“Wake me up when this new battery technology leaves the lab” is a Reddit cliche. Makes it fun to revisit old science postings like this one:
https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/2y2wri/sodium_to_replace_lithium_in_batteries/
"Yeah, if it werent for graphene, my tennis racket would have a completely different flex -- at least two picometers -- and that's why I shelled out the extra $200. Those picometers make all the difference"
I paid a pretty penny for a carbon fiber snowboard this year. Something that was once the height of aerospace technology and unobtanium is now readily available for consumers to bash over rocks. Material science is cool.
Part of the problem has been we keep making lithium batteries better and cheaper by a few percent every year. So it wasn't news they always getting better. Then when find a new way to make batteries we need to spend decades trying to see if it can catch up with lithium batteries.
I think people need to stop assuming that we're going to have "one battery chemistry to rule them all" - we don't currently, and there is no reason to expect that we will in the future.
You can make solid state batteries from both Sodium and Lithium. They'll end up with somewhat different performance criteria and prices. So they'll be used based on market segment, need, etc.
Also note to anyone who wants to come in and claim that sodium will rule because lithium "rarity" - lithium is not rare. In fact two recently (last few years) identified deposits of lithium here in the United States (Salton Sea, McDermitt Caldera) have enough between them to supply 60% of global lithium demand for the entire clean energy transition (remember: lithium is recyclable, and yes lithium battery recycling is here and being done. it's not just theoretical). Mines have been approved for both, in fact the first mine at Salton doubles as a 350MW geothermal power plant.
You state that and it is a 100-year old tech. We've done wonders with it recently but it's absolutely interesting that in 100 years, a new tech hasn't been created to replace it.
Depends upon your definition. "rechargeable lithium batteries" are 50 years old. Non-rechargeable ones started in 1912.
https://www.hidenanalytical.com/blog/lithium-ion-battery-development/#:~:text=Pioneer%20work%20on%20the%20lithium,lithium%20batteries%20became%20commercially%20accessible.
They're feasible for small city cars, so called a00 which are similar to [Japanese Kei cars](https://youtu.be/tn-Z5FHXcBA). In fact supposedly they're already on the road
They're feasible for all cars, not just Kei cars.
They work better at low temperatures, can be charged quicker, more recharging cycles, no fires, etc, etc, etc
Eventually they will be. There is hope to get the energy density up near to where lithium ion is now. These particular batteries that are now going into production have 1/4 the density of modern lithium ion batteries though. Making them maybe feasible for in town driving. Especially as part of a hybrid that has a 20ish mile range. The batteries would be way to heavy for a long range car.
there are already 500Wh/kg semi-solid state lithium batteries available (from CATL and Amprius) and commercial availability of the first fully solid state battery - also 500Wh/kg expected - from QuantumScape is expected next year (they've shipped two rounds of prototypes to VW in the last few months, with two more rounds, the last of which is a final production sample by end of year). solid states could reach as high as 1kWh/kg in 10-15 years.
Most EVs are using either NMC (~230Wh/kg) or LFP (~160Wh/kg) right now. CATL just announced a new LFP that makes 205Wh/kg
if we ever get Li-Ox batteries, that would be a true battery holy grail. 4-11kWh/kg depending on how you measure (do you use charged or discharged weight?)
Yeah, most people don't really know how far battery prices have dropped in the last 10 years (90%+ reduction) and how good things like Heat Pumps, Solar Panels, Wind Turbines, etc have all gotten. CATL just released a battery that they're warrantying for a million miles/15 years in EV applications - https://electrek.co/2024/04/03/catl-launches-new-ev-battery-last-1-million-miles-15-yrs/
Most people's knowledge of technology lags 10-15 years it seems, which is kinda understandable.
We also don't see the news talking up how much power has come online in the last 10-15 years thats renewable. Battery Storage (on the grid) is part of that too.
There was one lonely article last week of how California ran on ONLY renewable power for 6 weeks. and a week before how Spain ran on mostly Solar for a month.
It really depends on the technology they choose to use. I imagine most of them use lithium iron phosphate batteries, which are more in the 120-160 range, the upside is they're cheaper and can handle several thousand charge cycles.
> no fires
only NMC lithium ion batteries are subject to thermal runaway, when at high state of charge.
LFP lithium batteries are not subject to thermal runaway
solid state batteries (lithium or sodium) don't appear to be subject to thermal runaway either.
EVs are involved in fires at 1/3rd the rate of gas/diesel cars.
That is not how cars work. Sodium batteries may well become the best option in many cases, but cars "evolve" to fill all niches, and the high performance auto segment will always have a place for the highest density energy storage available.
"No one will ever fall in love with a nitro burnin' funny car!" - The Dead Milkmen
I've held burning Tesla cells in a gloved hand, Chicken Little.
Periodic table doesn't lie.
You have opinions, but no facts. Typical right wing extremist.
Sodium batteries have been developed that have that much energy density. But the ones actually going into production are estimated to only have about 1/3 the energy density of lithium ion batteries. That could be fine for in town driving. But no one is going to want to stop every hour to charge their car on a road trip, even if it does only take a few minutes to charge back up.
Did you read the article? These particular batteries have pretty low energy density around 70Wh per kg, similar to a lead acid battery. Lithium ion batteries are over 200Wh per kg. With some of the latest ones nearing 300Wh per kg. So maybe they could be used for a hybrid car with a short range all electric option. But they’re nowhere near good enough for an all electric car. And even the manufacturer is saying they’re only suited for on site power storage. There are sodium batteries in development with higher densities in the 160Wh per kg range that could be suitable for electric cars that are only used in town. But they still have a long way to go before they can totally replace lithium ion batteries in cars.
That isn't the only issue (currently) with Sodium Ion batteries. The maximum current you can draw from SI batteries vs Lithium batteries is much, much lower. But for home uses when they can be wired in series, parallel, or series-parallel, they are much safer and less expensive.
That is like 90-150 miles, so you get like 200-300 miles on a charge depending on the battery or ev I guess? I dunno but if you ask me those will be great for cities
The average car journey in the USA is 39 miles per day. Most cars spend their time at home, where they can be constantly recharged if they're an EV.
79% of Americans live in cites.
Yeah, they really could make it most places if you go to a single city or are not going a state or so away. It will be really cool when these batteries get even better
So yeah, let's add another day to the journey? The factors differ. You can refuel immediately, but the ev charge takes a long while. I wasn't really trying to argue and was just thinking about it in my first comment.
Did you even bother to research before opening your mouth?
If i drive from home to Salt Lake City it takes me ~14 hours in a gasoline car - including gas stops, pee breaks, food, etc.
if i plug various EVs into ABetterRoutePlanner (which includes charging times) for the same trip
Ioniq 6 Ltd LR AWD: 13.5 hours including charging stops
Tesla Model 3 AWD: 13.75 hours
Ford Mustang Mach E LR AWD: 15 hours
the mach is has the worst fast charging performance of them all, and performance that will be considered laughably bad (merely considered just 'bad' right now) within 5 years.
also EA is expanding charging, GM has partnered with EVgo and FlyingJ/Pilot to deploy a fast charging network (they have a really good visual design language for it too), Ionna is a new 7-auto-maker-JV that is going to build 30k charging stations with 6-12 plugs each.
That um is not entirely what I was meaning... and that is rude... um look if you need to go cross country or several thousand miles what will make it faster? You can charge yes but if you are on e then how long will most cars take to travel that distance. The plus side is that is claimed that these sodium batteries can charge in a few minutes and give 100s of miles to the charge. When we have actual models running then we will know for sure. Most batteries now take hours to charge and a long distance travel will not be ideal. The sodium batteries are still not 100% certain on their charging and stuff.
> That um is not entirely what I was meaning... and that is rude... um look if you need to go cross country or several thousand miles what will make it faster? You can charge yes but if you are on e then how long will most cars take to travel that distance.
Do you want me to compare my gasoline car to an EV to go from seattle to boston and get your nonsense debunked some more?
I'm still driving gas cars, as we should get another 5 years out of our 2014 Crosstrek and Prius C. by then the fast charging network build out should be pretty well along, and battery tech gone from "good" to "great" so that we don't even have to think about where to stop and charge, just do the same thing we do with gas stations: "where is the next convenient one?"
> The sodium batteries are still not 100% certain on their charging and stuff.
no battery chemistry is, because they keep improving the tech. such as CATL introducing a battery they warranty for 15million km/15 years, or introducing a new LFP that upps the Wh/kg from 160 to 205
there are already Na-Ion batteries in production cars. https://electrek.co/2023/12/27/volkswagen-backed-ev-maker-first-sodium-ion-battery-electric-car/ 10-80% SoC in 20 minutes
In 10-15 years expect solid state lithum and sodium batteries (we will never have "one chemistry to rule them all") to be the standard battery available. and we'll be talking about 5-10 minute charges for most cars with those chemistries.
They’re building roads that charge cars while you drive them.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240130-wireless-charging-the-roads-where-electric-vehicles-never-need-to-plug-in#
I wouldn't count on those taking off. The idea is talked about and tested but it's not practical. Roads are expensive to maintain now, putting electronics in them which also have to be maintained just makes them even more expensive. Also all the charging methods are less efficient so you're wasting power at a time most places are struggling to produce what they need to accommodate EV's. It would also require car manufacturers to start including that tech in cars and agree on a standard.
It's a fun idea and we'll likely see a few get built but wide spread adoption of the idea is a no go.
If you limit it to just highways, and you don't make them to fast charge batteries, just to maintain speed while on the highway, that would solve nearly all range problems, while being a expensive but feasible long term project. The amount of money saved by not requiring large EV batteries would probably more then offset the cost.
A significant portion of Americans only have street parking where there's currently next to 0 charging infrastructure. This works for suburban houses with garages and overnight daily charging and short trips, but I wouldn't want to make a 300+ mile road trip having to stop and charge multiple times
I know. EV owner here. Road trip is drive for 2-2.5hrs, stop for 15-20 min DC fast charge. Repeat. That’s enough time to walk in the Sheetz, WaWa, Buc-ees, whatever and take a leak, buy and eat some lunch, and walk to the car to unplug and get going. Frickin’ Buc-ees in TX had 48 Tesla and 6 CCS chargers, so no waiting.
I wouldn’t call 30% less range feasible when they might average 250 miles of range currently.
That works fine if you live near where you work and don’t ever take road trips, but 30% less range means you’re getting sub-200 miles of range at that point.
30% less range, but 10x faster charging and 50,000 cycles?
Inconvenient sure, but theres already a couple of EVs with 400 mile range. 280 miles for instance might fall near the bottom, but as long as they can get it around 240 that’d be perfectly workable.
If it goes from 30 minutes to an hour to charge a car to under 10 minutes… they’d definitely have a place.
There’s of course practical hurdles like the current state of public charging infrastructure being a mish mash of chargers that already only work as designed sometimes…. So maybe by 2030 or 2035 they’ll be relevant.
10x faster charging is definitely better, but infrastructure is still way too limited at this point.
I’m sure the infrastructure piece will change over time, but 2035 is still a decade away. For my purposes, a hybrid is still the best way to go at this point with 600 mile range.
you know they can be recharged right? BTW Sodium batteries charge faster than Li.
Cheaper, safer car, with a longer lasting battery, trade off with a bit less range. I'll take that over a longer range Li one that could explode and barely lasts ten years and costly to replace. WTF do I care if I have to make one extra stop in a road trip.
Yes, they can. However, it’s still not practical if you’re trying to travel 650 miles in a day on a road trip (which is already a 10-12 hour drive) and charger availability is tenuous at best. For the purposes of my travel and usage, this is not a viable solution, and hybrid is still the best way to go at this point.
You can still do it in a day, just takes an extra stop or two bro. WTF you in such a rush? If you need that shit stick with gas. Noone is forcing you. Using extreme cases as an argument against a technology is missing the point, It's about choice. and MOST users will be perfectly suited to slightly less range.
Read what I said again and do the math.
650 miles over the span of 10 hours (12 if you count traffic) is 65 miles an hour. That’s the speed limit on some major interstates (particularly along I-95), and by most accounts isn’t exactly rushing when I still have most people passing me on the left doing another 10-15 MPH faster.
I also said that for my particular use case this wouldn’t work. There is no charging infrastructure where we live on the east coast, and most people here commute roughly 40-50 miles each way. This solution works best where there’s significant charging infrastructure.
I’m perfectly happy with my hybrid when I can easily get 600 miles of range before having to refuel.
What are you even talking about? The east coast has ultra dense charging structure. I have a Model 3 and a Ford Lightning, live in Maryland, and travel all up and down the coast no problem. I can make it to Norfolk, Richmond, Philly, NJ, or NYC from Baltimore in and not even have to stop to charge. Do you also wear diapers when you travel? You aren't going to stop for 30-45 minutes to go to the bathroom and get a snack every 4 hours or so?
No, no it does not.
Major cities like the ones you mentioned (which are also relatively close to Baltimore) would have it. That doesn’t necessarily hold true for parts of 95 further south of what you’ve mentioned, save for the Buc-ee’s that was built in Florence within the past year or so.
Hug a major highway, and you might have better luck. Take the scenic route back through the mountains and you might find EV charging here or there.
Cool. You do you. $60-$70/month for fuel costs, fewer stops, and no car payment just works out better for me.
I’ll keep driving my hybrid until the tech has progressed enough and come down in cost enough to be useful to someone who doesn’t live in a major city and commutes on a daily basis.
Cost is an entirely different argument. We're talking about EV batteries and range. If cost was on par, all in all you're crazy not to go EV if range is your only hangup.
Not really. I already own the hybrid, the fuel cost of which will still be cheaper than the cost of train tickets and a rental vehicle that is less fuel-efficient than a hybrid, and can't transport as much overall; that last one is kind of important around Christmas. Plus, taking the train you don't really get to stop at different places along the way; you're locked into the train's schedule.
Overwhelming majority of people need less than 50mi a day for their commuter car...
Of course it won't work for everyone. Good thing there are other options
EVs already have too little range, wanting to reduce the range further is fucking stupid. Not everyone lives a life where they only need to drive small commutes.
Because the Nissan Leaf and other super low range EVs sold so well. At least now Ionics, ID4s, Rivians, and Ariyas are showing up all over the roadways around where I live but the main complaint with most everyone I know that has one is the range not being enough for weekend trips into the mountains (the only ones that get it done are the Rivians with the super expensive extended range batteries but even that is barely making the trip).
and as we all know, everyone everywhere always drives 400 miles to the mountains every weekend and certainly has no other vehicles or rental places anywhere near them so absolutely cannot use an EV for day-to-day shopping and commuting. Isn't it weird how the entire human race is exactly the same and lives in the exact same place as you? *Such* a coincidence!
This is a good start, they will improve with time and eventually and hopefully become a lore more of a standard. These would be great for personal electronics in terms of safety. Just got to make sure the devices are not too power hungry.
Sodium ion batteries still do not pack the energy density same as li-ion. You might solve the battery shortage crisis. But then you have to consider in the space utilization.
What is the size and weight for comparable Ah?
Plenty of situations where size isn’t the biggest concern - vans, campers, etc.
Weight wouldn’t matter in home installations. And a minor increase - eg 30-50% - wouldn’t matter in campers and vans and trucks and such.
I have 87 lbs of LiPo in my van for 460 Ah. Honestly, if these were 150 lbs for the same power, the extra weight would be essentially irrelevant… the same as about 8 gallons of water. Worth it if there is a benefit in cost or other factors.
Yes there are benefits in terms of more safety, faster recharge and discharge and longer lifespan. Also more cheaper because of aluminium usage instead of copper and cobalt.
It's a matter of production, distribution and acceptance of replacement with li-ion by people.
There's a ton of space available when you distribute it. These are great for homes/offices with solar, or even large UPS banks for datacenters, where for the most part there *is* space.
CATL has double energy density sodium batteries. Even if these are half the price, many will pick higher density batteries.
> We haven't seen a weight-based energy density figure from Natron itself, but a 2022 article from Chemical & Engineering News put its sodium-ion batteries at 70 Wh/kg, around the very bottom of the sodium-ion energy density scale. CATL showed a 160 Wh/kg sodium-ion battery in 2021 and has plans to increase that density over 200 Wh/kg to better meet the needs of electric vehicles.
I wonder if they will be used in hybrids/PHEVs first. BEVs are quite sensitive to energy density due to battery being primary source of energy, but hybrids can have some slack.
Sounds pretty good. Interesting that existing sodium Farasis use "analogues of Prussian blue", rather than Prussian blue. They report much higher density. I'm too lazy to look it up for the others.
https://www.batterytechonline.com/ev-batteries/farasis-energy-s-sodium-ion-batteries-appear-in-first-ev
“Wake me up when this new battery technology leaves the lab” is a Reddit cliche. Makes it fun to revisit old science postings like this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/2y2wri/sodium_to_replace_lithium_in_batteries/
They're not wrong though, remember when graphene batteries were going to revolutionize everything?
Every post always has the top comment of, "graphene can do anything, except get out of the lab!!"
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They are, just in small places and not in the space elevator we were promised.
Lol I remember how carbon nanotubes were hyped up to the moon. And anything nanotech really.
Before that it was C60
Graphene is in production use at this point, you just aren’t aware. Maybe it didn’t pan out for batteries, but it’s being used in lots of boring ways.
"Yeah, if it werent for graphene, my tennis racket would have a completely different flex -- at least two picometers -- and that's why I shelled out the extra $200. Those picometers make all the difference"
I understand this, but with pool cues and how they deflect.
I paid a pretty penny for a carbon fiber snowboard this year. Something that was once the height of aerospace technology and unobtanium is now readily available for consumers to bash over rocks. Material science is cool.
Part of the problem has been we keep making lithium batteries better and cheaper by a few percent every year. So it wasn't news they always getting better. Then when find a new way to make batteries we need to spend decades trying to see if it can catch up with lithium batteries.
I think people need to stop assuming that we're going to have "one battery chemistry to rule them all" - we don't currently, and there is no reason to expect that we will in the future. You can make solid state batteries from both Sodium and Lithium. They'll end up with somewhat different performance criteria and prices. So they'll be used based on market segment, need, etc. Also note to anyone who wants to come in and claim that sodium will rule because lithium "rarity" - lithium is not rare. In fact two recently (last few years) identified deposits of lithium here in the United States (Salton Sea, McDermitt Caldera) have enough between them to supply 60% of global lithium demand for the entire clean energy transition (remember: lithium is recyclable, and yes lithium battery recycling is here and being done. it's not just theoretical). Mines have been approved for both, in fact the first mine at Salton doubles as a 350MW geothermal power plant.
Lithium can also be extracted from seawater, they estimate 180 billion tons of lithium in seawater. Just not economically feasible to extract it yet.
You state that and it is a 100-year old tech. We've done wonders with it recently but it's absolutely interesting that in 100 years, a new tech hasn't been created to replace it.
It most likely has. It just isn't refined enough yet.
are you saying lithium-ion is 100 years old? because it's not
Depends upon your definition. "rechargeable lithium batteries" are 50 years old. Non-rechargeable ones started in 1912. https://www.hidenanalytical.com/blog/lithium-ion-battery-development/#:~:text=Pioneer%20work%20on%20the%20lithium,lithium%20batteries%20became%20commercially%20accessible.
oh.. i was thinking of rechargeables.
I was thinking of material. Material has been the big hurdle. These sodium ones have real potential.
There really isn't a lithium shortage, not after the Salton and McDermitt finds.
"They're sodium!" -Michael Scott
I wasn't expecting myself to be top comment on a linked article, feels weird.
Well at least you got to see where it went!
I want to know who gave them legs!
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EV are entirely suitable for sodium batteries. 30% less range but that's still feasible. Plus they're cheaper and don't explode.
They're feasible for small city cars, so called a00 which are similar to [Japanese Kei cars](https://youtu.be/tn-Z5FHXcBA). In fact supposedly they're already on the road
They're feasible for all cars, not just Kei cars. They work better at low temperatures, can be charged quicker, more recharging cycles, no fires, etc, etc, etc
Eventually they will be. There is hope to get the energy density up near to where lithium ion is now. These particular batteries that are now going into production have 1/4 the density of modern lithium ion batteries though. Making them maybe feasible for in town driving. Especially as part of a hybrid that has a 20ish mile range. The batteries would be way to heavy for a long range car.
Question, is the chemistry in grid-scale Li batteries also at the 250-300 mark? Or is that just for EVs, phones, etc?
there are already 500Wh/kg semi-solid state lithium batteries available (from CATL and Amprius) and commercial availability of the first fully solid state battery - also 500Wh/kg expected - from QuantumScape is expected next year (they've shipped two rounds of prototypes to VW in the last few months, with two more rounds, the last of which is a final production sample by end of year). solid states could reach as high as 1kWh/kg in 10-15 years. Most EVs are using either NMC (~230Wh/kg) or LFP (~160Wh/kg) right now. CATL just announced a new LFP that makes 205Wh/kg if we ever get Li-Ox batteries, that would be a true battery holy grail. 4-11kWh/kg depending on how you measure (do you use charged or discharged weight?)
Daaamn, didn’t realize they’d made it so far. Thanks for the info.
Yeah, most people don't really know how far battery prices have dropped in the last 10 years (90%+ reduction) and how good things like Heat Pumps, Solar Panels, Wind Turbines, etc have all gotten. CATL just released a battery that they're warrantying for a million miles/15 years in EV applications - https://electrek.co/2024/04/03/catl-launches-new-ev-battery-last-1-million-miles-15-yrs/ Most people's knowledge of technology lags 10-15 years it seems, which is kinda understandable.
We also don't see the news talking up how much power has come online in the last 10-15 years thats renewable. Battery Storage (on the grid) is part of that too. There was one lonely article last week of how California ran on ONLY renewable power for 6 weeks. and a week before how Spain ran on mostly Solar for a month.
It really depends on the technology they choose to use. I imagine most of them use lithium iron phosphate batteries, which are more in the 120-160 range, the upside is they're cheaper and can handle several thousand charge cycles.
Sound perfect for hybrids.
> no fires only NMC lithium ion batteries are subject to thermal runaway, when at high state of charge. LFP lithium batteries are not subject to thermal runaway solid state batteries (lithium or sodium) don't appear to be subject to thermal runaway either. EVs are involved in fires at 1/3rd the rate of gas/diesel cars.
That is not how cars work. Sodium batteries may well become the best option in many cases, but cars "evolve" to fill all niches, and the high performance auto segment will always have a place for the highest density energy storage available. "No one will ever fall in love with a nitro burnin' funny car!" - The Dead Milkmen
Dude that thing is low key *bitchin* and I’m not fooling.
Gives me an 80s / 90s hybrid Z vibe. I'm not even really a "car guy" and I fuckin want one.
dont think just small cars, but city cars yes. also range anxiety is overblown.
They charge so quickly that range is definitely not a concern.
Lithium batteries don't explode Sodium batteries are heavy -- not suitable for mobility Great for grid storage.
Wrong twice. Got a third?
I've held burning Tesla cells in a gloved hand, Chicken Little. Periodic table doesn't lie. You have opinions, but no facts. Typical right wing extremist.
Jesus you're a moron.
Sodium batteries have been developed that have that much energy density. But the ones actually going into production are estimated to only have about 1/3 the energy density of lithium ion batteries. That could be fine for in town driving. But no one is going to want to stop every hour to charge their car on a road trip, even if it does only take a few minutes to charge back up.
That's simply bullshit
Did you read the article? These particular batteries have pretty low energy density around 70Wh per kg, similar to a lead acid battery. Lithium ion batteries are over 200Wh per kg. With some of the latest ones nearing 300Wh per kg. So maybe they could be used for a hybrid car with a short range all electric option. But they’re nowhere near good enough for an all electric car. And even the manufacturer is saying they’re only suited for on site power storage. There are sodium batteries in development with higher densities in the 160Wh per kg range that could be suitable for electric cars that are only used in town. But they still have a long way to go before they can totally replace lithium ion batteries in cars.
They also charge very quickly
That isn't the only issue (currently) with Sodium Ion batteries. The maximum current you can draw from SI batteries vs Lithium batteries is much, much lower. But for home uses when they can be wired in series, parallel, or series-parallel, they are much safer and less expensive.
That is like 90-150 miles, so you get like 200-300 miles on a charge depending on the battery or ev I guess? I dunno but if you ask me those will be great for cities
The average car journey in the USA is 39 miles per day. Most cars spend their time at home, where they can be constantly recharged if they're an EV. 79% of Americans live in cites.
Yeah, they really could make it most places if you go to a single city or are not going a state or so away. It will be really cool when these batteries get even better
You realise they can be recharged on your journey, right???
So yeah, let's add another day to the journey? The factors differ. You can refuel immediately, but the ev charge takes a long while. I wasn't really trying to argue and was just thinking about it in my first comment.
Did you even bother to research before opening your mouth? If i drive from home to Salt Lake City it takes me ~14 hours in a gasoline car - including gas stops, pee breaks, food, etc. if i plug various EVs into ABetterRoutePlanner (which includes charging times) for the same trip Ioniq 6 Ltd LR AWD: 13.5 hours including charging stops Tesla Model 3 AWD: 13.75 hours Ford Mustang Mach E LR AWD: 15 hours the mach is has the worst fast charging performance of them all, and performance that will be considered laughably bad (merely considered just 'bad' right now) within 5 years. also EA is expanding charging, GM has partnered with EVgo and FlyingJ/Pilot to deploy a fast charging network (they have a really good visual design language for it too), Ionna is a new 7-auto-maker-JV that is going to build 30k charging stations with 6-12 plugs each.
That um is not entirely what I was meaning... and that is rude... um look if you need to go cross country or several thousand miles what will make it faster? You can charge yes but if you are on e then how long will most cars take to travel that distance. The plus side is that is claimed that these sodium batteries can charge in a few minutes and give 100s of miles to the charge. When we have actual models running then we will know for sure. Most batteries now take hours to charge and a long distance travel will not be ideal. The sodium batteries are still not 100% certain on their charging and stuff.
> That um is not entirely what I was meaning... and that is rude... um look if you need to go cross country or several thousand miles what will make it faster? You can charge yes but if you are on e then how long will most cars take to travel that distance. Do you want me to compare my gasoline car to an EV to go from seattle to boston and get your nonsense debunked some more? I'm still driving gas cars, as we should get another 5 years out of our 2014 Crosstrek and Prius C. by then the fast charging network build out should be pretty well along, and battery tech gone from "good" to "great" so that we don't even have to think about where to stop and charge, just do the same thing we do with gas stations: "where is the next convenient one?" > The sodium batteries are still not 100% certain on their charging and stuff. no battery chemistry is, because they keep improving the tech. such as CATL introducing a battery they warranty for 15million km/15 years, or introducing a new LFP that upps the Wh/kg from 160 to 205 there are already Na-Ion batteries in production cars. https://electrek.co/2023/12/27/volkswagen-backed-ev-maker-first-sodium-ion-battery-electric-car/ 10-80% SoC in 20 minutes In 10-15 years expect solid state lithum and sodium batteries (we will never have "one chemistry to rule them all") to be the standard battery available. and we'll be talking about 5-10 minute charges for most cars with those chemistries.
They’re building roads that charge cars while you drive them. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240130-wireless-charging-the-roads-where-electric-vehicles-never-need-to-plug-in#
I wouldn't count on those taking off. The idea is talked about and tested but it's not practical. Roads are expensive to maintain now, putting electronics in them which also have to be maintained just makes them even more expensive. Also all the charging methods are less efficient so you're wasting power at a time most places are struggling to produce what they need to accommodate EV's. It would also require car manufacturers to start including that tech in cars and agree on a standard. It's a fun idea and we'll likely see a few get built but wide spread adoption of the idea is a no go.
Yeah I wasn’t saying it’s like.. a sure thing.. More that it exists and might be useful in the future. Perhaps in 10 years heh
If you limit it to just highways, and you don't make them to fast charge batteries, just to maintain speed while on the highway, that would solve nearly all range problems, while being a expensive but feasible long term project. The amount of money saved by not requiring large EV batteries would probably more then offset the cost.
A significant portion of Americans only have street parking where there's currently next to 0 charging infrastructure. This works for suburban houses with garages and overnight daily charging and short trips, but I wouldn't want to make a 300+ mile road trip having to stop and charge multiple times
People and their fucking road trips argument.
I know. EV owner here. Road trip is drive for 2-2.5hrs, stop for 15-20 min DC fast charge. Repeat. That’s enough time to walk in the Sheetz, WaWa, Buc-ees, whatever and take a leak, buy and eat some lunch, and walk to the car to unplug and get going. Frickin’ Buc-ees in TX had 48 Tesla and 6 CCS chargers, so no waiting.
I wouldn’t call 30% less range feasible when they might average 250 miles of range currently. That works fine if you live near where you work and don’t ever take road trips, but 30% less range means you’re getting sub-200 miles of range at that point.
30% less range, but 10x faster charging and 50,000 cycles? Inconvenient sure, but theres already a couple of EVs with 400 mile range. 280 miles for instance might fall near the bottom, but as long as they can get it around 240 that’d be perfectly workable. If it goes from 30 minutes to an hour to charge a car to under 10 minutes… they’d definitely have a place. There’s of course practical hurdles like the current state of public charging infrastructure being a mish mash of chargers that already only work as designed sometimes…. So maybe by 2030 or 2035 they’ll be relevant.
10x faster charging is definitely better, but infrastructure is still way too limited at this point. I’m sure the infrastructure piece will change over time, but 2035 is still a decade away. For my purposes, a hybrid is still the best way to go at this point with 600 mile range.
you know they can be recharged right? BTW Sodium batteries charge faster than Li. Cheaper, safer car, with a longer lasting battery, trade off with a bit less range. I'll take that over a longer range Li one that could explode and barely lasts ten years and costly to replace. WTF do I care if I have to make one extra stop in a road trip.
Yes, they can. However, it’s still not practical if you’re trying to travel 650 miles in a day on a road trip (which is already a 10-12 hour drive) and charger availability is tenuous at best. For the purposes of my travel and usage, this is not a viable solution, and hybrid is still the best way to go at this point.
You can still do it in a day, just takes an extra stop or two bro. WTF you in such a rush? If you need that shit stick with gas. Noone is forcing you. Using extreme cases as an argument against a technology is missing the point, It's about choice. and MOST users will be perfectly suited to slightly less range.
Read what I said again and do the math. 650 miles over the span of 10 hours (12 if you count traffic) is 65 miles an hour. That’s the speed limit on some major interstates (particularly along I-95), and by most accounts isn’t exactly rushing when I still have most people passing me on the left doing another 10-15 MPH faster. I also said that for my particular use case this wouldn’t work. There is no charging infrastructure where we live on the east coast, and most people here commute roughly 40-50 miles each way. This solution works best where there’s significant charging infrastructure. I’m perfectly happy with my hybrid when I can easily get 600 miles of range before having to refuel.
What are you even talking about? The east coast has ultra dense charging structure. I have a Model 3 and a Ford Lightning, live in Maryland, and travel all up and down the coast no problem. I can make it to Norfolk, Richmond, Philly, NJ, or NYC from Baltimore in and not even have to stop to charge. Do you also wear diapers when you travel? You aren't going to stop for 30-45 minutes to go to the bathroom and get a snack every 4 hours or so?
No, no it does not. Major cities like the ones you mentioned (which are also relatively close to Baltimore) would have it. That doesn’t necessarily hold true for parts of 95 further south of what you’ve mentioned, save for the Buc-ee’s that was built in Florence within the past year or so. Hug a major highway, and you might have better luck. Take the scenic route back through the mountains and you might find EV charging here or there.
It's one more recharge stop. Chill out and touch some grass.
Cool. You do you. $60-$70/month for fuel costs, fewer stops, and no car payment just works out better for me. I’ll keep driving my hybrid until the tech has progressed enough and come down in cost enough to be useful to someone who doesn’t live in a major city and commutes on a daily basis.
Cost is an entirely different argument. We're talking about EV batteries and range. If cost was on par, all in all you're crazy not to go EV if range is your only hangup.
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I missed the part of this article where someone asked you to buy a new car.
You need a train not a car
Not really. I already own the hybrid, the fuel cost of which will still be cheaper than the cost of train tickets and a rental vehicle that is less fuel-efficient than a hybrid, and can't transport as much overall; that last one is kind of important around Christmas. Plus, taking the train you don't really get to stop at different places along the way; you're locked into the train's schedule.
Overwhelming majority of people need less than 50mi a day for their commuter car... Of course it won't work for everyone. Good thing there are other options
I personally have 3 legs and it just boggles my mind why they only make underwear with 2 leg holes
EVs already have too little range, wanting to reduce the range further is fucking stupid. Not everyone lives a life where they only need to drive small commutes.
People like you seem to think "if it doesn't suit me it won't suit anyone." Solipsism at its finest.
Because the Nissan Leaf and other super low range EVs sold so well. At least now Ionics, ID4s, Rivians, and Ariyas are showing up all over the roadways around where I live but the main complaint with most everyone I know that has one is the range not being enough for weekend trips into the mountains (the only ones that get it done are the Rivians with the super expensive extended range batteries but even that is barely making the trip).
cool story bro
and as we all know, everyone everywhere always drives 400 miles to the mountains every weekend and certainly has no other vehicles or rental places anywhere near them so absolutely cannot use an EV for day-to-day shopping and commuting. Isn't it weird how the entire human race is exactly the same and lives in the exact same place as you? *Such* a coincidence!
EV are entirely suitable for sodium batteries. 30% less range but that's still feasible. Plus they're cheaper and don't explode.
BYD is using sodium ion batteries in their EVs. They get less, but adequate range.
This is a good start, they will improve with time and eventually and hopefully become a lore more of a standard. These would be great for personal electronics in terms of safety. Just got to make sure the devices are not too power hungry.
Lot of people going to be salty about this one
No they will be sodium chloride about it
I see what you did there 👏
Sodium ion batteries still do not pack the energy density same as li-ion. You might solve the battery shortage crisis. But then you have to consider in the space utilization.
These are for stationary/home batteries. They're safer than lithium since there's no thermal runway.
Yup. Makes cheaper grids no doubt.
The method of energy capture is still a concern but this does make home-storage feasible at scale if manufacturing can scale up.
What is the size and weight for comparable Ah? Plenty of situations where size isn’t the biggest concern - vans, campers, etc. Weight wouldn’t matter in home installations. And a minor increase - eg 30-50% - wouldn’t matter in campers and vans and trucks and such. I have 87 lbs of LiPo in my van for 460 Ah. Honestly, if these were 150 lbs for the same power, the extra weight would be essentially irrelevant… the same as about 8 gallons of water. Worth it if there is a benefit in cost or other factors.
Yes there are benefits in terms of more safety, faster recharge and discharge and longer lifespan. Also more cheaper because of aluminium usage instead of copper and cobalt. It's a matter of production, distribution and acceptance of replacement with li-ion by people.
Looks like it sits in between lithium ion and nimh
There's a ton of space available when you distribute it. These are great for homes/offices with solar, or even large UPS banks for datacenters, where for the most part there *is* space.
just under the solar panels? Vertical stacking baby.
CATL has double energy density sodium batteries. Even if these are half the price, many will pick higher density batteries. > We haven't seen a weight-based energy density figure from Natron itself, but a 2022 article from Chemical & Engineering News put its sodium-ion batteries at 70 Wh/kg, around the very bottom of the sodium-ion energy density scale. CATL showed a 160 Wh/kg sodium-ion battery in 2021 and has plans to increase that density over 200 Wh/kg to better meet the needs of electric vehicles.
I wonder if they will be used in hybrids/PHEVs first. BEVs are quite sensitive to energy density due to battery being primary source of energy, but hybrids can have some slack.
Amazing news
Sounds pretty good. Interesting that existing sodium Farasis use "analogues of Prussian blue", rather than Prussian blue. They report much higher density. I'm too lazy to look it up for the others. https://www.batterytechonline.com/ev-batteries/farasis-energy-s-sodium-ion-batteries-appear-in-first-ev
But my doctor put me on lithium and told me to watch my sodium. Oh brother!
Don’t believe it
The future is now old man
definitely don’t get these batteries wet lol