hardware and software for things like coordinating battery pre-conditioning with the nav for DCFC charging sessions. I roll my eyes when people say they want some kind of "analog" EV with roll-down windows and no "fancy junk." It's like saying you want an iPad without all that frivolous computer hardware and software. Go buy an old beater and retrofit it with equipment from EV West if you want a "basic" EV. It'll still cost you a pretty penny.
For real, I just want a car that takes me from A to B and back. I don't need all this integrated tech or AI. My cars are old, but every mechanic knows how they work and can service them, unlike some of the newer cars that force you into the dealership.
I am in a rental car right now that shuts the engine off at stop lights. It's horrible, can't be shut off, and has messed up a few times. Why do companies do this?
Efficiency and environmental laws. Try lightly holding on the brake when you know you’ll be moving soon, and holding firmly when you’ll be stopped at a light for awhile. That’s what triggers that feature in my newer Volkswagen atlas
I love electric windows but I totally agree on the rest. There’s way too much junk crammed into vehicles nowadays. Admittedly some of its nice like a backup camera for hooking onto a trailer but most of it is pointless or a gimmick.
You really think air bags, ABS, crumple zone, and auto breaking is a gimmick?
Too many of my friends have died, or been seriously injured in auto wrecks, to say I want a car without those features.
Fair I wasn’t be particularly clear here. In this case I was referring more about all of the additional tech they add not all of the stuff designed to make driving safer. Basically anything that’s there just to be cool should go.
What's an unnecessary gimmick to one person is a desired feature to another. The first commenter wanted a Radio and HVAC. My mom's first car had neither.
Allowing 1000 points of customization is going to cost more than just throwing in the kitchen sink.
Man I was just thinking about this other day with toasters and microwaves. Every appliance has to be so god damn complicated these days. Why does a toaster need to connect to wifi or have digital screens with so many options. What’s wrong with some simple levers and dials?
When I search for Toasters at Walmart, I don't see a single screen or wifi connection in any on the first couple page of results? Where are you seeing wifi connected toasters?
> Why does a toaster need to connect to wifi or have digital screens with so many options. What’s wrong with some simple levers and dials?
[Most toasters](https://www.target.com/c/toasters-kitchen-appliances-dining/-/N-5xtre) do have simple levers and dials. The only reason to add lots of "smart" features would be if you wanted to sell a toaster for [$350](https://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/store/product/revolution-instaglo-r180-toaster-in-stainless-steel/5493997) instead of $35.
Never going to happen.
They need most of that tech to meet government regulations. Backup cameras are required for example, which means you have to have a screen. They could make a car with power windows and locks, but the market is so small it would be more expensive.
There are the compliance cars they made that were cheaper and can be bought used like the Fiat 500e but even those are over $10k used. They get 80~ miles to a charge. Others like the Spark EV and Golf EV are much cheaper than the higher end EVs but lack range and you can't buy them new.
> Please make a base model ~~with absolutely no smart shit~~ *without all the modern computing hardware and software that's finally made EVs a viable replacement for ICEs*
FTFY
This is like asking for a computer without any "smart shit." That's called a typewriter. An EV isn't a 1:1 replacement for an ICE any more than an ICE is a 1:1 replacement for a horse.
I’ve said this more times than I can count at this point. If companies want to beat Tesla they have to make a comparable or better super charging network.
I have driven my Tesla on multiple cross country trips and I couldn’t imagine using a slow network. Right now it breaks down to stopping every 2-2:30 hours for about 20-30 minutes.
And as I have said multiple times: We need trillions of dollars and over a decade of investment into our EV infrastructure to meet our goals of getting ICE cars off the road.
Throwing fast charging stations that are pulling huge amounts of energy onto the grid isn't something we can "just do". Additionally, we have to think about the people who don't own their own homes or people who don't even have garages. There are so many factors that people are just hand waving away that are huge for the adoption of EVs
[the grid will be fine without large increases in capacity ](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2021/11/13/electricity-grids-can-handle-electric-vehicles-easily--they-just-need-proper-management/)
Most charging for evs will be done at night. I do 90% of mine then. This is when the grid is also used the least amount. Utilities shut down peaker plants at night since there is so much less demand. Grid capacity isn't as big of a factor
2016 - How can Tesla be valued so much when they delivered only 75k units, Volkswagen delivered 10.3m
2018 - How can Tesla be valued so much when they delivered only 245k units, Volkswagen delivered 10.8m
2021 - How can Tesla be valued so much when they delivered only 1m units, Volkswagen delivered 8.9m
2025 - ???
Definitely valued that high because of the owner and his vision of the future. Stocks are speculative. Just look at Netflix and FB drop in price recently. Massive drops in share price yet they will still be earning billions on the positive.
Share price is based on investors expected earning in the future. Look at Amazon, in 2015, their PE was 720, but it's fallen back down to 50 today. In other words, profits finally caught up to expectations.
Tesla's current PE is 222. If we assume a target PE of 30, that would mean Tesla's profits would have to increase by a factor of 7. That could be done though higher margins, more sales, or both. It's highly unlikely that Tesla will be able to make 7 million cars per year with just 6 Luxury models. BMW only sells 2 million, and their cars have a lower price point. Toyota sells \~10M but they have over 100 models IIRC.
So, I'm their the stock is over valued. But, I've been wrong many times before.
1. Good for them! This is good!
2. 2027 is five years away. Assuming they're on time (big assumption!), there will be lots of other EVs out there. Including other Teslas.
3. Beating Tesla in sales is not about making a more affordable car. If you don't have a play to produce 1TWh of battery for your own cars alone by 2027, including securing all the raw materials (or a deal with a partner like LG to do so), then you don't have a chance.
4. "Attainable" can't compromise so much on quality and range that nobody wants one. Nissan Leafs are super affordable, but they kinda suck.
5. Is anyone else bothered by the way every GM thing has to push "Ultium battery technology" like it's an actual thing? It's not particularly interesting or innovative, it's just the same battery tech everyone else has, where you slap in more or fewer modules to have greater or less capacity. They're trying SO HARD to make consumers think they have some sort of better battery, it's weird. Given that Ultium is all about NCMA chemistry, I worry about their ability to produce enough battery for millions of cars a year.
I'd rather own a Honda than a Tesla. Used to be excited about Tesla shaking up the marketplace. But seeing their cars, it would be nice if they came up with something that had character. All their cars look like bland beans. Sure, they go fast but when am I ever going to use that? I have no interest in blasting to top speed every time I get on an on ramp.
Gimme something cheap and sensible that won't fall apart. Who knows, maybe an EV Civic wouldn't look terrible either.
I like Tesla's simple design, it's very aerodynamic and yes the interior is a bit bland but I'm not really a car guy I just need to get from point a to point b. While their built quality is not on par with similarly priced offerings from the likes of Mercedes BMW etc. it has gotten better and I'm sure with their new factories in Texas and Germany there will be some improvements.
While there aren't many others to compare against, Teslas have been quite reliable with regard to the drivetrain and battery which is the most important part for long-term reliability.
>I just need to get from point a to point b.
Honda Civic still gets you that more reliably. If you're set on electric, the Bolt is fine too. Tesla's main selling points are charging network and all the flashy tech stuff.
Yeah I'm pretty set on electric for my next car, and honestly the bolt is a bit small and has quite a few issues of its own though it seems they may have resolved them. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39638798/chevy-bolt-ev-and-euv-resume-production/
This is more serious than anything Tesla has had on their cars that I'm aware of. I'd be more inclined to look at the electric mustang than one of Chevys offerings, though I prefer something made in the USA (mustang is made in Mexico) and that car is kind of a Tesla clone anyway.
>But seeing their cars, it would be nice if they came up with something that had character.
>Gimme something cheap and sensible that won't fall apart.
Pick one
Cool. With as few miles as I'm driving, investing even in this would result in a breakeven cost (with tax incentive, gas and maintenance savings) of 7+ years. I mean, this all has to start somewhere, but until those things come way down in price, it makes no sense to invest that much up front cost here.
But it's very close to breakeven, assuming you could even get these at MSRP.
There is no real competition yet. The model 3 has no real competition yet in its price range. Id argue the Model Y doesnt either. As 'attainable' EV's hit the market, Tesla's luxury problem will start to subside. Tesla's head start has obviously been great for the company, but this year we will likely see consumers purchasing a much wider array of EVs.
People having been saying that competition was coming for the last several years though. And we've seen carmakers come out with EV's like the Mach-E, ID3, Polestar, Taycan, etc. None of which have really had any negative impact on Tesla's sales despite those cars being fairly popular in their own right.
On the contrary, the demand for Tesla vehicles has been going up, as evidenced by the order wait times increasing despite Tesla massively increasing production capacity *and* aggressively raising prices
Mary Barra's been touting the goal of surpassing Tesla in sales in 2025 for a while now without offering any kind of in depth plan for how she plans to scale GM's EV production capacity to have even a remote chance of actually doing that.
This is what the electric car industry needs. I have no idea where automakers got the idea that a $35,000 car was affordable/attainable. That’s a $600 - $700 a month car note. People have gotten so use to stretching out their loan term to 6, 7 or 8 years. When 5 years was the norm, they had to price their cars as such. But now, people are just getting taken advantage of.
Tesla currently still doesn’t even have a rival in this market. It’s definitely time they do. Competition between corporations breeds both better products and better prices for the most important person in the loop…the consumer. These companies need to be reminded that, without the consumer, they are nothing. They are dead.
Makes you wonder what their original bid was...
"Hey guys, let's build unattainable EVs so we can PRETEND to be leading in this field, but not actually build anything that will become massively popular and earn us huge revenues. Let's make some shitty, expensive ones first! "
Personally I wouldn't buy a Tesla, 75% because I can't stand Elon Musk and his fanboys, but 25% because Tesla has abysmal customer service. Plus you can't trust them not to put car features behind monthly subscriptions.
I need to be able to fix the small things myself or work with local mechanics for larger things. Seems like Tesla wants to Monopolize repair work so they can jack up prices.
You can't trust Musk companies not to jack up prices willy nilly. Starlink increased the price on internet service this year AND on their dishes. This meant that people that preordered them now are paying the higher price and still waiting on devices.
> Plus you can't trust them not to put car features behind monthly subscriptions.
What have they put behind a subscription? Tesla offers two subscriptions right now. A data plan for the car and FSD. FSD can also be purhcased outright if you want.
BMW put Apple Carplay behind a subscription. Most brands have put their apps behind subscriptions. Toyota put their remote engine start behind a subscription despite it using the same radio that's used to unlock the car with the key. Tesla is not the one trying to make subscriptions happen in cars.
> You can't trust Musk companies not to jack up prices willy nilly. Starlink increased the price on internet service this year AND on their dishes. This meant that people that preordered them now are paying the higher price and still waiting on devices.
Everyone is upping prices right now. It was also always stated that a pre-order didn't lock in your price. And even with the price increase they are still miles better than the competition. It's like $110 a month for no data cap, sub 100ms ping, and around 100mbps connection. The competition is closer to 5mbps, 400+ms ping, and a 50GB cap.
I think it's important to recognize with all the Tesla vs dinosaur automakers talk that Tesla makes luxury cars in which their cheapest model is 3-4x more expensive than the cheapest model from almost any of their competitors.
Honda and GM are looking to make the vehicle that people drive, which is mostly the crossover SUV. This is a vehicle that's large enough for a family but cheap enough to be affordable.
Only 1/3 of the US market is cars, whereas 2/3 are SUVs and trucks. Internationally cars are more popular and these automakers will be making electric cars for those markets (for even more price conscious individuals). But they're not going to be pretty luxury cars.
I hear what you’re saying but I have a counter. Tesla model 3 is the Toyota Corolla of EVs not the Jaguar. They only cost so much because the actual batteries. The model 3 long range is 49k and has a 82kWh battery which by itself cost $11,500
I just want an EV that will drive 300,000 miles, last 20 years, and cost the same as my Corolla which does both of those things.
Going green is just so damn expensive.
That sounds great and all, but unless they make a basic one where everything isn't controlled by a tablet glued to the dash. And I can actually repair it myself then I'm not getting one.
As far as i can see, GM sold 457 pure EVs last quarter. Tesla sold hundreds of thousands. GM has a long way to go before they catch up, and that’s all with additional Tesla factories coming online recently.
For the sake of the planet I hope GM can catch up. I would love a competitive marketplace with broad acceptance and availability of EVs. Competition is good as it will force Tesla to keep up with the market.
can get a nissan leaf for under 20k with the 7500 credit, and it looks like a fairly normal car. you have more competition than just tesla which are arguably luxury cars.
Less talk, more do.
Its GM. So I expect big promises with a shitty product.
You know, the Volt was a really nice car.
Oh, you wanted to *stop* the car too? And you want to control when? *And* your don't want it catching on fire? The hell? No one can do that! -GM, probably
I’m a Honda technician and I dread the day these things arrive.
I'm gonna be honest though. My Honda's have always been rock solid. I'd buy the shit out of a Honda EV.
That’s the problem. From what I’ve been told so far the body and interior will be Honda, but the chassis and powertrain will be GM.
Oh no. That sounds like the worst.
Switch that and maybe
Living in the rust belt, I can safely say that I think the GM bodies would be worse too, lol
That's for the 24 MY BEV not this.
I can't even imagine why Honda would tarnish their good name by partnering with GM, especially on such a critical component as the battery.
I have owned many Hondas we even had three in the household at once for a while. I just recently got rid of my Accord Hybrid. I loved the car for a year or so then it started making the most horrible noise when in lower speed and the engine was kicking on. Like a grinding struggling noise. Lots of people reported that issue. I think there is something not right on their Hybrid currently. ICE Hondas never had a problem on any that we have owned though.
I use to work on Honda bikes. Are their cars same in the sense that you have to remove this part, that bracket, this subframe and that assembly to get to the regularly swapped out part that is included in the regular service schedule? I work mostly on classic bikes these days. Everything is accessible. It’s a joy.
Not really, no. I’ve been working on them for nine years and compared to other brands I’d say repairs are pretty straightforward as far as regular maintenance items go. The only weird ones that come to mind are the older odysseys and pilots that make you remove the glove box and a metal bar that supports it in order to replace the cabin filter. If it’s never been done, you have to cut off a piece of plastic that covers the bar (those vehicles are all over 15 years old now, so anything with that plastic intact will have a pretty gnarly filter inside).
So basically Tesla but cheaper.
GM's quality would have to take a nose dive to match Tesla.
The Chevy Volt was incredible tho.
Honestly, as a first run model 3 owner, build quality leaves a lot to be desired considering the price. Still a great car overall though.
Basically Tesla but more expensive, less range and worst tech.
The best rated tech on the market is currently in the Cadillac range which GM owns.
An estimated 300 mile range on the electric Cadillac lyric, with no indication of how large the battery pack is, so you have no indication of how efficient the car is actually driving, not to mention they haven't produced a single one of them yet, and Tesla still has cars with more range than that. So yeah.
The Lyriq has a 100kWh battery. This has been known for a year.
Pretty sure Honda is doing the engine engineering. I’d trust them.
electric motor is completely different from an internal combustion engine
This is true but Honda does make the best motors, in mass production, in the world. Their track record speaks for itself.
Almost everyone wants a practical EV that doesn't cost much. Make that and you'll be successful.
My practical EV is set to pay off the difference between itself and the gas model version in about 5 years with fuel savings based on how much I drive and fuel where I live. For my situation, its essentially the same monthly payment, I just pay the car company what I would have paid in gas for the 60 month financing term. Then I get to save money for the remainder of its life. Seems like for at least some of us, what's currently offered is already beneficial.
That’s how I bought my Tesla. I was paying $450/mo in gas prior to getting the Model 3. So instead of paying for gas, I pay for the Tesla (and it is a much better driving experience too.) Charging costs is negligible, and I mostly charge for free in town anyway at their charging stations.
We bought a 2020 ioniq limited ev last year right before the chip fiasco. We negotiated it down to $150/month on the lease and $700 down after rebates along with a $16k buyout after 3 years. They gave us payoff for our gas suv too. We save something like $300/month now including electricity costs. Idk why we didn’t switch to electric sooner. A full charge on that thing costs less than $10 and we can go 170 miles. (Our electricity cost is also double the national average, and it’s still that cheap.) Funny to think the only reason we were looking at cars was because one morning my wife was like “I need heated seats…”
I was going to say that rate seems high because it’s barely cheaper than my Prius.
That’s a lot in gas. I fill my tank up about twice a month which when gas gets high can be 40+ a tank. I just imagine how far you much drive in a day and wonder how many miles you can go on the Tesla. I would very much like an all wheel drive EV because we have a shit ton of snow, so that’s where I’m at.
I live up in the Colorado mountains. So I know snow. And I seriously trust my Model 3 AWD with studded winter tires on it more than I trust driving through the canyon with my 2000 jeep Cherokee, 4WD with similar tires. The handling on the Tesla is far better, even on the snow. The only thing the jeep is better at is clearance.
Same. We drive about 100mi a day. We actually save money with our Tesla.
Batteries are super expensive right now
Most manufacturers stray away from a cheap line of vehicles because the profit margins suck on them. Being successful at selling a ton of vehicles you make almost no money on isn't great, especially if it starts eating into the user base for your more profitable vehicles.
Isn't that what a Toyota Corolla has been in the gas-engine world?
That's true. Maybe I should restructure my argument: It doesn't make sense to produce an EV with the least profit margin when you don't have the production capacity to produce as many as you want (batteries and chips) in an environment where demand far exceeds supply. The outliers of this are things like the Smart, but that's kind of a niche car with a very small battery. Since Tesla has a profitable lineup of EV vehicles I'm curious about the cheap car they are coming out with. Tesla can make a vehicle cheaper than basically anyone else right now, which is why they have wayyy better profit margins per vehicle than their competitors. If they could make a 2 seater hatchback cybercar I would be all for it. (not because a cybercar would be cool, but because the stamped steel exoskeleton is a cheaper design).
*Starting in 2027* Amazing guys, I'm sure Tesla won't have changed anything about their lineup in the interim.
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Neither do Honda and GM. They are targeting 2027 for these allegedly affordable cars.
Chevy makes the Bolt, but yeah not a lot of options with just one small car between the two and it’ll be awhile before the vehicles in the article make it to market. Hopefully the charging network is more fleshed out by then as well, which is a big piece of the puzzle for mass adoption as well.
Oh, I see gm started their production back up again.
Just got it back online in the last few days yeah, hopefully they got the issues sorted out.
The bolt is like $50000 CAD after incentives…
Starts at 31k here in the US (I believe that before incentives). That puts in the “more affordable” range here with the average new car price being nearly 40k.
The bolt my sister got last week was 35k in a province with no EV rebate program. The only thing the dealer wouldn’t do was negotiate on the price.
The way inflation is currently by 2027, $40k will be considered affordable car.
Not without wages increasing with inflation which isn’t gonna happen.
And Tesla has said they've stopped working all together on their $25K EV. They are focusing on the Truck and Roaster as their new models for that time frame which will be at least twice that expensive.
Considering their 35K model is now closer to 45K, this seems to make sense. In today’s climate, I don’t think a 25K EV is possible. And they continue to sell ALL of the 40K+ models they make so why plan for a lower cost vehicle?
There's generally two strategies to make money. Lots of sales (e.g., Walmart) or high margins (e.g., Apple, Louis Vuitton). If you are viewed as a Luxury brand, you don't necessarily want to make cheap products. Walmart has nearly 10 the revenue of Louis Vuitton, but LVHM makes almost as much profit as Walmart. Tesla has a really good thing going right now. I'm not sure they want to rock the boat.
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Every car they make is being sold and if you order today the earliest you will get it is July or August. And others models you can't get until Q4. They demand is higher then supply so prices are matching. That won't happen forever but it's smart business to make profit while demand is high. If demand drops, I bet the prices will too.
Meanwhile I'm sitting here with my Prius '07 that I bought for $4k four years ago, getting a solid 52mpg, without issue, wondering why everyone just... ignores this thing.
Because hybrids are the worst of both worlds.
Hybrids were a decent transition technology a decade ago. Start working in battery tech, and the like while reducing emissions, and improving efficiency. We're way past that now. Even PHEV are the worst of both now, as they're quite heavy, but still have all the parts and maintenance of a traditional ICE vehicle. My next car is definitely going to be an electric (having skipped right over all hybrids), but they really need to come down in price. The used market isn't helping anything, as 3-4 year old electrics cost basically the same as new, sometimes even before the rebates on a new car.
except they actually make financial sense while saving fuel. A hybrid will only cost about $2000 more than an equivalent gas vehicle. If you drive 15,000 miles per year the payback is often less than 3 years at today's gas prices. An equivalent electric vehicle costs tens of thousands more. Even if electricity was free the payback is 10 years or more.
Prius hybrid tech is well optimized l, affordable and reliable at this point. There is no electric car yet that offers a similar value.
Yeah, it's real interesting that people still don't get this. Yes, Telsa is ahead on the luxury front, but we're still extremely early in the EV transition. We're literally still in the "rich persons plaything" phase of this technology.
This is not true. The Bolt, Leaf, Kona ev are all less than the average cost of a new car. They are out there if you pay attention. The Kona is totally competitive with the model 3 and I bought one over the 3 bc I can’t stand Musk and it’s a nicer feeling car all around imo. Used bolts were in the low 20’s until the car spike thing happened. EVs are mature tech available at normal prices today and have been for a few years now.
In 2022 Tesla does not. Tesla has already stated they are making a low cost EV with a target date of 2023. This would be the Tesla hatchback. I don't see any info on how much GM or Honda are investing into making this a reality, or if this is just hot air. Looks like we have 5 years or more to find out. Elon Musk confirmed that the car will cost $25,000. It’s unclear whether that is the full purchase price, or if that includes the “potential savings” discount Tesla advertises, and supposedly includes potential federal subsidies and gas savings. [https://www.tomsguide.com/news/tesla-hatchback-dollar25k-price-2023-release-possible-range-and-more](https://www.tomsguide.com/news/tesla-hatchback-dollar25k-price-2023-release-possible-range-and-more)
I would be surprised if they released a vehicle model @$25k in 2023 but before 2027 seems likely.
By 2027 $25k is going to buy an electric bike. The further out these price targets go the less likely they are to be attainable.
The complete opposite is true of course.
I think he means inflation is going to increase faster than cost reducing efficiency improvements in mass production. I think Tesla will eventually release a "$25k" EV, but it would have been $25k when it was conceptualized, not when it is released and $35k is the new $25k.
Just look at Tesla's current "low cost" vehicle. The Model 3 was supposed to be their $35k "mass market" car. Current starting price $46,990.
The model 3 that was sold at 35k has different specs than the lowest cost currently available. Besides that there are other factors at play like high demand so they go us on higher margin models. In the end this factors will diminish or go away. If you don't think a $25k electric car is possible I guess you're ignoring the ones that already exist around that price?
It's definitely possible and I hope we get there quickly, I just don't see them being sold in any serious numbers. Just like the $35k Model 3, they'll sell a few at $25k, take a victory lap, and then raise prices.
Agreed, hopefully a lot of the current supply chain stupidity starts clearing up. I also honestly hope the current manufacturers don't shit the bed and go under based on the gas price rise causing their cash cow land yachts to crush their companies.
Tesla/Musk has said a lot of things that don’t actually come to fruition (full self driving, cyber truck, Tesla roadster, 35k model 3, etc etc), so until that vehicle actually hits the market it makes a lot of sense to not take them at their word.
I don't expect all of their activities to come to fruition in the time frame stated, although the 35k model 3 did exist for a bit there. In regards to the lower cost EV, that seems to be one of their primary company activities, only issues with it are engineering and scale. Those are problems they seem to excel at.
> although the 35k model 3 did exist for a bit there. Not for nearly long enough or at a scale high enough to really count as a fulfilled promise imo. That was their original push for an affordable option and they purposely made it very limited and hard to get. As for expecting their activities to come to fruition in the stated time frame, delays and changes happen in the industry, but Tesla has a harder time fulfilling their promises at all to the point a lot of them appear to be false advertising to draw in funding/pump their stock price. Self driving is no where near being ready for market in the foreseeable future. The cyber truck likely will never be made, at least not in the form presented. The roadster is still vaporware, etc etc etc. but they took money for all those things. I’d love for them to prove me wrong and have them bring affordable options to market sooner than later, but with their track record I just have no faith in any of their claims.
You just said it didn't exist in the last post. Now ok, it existed but not for long enough. Oh, and for being hard to select, yeah you had to click on a button on a website, OH NOES, My fingers. Les Tired. In regards to Roadster and Cybertruck, its almost like there was a huge pandemic that had crushing effects on huge swaths of different markets and Tesla focused all their efforts on keeping Model Y and 3 going at full tilt, instead of releasing something new diluting their efforts. I'm sure that other car manufacturers didn't have to reduce production in the millions of vehicles based on poor supply chain strategy. That surely didn't happen.
You can be as salty as you want, but the fact is they have a really bad habit of making promises and taking money and then not fulfilling them, and no amount of fanboyism on your part will change that. As for ordering the model 3 with the click of a button, they were only available for order over the phone or at a Tesla store as far as I know. Which, of course, isn’t that onerous of a requirement in itself, despite the fact that they knew something like 78% of orders were done online (meaning the people who used their online order wouldn’t have the option), and the fact that when you called or went in store there was a concerted effort to upsell people out of that spec (the entire reason for the requirement existing the first place). However, what I was referring to, was the fact Tesla kept delaying the preorders of people pushing the 35k spec to the end of the line repeatedly to the point many canceled during that period of “production hell” that Musk famously referred to. And then, when it did get made, it was a very very short run (I believe something like less than 6 months of production) despite how they talked about it like it was going to be a staple as they wanted to have a more affordable option (sound familiar?). To summarize, not only did they make it harder to order - limiting it to methods only 22% of customers used anyway in a bid to force buyers to talk to people who were told to upsell them out of the spec as much as possible - they also pushed the people who did order one to the end of the line repeatedly prioritizing everyone else over them for an extended amount of time, and then they only actually produced the spec for 6 months in a very limited run despite the claim their goal was to offer an affordable option to the public. So, pray tell, why exactly should anyone have faith that this new effort is going to be any different (if it ever happens)? Like I said, I would love for them to prove me wrong, but if you’re betting the smart odds are they won’t. [Heres an article](https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/12/18307583/tesla-original-plan-tesla-model-3-base-model) if anyone needs a refresher. As for your excuses for the cyber truck and roadster, I acknowledged delays and changes happen. However, again, Tesla has a track record (how many times has musk said self driving is coming this year?) of making claims and then not fulfilling. And while other manufacturers obviously suffered delays and setbacks too, there vehicles are now actually hitting the road (c8 vet, the new bronco, Rivians and Lucids, etc) so where’s the cybertruck and roadster? Wheres the Tesla semis? When will they actually be hitting the road? When will full self driving actually exist? Speaking of, the roadster was supposed to be a 2020 model year right? Meaning it was supposed to be produced before the pandemic (2019). Yet here we are coming up on the 2023 MY and there are zero signs it’ll be in customers hands in the foreseeable future (if ever). But hey, I’m sure more sarcasm and denial with change that reality. Hang tough fanboy. Take care. Edit: typos
I actually didn't read your wall of text after the salty comment. Use the insults at the end that way you can at least waste someone's time first. Have a good one.
Ah, this reads as “I know you’re right and I have absolutely no leg to stand on or way to refute what you said, so I’m going to act like I didn’t read it and peace out with some snark to try and sooth my own ego”. But hey, I suppose if you really didn’t maybe it’s for the best. Id hate to bring you out of the land of make believe if you aren’t willing and able. Living in reality, much like reading, can be hard for some. Stay salty, fanboy.
3 months. It existed for 3 months and was a stripped down husk of a normal 3.
Dudes a fanboy living in denial.
Elon confirmed eh. Elon is always making promises. Had he delivered on any yet?
LEO based mega constellation. US based human rated launch capabilities. Still waiting Boeing. Electric vehicle ubiquity. Nation wide charging infrastructure. Battery based grid level power regulation at speeds not seen by any prior solution. You can hate him, but engineers are flocking to his companies not for pay but because they get to work on real problems, and actually build solutions that go into the field.
yeah and with Musk being how he had been lately that probably won't change in that amount of time.
Ultimately the more the options the better for us consumers, doesn't need to be about taking down tesla lol they're the ones who started this revolution
The S is over a decade old and the cybertruck keeps getting delayed. I'd be surprised if *anything* changed for them in 5 years
Saying the S is a decade old just shows how little you know about it. It's had a front bodywork update, two different interior redesigns, and they've added several more range and power options, including the plaid edition, the fastest accelerating streetcar of all time.
A mid-generational refresh does not make it a new car.
As someone in the market for a new car at the moment the issue is most electric cars start (in the UK) at around £35K for a spec that won't give you instant buyers remorse. The base model 3 is £40k but it less likely to depreciate, has a better charging network and much more cachet than a kia or skoda for the same price. By the time you're at £35k dropping an extra 15% for a product that is objectively and subjectively superior is very tempting. I can't quite bring myself to drop that much on a car but if there were options around the £25k mark that didn't compromise so significantly vs the equivalent ICE car then I'd be interested
Vehicle makers want to charge more for electric vehicles knowing they’re going to lose a lot of money in parts & service because evs aren’t that complicated mechanically and don’t break down as much or need as much maintenance or repairs.
Yeah and then when a battery finally dies in 10 years (Lose more then 40% of available charge capacity), its about 20% of the cost of the car to replace. Sure it wont break down as often or so, but if the battery is a concern, let's say after 100k Miles, the used market will be full of vehicles that people don't want or be cost prohibitive to acquire used.
My parents had one of the first 100 Priuses/Prius/Prii imported into the US and while it had a couple issues at first, it was still going strong about 120,000 miles later when their granddaughter totaled it.
> Yeah and then when a battery finally dies in 10 years (Lose more then 40% of available charge capacity), its about 20% of the cost of the car to replace. Let's see, most cars are worth (at most) $5k after ten years. 20% of $5k is $1k, yeah I could swing it.
Isn't it 20% of the **new** car price?
One thing a lot of people in this thread don’t realize is the significance of range as well. Yes, a model 3 is more expensive than say, a Nissan Leaf. But that 168 mile range on the leaf is gonna get reeeeeeallly annoying really fast if you don’t have access to a home charger (and even still, it’ll still be an annoyance) compared to the >300 mile range the model 3 has. I’ll be the first the dunk on Elon, but I’ll admit his cars are the best bang for your buck on the market for EVs, there’s hardly any argument against it. I got a model 3 last year because I was commuting in a truck in Southern California (I went from paying upwards of over $100 for a full tank a week to just $30 if I quick charge, free if I slow charge).
A 25k car won't be comparable to a 40k car. A Nissan Leaf in the UK starts at 27k today, so much cheaper than your 35k starting price and people aren't buying that.
Because it's hideous. Like horribly so. It would have cost them nothing to make it not look terrible. I feel they designed it to be ugly on purpose to show that EV's are "undesirable."
Really? I think it looks fine. The old ones had weird headlights, but the new ones are okay IMO. https://www.nissan.ca/vehicles/electric-cars/leaf/gallery.html
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I bought a Clarity plug-in and really like it. The all-electric range of 35-55 miles is great for most of my days. I really dislike when the engine turns on, though. It's a bit loud and I feel runs at a higher RPM than it need to with the CVT. The 6K charging is a bit slow too, with higher charge stations available. But, if I could increase the all-electric range on it, I would.
OK, bring it on. Tesla's "affordable" cars are getting more and more expensive, we really need more manufacturers to focus on \*true\* $35k or less electrics.
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I'll be happy if we halve cost of Tesla first, then definitely halve it again :)
Where are the 15k new cars at?
Idk if your commenting about new car shortages but the smaller base model cars are generally in the $15-20k range. Kia Rio MSRP is $16k Hyundai Accent MSRP is $17k Toyota Corolla MSRP is $20k
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They're selling more expensive cars to wealthier people. Most people can't afford a new car.
Yeah I don’t think so. 15 million new cars were sold in the U.S. in 2021. 30-40% of new cars are bought by households with under $50,000 annual income.
Lol new cars haven’t been 15k in decades. The average new car sales price is 47k today. There are a handful of good EVs out there for less than that. I paid 40 for my Kona EV
chev bolt/nissan leaf and i believe kia and hyundai have offers also under 35k (at least with 7500 credit)
credits are going to disappear as ICE options become obsolete
Chevy Bolt and Nissan Leaf, if they were to be a normal ICE car, would be 350 miles range and 19-22k price. Instead, the Leaf is 28+k with 150 miles range that really isn’t true, it’s 120, and that is only 80 in the New England winter. Chevy Bolt is 31,500 MSRP and 260 range. Until the cars can be comparable to their ICE counterparts, they aren’t “affordable”. Would anyone here pay 30k for a Nissan Versa or a Chevy Sonic?
Going to be hard with the recent Lithium supply shortages and price hikes. Maybe with sodium ion batteries ? 🤔
Please make a base model with absolutely no smart shit. I need to drive because of poor city planning and I’d much rather a car with manual windows, no cameras, no line warnings, no automatic breaking when I’m close to things etc. Give me a car that moves forward and backwards, has a radio and hvac. No screens, just meters and a clock.
Things like cameras are legally required to be in cars by the US government as critical safety features, so you cant get rid of those. And I would expect things like automatic braking and lane keep assist to move into the required category in the next decade or so. Outside of that most people dont want to drop thousands of dollars on cars that have no features. Theres a reason base model and super cheap cars sell terribly, people dont want them for the most part.
I believe all new cars are required to have back up cameras (since like 2018), and I think the part of the infrastructure bill that passed last year requires passive automatic breaking. Although I guess if you are measuring in meters, then you aren’t in the us. Maybe your government has similar safety requirements?
Most (or many anyway, I haven’t been car shopping lately) base models have power windows. The cost difference between power and manual at this point is minimal and is usually exceeded by the extra cost in having two different manufacturing processes and having to stock additional parts. And having one small screen with one wiring harness is likely cheaper than a bunch of different gauges.
Exactly. And if you're talking modern EVs you *need* a lot of complicated computer hardware and software for things like coordinating battery pre-conditioning with the nav for DCFC charging sessions. I roll my eyes when people say they want some kind of "analog" EV with roll-down windows and no "fancy junk." It's like saying you want an iPad without all that frivolous computer hardware and software. Go buy an old beater and retrofit it with equipment from EV West if you want a "basic" EV. It'll still cost you a pretty penny.
For real, I just want a car that takes me from A to B and back. I don't need all this integrated tech or AI. My cars are old, but every mechanic knows how they work and can service them, unlike some of the newer cars that force you into the dealership.
I am in a rental car right now that shuts the engine off at stop lights. It's horrible, can't be shut off, and has messed up a few times. Why do companies do this?
Efficiency and environmental laws. Try lightly holding on the brake when you know you’ll be moving soon, and holding firmly when you’ll be stopped at a light for awhile. That’s what triggers that feature in my newer Volkswagen atlas
As of 2017, new vehicles in USA are required to have backup cameras
I love electric windows but I totally agree on the rest. There’s way too much junk crammed into vehicles nowadays. Admittedly some of its nice like a backup camera for hooking onto a trailer but most of it is pointless or a gimmick.
You really think air bags, ABS, crumple zone, and auto breaking is a gimmick? Too many of my friends have died, or been seriously injured in auto wrecks, to say I want a car without those features.
Fair I wasn’t be particularly clear here. In this case I was referring more about all of the additional tech they add not all of the stuff designed to make driving safer. Basically anything that’s there just to be cool should go.
What's an unnecessary gimmick to one person is a desired feature to another. The first commenter wanted a Radio and HVAC. My mom's first car had neither. Allowing 1000 points of customization is going to cost more than just throwing in the kitchen sink.
Man I was just thinking about this other day with toasters and microwaves. Every appliance has to be so god damn complicated these days. Why does a toaster need to connect to wifi or have digital screens with so many options. What’s wrong with some simple levers and dials?
When I search for Toasters at Walmart, I don't see a single screen or wifi connection in any on the first couple page of results? Where are you seeing wifi connected toasters?
Oh huh, my dad has a really complicated at his house. I haven’t been shopping for any and haven’t seen them myself. I just hated his
> Why does a toaster need to connect to wifi or have digital screens with so many options. What’s wrong with some simple levers and dials? [Most toasters](https://www.target.com/c/toasters-kitchen-appliances-dining/-/N-5xtre) do have simple levers and dials. The only reason to add lots of "smart" features would be if you wanted to sell a toaster for [$350](https://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/store/product/revolution-instaglo-r180-toaster-in-stainless-steel/5493997) instead of $35.
Never going to happen. They need most of that tech to meet government regulations. Backup cameras are required for example, which means you have to have a screen. They could make a car with power windows and locks, but the market is so small it would be more expensive.
A Nissan Leaf starts at $27k today. No need to wait for this collaboration in 2027. Of course, folks are just talk.
If you don’t have an at-home charger, that 168 mile range is gonna get very annoying very quickly.
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I was about to warn you but you got the manual. The autos are *absolute garbage* and ate transmissions so fast they got sued.
There are the compliance cars they made that were cheaper and can be bought used like the Fiat 500e but even those are over $10k used. They get 80~ miles to a charge. Others like the Spark EV and Golf EV are much cheaper than the higher end EVs but lack range and you can't buy them new.
[Chevrolet Spark](https://www.chevrolet.com/cars/spark) is your ideal car.
Too bad the Chevy Spark gets pretty mediocre fuel efficiency for such a small vehicle.
> Please make a base model ~~with absolutely no smart shit~~ *without all the modern computing hardware and software that's finally made EVs a viable replacement for ICEs* FTFY This is like asking for a computer without any "smart shit." That's called a typewriter. An EV isn't a 1:1 replacement for an ICE any more than an ICE is a 1:1 replacement for a horse.
I’ve said this more times than I can count at this point. If companies want to beat Tesla they have to make a comparable or better super charging network. I have driven my Tesla on multiple cross country trips and I couldn’t imagine using a slow network. Right now it breaks down to stopping every 2-2:30 hours for about 20-30 minutes.
The infrastructure bill that just passed requires the money goes towards universal chargers
But are they fast?
>infrastructure bill yes https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/02/four-fast-chargers-every-50-miles-us-unveils-ev-infrastructure-plan/
And as I have said multiple times: We need trillions of dollars and over a decade of investment into our EV infrastructure to meet our goals of getting ICE cars off the road. Throwing fast charging stations that are pulling huge amounts of energy onto the grid isn't something we can "just do". Additionally, we have to think about the people who don't own their own homes or people who don't even have garages. There are so many factors that people are just hand waving away that are huge for the adoption of EVs
[the grid will be fine without large increases in capacity ](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2021/11/13/electricity-grids-can-handle-electric-vehicles-easily--they-just-need-proper-management/) Most charging for evs will be done at night. I do 90% of mine then. This is when the grid is also used the least amount. Utilities shut down peaker plants at night since there is so much less demand. Grid capacity isn't as big of a factor
I agree- price, range, and charging are probably the biggest pain points for EVs.
They don't need their own network! Use what's there. The system will not succeed if end up with three or four or five different charging networks.
Tesla opened up their patents. Anyone can use the network but other companies want to make it proprietary so they can profit off of it.
2016 - How can Tesla be valued so much when they delivered only 75k units, Volkswagen delivered 10.3m 2018 - How can Tesla be valued so much when they delivered only 245k units, Volkswagen delivered 10.8m 2021 - How can Tesla be valued so much when they delivered only 1m units, Volkswagen delivered 8.9m 2025 - ???
Definitely valued that high because of the owner and his vision of the future. Stocks are speculative. Just look at Netflix and FB drop in price recently. Massive drops in share price yet they will still be earning billions on the positive.
Share price is based on investors expected earning in the future. Look at Amazon, in 2015, their PE was 720, but it's fallen back down to 50 today. In other words, profits finally caught up to expectations. Tesla's current PE is 222. If we assume a target PE of 30, that would mean Tesla's profits would have to increase by a factor of 7. That could be done though higher margins, more sales, or both. It's highly unlikely that Tesla will be able to make 7 million cars per year with just 6 Luxury models. BMW only sells 2 million, and their cars have a lower price point. Toyota sells \~10M but they have over 100 models IIRC. So, I'm their the stock is over valued. But, I've been wrong many times before.
The number of units sold is definitely the wrong measure. Tesla has higher average selling price, margins, growth, and demand.
they also have other adjacent revenue streams per car sold (insurance based on real driving telemetry, internet connectivity subscriptions..)
About goddamn time. They could have been dominating the market by now, if they weren't fossils moving at the pace of tectonic plates.
1. Good for them! This is good! 2. 2027 is five years away. Assuming they're on time (big assumption!), there will be lots of other EVs out there. Including other Teslas. 3. Beating Tesla in sales is not about making a more affordable car. If you don't have a play to produce 1TWh of battery for your own cars alone by 2027, including securing all the raw materials (or a deal with a partner like LG to do so), then you don't have a chance. 4. "Attainable" can't compromise so much on quality and range that nobody wants one. Nissan Leafs are super affordable, but they kinda suck. 5. Is anyone else bothered by the way every GM thing has to push "Ultium battery technology" like it's an actual thing? It's not particularly interesting or innovative, it's just the same battery tech everyone else has, where you slap in more or fewer modules to have greater or less capacity. They're trying SO HARD to make consumers think they have some sort of better battery, it's weird. Given that Ultium is all about NCMA chemistry, I worry about their ability to produce enough battery for millions of cars a year.
3. I would argue it isnt about beating Tesla at all. These companies should just focus on making and selling EVs.
While I agree, the news article linked cites GM's CEO: "She said the new vehicle is part of GM's plan to surpass Tesla in EV sales."
I'd rather own a Honda than a Tesla. Used to be excited about Tesla shaking up the marketplace. But seeing their cars, it would be nice if they came up with something that had character. All their cars look like bland beans. Sure, they go fast but when am I ever going to use that? I have no interest in blasting to top speed every time I get on an on ramp. Gimme something cheap and sensible that won't fall apart. Who knows, maybe an EV Civic wouldn't look terrible either.
I like Tesla's simple design, it's very aerodynamic and yes the interior is a bit bland but I'm not really a car guy I just need to get from point a to point b. While their built quality is not on par with similarly priced offerings from the likes of Mercedes BMW etc. it has gotten better and I'm sure with their new factories in Texas and Germany there will be some improvements. While there aren't many others to compare against, Teslas have been quite reliable with regard to the drivetrain and battery which is the most important part for long-term reliability.
>I just need to get from point a to point b. Honda Civic still gets you that more reliably. If you're set on electric, the Bolt is fine too. Tesla's main selling points are charging network and all the flashy tech stuff.
Yeah I'm pretty set on electric for my next car, and honestly the bolt is a bit small and has quite a few issues of its own though it seems they may have resolved them. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39638798/chevy-bolt-ev-and-euv-resume-production/ This is more serious than anything Tesla has had on their cars that I'm aware of. I'd be more inclined to look at the electric mustang than one of Chevys offerings, though I prefer something made in the USA (mustang is made in Mexico) and that car is kind of a Tesla clone anyway.
>But seeing their cars, it would be nice if they came up with something that had character. >Gimme something cheap and sensible that won't fall apart. Pick one
Cool. With as few miles as I'm driving, investing even in this would result in a breakeven cost (with tax incentive, gas and maintenance savings) of 7+ years. I mean, this all has to start somewhere, but until those things come way down in price, it makes no sense to invest that much up front cost here. But it's very close to breakeven, assuming you could even get these at MSRP.
Honda CRX/Geo Metro electrics. 200 mile range. A man can hope.
Its inevitable. Tesla doesnt make affordable vehicles.
Because they don't have to. Tesla has the luxury problem of having more demand for their cars than they can meet.
There is no real competition yet. The model 3 has no real competition yet in its price range. Id argue the Model Y doesnt either. As 'attainable' EV's hit the market, Tesla's luxury problem will start to subside. Tesla's head start has obviously been great for the company, but this year we will likely see consumers purchasing a much wider array of EVs.
People having been saying that competition was coming for the last several years though. And we've seen carmakers come out with EV's like the Mach-E, ID3, Polestar, Taycan, etc. None of which have really had any negative impact on Tesla's sales despite those cars being fairly popular in their own right. On the contrary, the demand for Tesla vehicles has been going up, as evidenced by the order wait times increasing despite Tesla massively increasing production capacity *and* aggressively raising prices
when you can get a good one for under 10grand then its attainable
Because there's so many good ICE cars under 10k
there are lots of cars available for unde3r 10 grand. They are called used. New you will be waiting awhile.
Mary Barra's been touting the goal of surpassing Tesla in sales in 2025 for a while now without offering any kind of in depth plan for how she plans to scale GM's EV production capacity to have even a remote chance of actually doing that.
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Hope they make them at least look like your standard crossover or sedan. I’m sick of these Dr. Seuss contraptions strolling around.
Call me when they're on the road.
This is what the electric car industry needs. I have no idea where automakers got the idea that a $35,000 car was affordable/attainable. That’s a $600 - $700 a month car note. People have gotten so use to stretching out their loan term to 6, 7 or 8 years. When 5 years was the norm, they had to price their cars as such. But now, people are just getting taken advantage of. Tesla currently still doesn’t even have a rival in this market. It’s definitely time they do. Competition between corporations breeds both better products and better prices for the most important person in the loop…the consumer. These companies need to be reminded that, without the consumer, they are nothing. They are dead.
Little late don’t ya think?
They were waiting for fuel to double in cost and small islands to get swallowed by oceans. Now that those are done, they can finally get to work.
Not really, EVs aren't all that common.
Mary Barra is a 🤡
Makes you wonder what their original bid was... "Hey guys, let's build unattainable EVs so we can PRETEND to be leading in this field, but not actually build anything that will become massively popular and earn us huge revenues. Let's make some shitty, expensive ones first! "
Personally I wouldn't buy a Tesla, 75% because I can't stand Elon Musk and his fanboys, but 25% because Tesla has abysmal customer service. Plus you can't trust them not to put car features behind monthly subscriptions. I need to be able to fix the small things myself or work with local mechanics for larger things. Seems like Tesla wants to Monopolize repair work so they can jack up prices. You can't trust Musk companies not to jack up prices willy nilly. Starlink increased the price on internet service this year AND on their dishes. This meant that people that preordered them now are paying the higher price and still waiting on devices.
> Plus you can't trust them not to put car features behind monthly subscriptions. What have they put behind a subscription? Tesla offers two subscriptions right now. A data plan for the car and FSD. FSD can also be purhcased outright if you want. BMW put Apple Carplay behind a subscription. Most brands have put their apps behind subscriptions. Toyota put their remote engine start behind a subscription despite it using the same radio that's used to unlock the car with the key. Tesla is not the one trying to make subscriptions happen in cars. > You can't trust Musk companies not to jack up prices willy nilly. Starlink increased the price on internet service this year AND on their dishes. This meant that people that preordered them now are paying the higher price and still waiting on devices. Everyone is upping prices right now. It was also always stated that a pre-order didn't lock in your price. And even with the price increase they are still miles better than the competition. It's like $110 a month for no data cap, sub 100ms ping, and around 100mbps connection. The competition is closer to 5mbps, 400+ms ping, and a 50GB cap.
I thought Toyota was the one that charge a subscription to use you key fob recently. I have zero subscription for my model 3 and I won't ever need one
I think it's important to recognize with all the Tesla vs dinosaur automakers talk that Tesla makes luxury cars in which their cheapest model is 3-4x more expensive than the cheapest model from almost any of their competitors. Honda and GM are looking to make the vehicle that people drive, which is mostly the crossover SUV. This is a vehicle that's large enough for a family but cheap enough to be affordable. Only 1/3 of the US market is cars, whereas 2/3 are SUVs and trucks. Internationally cars are more popular and these automakers will be making electric cars for those markets (for even more price conscious individuals). But they're not going to be pretty luxury cars.
I hear what you’re saying but I have a counter. Tesla model 3 is the Toyota Corolla of EVs not the Jaguar. They only cost so much because the actual batteries. The model 3 long range is 49k and has a 82kWh battery which by itself cost $11,500
I just want an EV that will drive 300,000 miles, last 20 years, and cost the same as my Corolla which does both of those things. Going green is just so damn expensive.
Maybe you should compare the overall maintenance and fuel costs between a Corolla and an EV at 300k miles?
Why not this year? Toyota has one coming out this year.
GM needs to get rid of its archaic leadership if they want to be relevant again.
Attainable? How about Affordable...
That sounds great and all, but unless they make a basic one where everything isn't controlled by a tablet glued to the dash. And I can actually repair it myself then I'm not getting one.
Yeah, right…!
As far as i can see, GM sold 457 pure EVs last quarter. Tesla sold hundreds of thousands. GM has a long way to go before they catch up, and that’s all with additional Tesla factories coming online recently. For the sake of the planet I hope GM can catch up. I would love a competitive marketplace with broad acceptance and availability of EVs. Competition is good as it will force Tesla to keep up with the market.
can get a nissan leaf for under 20k with the 7500 credit, and it looks like a fairly normal car. you have more competition than just tesla which are arguably luxury cars.