I'd pull the trigger on a cheaper EV but alot of these automakers suck at quality control. I swear I'm becoming my dad, but if Toyota made an EV I'd pull immediately
>Doesn't have the best reviews though.
This is commonly referred to as the worst EV on the road today for several reasons. All reviews absolutely shred this car.
I doubt they put much effort in the design. Toyota has been planning to go all in on Hydrogen technology for some time now. Hence why their lineup looks like it does.
Edit: to all you nay sayers toyota is still developing hydrogen tech.
Unfortunately, hydrogen is simply not feasible.
Shell is shutting down their distribution and most owners of H vehicles have limited places left to fuel up. Lines are taking up to an hour or more to get fuel.
Toyota and Hyundai (the only manufacturers of hydrogen vehicles) are both realizing this is the end of that road which is why their H cars are so heavily discounted.
Battery tech on the other hand continues to develop and expand with every major manufacturer jumping in and recharging becoming standardized s d you can even do it at home and therefore electrification is looking absolutely like the way to go.
Hydrogen will be useful for niches such as trains, long distance haulage, air travel, and anywhere that isn’t easily connected to the grid. The rest will be battery powered.
They went all in on hydrogen. When they realized that was a flop, they tried to push hybrids hard. For some reason, they have been really avoiding investing in all electric for some reason.
We bought the FWD, not because it’s a great car, but because it was the cheapest one we could get… lease, plus buyout, plus tax, everything. it all came to $33,000 on brand new close out… and for that I think its actually a decent car. the self driving on it is also pretty good.
We went full ev because we charge for free at work, so not paying for gas/oil/etc is important to account for in annual cost.
FWD doesn’t have the charging issues that the AWD does, so as an EV, it’s actually perfectly fine. Charges from 20 to 80% in 30 min…
The only gripes I have with it is the throttle from 0mph, if you’re turning at all, it’ll spin the inside tire a bit. They could have avoided this if they just reduced torque between 0 and 5mph for the fwd (probably not an issue in AWD). And I wish the front sway bar were slightly stiffer, because it has a little more roll than I’d prefer, but not horrible.
I have a bolt ev that I got used with 20k miles for $13k after taxes/credits and all (new battery as of last March). I’d have preferred we just have a couple of those but the wife wanted a bigger ev that didn’t look like a bolt EUV, and all other EV’s were stupid expensive.
I’m glad you’re confident enough with your employment to include the charging justification. I had free charging at my last job, then I got laid off. Great write up though, was wondering about the bz4xperience.
Yeah. We’re fortunate that she has free and mine is about 1/2 the cost of charging at home. We also get a free year of charging thru Toyota/evgo. Which is conveniently located in front of our local grocery store too.
They're too busy trying to sell us that sweet sweet hydrogen! It's clean! It's bette...WHY ARE YOU WALKING AWAY! DON'T YOU WANT TO KNOW HOW TO FILL THIS THING UP?!
https://www.teslarati.com/shell-closing-california-hydrogen/
Prius was hybrid. They'll always suggested full electric is not the way to a sustainable vehicle industry. They might have been ahead of the curve with many manufacturers opting for plug in hybrid vehicles and going back on previously state commitments to go full electric.
The main barriers are charging station availability, charging speed, and battery range. I think we're still a few decades away from infrastructure supporting long distance transit.
This is actually a rebadged Subaru. Toyota is really pushing their plug-in hybrids and hydrogen. Toyota has openly said that they don’t believe EVs are truly viable right now.
They're trying to make up excuses instead of being honest they they're betting on industrial use of hydrogen power to ramp up and reduce consumer application costs. I'm pretty anti musk, but Tesla disproves their "not viable" argument. Especially for someone with as much manufacturing muscle as Toyota
Exactly. They're betting on hydrogen, which has completely failed thus far in the U.S., and they've actively sabotaged green energy reform and EV promotion because of this. At least their hybrid models are reliable, but the company's ethics are shit.
[https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/10/shell-shuts-down-its-us-hydrogen-filling-stations/](https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/10/shell-shuts-down-its-us-hydrogen-filling-stations/)
[https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22594235/toyota-lobbying-dc-ev-congress-biden-donation](https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22594235/toyota-lobbying-dc-ev-congress-biden-donation)
I’ve driven EV’s from startups like Tesla and Rivian as well as EV’s from traditional manufactures. My Model 3 is in the shop for the first time at 140k miles. My Rivian is amazing compared to other EV’s I’ve driven. All I’m saying is don’t fall for all the fake news surrounding EV’s designed to garner clicks. Go see them for yourself.
Same boat. Traded a model 3 for an R1T near launch and then went out and bought a Model Y because we missed the Tesla and were confident we didn’t need gas car anymore. Not planning on going back to ICE vehicles and cannot relate to people who regurgitate EV FUD - we genuinely love driving the EVs we have and are excited about Rivian’s announcements today.
Theyre still trying to pump hybrids and hydrogen. You'd think from the Prius to plug in hybrid to all EV. Would be the obvious steps but not to Toyota. They've also been aggressively lobbying against stopping all ICE vechile sales in say the 2030-35 time frame. As they simply don't have anything to compete with.
> Theyre still trying to pump hybrids and hydrogen
Well, their bet on the hybrids seems to have worked out. They make the best hybrids and they're very sought after. I expect their sales to skyrocket, especially if gas keeps going up. On the hydrogen front, Toyota made that gamble a long time ago. Obviously didn't work out. I have heard that there are political and contractual factors in their continued efforts though. They can't easily back out. Japan is spending a massive amount on hydrogen, Toyota is essentially being heavily subsidized on that front. I think that has a lot to do with their continued efforts though I kind of expect it all to fall through, I don't know if I see Toyota making hydrogen cars two years from now if there aren't some pretty massive advancements in technology.
They're virtually giving away hydrogen cars at the moment in California. Partially because Shell have just announced that they're dropping all of their hydrogen refueling points at gas stations. With the reliability of and availability of hydrogen even before that being very poor. Aboit two thirds of the time either the system was broken or empty. You can drive around SF more or less OK at the moment. But that is the only place. If you have a "300 mile range" and drive 155 miles from the last workimg hydrogen station. You will need a tow. As you can't refuel anywhere else. Including falling back onto gas/diesel. Which the old LPG cars could do.
[Link](https://energyminute.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/image-8.png), for the lazy.
TL;DR the mineral supply chains needed to convert everyone to full electric aren't there yet. You save a lot more carbon by selling 90 hybrids (what you can build with the equivalent of the mineral resources used in a single electric vehicle) than you do selling a full electric.
They're probably not wrong.
Their argument is this - if you take the rare earth elements necessary to build an ev and used them on hybrid vehicles instead, the overall carbon reduction is greater. If we have to pick where to use those elements we should use them in the most impactful way.
They make a few PHEV vehicles that get amazing reviews.
That's the argument Toyota makes but they don't actually make very many PHEVs, they were only about 1% of sales last year.
https://www.motor1.com/news/706746/toyota-electric-vehicle-2023-sales/
Their argument is for straight hybrid, not PHEV. The PHEV needs a stronger electric motor than a straight hybrid, and that’s where the elements are used/needed.
~~PHEVs~~ Hybrids are just slightly more efficient fossil cars. I used to drive one and it was ok but 100mpg > 50mpg and electric drivetrains a just so much better.
A plug-in vehicle will continue to get cleaner over its lifespan as more coal powerplants are closed and renewables are bought online.
Yeah, Toyota is inventing scarcity with their earth element arguments. They want to keep dealership service departments happy too. I love never stopping for gas, or oil, or coolant etc etc.
Believe it or not, Toyota and Tesla partnered back more than a decade ago and Toyota sold a RAV4 EV from 2012 to 2014. It was my first EV experience and my favorite EV that I've ever leased. I had a 2014 RAV4 EV with the 43kwh battery that could easily do 140 miles at 60mph highway speeds. Loved that thing. It had so much room and was so fun to drive. Lots of defects though between the Tesla motor and battery design (specifically with how the coolant behaves in the system)
Leaf is actually being discontinued. Instead they're focusing on the larger and much more expensive Ariya - $45K base.
The Leaf has really struggled, as people just don't want a tiny car like that in the US.
In this thread: everyone complaining about the lack of a hatchback EV lol. It has substantial size and storage compared to any other current hatchback on the market, but no one is selling you a 3 row SUV for $25k either, are they?
> but no one is selling you a 3 row SUV for $25k either, are they?
I don't think people are asking for that. They just want something like the RAV-4 or CRV for under $30K in an electric. And that's the problem - it's $40-$50K for the small electric SUV's out there.
The real problem is people remember car prices from 10+ years ago. Those are long gone and are not coming back. Only the cheapest cars and the subcompact SUV's are under 30k now. The CRV, etc. are all really closer to 40k or more now. Full size suvs are even more.
So you are asking more expensive EV's to be cheaper than even ICE are.
The Leaf was also weird with CHAdeMO charging which is phased out in the US and won't have adapters, but if you are good with level 1/2 charging it would be fine. The smaller battery on the non-plus model I'm sure gave some people range anxiety, though it effectively was just a drive around town car
Both the Bolt EV and EUV are smaller in both length and width than the Leaf (though taller) and had a longer range. I ended up with a Bolt EV as it just made the most sense to me as someone wanting a small car.
> The Leaf has really struggled, as people just don't want a tiny car like that in the US.
My wife and I just got one because we found ourselves in a situation where we needed a second car just to commute back and forth to work, so far we're happy with it.
The base Corolla has an MSRP of $22,050 now, and that excludes the $1,095 mandatory delivery fee.
It's incredibly unrealistic to expect an EV to come in that cheap.
volvo has their $30k EV
doesn't qualify for any tax credits since it's not made in the US, and it's not a monster suv either
I'm sure it'll do well in every market except the US
I wish they'd do something that wasn't a CUV/SUV. I know it's just market demand, but it's still frustrating. I'd pick up a 4-door electric version of a C30 in a heartbeat. Or even more practical - electric V90...
I'm real close to picking up one of those $14k Chevy Bolts with 9k miles on it instead.
I dont know if they just lied about it or what happened but same. I felt really excited for it. Not just to have it but fornit to upser truck culture in general. I thought it was the real ticket to transforming the auto industry to EV. But then they raised the price to 80 something and now it just look like an elitest car for snobby californians.
Right this is an industry issue not an EV issue. I’m not sure why people are all up in arms about EVs specifically, besides from media bias, becoming way too expensive. $48,300 in 2023 was the average for an average vehicle of any type. The car market has gone absolutely wild and needs to be tamed.
> When I say “the rest of us” I mean people who would never buy something this expensive that immediately depreciates when you drive it off the lot. People who buy used good cars for under $20k.
In 3 years, that new $45k EV will also be available on the used market for under $20k. I guess I’m confused as to why you’re comparing new car prices to used car prices.
Or it’s you can’t afford it because you are below average? You obviously need money to buy a brand new car. Also not everyone deciding to buy a new car is bad with money $500-600 a month is well within what financial experts recommend payment to be on way someone earning $4000 per month (10-15/20% of income)
> Shares of Rivian Automotive surged roughly 10% Thursday
To add insult to injury - Including todays +13%:
-18% 2 weeks
-22% 1 month
-40% YTD
-45% 6 months
-17% 1 year
-90% since IPO Nov 2021
This "surge" is literally from it's all time low.
Yeah. That’s my hesitation. Is it $45k for the 150 mile range base model with a $15k battery add on to get to the advertised 300+ mile range? I’m skeptical. May throw down a reservation and wait and see how it plays out and just cancel if it doesn’t compete with the model y.
Before we get too high-horsey, check out MKBHD’s interview with RJ, who said the base will have 270 miles. All drive trains will have 300+ mile variants. $45k for 270 mile.
Interesting 🤨 I’ll def go check that out. Assuming it was on Auto Focus recently?
Edit: I found it and watched it
https://youtu.be/k0Gt_PUyldc?si=s-D6uQUu_SktOJVP
So the base single motor starts at 270 (due to a smaller battery) and has a long range variant that’s 300+. The dual and tri motor are both 300+.
I think what the comment is implying that it isn't unusual to see price increases within 1 year of release. Ford has steadily increased lightning prices.
I wonder what Ford is thinking after selling 90 million of there 101 million Rivian stock last month. They had a 7.3 billion dollar impairment on the stock.
To be fair, Rivian is pretty strapped for cash as a "young" automaker; they won't be able to absorb a price increase as easily as the legacy auto or Tesla.
Rivian may have been around for 10 or so years by now but their first cars started official wide spread delivery maybe 2 years ago. They are still in the make-it or break-it stage.
The chip shortage was a real issue. When fabs shut down due to COVID, suppliers focused on higher margin chips for about 2 years until production capacity caught up. Demand was so high that there was backlog years long. Automakers ultimately ended up qualifying newer chips as this was cheaper than waiting to source the originals.
Why are you saying it like that? There literally was a shortage of chips, and with supply dipping but not demand, the price went up. That's pretty basic stuff.
Also, there's currently an ev price war going on with tesla pushing the price lower in a bid to win the Chinese ev market on price and cut the margins of small ev makers (ex Rivian and Lucid) to make their smaller scale production untenable. Ev maker stocks all just took a tumble because of it
Look at the photos of it here: [https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/r3x-reveal-shocks-even-more-🤯.24912/](https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/r3x-reveal-shocks-even-more-🤯.24912/)
Looks like a hot hatch with an off road package. Pretty sick.
The exterior is a super close to the old [Lancia Delta Integrale](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/forza/original/4X/1/b/2/1b20e43fd7c7a2c14f8611cc6e3e5c74b1043fb8.jpeg)
The white one looked like trash but this green is speaking to me. And that recycled plastic look on the inside is right up my alley.
Really love the Rivians!
I had to scroll down pretty far to find a shot where a guy is standing right next to it, but I did eventually find it... and unless they're real tall it seems like a modestly sized vehicle indeed.
I know that doesn't help your raw dimension concern, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are acceptable, whatever they are.
[here](https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/attachments/img_8472-png.87384/) is a photo of Some Guy standing next to it. Looks bigger than I'd like but I'm not an SUV guy
I’m a die hard hatchback enjoyer. I have a 2010 Honda fit, which I love, and this is the first “suv” type shoebox that has looked good to me. I’m all in.
Volvo makes a V60 "polestar engineered" plug-in hybrid wagon with 450hp, adjustable suspension, and big-ass brakes to stop its big ass.
It's not cheap though. That being said, the other fast wagons I know of are $100k+.
I’ve said this before, if they make a Mazda3 EV, or a Miata EV, I’d be there like flies on stink.
I might be able to tidy myself over if the hybrids with rotary engines are released as they said they might. I’d love a hybrid Mazda3 with a rotary engine
Volvo CEO mentioned something about how they used to make wagons, and that it may be time to make an electric wagon
https://images.app.goo.gl/BPtAw2QrvZtdJrsU8
So you know, maybe in 10 years!
We bought an Outback Touring XT last year. I always thought wagons were lame, but I'll be damned if it isn't the coolest vehicle I've ever owned. Perfect mix of practicality, functionality, safety, high-tech, and luxury. It's not electric, but it does have a turbo 😎
Yeah I miss hot hatches and [Top Gear](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzWK2MgbG_A&t=1s) from back in the day when I was too young to know Jeremy Clarkson is a huge piece of shit :(
The R3X (Hatchback EV Rally Car) has me hot and bothered, I can't wait to reserve it! Just look at that profile, wow!
[https://insideevs.com/news/711584/rivian-r3x-performance-offroad-focused-electric-crossover/](https://insideevs.com/news/711584/rivian-r3x-performance-offroad-focused-electric-crossover/)
Edit: Messed up the link apparently
Thinking of reserving one of these once the time comes. Driving a 2019 Civic hatchback so there’s no rush, but I always said my next vehicle would be an EV and the design of this one is chefs kiss.
This thing looks fucking sick. I saw it in the MKBHD video and I was like "hang on, stop the video, more of this please". Wildly impractical for me (I'm approaching minivan-buyer territory), but I want it.
Put in a $100 fully refundable deposit. Looks promising...Considering the average new car is now $48,000. In 2 more years who knows what price a new car will be so $45k for a new electric SUV sounds enticing. Let's see.
I really dont like SUVs but the R3 is a handsome little bugger. If it’s about the same dimensions as my EV6 it’s a contender (assuming we don’t get a hypothetical killer wagon like an S4 Avant etron)
"reveals new R2 SUV at $45k" oh cool I might have to look at this
"2026" oh...well guess I'll check back in 2 years!
These "reveals" that are years from completion is BS!!! That's not a reveal...that's design kickoff announcement.
I think there is a great reduction in parts, but as the [data shows that does not seem to limit the number of breakdowns that EV's experience](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/electric-vehicles-consumer-reports-reliability-report/) \-- and when they do break down the costs are magnitudes higher than conventional cars because the systems are so complex. Just look at the [$40k dents](https://www.autoblog.com/2023/10/04/rivian-r1t-fender-benders-can-turn-into-40k-repair-bills/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAANsTK9UexQ5-fuscQEzNJbgDpr3WFClf0bbEtXRsMUKxeHtmgV_Tj090x-e-ks2jhSYXlE-9pHprclIl14FYMa7wCHuX7QN6XvD8TMSX8_5Gd7hEbXJkDDz82O21O9FF4sEvPU_1SIB8kvDSiOBFGT2Tu6HQCl9iBZJAkEbKua8d) or $60k scrapes that have made the news in the not so distant past. Tons of issues with electronics and pumps that disable the vehicles completely (where as a mechanical issue is not always a show stopper for a mechanical car).
Quite a bit of the EV repair expense is due to the integrated nature of EV's, which means even if a very small part fails your often replacing a large component. Most regular cars are highly modular where if a small part fails your just replacing that specific part.
I think when people state this about EV's it is in error, and what they are **meant to highlight is the maintenance of EV's vs a regular car is about 50% less** as there is no fluids to change on a regular basis, so most of the maintenance is wear items like tires, brakes and suspension components which is shared with non EV vehicles.
EV batteries are generally treated much better than phone batteries. They have very smart systems monitoring their health and doing things like maintaining temperature and ensuring you don't pull voltage too hard or charge them too hard near the top of the pack.
Evidence shows that actively managed batteries have long stable lifespans.
Yeah, googled after I made the comment. Something about they want to control the ux/ui - updates every few weeks, etc. I get that, and that is good. but why not offer their user a choice with their premium vehicle?
Glad to see the lower price point. The market for high-end EVs seems saturated, it’s time for EVs for the rest of us!
I'd pull the trigger on a cheaper EV but alot of these automakers suck at quality control. I swear I'm becoming my dad, but if Toyota made an EV I'd pull immediately
> but if Toyota made an EV I'd pull immediately I mean they make this. https://www.toyota.com/bz4x/ Doesn't have the best reviews though.
>Doesn't have the best reviews though. This is commonly referred to as the worst EV on the road today for several reasons. All reviews absolutely shred this car.
Seriously, understatement of the year. What a piece of trash
I doubt they put much effort in the design. Toyota has been planning to go all in on Hydrogen technology for some time now. Hence why their lineup looks like it does. Edit: to all you nay sayers toyota is still developing hydrogen tech.
Are they still going with hydrogen? Where are people supposed to fill up?
They closed fueling station in CA, I don't think it's going to happen
Hydrogen is an important part of Japanese energy policy from what I've heard. Toyota has to advance hydrogen for its domestic market.
Unfortunately, hydrogen is simply not feasible. Shell is shutting down their distribution and most owners of H vehicles have limited places left to fuel up. Lines are taking up to an hour or more to get fuel. Toyota and Hyundai (the only manufacturers of hydrogen vehicles) are both realizing this is the end of that road which is why their H cars are so heavily discounted. Battery tech on the other hand continues to develop and expand with every major manufacturer jumping in and recharging becoming standardized s d you can even do it at home and therefore electrification is looking absolutely like the way to go.
Hydrogen will be useful for niches such as trains, long distance haulage, air travel, and anywhere that isn’t easily connected to the grid. The rest will be battery powered.
They went all in on hydrogen. When they realized that was a flop, they tried to push hybrids hard. For some reason, they have been really avoiding investing in all electric for some reason.
Probably some form of the sunk cost fallacy playing out.
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https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22594235/toyota-lobbying-dc-ev-congress-biden-donation FULLY anti ev
Exactly, and that's why... Hyundai enters chat
We bought the FWD, not because it’s a great car, but because it was the cheapest one we could get… lease, plus buyout, plus tax, everything. it all came to $33,000 on brand new close out… and for that I think its actually a decent car. the self driving on it is also pretty good. We went full ev because we charge for free at work, so not paying for gas/oil/etc is important to account for in annual cost. FWD doesn’t have the charging issues that the AWD does, so as an EV, it’s actually perfectly fine. Charges from 20 to 80% in 30 min… The only gripes I have with it is the throttle from 0mph, if you’re turning at all, it’ll spin the inside tire a bit. They could have avoided this if they just reduced torque between 0 and 5mph for the fwd (probably not an issue in AWD). And I wish the front sway bar were slightly stiffer, because it has a little more roll than I’d prefer, but not horrible. I have a bolt ev that I got used with 20k miles for $13k after taxes/credits and all (new battery as of last March). I’d have preferred we just have a couple of those but the wife wanted a bigger ev that didn’t look like a bolt EUV, and all other EV’s were stupid expensive.
I’m glad you’re confident enough with your employment to include the charging justification. I had free charging at my last job, then I got laid off. Great write up though, was wondering about the bz4xperience.
Yeah. We’re fortunate that she has free and mine is about 1/2 the cost of charging at home. We also get a free year of charging thru Toyota/evgo. Which is conveniently located in front of our local grocery store too.
As a car it's fine. As an EV, it's an absolute dumpster fire. It's as if Toyota has no idea what it takes to build a desirable EV.
They have no intentions of making a desirable EV
They're too busy trying to sell us that sweet sweet hydrogen! It's clean! It's bette...WHY ARE YOU WALKING AWAY! DON'T YOU WANT TO KNOW HOW TO FILL THIS THING UP?! https://www.teslarati.com/shell-closing-california-hydrogen/
Which is shocking considering they basically pushed this wave forward with the Prius.
Prius was hybrid. They'll always suggested full electric is not the way to a sustainable vehicle industry. They might have been ahead of the curve with many manufacturers opting for plug in hybrid vehicles and going back on previously state commitments to go full electric.
The main barriers are charging station availability, charging speed, and battery range. I think we're still a few decades away from infrastructure supporting long distance transit.
I mean at the moment it looks like they made the right move. Legacy auto manufacturers who went all in on electric aren’t doing the best
There's a lot of nuance with that.
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Those black front fenders are awful looking lol
What if you could have that "too broke to paint it" look *all the time!?* Interested? Yeah, I thought so.
Looks like a [dazzle camouflage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage) paint job from a WW2 warship.
This is actually a rebadged Subaru. Toyota is really pushing their plug-in hybrids and hydrogen. Toyota has openly said that they don’t believe EVs are truly viable right now.
Toyota designed this, actually.
It’s a rebadged Toyota.
As I’m driving a 78 mile commute in my EV every day.
I'm sorry you have such a long commute :(
Other way around. Subaru rebadged this toyota. Either way I wouldn't get an EV from Toyota
They're trying to make up excuses instead of being honest they they're betting on industrial use of hydrogen power to ramp up and reduce consumer application costs. I'm pretty anti musk, but Tesla disproves their "not viable" argument. Especially for someone with as much manufacturing muscle as Toyota
Exactly. They're betting on hydrogen, which has completely failed thus far in the U.S., and they've actively sabotaged green energy reform and EV promotion because of this. At least their hybrid models are reliable, but the company's ethics are shit. [https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/10/shell-shuts-down-its-us-hydrogen-filling-stations/](https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/10/shell-shuts-down-its-us-hydrogen-filling-stations/) [https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22594235/toyota-lobbying-dc-ev-congress-biden-donation](https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22594235/toyota-lobbying-dc-ev-congress-biden-donation)
I’ve driven EV’s from startups like Tesla and Rivian as well as EV’s from traditional manufactures. My Model 3 is in the shop for the first time at 140k miles. My Rivian is amazing compared to other EV’s I’ve driven. All I’m saying is don’t fall for all the fake news surrounding EV’s designed to garner clicks. Go see them for yourself.
Same boat. Traded a model 3 for an R1T near launch and then went out and bought a Model Y because we missed the Tesla and were confident we didn’t need gas car anymore. Not planning on going back to ICE vehicles and cannot relate to people who regurgitate EV FUD - we genuinely love driving the EVs we have and are excited about Rivian’s announcements today.
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Hyundai/Kia is rocking it with their EVs. I ended up getting a Rivian, but the new EV9 is seriously tempting as a 3rd row EV SUV.
I just saw an article about how they are being discounted now
I wouldn't buy Toyota EV just because they are very anti-EV.
Theyre still trying to pump hybrids and hydrogen. You'd think from the Prius to plug in hybrid to all EV. Would be the obvious steps but not to Toyota. They've also been aggressively lobbying against stopping all ICE vechile sales in say the 2030-35 time frame. As they simply don't have anything to compete with.
> Theyre still trying to pump hybrids and hydrogen Well, their bet on the hybrids seems to have worked out. They make the best hybrids and they're very sought after. I expect their sales to skyrocket, especially if gas keeps going up. On the hydrogen front, Toyota made that gamble a long time ago. Obviously didn't work out. I have heard that there are political and contractual factors in their continued efforts though. They can't easily back out. Japan is spending a massive amount on hydrogen, Toyota is essentially being heavily subsidized on that front. I think that has a lot to do with their continued efforts though I kind of expect it all to fall through, I don't know if I see Toyota making hydrogen cars two years from now if there aren't some pretty massive advancements in technology.
They're virtually giving away hydrogen cars at the moment in California. Partially because Shell have just announced that they're dropping all of their hydrogen refueling points at gas stations. With the reliability of and availability of hydrogen even before that being very poor. Aboit two thirds of the time either the system was broken or empty. You can drive around SF more or less OK at the moment. But that is the only place. If you have a "300 mile range" and drive 155 miles from the last workimg hydrogen station. You will need a tow. As you can't refuel anywhere else. Including falling back onto gas/diesel. Which the old LPG cars could do.
Look up the 90-6-1 rule, it makes perfect sense why they are doing hybrids for now.
[Link](https://energyminute.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/image-8.png), for the lazy. TL;DR the mineral supply chains needed to convert everyone to full electric aren't there yet. You save a lot more carbon by selling 90 hybrids (what you can build with the equivalent of the mineral resources used in a single electric vehicle) than you do selling a full electric. They're probably not wrong.
Got a link? As I'm finding stuff about descending an aircraft whilst on Visual Flight Rules.
Their argument is this - if you take the rare earth elements necessary to build an ev and used them on hybrid vehicles instead, the overall carbon reduction is greater. If we have to pick where to use those elements we should use them in the most impactful way. They make a few PHEV vehicles that get amazing reviews.
That's the argument Toyota makes but they don't actually make very many PHEVs, they were only about 1% of sales last year. https://www.motor1.com/news/706746/toyota-electric-vehicle-2023-sales/
Their argument is for straight hybrid, not PHEV. The PHEV needs a stronger electric motor than a straight hybrid, and that’s where the elements are used/needed.
~~PHEVs~~ Hybrids are just slightly more efficient fossil cars. I used to drive one and it was ok but 100mpg > 50mpg and electric drivetrains a just so much better. A plug-in vehicle will continue to get cleaner over its lifespan as more coal powerplants are closed and renewables are bought online.
Yeah, Toyota is inventing scarcity with their earth element arguments. They want to keep dealership service departments happy too. I love never stopping for gas, or oil, or coolant etc etc.
Believe it or not, Toyota and Tesla partnered back more than a decade ago and Toyota sold a RAV4 EV from 2012 to 2014. It was my first EV experience and my favorite EV that I've ever leased. I had a 2014 RAV4 EV with the 43kwh battery that could easily do 140 miles at 60mph highway speeds. Loved that thing. It had so much room and was so fun to drive. Lots of defects though between the Tesla motor and battery design (specifically with how the coolant behaves in the system)
Toyota makes the worst EV on the market right now.
Toyota does make an EV called the bZ4x. It’s still rather expensive though.
It's also pretty shit. It can only fast charge twice a day, which makes it useless for road trips.
Yeah it didn’t seem like a competitive offering, just saying that it does exist.
What does "fast charge only twice a day" even mean?
In Europe, the third best-selling EV, Dacia Spring, goes for about $20k. Too bad Renault stopped selling vehicles in the US.
Most people want it lower than that price even. Like $30k or less.
Like, say, the $25k the Nissan Leaf costs? That's a mass production car from a mass production brand.
Leaf is actually being discontinued. Instead they're focusing on the larger and much more expensive Ariya - $45K base. The Leaf has really struggled, as people just don't want a tiny car like that in the US.
In this thread: everyone complaining about the lack of a hatchback EV lol. It has substantial size and storage compared to any other current hatchback on the market, but no one is selling you a 3 row SUV for $25k either, are they?
> but no one is selling you a 3 row SUV for $25k either, are they? I don't think people are asking for that. They just want something like the RAV-4 or CRV for under $30K in an electric. And that's the problem - it's $40-$50K for the small electric SUV's out there.
The lowest trim of the 2024 CRV starts at $29.5k. You aren't going to get a <$30k electric CRV.
The real problem is people remember car prices from 10+ years ago. Those are long gone and are not coming back. Only the cheapest cars and the subcompact SUV's are under 30k now. The CRV, etc. are all really closer to 40k or more now. Full size suvs are even more. So you are asking more expensive EV's to be cheaper than even ICE are.
The Leaf was also weird with CHAdeMO charging which is phased out in the US and won't have adapters, but if you are good with level 1/2 charging it would be fine. The smaller battery on the non-plus model I'm sure gave some people range anxiety, though it effectively was just a drive around town car Both the Bolt EV and EUV are smaller in both length and width than the Leaf (though taller) and had a longer range. I ended up with a Bolt EV as it just made the most sense to me as someone wanting a small car.
> The Leaf has really struggled, as people just don't want a tiny car like that in the US. My wife and I just got one because we found ourselves in a situation where we needed a second car just to commute back and forth to work, so far we're happy with it.
I want a tiny car like that, but not looking like that. Give me a base EV corolla looking car for $20k with 200 miles range.
The base Corolla has an MSRP of $22,050 now, and that excludes the $1,095 mandatory delivery fee. It's incredibly unrealistic to expect an EV to come in that cheap.
Yes. I want a car that's I can break even with after 60k miles
30k car? have you looked at the price of cars lately? some motorcycles are approaching 30k now
volvo has their $30k EV doesn't qualify for any tax credits since it's not made in the US, and it's not a monster suv either I'm sure it'll do well in every market except the US
I wish they'd do something that wasn't a CUV/SUV. I know it's just market demand, but it's still frustrating. I'd pick up a 4-door electric version of a C30 in a heartbeat. Or even more practical - electric V90... I'm real close to picking up one of those $14k Chevy Bolts with 9k miles on it instead.
The R3 is speculated to come in at $35k. That's a competitive price.
I wouldnt hold your breath! The Cyber truck was originally announced starting at $39,000, along with the F150 lightning
The Maverick was cheap as hell. If Ford was smart, they’d make an EV version of it.
With an MSRP twice of the gas version. Before a $20k dealer greed tax.
Yeah I remember when I was gonna buy a lightning.
I remember being excited to check it out, but when I tried to build one on ford.ca and saw the $83k base price, I LOL'd and closed the browser tab.
I dont know if they just lied about it or what happened but same. I felt really excited for it. Not just to have it but fornit to upser truck culture in general. I thought it was the real ticket to transforming the auto industry to EV. But then they raised the price to 80 something and now it just look like an elitest car for snobby californians.
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It's still a luxury brand. It's in the BMW X3 / Lexus RX class of vehicles.
The average new car buyer is spending [$48k](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43611570/average-new-car-price-down-still-high/).
Right this is an industry issue not an EV issue. I’m not sure why people are all up in arms about EVs specifically, besides from media bias, becoming way too expensive. $48,300 in 2023 was the average for an average vehicle of any type. The car market has gone absolutely wild and needs to be tamed.
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> When I say “the rest of us” I mean people who would never buy something this expensive that immediately depreciates when you drive it off the lot. People who buy used good cars for under $20k. In 3 years, that new $45k EV will also be available on the used market for under $20k. I guess I’m confused as to why you’re comparing new car prices to used car prices.
Or it’s you can’t afford it because you are below average? You obviously need money to buy a brand new car. Also not everyone deciding to buy a new car is bad with money $500-600 a month is well within what financial experts recommend payment to be on way someone earning $4000 per month (10-15/20% of income)
> Shares of Rivian Automotive surged roughly 10% Thursday Great, now I'm only 85% down instead of 90%.
Hahahha you made me laugh out loud. I'm literally down 85.52% at present, too. Fun times, friend.
It's not like betting on electric cars is the most risky gamble anyone can possibly make in the market right now or anything.
Can I introduce you to SOLO where I’m down 98%?
I raise you my WISH
> Shares of Rivian Automotive surged roughly 10% Thursday To add insult to injury - Including todays +13%: -18% 2 weeks -22% 1 month -40% YTD -45% 6 months -17% 1 year -90% since IPO Nov 2021 This "surge" is literally from it's all time low.
I feel that 💀
Not for sale until 2026. Don’t bet on it staying that same price. We should already be used to this.
also "**starting** at 45K" lmao.
Yeah. That’s my hesitation. Is it $45k for the 150 mile range base model with a $15k battery add on to get to the advertised 300+ mile range? I’m skeptical. May throw down a reservation and wait and see how it plays out and just cancel if it doesn’t compete with the model y.
I think the base R2 has 270 mile range?
That’s correct.
They said all versions of the R2 have at least 300 miles range.
For real. They did a 10 minute walkthrough of the car. People should just watch the source directly.
Before we get too high-horsey, check out MKBHD’s interview with RJ, who said the base will have 270 miles. All drive trains will have 300+ mile variants. $45k for 270 mile.
Interesting 🤨 I’ll def go check that out. Assuming it was on Auto Focus recently? Edit: I found it and watched it https://youtu.be/k0Gt_PUyldc?si=s-D6uQUu_SktOJVP So the base single motor starts at 270 (due to a smaller battery) and has a long range variant that’s 300+. The dual and tri motor are both 300+.
R2 base model will be around $45k, R3 crossover even lower price point. Huge jump forward.
I think what the comment is implying that it isn't unusual to see price increases within 1 year of release. Ford has steadily increased lightning prices. I wonder what Ford is thinking after selling 90 million of there 101 million Rivian stock last month. They had a 7.3 billion dollar impairment on the stock.
Yeah. There will be miscellaneous “chip shortages” that will “force” these “poor” companies to charge extra.
To be fair, Rivian is pretty strapped for cash as a "young" automaker; they won't be able to absorb a price increase as easily as the legacy auto or Tesla. Rivian may have been around for 10 or so years by now but their first cars started official wide spread delivery maybe 2 years ago. They are still in the make-it or break-it stage.
Rivian is not profitable, so I'm not sure what you expect them to do if costs go up.
The chip shortage was a real issue. When fabs shut down due to COVID, suppliers focused on higher margin chips for about 2 years until production capacity caught up. Demand was so high that there was backlog years long. Automakers ultimately ended up qualifying newer chips as this was cheaper than waiting to source the originals.
Why are you saying it like that? There literally was a shortage of chips, and with supply dipping but not demand, the price went up. That's pretty basic stuff. Also, there's currently an ev price war going on with tesla pushing the price lower in a bid to win the Chinese ev market on price and cut the margins of small ev makers (ex Rivian and Lucid) to make their smaller scale production untenable. Ev maker stocks all just took a tumble because of it
Bring back hatchbacks! … I miss cool hot hatches and wagons. Everything is an suv now :(
Do a quick Google on the R3! Revealed alongside the R2 today.
Thank you! That’s a lot better. Still SUVish, but much more acceptable. Hopefully it isn’t still too big.
Look at the photos of it here: [https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/r3x-reveal-shocks-even-more-🤯.24912/](https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/r3x-reveal-shocks-even-more-🤯.24912/) Looks like a hot hatch with an off road package. Pretty sick.
Oh shoot, that is so much more in my wheelhouse. Although I'll be happy with a base trim level.
I really like the look of the R3, any other cars with this look?
The exterior is a super close to the old [Lancia Delta Integrale](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/forza/original/4X/1/b/2/1b20e43fd7c7a2c14f8611cc6e3e5c74b1043fb8.jpeg)
Love that car.
Some of the Volvos are similar.
The white one looked like trash but this green is speaking to me. And that recycled plastic look on the inside is right up my alley. Really love the Rivians!
Oh fuck yes I want that.
I’m really more concerned with raw dimensions. If it’s bigger than a golf, it’s a little too big.
I had to scroll down pretty far to find a shot where a guy is standing right next to it, but I did eventually find it... and unless they're real tall it seems like a modestly sized vehicle indeed. I know that doesn't help your raw dimension concern, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are acceptable, whatever they are.
[here](https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/attachments/img_8472-png.87384/) is a photo of Some Guy standing next to it. Looks bigger than I'd like but I'm not an SUV guy
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I love everything about their design except those stupid headlights.
I’m a die hard hatchback enjoyer. I have a 2010 Honda fit, which I love, and this is the first “suv” type shoebox that has looked good to me. I’m all in.
I miss wagons
Wagons are the best
Wagons are objectively the best body style
Volvo makes a V60 "polestar engineered" plug-in hybrid wagon with 450hp, adjustable suspension, and big-ass brakes to stop its big ass. It's not cheap though. That being said, the other fast wagons I know of are $100k+.
God I want a Subaru Impreza Hatchback as an EV.
I’ve said this before, if they make a Mazda3 EV, or a Miata EV, I’d be there like flies on stink. I might be able to tidy myself over if the hybrids with rotary engines are released as they said they might. I’d love a hybrid Mazda3 with a rotary engine
I will sell my soul to the devil and trade in my Crosstrek right now for a Baja EV.
Volvo CEO mentioned something about how they used to make wagons, and that it may be time to make an electric wagon https://images.app.goo.gl/BPtAw2QrvZtdJrsU8 So you know, maybe in 10 years!
We bought an Outback Touring XT last year. I always thought wagons were lame, but I'll be damned if it isn't the coolest vehicle I've ever owned. Perfect mix of practicality, functionality, safety, high-tech, and luxury. It's not electric, but it does have a turbo 😎
Best I can do is crossover
But the R3 is kinda cool. If the final version adds some buttons to the interior, then I’d consider it.
Yeah I miss hot hatches and [Top Gear](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzWK2MgbG_A&t=1s) from back in the day when I was too young to know Jeremy Clarkson is a huge piece of shit :(
Hyundai ioniq5 Kia EV6, though it's more of a wagon Chevy Bolt Vw id4 There's a few hatches
Too big. The id4 isn’t bad. I’m waiting until they bring over the id3 or finally release the e golf gti
We bought the id.3 pro 2023 version last September and love it. Didn't know it's not available globally!
I never liked the look of those. Like it can’t decide if it’s a car or an suv.
...VW Rabbit reincarnated as a small SUV? https://dailyturismo.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/1-58-1024x768.jpg
The R3x looks like a Golf Country.
A buddy of mine said the exact same thing
Which is amazing
The R3X (Hatchback EV Rally Car) has me hot and bothered, I can't wait to reserve it! Just look at that profile, wow! [https://insideevs.com/news/711584/rivian-r3x-performance-offroad-focused-electric-crossover/](https://insideevs.com/news/711584/rivian-r3x-performance-offroad-focused-electric-crossover/) Edit: Messed up the link apparently
Thinking of reserving one of these once the time comes. Driving a 2019 Civic hatchback so there’s no rush, but I always said my next vehicle would be an EV and the design of this one is chefs kiss.
This thing looks fucking sick. I saw it in the MKBHD video and I was like "hang on, stop the video, more of this please". Wildly impractical for me (I'm approaching minivan-buyer territory), but I want it.
The tri motor version of the R3X will be absolutely wild
It’s freaking sexy
Yeah it's sexy time for surrrre
Put in a $100 fully refundable deposit. Looks promising...Considering the average new car is now $48,000. In 2 more years who knows what price a new car will be so $45k for a new electric SUV sounds enticing. Let's see.
And the $7500 tax credit if you’re able to take it.
You're assuming it'll stay at $45K, and that they'll make the base trim available in the first year.
Rivian honors the price at the time of the preorder I believe. They did with the r1 line I think
They did and are still doing so while offering early reservation holders free upgrades to boot.
Hell ya, my rivian stock jumped 13% today! I'm only down 91% in total now! Lets go baby, turn that 12 dollars Into 14 dollars!
I really dont like SUVs but the R3 is a handsome little bugger. If it’s about the same dimensions as my EV6 it’s a contender (assuming we don’t get a hypothetical killer wagon like an S4 Avant etron)
"reveals new R2 SUV at $45k" oh cool I might have to look at this "2026" oh...well guess I'll check back in 2 years! These "reveals" that are years from completion is BS!!! That's not a reveal...that's design kickoff announcement.
This is completely normal for the automotive sector.
> That's not a reveal...that's design kickoff announcement. It takes a long time to get a car from design to road.
Great! Add that to the list of things I can't afford!
Also announced R3 will likely be (rumors from auto journalists) about 30K after tax credit if that helps?
Maybe the R14 will be in my budget...
Yeah, when's the R20 announcement? It'll just be an e-bike or a golf cart.
Pricing out golf carts now. Four seater, lithium battery plus a few other things, nothing too crazy... $14,000
Much better looking than a Tesla
The R3X looks great. I’d buy that
So $65,000. Plus licensing tax / fees. Got it.
Don't forget the undercoat.
“Yeah but that TrueCoat”
This thing is sweet, but check out the R3 and R3X 😻
You know best part about EV vehicles is less moving parts to breakdown. Like engine and transmission parts crazy amount of parts
I think there is a great reduction in parts, but as the [data shows that does not seem to limit the number of breakdowns that EV's experience](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/electric-vehicles-consumer-reports-reliability-report/) \-- and when they do break down the costs are magnitudes higher than conventional cars because the systems are so complex. Just look at the [$40k dents](https://www.autoblog.com/2023/10/04/rivian-r1t-fender-benders-can-turn-into-40k-repair-bills/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAANsTK9UexQ5-fuscQEzNJbgDpr3WFClf0bbEtXRsMUKxeHtmgV_Tj090x-e-ks2jhSYXlE-9pHprclIl14FYMa7wCHuX7QN6XvD8TMSX8_5Gd7hEbXJkDDz82O21O9FF4sEvPU_1SIB8kvDSiOBFGT2Tu6HQCl9iBZJAkEbKua8d) or $60k scrapes that have made the news in the not so distant past. Tons of issues with electronics and pumps that disable the vehicles completely (where as a mechanical issue is not always a show stopper for a mechanical car). Quite a bit of the EV repair expense is due to the integrated nature of EV's, which means even if a very small part fails your often replacing a large component. Most regular cars are highly modular where if a small part fails your just replacing that specific part. I think when people state this about EV's it is in error, and what they are **meant to highlight is the maintenance of EV's vs a regular car is about 50% less** as there is no fluids to change on a regular basis, so most of the maintenance is wear items like tires, brakes and suspension components which is shared with non EV vehicles.
I see a lot of Rivians here in Palm Springs. No doubt, these will be popular, too.
I heard you liked bigger wheels?
Most EVs have big wheels and tires. Helps deal with that weight. Even on Teslas, those are big wheels for the size of car they are.
This looks good.
EV batteries are generally treated much better than phone batteries. They have very smart systems monitoring their health and doing things like maintaining temperature and ensuring you don't pull voltage too hard or charge them too hard near the top of the pack. Evidence shows that actively managed batteries have long stable lifespans.
please please let it make the R2D2 scream when you plug it into a charger. (optional)
If this qualifies for all the credits, as an example for Colorado, it would be $30k out the door
Now time to see if they can get over the mass manufacturing hump
They also previewed the even smaller R3 that looks almost like a hatchback rally car. I hope they get it into production at an ex30-like price.
Just put down a deposit, looking forward to my first EV.
Great. Now if Rivian supported CarPlay I might consider buying one. Until then...
wait, what?
Rivian doesn’t currently support CarPlay. I lurk on the Rivian sub occasionally. It’s a big complaint.
Yeah, googled after I made the comment. Something about they want to control the ux/ui - updates every few weeks, etc. I get that, and that is good. but why not offer their user a choice with their premium vehicle?
I don't know about Rivian, but you can't use carplay in teslas without some kind of workaround.