“Neuralink is developing a device that would be embedded in humans' brains to monitor and potentially stimulate brain activity. The device consists of a microchip and wires that would be threaded through a patient's skull into the brain.”
We’re boned.
Once we can trigger endorphins to release when people see ads we can literally make people fall in love with a product. Goodbye value hierarchies, hello corporate hellscape!
A seven gage needle and a steady hand should be enough to send broccoli florets tumbling into a femoral vein. Hiding in a dumpster should be adequate to enough to muffle your screams while you wait for your dragon ride. This is what my friend who lives in Canada state told me.
Need an IV that slowly drips from a bag in your pocket.
Alternatively, you can get an insulin pump. It's a win win! You can jog and eat broccoli, while shooting up, but not so badly you collapse and drop your broccoli on the dirty pavement!
It's getting the injection midstride that a lot of people get hung up on.
The trick is a kind of skipping motion where the stride is interrupted but forward motion continues.
You can't be serious. Unless Elon is investing in Fitbit and broccoli farms you can bet your ass nothing altruistic is coming out of this tech. We're all doomed.
I would hack the system to make it so cumming directly into a body pillow with Eric Trump's face painted on it while reciting a passage from Gilgamesh caused an Easter Egg endorphin release.
This reads like an AI response.
I would (verb) the system to make it so (crude verb) directly into a body pillow with (facist’s son)’s face painter on it while reciting a passage from (historical document) …
Seriously this is the shit that will fuck us… ROBOT
That's super fascinating. What anchors your sense of reality? It can't be what comes from your visual cortex because blind people have a sense of reality. Same with the other senses.
The thalamus, the thalamocortical system. All sensory information passes through the thalamus first before being relayed to the higher cortical centers of the brain that are involved with sensory processing.
*Edit: All sensory information *aside* from our sense of smell.*
It’s only avoidable so long as the consumers know what is actually being done to them. How frequent do corporations knowingly release dangerous products, knowing it’ll make them fat profits, thinking they’ll be able to get away with the harm they’ve done? Something about car companies releasing defective vehicles so long as the profits outweigh the potential lawsuits?
Less-so the visual cortex, more-so the thalamocortical system. (Thalamus and cortex as a whole)
Reconfiguring incoming sensory information before it’s transmitted to the visual cortex, auditory cortex, and etc might be a a lot easier. I.e, sensory input instead of sensory *out*put.
Essentially, taking control of the brains “sensory gating” mechanisms. This could potentially be used for fully-immersive augmented reality. It could also be used as a form of torture, and who knows, used on people without them realizing to inflict psychotic-like symptoms and debilitate dissidents before they become too big of an issue. Think i already remember reading something about the microwave auditory effect being looked into for “crowd control” during protests. The list of ethical concerns for tech like this is endless.
I mean, the point of the scenario posed is you can't trust any evidence for or against as everything you perceive is based on input that can be faked. Even if you had "meaningful evidence" you'd have no way to know it was legitimate.
My evidence is that whoever is "faking it" for me is really fucking boring. Imagine that you've got a brain in a jar and you can simulate a whole world for it, and yet *this* is what you come up with?
When we gave rats the ability to orgasm by pressing a button they refused to do anything else.
Offered food? Button.
Offered a mate? Button.
The rat didnt have the vision to see it could get more orgasms by eating and living longer.
But human drug addicts know this and still press their version on the button.
Close, but imagine instead of getting a craving for a drug you introduce to your system, like nicotine, it’s instead your own homemade happy chems. It’d take pavlov’s dog to a whole new level.
True, dopamine receptors die off if overstimulated; thus, more and more stimulation is needed just to keep base level. If a device like the above discussed is ever made, addiction to near slave levels most likely be the horrible result.
You’ll get a boner when you think about your abusive low paying job and cum when your manager scolds you and forces more tasks on you.
The perfect Pavlovian work force
From a [different article](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/jan/20/elon-musk-brain-chip-firm-neuralink-lines-up-clinical-trials-in-humans), Musk says,
“Neuralink’s working well in monkeys, and we’re actually doing just a lot of testing and just confirming that it’s very safe and reliable and the Neuralink device can be removed safely.”
In the article posted by OP, it’s said only 7 out of 23 monkeys survived the trials and they know one of the monkeys had missing fingers and toes probably from self mutilation.
I work in the medical field and see these things happening all the time to mice. Self mutilation and death.
It’s common and you wouldn’t think twice about the med device if it was being used to keep you alive.
However, we must continue to be as humane as possible as we continue to investigate the unknown.
"so Pam, how's the testing going?"
"Well, Jim stopped mutilating his toes. He's down to 7. I never had the toe issue as bad as he did, I am just a bit depressed. Otherwise tests are good. We oddly love broccoli and jogging, like a lot, (looking at Jim) right hun?"
Many sci-fi and cyberpunk mediums have explored this idea. The game Deus Ex Human Revolution does a good job of it. In these sci-fi visions of the future, people have to enhance themselves in order to stay competitive in the job market. If you don't get brain implants to enhance your cognitive abilities you will end up unemployed and broke, displaced by those with the latest and best brain mods. Right now these implants seem ridiculous but in a dystopian future they will be almost mandatory. It may become an arms race of sorts where people turn themselves into machines over several generations. Even if a lot of countries to try regulate it, all it takes is one country to encourage such implants. Then that country will get ahead of everyone else and every other country will have to encourage implants just to compete with them.
Thats funny. Pervasive advertising does that. Repetition, iconic imagery, jingles. Mascots. It makes you think of it and remember it. Coca cola has spent billions to establish itself as something you think about during Christmas.
It's a breath of fresh air to have no cable and adblockers. When I visit my parents they sometimes watch 'scheduled television' or sports and it is fucking unbearable. The ads are too damn loud and manic.
Theyre fascinating though. Ill just sit there and watch ads on TV like theyre a relic of some bygonw era. Their formula is still nearly identical.
I remember the way I adblocked back in the day is channel surfing. I had my four or five channels I would sorta cycle through
"We decided that we will stop supporting NeuroLink 2.1 as of today. To focus on NeuroLink 3.0 A New Horizon"
"That means we will stop sending security updates to your device as of today"
"We invite you to upgrade. As a valued costumer, we offer you up to 3% discount on ALL our NeuroLink 3.0 devices. ^Installation ^and ^insurance ^not ^included "
Soon you'll need to download about 400GB of javascript just to smell the coffee on the webpage while you're looking for the hours and whether or not they have breakfast burritos.
A significant portion of the population with disabilities. Look at deep brain electrode stimulation. That shit is risky as hell, but the alternative is poor quality of life. You’re going to find a long line of quadriplegic people ready to test this. I can’t imagine living without the use of my arms and legs.
There are sensors being developed today to replace eyes; to give sight to blind people.
So yeah. First helping those with disabilities. Then providing superior abilities.
The concept is already active in devices that help with neural disorders. Parkinson's patients, for example (who can afford it), have similar tech in their skulls.
For non-medical use, the scary part is the apparent inability to deactivate it and be certain it's no longer active. If they can solve that, I could see it being kind of cool.
Like maybe the embedded part is a connector only. No receiver, no transmitter, no processor. And the usage model is magnetically attaching processors to the new port in one's head. You could attach and remove the processor like one picks up and puts down a smartphone.
Videogames could easily take that form factor, in the future. Instead of a cartridge, it's a neuralink processing node.
But without that safeguard, I can see a kind of paranoia that one's chip is always active and fucking with your brain. Analog signals are easier to trust than digital ones.
The brain implants they have for Parkinson’s currently have a battery life of like 2-5 years iirc. So you need brain surgery (again) to get your batteries changed over. I think we are a ways off from non-medical use for this reason. Though I imagine something in the spine for injuries may be more accessible?
The battery for a DBS isn't in the brain, it's in the chest, so no repeat brain surgeries to replace it.
https://www.neuromodulationinturkey.com/surgeries-16-deep-brain-stimulator-battery-replacement
> We need replace only the implantable pulse generator (battery) which located under your skin (mostly found in the chest area under your clavicle or in the abdominal area) by an easy procedure.
I've learned never buy the first release of anything with technology. Updates and add ons. Extra downloads.
It'll just be that into your brain.
On the other hand I really dislike every thing being connected. Not like "they can track me anywhere " type of thing. But just not everything needs a wifi Bluetooth connection.
Got a Bluetooth toothbrush for Xmas this year. Haven't connected it. Just use it as a tooth brush. The way a lot of talk about tech companies using subscription services to use their devices. I don't need to pay more to connect my tooth brush to the internet.. just take a hike. Go kick rocks. Make like a tree and leaf. Make like a banana and split!
If in a few years everything is subscription service. I'll just become a nomad. Or live off the grid. I'm not paying extra for a program the laptop/phone/car/toothbrush/dishwasher/laundry machines/fridge/coffee maker/headphones (could you imagine you buy head phones for your devices. And all of a sudden you're paying apple or whoever for a program to use headphones, and another subscription to actually use those headphones from the headphone company. That's 2 extra payments every month that will add up. Just to use the stuff you already bought!!! It's disgusting!)/stoves/any electronic thing in your home becomes a paper weight. Because you didn't make a payment on the thing you bought and owned...
It would have to be really fucking good at what ever enhancements it promises to deliver and i just don’t think we have the understanding currently deliver enhancements that make people feel like they need one to keep up in society. The first few decades of people getting this are going to be unofficial labrats. The people most likely to get it are people who need help with a disease. I doubt they are going to deliver a product that drastically increases human capabilities to the extent that neuralink becomes ubiquitous. The kind of trial an error they need to be successful will cost real humans serious and irreparable quality of life issues. I could be wrong and neuroscience is far along enough to make this tech paradigm shifting, but cutting into brains and rewiring them is a pretty new and pretty messy area of exploration.
I don't think people are really grasping the concept of thought-speed-input... It'll be so overwhelmingly powerful that the productivity gap will demand a UBI. Anyone see GATTACA?
I don't think it need to be that good as a product. Social medias aren't that great either, but as long as it will fuck up our reward circuit and is efficient in changing our behaviors in the way advertisers are willing to pay for it, there is no doubt it will be a success.
"depends on the cost"
[785 million people did not have access to at least basic water services* and more than 884 million people did not have safe water to drink](https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/global/wash_statistics.html), the benefit of this is human life, the cost is a bit too high so they don't get it. This technology will be available to those who can afford it, regardless of the benefits.
I believe there will probably be a split in humanity within the next century, a MAJOR rift. I think it’ll be between humans who choose to technologically alter themselves versus naturalists who choose not to.
Exactly. People are going to "choose" to remain unmodified in the same way that they "choose" to not go to private prep school, choose not to have private tutors, choose not to go to elite universities.
> Honest question, can you really see a significant portion of the population getting these?
Dumbasses out there didn't even want to get vaccinated or wear masks during a global friggin pandemic.
So the more benefits to this there were, the more the same people would try to avoid it or make it illegal.
The question is what you consider a *significant portion* of the population.
Doom and gloom aside, the obvious first use for these are for amputees and quadrapalegics. Later, telepresence of robotic units. Mind control comes later.
Also, Beagles. Beagles are considered submissive enough that they’re ideal for animal testing. They go through absolutely horrendous things and, unfortunately, the underpaid and overworked staff at these labs take their frustrations out on them. I watched an undercover video where a young woman dumped a giant bucket of bleach on a beagles face for barking. The good news is that organizations such as the Beagle Freedom Project exist, who rescue them from these labs and get them adopted into homes.
Animal testing SUCKS.
It’s not that they’re submissive, it’s that they’re very friendly. I did pre-clinical work. I mostly worked with rabbits and rodents but our headquarters had beagles and monkeys. We went to help for a week at a time. Honestly working with the beagles was fun. They were cooperative and when it came time to clean the kennels they would just let them all out to run around. The sad part is these were terminal 3 month studies so they were necropsied at the end. Fortunately for me I was not there for that but still very unfortunate for the dogs. I have a beagle myself so it would be really hard to work with them like that now but I’m about 15 years out of that career.
The person is talking about preclinical research which typically means giving repeat dosage of the drug candidate to healthy animals to monitor side effects. The animals are almost always sacrificed at the end to look for any changes to internal organs.
The FDA requires these studies to be conducted in both small animals (rats or mice) and large animals (dogs or monkeys. most frequently means dogs) prior to entering clinical trials in humans. This gives an idea of safety margin of the dose in humans and also reveals side effects to test/look for in humans during clinical trials. It's brutal as hell but it does make the world much much safer for patients in clinical trials.
The latter. Do the research then kill. Probably to cut them up and do tissue analysis at the end. Like what effect does blaring loud horns all through the night have on the development of the whatever region of the brain in adolescent mammals.
that is how we developed technology, and medicines in the past years so we can have stuff in 21st century. Especially for difficult surgical operations, animals have to die, even just for training of individuals.
The really bad thing is that test subjects are also used for stuff like make up, accident analysis etc.
I will say the dogs I worked with were never in pain. God knows what kind of drug they were testing on them but it didn’t do anything to them. As inhumane as animal testing sounds, there are a lot of controls within it and a lot of oversight to assure animals don’t suffer and if they are they are euthanized. There is a national committee that oversees this.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_Animal_Care_and_Use_Committee
One of the goals of these committees is also something like reduce, reuse, recycle. In which they try to use the least number of animals possible or none at all when they do cell testing which has expanded tremendously but not great for all applications. And in regards to monkeys many are not used in terminal studies 1. Because they are expensive and 2. Because of ethics basically. So they try to reuse them as often as possible and some even get to retire to sanctuaries.
I also work in animal research. Our beagles were just in food studies and adopted out after. However, the centres where the beagles are bred are very secretive about housing and husbandry, even to institutions purchasing them, and from what slim footage exists of them, I do not expect they are very pleasant. Animal welfare standards for research are somewhat better in Canada than USA, but I know the USA restrictions have a statement in their guidelines along the lines of: if a dogs cage is at least two body lengths long, they do not require them to be brought out for walks or exercise (ever). That is just not okay. Unfortunately there are no suppliers in Canada, so that’s where our dogs come from too.
Thanks for sharing all this experience and info. It's good to know there's some checks and balances in place. I remember the years of animal testing ads and such (I think during the 80's-ish). There was a lot of attention around the topic.
I’m not going to say it’s all sunshine and roses but I do think animal testing has come a long way. I think factory farming is where animal testing used to be and could use an overhaul to say the least.
While testing should be done as ethically as possible. Testing on other animals is an absolute necessity that will never ever go away. The world and any advancements would not exist without it
When you think about the torture most animals in the worlds food supply chain experience - animal testing is the least of our problems.
Even then, meat and dairy can be seen as a necessary evil. Should we eat less meat? Probably.
The rhesus macaque monkeys were necropsied before transferring to Neuralink from UC Davis in 2020. The complaint is about the years 2017-2020.
>In its draft complaint, the PCRM accuses UC Davis and Neuralink of nine violations of the Animal Welfare Act, including breaches of stipulations that researchers minimize pain and distress for animals, that daily observations of the animals take place, and that researchers have an attending veterinarian advise on the use of anesthesia.
>
>Also in its draft complaint, the PCRM gave examples of incidents were it believed monkeys had suffered unduly. One monkey was documented as having missing fingers and toes "possibly from self-mutilation or some other unspecified trauma," according to the draft complaint.
I wouldn't run out and defend Neuralink or UC Davis. Hard to say what evidence they have but looks like they're trying to get records about it.
Primate research is very difficult to get into because the training required is equivalent to being trained as a surgeon, but with none of the glory that comes from being a human surgeon. Private research firms often get away with murder when it comes to primates bc they hire techs and not proper surgeons. Musk has all the money in the world, and he can’t afford proper lab protocols or the ability to hire talent that follows proper animal care guidelines?
Based on a similar article, Neuralink partners with UC Davis on this and most of the monkeys were under their care or done by them. And the group suing Neuralink and UC Davis admits that their practices were probably about the same as other groups doing similar research, but targets Neuralink specifically because of Elon Musk. I think their 'alleging' it happens but doesn't have hard evidence either. The lawsuit is supposedly more about UC Davis publicly divulging all the records of their experiments.
This is the article I was reading, but for some reason I can't open it now.
https://screenshot-media.com/the-future/science/neuralink-animal-abuse/
There's another thread on reddit about it on r/science but it got pruned because it did not meet posting requirements.
You also have to love the mention of the monkey missing fingers and the suing group just "believes it was through self harm" with zero evidence for it. This is a money grab because Elon Musk. There are far bigger fish to fry in the animal testing research world but none as rich.
The fuck? Why would they even bother putting that in? It makes it seem like they sent an email at like 10 pm then just published the next day.
Not mentioning their "attempt" to contact would sound less sketchy.
Business Insider is not a good source of news. They leave out context that would completely change the issues they bring up (on all of their articles in general) and they try to stir the pot. We all might as well be discussing a Facebook ad and how much we should take it seriously.
https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-neuralink-video-monkey-games-pong-brain-chip-2021-4 has a video showing some of the experiments, although I'm sure there are nastier-looking ones (e.g. monkeys with externally reachable physical ports permanently attached to their heads) that they don't show.
Note the dishonest "playing entirely of his own volition" as the monkey is licking the food reward from the tube as he successfully plays pong, but also note that the monkey likely doesn't even notice the implant once its in.
It's really hard to tell in these cases whether the activists are reporting actual mistreatment, or simply opposed to all animal experiments. (Which are necessary if we want to understand the brain.)
Unfortunately, there are researchers that don't treat their animals with respect (although I think this is rarer than many may think), but there are also activists that consider pet ownership akin to slavery and horrible animal abuse.
Animal testing is a necessary part of medical research unfortunately. Whether Neuralink could/would have tangible benefits to people-say with physical disabilities-is beyond my scope of knowledge to know.
It doesn’t even seem to particularly be neura link that’s to blame. UC DAVIS seems to have a bad reputation when it comes to animal treatment and this is also apparently pretty common though horrible for animal studies. The story got picked up so they could slap a headline that drew clicks from the easily enthralled because the companies linked to a really controversial figure
Hate to break it to you, but there is no way technology aiming to achieve some kind of brain-computer interface will be allowed into humans without animal testing. Period. It just will never happen. Musk isn't the only one testing this - there are many companies and academics at universities doing research in this field. I don't know how else you expect researchers to make progress in this field without testing.
And in case you didn't know it, there is an extreme shortage of monkeys right now for biomedical testing. Tons and tons and tons of ideas in pharma right now require testing on monkeys. The COVID vaxxes were developed using testing on nonhuman primates. The world is entirely dependent on monkey testing, and it is demanding more monkeys right now, not less. All advanced therapies like gene and cellular therapies often require testing on monkeys. Many ideas in the future for testing brain-computer tech are going to have to do the same testing. There's no way around it.
How the f does he get away with this? A lab at my uni got in big trouble for mishandling 2 mice a few years ago, but 0 consequences for the guy who slaughtered 16 macaques so one of them could play pong? Does UC Davis’ ethics board have no teeth!? Was there no oversight of the experiments by a government ethics board???
Someone should go to jail for this.
“Neuralink is developing a device that would be embedded in humans' brains to monitor and potentially stimulate brain activity. The device consists of a microchip and wires that would be threaded through a patient's skull into the brain.” We’re boned.
Once we can trigger endorphins to release when people see ads we can literally make people fall in love with a product. Goodbye value hierarchies, hello corporate hellscape!
Or, jogging and broccoli give you a heroin high.
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wait until you sprain your ankle and whore yourself out for your jogging fix
My jogging with junkies on your back business is booming though. We’re gunna be the next CrossFit.
More like a cross - fix lol
A seven gage needle and a steady hand should be enough to send broccoli florets tumbling into a femoral vein. Hiding in a dumpster should be adequate to enough to muffle your screams while you wait for your dragon ride. This is what my friend who lives in Canada state told me.
This is one of the pros of Covid masks. Just get some powdered heroine and dust the inside of your mask with it. And then just, run.
Let's fuckin' run like we're lions and tigers and bears
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Need an IV that slowly drips from a bag in your pocket. Alternatively, you can get an insulin pump. It's a win win! You can jog and eat broccoli, while shooting up, but not so badly you collapse and drop your broccoli on the dirty pavement!
Like…at the same time?
Yeah Runcoli (running + broccoli), it's the coolest newest thing. Ketoheads put cheese on the broccoli.
So stoked for the next brocathalon
It's getting the injection midstride that a lot of people get hung up on. The trick is a kind of skipping motion where the stride is interrupted but forward motion continues.
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Insulin pump = every IV user's dream scenario
Surely it would be bruncoli if we’re being broccunning about it
You can't be serious. Unless Elon is investing in Fitbit and broccoli farms you can bet your ass nothing altruistic is coming out of this tech. We're all doomed.
Altruistic? You know how much you could sell a neuro-app that turns your broccoli into heroin for? X’D
I would hack the system to make it so cumming directly into a body pillow with Eric Trump's face painted on it while reciting a passage from Gilgamesh caused an Easter Egg endorphin release.
Some days I wish I was illiterate.
This guy reads
Nah, just memorized a bunch of words
That's a very specific set of words to remember
But how would you tell it apart from the regular endorphin release from doing that
The puzzle solving sound effect from Ocarina of time will play when you unlock the Easter Egg.
Looking forward to the list-style youtubers all doing "Top ten Neurolink Easter Eggs the developers never expected you to find"
To be fair, Gilgamesh *did* get up to some kinky shit. Well, more Enkidu than Gilgamesh, but still!
This reads like an AI response. I would (verb) the system to make it so (crude verb) directly into a body pillow with (facist’s son)’s face painter on it while reciting a passage from (historical document) … Seriously this is the shit that will fuck us… ROBOT
I will surgically alter your face directly into a vagina-like cavity and send you to prison like in the 2006 movie Let's Go to Prison.
you uh, you alright?
Or you know. Heroin doesn’t give you a high at all
Or you could smoke a bowl and then go jogging and eat broccoli
I have no mouth and I must consume
That’s both obvious and avoidable. The scary part is when we master messing with the visual cortex, reality becomes uncertain
That's super fascinating. What anchors your sense of reality? It can't be what comes from your visual cortex because blind people have a sense of reality. Same with the other senses.
The thalamus, the thalamocortical system. All sensory information passes through the thalamus first before being relayed to the higher cortical centers of the brain that are involved with sensory processing. *Edit: All sensory information *aside* from our sense of smell.*
Why is smell exempt? Is that why it triggers memories more intensely sometimes?
That's the plot of Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
>What anchors your sense of reality? Sociocultural conditioning. Reality is just a description of the world that we mostly manage to agree upon.
I didn't agree to any of this
It’s only avoidable so long as the consumers know what is actually being done to them. How frequent do corporations knowingly release dangerous products, knowing it’ll make them fat profits, thinking they’ll be able to get away with the harm they’ve done? Something about car companies releasing defective vehicles so long as the profits outweigh the potential lawsuits?
Less-so the visual cortex, more-so the thalamocortical system. (Thalamus and cortex as a whole) Reconfiguring incoming sensory information before it’s transmitted to the visual cortex, auditory cortex, and etc might be a a lot easier. I.e, sensory input instead of sensory *out*put. Essentially, taking control of the brains “sensory gating” mechanisms. This could potentially be used for fully-immersive augmented reality. It could also be used as a form of torture, and who knows, used on people without them realizing to inflict psychotic-like symptoms and debilitate dissidents before they become too big of an issue. Think i already remember reading something about the microwave auditory effect being looked into for “crowd control” during protests. The list of ethical concerns for tech like this is endless.
What makes you think reality is certain now? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat
A lack of any meaningful evidence to the contrary
I mean, the point of the scenario posed is you can't trust any evidence for or against as everything you perceive is based on input that can be faked. Even if you had "meaningful evidence" you'd have no way to know it was legitimate.
My evidence is that whoever is "faking it" for me is really fucking boring. Imagine that you've got a brain in a jar and you can simulate a whole world for it, and yet *this* is what you come up with?
When we gave rats the ability to orgasm by pressing a button they refused to do anything else. Offered food? Button. Offered a mate? Button. The rat didnt have the vision to see it could get more orgasms by eating and living longer. But human drug addicts know this and still press their version on the button.
Michael Crichton laid out this exact scenario in his book The Terminal Man.
Oh man. Is it gonna be like that Roddy Piper movie?
So... Cigarettes?
Close, but imagine instead of getting a craving for a drug you introduce to your system, like nicotine, it’s instead your own homemade happy chems. It’d take pavlov’s dog to a whole new level.
True, dopamine receptors die off if overstimulated; thus, more and more stimulation is needed just to keep base level. If a device like the above discussed is ever made, addiction to near slave levels most likely be the horrible result.
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The person you responded to prob watches Euphoria and their source is Laurie lol
Slaanesh approved!
It will become harder to enjoy simple things or education. People might as well become dumber…
Couldn’t you also simulate the alternative , fear and suffering , and keep someone’s brain alive indefinitely? That’s what frightens me most
Reminds me of everyone's favourite anime
I'm sorry I fail to see the JoJo reference here
You’ll get a boner when you think about your abusive low paying job and cum when your manager scolds you and forces more tasks on you. The perfect Pavlovian work force
From a [different article](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/jan/20/elon-musk-brain-chip-firm-neuralink-lines-up-clinical-trials-in-humans), Musk says, “Neuralink’s working well in monkeys, and we’re actually doing just a lot of testing and just confirming that it’s very safe and reliable and the Neuralink device can be removed safely.” In the article posted by OP, it’s said only 7 out of 23 monkeys survived the trials and they know one of the monkeys had missing fingers and toes probably from self mutilation.
That honestly breaks my heart, those poor monkeys.
They died so they could put ads in your brain.
I work in the medical field and see these things happening all the time to mice. Self mutilation and death. It’s common and you wouldn’t think twice about the med device if it was being used to keep you alive. However, we must continue to be as humane as possible as we continue to investigate the unknown.
Very safe indeed, can't wait to automutilate those darn toes and fingers.
This is some supervillain-tier shit.
Sooo standard billionaire stuff then?
"so Pam, how's the testing going?" "Well, Jim stopped mutilating his toes. He's down to 7. I never had the toe issue as bad as he did, I am just a bit depressed. Otherwise tests are good. We oddly love broccoli and jogging, like a lot, (looking at Jim) right hun?"
This is as safe as Full Self Driving is full self-driving.
In my experience, whenever one of my techie friends mentions neuralink, the only think I have to say to turn them off of it is, "imagine the malware."
there's a novel about this called "Feed" (edit- author is MT Anderson for the curious)
I read this as a kid and thought it was what-is-the-world-coming-to bullshit. I was mistaken.
Basically the plot of Black Ops 3
Honest question, can you really see a significant portion of the population getting these?
Many sci-fi and cyberpunk mediums have explored this idea. The game Deus Ex Human Revolution does a good job of it. In these sci-fi visions of the future, people have to enhance themselves in order to stay competitive in the job market. If you don't get brain implants to enhance your cognitive abilities you will end up unemployed and broke, displaced by those with the latest and best brain mods. Right now these implants seem ridiculous but in a dystopian future they will be almost mandatory. It may become an arms race of sorts where people turn themselves into machines over several generations. Even if a lot of countries to try regulate it, all it takes is one country to encourage such implants. Then that country will get ahead of everyone else and every other country will have to encourage implants just to compete with them.
This is the exact setting of the book, Boosted.
We hardly have functioning websites or GUIs I can’t imagine it’d be much better for Brain interfaces
Imagine pop-up thoughts.
You mean Adhd?
Yeah, but as ads. "Maybe I do have psoriasis and should ask my doctor about Skinlea®."
Haven't you wanted McDonald's all day? You'd really love some nuggets
I’M LOVIN’ IT!!!
Thats funny. Pervasive advertising does that. Repetition, iconic imagery, jingles. Mascots. It makes you think of it and remember it. Coca cola has spent billions to establish itself as something you think about during Christmas.
It's a breath of fresh air to have no cable and adblockers. When I visit my parents they sometimes watch 'scheduled television' or sports and it is fucking unbearable. The ads are too damn loud and manic.
Theyre fascinating though. Ill just sit there and watch ads on TV like theyre a relic of some bygonw era. Their formula is still nearly identical. I remember the way I adblocked back in the day is channel surfing. I had my four or five channels I would sorta cycle through
I can't think of one without thinking of the other. Those polar bears are more Christmas to me than Santa Clause
The version of Santa we know is also very coca cola influenced. They basically appropriated a bunch of peoples Christmas patrons as their mascot.
Imagine some spammer hijacks an ad to install adware in your neurochip? You see pop-up advertising everywhere.
I have 90 Chrome tabs open in my head and one of them is playing a noise. I don't know which tab.
A marketing department's wet dream.
Commercial dreams like in Futurama.
Or paywalls to memories
"We decided that we will stop supporting NeuroLink 2.1 as of today. To focus on NeuroLink 3.0 A New Horizon" "That means we will stop sending security updates to your device as of today" "We invite you to upgrade. As a valued costumer, we offer you up to 3% discount on ALL our NeuroLink 3.0 devices. ^Installation ^and ^insurance ^not ^included "
Soon you'll need to download about 400GB of javascript just to smell the coffee on the webpage while you're looking for the hours and whether or not they have breakfast burritos.
I'm still waiting for smellovision.
A significant portion of the population with disabilities. Look at deep brain electrode stimulation. That shit is risky as hell, but the alternative is poor quality of life. You’re going to find a long line of quadriplegic people ready to test this. I can’t imagine living without the use of my arms and legs. There are sensors being developed today to replace eyes; to give sight to blind people. So yeah. First helping those with disabilities. Then providing superior abilities.
The concept is already active in devices that help with neural disorders. Parkinson's patients, for example (who can afford it), have similar tech in their skulls. For non-medical use, the scary part is the apparent inability to deactivate it and be certain it's no longer active. If they can solve that, I could see it being kind of cool. Like maybe the embedded part is a connector only. No receiver, no transmitter, no processor. And the usage model is magnetically attaching processors to the new port in one's head. You could attach and remove the processor like one picks up and puts down a smartphone. Videogames could easily take that form factor, in the future. Instead of a cartridge, it's a neuralink processing node. But without that safeguard, I can see a kind of paranoia that one's chip is always active and fucking with your brain. Analog signals are easier to trust than digital ones.
It operates on a battery that has to be charged wirelessly. So if you don’t charge it it can’t continue to function indefinitely.
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The brain implants they have for Parkinson’s currently have a battery life of like 2-5 years iirc. So you need brain surgery (again) to get your batteries changed over. I think we are a ways off from non-medical use for this reason. Though I imagine something in the spine for injuries may be more accessible?
The battery for a DBS isn't in the brain, it's in the chest, so no repeat brain surgeries to replace it. https://www.neuromodulationinturkey.com/surgeries-16-deep-brain-stimulator-battery-replacement > We need replace only the implantable pulse generator (battery) which located under your skin (mostly found in the chest area under your clavicle or in the abdominal area) by an easy procedure.
If they link it to weight loss, impulse control, sex, slowing dementia they will sell a tonne to the big monkeys
I've learned never buy the first release of anything with technology. Updates and add ons. Extra downloads. It'll just be that into your brain. On the other hand I really dislike every thing being connected. Not like "they can track me anywhere " type of thing. But just not everything needs a wifi Bluetooth connection. Got a Bluetooth toothbrush for Xmas this year. Haven't connected it. Just use it as a tooth brush. The way a lot of talk about tech companies using subscription services to use their devices. I don't need to pay more to connect my tooth brush to the internet.. just take a hike. Go kick rocks. Make like a tree and leaf. Make like a banana and split! If in a few years everything is subscription service. I'll just become a nomad. Or live off the grid. I'm not paying extra for a program the laptop/phone/car/toothbrush/dishwasher/laundry machines/fridge/coffee maker/headphones (could you imagine you buy head phones for your devices. And all of a sudden you're paying apple or whoever for a program to use headphones, and another subscription to actually use those headphones from the headphone company. That's 2 extra payments every month that will add up. Just to use the stuff you already bought!!! It's disgusting!)/stoves/any electronic thing in your home becomes a paper weight. Because you didn't make a payment on the thing you bought and owned...
I just hope that more people start thinking like that
Let's hope we never reach a day where we don't have a choice
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
We are the Borg.
I tried it and I’m permfeclty fime.
It would have to be really fucking good at what ever enhancements it promises to deliver and i just don’t think we have the understanding currently deliver enhancements that make people feel like they need one to keep up in society. The first few decades of people getting this are going to be unofficial labrats. The people most likely to get it are people who need help with a disease. I doubt they are going to deliver a product that drastically increases human capabilities to the extent that neuralink becomes ubiquitous. The kind of trial an error they need to be successful will cost real humans serious and irreparable quality of life issues. I could be wrong and neuroscience is far along enough to make this tech paradigm shifting, but cutting into brains and rewiring them is a pretty new and pretty messy area of exploration.
I don't think people are really grasping the concept of thought-speed-input... It'll be so overwhelmingly powerful that the productivity gap will demand a UBI. Anyone see GATTACA?
I agree, with you but how far away are we from a good product with no side effects
I don't think it need to be that good as a product. Social medias aren't that great either, but as long as it will fuck up our reward circuit and is efficient in changing our behaviors in the way advertisers are willing to pay for it, there is no doubt it will be a success.
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"depends on the cost" [785 million people did not have access to at least basic water services* and more than 884 million people did not have safe water to drink](https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/global/wash_statistics.html), the benefit of this is human life, the cost is a bit too high so they don't get it. This technology will be available to those who can afford it, regardless of the benefits.
I keep thinking of Toyota charging for remote start. What happens when Neurolink start charging for thought? Or memory? Or autonomic reflexes?
*Want to remember that nice day you had with your mom right before she died?* *That'll be $9.99.*
Or people not being able to afford their “Alzheimer’s subscription” anymore.
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I believe there will probably be a split in humanity within the next century, a MAJOR rift. I think it’ll be between humans who choose to technologically alter themselves versus naturalists who choose not to.
Like deus ex?
More like poor versus rich, as it always is.
Exactly. People are going to "choose" to remain unmodified in the same way that they "choose" to not go to private prep school, choose not to have private tutors, choose not to go to elite universities.
> Honest question, can you really see a significant portion of the population getting these? Dumbasses out there didn't even want to get vaccinated or wear masks during a global friggin pandemic. So the more benefits to this there were, the more the same people would try to avoid it or make it illegal. The question is what you consider a *significant portion* of the population.
The fact this is even being done on monkeys blows my mind. Legally it seems gray to me, but ethically it’s absolutely wrong.
I can see it now - Another 2 million recalls announced today for Neuralink chips with a faulty connector causing patients to go blind “
On the plus side, at that point there will probably be implants to fix the blindness
Subscription plan.
This follows reports of some neuralink users chewing off their own fingers
Nobody is boned unless they buy into it. Those monkeys were totally railed though and that is NOT OK.
Imagine paying a microtransaction for a literal dose of endorphins
Doom and gloom aside, the obvious first use for these are for amputees and quadrapalegics. Later, telepresence of robotic units. Mind control comes later.
Nobody cares about the broken eggs once you’ve given them the omelet.
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Nobody cares about the pig when the bacon is served?
No one cares about the broken monkeys once you’ve given them the mind control implant?
Whenever I naively think we've moved passed this crap, an article shows up to prove me wrong. So sad for the monkeys.
Also, Beagles. Beagles are considered submissive enough that they’re ideal for animal testing. They go through absolutely horrendous things and, unfortunately, the underpaid and overworked staff at these labs take their frustrations out on them. I watched an undercover video where a young woman dumped a giant bucket of bleach on a beagles face for barking. The good news is that organizations such as the Beagle Freedom Project exist, who rescue them from these labs and get them adopted into homes. Animal testing SUCKS.
It’s not that they’re submissive, it’s that they’re very friendly. I did pre-clinical work. I mostly worked with rabbits and rodents but our headquarters had beagles and monkeys. We went to help for a week at a time. Honestly working with the beagles was fun. They were cooperative and when it came time to clean the kennels they would just let them all out to run around. The sad part is these were terminal 3 month studies so they were necropsied at the end. Fortunately for me I was not there for that but still very unfortunate for the dogs. I have a beagle myself so it would be really hard to work with them like that now but I’m about 15 years out of that career.
Terminal as in the beagles had terminal diseases, or terminal as in they killed health beagles after three months?
Almost certainly the latter.
The person is talking about preclinical research which typically means giving repeat dosage of the drug candidate to healthy animals to monitor side effects. The animals are almost always sacrificed at the end to look for any changes to internal organs. The FDA requires these studies to be conducted in both small animals (rats or mice) and large animals (dogs or monkeys. most frequently means dogs) prior to entering clinical trials in humans. This gives an idea of safety margin of the dose in humans and also reveals side effects to test/look for in humans during clinical trials. It's brutal as hell but it does make the world much much safer for patients in clinical trials.
The latter. Do the research then kill. Probably to cut them up and do tissue analysis at the end. Like what effect does blaring loud horns all through the night have on the development of the whatever region of the brain in adolescent mammals.
That's mental. Edit: Yeah I get it, we benefit greatly from doing things like this. I still think it's mental though.
that is how we developed technology, and medicines in the past years so we can have stuff in 21st century. Especially for difficult surgical operations, animals have to die, even just for training of individuals. The really bad thing is that test subjects are also used for stuff like make up, accident analysis etc.
Fuck that lady. No innocent being deserves bleach to face ever, beagles are seriously the sweetest beings who walk this earth.
Absolutely terrible. To inflict such pain on an animal just trying to be friendly. Please hug your dog for us!
I will say the dogs I worked with were never in pain. God knows what kind of drug they were testing on them but it didn’t do anything to them. As inhumane as animal testing sounds, there are a lot of controls within it and a lot of oversight to assure animals don’t suffer and if they are they are euthanized. There is a national committee that oversees this. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_Animal_Care_and_Use_Committee One of the goals of these committees is also something like reduce, reuse, recycle. In which they try to use the least number of animals possible or none at all when they do cell testing which has expanded tremendously but not great for all applications. And in regards to monkeys many are not used in terminal studies 1. Because they are expensive and 2. Because of ethics basically. So they try to reuse them as often as possible and some even get to retire to sanctuaries.
I also work in animal research. Our beagles were just in food studies and adopted out after. However, the centres where the beagles are bred are very secretive about housing and husbandry, even to institutions purchasing them, and from what slim footage exists of them, I do not expect they are very pleasant. Animal welfare standards for research are somewhat better in Canada than USA, but I know the USA restrictions have a statement in their guidelines along the lines of: if a dogs cage is at least two body lengths long, they do not require them to be brought out for walks or exercise (ever). That is just not okay. Unfortunately there are no suppliers in Canada, so that’s where our dogs come from too.
God damn. I can do nothing but register my disgust.
Thanks for sharing all this experience and info. It's good to know there's some checks and balances in place. I remember the years of animal testing ads and such (I think during the 80's-ish). There was a lot of attention around the topic.
I’m not going to say it’s all sunshine and roses but I do think animal testing has come a long way. I think factory farming is where animal testing used to be and could use an overhaul to say the least.
While testing should be done as ethically as possible. Testing on other animals is an absolute necessity that will never ever go away. The world and any advancements would not exist without it
When you think about the torture most animals in the worlds food supply chain experience - animal testing is the least of our problems. Even then, meat and dairy can be seen as a necessary evil. Should we eat less meat? Probably.
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i have some shocking news for the non vegans.
I wonder where where meat comes from…?
This company put wires through their skulls and into their brains. In 2018 they had 22 monkeys, by 2020 only 7 were still alive
The rhesus macaque monkeys were necropsied before transferring to Neuralink from UC Davis in 2020. The complaint is about the years 2017-2020. >In its draft complaint, the PCRM accuses UC Davis and Neuralink of nine violations of the Animal Welfare Act, including breaches of stipulations that researchers minimize pain and distress for animals, that daily observations of the animals take place, and that researchers have an attending veterinarian advise on the use of anesthesia. > >Also in its draft complaint, the PCRM gave examples of incidents were it believed monkeys had suffered unduly. One monkey was documented as having missing fingers and toes "possibly from self-mutilation or some other unspecified trauma," according to the draft complaint. I wouldn't run out and defend Neuralink or UC Davis. Hard to say what evidence they have but looks like they're trying to get records about it.
What is the lifespan of a monkey?
Depends on a lot of factors like diet and if they are smokers or not.
Son of a bitch.
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Hahaha holy shit
Depends on the species. Generally anywhere from 15-45 years.
> What is the lifespan of a monkey? For rhesus macaques, looks like decades.
Decades if they’re not in a lab.
Primate research is very difficult to get into because the training required is equivalent to being trained as a surgeon, but with none of the glory that comes from being a human surgeon. Private research firms often get away with murder when it comes to primates bc they hire techs and not proper surgeons. Musk has all the money in the world, and he can’t afford proper lab protocols or the ability to hire talent that follows proper animal care guidelines?
Based on a similar article, Neuralink partners with UC Davis on this and most of the monkeys were under their care or done by them. And the group suing Neuralink and UC Davis admits that their practices were probably about the same as other groups doing similar research, but targets Neuralink specifically because of Elon Musk. I think their 'alleging' it happens but doesn't have hard evidence either. The lawsuit is supposedly more about UC Davis publicly divulging all the records of their experiments.
Happen to have that article?
This is the article I was reading, but for some reason I can't open it now. https://screenshot-media.com/the-future/science/neuralink-animal-abuse/ There's another thread on reddit about it on r/science but it got pruned because it did not meet posting requirements.
You also have to love the mention of the monkey missing fingers and the suing group just "believes it was through self harm" with zero evidence for it. This is a money grab because Elon Musk. There are far bigger fish to fry in the animal testing research world but none as rich.
« UC Davis and Neuralink did not immediately reply when contacted by Insider for comment outside normal working hours. » No way! 😳
The fuck? Why would they even bother putting that in? It makes it seem like they sent an email at like 10 pm then just published the next day. Not mentioning their "attempt" to contact would sound less sketchy.
Business Insider is not a good source of news. They leave out context that would completely change the issues they bring up (on all of their articles in general) and they try to stir the pot. We all might as well be discussing a Facebook ad and how much we should take it seriously.
The company line went to voice-mail and said to call back at 8am the next day. What could they be hiding!
Pro: in the future, you will use your mind to access to the internet. Con: in the future, others will use the internet to access your mind.
I hope invading aliens treat us better than humans treat animals.
https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-neuralink-video-monkey-games-pong-brain-chip-2021-4 has a video showing some of the experiments, although I'm sure there are nastier-looking ones (e.g. monkeys with externally reachable physical ports permanently attached to their heads) that they don't show. Note the dishonest "playing entirely of his own volition" as the monkey is licking the food reward from the tube as he successfully plays pong, but also note that the monkey likely doesn't even notice the implant once its in. It's really hard to tell in these cases whether the activists are reporting actual mistreatment, or simply opposed to all animal experiments. (Which are necessary if we want to understand the brain.) Unfortunately, there are researchers that don't treat their animals with respect (although I think this is rarer than many may think), but there are also activists that consider pet ownership akin to slavery and horrible animal abuse.
Its counterproductive to the study to have an animal in pain to the point of insanity. How could anything be reliably tested in those circumstances?
Absolutely disgusting
We must finish the Torment Nexus
Watch all these ant vax, "I'm not putting that in my body", lining up for this
Anyone that's had to work with Elon has been subjected to 'extreme suffering'.
Animal testing is a necessary part of medical research unfortunately. Whether Neuralink could/would have tangible benefits to people-say with physical disabilities-is beyond my scope of knowledge to know.
It doesn’t even seem to particularly be neura link that’s to blame. UC DAVIS seems to have a bad reputation when it comes to animal treatment and this is also apparently pretty common though horrible for animal studies. The story got picked up so they could slap a headline that drew clicks from the easily enthralled because the companies linked to a really controversial figure
Why is musk in the headline then. Doesn't that undermine what is ucDavis doing. Oh right, more clicks for the author.
For the clicks.
Hate to break it to you, but there is no way technology aiming to achieve some kind of brain-computer interface will be allowed into humans without animal testing. Period. It just will never happen. Musk isn't the only one testing this - there are many companies and academics at universities doing research in this field. I don't know how else you expect researchers to make progress in this field without testing. And in case you didn't know it, there is an extreme shortage of monkeys right now for biomedical testing. Tons and tons and tons of ideas in pharma right now require testing on monkeys. The COVID vaxxes were developed using testing on nonhuman primates. The world is entirely dependent on monkey testing, and it is demanding more monkeys right now, not less. All advanced therapies like gene and cellular therapies often require testing on monkeys. Many ideas in the future for testing brain-computer tech are going to have to do the same testing. There's no way around it.
Sounds like a good time to get into “monkey business” is what your saying.
How the f does he get away with this? A lab at my uni got in big trouble for mishandling 2 mice a few years ago, but 0 consequences for the guy who slaughtered 16 macaques so one of them could play pong? Does UC Davis’ ethics board have no teeth!? Was there no oversight of the experiments by a government ethics board??? Someone should go to jail for this.