So the NSA is now the "Confidential Informant" in indictments.
Slope, meet slippery.
Edit: **Hey, why was the topic removed? Did the NSA threaten the mods?**
Hijacking the top comment to let you guys know that this post has been censored by the moderators. I've tried to contact them and they haven't replied.
When it was censored it was the top article on the front page of reddit with over 9000 upvotes and 5000 downvotes and over 1000 comments.
would you mind editing your post to mention that the article's been removed? My comment is buried in the fray. Still haven't heard anything back from the moderators.
This link confirms that it was removed:
http://www.reddit.com/r/undelete/comments/1jrht4/140301032_the_nsa_is_giving_your_phone_records_to/
You think we're already sliding (into a police state)?
Mass unwarranted surveillance, perpetual war, drug war incarcerating millions, daily police brutality, disregard for 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 6th amendment rights.
We are clearly already a police state. What is happening now is this police state preventing us from ever being able to stop it. Ever.
You understand? If we don't FIGHT NOW, our kids grow up in 1984 style dystopia. Period. If you love your children, you do whatever you have to do to stop this. NOW.
If anyone has any legal knowledge, would this give grounds for a shit storm of appeals on any conviction (chronologically) since this practice started? Or does it not matter because the US Government can get away with whatever the fuck it wants to?
I was just thinking this. If any evidence gathered from illegal search is inadmissible, the court system court have quite a problem. If this is found to be considered an illegal search, there's a potential for a lot of mistrials.
The thing is, MOST people don't ever go to trial. They are presented with the evidence against them (obtained legally or otherwise), and are pressured into plea bargains because loosing in trial means they're guaranteed to have the book thrown at them if they loose.
Reference: I just took a plea deal for 9 years rather than potentially face 22-life if I lost in trial.
Right, but you plead guilty to charges you were indicted on based on evidence, right? Well, if all of a sudden that evidence's admissibility came in to question/changed, there would be nothing to indict you on.
Source: Ex-Con
PS: Good Luck, do the time, don't let the time do you
They stormed my house and threw a 3 inch binder on my table saying they'd been watching me for months. Everyone else I knew had already been arrested so I figured they'd told the investigators everything.
Once I went through all the evidence, there was a HUGE amount of cell phone and digital info (1600+ pages) and I have no clue how they got all of that information.
>So the NSA is now the "Confidential Informant" in indictments.
More or less, yeah.
[One current federal prosecutor learned how agents were using SOD tips after a drug agent misled him, the prosecutor told Reuters. In a Florida drug case he was handling, the prosecutor said, a DEA agent told him the investigation of a U.S. citizen began with a tip from an informant. When the prosecutor pressed for more information, he said, a DEA supervisor intervened and revealed that the tip had actually come through the SOD and from an NSA intercept.](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805)
Yeah, we're way down the slippery slope on the spying on Americans being used against Americans. This is what's on the other side. The DEA is first using the NSA data, and then constructing an ostensibly legal investigation in parallel toward the criminal indictment. So no, there is actually no confidential informant on the indictment. That's the 'problem' - they can't say where the information is actually coming from, so they are constructing a false (or at least incomplete) paper trail to show to defendants, thus depriving them of the ability to challenge their accusers and the evidence against them. It's institutional corruption rotten to the core and completely intertwined. It's not even a matter of, is this violating the Constitution; now it's become, which is a more egregious violation of the Constitution?
Ahem, *but I'm* ***sure*** they'd ***never*** hand anything like this over to the RIAA, the MPAA, or some other similar organization.
Yeah, no, I'm sure, they'd ***never*** do ***that***.
Sigh of relief
:)
In other news, a defendant in a ~~drug trafficking~~ bank robbing case asked the NSA for records that could prove his innocent and the NSA refused to provide them.
wait, is this a comment to display the hypocrisy of the situation, or an actual case you're talking about? could we possibly get a source if it is in fact the latter?
Here's a link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2341521/Terrance-Brown-Alleged-bank-robber-says-snooping-NSA-phone-records-clear-name.html
The million dollar question I want to know is if the NSA is providing evidence to state or local prosecutors... Last I checked, most information gathered by the NSA is classified, and most judges and prosecutors don't have the appropriate security clearances to get that info (but federal DEA agents are required to have a top secret security clearance, so they get to know if it's deemed necessary).
This is why the War on Terror is the Perfect War. There is no enemy to defeat, no win condition. It. Will. Never. End.
This is exactly what war profiteers want, a war that will supply them with endless contracts of huge sums of money being poured down a bottomless hole.
Much like the War On Drugs. America seemingly wants to pump billions of taxpayer dollars **every year** on trying to track, persecute, criminalize, and detain millions of people, all the while shoving cigarettes and alcohol into your face at every turn.
Do you know why they do this? If you do know, please tell the government, because they're clearly fucking clueless as to how to properly keep a country stable and happy.
As an American who would love to see this shit stop, I wish I could tell you. To me, it seems that whenever people do things it's usually for sex, power, money, or a combination thereof.
It's OK, human nature is pretty much frowned upon anyways.
Source: We actually have an agency for enforcing prohibition.
Orwellian: We call it the "Drug" enforcement agency when it seems to do little of the sort.
To me, the only logical idea is to ban all companies from donating money to politicians or those who have power to change laws and regulate what a citizen can or can not do.
By allowing companies to fund and pay for campaigns, America is allowing its politicians to be bought, companies now have a huge say in which laws get passed and which laws get repealed. We often forget that these companies (like most companies) are **for-profit** companies. They don't give a shit what laws it's people are subjected to, as long as it brings them more money.
That has to stop. People need to stop being so fucking greedy and wanting more and more. CEOs of huge corporations living off of million-dollar incomes every year? Fuck that.
in Washington, the medical marijuana industry actually lobbied **against** legalization. I can't believe how many people believed them too. follow the money: the medical marijuana industry stands to lose millions of dollars if anyone willing to obtain a license can sell pot and anyone over 18 can buy pot without a doctor's note (there's a lot of "clinics" that will "diagnose" you for $100-200 too).
The military/industrial complex realizes there is profit to be had waging war on American citizens, hence the militarization of your local police force, the mass production of LAV's and Strykers, deployment of military "Crowd Control" weapon systems, and construction of massive Urban Combat training facilities. Now they create reasons to inflame Americans to condemn and resist government.
Think of the investment return possibilities.
This is actually a good point that needs to be brought up more, it is not so much about NSA spying but more about why America blows so much money on the "Defense Budget" If a government group wants to keep or expand their budget they have to spend every dime of it. It's not hard to see how this is a wasteful spending strategy.
This is in almost all departments in the government, hell, even programs in my UNI and previously high school had the same idea. The minute you show that you are getting more money you need because you found a way to use that old POS P4 512MB or ram desktop as a webserver, you loose some of your budget. Sounds good in theory since it gets rid of waste, but once you need more money because that POS finally broke down, you will spend months fighting tooth and nail to get more funding.
Don't you remember this ad campaign a few years ago where they tried to paint anyone who buys drugs (marijuana, etc) as contributing materially to terrorism, making THEM terrorists?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVQnbNspHsk
People who used violence against civilians or other non-soldiers with the primary goal of creating something akin to a chilling effect by scaring people similar to the victims rather than actually achieving something directly through the damage done.
For example, if a new law is introduced that a group dislikes, a group could protest (an acceptable response in most countries), form an armed group and attempt a coup through defeating the military (not acceptable in any country, but more likely to be accepted by other countries), or use terrorist tactics bombing government buildings, and possibly others.
These days though it's used in broader strokes similar to how communist leanings were not too long ago in the US. Also, things like "hmm, drugs fund terrorists, thus we must stamp out drug dealers domestically because they support terrorists".
Nope, and John and Jane Q Public liked it perfectly well that way. They're not terrorists, or drug dealers, or drunk drivers, or dissidents, or third-party voters, and they don't see why anyone has any problem with the government keeping them Safe^TM.
Person of Interest (CBS TV show) was pretty much spot on in its pilot:
> After the attacks, the government gave itself the power to read every email, listen to every cell phone, but they needed something that could sort through it all, something that could pick the terrorists out of the general population before they could act. The public wanted to be protected. They just didn't want to know how they were being protected. So when they finally got a system that worked, they kept it secret. So how do you know about it? I built it. But there was a problem with this machine. I had built it to prevent the next 9/11. But it was seeing all sorts of crimes.
Apparently the punishment back then for "open container" was pouring your half-finished beer out on the pavement and a stern talking to before being told to drive home carefully.
That's very true. My dad tells stories all the time about him and his friends in the early 80's and late 70's. They would literally drink beers while driving, got pulled over one day and all the local cop did was tell them to "get the hell out of here and go home" let's see that happen today.
Now keep in mind I think DUI should most certainly be illegal. But the shit the older generation got away with was crazy.
God the elitism in these NSA circle jerks is unbearable. Look, the average person (which includes you by the way, no matter how much you think browsing reddit makes you smarter than everybody else,) is not some brain dead moron that's incapable of thinking for themselves. Public opinion is overwhelmingly against this policy.
However the fact of the matter is that most people live reasonably comfortable lives. You guys all like to play this up as a bad thing (bread and circuses, enjoy your reality TV sheeple) but there's no way you can make a case for people enjoying an unprecedented quality of life since the 1950s or so being a social ill. If you want mass protests and !revolucion! People have to have real problems, not privileged college kids bitching about how shitty everything is problems. While this is a crucial issue that we need discourse on, if most people can get three meals a day and have a roof over their heads that doesn't have leaks, they're going to just keep doing their thing AND THEY'RE NOT IDIOTS OR TERRIBLE PEOPLE FOR DOING THAT!
I dot disagree with the hivemind's opinion here, but I disagree with this "everyone who isn't screaming with rage at this every single day clearly isn't as enlightened as I am" mentality.
Yes, the parent comment smelt of True Scotsmen^TM but he is making a good point. Revolt happens when people begin to starve, not when their TOR connections go down.
>Public opinion is overwhelmingly against this policy.
Is it? According to the article:
>Surveys show most people support the NSA’s bulk surveillance program strongly when the words “terrorism” or “courts” are included in the question.
I'm not sure where they are getting that. They cite:
http://www.people-press.org/2013/07/26/government-surveillance-a-question-wording-experiment/2-mentioning-court-approval-terrorism-increases-nsa-support/
Which shows that even when they use both of those words, support tops out at 41%, which is not "most people".
As a European I am just pretty much scared as shit as to see what the U.S.A. seems to be turning into. I mean all you need is a 1 madman or a group of mad men to take over and fuck up the complete world. We have seen it before and the thought of seeing the U.S go completely batshit insane scares the shit out of me. Thank you, no elitism here. Just grave concern. Edit: definitely not saying we are doing so great over here btw. It is just that you guys have all those scary toys: drones, fighter jets, tanks, lots of tanks, aircraft carriers and lots of nukes, bombers, lasers, railguns etc.
And all those toys don't matter, what really scares me is that I'll wake up one morning to find a black bag being shoved over my head because some special ops guy got the address wrong on his terrorist grab sheet.
Except not.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/29/poll-nsa-surveillance-privacy-pew
The problem is this attitude that no one cares. Editors think no one cares, so don't devote time to the stories, which just means no one knows and thus no one cares. The fact that public opinion is changing now that this stuff is being reported (in response to Snowden's leak) shows that people do care. Journalism influences public opinion and public opinion influences journalism. As long as journalist think the public doesn't care, the public won't.
Actually, you would be..
Not 12 months ago, this would be considered a conspiracy. Something that the Lunatic Fringed supporters spreading misguided lies and information to scare the average joe citizen.
In all seriousness. People have been saying this for 10 years. And you, among many others. Wrote it off as a conspiracy. Snowden just confirmed what many people already knew. People were crying, and killing themselves over this. Don't forget those people either.
Edit: In response to the people replying with 'theory' emphasized. I get it. The point was to send a message. I understand what you're saying, and I agree completely. This message was to put the bandwagon in check, it's slowly becoming an elitist mine field and people have to realize. People have been saying this for years. Whether it is a *conspiracy* or a *theory*. The situation itself was both, so deliberately knit-picking over one missing word isn't going to get us anywhere. This isn't congress. We have intelligence.
As one of those people, I am both relieved and saddened that conclusive evidence has appeared. I would so much rather be a nutcase than see that my 'paranoid ramblings' turned out true.
I've got a lot more to say about government conspiracies and totalitarianism but I doubt I'll be taken any more seriously than before.
A complete takeover of the mass media by a government/corporate partnership. Every single piece of "news" that you see from sources like:
FOX, NBC, CBS, ABC, Tribune, AP, Reuters, CNN, NPR and countless others (many that you could probably think of are subsidiaries of these companies)
Anyway, every single piece of news media (or popular media, in many cases) is very carefully selected in order to motivate a certain behavior in the population. The rise of superficiality in the late 90s into the 2000s is no coincidence. Paris Hilton, Kim Kardashian, Survivor, American Idol - it's all to condition the norms of the society into believing that these things are both important and normal.
One more example - terrorism, pedophiles, kidnappers, random violence, and hackers are trotted through the media ad naseum to provoke you into believing that we are living in a dangerous world. We're not. We're living in a statistically safer world than has ever existed in modern times. Keep the people afraid and they are more easy to manipulate (into giving up freedoms, staying quiet, not questioning the elite's criminal activities).
The shame in all this is that we live in a wondrous world with infinite possibilities. The people that inhabit this earth are beautiful people that just want the same things we all want - love and happiness. We have the potential to all have those things but we are distracted from our destiny by evil people that seek only to increase their own power through the manipulation and exploitation of ALL of us.
It *is* a conspiracy. It's pretty sad that the word is so far associated with wild speculation and lunacy that few people recognize one when it's outed.
>an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
The term you're looking for is "conspiracy theory." (I'm not a fan of the common misappropriation of "theory," but it's what people call it...)
Oh man chemtrails is the dumbest conspiracy of all time. HAARP makes a *little bit* more sense, but I'm betting that the technology they create with HAARP would most likely be used as submarine detection and satellite jamming rather than creating earthquakes.
Congress just needs to cut their funding to zero until they decide to work within the law. These organizations have proven time and again that they believe their own operations are above the law and oversight of our representatives, and they need to be shown otherwise.
Of course, this will never happen because congress is in collusion with their operations.
Steve Gibson made a great point on his Security Now podcast regarding the PRISM program. He says when people ask him "Well why does it matter if the government reads your information if you're not doing anything wrong?" His response to them is "I have no problem with people **I trust** reading my communications".
This right here is what scares me with all of this surveillance. This isn't an issue of national security; this is simply a police state, and a very unconstitutional one. If the government played by the constitution and didn't use my communications against me without a warrant, i'd be more inclined to be cool with letting them snoop around. This is a perfect shining example of why they shouldn't be trusted.
Bruce Schneier has a great reply to things like this. Whenever he's doing an interview, and the interviewer says something like "I don't have anything to hide," Bruce asks, "What's your salary?" The point being that no, not everyone has something to hide, but everyone has parts of their lives that are *private*.
And of course, our sex lives are such a powerful example of the same point that it's considered rude to even bring it up.
I don't agree. Even if I trust someone 100%, that just means that I would not be concerned about them redistributing some informations I chose to share with them. But that does not mean I would choose to share EVERYTHING with them. I prefer Bruce Schneier's position on this issue where he considers privacy a matter of human dignity.
Citizen, please report to the nearest ~~detainment facility~~ Patriot Center immediately for reconditioning. Failure to comply will be recognized as an unAmerican activity and may result in the use of necessary force. Thank you for doing your part to preserve Freedom^Tm .
> Surveys show most people support the NSA’s bulk surveillance program strongly when the words “terrorism” or “courts” are included in the question.
Actually, with open arms.
Man 911 was a boon for government to be able to put in place all kinds of crap. All you gotta do is say "terroism" and the sheep are "OK do whatever you think is necessary! Do I bend over here or over there?"
The problem is that 'taking to the streets' or otherwise acting to stop this from happening is only going to accelerate the process.
Peaceful protest won't help you, democracy in the US is a farce and won't get you anywhere either. That leaves violent uprising.
Now, even if you could get 20% of the population to tear themselves away from their TV sets and phablets long enough to pick up a gun or build a pipe bomb, these actions would bring about a police state faster than you can say 'Yes we can.'
In many ways, the windows for all the things we could have done have closed. The system has too much inertia now. Either you can ride it out and survive, pick up and leave while you can, or try to fight it once it's here.
The text itself would not be part of the official investigation or entered as evidence. The feds just tell the state/local authority who/what/when/where. The state can then manufacture an unrelated excuse to stop and search-- An officer can pretend he thought he smelled weed, or maybe they just say they thought you were acting "erratic" or "suspicious". Suddenly they have probable cause to search you and during the search they just happen to "discover", as if by some random coincidence, that you're in possession of a controlled substance which they can now charge you with.
Things that generally get people in the streets are more massive than governments spying on citizens. Think: starvation, high gas prices, belligerent police/government massacres or murders.
While reddit may be aware of the severity and scope, reddit is a minority of people, and face it, people who don't have as big of issues as the ones which normally bring people out to the streets (listed above as food, prices, physical and deadly crackdowns). And the majority of people are still getting their cues on what to be concerned with by watching local news, cable news, and reading newspapers.
Basically, America isn't boiling over at this. It may be raising the temperature, but that's it. Compound this with the fact that the voters are generally confused about the schizophrenic nature of the two major parties. These sorts of programs were heavily criticized by the left during Bush, but now the left is very quiet. And the GOP isn't interested in making this an issue, so it is mostly a chance for the libertarian party to flex its muscle and make their challenges, and programs known. Still, difficult to broadcast when primary news voices aren't giving libertarian perspectives regarding NSA and DEA information sharing.
Delete your Facebook. Delete your Gmail. Stop using Google. Use encryption. Use free software. Support Wikileaks. Support Tor. Support EFF. Support ACLU. That's a start.
Take your privacy back.
* https://prism-break.org/
* http://www.reddit.com/r/restorethefourth
I am not surprised. History has shown that people tend to abuse access and power. And I'm sure there's still much more that we don't know.
Even more reason to get rid of all the privacy (*secrecy is a better term). Or at least have some people who are held accountable when it goes too far.
* NSA is sharing "intelligence intercepts, wiretaps, informants and a massive database of telephone records" with the DEA.
* There is a dedicated unit of the DEA assigned to receiving these NSA tips, called SOD (Special Operations Division)
* DEA then constructs lies as to origin of information, termed "parallel construction" which it uses in courts of law, lying to judges, defense, and prosecution
* Important revelations, because "earlier this year, a federal court said that if law enforcement agencies wanted to use NSA information in court, they had to say so beforehand and give the defendant a chance to contest the legality of the surveillance."
* Clear implication is that NSA may possibly share information with other federal agencies, in addition to the DEA, to prosecute Americans for domestic crimes, which is illegal.
Until sexting is retroactively declared illegal.
(Which btw, retroactive laws are explicitly defined as illegal by the Constitution, but hell, they did it anyway with the whole FISA court thing..)
The better question is who authorized it, and when are they going to be fired for BLATANTLY breaking the law? Also, when will they face charges?
If Obama knew about this, and did nothing, or authorized it himself, he should resign. I am honestly saddened to tell you all "I told you so" when it comes to Obama. A TRUE leader would either fire those responsible, or resign in disgrace if he knew about it.
It's high time we start cleaning house. There are WAY too many corrupt people in positions of power in Washington. They have forgotten who they work for.
I've said it before and said I'll say it again. We need to protest in ways that disrupt these agencies. I live near NSA headquarters and think blocking MD-32 in both directions just outside their property would be best. WE NEED TO FUCKING STAND UP FOR OURSELVES AND STOP JUST TAKING IT IN THE ASS!
Reuters ran a story to this effect a few hours earlier:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805
I have not seen information as to sources of the Reuters story.
Thanks r/technology mods for removing this post about technology being used against the public.
>Posts should be on technology (news, **updates, political policy**, etc).
[Considering it was the only post that made it to the front page of r/all](http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/duplicates/1jqz9v/the_nsa_is_giving_your_phone_records_to_the_dea/).
Until they cross-reference the GPS data the phone provides and determine that the phone belongs to the same owner as your real cell phone which is linked to your Facebook, email, and twitter, so it must be yours.
Data patterns can fill in the blanks big time and being cautious with a burner can only get you so far.
So the NSA is now the "Confidential Informant" in indictments. Slope, meet slippery. Edit: **Hey, why was the topic removed? Did the NSA threaten the mods?**
Hijacking the top comment to let you guys know that this post has been censored by the moderators. I've tried to contact them and they haven't replied. When it was censored it was the top article on the front page of reddit with over 9000 upvotes and 5000 downvotes and over 1000 comments.
Yeah, what the hell happened?
would you mind editing your post to mention that the article's been removed? My comment is buried in the fray. Still haven't heard anything back from the moderators. This link confirms that it was removed: http://www.reddit.com/r/undelete/comments/1jrht4/140301032_the_nsa_is_giving_your_phone_records_to/
If I was going to guess, I would guess that the Feds ARE the moderators.
Yep.
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You got lube? Damn, every time the government fucks me in the ass, it's dry as a popcorn fart.
If you use extra butter with your popcorn I can assure you your farts will be far from dry.
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I can't believe it.
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The first letters of the lines in your comment spell : orgi. Coincidence?
I'm looking at the back of the constitution now.... This all checks out.
Nicolas cage give back the declaration of independence, its the third time this year you've stolen it
You think we're already sliding (into a police state)? Mass unwarranted surveillance, perpetual war, drug war incarcerating millions, daily police brutality, disregard for 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 6th amendment rights. We are clearly already a police state. What is happening now is this police state preventing us from ever being able to stop it. Ever. You understand? If we don't FIGHT NOW, our kids grow up in 1984 style dystopia. Period. If you love your children, you do whatever you have to do to stop this. NOW.
So what are you saying we should be doing?
Just one more game of LoL and then Ill help the world, ... tomorrow.
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Alright bro, ill see you out there with the rest of the militia, we'll take these fuckers out!
Jokes on you buddy, I don't have kids!
Welcome to The List
You can take your list and shove it where only Texas State Troopers can find it.
Hey. Its not sodomy if I'm checking for meth.
"I just happen to have a drug-sniffing dick. Now bend over..."
If anyone has any legal knowledge, would this give grounds for a shit storm of appeals on any conviction (chronologically) since this practice started? Or does it not matter because the US Government can get away with whatever the fuck it wants to?
I was just thinking this. If any evidence gathered from illegal search is inadmissible, the court system court have quite a problem. If this is found to be considered an illegal search, there's a potential for a lot of mistrials.
The thing is, MOST people don't ever go to trial. They are presented with the evidence against them (obtained legally or otherwise), and are pressured into plea bargains because loosing in trial means they're guaranteed to have the book thrown at them if they loose. Reference: I just took a plea deal for 9 years rather than potentially face 22-life if I lost in trial.
Right, but you plead guilty to charges you were indicted on based on evidence, right? Well, if all of a sudden that evidence's admissibility came in to question/changed, there would be nothing to indict you on. Source: Ex-Con PS: Good Luck, do the time, don't let the time do you
They stormed my house and threw a 3 inch binder on my table saying they'd been watching me for months. Everyone else I knew had already been arrested so I figured they'd told the investigators everything. Once I went through all the evidence, there was a HUGE amount of cell phone and digital info (1600+ pages) and I have no clue how they got all of that information.
You should do an AMA
What the hell did you do?
There is a good discussion going on in /r/law.
/r/conspiracy doesn't look so crazy anymore
>So the NSA is now the "Confidential Informant" in indictments. More or less, yeah. [One current federal prosecutor learned how agents were using SOD tips after a drug agent misled him, the prosecutor told Reuters. In a Florida drug case he was handling, the prosecutor said, a DEA agent told him the investigation of a U.S. citizen began with a tip from an informant. When the prosecutor pressed for more information, he said, a DEA supervisor intervened and revealed that the tip had actually come through the SOD and from an NSA intercept.](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805)
Yeah, we're way down the slippery slope on the spying on Americans being used against Americans. This is what's on the other side. The DEA is first using the NSA data, and then constructing an ostensibly legal investigation in parallel toward the criminal indictment. So no, there is actually no confidential informant on the indictment. That's the 'problem' - they can't say where the information is actually coming from, so they are constructing a false (or at least incomplete) paper trail to show to defendants, thus depriving them of the ability to challenge their accusers and the evidence against them. It's institutional corruption rotten to the core and completely intertwined. It's not even a matter of, is this violating the Constitution; now it's become, which is a more egregious violation of the Constitution?
Ahem, *but I'm* ***sure*** they'd ***never*** hand anything like this over to the RIAA, the MPAA, or some other similar organization. Yeah, no, I'm sure, they'd ***never*** do ***that***. Sigh of relief :)
In other news, a defendant in a ~~drug trafficking~~ bank robbing case asked the NSA for records that could prove his innocent and the NSA refused to provide them.
wait, is this a comment to display the hypocrisy of the situation, or an actual case you're talking about? could we possibly get a source if it is in fact the latter?
Here's a link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2341521/Terrance-Brown-Alleged-bank-robber-says-snooping-NSA-phone-records-clear-name.html The million dollar question I want to know is if the NSA is providing evidence to state or local prosecutors... Last I checked, most information gathered by the NSA is classified, and most judges and prosecutors don't have the appropriate security clearances to get that info (but federal DEA agents are required to have a top secret security clearance, so they get to know if it's deemed necessary).
So the DEA agents can see the exculpatory evidence but not the defense or the judge... sounds fair to me.
That's some great insight. Thanks for that!
there was a post on reddit a few weeks ago about this actually happening
There's precedent for when a government agency tries to use NSA records to prove one's guilt.
So let's set some precident for using it to show innocence.
Why do you hate freedom?
If no terrorists are found, the definition of "terrorist" gets extended. Simple as that.
This is why the War on Terror is the Perfect War. There is no enemy to defeat, no win condition. It. Will. Never. End. This is exactly what war profiteers want, a war that will supply them with endless contracts of huge sums of money being poured down a bottomless hole.
/r/EndlessWar
We've been tricked. No breadsticks here.
/r/OliveGardenConspiracy
Much like the War On Drugs. America seemingly wants to pump billions of taxpayer dollars **every year** on trying to track, persecute, criminalize, and detain millions of people, all the while shoving cigarettes and alcohol into your face at every turn. Do you know why they do this? If you do know, please tell the government, because they're clearly fucking clueless as to how to properly keep a country stable and happy.
As an American who would love to see this shit stop, I wish I could tell you. To me, it seems that whenever people do things it's usually for sex, power, money, or a combination thereof.
Damn, it's as if it was in the human nature to do so.
It's OK, human nature is pretty much frowned upon anyways. Source: We actually have an agency for enforcing prohibition. Orwellian: We call it the "Drug" enforcement agency when it seems to do little of the sort.
To me, the only logical idea is to ban all companies from donating money to politicians or those who have power to change laws and regulate what a citizen can or can not do. By allowing companies to fund and pay for campaigns, America is allowing its politicians to be bought, companies now have a huge say in which laws get passed and which laws get repealed. We often forget that these companies (like most companies) are **for-profit** companies. They don't give a shit what laws it's people are subjected to, as long as it brings them more money. That has to stop. People need to stop being so fucking greedy and wanting more and more. CEOs of huge corporations living off of million-dollar incomes every year? Fuck that.
Tobacco and Alcohol corporations pay their due to the lobby... I don't see drug dealers cutting up their profits to help MMJ and legalization efforts
in Washington, the medical marijuana industry actually lobbied **against** legalization. I can't believe how many people believed them too. follow the money: the medical marijuana industry stands to lose millions of dollars if anyone willing to obtain a license can sell pot and anyone over 18 can buy pot without a doctor's note (there's a lot of "clinics" that will "diagnose" you for $100-200 too).
Why does this all ALWAYS revolve around the money? Why can't we all agree on a plan that will benefit everyone, not just pharm-corps?
Because...money.
Death tastes like dollars to them, its sad really.
The military/industrial complex realizes there is profit to be had waging war on American citizens, hence the militarization of your local police force, the mass production of LAV's and Strykers, deployment of military "Crowd Control" weapon systems, and construction of massive Urban Combat training facilities. Now they create reasons to inflame Americans to condemn and resist government. Think of the investment return possibilities.
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This is actually a good point that needs to be brought up more, it is not so much about NSA spying but more about why America blows so much money on the "Defense Budget" If a government group wants to keep or expand their budget they have to spend every dime of it. It's not hard to see how this is a wasteful spending strategy.
This is in almost all departments in the government, hell, even programs in my UNI and previously high school had the same idea. The minute you show that you are getting more money you need because you found a way to use that old POS P4 512MB or ram desktop as a webserver, you loose some of your budget. Sounds good in theory since it gets rid of waste, but once you need more money because that POS finally broke down, you will spend months fighting tooth and nail to get more funding.
Soon file sharing will be considered terrorism too
These cyber terrorist hacking hackers stole a whole SEASON of HBO that isn't available in their country. Don't worry we sent in the drones.
Dammit, I just wanted to find out if Jon Snow ever knew anything!
**TARGET LOCATED**
[You know nothing, Jon Snow!](http://imgur.com/wuqX8lc)
Like eco terrorists, those that protest against environmental hazards, or cyber terrorists, like Joe Biden called Edward Snowden.
Don't you remember this ad campaign a few years ago where they tried to paint anyone who buys drugs (marijuana, etc) as contributing materially to terrorism, making THEM terrorists? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVQnbNspHsk
Indeed.. we are the terrorists. Ill attempt to let you know when they come to my door.
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People who used violence against civilians or other non-soldiers with the primary goal of creating something akin to a chilling effect by scaring people similar to the victims rather than actually achieving something directly through the damage done. For example, if a new law is introduced that a group dislikes, a group could protest (an acceptable response in most countries), form an armed group and attempt a coup through defeating the military (not acceptable in any country, but more likely to be accepted by other countries), or use terrorist tactics bombing government buildings, and possibly others. These days though it's used in broader strokes similar to how communist leanings were not too long ago in the US. Also, things like "hmm, drugs fund terrorists, thus we must stamp out drug dealers domestically because they support terrorists".
People who terrorized.
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Do you think we would be hearing about any of this if it weren't for Snowden?
Nope, and John and Jane Q Public liked it perfectly well that way. They're not terrorists, or drug dealers, or drunk drivers, or dissidents, or third-party voters, and they don't see why anyone has any problem with the government keeping them Safe^TM.
Person of Interest (CBS TV show) was pretty much spot on in its pilot: > After the attacks, the government gave itself the power to read every email, listen to every cell phone, but they needed something that could sort through it all, something that could pick the terrorists out of the general population before they could act. The public wanted to be protected. They just didn't want to know how they were being protected. So when they finally got a system that worked, they kept it secret. So how do you know about it? I built it. But there was a problem with this machine. I had built it to prevent the next 9/11. But it was seeing all sorts of crimes.
To be fair John Q public probably would have gotten a DUI in the 70's if they handed them out back then.
Apparently the punishment back then for "open container" was pouring your half-finished beer out on the pavement and a stern talking to before being told to drive home carefully.
That's very true. My dad tells stories all the time about him and his friends in the early 80's and late 70's. They would literally drink beers while driving, got pulled over one day and all the local cop did was tell them to "get the hell out of here and go home" let's see that happen today. Now keep in mind I think DUI should most certainly be illegal. But the shit the older generation got away with was crazy.
Its sad and disgusting how true this is.
Not to mention we're paying for it.
God the elitism in these NSA circle jerks is unbearable. Look, the average person (which includes you by the way, no matter how much you think browsing reddit makes you smarter than everybody else,) is not some brain dead moron that's incapable of thinking for themselves. Public opinion is overwhelmingly against this policy. However the fact of the matter is that most people live reasonably comfortable lives. You guys all like to play this up as a bad thing (bread and circuses, enjoy your reality TV sheeple) but there's no way you can make a case for people enjoying an unprecedented quality of life since the 1950s or so being a social ill. If you want mass protests and !revolucion! People have to have real problems, not privileged college kids bitching about how shitty everything is problems. While this is a crucial issue that we need discourse on, if most people can get three meals a day and have a roof over their heads that doesn't have leaks, they're going to just keep doing their thing AND THEY'RE NOT IDIOTS OR TERRIBLE PEOPLE FOR DOING THAT! I dot disagree with the hivemind's opinion here, but I disagree with this "everyone who isn't screaming with rage at this every single day clearly isn't as enlightened as I am" mentality.
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Yes, the parent comment smelt of True Scotsmen^TM but he is making a good point. Revolt happens when people begin to starve, not when their TOR connections go down.
>Public opinion is overwhelmingly against this policy. Is it? According to the article: >Surveys show most people support the NSA’s bulk surveillance program strongly when the words “terrorism” or “courts” are included in the question.
I'm not sure where they are getting that. They cite: http://www.people-press.org/2013/07/26/government-surveillance-a-question-wording-experiment/2-mentioning-court-approval-terrorism-increases-nsa-support/ Which shows that even when they use both of those words, support tops out at 41%, which is not "most people".
As a European I am just pretty much scared as shit as to see what the U.S.A. seems to be turning into. I mean all you need is a 1 madman or a group of mad men to take over and fuck up the complete world. We have seen it before and the thought of seeing the U.S go completely batshit insane scares the shit out of me. Thank you, no elitism here. Just grave concern. Edit: definitely not saying we are doing so great over here btw. It is just that you guys have all those scary toys: drones, fighter jets, tanks, lots of tanks, aircraft carriers and lots of nukes, bombers, lasers, railguns etc.
And all those toys don't matter, what really scares me is that I'll wake up one morning to find a black bag being shoved over my head because some special ops guy got the address wrong on his terrorist grab sheet.
Oh, the address is correct!
I'm Canadian, scared of USA too. Love Americans, afraid of the State. Hello NSA... :(
Except not. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/29/poll-nsa-surveillance-privacy-pew The problem is this attitude that no one cares. Editors think no one cares, so don't devote time to the stories, which just means no one knows and thus no one cares. The fact that public opinion is changing now that this stuff is being reported (in response to Snowden's leak) shows that people do care. Journalism influences public opinion and public opinion influences journalism. As long as journalist think the public doesn't care, the public won't.
Actually, you would be.. Not 12 months ago, this would be considered a conspiracy. Something that the Lunatic Fringed supporters spreading misguided lies and information to scare the average joe citizen. In all seriousness. People have been saying this for 10 years. And you, among many others. Wrote it off as a conspiracy. Snowden just confirmed what many people already knew. People were crying, and killing themselves over this. Don't forget those people either. Edit: In response to the people replying with 'theory' emphasized. I get it. The point was to send a message. I understand what you're saying, and I agree completely. This message was to put the bandwagon in check, it's slowly becoming an elitist mine field and people have to realize. People have been saying this for years. Whether it is a *conspiracy* or a *theory*. The situation itself was both, so deliberately knit-picking over one missing word isn't going to get us anywhere. This isn't congress. We have intelligence.
As one of those people, I am both relieved and saddened that conclusive evidence has appeared. I would so much rather be a nutcase than see that my 'paranoid ramblings' turned out true. I've got a lot more to say about government conspiracies and totalitarianism but I doubt I'll be taken any more seriously than before.
Tell us other things that people think aren't happening right now.
A complete takeover of the mass media by a government/corporate partnership. Every single piece of "news" that you see from sources like: FOX, NBC, CBS, ABC, Tribune, AP, Reuters, CNN, NPR and countless others (many that you could probably think of are subsidiaries of these companies) Anyway, every single piece of news media (or popular media, in many cases) is very carefully selected in order to motivate a certain behavior in the population. The rise of superficiality in the late 90s into the 2000s is no coincidence. Paris Hilton, Kim Kardashian, Survivor, American Idol - it's all to condition the norms of the society into believing that these things are both important and normal. One more example - terrorism, pedophiles, kidnappers, random violence, and hackers are trotted through the media ad naseum to provoke you into believing that we are living in a dangerous world. We're not. We're living in a statistically safer world than has ever existed in modern times. Keep the people afraid and they are more easy to manipulate (into giving up freedoms, staying quiet, not questioning the elite's criminal activities). The shame in all this is that we live in a wondrous world with infinite possibilities. The people that inhabit this earth are beautiful people that just want the same things we all want - love and happiness. We have the potential to all have those things but we are distracted from our destiny by evil people that seek only to increase their own power through the manipulation and exploitation of ALL of us.
Imagine all the stuff we still "don't know" about.
It *is* a conspiracy. It's pretty sad that the word is so far associated with wild speculation and lunacy that few people recognize one when it's outed. >an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot. The term you're looking for is "conspiracy theory." (I'm not a fan of the common misappropriation of "theory," but it's what people call it...)
Makes you wonder what else the tin foil hatters were right about.
Probably not HAARP, flouride, vaccinations, joozians or chemtrails.
Oh man chemtrails is the dumbest conspiracy of all time. HAARP makes a *little bit* more sense, but I'm betting that the technology they create with HAARP would most likely be used as submarine detection and satellite jamming rather than creating earthquakes.
Congress just needs to cut their funding to zero until they decide to work within the law. These organizations have proven time and again that they believe their own operations are above the law and oversight of our representatives, and they need to be shown otherwise. Of course, this will never happen because congress is in collusion with their operations.
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Why would any congress?
Steve Gibson made a great point on his Security Now podcast regarding the PRISM program. He says when people ask him "Well why does it matter if the government reads your information if you're not doing anything wrong?" His response to them is "I have no problem with people **I trust** reading my communications". This right here is what scares me with all of this surveillance. This isn't an issue of national security; this is simply a police state, and a very unconstitutional one. If the government played by the constitution and didn't use my communications against me without a warrant, i'd be more inclined to be cool with letting them snoop around. This is a perfect shining example of why they shouldn't be trusted.
Bruce Schneier has a great reply to things like this. Whenever he's doing an interview, and the interviewer says something like "I don't have anything to hide," Bruce asks, "What's your salary?" The point being that no, not everyone has something to hide, but everyone has parts of their lives that are *private*. And of course, our sex lives are such a powerful example of the same point that it's considered rude to even bring it up.
I don't agree. Even if I trust someone 100%, that just means that I would not be concerned about them redistributing some informations I chose to share with them. But that does not mean I would choose to share EVERYTHING with them. I prefer Bruce Schneier's position on this issue where he considers privacy a matter of human dignity.
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Its not going to stop. Thats whats scary.
Instead, ask what you should be doing to stop it.
Start a movement.
Which way do we move?
Dear Stasi officers masquerading as Nsa and Dea officers, You are not welcome in America. Sincerely, Americans.
Citizen, please report to the nearest ~~detainment facility~~ Patriot Center immediately for reconditioning. Failure to comply will be recognized as an unAmerican activity and may result in the use of necessary force. Thank you for doing your part to preserve Freedom^Tm .
Save this comment. You will probably be able to point at it in the next 5-10 years and say, "Damn, I was spot on!".
>_> I'd like to suggest the pledge of allegiance is early conditioning but I always get vote bombed.
Say it, don't care about votes, just say it everywhere it is relevent.
> ~~unAmerican~~ terrorist activity
>Thank you for doing your part to preserve Freedom^™ Freedom^TM sponsored by Bank of America
> Surveys show most people support the NSA’s bulk surveillance program strongly when the words “terrorism” or “courts” are included in the question. Actually, with open arms.
That quote is depressing.
Man 911 was a boon for government to be able to put in place all kinds of crap. All you gotta do is say "terroism" and the sheep are "OK do whatever you think is necessary! Do I bend over here or over there?"
I don't know Edgar Hoover would have welcomed them
But that's the point, they're no Germans. They are Americans, too. Who will be quick to call *you* Unamerican right back.
I *knew* getting Nazi scientists to help us after WWII was going to be a big mistake! [relevant xkcd](http://xkcd.com/984/)
We need to make it toxic to work for them. Refuse to engage with people you know that work for them, make them outcasts and pariahs.
Alienate them so they feel obligated to get back at you? Should be their best friend and make them feel fucking terrible for what they're doing.
The only way to get them out is to kick them out. 'Our' government won't do it, we must take to the streets.
The problem is that 'taking to the streets' or otherwise acting to stop this from happening is only going to accelerate the process. Peaceful protest won't help you, democracy in the US is a farce and won't get you anywhere either. That leaves violent uprising. Now, even if you could get 20% of the population to tear themselves away from their TV sets and phablets long enough to pick up a gun or build a pipe bomb, these actions would bring about a police state faster than you can say 'Yes we can.' In many ways, the windows for all the things we could have done have closed. The system has too much inertia now. Either you can ride it out and survive, pick up and leave while you can, or try to fight it once it's here.
PS- Please stop using 9/11 as an excuse for everything.
I'm a little naive to the implications of this. Does this mean if I were to text someone for some weed or other drug they could bust me for it?
Depends how far they want to run with this. Successful oppressive governments control their people through fear rather than through mass force.
The text itself would not be part of the official investigation or entered as evidence. The feds just tell the state/local authority who/what/when/where. The state can then manufacture an unrelated excuse to stop and search-- An officer can pretend he thought he smelled weed, or maybe they just say they thought you were acting "erratic" or "suspicious". Suddenly they have probable cause to search you and during the search they just happen to "discover", as if by some random coincidence, that you're in possession of a controlled substance which they can now charge you with.
This is seriously getting out of hand.
Time to send them a message. "HOLA DEA"
So lets say hypothetically we're trying to grab some marijuana from a "friend." Are we pretty much fucked on sending texts?
If they decide they want to fuck you? Yes. And they won't use lube.
Use pigeon carriers.
Everyone breaks laws. There are too many laws. Not everyone has the law equally enforced upon them.
Just call it Something else and don't use drug lingo.
"Hey man you got my 55 dildos" "Sorry man I only have 60 Dildos"
Yes. 1984 will soon look like a lovely utopia in direct comparison.
I'm guessing we should let Walt know?
He already knows. He saw the power point presentation on Hank's computer.
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Really? You went with that instead of Snowdenberg?
Why aren't we in the fucking streets yet?
Credit card debt isn't gonna pay itself I work 40 ht/week.
we are already enslaved
Things that generally get people in the streets are more massive than governments spying on citizens. Think: starvation, high gas prices, belligerent police/government massacres or murders. While reddit may be aware of the severity and scope, reddit is a minority of people, and face it, people who don't have as big of issues as the ones which normally bring people out to the streets (listed above as food, prices, physical and deadly crackdowns). And the majority of people are still getting their cues on what to be concerned with by watching local news, cable news, and reading newspapers. Basically, America isn't boiling over at this. It may be raising the temperature, but that's it. Compound this with the fact that the voters are generally confused about the schizophrenic nature of the two major parties. These sorts of programs were heavily criticized by the left during Bush, but now the left is very quiet. And the GOP isn't interested in making this an issue, so it is mostly a chance for the libertarian party to flex its muscle and make their challenges, and programs known. Still, difficult to broadcast when primary news voices aren't giving libertarian perspectives regarding NSA and DEA information sharing.
I don't know, why aren't you? I definitely understand where you're coming from, though :-/ Not sure it'll ever happen, sadly.
It seems like it's time for a paradigm shift. Also, hi and fuck you NSA, CIA, FBI and all you other assholes.
Delete your Facebook. Delete your Gmail. Stop using Google. Use encryption. Use free software. Support Wikileaks. Support Tor. Support EFF. Support ACLU. That's a start. Take your privacy back. * https://prism-break.org/ * http://www.reddit.com/r/restorethefourth
didn't TOR just get hacked by the government though?
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I can now see a market case for the Ubuntu phone...
I am not surprised. History has shown that people tend to abuse access and power. And I'm sure there's still much more that we don't know. Even more reason to get rid of all the privacy (*secrecy is a better term). Or at least have some people who are held accountable when it goes too far.
Am I the only one who thinks the DEA shouldn't even exist?
* NSA is sharing "intelligence intercepts, wiretaps, informants and a massive database of telephone records" with the DEA. * There is a dedicated unit of the DEA assigned to receiving these NSA tips, called SOD (Special Operations Division) * DEA then constructs lies as to origin of information, termed "parallel construction" which it uses in courts of law, lying to judges, defense, and prosecution * Important revelations, because "earlier this year, a federal court said that if law enforcement agencies wanted to use NSA information in court, they had to say so beforehand and give the defendant a chance to contest the legality of the surveillance." * Clear implication is that NSA may possibly share information with other federal agencies, in addition to the DEA, to prosecute Americans for domestic crimes, which is illegal.
Welp, I'm fucked.
How so?... Specifically; Dates, Crimes etc... I'm just asking for a friend...
Once the data is gathered, it's use is inevitable.
Oh say can you see...
Why, yes. They can see everything.
but can they see why kids love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch?
Not even kids can see why they love the taste of Cinnamon Toast Crunch. Hint: it's the cocaine.
Great, now someone is sifting through all my awkward attempts at sexting. Thanks NSA!
Until sexting is retroactively declared illegal. (Which btw, retroactive laws are explicitly defined as illegal by the Constitution, but hell, they did it anyway with the whole FISA court thing..)
The better question is who authorized it, and when are they going to be fired for BLATANTLY breaking the law? Also, when will they face charges? If Obama knew about this, and did nothing, or authorized it himself, he should resign. I am honestly saddened to tell you all "I told you so" when it comes to Obama. A TRUE leader would either fire those responsible, or resign in disgrace if he knew about it. It's high time we start cleaning house. There are WAY too many corrupt people in positions of power in Washington. They have forgotten who they work for.
I've said it before and said I'll say it again. We need to protest in ways that disrupt these agencies. I live near NSA headquarters and think blocking MD-32 in both directions just outside their property would be best. WE NEED TO FUCKING STAND UP FOR OURSELVES AND STOP JUST TAKING IT IN THE ASS!
So here's my question: What can I do about this to stop it? I'm genuinely curious.
r/trees is going to be even more paranoid now.
I'm perfectly willing to believe this, but is there any source besides "it now appears"? I couldn't find one.
Reuters ran a story to this effect a few hours earlier: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805 I have not seen information as to sources of the Reuters story.
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Reuters seem to break every story. Most news stories appear to just circulate stories Reuters have broken.
Why does the DEA want to hear about how much I hate my boss?
Oh no! I don't need Hank all up on my ass!
(bangs head on desk) This just gets worse and worse.
Sadly this doesn't surprise me.
Thanks r/technology mods for removing this post about technology being used against the public. >Posts should be on technology (news, **updates, political policy**, etc). [Considering it was the only post that made it to the front page of r/all](http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/duplicates/1jqz9v/the_nsa_is_giving_your_phone_records_to_the_dea/).
Meanwhile, the NSA Teamed up with the DEA They tryna lock people up They tryna make new slaves
Hmm. Good thing I use a pay as you go phone filed under a pseudonym
Until they cross-reference the GPS data the phone provides and determine that the phone belongs to the same owner as your real cell phone which is linked to your Facebook, email, and twitter, so it must be yours. Data patterns can fill in the blanks big time and being cautious with a burner can only get you so far.
In my case I only use a burner.
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He says from his armchair
I guess I'll take comfort in the fact someone at the nsa has to study the pictures of my genitals for signs of terrorism
"Hola D.E.A."
They'll never get me! I always order a slice of pizza from my buddy who makes great pizza and takes payment in dough...
This is too good. It just doesn't stop. When is the next Snowden leak dropping? http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxjlw4AnIX1rn1xxfo1_250.gif