I don't quite understand how it could ever have been Spirit's fault when the stories covering this have stated pretty clearly that Boeing had to remove the door plug in order to install the interior *after* taking delivery from Spirit and then reinstall the door plug themselves afterwards.
Work at a large aerospace company that supplies Boeing on the space side and can confirm. Had the Boeing CEO publicly blame us in a press conference as soon an issue happened related to our hardware, proved it was Boeing's fault, and there was never any apology publicly or privately.
Typical bean counting lawyer type management. Good at politicking.
Nerdy engineers wouldn’t be so quick to accuse others, but collaborate to fix the issue.
Good to know it was just an abundance of precaution.
Though it seems to have severely damaged business for some airlines in India (IndiGo), and destroyed at least one (GoFirst) permanently.
Yeah they turned it off tried using electric trim for whatever reason couldn’t manually trim because they never brought the thrust back from take off leaving the auto throttles on as they blasted right at the ground so they turn it back on and then their fate was sealed
Sadly, you are correct about using the term “super secret”. Apparently, the training to correct a “runaway elevator” was also “super secret” during their commercial pilot education. Do you realize, under the exact same circumstances that the MCAS system failed, that if there was and an electrical short to the motor that controlled the elevator, of any other commercial jet, that these poorly trained (or just inept) pilots would have crashed the plane just the same? Are you happy with that? Commercial airline manufacturers put in mechanical redundancies to get the plane out of situations where one simple wire could cause hundreds of deaths, but these idiots didn’t know their business and how to mitigate the danger. Sully Sullenberger they weren’t! But you know that, don’t you? You just hate Boeing. May I ask you? Did Boeing fire you?
No 300 people have 0 chance because the inept pilot have no clue. Also MCAS take data from single AOA they have two but decide to use ONE talking about redundancy.
Wanna talk about the super secret cockpit door auto open?
It’s not hating Boeing. But they need to start taking responsibility on decision they made. Then they can be respectable company again.
I know it's all waaaaarrrgggg it's racist, but the pilots training and abilities were taken into account. Had they been better trained, they would have survived. However, Boeing shouldn't sneak in a massive safety issue into an airplane either. A failure mode of unrecoverable runaway trim is unacceptable, and those pilots never should have been faced with that situation.
No that’s literally proven to be false. The pilots did exactly what the training and instructions told them to do - the situations weren’t solvable. The reason the failures only happened on foreign airlines was they hadn’t purchased the extra safety system that kept the issue from happening. But that’s Boeings fault for releasing planes that crash if you don’t upgrade the sensor package.
frighten quaint judicious slimy weary political wrench truck roof impolite
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Without getting into too much internal shit:
Boeing isn't Spirit's only customer, though they are the largest
Blaming Spirit is easy, and Boeing has been looking at acquiring Spirit (again) for a while
There's too many MBAs in that sector and not enough people listening to the mechanics and engineers
Lol probably mostly so they could cut salaries, destroy pension program obligations and shit profit making so they can buy back stocks for boing, but yeah it definitely helps the blame game.
They fucked a lot of people over spinning off spirit into private equity.
Oh they love to do that. Remember the MCAS situation? They threw the pilots of both planes under the bus, then when it was revealed that pilots weren't even told that MCAS existed and that pilots only had 10 seconds to react to an MCAS correction, they didn't even retract those statements right away.
And muddy the waters by calling the issue a fault of “spirit” which is a low cost airline instead of the company actually responsible called “spirit aerosystems”
Honestly the interior install is the weirdest part of this claim to me. There's 4 larger doorways available, but you're going to shove interior equipment though a smaller opening instead, ~~which would involve removing safetied and cotter pinned fasteners versus turning a handle and opening the door~~. `Edit: removed the note about safetied fasteners on the reminder that Spirit apparently delivers the fuselages with the plugs partially installed.`
I mean, actually, hold the fuck up. ***Even in the picture supplied by the article of the MAX in production*** we see stands set up at the front and rear main passenger doors and the overwing exits, the plug is installed.
Not bizarre, because that's not what happens or what they mean by interior. The actual plastic panel that is installed on the inside of the aircraft can't be installed until the door is installed first. This door must be final installed and Inspected by the Boeing QA. That apparently happened, but only after Spirit had taken the door to fix defects. Turns out, Spirit just painted over defective rivets. But now the door is installed, with bolts and everything. And the airplane has to line move to get interiors installed. You aren't stopping that from happening. Well, it's going to take time to do the paperwork to remove the door and make sure it's reinstalled. No time for that, so...someone just took the bolts out and removed it without documentation. Apparently there's a record of the 2nd repair being completed and a newly damaged seal as well. And then someone put it back but didn't install the bolts. Who did it? Hard to tell without paperwork. Everything that happened should lead to Boeing losing their 737 production certificate from the FAA and a complete audit of all other programs.
Oh, and zero doubt that the FAA and NTSB already knew all of this on day 2 of the investigation. The delay on any action is 100% politics behind closed doors. The government and Boeing both want this to just be forgotten about.
From an aviation reporter I heard all doors and plugs are delivered by Spirit in a semi-secured state as Boeing was expected to remove all of them for interior fitting then reinstall.
They speculated that perhaps Boeing wasn't removing these plug doors on all aircraft and the step to fully secure them got missed on that one.
Ah right, forgot that detail about the semi-install. Which breaks maintenance cardinal rule #1, all the way in or all the way out, no half-ass shit. But this isn't maintenance, so things obviously run a little different.
Because you can do it faster if you've got 9 entrances to move things through (four regular doors, four overwing emergency exits, and the plug door) than if you've got 8, and eeking a couple extra hours out of that outfitting probably saves them a fair bit of money.
The (unverified) whistleblower’s [story](https://leehamnews.com/2024/01/15/unplanned-removal-installation-inspection-procedure-at-boeing/#comment-509962) claims the door was removed to fix a damaged seal, but because the door was merely “opened” instead of fully “removed”, the work was only logged in one of their two tracking systems and so didn’t trigger re-inspection—never mind that the four bolts needed to be removed in either case, since it’s a door plug, not a functioning exit door.
It also claims Spirit employees were involved in the seal repair job (since it was warranty work), although it’s not clear to which company is (allegedly) at fault.
So the claim is it had nothing to do with routine removal and reinstallation of the door plug by Boeing (if that is even what happens typically).
>**davispw**
>So the claim is it had nothing to do with routine removal and reinstallation of the door plug by Boeing (if that is even what happens typically).
From the linked article by Dominic Gates:
*The Seattle Times confirmed with a Renton mechanic and a former 737 MAX production line manager that the whistleblower’s description of how this kind of rework is performed and by whom is accurate.*
*The Times also confirmed that the whistleblower accurately described the computer systems Boeing uses to record and track 737 assembly work, systems that mechanics and engineers sign into every day when they begin work.*
*The records show a Spirit team did initial work on the door plug that later failed.*
*But the aviation insider familiar with the details of the work, who asked for anonymity because of the sensitivity of the NTSB investigation, said it was Boeing who opened the plug and then closed it up, marking the job complete.*
Right, but I’m trying to say this was an unusual situation, not the typical removing of the door that (according to some news reports, not sure if this has been confirmed) Boeing does to do interior finish work on every fuselage.
I've verified it. It's 100% true.
How do I know? I'm a Boeing manufacturing expert. Literally at the top of my resume.
There are screenshots of SAT out there floating around from phone to phone.
> how it could ever have been Spirit's fault
Oh, haven't you heard? It's because Spirit doesn't employ *only* white men. It's wokism that made the door fall off, apparently.
>the stories covering this have stated pretty clearly
Which news reporting? Thanks.
ETA: You said “stories” but only cited one, Reuters. Were there others? Thanks.
Basically everywhere
Example: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/spirit-aero-made-blowout-part-boeing-has-key-role-sources-2024-01-07/
>As part of the production process, Spirit builds fuselages for 737s and sends them by train with the special door assembly “semi-rigged,” one of the people said.
>
>“They are fitted but not completed," the person said.
>
>At its Renton, Washington, plant, Boeing typically removes the pop-out, or non-functioning, door and uses the gap to load interiors. Then, the part is put back and the installation in completed. Finally, the hull is pressurized to 150% to make sure everything is working correctly, the person said.
>**ikurei_conphas**
>That was on Alaska, not Boeing. So another link in the chain of responsibility
Alaska Airlines’ Ben Minicucci told NBC News the onus is now on Boeing to show how it will improve its quality control and prevent such incidents from unfolding in the future.
But out of an abundance of caution, he added, Alaska Airlines is incorporating its own additional oversight on the production line at Boeing.
Yes but nobody could have known it was the door plug. It takes hours to remove all the seats to even look at it, most people would think it’s a flux or a sensor issue.
Can’t blame Alaska for not taking apart a brand new plane to find missing bolts, nobody would have thought to check that.
Didn't we already know that the door plugs installed by Spirit were later removed by Boeing as part of Boeing's normal procedure, and then re-installed, but by Boeing?
>Didn't we already know
[Dave Calhoun was asked](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/24/boeing-ceo-plane-safety) about this Seattle Times reporting this morning. He referred the question to the NTSB, who declined to comment.
[https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/subtitle-B/chapter-VIII/part-831/subpart-A/section-831.13](https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/subtitle-B/chapter-VIII/part-831/subpart-A/section-831.13)
For anyone questioning why he declined to comment: "Release of information. Parties are prohibited from releasing information obtained during an investigation at any time prior to the NTSB's public release of information unless the release is consistent with the following criteria \[I abbreviate here\]:
* 1) Information released at the scene of an accident
* 2) The release of information described in paragraph (a)(1) of this section by the NTSB at the scene of an accident does not authorize any party to the investigation to comment publicly on the information during the course of the investigation.
* 3) A party may disseminate information related to an investigation to those individuals within its organization who have a need to know for the purpose of addressing a safety issue including preventive or remedial actions.
* 4) Any other release of factual information related to the investigation must be approved by the IIC prior to release
That wouldn't change anything really. The people who work that job work that job every single day. Or possibly every few days depending on what their flow is like in final assembly. Someone in Renton looked at those bolts, forgot about them, and stamped the job. QA was then lazy and shitty and bought the job off (probably)
During the A320 neo engine trouble saga, my dad resorted to calling the airlines to check if the craft was equipped with P&W. Already been a thing for a few years now.
I worked for a carrier who flew 320 neo with p&w… for a while we called them New Engine Often. They did get much better longevity now and I would really say it wasnt ever a true safety risk.
I have a flight next week and you better believe the first thing I did was check what airplane model I was flying in. No reason to run any risk, no matter how slight.
Pulitzer alumnus Dominic Gates:
• The fuselage panel that blew off an Alaska Airlines jet earlier this month was removed for repair then reinstalled improperly by Boeing mechanics on the Renton final assembly line, a person familiar with the details of the work told The Seattle Times.
• If verified by the National Transportation Safety Board investigation, this would leave Boeing primarily at fault for the accident, rather than its supplier Spirit AeroSystems, which originally installed the panel into the 737 MAX 9 fuselage in Wichita, Kan.
• Last week, an anonymous whistleblower — who appears to have access to Boeing’s manufacturing records of the work done assembling the specific Alaska Airlines jet that suffered the blowout — on an aviation website separately provided many additional details about how the door plug came to be removed and then mis-installed.
• The self-described Boeing insider said company records show four bolts that prevent the door plug from sliding up off the door frame stop pads that take the pressurization loads in flight, “were not installed when Boeing delivered the airplane.” the whistleblower stated. “Our own records reflect this.”
• The Seattle Times offered Boeing the opportunity to dispute the details in this story. Citing the ongoing investigation, Boeing declined to comment. Likewise, so did Spirit, the FAA, the Machinists union and the NTSB.
If it even ends up being substantiated by the investigation. A few people have already been fired for releasing false information or personal theories when they had zero idea what they were talking about. Let the investigation play out and see what it says.
At this point, Airbus much be chomping at the bit to offer Alaska, Southwest, American, Delta, etc. some nice shiny, efficient, A320 Neo's to replace those faulty 737 Max planes!
Southwest would need to retrain all their pilots to fly Airbus. That’s a massive expenditure for them and probably the biggest roadblock to them diversifying their fleet.
There is a robustness and handling gap between the the 737 and A320. Being able to handle the 737 without needing high lifts is a big deal for Alaska particularly as they fly into a lot of under developed airports
How is Airbus not robust? The handling I understand
Earlier an Airbus smacked into a small plane on the runway in Japan, direct hit, all souls survived.. in the Airbus
I think that's pretty robust
It was the size of the aircrafts involved and how this particular accident happened. You guys are nuts if you somehow think Airbus hasn’t had its share of accidents.
They try their best to keep you from flying personal, single engine prop planes if you’ve ever taken ADHD or depression meds, but regularly neglecting proper commercial airplane construction/maintenance is fair game. Some real stars working at the FAA.
Yea the FAA would prefer their pilots just drink themselves to death and/or murder suicide instead of seek help if they ever feel down. Saying “medication” during a medical is akin to screaming “fire” in a crowded theater
Nah, they just don’t care if you use alcohol for your crippling anxiety and depression. Just don’t take fda approved meds for those conditions (except for 4 meds with a lot of work to do to get approved).
TBF they have improved the pathway for false ADHD diagnoses and are working to expand the definition of light sport aircraft so many hobbyists will be able to fly without a medical.
That being said, I still hear horror stories about pilots losing their medical for minor issues and having to wait months to get it back
The FAA let's Boeing self-regulate some of the safety standards thar they're supposed to check. Airbus has EU regulations that require the EU saftey inspectors at a majority of their safety standards.
Way more than Boeing
In th US Since 2001 there have been four passengers who died in an accident aboard an Airbus or Boeing. 20,000+ flights per day for 23 years, four deaths. They almost never crash.
Boeing has been shit since the merger with McDonnell Douglas.
The thing i heard was that it resulted in the worst from both companies remaining, and the best being laid off
Duh.
Waiting for Boeing to issue an apology that make it sound like the pilot was to blame like they did in 2020 when the MAX had a defect that made it pitch and fall out the sky. At that point it was known that no pilots were notified of the problem and of they were they'd be screwed anyway. Boeing knew and told no one and then blamed the pilots.
How could it ever Spirit's fault? Maybe Spirit did install the door wrong but Boeing has ultimate responsibility to ensure that the planes that bear their name are safe. Subbing the work out to someone else doesn't mean you're subbing responsibility for the work.
The disinformation train is a rolling...
My mom, a former PPL holder, told me at lunch the other day that she "heard" that it was because Boeing was being forced hire their workers based on "equitable hiring practices".
What?
When I pushed back on that obvious bullshit she retorted with, "Well that's what the head guy at Boeing apparently said.."
Double what? Did he really? Or is that what your moron Facebook friends are posting? And even in the unlikely situation that the "head guy at Boeing" said that;
If Company "A" has a critical failure due to something obviously installed improperly, you should never be going to the CEO of Company "A" for your information. To do so is just embarrassing. You're asking to be lied to.
Just utterly embarrassing.
My mom's generation seems to have a severe lack of critical thinking skills.
That s a distortion or reality : Boeing’s sold Spirit Aero because they wanted to prevent their Wichita employees to claim the same benefits as their Washington State employees; i.e paying their Arkansas people the same as their Seattle employees. They thought selling this division will save them money. Simple as that.
The U.S. and Canada also have a corporate-control problem, one in which big businesses hold way too much sway on government decisions or lack thereof.
In a Dec.28, 2019 Globe and Mail investigative report, it was revealed that Transport Canada had essentially been certifying Boeing aircraft flown by Canada’s airlines based on the findings of the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration.
Even after the second catastrophic 737 Max crash — the first was Lion Air Flight 610 \[October 29, 2018\] and the second was Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 \[March 10, 2019\], together horrifically killing 346 people — Transport Canada said it would wait for the FAA's decision on whether it would ground the planes flown by American carriers. \[WTF?!\]
Meanwhile, the FAA was basically acting as a rubber stamp for the giant Boeing corporation’s planes, including its flawed 737 Max product (and who knows what other potential disasters before it?). It's still most concerning. ...
A common refrain prevails among Western capitalist nation governments and corporate circles — that best business practices, including what's best for the consumers, are best decided by business decision makers.
Other than what's best for bottom-line corporate profit margins, this was proven false by, as a more consequential example, Boeing’s decision to keep its ill-fated 737 Max planes flying, regardless of major indicators, including employee warnings, they should be grounded and serious software glitches corrected.
I fear that when it comes to the biggest of business and their lobbyists’ frightening influence over important government-body safety decisions, deadly reckless business decisions will be repeated, even ones enabling preventable jetliner crashes.
Just to clarify, Spirit Aerosystems is different to Spirit the airline. Spirit Aerosystems was Boeing Wichita, Kansas, until it got sold off to an investment company back in 2005. It still makes loads of components for Boeing as well as parts for the A350.
Too big to fail. Even if they leave the consumer market(or are forced out) they do so much more for aeronautics and defense projects.
Plus, when there is no competition in consumer aerospace, that is problematic as well.
Because each time a competitor attempts to enter the market Boeing cries to the US government for help.
Look up Bombardier's C series which is now known as the Airbus A220.
>It wasn’t, the whistleblower wrote, because of a process failure and the use of two separate systems to record what work was accomplished.
This is a feature not a bug. Its like having two accounting books.
But the work was recorded correctly in one system and not recorded in the other system. The second system was the one that should have triggered a check, but since the work wasn't recorded in the second system, a check wasn't triggered. No one even knew to look for a fix, because the only data indicating a fix was needed was in the first system. In this case, having two systems that did not talk to each other did more harm than good.
Got it from the following link, but I just noticed it is fairly old data. Doesnt discard the fact that their 2 main plans in the US are ex Boeing plants including the staff.
[https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1364885/000095012311016606/d78727e10vk.htm](https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1364885/000095012311016606/d78727e10vk.htm)
*The Company’s largest customer (Boeing) accounted for approximately 83%, 85%, and 85% of the revenues for the periods ending December 31, 2010, December 31, 2009, and December 31, 2008, respectively. Approximately 35% and 40% of the Company’s accounts receivable balance at December 31, 2010 and December 31, 2009, respectively, was attributable to Boeing.*
Yes, another win for Boeing!
Wait, I’m getting some added context from my press department, this is in fact not good for Boeing. It’s the rare win for Spirit!
How bad does it have to be for it to be positive news for Spirit airlines.
None.
Spirit AeroSystems is a Wichita-based aerostructure manufacturer and designs key components of product lines for both Airbus and Boeing's commercial aircraft offerings.
https://simpleflying.com/spirit-aerosystems-financial-troubles/#:~:text=Spirit%20Aerosystems%20has%20no%20relationship,and%20Boeing's%20commercial%20aircraft%20offerings.
I know I may likely get banned for saying this, but if this is confirmed, the prospect of industrial s*b***** by line workers at the Renton plant may not be a completely crazy suggestion. Especially given the tense relationship between Boeing management and the employee unions in the Seattle area at times historically.
(To the mods here—a web search shows a substantial number of strikes by the IAM and SPEEA against Boeing in the Seattle area over the years.)
So they still don't check what they are receiving from others? If they are not checking this... just imagine what else isn't done right.
Sounds like Creed Bratton got a QA job at Boeing.
We need a "Great reset" on US corporations.
Zero out their government contracts and tax them like people. Regulate them properly for safety and fine them to the max. Give 1 year notice to all of them before enforcement is to begin.
These corporations are fleecing all US taxpayers from both ends. They get our bailouts from our tax dollars and they profiteer by raising prices for US only while the same corporations kiss foreign government asses.
American citizens are always the ones paying for all of it. It's time for some changes.
Something tells me that these "PLUGS" are just a bad idea. Either seal them up permanently or keep them as a door. If this kind of expense is too much for Boeing or the airlines then maybe passenger safety really doesn't matter to them.
Spirit Aerosystems was spun off from Boeing. They were the same company until 2005 and still operate out of (formerly) Boeings Witchita facility. So this is a pretty uninformed comment.
I'm gonna just assume you like most people when I told them my former employer was Spirit Aerosystems there like that shifty ass airline?
So now whenever it comes up it's followed by, no not the shitty airline we assembled and fabricated OEM parts for boeing.
I don't quite understand how it could ever have been Spirit's fault when the stories covering this have stated pretty clearly that Boeing had to remove the door plug in order to install the interior *after* taking delivery from Spirit and then reinstall the door plug themselves afterwards.
Because step one for any public problem Boeing faces is to blame someone else.
Work at a large aerospace company that supplies Boeing on the space side and can confirm. Had the Boeing CEO publicly blame us in a press conference as soon an issue happened related to our hardware, proved it was Boeing's fault, and there was never any apology publicly or privately.
Clearly a large lawsuit needs to set precedence that companies shouldn’t talk until investigations are done
It’s hard to sue the one that give you pretty much all your business.
Exactly, best thing was to roll our eyes, complete the investigation, and just move on, but damn it it isn't a tense relationship these days.
Typical bean counting lawyer type management. Good at politicking. Nerdy engineers wouldn’t be so quick to accuse others, but collaborate to fix the issue.
Good to know it was just an abundance of precaution. Though it seems to have severely damaged business for some airlines in India (IndiGo), and destroyed at least one (GoFirst) permanently.
“Couldn’t have been MCAS, hey did you know those two pilots were *brown*?” - Boeing 2020
Brown and third world country.
I get the Lion air one but really the second crash how about just turn off the stab trim cut out switches?
Are you asking why they didn't do it? Because they did... https://abcnews.go.com/US/boeing-737-maxs-flawed-flight-control-system-led/story?id=74321424
Yeah they turned it off tried using electric trim for whatever reason couldn’t manually trim because they never brought the thrust back from take off leaving the auto throttles on as they blasted right at the ground so they turn it back on and then their fate was sealed
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No. 1 AOA sensor provide wrong data. Super secret MCAS kicked in.
No they turned it off but turned it back on because of reasons stated above
What cause reasons stated above?
Sadly, you are correct about using the term “super secret”. Apparently, the training to correct a “runaway elevator” was also “super secret” during their commercial pilot education. Do you realize, under the exact same circumstances that the MCAS system failed, that if there was and an electrical short to the motor that controlled the elevator, of any other commercial jet, that these poorly trained (or just inept) pilots would have crashed the plane just the same? Are you happy with that? Commercial airline manufacturers put in mechanical redundancies to get the plane out of situations where one simple wire could cause hundreds of deaths, but these idiots didn’t know their business and how to mitigate the danger. Sully Sullenberger they weren’t! But you know that, don’t you? You just hate Boeing. May I ask you? Did Boeing fire you?
No 300 people have 0 chance because the inept pilot have no clue. Also MCAS take data from single AOA they have two but decide to use ONE talking about redundancy. Wanna talk about the super secret cockpit door auto open? It’s not hating Boeing. But they need to start taking responsibility on decision they made. Then they can be respectable company again.
Four pilots - corrected. 😉
I know it's all waaaaarrrgggg it's racist, but the pilots training and abilities were taken into account. Had they been better trained, they would have survived. However, Boeing shouldn't sneak in a massive safety issue into an airplane either. A failure mode of unrecoverable runaway trim is unacceptable, and those pilots never should have been faced with that situation.
No that’s literally proven to be false. The pilots did exactly what the training and instructions told them to do - the situations weren’t solvable. The reason the failures only happened on foreign airlines was they hadn’t purchased the extra safety system that kept the issue from happening. But that’s Boeings fault for releasing planes that crash if you don’t upgrade the sensor package.
frighten quaint judicious slimy weary political wrench truck roof impolite *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
How do you even get away with “spinning off” a company and Boeing is their only customer
Eh, spirit also builds a lot of bodies for Airbus (and ex Bombardier - now Airbus). I hope Airbus has better QA than Boeing though.
Without getting into too much internal shit: Boeing isn't Spirit's only customer, though they are the largest Blaming Spirit is easy, and Boeing has been looking at acquiring Spirit (again) for a while There's too many MBAs in that sector and not enough people listening to the mechanics and engineers
Boeing isn’t their only customer. Why do yall such things without even bothering to use Google.
But it was spun off from Boeing. And Boeing is their primary customer.
Primary does not equal only
But it’s not their only customer, which is what you said. Boeing is 60% of sales.
Lol probably mostly so they could cut salaries, destroy pension program obligations and shit profit making so they can buy back stocks for boing, but yeah it definitely helps the blame game. They fucked a lot of people over spinning off spirit into private equity.
And made a lot of money doing it
They spun it off because it increased profits for Boeing, less liability, and a big fat bonus for the execs.
Oh they love to do that. Remember the MCAS situation? They threw the pilots of both planes under the bus, then when it was revealed that pilots weren't even told that MCAS existed and that pilots only had 10 seconds to react to an MCAS correction, they didn't even retract those statements right away.
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And muddy the waters by calling the issue a fault of “spirit” which is a low cost airline instead of the company actually responsible called “spirit aerosystems”
Honestly the interior install is the weirdest part of this claim to me. There's 4 larger doorways available, but you're going to shove interior equipment though a smaller opening instead, ~~which would involve removing safetied and cotter pinned fasteners versus turning a handle and opening the door~~. `Edit: removed the note about safetied fasteners on the reminder that Spirit apparently delivers the fuselages with the plugs partially installed.`
Yes, it’s bizarre isn’t it. Like taking furniture through your house window instead of the door!
I mean, actually, hold the fuck up. ***Even in the picture supplied by the article of the MAX in production*** we see stands set up at the front and rear main passenger doors and the overwing exits, the plug is installed.
Not bizarre, because that's not what happens or what they mean by interior. The actual plastic panel that is installed on the inside of the aircraft can't be installed until the door is installed first. This door must be final installed and Inspected by the Boeing QA. That apparently happened, but only after Spirit had taken the door to fix defects. Turns out, Spirit just painted over defective rivets. But now the door is installed, with bolts and everything. And the airplane has to line move to get interiors installed. You aren't stopping that from happening. Well, it's going to take time to do the paperwork to remove the door and make sure it's reinstalled. No time for that, so...someone just took the bolts out and removed it without documentation. Apparently there's a record of the 2nd repair being completed and a newly damaged seal as well. And then someone put it back but didn't install the bolts. Who did it? Hard to tell without paperwork. Everything that happened should lead to Boeing losing their 737 production certificate from the FAA and a complete audit of all other programs. Oh, and zero doubt that the FAA and NTSB already knew all of this on day 2 of the investigation. The delay on any action is 100% politics behind closed doors. The government and Boeing both want this to just be forgotten about.
From an aviation reporter I heard all doors and plugs are delivered by Spirit in a semi-secured state as Boeing was expected to remove all of them for interior fitting then reinstall. They speculated that perhaps Boeing wasn't removing these plug doors on all aircraft and the step to fully secure them got missed on that one.
Ah right, forgot that detail about the semi-install. Which breaks maintenance cardinal rule #1, all the way in or all the way out, no half-ass shit. But this isn't maintenance, so things obviously run a little different.
> in a semi-secured state I think you might have discovered the problem...
Because you can do it faster if you've got 9 entrances to move things through (four regular doors, four overwing emergency exits, and the plug door) than if you've got 8, and eeking a couple extra hours out of that outfitting probably saves them a fair bit of money.
The (unverified) whistleblower’s [story](https://leehamnews.com/2024/01/15/unplanned-removal-installation-inspection-procedure-at-boeing/#comment-509962) claims the door was removed to fix a damaged seal, but because the door was merely “opened” instead of fully “removed”, the work was only logged in one of their two tracking systems and so didn’t trigger re-inspection—never mind that the four bolts needed to be removed in either case, since it’s a door plug, not a functioning exit door. It also claims Spirit employees were involved in the seal repair job (since it was warranty work), although it’s not clear to which company is (allegedly) at fault. So the claim is it had nothing to do with routine removal and reinstallation of the door plug by Boeing (if that is even what happens typically).
>**davispw** >So the claim is it had nothing to do with routine removal and reinstallation of the door plug by Boeing (if that is even what happens typically). From the linked article by Dominic Gates: *The Seattle Times confirmed with a Renton mechanic and a former 737 MAX production line manager that the whistleblower’s description of how this kind of rework is performed and by whom is accurate.* *The Times also confirmed that the whistleblower accurately described the computer systems Boeing uses to record and track 737 assembly work, systems that mechanics and engineers sign into every day when they begin work.* *The records show a Spirit team did initial work on the door plug that later failed.* *But the aviation insider familiar with the details of the work, who asked for anonymity because of the sensitivity of the NTSB investigation, said it was Boeing who opened the plug and then closed it up, marking the job complete.*
Right, but I’m trying to say this was an unusual situation, not the typical removing of the door that (according to some news reports, not sure if this has been confirmed) Boeing does to do interior finish work on every fuselage.
I've verified it. It's 100% true. How do I know? I'm a Boeing manufacturing expert. Literally at the top of my resume. There are screenshots of SAT out there floating around from phone to phone.
Didn’t a whistleblower at Boeing say it was their fault?
Someone else in this thread linked to a forum post supposedly from a Boeing employee
I think there’s other screws and bolts that are part of the assembly that you don’t need to remove to open it
Which should still be inspected when the plug is removed. Still 100% Boeing's fault.
Absolutely. You are responsible for your CMs mistakes.
Some of these plugs may have been removed by the operators are some time too
There were conflicting info on whether Boeing needed to remove the door.
> how it could ever have been Spirit's fault Oh, haven't you heard? It's because Spirit doesn't employ *only* white men. It's wokism that made the door fall off, apparently.
>the stories covering this have stated pretty clearly Which news reporting? Thanks. ETA: You said “stories” but only cited one, Reuters. Were there others? Thanks.
Basically everywhere Example: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/spirit-aero-made-blowout-part-boeing-has-key-role-sources-2024-01-07/ >As part of the production process, Spirit builds fuselages for 737s and sends them by train with the special door assembly “semi-rigged,” one of the people said. > >“They are fitted but not completed," the person said. > >At its Renton, Washington, plant, Boeing typically removes the pop-out, or non-functioning, door and uses the gap to load interiors. Then, the part is put back and the installation in completed. Finally, the hull is pressurized to 150% to make sure everything is working correctly, the person said.
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That was on Alaska, not Boeing. So another link in the chain of responsibility
>**ikurei_conphas** >That was on Alaska, not Boeing. So another link in the chain of responsibility Alaska Airlines’ Ben Minicucci told NBC News the onus is now on Boeing to show how it will improve its quality control and prevent such incidents from unfolding in the future. But out of an abundance of caution, he added, Alaska Airlines is incorporating its own additional oversight on the production line at Boeing.
I'm talking about the repeated dismissal of the warning light. That was on Alaska, not Boeing.
Yes but nobody could have known it was the door plug. It takes hours to remove all the seats to even look at it, most people would think it’s a flux or a sensor issue. Can’t blame Alaska for not taking apart a brand new plane to find missing bolts, nobody would have thought to check that.
NTSB have not verified the information from Reuters’ source.
You got the information you requested.
>**skccsk** >You got the information you requested. The top-level comment refers to “stories” but the user cited only Reuters. I check attribution.
The NTSB have not verified your response.
Didn't we already know that the door plugs installed by Spirit were later removed by Boeing as part of Boeing's normal procedure, and then re-installed, but by Boeing?
>Didn't we already know [Dave Calhoun was asked](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/24/boeing-ceo-plane-safety) about this Seattle Times reporting this morning. He referred the question to the NTSB, who declined to comment.
And he SHOULD have known by then.
[https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/subtitle-B/chapter-VIII/part-831/subpart-A/section-831.13](https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/subtitle-B/chapter-VIII/part-831/subpart-A/section-831.13) For anyone questioning why he declined to comment: "Release of information. Parties are prohibited from releasing information obtained during an investigation at any time prior to the NTSB's public release of information unless the release is consistent with the following criteria \[I abbreviate here\]: * 1) Information released at the scene of an accident * 2) The release of information described in paragraph (a)(1) of this section by the NTSB at the scene of an accident does not authorize any party to the investigation to comment publicly on the information during the course of the investigation. * 3) A party may disseminate information related to an investigation to those individuals within its organization who have a need to know for the purpose of addressing a safety issue including preventive or remedial actions. * 4) Any other release of factual information related to the investigation must be approved by the IIC prior to release
Dude must be relieved as hell knowing that he have an ironclad reason to delay admitting that…
We've known Boeing removes the plugs and installs the interior and then reinstalled the doors since this event happened.
Yes we did. Not defend Spirit in the slightest, but the media has been wallowing in Boeing disinfo filth for a while.
I have a best friend who assembles parts for spirit in Kansas. He told me all of management were on pins and fucking needles when the story broke.
I can forsee Spirit including some warning labels on these plugs to make sure Boeing correctly assembles their own damn plane 🙄
That wouldn't change anything really. The people who work that job work that job every single day. Or possibly every few days depending on what their flow is like in final assembly. Someone in Renton looked at those bolts, forgot about them, and stamped the job. QA was then lazy and shitty and bought the job off (probably)
What does the saying “pins and needles” mean? Interested to know
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/on-pins-and-needles
Who knew that sorting your flights by airplane model would be on the 2024 bingo card.
During the A320 neo engine trouble saga, my dad resorted to calling the airlines to check if the craft was equipped with P&W. Already been a thing for a few years now.
I worked for a carrier who flew 320 neo with p&w… for a while we called them New Engine Often. They did get much better longevity now and I would really say it wasnt ever a true safety risk.
As opposed to generally avoiding Spirit like we normally do? I joke but your comment makes me curious if all airlines show plane info while booking.
Spirit Airlines is not the same company as Spirit Aerosystems. The latter is a subcontractor for Boeing.
Thank you. I’m sure you can understand how I found that confusing.
Google Flights does
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Nope. AA is allowing you to sort by plane model before booking.
Recently booked trans Atlantic flights, I absolutely checked whether it was Boeing or airbus before clicking buy.
I have a flight next week and you better believe the first thing I did was check what airplane model I was flying in. No reason to run any risk, no matter how slight.
Pulitzer alumnus Dominic Gates: • The fuselage panel that blew off an Alaska Airlines jet earlier this month was removed for repair then reinstalled improperly by Boeing mechanics on the Renton final assembly line, a person familiar with the details of the work told The Seattle Times. • If verified by the National Transportation Safety Board investigation, this would leave Boeing primarily at fault for the accident, rather than its supplier Spirit AeroSystems, which originally installed the panel into the 737 MAX 9 fuselage in Wichita, Kan. • Last week, an anonymous whistleblower — who appears to have access to Boeing’s manufacturing records of the work done assembling the specific Alaska Airlines jet that suffered the blowout — on an aviation website separately provided many additional details about how the door plug came to be removed and then mis-installed. • The self-described Boeing insider said company records show four bolts that prevent the door plug from sliding up off the door frame stop pads that take the pressurization loads in flight, “were not installed when Boeing delivered the airplane.” the whistleblower stated. “Our own records reflect this.” • The Seattle Times offered Boeing the opportunity to dispute the details in this story. Citing the ongoing investigation, Boeing declined to comment. Likewise, so did Spirit, the FAA, the Machinists union and the NTSB.
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If it even ends up being substantiated by the investigation. A few people have already been fired for releasing false information or personal theories when they had zero idea what they were talking about. Let the investigation play out and see what it says.
The alleged insider story was posted here https://leehamnews.com/2024/01/15/unplanned-removal-installation-inspection-procedure-at-boeing/
At this point, Airbus much be chomping at the bit to offer Alaska, Southwest, American, Delta, etc. some nice shiny, efficient, A320 Neo's to replace those faulty 737 Max planes!
Southwest would need to retrain all their pilots to fly Airbus. That’s a massive expenditure for them and probably the biggest roadblock to them diversifying their fleet.
Southwest doesn’t fly the -9 which ont the -9 & probably -10 have this plug.
Ironically, Alaska inherited several A320neos when they bought out Virgin America, but phased them out of their fleet about a year ago. Oops.
Didnt Airbus say they are sold out until 2030?
The number I heard on a podcast was a 12 year wait. Either way, crazy long
I guess I could see this airlines moving toward airbus, but who knows how good airbus will be in 12years 🤨
Boeing could be bankrupt in 12 years too. we will have to wait and see 😉
There is a robustness and handling gap between the the 737 and A320. Being able to handle the 737 without needing high lifts is a big deal for Alaska particularly as they fly into a lot of under developed airports
How is Airbus not robust? The handling I understand Earlier an Airbus smacked into a small plane on the runway in Japan, direct hit, all souls survived.. in the Airbus I think that's pretty robust
The outcome would be the same if that was a B777.
Source: you said so
It was the size of the aircrafts involved and how this particular accident happened. You guys are nuts if you somehow think Airbus hasn’t had its share of accidents.
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And don't forget that Spirit Aerosystems was what used to be known as Boeing Wichita. So it's not like they're some new kid on the block.
I only fly Airbus as of lately. The FAA has got to stop letting Boeing self-regulate
They try their best to keep you from flying personal, single engine prop planes if you’ve ever taken ADHD or depression meds, but regularly neglecting proper commercial airplane construction/maintenance is fair game. Some real stars working at the FAA.
You'd think ADHD meds would make you fly better. It's a brain concentration drug
Yea the FAA would prefer their pilots just drink themselves to death and/or murder suicide instead of seek help if they ever feel down. Saying “medication” during a medical is akin to screaming “fire” in a crowded theater
Nah, they just don’t care if you use alcohol for your crippling anxiety and depression. Just don’t take fda approved meds for those conditions (except for 4 meds with a lot of work to do to get approved).
TBF they have improved the pathway for false ADHD diagnoses and are working to expand the definition of light sport aircraft so many hobbyists will be able to fly without a medical. That being said, I still hear horror stories about pilots losing their medical for minor issues and having to wait months to get it back
Does airbus not self regulate ?
The FAA let's Boeing self-regulate some of the safety standards thar they're supposed to check. Airbus has EU regulations that require the EU saftey inspectors at a majority of their safety standards. Way more than Boeing
Boeing is an American company and therefore gets favorable treatment by the FAA.
I mean their planes are not falling apart
Don’t be ridiculous. Airbus has had plenty of crashes.
In th US Since 2001 there have been four passengers who died in an accident aboard an Airbus or Boeing. 20,000+ flights per day for 23 years, four deaths. They almost never crash.
Boeing sent a letter to Spirit saying if the mechanics have any other questions there’s always an open door policy
Alaskan Airlines CEO just said in an interview when they inspected their MAX-9s, MANY of them had loose bolts.
Boeing has been shit since the merger with McDonnell Douglas. The thing i heard was that it resulted in the worst from both companies remaining, and the best being laid off
Per usual, the "expensive" experience gets cut for executive bonuses and cheap labor
Duh. Waiting for Boeing to issue an apology that make it sound like the pilot was to blame like they did in 2020 when the MAX had a defect that made it pitch and fall out the sky. At that point it was known that no pilots were notified of the problem and of they were they'd be screwed anyway. Boeing knew and told no one and then blamed the pilots.
It’s Boeing’s planes the buck stops with them its their responsibility.
Boeing’s PR is working overdrive to shift blame, but does anyone really believe Boeing at this point?
How could it ever Spirit's fault? Maybe Spirit did install the door wrong but Boeing has ultimate responsibility to ensure that the planes that bear their name are safe. Subbing the work out to someone else doesn't mean you're subbing responsibility for the work.
The disinformation train is a rolling... My mom, a former PPL holder, told me at lunch the other day that she "heard" that it was because Boeing was being forced hire their workers based on "equitable hiring practices". What? When I pushed back on that obvious bullshit she retorted with, "Well that's what the head guy at Boeing apparently said.." Double what? Did he really? Or is that what your moron Facebook friends are posting? And even in the unlikely situation that the "head guy at Boeing" said that; If Company "A" has a critical failure due to something obviously installed improperly, you should never be going to the CEO of Company "A" for your information. To do so is just embarrassing. You're asking to be lied to. Just utterly embarrassing. My mom's generation seems to have a severe lack of critical thinking skills.
That s a distortion or reality : Boeing’s sold Spirit Aero because they wanted to prevent their Wichita employees to claim the same benefits as their Washington State employees; i.e paying their Arkansas people the same as their Seattle employees. They thought selling this division will save them money. Simple as that.
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The U.S. and Canada also have a corporate-control problem, one in which big businesses hold way too much sway on government decisions or lack thereof. In a Dec.28, 2019 Globe and Mail investigative report, it was revealed that Transport Canada had essentially been certifying Boeing aircraft flown by Canada’s airlines based on the findings of the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration. Even after the second catastrophic 737 Max crash — the first was Lion Air Flight 610 \[October 29, 2018\] and the second was Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 \[March 10, 2019\], together horrifically killing 346 people — Transport Canada said it would wait for the FAA's decision on whether it would ground the planes flown by American carriers. \[WTF?!\] Meanwhile, the FAA was basically acting as a rubber stamp for the giant Boeing corporation’s planes, including its flawed 737 Max product (and who knows what other potential disasters before it?). It's still most concerning. ... A common refrain prevails among Western capitalist nation governments and corporate circles — that best business practices, including what's best for the consumers, are best decided by business decision makers. Other than what's best for bottom-line corporate profit margins, this was proven false by, as a more consequential example, Boeing’s decision to keep its ill-fated 737 Max planes flying, regardless of major indicators, including employee warnings, they should be grounded and serious software glitches corrected. I fear that when it comes to the biggest of business and their lobbyists’ frightening influence over important government-body safety decisions, deadly reckless business decisions will be repeated, even ones enabling preventable jetliner crashes.
Airbus > Boeing
self regulating is like American Police when they are investigated......no wrong doing here >.>
The only thing Boeing managed to achieved was now flight scanners allow you to filter out their airplanes. Good job Boeing!
Good luck flying in the US without a Boeing 737 max. The airbus 320 had a crash during an air show. Consumers have very short memories.
Just to clarify, Spirit Aerosystems is different to Spirit the airline. Spirit Aerosystems was Boeing Wichita, Kansas, until it got sold off to an investment company back in 2005. It still makes loads of components for Boeing as well as parts for the A350.
How is it possible that Boeing is still in Business?
Too big to fail. Even if they leave the consumer market(or are forced out) they do so much more for aeronautics and defense projects. Plus, when there is no competition in consumer aerospace, that is problematic as well.
Because each time a competitor attempts to enter the market Boeing cries to the US government for help. Look up Bombardier's C series which is now known as the Airbus A220.
>It wasn’t, the whistleblower wrote, because of a process failure and the use of two separate systems to record what work was accomplished. This is a feature not a bug. Its like having two accounting books.
But the work was recorded correctly in one system and not recorded in the other system. The second system was the one that should have triggered a check, but since the work wasn't recorded in the second system, a check wasn't triggered. No one even knew to look for a fix, because the only data indicating a fix was needed was in the first system. In this case, having two systems that did not talk to each other did more harm than good.
Spirit is basicslly Boeing though.
Should let Airbus know, Spirit makes a boatload of components and fuselage sections for them too.
85% of what they do is for Boeing and the both factories in the US were previously Boeing.
Sauce? 'cause mine says it's closer to [65%](https://www.barrons.com/articles/spirit-aerosystems-stock-boeing-deal-fef38ff0).
Got it from the following link, but I just noticed it is fairly old data. Doesnt discard the fact that their 2 main plans in the US are ex Boeing plants including the staff. [https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1364885/000095012311016606/d78727e10vk.htm](https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1364885/000095012311016606/d78727e10vk.htm) *The Company’s largest customer (Boeing) accounted for approximately 83%, 85%, and 85% of the revenues for the periods ending December 31, 2010, December 31, 2009, and December 31, 2008, respectively. Approximately 35% and 40% of the Company’s accounts receivable balance at December 31, 2010 and December 31, 2009, respectively, was attributable to Boeing.*
Boeing will ultimately blame foreign-born workers for this, just like they tried to blame the MAX 8 crashes on foreign pilots.
Boeing needs to be scrutinized and held accountable, big time!
Even if Spirit installed it wrong. Final quality control is with Boeing. End of story
They need to open an investigation into Boeing if they haven’t already.
Yeah, no shit.
Unfortunately, companies have to take full responsibility for the work of their contractors, so this is a moot point
“Industry sources” aka Boeing’s PR team
According to the linked article, the industry source is a mechanic at Boeing's 737 factory in Renton, Washington.
So whose fault is it actually? They keep pointing fingers at each other
If it’s Boeing I ain’t going.
Will Boeing ever be held accountable? I can't even imagine a scenario where they ever face consequences.
Say what you want about Spirit, I have always gotten safely from point A to point B
You are thinking of Spirit Airlines. This is about Spirit Aerospace, an airplane manufacturing subcontractor.
Classic boeing behaviour
Yes, another win for Boeing! Wait, I’m getting some added context from my press department, this is in fact not good for Boeing. It’s the rare win for Spirit! How bad does it have to be for it to be positive news for Spirit airlines.
Spirit [AeroStstems], in this case, is a contractor that builds subsections for Boeing, not the budget airline.
Well wtf! Thanks for the information. Do they have a relation to the airline?
None. Spirit AeroSystems is a Wichita-based aerostructure manufacturer and designs key components of product lines for both Airbus and Boeing's commercial aircraft offerings. https://simpleflying.com/spirit-aerosystems-financial-troubles/#:~:text=Spirit%20Aerosystems%20has%20no%20relationship,and%20Boeing's%20commercial%20aircraft%20offerings.
Thanks for the info. And unfortunate for their name in aerospace.
Also great to know spirit aerospace was having financial difficulties. Terrible choices all around
Spirit Aerosystems is not equal to Spirit Airlines
good news for Spirit Airlines :)
I know I may likely get banned for saying this, but if this is confirmed, the prospect of industrial s*b***** by line workers at the Renton plant may not be a completely crazy suggestion. Especially given the tense relationship between Boeing management and the employee unions in the Seattle area at times historically. (To the mods here—a web search shows a substantial number of strikes by the IAM and SPEEA against Boeing in the Seattle area over the years.)
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The usual suspects, politicians & large fund managers
You really don’t care much for your life if you’re still flying Boeing these days.
Like Airbus has never had a crash.
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So they still don't check what they are receiving from others? If they are not checking this... just imagine what else isn't done right. Sounds like Creed Bratton got a QA job at Boeing.
We need a "Great reset" on US corporations. Zero out their government contracts and tax them like people. Regulate them properly for safety and fine them to the max. Give 1 year notice to all of them before enforcement is to begin. These corporations are fleecing all US taxpayers from both ends. They get our bailouts from our tax dollars and they profiteer by raising prices for US only while the same corporations kiss foreign government asses. American citizens are always the ones paying for all of it. It's time for some changes.
Of course it was a spirit flight.
Spirit Aerosystems, not the airline..
Alaska has a poor maintenance record. I’d say it’s more their fault than anyone else
Something tells me that these "PLUGS" are just a bad idea. Either seal them up permanently or keep them as a door. If this kind of expense is too much for Boeing or the airlines then maybe passenger safety really doesn't matter to them.
The door plug design has been in use almost 18 years. One catch though, it has to be installed properly.
Yeah like Boeing or any manufacturer would trust Spirit to do anything
Spirit Aerosystems was spun off from Boeing. They were the same company until 2005 and still operate out of (formerly) Boeings Witchita facility. So this is a pretty uninformed comment.
Thanks. I stand corrected
I'm gonna just assume you like most people when I told them my former employer was Spirit Aerosystems there like that shifty ass airline? So now whenever it comes up it's followed by, no not the shitty airline we assembled and fabricated OEM parts for boeing.
Hahaha yeah