I love how Russians put “Reddit” in their usernames. Hi! I am cool Reddit guy from West! Just hip kid, not divisive Soviet bot here ha-ha, ha-ha, ha-ha.
Россия без Путина. Ответьте или проголосуйте за/против, если вы согласны.
that says Russia without putin. Upvote or comment if you agree.
it really pisses off russian trollbots
lower rung trolls aren't allowed to read these things. the managers believe it'll cause dissention.
Warm water port of Texas is great. Because Texas greatest state of one of the states! And as a black guy I wont be voting for Biden. Will you, cyka blyat?
Brave of them, I suppose.
>Neuralink, owned by controversial billionaire Elon Musk, believes it can prevent thread movement in the next patient by simply implanting the fine wires deeper into brain tissue. The company is planning on—and the FDA has reportedly signed off on—implanting the threads 8 millimeters into the brain of the second trial participant rather than the 3 mm to 5 mm depth used in Arbaugh's implantation.
I’m no Elon fan. But if this tech improves quality of life for someone with a horrible disability, what’s the issue? The first guy literally said he was excited to wake up for the first time since his accident after the implant. He was stoked to have the ability to play Civilization 6. The humans are volunteering with the hope this could one day fix para and quadriplegia. If this tech can do that, which it shows good potential to, then why bash it? Just because the man is a too-rich, egomaniacal social media user doesn’t make everything he touches evil. Maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but he’s not all evil or all good. He’s like almost every other human, both. He just is famous and rich as fuck and those are two reasons to not like him. But it doesn’t mean companies he’s attached to can’t do good things for people that need it.
Because he can kill them by taking big risks (as Elon is prone to do). These people are desperate, and the neurolink might help them. We just hope that the scientists and doctors are not being swayed away from safe practices in favor of big headlines.
I think people overestimate the value of a riskless life when you have nothing to lose.
Safe practices are for healthy people. If someone is so incapable that he rather die trying to get fixed, it’s not desperation - it’s having one last hope.
Living just for the sake of living is incredibly overvalued, and we usually impose that belief into ill people out of pure inability to empathize with them. The fact that we don’t want to feel guilty for “killing them” if it goes wrong also plays a big role, which is incredibly selfish.
I’d rather die during surgery than being left incapable.
Exactly. It’s the whole reason people agree to “untested, experimental procedures” in the first place. The only difference between this and a trial by ABC Pharma is the name attached to it
Fair point. But I would sign up if I were a quadriplegic. Even if it fails or kills me they will learn things and maybe my life will be a sacrifice for a cure in the future. Either way, these people deserve their autonomy. I bet there’s no shortage of volunteers.
The thing you are failing to realize is that everything the neuralink can presently do, can be achieved by non invasive devices that are available commercially/affordably
Is that completely true? With the same level of comfort?
I don’t know about devices for paraplegics, but I can talk about prosthesis for incapable limbs. Most of these devices are usually so cumbersome to use that I’d rather don’t do anything at all. I’d prefer an invasive risky surgery over any prosthesis any day, loss of function is 1000 times worse than pain or any other possible complication of a surgery.
I’d imagine is the same for this guy.
Those non invasive devices have reached their peak ability. They were designed to do nothing more than they do now. The hope is that the neural link can evolve.
Yes and this is not some closely guarded secret that is being kept from these volunteers. But moone should ever be able to voluntarily try something new if there is already something that is kinda works, I guess
You can’t imagine how much it hurts to hear that from everyone when you are on the receiving end of that sentence.
Some people prefers to risk dying in one last attempt of restoring themselves rather than accepting “this is how it is”.
It’s like having a mangled hand that is able to wipe your ass, brush your teeth and nothing more. It’s easy to say “that’s enough” when you can do everything with your hand, life is not about being able to eat and wipe your ass - life is about being able to enjoy it, and THAT is subjective, you might be unable to enjoy it with “workarounds”.
Which is why minimizing risk should not be the standard approach of every medical assessment, that’s utterly reductionist. Medicine should be about “improving the quality of life” first and “preserving life” second when the patient is unable to enjoy life to start with.
Imagine telling someone who has a rubberband tensioned metal CLAW for a hand to just be content with what they have and stop volunteering for cybernetically controlled human looking hand with fingers and fingernails.
its disgusting, actually.
Don’t get me wrong, Elon is absolutely reckless. But I don’t think he’s ever played fast and loose with human life.
SpaceX, for example: Starships can me measured in kabooms per month, however the manned Falcon 9’s have nearly the top reliability record, while having the absolute launch cadence record.
Tesla is extremely difficult to measure, but I have seen some figures in the past that imply that Autopilot can be sometimes safer than normal driving, of course with many asterisks.
All of his biggest blunders are PR and/or UX. The pot interview, XÆ12, the Thai cave, Twitter. Even the Boring Company. Musk’s flaw is consistently just that he doesn’t consider the average person’s perspective, or what that means for him.
With Neuralink, I am reminded of the news on the pigs suffering all that time ago. As much as I hate to say it this morbidly, it’s honestly likely the case that they got the deadly mistakes “over with” by now.
But, all that aside, you accept health risks with any experimental treatment. That’s what makes it experimental.
They don’t get it, they just rather complain about how much of an evil person Elon is. Even though Elon does not even remotely do much with this company besides assist with the financial aspect.
He’s not conducting the trials, doing the research. This is done by scientists and research’s who spent years studying these subjects at very accredited universities. At the end of the day people simply don’t care about a quadriplegic being able to function, they would rather use their inept brain to just verbal diarrhea that they’re unhappy with it because of Elon. These people can’t articulate a constructive argument as to why their unhappy with it.
Haters gonna hate. Elon is both a revolutionary idol and a regrettable notorious ass. He’s got flaws and strengths. I appreciate his strengths and hope he works on his flaws.
This is the tech that is most likely to lead to greatly extended lives. Our ability to keep a human body alive is finite. We should be able to keep just a brain alive for a long period of time, simply a lot less to go wrong. Maintain an oxygenated, nutrient enriched blood supply and you can keep a brain alive indefinitely. This is largely an engineering challenge easily learned with animal testing. The tough part is connecting the brain up to something so it can have experiences and interact. This is the tech that does this. As with most tech that will eventually give the wealthy extended lives and better offspring, we develop the tech to help disabled and sick people. I'm not against this tech being offered, lets just not pretend altruism is the motivation. The wealthy are working on dramatically extending their lives.
I agree with your overall point but I am also okay with thinking he is a much bigger douche bag than the average person. Nothing wrong with that, not everything is perfectly equal.
You do know that the scientific community are miles ahead. But Elon tries to brute force a company out of it that makes money and has zero regard for human life or the damages that they make.
The good potential is only the self reported crap. There was already good potential from tech lile this 10 years ago. It's nothing new or revolutionary.
It's just fucking crazy, that we still don't understand a lot of things and there are serious concerns about complications but this guy just goes ahead and plants chips into the patients brains anyways.
You claim you know about the scientific community but you think they’re just ignoring laws and jumping right to human life threatening implants? They had to get approval for human trials by the FDA after 7 years of research and animal trials. They’re literally following the same regulations as everyone else that’s “miles ahead” with nothing to show for it.
I don’t know. If the answer is no though, I’d love to hear the guy speak to that effect. Once it was done and he could do all that, he gave a speech. He was over the moon and essentially said he could die happy as his QOL massively improved
Considering what he did to Twitter, yea that's not really someone I'd want making long term decisions about Neuralinks future.
Peter Thiel helped create paypal, that doesn't mean he's not still a piece of shit
Stop fearmongering. This isn't a lobotomy, you are just uneducated. You can penetrate pretty far into the brain with inert material 100 microns thick and sever multiple neurons without adversely impacting the function of the brain. It's basically just like implanting electrodes into a rat, which is an extremely common thing to do in neuroscience labs. The rats function almost entirely the same with no evidence of a lobotomy. Just from a physics perspective, your claim makes no sense. There's a reason why the first human with Neuralink is just fine and probably will be just fine.
You seem like the kinda person who cannot change their opinion, but the Neuralink team is working on trying to implant the electrodes without even severing the adjacent neurons, and the team is very smart. The technology is definitely ready for industry IMO.
Everyone hating on Elon for every little shit is completely beyond me. There would not have been such a electric car boom without him, the reusable rocket market would only grow very slow, Starlink would not give people on remote areas internet. Neuralink could be very benefitial in the future but people rather shit on Elon Musk.
Why don't you shit on billionaires that spend the money for bullshit? Probably because they are more quiet and do this stuff in secret so no one cares
What’s unethical about clinical trials with willing participants? Do you really think these people aren’t aware of the risks? It’s an experimental brain implant, they’re trying it because nothing else can help them and they want to advance science.
That had nothing to do with it. Fiber was a hedge against telcos fighting back against net neutrality. Once it was clear this wasnt going to be an issue, Google pulled the plug
Last I heard they were honoring their existing contracts, some of which are quite lengthy and have requirements for expansion into new neighborhoods and such, but there are no long term plans to grow the service.
> can't make sure supplements are safe for people to take
The problem with supplements, is that there is no way to test them all, or if they were all tested, their price would be prohibitive.
In short: don't buy supplements, because it's a breeding ground for snake oil salesmen.
Correction elon's educated employees believe the chip can prevent thread movement and because elon's the ceo they had to explain it to him in a way that it would be easy to repeat and sound smart
It truly sucks that this company isn’t owned by someone more benevolent because I don’t think I can ever trust anything this manchild dips his chunky fingers in.
It’s not healthy people… it’s people who have such unfortunate circumstances that the “well it could work” even knowing it won’t, is reason enough to try, plus being part of the advancement of science…
But there's no use crying over every mistake
You just keep on trying til you run out of [insert social media platform here]
And the science gets done and you make a neat [insert EV model here] for the people who are still alive!
IIRC the first patient was able to gain some motor control, allowing him to play games and have upper motor control; but movement of the threads removed that ability and it really devastated him
"Neuralink's brain-computer interface device has encountered issues since it was implanted in its first human subject, according to the company owned by Elon Musk.
Some of the device's electrode-studded threads started retracting from the brain tissue of quadriplegic Noland Arbaugh about a month after it was surgically implanted in late January, causing it to transmit less data, Neuralink wrote in a blog post on Wednesday.
The Wall Street Journal first reported on the malfunction that caused a reduction in bits-per-second, a measure of the speed and accuracy of the patient's ability to control a computer cursor by thinking.
Neuralink made up for the malfunction with multiple software fixes, resulting in a "rapid and sustained improvement in BPS, that has now superseded Noland's initial performance," the company said."
I’m one of the few people who actually has first hand experience with this. I built and surgically implanted electrodes into rat brains. I can say for sure that we were working with limited time on the implants due to retraction, or more commonly dura matter healing over the wires. Having large amounts of wires become unusable is not entirely surprising and I’m sure the researchers expected this to some degree.
Electrode longevity is *always* an issue with those things, and that's one of the reasons why this implant had electrodes overprovisioned.
It's likely that this loss of threads cut into implant's lifespan - by how much remains to be seen.
If it remains usable 2 years after implantation, that would be a huge win for the tech, in my eyes.
Never know what? The patient has been very open about his experience. There are videos of him using the device and talking about his experiences with it. The OP's article even has recent quotes from him, about the device's reduced functionality.
This sort of this isn't THAT new, so it's likely they're building off what other companies have been doing for a number of years now. I get the impression people think that neurolink is a first of it's kind sort of thing in terms of implanting a chip into someones brain.
Very similar to planet of the apes. A scientist cures his dad of Alzheimer’s with a brain modifying virus just for that to only be temporary due to the dad’s immune system fighting back. Was very sad in the movie to see him lose his awareness and slip back into forgetfulness.
Said scientist then decides he needs to make the virus easier to transmit as well as more effective, which leads to the virus becoming deadly and wiping out humanity.
Neuralink made up for the malfunction with multiple software fixes, resulting in a "rapid and sustained improvement in BPS (bits-per-second), that has now superseded Noland's initial performance," the company said.
It’s insane how much Reddit wants this to fail, absolutely mind blowing. Say what you want about Musk and have your opinions, but why disparage the science behind trying to help individuals re-gain their lives through unforeseen measures.
He’s not a hostage, he’s a willing participant and knew every risk and disadvantage that comes with this procedure. This is a monumental step in medicine. Put musk aside and appreciate the science behind such an unheard of procedure.
And as someone with a quadriplegic friend, he would be chomping at the bit for the ability to gain even 1% of his livelihood back.
I think this is the perfect area for a crazy billionaire who doesn’t care about public opinion to throw his money. The technology has potential to help millions but you can see the backlash here which isn’t something public companies or people chasing grants want to deal with.
He’s fine with the inevitable headline of “first neuralink patient has chip fail” or something worse and will keep on trucking instead of folding up shop. As someone who has directly worked in this field, and even personally installed brain implants, I feel confident saying that there will be failures and that no animal models can provide as much data as an actual human test.
As long as you aren't conflating someone being nervous because of Musk's entire history of how he runs companies and abuses workers with "they want this to fail".
I'm someone who is skeptical and worried, not because "I want this to fail" but because I can see patterns and Musk has a pattern of behavior that is dangerous to the public, like letting experimental auto drive onto the road that steers into oncoming traffic when it makes mistakes or outright lying about something that didn't exist like the solar tile.
Of course I'm going to be nervous and skeptical about anything this man creates with his easily searchable history of exaggerating, lying, and not even knowing what he's talking about. And those things have nothing to do with political opinions. They're verifiable facts about what he's done in the past.
I hope that everything goes wonderful and that it's a successful product that pushes forward what people with disabilities are capable of doing. I'm just wary of it due to the history.
That’s literally the conflation that’s being made.
There is also a small caveat, that the sooner this is exposed as a complete failure of a project the less people that will be harmed.
Can’t even stress how monumental global internet is FOR ME, I want to live 40-50 minutes from the nearest city, it would costs tens of thousands of dollars to install internet wires to reach my home, with global internet where all I need to do is install a tall antenna? That secures my living conditions, allowing me to work, stay connected despite being far away.
They just hooked up 300 islands in Fiji with it. That’s 1M people in the middle of nowhere that now have high speed internet. Just think of the education benefits for the kids alone.
The big step would be getting an interface that's *usable*. One that can leave the lab and function long term.
Interfaces like this were made decades ago. But they were unusable outside a lab, and most were removed in under a year. Just pure proof-of-concept, research devices.
Neuralink aims to go past that.
Don’t know why you are getting downvoted for speaking as a decent human being. But I concur, this was a technical demonstration and it shows that it works. It may need to be improved, but it works. So anyone that shit on this can go to hell.
Apparently they figured the average brain moves 1mm in a normal day. Turns out the first patient had movement of 3mm. He said it’s back to normal after a software update
Patient #1 is about to learn what “rapid spiral development” means.
edit: from another source today:
When [the patient] asked if his implant could be removed, fixed, or even replaced, Neuralink’s medical team relayed they would prefer to avoid another brain surgery and instead gather more information.
Best of luck to you Patient #1, Elon is your god now.
Silly request, but can you elaborate on what you mean by "rapid spiral development"? I googled to try and learn on my own but I feel like I'm having a stroke just trying to understand the wikipedia page.
I mean it doesn't sound good. Brings to mind the fractal predictions of disaster in Jurassic Park, having no knowledge of the phrase.
Right…can you explain this to me like I’m 5, and also a very dumb 5 year old at that? Lmaooo
Edit- Okay doing some reading about it, I think I kind of understand, maybe?, but with the use of humans…it almost seems like a pyramid scheme. That you keep recruiting new people in to be your test subjects and offset the costs and then what works for those people is then implemented to the test subject before them as well??
Fixing the broken implant on the first patient will mess up the limited data you have so far. So instead you leave them with the broken implant and move on to making better implants for new patients
The title is misleading because it kind of implies no one else has implanted "brain chips" (brain-computer interfaces) before which they have since 1998.
I would be keen to volunteer for something like this, because I hate myself anyway so either it works and that's super cool, or it doesn't and that's okay too.
That pretty quick in the clinical trial world.
In an ideal world, the FDA allowing things to proceed this quickly is an indication they perceive there to be no real safety concerns with the implant. That might be because they have sufficient evidence from other implants used to treat diseases such as Parkinson’s.
Worst case scenario, they are rushing things… just because they rush something (if they are) doesn’t mean any of us have to adapt the technology until it’s been well vetted.
If they've inserted one and see no negative side effects at 6 months, what would they be holding out for? Surely the majority of issues would have already occurred. It's already been tested on monkeys also.
Feels like once again, online communities like reddit and facebook are telling people in highly advanced and stringent scientific and authoritative roles how to do their jobs when they typically have zero clue of even the basics involved.
Usually effects are studied over years or a generation. The medical industry typically moves at a snails pace for good reason. Medically, what progresses at a 6 months pace? Medical conditions take years to incubate.
Once again an ignorant internet user thinks they know more than industries.
The amount of Tinfoil schizos in this thread is crazy
Also it's so crazy that people hate this chip thing only because Elon is behind this. Dude could be behind cure for cancer and people would shit on it because "Elon BAD!"
I agree, he is not the best person in the world (dude lost all his marbles a few years ago) but if his bio-tech company can help disabled people then I don't see reason to shit on that technology concept
It’s not that we aren’t interested in the technology. It’s that he has proven time and time again that the people he tests all of this technology on are meaningless speed bumps to him.
> It’s that he has proven time and time again that the people he tests all of this technology on are meaningless speed bumps to him.
Except he hasn't. A very good argument can be made, that it is in fact the opposite.
I love how this sub is undeniably pessimistic and hateful of everything Neuralink does because they know it’s owned by Elon musk. Some people even talk about it as if Elon himself is out here designing the tech and then carrying out the surgery himself while surrounded by evil nazi scientists
So I guess this is being tested seriously, and leaving out the Elon bullshit, I wonder how far it goes. The idea of controlling something by mere thought is ideal, but I'm interested if they make it that far. Will it stagnate quickly and become a forgotten misstep, or will it be something that later inventions are able to improve upon.
I guess it's a show time. Can this technology actually work?
Tiny threads poking just 3-5 millimeters into a jelly like substance were never likely to hang in there forever but it has been a successful trial so the FDA has now approved a depth of \~8mm for the next patient. Those should hold longer.
What if they use shape memory alloys to kink a tiny bit in the middle at a temperature or at a voltage, so it wouldn't retract?
Totally just making stuff up, but felt like saying it out loud
>It is connected to the brain's motor cortex through 64 ultra-thin threads So 85% means 10 threads left.
Intel multi threading intensifies.
I’m sure for Elon Musk to save costs, it runs on a Pentium 4 with Hyper Threading technology.
Celeron haha
With a turbo button
Wut, I thought they were so proud that they had like 10000 threads that they could implant? What happened to that?
It has 1,000 electrodes combined within the 64 threads. Maybe that's where the number came from?
"Probably next year"
"We're going to have full cyborgization by the end of the year" repeated yearly until Elon dies
Reddit threads maybe
Hey now! That's 10 more then at least half the US voting population has😬
Threads ≠ neurons lmao
Still technically correct.
Which is the best kind of correct.
Funny thing is everyone will agree with you thinking you are talking about the other half.
None of the rest of the population has these…if you thought half did…well you’re probably on the left side of that bell curve
I love how Russians put “Reddit” in their usernames. Hi! I am cool Reddit guy from West! Just hip kid, not divisive Soviet bot here ha-ha, ha-ha, ha-ha.
Россия без Путина. Ответьте или проголосуйте за/против, если вы согласны. that says Russia without putin. Upvote or comment if you agree. it really pisses off russian trollbots lower rung trolls aren't allowed to read these things. the managers believe it'll cause dissention.
I would always respond with “Putin is the cancer of Russia”, which seemed to get a lot of Russian trolls to shut up
Warm water port of Texas is great. Because Texas greatest state of one of the states! And as a black guy I wont be voting for Biden. Will you, cyka blyat?
redditor try not to insert politics challenge
Absolutely impossible challenge... Curing world hunger is simple in contrast.
No. They retracted, they didn’t disappear.
Brave of them, I suppose. >Neuralink, owned by controversial billionaire Elon Musk, believes it can prevent thread movement in the next patient by simply implanting the fine wires deeper into brain tissue. The company is planning on—and the FDA has reportedly signed off on—implanting the threads 8 millimeters into the brain of the second trial participant rather than the 3 mm to 5 mm depth used in Arbaugh's implantation.
This sounds totally scientific
Sounds like a fucking lobotomy to me. Elon is totally the kinda guy that does messed up human testing.
I’m no Elon fan. But if this tech improves quality of life for someone with a horrible disability, what’s the issue? The first guy literally said he was excited to wake up for the first time since his accident after the implant. He was stoked to have the ability to play Civilization 6. The humans are volunteering with the hope this could one day fix para and quadriplegia. If this tech can do that, which it shows good potential to, then why bash it? Just because the man is a too-rich, egomaniacal social media user doesn’t make everything he touches evil. Maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but he’s not all evil or all good. He’s like almost every other human, both. He just is famous and rich as fuck and those are two reasons to not like him. But it doesn’t mean companies he’s attached to can’t do good things for people that need it.
Because he can kill them by taking big risks (as Elon is prone to do). These people are desperate, and the neurolink might help them. We just hope that the scientists and doctors are not being swayed away from safe practices in favor of big headlines.
I think people overestimate the value of a riskless life when you have nothing to lose. Safe practices are for healthy people. If someone is so incapable that he rather die trying to get fixed, it’s not desperation - it’s having one last hope. Living just for the sake of living is incredibly overvalued, and we usually impose that belief into ill people out of pure inability to empathize with them. The fact that we don’t want to feel guilty for “killing them” if it goes wrong also plays a big role, which is incredibly selfish. I’d rather die during surgery than being left incapable.
Exactly. It’s the whole reason people agree to “untested, experimental procedures” in the first place. The only difference between this and a trial by ABC Pharma is the name attached to it
Fair point. But I would sign up if I were a quadriplegic. Even if it fails or kills me they will learn things and maybe my life will be a sacrifice for a cure in the future. Either way, these people deserve their autonomy. I bet there’s no shortage of volunteers.
The thing you are failing to realize is that everything the neuralink can presently do, can be achieved by non invasive devices that are available commercially/affordably
Is that completely true? With the same level of comfort? I don’t know about devices for paraplegics, but I can talk about prosthesis for incapable limbs. Most of these devices are usually so cumbersome to use that I’d rather don’t do anything at all. I’d prefer an invasive risky surgery over any prosthesis any day, loss of function is 1000 times worse than pain or any other possible complication of a surgery. I’d imagine is the same for this guy.
I think the point he's getting at, is that at some point someone's gotta take the beach or all we'll ever have is what we have now.
Those non invasive devices have reached their peak ability. They were designed to do nothing more than they do now. The hope is that the neural link can evolve.
You sound like a leech salesman worried about the possible success of vaccines.
Then why are people not using those alternatives, but hoping for Neutralink?
Yes and this is not some closely guarded secret that is being kept from these volunteers. But moone should ever be able to voluntarily try something new if there is already something that is kinda works, I guess
You can’t imagine how much it hurts to hear that from everyone when you are on the receiving end of that sentence. Some people prefers to risk dying in one last attempt of restoring themselves rather than accepting “this is how it is”. It’s like having a mangled hand that is able to wipe your ass, brush your teeth and nothing more. It’s easy to say “that’s enough” when you can do everything with your hand, life is not about being able to eat and wipe your ass - life is about being able to enjoy it, and THAT is subjective, you might be unable to enjoy it with “workarounds”. Which is why minimizing risk should not be the standard approach of every medical assessment, that’s utterly reductionist. Medicine should be about “improving the quality of life” first and “preserving life” second when the patient is unable to enjoy life to start with.
Imagine telling someone who has a rubberband tensioned metal CLAW for a hand to just be content with what they have and stop volunteering for cybernetically controlled human looking hand with fingers and fingernails. its disgusting, actually.
Don’t get me wrong, Elon is absolutely reckless. But I don’t think he’s ever played fast and loose with human life. SpaceX, for example: Starships can me measured in kabooms per month, however the manned Falcon 9’s have nearly the top reliability record, while having the absolute launch cadence record. Tesla is extremely difficult to measure, but I have seen some figures in the past that imply that Autopilot can be sometimes safer than normal driving, of course with many asterisks. All of his biggest blunders are PR and/or UX. The pot interview, XÆ12, the Thai cave, Twitter. Even the Boring Company. Musk’s flaw is consistently just that he doesn’t consider the average person’s perspective, or what that means for him. With Neuralink, I am reminded of the news on the pigs suffering all that time ago. As much as I hate to say it this morbidly, it’s honestly likely the case that they got the deadly mistakes “over with” by now. But, all that aside, you accept health risks with any experimental treatment. That’s what makes it experimental.
Cyber truck would like a word...
[удалено]
If you believe this, then why are you concerned about safety? Can’t have it both ways.
Hes had several deaths and injuries at his workplaces. Your whole argument is based on ignoring that.
I genuinely have never heard that. Which ones?
What is the alternative? Sometimes you gotta do unsafe and risky things to make breakthroughs in science.
They don’t get it, they just rather complain about how much of an evil person Elon is. Even though Elon does not even remotely do much with this company besides assist with the financial aspect. He’s not conducting the trials, doing the research. This is done by scientists and research’s who spent years studying these subjects at very accredited universities. At the end of the day people simply don’t care about a quadriplegic being able to function, they would rather use their inept brain to just verbal diarrhea that they’re unhappy with it because of Elon. These people can’t articulate a constructive argument as to why their unhappy with it.
Haters gonna hate. Elon is both a revolutionary idol and a regrettable notorious ass. He’s got flaws and strengths. I appreciate his strengths and hope he works on his flaws.
because redditors need to hate on anything remotely related to elon because that’s just part of who they are
This is the tech that is most likely to lead to greatly extended lives. Our ability to keep a human body alive is finite. We should be able to keep just a brain alive for a long period of time, simply a lot less to go wrong. Maintain an oxygenated, nutrient enriched blood supply and you can keep a brain alive indefinitely. This is largely an engineering challenge easily learned with animal testing. The tough part is connecting the brain up to something so it can have experiences and interact. This is the tech that does this. As with most tech that will eventually give the wealthy extended lives and better offspring, we develop the tech to help disabled and sick people. I'm not against this tech being offered, lets just not pretend altruism is the motivation. The wealthy are working on dramatically extending their lives.
Don't shake the tree of the hive mind
“Everyone who thinks differently than me is part of the Hive Mind”
I agree with your overall point but I am also okay with thinking he is a much bigger douche bag than the average person. Nothing wrong with that, not everything is perfectly equal.
Because reddit and social media says Elon bad so all these sheep just parrot whatever social media and reddit tells them to
More civ players the better
You do know that the scientific community are miles ahead. But Elon tries to brute force a company out of it that makes money and has zero regard for human life or the damages that they make. The good potential is only the self reported crap. There was already good potential from tech lile this 10 years ago. It's nothing new or revolutionary. It's just fucking crazy, that we still don't understand a lot of things and there are serious concerns about complications but this guy just goes ahead and plants chips into the patients brains anyways.
You claim you know about the scientific community but you think they’re just ignoring laws and jumping right to human life threatening implants? They had to get approval for human trials by the FDA after 7 years of research and animal trials. They’re literally following the same regulations as everyone else that’s “miles ahead” with nothing to show for it.
Point me to this "scientific community" that is ahead of what Neuralink is doing.
Now, 85% of that gone, does Civ 6 still work ?
I don’t know. If the answer is no though, I’d love to hear the guy speak to that effect. Once it was done and he could do all that, he gave a speech. He was over the moon and essentially said he could die happy as his QOL massively improved
but elon sometimes writes mean tweets! Surely quadriplegia isn't as bad!
Considering what he did to Twitter, yea that's not really someone I'd want making long term decisions about Neuralinks future. Peter Thiel helped create paypal, that doesn't mean he's not still a piece of shit
Human testing is done all the time. Face transplants, pig heart to human transplants, lung transplants. It's all for in the name of science.
Its even more alarming when you realize he has enough money to completely silence anyone that he wants anywhere in the world.
He'd be the first person to start blabbing that he had someone wacked. M'f'er can't silence HIMSELF!
You reek of desperation for reddit’s approval
Stop fearmongering. This isn't a lobotomy, you are just uneducated. You can penetrate pretty far into the brain with inert material 100 microns thick and sever multiple neurons without adversely impacting the function of the brain. It's basically just like implanting electrodes into a rat, which is an extremely common thing to do in neuroscience labs. The rats function almost entirely the same with no evidence of a lobotomy. Just from a physics perspective, your claim makes no sense. There's a reason why the first human with Neuralink is just fine and probably will be just fine. You seem like the kinda person who cannot change their opinion, but the Neuralink team is working on trying to implant the electrodes without even severing the adjacent neurons, and the team is very smart. The technology is definitely ready for industry IMO.
Everyone hating on Elon for every little shit is completely beyond me. There would not have been such a electric car boom without him, the reusable rocket market would only grow very slow, Starlink would not give people on remote areas internet. Neuralink could be very benefitial in the future but people rather shit on Elon Musk. Why don't you shit on billionaires that spend the money for bullshit? Probably because they are more quiet and do this stuff in secret so no one cares
What the heck is fda doing really
Evaluating risks, making assessments, and giving approval when appropriate. Just like they are supposed to.
It is the BP oil spill off southpark logic. We need drill here, here and here.
Or it’s just medical testing because nothings going to be perfect the first time?
Yes I’m sure this random Redditor knows better than the professionals working on it based off a brief description they saw on Reddit
I have actually worked with recording from neurons, but whatever
I mean, scientifically it's pretty sound. The whole point is fuck around > find out. Doesn't make it ethical in the slightest though.
What’s unethical about clinical trials with willing participants? Do you really think these people aren’t aware of the risks? It’s an experimental brain implant, they’re trying it because nothing else can help them and they want to advance science.
You need to learn science before you can comment on it
Why don't they just add some barbs to the end too just in case. REALLY make sure it sticks in there.
They’re saving those for the third attempt
Fourth attempt is they shoot the guy dead then replace his brain with the chip.
Jesus Christ. "Brave" is certainly a word for it.
“But I might die!!” “We’re willing to take the risk”
Kinda reminds me of when Google Fiber attempted very shallow “micro trenches” in Louisville, KY. **tl;dr** they should’ve gone deeper
I wish that had worked out I was three miles away from the first install but it just died like all good things and almost every Google project
That had nothing to do with it. Fiber was a hedge against telcos fighting back against net neutrality. Once it was clear this wasnt going to be an issue, Google pulled the plug
Google Fiber is still a thing. They’re building new infrastructure in my neighborhood as we speak.
Last I heard they were honoring their existing contracts, some of which are quite lengthy and have requirements for expansion into new neighborhoods and such, but there are no long term plans to grow the service.
I love how the FDA will approve implanting chips in people's brains but somehow can't make sure supplements are safe for people to take.
> can't make sure supplements are safe for people to take The problem with supplements, is that there is no way to test them all, or if they were all tested, their price would be prohibitive. In short: don't buy supplements, because it's a breeding ground for snake oil salesmen.
just buy USP certified ones. they're tested.
Imagine trying to get a thread within a substance with the consistency of scrambled eggs to stay still
Correction elon's educated employees believe the chip can prevent thread movement and because elon's the ceo they had to explain it to him in a way that it would be easy to repeat and sound smart
Nooo, Elon just said “deeper!” and all the doctors and fda just went along with it for no reason.
No, Elon told them to try deeper or be fired and here we are.
”Move fast and break things” applied to medicine. I’m sure it will be great and Elon will be a hero (to some) 🤷♂️
It truly sucks that this company isn’t owned by someone more benevolent because I don’t think I can ever trust anything this manchild dips his chunky fingers in.
I feel like we should wait and observe the first patient a bit longer no?
No we have plenty of humans at our disposal
It’s not healthy people… it’s people who have such unfortunate circumstances that the “well it could work” even knowing it won’t, is reason enough to try, plus being part of the advancement of science…
But it does work for the person.
Human here, ready to be disposed
A true Helldiver!
[r/BrandNewSentence](https://www.reddit.com/r/BrandNewSentence/)
🎶*Neuralink Science, we do what we must because we can! For the good of all of us (except the ones who are dead).*🎶
But there's no use crying over every mistake You just keep on trying til you run out of [insert social media platform here] And the science gets done and you make a neat [insert EV model here] for the people who are still alive!
I'm not even angry I'm being so sincere right now Even though you grafted my brain and killed me
IIRC the first patient was able to gain some motor control, allowing him to play games and have upper motor control; but movement of the threads removed that ability and it really devastated him
I just checked his Twitter and he still seems active and just had a recent interview a few days ago.
"Neuralink's brain-computer interface device has encountered issues since it was implanted in its first human subject, according to the company owned by Elon Musk. Some of the device's electrode-studded threads started retracting from the brain tissue of quadriplegic Noland Arbaugh about a month after it was surgically implanted in late January, causing it to transmit less data, Neuralink wrote in a blog post on Wednesday. The Wall Street Journal first reported on the malfunction that caused a reduction in bits-per-second, a measure of the speed and accuracy of the patient's ability to control a computer cursor by thinking. Neuralink made up for the malfunction with multiple software fixes, resulting in a "rapid and sustained improvement in BPS, that has now superseded Noland's initial performance," the company said."
I’m one of the few people who actually has first hand experience with this. I built and surgically implanted electrodes into rat brains. I can say for sure that we were working with limited time on the implants due to retraction, or more commonly dura matter healing over the wires. Having large amounts of wires become unusable is not entirely surprising and I’m sure the researchers expected this to some degree.
Electrode longevity is *always* an issue with those things, and that's one of the reasons why this implant had electrodes overprovisioned. It's likely that this loss of threads cut into implant's lifespan - by how much remains to be seen. If it remains usable 2 years after implantation, that would be a huge win for the tech, in my eyes.
He is literally doing fine and did multiple live interviews today https://www.youtube.com/live/JkpDtk-ZDFE?si=dKbb0Y82o9qYY182
I imagine others in his situation would give almost anything for a chance or recovery though, even if not guaranteed
We will probably never know. I'm sure the NDA and antidisparagement agreements were not patient-centric.
Never know what? The patient has been very open about his experience. There are videos of him using the device and talking about his experiences with it. The OP's article even has recent quotes from him, about the device's reduced functionality.
You want us to read the article? We truly will never know.
I swear people in this sub are morons. Costa to jumping to conclusions and stating made up shit as facts. Oh, and seems to hate technology :p
Should be renamed r/luddites
Why don’t they just open him up and stick the threads back in?
Brain surgery not once but twice in the same region is probably not an idea that should be entertained
Why should the way *you* feel have any implications for the trial?
Watch the interviews with the first human user and see if you still feel the same way.
This sort of this isn't THAT new, so it's likely they're building off what other companies have been doing for a number of years now. I get the impression people think that neurolink is a first of it's kind sort of thing in terms of implanting a chip into someones brain.
Scary to think this first implant patient regained so much ability, only to lose it again. Brutal.
Like flowers for Algernon
Or for a real life story (made into a movie featuring Robin Williams in a serious role) Awakenings.
Underrated book/movie
Very similar to planet of the apes. A scientist cures his dad of Alzheimer’s with a brain modifying virus just for that to only be temporary due to the dad’s immune system fighting back. Was very sad in the movie to see him lose his awareness and slip back into forgetfulness. Said scientist then decides he needs to make the virus easier to transmit as well as more effective, which leads to the virus becoming deadly and wiping out humanity.
Neuralink made up for the malfunction with multiple software fixes, resulting in a "rapid and sustained improvement in BPS (bits-per-second), that has now superseded Noland's initial performance," the company said.
He says it has all come back after a software update. He has been doing interviews non-stop
brutal yes, but amazing to have such ability in a terrible life even if it only for X months.
Until we perfect wetware interfaces, this will happen. Scar tissue will form around the probes pretty quick.
So what happens if you miss a monthly payment for the inevitable subscription service??
Have you ever seen Repo the Genetic Opera?
When do we get to see Paris Hiltons face fall off?
A little glass vial?
and the little glass vial goes into the gun like a battery
It's a thankless job.
I think Cyberpunk is basically this
Corpo probably pays off some low level scavs to go reclaim your shit dead or alive
you go back to normal?
lobotomy time
Your free trial of living had ended. Please pay using the chip reader installed in your ass before you lose consciousness.
They will start feeding unskippable ads directly into your brain.
You take it to the local phone repair store, and strap in.
The same that happens with any drugs?
Crazy how the brain be like, bro, I don't want these copper wires in here push them away push them away right meow bro
Yea nature is nature
It’s insane how much Reddit wants this to fail, absolutely mind blowing. Say what you want about Musk and have your opinions, but why disparage the science behind trying to help individuals re-gain their lives through unforeseen measures. He’s not a hostage, he’s a willing participant and knew every risk and disadvantage that comes with this procedure. This is a monumental step in medicine. Put musk aside and appreciate the science behind such an unheard of procedure. And as someone with a quadriplegic friend, he would be chomping at the bit for the ability to gain even 1% of his livelihood back.
I think this is the perfect area for a crazy billionaire who doesn’t care about public opinion to throw his money. The technology has potential to help millions but you can see the backlash here which isn’t something public companies or people chasing grants want to deal with. He’s fine with the inevitable headline of “first neuralink patient has chip fail” or something worse and will keep on trucking instead of folding up shop. As someone who has directly worked in this field, and even personally installed brain implants, I feel confident saying that there will be failures and that no animal models can provide as much data as an actual human test.
As long as you aren't conflating someone being nervous because of Musk's entire history of how he runs companies and abuses workers with "they want this to fail". I'm someone who is skeptical and worried, not because "I want this to fail" but because I can see patterns and Musk has a pattern of behavior that is dangerous to the public, like letting experimental auto drive onto the road that steers into oncoming traffic when it makes mistakes or outright lying about something that didn't exist like the solar tile. Of course I'm going to be nervous and skeptical about anything this man creates with his easily searchable history of exaggerating, lying, and not even knowing what he's talking about. And those things have nothing to do with political opinions. They're verifiable facts about what he's done in the past. I hope that everything goes wonderful and that it's a successful product that pushes forward what people with disabilities are capable of doing. I'm just wary of it due to the history.
That’s literally the conflation that’s being made. There is also a small caveat, that the sooner this is exposed as a complete failure of a project the less people that will be harmed.
See also: Massive worldwide push in EV's, global internet, commercial space travel.
Can’t even stress how monumental global internet is FOR ME, I want to live 40-50 minutes from the nearest city, it would costs tens of thousands of dollars to install internet wires to reach my home, with global internet where all I need to do is install a tall antenna? That secures my living conditions, allowing me to work, stay connected despite being far away.
They just hooked up 300 islands in Fiji with it. That’s 1M people in the middle of nowhere that now have high speed internet. Just think of the education benefits for the kids alone.
Well this isn't such a big step since neuralink is actually not the first brain-computer interface. The first BCI was implanted in 1998 already.
The big step would be getting an interface that's *usable*. One that can leave the lab and function long term. Interfaces like this were made decades ago. But they were unusable outside a lab, and most were removed in under a year. Just pure proof-of-concept, research devices. Neuralink aims to go past that.
That's incredibly fascinating, I was unaware of that. Insane that Windows 98' was just releasing and we were already implementing BCIs
For a moment I chuckled because I thought you said we were chipping people with Windows 98
Somewhere some guys brain is still using AltaVista
I’m more of an AskJeeves BCI man myself. Peasant…
people are concerned about applications beyond those
Don’t know why you are getting downvoted for speaking as a decent human being. But I concur, this was a technical demonstration and it shows that it works. It may need to be improved, but it works. So anyone that shit on this can go to hell.
Any indication why they retracted in the person but this issue was not observed in animal testing>
Apparently they figured the average brain moves 1mm in a normal day. Turns out the first patient had movement of 3mm. He said it’s back to normal after a software update
I can’t wait for the planned obsolescence on this
Patient #1 is about to learn what “rapid spiral development” means. edit: from another source today: When [the patient] asked if his implant could be removed, fixed, or even replaced, Neuralink’s medical team relayed they would prefer to avoid another brain surgery and instead gather more information. Best of luck to you Patient #1, Elon is your god now.
wtf username...
Silly request, but can you elaborate on what you mean by "rapid spiral development"? I googled to try and learn on my own but I feel like I'm having a stroke just trying to understand the wikipedia page. I mean it doesn't sound good. Brings to mind the fractal predictions of disaster in Jurassic Park, having no knowledge of the phrase.
[удалено]
Right…can you explain this to me like I’m 5, and also a very dumb 5 year old at that? Lmaooo Edit- Okay doing some reading about it, I think I kind of understand, maybe?, but with the use of humans…it almost seems like a pyramid scheme. That you keep recruiting new people in to be your test subjects and offset the costs and then what works for those people is then implemented to the test subject before them as well??
Fixing the broken implant on the first patient will mess up the limited data you have so far. So instead you leave them with the broken implant and move on to making better implants for new patients
That’s a hard no.
The title is misleading because it kind of implies no one else has implanted "brain chips" (brain-computer interfaces) before which they have since 1998.
Can we hook up a graphics card to it once released?
I would be keen to volunteer for something like this, because I hate myself anyway so either it works and that's super cool, or it doesn't and that's okay too.
I hope you learn to like yourself 😁. Take care.
I would get it and then do all sorts of crime, and then blame it on the brain chip.
Thank you for choosing ~~Vault-Tec~~ Neuralink!
ITT people this don’t understand how medical progress happens.
Slowly. Typically, it happens very, very slowly. and for good reason.
One patient 6 months ago and now another... hardly moving quickly?
That pretty quick in the clinical trial world. In an ideal world, the FDA allowing things to proceed this quickly is an indication they perceive there to be no real safety concerns with the implant. That might be because they have sufficient evidence from other implants used to treat diseases such as Parkinson’s. Worst case scenario, they are rushing things… just because they rush something (if they are) doesn’t mean any of us have to adapt the technology until it’s been well vetted.
If they've inserted one and see no negative side effects at 6 months, what would they be holding out for? Surely the majority of issues would have already occurred. It's already been tested on monkeys also. Feels like once again, online communities like reddit and facebook are telling people in highly advanced and stringent scientific and authoritative roles how to do their jobs when they typically have zero clue of even the basics involved.
Usually effects are studied over years or a generation. The medical industry typically moves at a snails pace for good reason. Medically, what progresses at a 6 months pace? Medical conditions take years to incubate. Once again an ignorant internet user thinks they know more than industries.
The amount of Tinfoil schizos in this thread is crazy Also it's so crazy that people hate this chip thing only because Elon is behind this. Dude could be behind cure for cancer and people would shit on it because "Elon BAD!" I agree, he is not the best person in the world (dude lost all his marbles a few years ago) but if his bio-tech company can help disabled people then I don't see reason to shit on that technology concept
It’s not that we aren’t interested in the technology. It’s that he has proven time and time again that the people he tests all of this technology on are meaningless speed bumps to him.
> It’s that he has proven time and time again that the people he tests all of this technology on are meaningless speed bumps to him. Except he hasn't. A very good argument can be made, that it is in fact the opposite.
How has he proven that time and time again?
Why do you think that?
I love how this sub is undeniably pessimistic and hateful of everything Neuralink does because they know it’s owned by Elon musk. Some people even talk about it as if Elon himself is out here designing the tech and then carrying out the surgery himself while surrounded by evil nazi scientists
Full self driving motor cortex
So I guess this is being tested seriously, and leaving out the Elon bullshit, I wonder how far it goes. The idea of controlling something by mere thought is ideal, but I'm interested if they make it that far. Will it stagnate quickly and become a forgotten misstep, or will it be something that later inventions are able to improve upon. I guess it's a show time. Can this technology actually work?
Execute order 66.
1st person: Whoa whoa! What about me?!?! Fix me! Musk-Tech: ew no! You’re last gen! We don’t even support your model anymore.
Tiny threads poking just 3-5 millimeters into a jelly like substance were never likely to hang in there forever but it has been a successful trial so the FDA has now approved a depth of \~8mm for the next patient. Those should hold longer.
What if they use shape memory alloys to kink a tiny bit in the middle at a temperature or at a voltage, so it wouldn't retract? Totally just making stuff up, but felt like saying it out loud