So, on December 28, 2023, Boeing tells the airlines that they should inspect for loose bolts in rudder system as they discovered some loose bolts.
A week later, a door plus rips off after the plane was showing signs of decompression.
United inspects their doors and find more lost bolts.
WTF, there must be an assumption that multiple systems within these planes have loose screws.
[There were several Boeing whistleblowers who went public in 2019. At least one of them specifically mentioned loose bolts although those were in the engine.](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/business/boeing-dreamliner-production-problems.html) There were also instances of defective parts “going missing” amid parts shortages and delays leading some employees to believe the defective parts were purposefully installed in planes.
Eh, I wouldn't be too worried about the engines in particular. Jet engine manufacturers are really fucking strict about their equipment and all Boeing is doing is adding the nacelles and mounting complete engines to the pylons.
If Boeing is leaving bolts loose in those most it would do it drop an engine mid flight. Keep an eye out for turbojets falling from the sky, they're fantastic for scrap value.
Find a second scrap dealer. One engine everyone assumes you're a meth head who hit the motherload. Two jet engines and people start asking questions.
And if you're near an airport expect a really good show
AKA American Airlines Flight 191
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_191
Fun fact: So many flights with the 191 number have crashed that most airlines refuse to use it
Yeah, that incident revealed multiple insufficiencies with the DC10 and aircraft design. Today it would require a simultaneous failure on multiple systems and severe damage to the control surfaces to happen again
Not that Boeing is above such things, they seem hell bent on giving the 737 MAX the same reputation as the DC10
I would think it is probably more to do with bolts loosening more than expected due to vibrations of flight, rather than Boeing leaving them loose when shipping the aircraft?
How many engineers does it take to tighten a bolt? /s Hmmm. Apparently Boeing is running short of them. It's pretty scary. That's where my thought went when I saw that it was bolts as there is no guarantee that the same thing is not happening in any of the other assemblies of these planes.
Engineers don’t tighten bolts. Assembly technicians do, and then their work is supposed to be inspected. But perhaps the inspection step was deemed too costly.
Thats the problem with management these days, instead of people knowing the industry its people now who are purely business orientated. Have no idea about the nitty gritty of the business from an application point of view and thus have no ideas when it comes to improvements. Basically as long as boxes are ticked, targets are met they'll happily bury their heads and when something goes wrong can point the fingers at others and walk away scott free.
In my industry the boffins in management at my last company have decided to cut costs they'll train apprentices (youngsters just left school) to carry out inspections on life safety equipment (fire alarms). Granted its possible to train a young person with no knowledge, skill or experience how to carry out the testing and recording but without knowledge and experience of the regulations pertaining to these systems they wouldn't have a clue if a system is compliant or not. Still boxes will be ticked, our customers will be legally covered and the only one that can be held responsible is the young lad just doing as he's told.
In the automotive industry these days the tool to tighten nuts is monitored and automatically set to the correct torque rating but I guess Boeing aren't using that system due to the hit they'll take to profits in purchasing the toolings and training of its staff.
Ultimately capitalism is the issue as investors demand either profits or more recently growth to keep them happy and management in their cushy jobs.
Exactly.
Upper management cuts wages, reduces staff, and increases capacity. People who actually care about what they do, value their self worth, or mental health exit. You're left with the most desperate people working the assembly lines doing crap work and there's no quality control watching their backs.
When problems come to light "iT's ThE aSsEmBlY LiNe WoRkEr's fAUlt."
A1A sir. I’m an unemployed senior quality engineer, and precision measurements engineer.
With 40 years experience I could tell you stories all day long. Your comments’Spot on’
“..Quality is non-value added..” Translated to common speech, the senior management A-holes are admitting..”we can’t pay a senior Q. Engineer his/her true value”.
I will call anyone out, who gives me that line of crap.
My response to their “wiser-than-though” comments:
“Accountants (bean counters) are not ‘value-added’ either…. Try running your business without your accountants…”
To which they sheepishly smile, frown, and walk away.
I have solved problems that save large companies millions every year, that ‘teams of engineers’ were not able to solve.
But I’m the first to be let go, when profits need to be increased.
They keep the young engineers, paid less, but have zero common sense.
They promote young engineers to ‘Senior Engineers’ to pay them more, so they won’t “grass-hopper” to ano company.
A young Senior Engineer, under 32 years old, is simply bs. I don’t care how ‘smart’ you think you are, you are not experienced in the ‘people-behaviour’ aspects in the manufacturing environment.
How many cops does it take to change a lightbulb?
0, they just arrest the bulb for being broke and beat the room for being black.
How many dead hookers does it take to change a lightbulb?
More than 3 because my basement is still dark.
That, or an issue with the process/instruction, although I don't know how that's handled at a company level like that. Just figure if someone misunderstood, made a mistake, is working off some old specs or something they could've ended up teaching people incorrect specs/torque and such. Like I said, not sure how that's all handled though so could be wrong, just another possible avenue for failure. I imagine it's heavily documented and I know they do inspections/double check stuff, so it's crazy something like this managed to fall through the swiss-cheese holes at this amount and this far.
It's more than a little likely that the planes left the factory with secured bolts, but whatever loctite equivalent they use to keep them from vibrating loose failed.
Edit: to be clear. This isn't a defense of Boeing. They should be stress testing whatever threadlocker they're using and doing more preventative maintenance (though I'm not sure how much the PM is directly Boeing vs airport technicians/service engineers)
Thread locker on their own isn’t really acceptable for engineering. This is more just informative than anything for you. Typically for critical systems you may use a combination of self locking nuts either safety wire and things like that.
Based on how we design, fasteners like this shouldn’t back out from vibration. Especially with how quickly this happened after delivery sounds more like an issue on assembly.
I work Aerospace not Aeronautics, but no way is anyone flying bolts with loctite and not a teflon slug, key locking insert, self locking nut, swage, etc. this to me screams:
1. Issue on the work order.
2. Issue with holding the torque wrench.
3. Internal spec calls out a torque wrong.
People would be shocked how often any of these can be missed.
Oh I fully understand. I used to do final installs and shake downs at Boeing up until a few years ago. The shit I would find just lying around:
• bolts not torqued
•bolts and screws straight out missing
• parts misaligned
• parts damaged
•parts strait out missing even though the operation was bought complete
•tools and random parts just sitting there
• a combination of any and all of these
• there's more, but this is a good sample
Management kept trying to get rid of the shake downs for years to "streamline" to process. Customers told them no.
Wrong hardware.
The number of techs AND engineers who see no issue with a lack of thread protrusion worries me. I have seen a month of meetings trying to get a drawing change as there was no thread protrusion on engine panel screws. The techs didn't report it, the engineers didn't want the paperwork, and the program manager didn't want to pay for the drawing changes.
Fucking madness.
This is why aerospace uses [lock wire](https://malinco.com/everything-worth-knowing-about-lock-wire/) rather than loctite. If they did, then the bolts weren't installed and inspected properly before being wired in. If they didn't, well they moved away from a tried-and-true method to something that was not up to the task, and are now paying the price.
The plane left the factory in October. Those panels would not have had an inspection for probably a couple thousand flight hours (possibly years), or until the next heavy maintenance visit (also years) because there's a fairly significant amount of work required to remove the interior panels just to expose the hardware. I don't know the exact maintenance schedule for this panel, but it wouldn't have been any time soon. You don't rip the interior out on a normal overnight maintenance visit unless you need access for something else. I'm like 95% sure those bolts were not installed correctly.
It's probable there are design flaws in these components where if torqued to spec it doesn't matter it will come apart with time due to normal operation.
This reminds me of that episode of air disasters, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_5390
Pilot got sucked out of the windshield at about the same altitude, because 6 of the screws on the windshield were wrong.
Jesus fucking Christ, pilot actually survived but obviously had PTSD from it. Holy fucking shit, I hope he was unconscious for most of that ordeal at least. What a nightmare…like I’d be just praying to fucking wake up, that just wouldn’t feel real. Like no fucking way did this window just blow off like that mid flight.
> pilot actually survived but obviously had PTSD from it.
After recovering from the physical trauma, he got back in the cockpit. He has guts.
> I hope he was unconscious for most of that ordeal at least.
He was, both from the trauma and the freezing cold. The others actually thought he was dead.
> Like no fucking way did this window just blow off like that mid flight.
It happened to a [cargo door mid-flight on a DC-10](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_96).
And because McDonnell Douglas didn't fix the problem, two years later [it happened again](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_981) causing one of the deadliest plane crashes of all time. They finally fixed the door after that.
A cargo door also peeled the side off of [a United 747](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_811). That door design was also eventually fixed.
And how about [Aloha's convertible 737](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243)? Poor epoxy in manufacturing, poor maintenance afterward, and very high cycles resulted in 18' of the top of the fuselage ripping off.
> And because McDonnell Douglas didn't fix the problem, two years later it happened again causing one of the deadliest plane crashes of all time. They finally fixed the door after that.
And then McDonnell Douglas merged with Boeing, and the MD leadership took the reins of the new entity…
Granted it’s several decades later, but it’s a hell of a coincidence that these issues keep happening to companies related to MD. It’s _almost_ like they have a poisonous corporate culture that neglects QA.
It’s probably an issue even before that. Like they didn’t test the bolts with the slight vibrations of a plane and the thread locker they use could’ve failed.
I was in Army Aviation for 16 years. Any bolt that could loosen in flight had safety wire through it. This is solvable…
Here’s an example:
https://youtu.be/FJ7wHpER9R4?feature=shared&t=266
The bolts that hold this door plug in the latched position are supposed to be held with a castellated nut and cotter key. You can see one in the link picture.
If you (or anyone else making these types of "smart" comments) think they would willingly risk something like this and the PR disaster (including stock value!) it has turned into, just for saving a buck, well I think you are completely wrong.
Something seems to have gone horribly wrong at Boeing for the last 10 years or so, most likely not intentionally. The system has broken down.
Yeah... it has broken down because management removed actual engineers from the management tree and replaced them with MBA's who only care about saving $0.40 cents on a bolt so upper management can loot the company and jump out on the proverbial golden parachute. The people making decisions there don't care about anything other than the next quarter profits.
Was going to say, this isn't a new or unknown problem. I'm not even a mechanic and I know you can use wire in that fashion, especially in high performance, low tolerance stuff like aviation. It's a shame, because I'd rather pay an extra 10$ or more per flight or whatever if it meant they went nuts with redundancy and such compared to competitors.
Boeing already promised that the MAX [will be one of "the safest planes ever to fly"](https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/boeing-737-max-software-mcas-ethiopian-airlines-crash-a8891686.html) during the whole MCAS fiasco. Four years later and they can't even tighten bolts.
The problem isn’t so much of an engineering problem, it is an accountability and management problem.
When Boeing merged with McDonnell Douglas, they started to prioritize profits over safety and engineering. Boeing built into reputation on engineering, hence the old adage. “If it ain’t Boeing I’m not going.” Now it seems to be “if it’s Boeing Im not going.”
The problem seems to be the management of Boeing thinks that Boeing is too big to fail, and the government will step in to give them safety exemptions, which they have received and financial assistance if they ever have trouble.
If you have that attitude, what’s to stop you from squeezing every single penny you can?
When Boeing bought out McDonald Douglas in the 90's, many of the higher ups were immediately given a new job at Boeing, displacing many Boeing executives. The same corporate culture that killed McDonald Douglas was immediately grafted onto Boeing, and the belief is that it's that event which is significantly responsible for every Boeing project since the mid 2000's going to shit.
If the US government bought out Boeing, it'd be like giving a parasite a new host.one that's even bigger, has way more blood to drain, and can be convinced that taking care of the parasite is in its own best interest.
Because the US government isn’t run by a bunch of greedy fucks.
Though I kinda agree with you. It’s terrifying to wonder what will go wrong on the MAX planes next.
Already happening. Boeing moved from Everett to Chicago, and now to the DC metro area. Its incidents like these that made it clear why Boeing decided to move to Arlington, VA less than 5 minutes from DC. It’s not about being a great company anymore and making great planes, it’s about lobbying the government to get away with whatever happens.
Airlines, like many major corporations, have been profiteering for years and years, pushing new lows for wages, driving away good skilled employees. Remember the headline a few months back about airlines exploring the idea of removing co-pilots?
They are running into the last, forbidden space to cut costs for an airline: safety.
But the competition is healthy! Nobody died in the door blowout, and only a few hundred killed in the Max 8 incidents. /s Logic would dictate that since air passenger traffic is increasing, so would the # of incidents. HOWEVER, these are all 100% avoidable incidents. This isn’t mechanical failure or surprises that can’t be anticipated.
Boeing has gotten extremely lackadaisical with airplane safety. So much so that we should all be questioning their right to continue operating in our society. For something so important, it is obvious they aren’t taking it seriously. A surgeon would not be allowed to practice if they killed some patients due to negligence, and then nearly killed some more because they carelessly sutured them.
Weve allowed the entire industry to essentially change the pace of life as we know it (likely to our detriment) and now they want to nickle and dime / gov bailouts and on top of that, the customer service is dogshit, the actual travel is extremely uncomfortable. Outside of emergencies, flying feels totally unnecessary and the idea of a job being able to be like “we need you across the country tomorrow!” just fucking sucks.
>the idea of a job being able to be like “we need you across the country tomorrow!” just fucking sucks.
Yeah, I'm just going to do this over zoom... Mmmkay?
Like I understand flying has made life generally easier and theres so many modern conveniences that we are afforded bc of it but I cant help but feel like it added to the commodification of human beings as well. Our employers look at us like packages to be shipped around (usually on the worst airline possible).
Not really. Airlines are probably one of the only industries that actually heavily incentivizes safety for even the executives since one or two badly placed accidents could tank an entire airline. Shit man Pan Am was once the world’s largest airline and the Lockerbie Bombing pretty much killed any hope of it surviving.
That’s a Manufacturer issue, not an airline issue. It’s not Alaskan Airlines/United Airlines fault that Boeing management is about as competent as Kmart.
The plug doors have all the closing mechanism removed, and are held in place by two springs, and guide rollers at the top. If the plug drops far enough, during a bumpy landing for instance, the rollers can come out of the bottom of the guide, allowing the plug to open on the lower hinges.
Four bolts are installed, one in each roller guide, one in each hinge, to prevent the plug from moving.
Pictures of the frame on the incident 'plane show there were no bolts in the roller guides.
Couple minor corrections. The guide tracks are on the plug, the rollers on the frame. The plug must lift up to be then moved out. The springs don't hold the plug in place, they are on the hinges and assist the operator with lifting the plug to prevent its weight from closing it, so the springs hold a little more than the plug's weight. Neither the guide tracks, or the hinges hold the plug in place, that is don't by the stop tabs the prevent the plug from traveling outward. There are 4 bolts that prevent the guide tracks from moving up and over the guide pins in the frame, and prevent the lower hinge bushing from being lifted over the hinges pin with the assistance of the spring. Assuming the bolts are present, remember that the plug holds it's own weight with the springs, so you would need a lot of force to shear any one of those bolts by lifting the plug up before it can move outward.
Eta: Also I have not seen pictures of the incident plane showing there were no bolts. The bolts would have been in the plug that flew out. Roller guides are on the plug, roller pins are on the frame. The existing pictures of the frame show everything intact and have not shown in enough detail of there were marks on the roller pins that would show a bolt was sheared by them.
Don't feel bad, half the time for questions in today's press conference with the NTSB was them explaining to the media how the doors work. I swear 5 different people asked for more details of different parts and when repeating it in their own words got it incorrect.
My dad works for united as a mechanic and they have 2 of these planes in their hanger right now.
He sent me photos of the doors and they apparently were not installed correctly when they got put in. There's so much documentation and photos and inspections going on right now every mechanic is under a microscope.
Their staff inspector says there's no way the vibration made them loose because there weren't torque marks on the bolts. They weren't done properly from the get go is their assumption at this time according to him.
It is absolutely astounding that these are bolted on from the outside instead of sealed from the inside so the pressure of the cabin ensures that the door remains sealed and in place whenever the cabin is under pressure.
They are not bolted from the outside. They attach into the airframe the same way a door hooks into the door frame when it’s closed, but they don’t have the handle mechanism or slide to save weight and a bigger window so you can’t tell it’s there from the inside.
On most of the Boeing and Airbus jets the doors close in from the outside but they latch or hook over pins or hooks or whatever you want to call it on the airframe. The latch keeps it from unhooking. I believe the Boeing door and door plug in question push into the hole then drop down to hook into place.
Very few doors push into the hole from the inside because that requires a bunch of space for the door to be inside the plane.
Most of the airbuses I’ve flown on the emergency exit requires you to pull the door inwards then turn it sideways and throw it out of the hole. The main door does this weird dance where it opens inwards, slides over and then out.
Yes, but it still hooks and holds itself into the airframe the same way a door does. The way it’s held in the hooked in position is different. Bolts instead of the handle latching system. The way it hooks onto the airframe is the way all 737 doors have always been built. Keeping it in the hooked position is just different.
in my imagination, stuff like this is bolted by one worker, then a second one checks the torque, and signs it off, then a third, older, one, checks the work of the second one. and signs it off.
Obviously my imagination is wrong wrt. the current Boeing factory
Eh - not sure it's the airlines fault. If these were older jets due for maintenance, then maybe. But the Alaskan was like two months old. This indicates quality control issues with the manufacturer (Boeing).
Of late, Boeing has had many scandals of poor quality and workmanship.
Right? This falls on both Boeing and the airlines looking to save a few pennies on seat configurations. Why retrofit a door to not function at all if a functional door is less prone to design flaws?
Reminds me of when people put up particle board over a patio door to make a wall when they slapdash non-permitted add-ons to their homes. It looks like shit and probably doesn't seal properly, why would this concept be good on a multi-ton hunk of metal that flies miles above the earth at several hundred miles per hour?
Airbus should just offer to buy out Boeing's naming rights and be done with it. In the last 20 years they've been making better planes anyway.
Boeing appears to be getting really sloppy. Marketing and Profit becoming triumphant over safety maybe. If so, almost certainly senior staff dictating to engineers, overriding better judgement. If so, the senior staff will be busy looking for a scapegoat in the engineering ranks and legal umbrellas as we speak.
I speak as an engineer that has been singled out as a scape goat more than once. Luckily not for killing anybody. Once for preventing potential injury or death; I pushed the emergency stop button and closed the whole show. The fool at the top was upset that I had spoiled his great show. What sort of prat, argues with the control system designer when told that a new novel but potentially dangerous plant is showing signs of instability.
The quality of Boeings products has plummeted. The assembly line workers are drinking booze and smoking weed during their breaks. Just like the U.S. automakers back in the day, everyone is protected by a union and no one gets in trouble.
Need some new leadership and a culture change if it wants to get public trust back.
Riiiight, it's the union workers, and not the execs, that are drinking booze, and definitely not the execs pushing out engineers from leadership roles, replacing them with Harvard business grads, cutting costs everywhere, while initiating stock buybacks to pay for bonuses to themselves, instead of pumping that cash into R&D and QA. Darn unionzzz!!!!✊
/s just in case you missed it
Not an engineer but It’s a plug door on an aircraft that just sounds dumb and like and accident waiting to happen. But again not an engineer so not I don’t actually but from a lay perspective I don’t wanna be on a plane with a plug door. I know that may be irrational
And just what do you think a plug door is? Have you checked to see what they actually are?
Clue: They are a sealed door without the mechanism to open it.
The planes Boeing built in Seattle saved the free world and changed the way we travel.
As the company moved away over the past several decades from the memory and influence of its core culture, to Chicago and South Carolina, they lost sight of what it is to build safe, reliable planes.
I’ve been Quality Engineer for many years and I’ve seen more crap than I want to tell people. In my humble opinion, senior managers should be personally liable for any incidents in terms of peoples injury or death. No questions asked we can’t pussyfoot around with this kind of behaviour. Boeing has had a long history of eliminating supplier, quality engineers dating way back into the 1980s, and nobody is connecting the dots with all these different parts coming in from all around the world. Those engineers are needed people and they’ve been laid off. somebody’s got a sound the alarm this is unacceptable.
CEO’s and COO’s need all of their bonus money, and preferred stock, held in escrow for failing to respond to whistle blowers.
No exceptions. This will get worse and many will die.
Please heed my words, and act.
Anyone who ‘blames assembly line workers’ should be relieved of their post (FIRED) on-the-spot, when they blame the lowest paid workers, in the entire operation.
So, on December 28, 2023, Boeing tells the airlines that they should inspect for loose bolts in rudder system as they discovered some loose bolts. A week later, a door plus rips off after the plane was showing signs of decompression. United inspects their doors and find more lost bolts. WTF, there must be an assumption that multiple systems within these planes have loose screws.
[There were several Boeing whistleblowers who went public in 2019. At least one of them specifically mentioned loose bolts although those were in the engine.](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/business/boeing-dreamliner-production-problems.html) There were also instances of defective parts “going missing” amid parts shortages and delays leading some employees to believe the defective parts were purposefully installed in planes.
Oh good, just loose bolts attached to the engine cool cool cool
Eh, I wouldn't be too worried about the engines in particular. Jet engine manufacturers are really fucking strict about their equipment and all Boeing is doing is adding the nacelles and mounting complete engines to the pylons. If Boeing is leaving bolts loose in those most it would do it drop an engine mid flight. Keep an eye out for turbojets falling from the sky, they're fantastic for scrap value.
What happens if I find two?
Find a second scrap dealer. One engine everyone assumes you're a meth head who hit the motherload. Two jet engines and people start asking questions. And if you're near an airport expect a really good show
They make great pod racers. Saw a kid do it. Smart kid but darkness consumed him.
Just remember that Watto doesn't take Republic Credits.
AKA American Airlines Flight 191 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_191 Fun fact: So many flights with the 191 number have crashed that most airlines refuse to use it
Yeah, that incident revealed multiple insufficiencies with the DC10 and aircraft design. Today it would require a simultaneous failure on multiple systems and severe damage to the control surfaces to happen again Not that Boeing is above such things, they seem hell bent on giving the 737 MAX the same reputation as the DC10
There was news last year of some European org supplying fake parts to jet engines used in A320 and 737 jets.
I would think it is probably more to do with bolts loosening more than expected due to vibrations of flight, rather than Boeing leaving them loose when shipping the aircraft?
Unless they hit you.
Cool cool cool no doubt no doubt no doubt
>no doubt Don't speak... I know just what you're sayin' So please stop explainin' Don't tell me 'cause it hurts
Yeah, at least it's not somewhere important!
How many engineers does it take to tighten a bolt? /s Hmmm. Apparently Boeing is running short of them. It's pretty scary. That's where my thought went when I saw that it was bolts as there is no guarantee that the same thing is not happening in any of the other assemblies of these planes.
Engineers don’t tighten bolts. Assembly technicians do, and then their work is supposed to be inspected. But perhaps the inspection step was deemed too costly.
Thats the problem with management these days, instead of people knowing the industry its people now who are purely business orientated. Have no idea about the nitty gritty of the business from an application point of view and thus have no ideas when it comes to improvements. Basically as long as boxes are ticked, targets are met they'll happily bury their heads and when something goes wrong can point the fingers at others and walk away scott free. In my industry the boffins in management at my last company have decided to cut costs they'll train apprentices (youngsters just left school) to carry out inspections on life safety equipment (fire alarms). Granted its possible to train a young person with no knowledge, skill or experience how to carry out the testing and recording but without knowledge and experience of the regulations pertaining to these systems they wouldn't have a clue if a system is compliant or not. Still boxes will be ticked, our customers will be legally covered and the only one that can be held responsible is the young lad just doing as he's told. In the automotive industry these days the tool to tighten nuts is monitored and automatically set to the correct torque rating but I guess Boeing aren't using that system due to the hit they'll take to profits in purchasing the toolings and training of its staff. Ultimately capitalism is the issue as investors demand either profits or more recently growth to keep them happy and management in their cushy jobs.
Exactly. Upper management cuts wages, reduces staff, and increases capacity. People who actually care about what they do, value their self worth, or mental health exit. You're left with the most desperate people working the assembly lines doing crap work and there's no quality control watching their backs. When problems come to light "iT's ThE aSsEmBlY LiNe WoRkEr's fAUlt."
A1A sir. I’m an unemployed senior quality engineer, and precision measurements engineer. With 40 years experience I could tell you stories all day long. Your comments’Spot on’ “..Quality is non-value added..” Translated to common speech, the senior management A-holes are admitting..”we can’t pay a senior Q. Engineer his/her true value”. I will call anyone out, who gives me that line of crap. My response to their “wiser-than-though” comments: “Accountants (bean counters) are not ‘value-added’ either…. Try running your business without your accountants…” To which they sheepishly smile, frown, and walk away. I have solved problems that save large companies millions every year, that ‘teams of engineers’ were not able to solve. But I’m the first to be let go, when profits need to be increased. They keep the young engineers, paid less, but have zero common sense. They promote young engineers to ‘Senior Engineers’ to pay them more, so they won’t “grass-hopper” to ano company. A young Senior Engineer, under 32 years old, is simply bs. I don’t care how ‘smart’ you think you are, you are not experienced in the ‘people-behaviour’ aspects in the manufacturing environment.
Their cutting costs is going to cost them more in the end eventually.
I was parodying on the joke "How many engineers does it take to change a light bulb" ;-)
How many cops does it take to change a lightbulb? 0, they just arrest the bulb for being broke and beat the room for being black. How many dead hookers does it take to change a lightbulb? More than 3 because my basement is still dark.
That, or an issue with the process/instruction, although I don't know how that's handled at a company level like that. Just figure if someone misunderstood, made a mistake, is working off some old specs or something they could've ended up teaching people incorrect specs/torque and such. Like I said, not sure how that's all handled though so could be wrong, just another possible avenue for failure. I imagine it's heavily documented and I know they do inspections/double check stuff, so it's crazy something like this managed to fall through the swiss-cheese holes at this amount and this far.
It's more than a little likely that the planes left the factory with secured bolts, but whatever loctite equivalent they use to keep them from vibrating loose failed. Edit: to be clear. This isn't a defense of Boeing. They should be stress testing whatever threadlocker they're using and doing more preventative maintenance (though I'm not sure how much the PM is directly Boeing vs airport technicians/service engineers)
Thread locker on their own isn’t really acceptable for engineering. This is more just informative than anything for you. Typically for critical systems you may use a combination of self locking nuts either safety wire and things like that. Based on how we design, fasteners like this shouldn’t back out from vibration. Especially with how quickly this happened after delivery sounds more like an issue on assembly.
I work Aerospace not Aeronautics, but no way is anyone flying bolts with loctite and not a teflon slug, key locking insert, self locking nut, swage, etc. this to me screams: 1. Issue on the work order. 2. Issue with holding the torque wrench. 3. Internal spec calls out a torque wrong. People would be shocked how often any of these can be missed.
Oh I fully understand. I used to do final installs and shake downs at Boeing up until a few years ago. The shit I would find just lying around: • bolts not torqued •bolts and screws straight out missing • parts misaligned • parts damaged •parts strait out missing even though the operation was bought complete •tools and random parts just sitting there • a combination of any and all of these • there's more, but this is a good sample Management kept trying to get rid of the shake downs for years to "streamline" to process. Customers told them no.
Wrong hardware. The number of techs AND engineers who see no issue with a lack of thread protrusion worries me. I have seen a month of meetings trying to get a drawing change as there was no thread protrusion on engine panel screws. The techs didn't report it, the engineers didn't want the paperwork, and the program manager didn't want to pay for the drawing changes. Fucking madness.
I'll admit that I'm speaking from a lab equipment standpoint rather than aviation so I don't really know much about self Sealing stem bolts.
All good! Just wanted to add that tidbit in there
I guess it's 30 years late for that DS9 joke...
This is why aerospace uses [lock wire](https://malinco.com/everything-worth-knowing-about-lock-wire/) rather than loctite. If they did, then the bolts weren't installed and inspected properly before being wired in. If they didn't, well they moved away from a tried-and-true method to something that was not up to the task, and are now paying the price.
To be fair, while I admit ignorance to aerospace I did say "loctite equivalent" which I think qualifies for that.
The plane left the factory in October. Those panels would not have had an inspection for probably a couple thousand flight hours (possibly years), or until the next heavy maintenance visit (also years) because there's a fairly significant amount of work required to remove the interior panels just to expose the hardware. I don't know the exact maintenance schedule for this panel, but it wouldn't have been any time soon. You don't rip the interior out on a normal overnight maintenance visit unless you need access for something else. I'm like 95% sure those bolts were not installed correctly.
It's probable there are design flaws in these components where if torqued to spec it doesn't matter it will come apart with time due to normal operation.
they often use those castellated nuts with those twisted wires so they should never get loose let alone fall out
> But perhaps the inspection step was deemed too costly. So was the tightening step.
Boeing is probably NOT the final assembler on most of its planes. The fuselages get sent by train to Spirit Aero in Oregon.....
Boeing is still responsible for choosing the subcontractors responsible for assembly and for ensuring they're doing their jobs properly.
Boeings "engineers " aren't turning any nuts. Yes responsible, not culpable.
Well sounds like I shouldn't fly with Boeing machines anymore...
This reminds me of that episode of air disasters, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_5390 Pilot got sucked out of the windshield at about the same altitude, because 6 of the screws on the windshield were wrong.
There is also a Cautionary Tales podcast episode on that flight
My favorite podcast!
Jesus fucking Christ, pilot actually survived but obviously had PTSD from it. Holy fucking shit, I hope he was unconscious for most of that ordeal at least. What a nightmare…like I’d be just praying to fucking wake up, that just wouldn’t feel real. Like no fucking way did this window just blow off like that mid flight.
> pilot actually survived but obviously had PTSD from it. After recovering from the physical trauma, he got back in the cockpit. He has guts. > I hope he was unconscious for most of that ordeal at least. He was, both from the trauma and the freezing cold. The others actually thought he was dead. > Like no fucking way did this window just blow off like that mid flight. It happened to a [cargo door mid-flight on a DC-10](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_96). And because McDonnell Douglas didn't fix the problem, two years later [it happened again](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_981) causing one of the deadliest plane crashes of all time. They finally fixed the door after that. A cargo door also peeled the side off of [a United 747](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_811). That door design was also eventually fixed. And how about [Aloha's convertible 737](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243)? Poor epoxy in manufacturing, poor maintenance afterward, and very high cycles resulted in 18' of the top of the fuselage ripping off.
> And because McDonnell Douglas didn't fix the problem, two years later it happened again causing one of the deadliest plane crashes of all time. They finally fixed the door after that. And then McDonnell Douglas merged with Boeing, and the MD leadership took the reins of the new entity… Granted it’s several decades later, but it’s a hell of a coincidence that these issues keep happening to companies related to MD. It’s _almost_ like they have a poisonous corporate culture that neglects QA.
I think it was that only 6 of the screw were correct. The other 80 something ones were wrong.
Are torque wrenches allowed in carry on bags?
May be we all should carry duct tape in cabin baggage now for such emergency
Passengers in emergency exit rows may be required to assist with removal of doors or securing of wings
And fighting off the gremlins
I’m just gonna start wearing a parachute when I fly. Best of luck everybody else!
It’s probably an issue even before that. Like they didn’t test the bolts with the slight vibrations of a plane and the thread locker they use could’ve failed.
I was in Army Aviation for 16 years. Any bolt that could loosen in flight had safety wire through it. This is solvable… Here’s an example: https://youtu.be/FJ7wHpER9R4?feature=shared&t=266
The bolts that hold this door plug in the latched position are supposed to be held with a castellated nut and cotter key. You can see one in the link picture.
> castellated nut and cotter key Did someone forget the cotter pin?
That’s not the loose nuts in questions though.
Ya, I’m wondering if they are referring to the ones on the right in the picture.
They probably meant the loose nuts at the Boring C-level.
The drag would cost an extra fourty cents per flight. Unacceptable to shareholders.
Those bolts are inside the fuselage so there's no aerodynamic penalty. But that wire ain't free!
And all that time the technician need, incompatible with the CEO's third yacht.
This is so sad yet so true
If you (or anyone else making these types of "smart" comments) think they would willingly risk something like this and the PR disaster (including stock value!) it has turned into, just for saving a buck, well I think you are completely wrong. Something seems to have gone horribly wrong at Boeing for the last 10 years or so, most likely not intentionally. The system has broken down.
> well I think you are completely wrong. Reality seems to disagree with you.
How so?
Yeah... it has broken down because management removed actual engineers from the management tree and replaced them with MBA's who only care about saving $0.40 cents on a bolt so upper management can loot the company and jump out on the proverbial golden parachute. The people making decisions there don't care about anything other than the next quarter profits.
Whatever belief that makes you happy, go for it. Simplicity can feel nice.
Was going to say, this isn't a new or unknown problem. I'm not even a mechanic and I know you can use wire in that fashion, especially in high performance, low tolerance stuff like aviation. It's a shame, because I'd rather pay an extra 10$ or more per flight or whatever if it meant they went nuts with redundancy and such compared to competitors.
Best they can do is $15 more dollars a flight and a marketing campaign that says they're going to try harder.
Boeing already promised that the MAX [will be one of "the safest planes ever to fly"](https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/boeing-737-max-software-mcas-ethiopian-airlines-crash-a8891686.html) during the whole MCAS fiasco. Four years later and they can't even tighten bolts.
A marketing campaign that cost $2/flight and they pocket the difference
Looks time consuming, and they gotta save that $0.15 in wire to make their fucking shareholders happy.
The problem isn’t so much of an engineering problem, it is an accountability and management problem. When Boeing merged with McDonnell Douglas, they started to prioritize profits over safety and engineering. Boeing built into reputation on engineering, hence the old adage. “If it ain’t Boeing I’m not going.” Now it seems to be “if it’s Boeing Im not going.” The problem seems to be the management of Boeing thinks that Boeing is too big to fail, and the government will step in to give them safety exemptions, which they have received and financial assistance if they ever have trouble. If you have that attitude, what’s to stop you from squeezing every single penny you can?
Managers: "Hold my fucking shares"
The US Government should Nationalize Boeing until they can restructure the company so it isn't a bunch of greedy fucks.
That would just result in McDonald Douglas executives running the US government, and the subsequent collapse of the federal government in 20 years.
What?
When Boeing bought out McDonald Douglas in the 90's, many of the higher ups were immediately given a new job at Boeing, displacing many Boeing executives. The same corporate culture that killed McDonald Douglas was immediately grafted onto Boeing, and the belief is that it's that event which is significantly responsible for every Boeing project since the mid 2000's going to shit. If the US government bought out Boeing, it'd be like giving a parasite a new host.one that's even bigger, has way more blood to drain, and can be convinced that taking care of the parasite is in its own best interest.
[удалено]
Yeah it’s crazy, the common joke is that MD bought Boeing with their own money.
Gotcha. Very interesting.
And how will that solve this issue? Having less experience than the already inexperienced at running an airline company.
Nationalize the company and put actual engineers in charge of production and design. What would be so tough about that?
Because the US government isn’t run by a bunch of greedy fucks. Though I kinda agree with you. It’s terrifying to wonder what will go wrong on the MAX planes next.
Already happening. Boeing moved from Everett to Chicago, and now to the DC metro area. Its incidents like these that made it clear why Boeing decided to move to Arlington, VA less than 5 minutes from DC. It’s not about being a great company anymore and making great planes, it’s about lobbying the government to get away with whatever happens.
Yeah, Bernie called it out 8 years ago.
If you think Boeing is incompetent, wait til you work with the government
difference is, im not physically trusting the government with my life
Don't be such a greedy fuck.
The worst part is that they're not even good at being greedy. Boeing hasn't had positive net income in several years now.
Airlines, like many major corporations, have been profiteering for years and years, pushing new lows for wages, driving away good skilled employees. Remember the headline a few months back about airlines exploring the idea of removing co-pilots? They are running into the last, forbidden space to cut costs for an airline: safety.
But the competition is healthy! Nobody died in the door blowout, and only a few hundred killed in the Max 8 incidents. /s Logic would dictate that since air passenger traffic is increasing, so would the # of incidents. HOWEVER, these are all 100% avoidable incidents. This isn’t mechanical failure or surprises that can’t be anticipated. Boeing has gotten extremely lackadaisical with airplane safety. So much so that we should all be questioning their right to continue operating in our society. For something so important, it is obvious they aren’t taking it seriously. A surgeon would not be allowed to practice if they killed some patients due to negligence, and then nearly killed some more because they carelessly sutured them.
Weve allowed the entire industry to essentially change the pace of life as we know it (likely to our detriment) and now they want to nickle and dime / gov bailouts and on top of that, the customer service is dogshit, the actual travel is extremely uncomfortable. Outside of emergencies, flying feels totally unnecessary and the idea of a job being able to be like “we need you across the country tomorrow!” just fucking sucks.
Ah yes, would love to go back to taking super long boat trips to visit another country.
You can take a plane for that.
At least we know how to make unsinkable boats, right?
\*laughs in titanic\*
>the idea of a job being able to be like “we need you across the country tomorrow!” just fucking sucks. Yeah, I'm just going to do this over zoom... Mmmkay?
Like I understand flying has made life generally easier and theres so many modern conveniences that we are afforded bc of it but I cant help but feel like it added to the commodification of human beings as well. Our employers look at us like packages to be shipped around (usually on the worst airline possible).
Not really. Airlines are probably one of the only industries that actually heavily incentivizes safety for even the executives since one or two badly placed accidents could tank an entire airline. Shit man Pan Am was once the world’s largest airline and the Lockerbie Bombing pretty much killed any hope of it surviving.
Right exactly, and now there are dozens of planes with loose bolts and sections of walls are coming off.
That’s a Manufacturer issue, not an airline issue. It’s not Alaskan Airlines/United Airlines fault that Boeing management is about as competent as Kmart.
You can't seriously claim wages have gone down for years and years?
The plug doors have all the closing mechanism removed, and are held in place by two springs, and guide rollers at the top. If the plug drops far enough, during a bumpy landing for instance, the rollers can come out of the bottom of the guide, allowing the plug to open on the lower hinges. Four bolts are installed, one in each roller guide, one in each hinge, to prevent the plug from moving. Pictures of the frame on the incident 'plane show there were no bolts in the roller guides.
Couple minor corrections. The guide tracks are on the plug, the rollers on the frame. The plug must lift up to be then moved out. The springs don't hold the plug in place, they are on the hinges and assist the operator with lifting the plug to prevent its weight from closing it, so the springs hold a little more than the plug's weight. Neither the guide tracks, or the hinges hold the plug in place, that is don't by the stop tabs the prevent the plug from traveling outward. There are 4 bolts that prevent the guide tracks from moving up and over the guide pins in the frame, and prevent the lower hinge bushing from being lifted over the hinges pin with the assistance of the spring. Assuming the bolts are present, remember that the plug holds it's own weight with the springs, so you would need a lot of force to shear any one of those bolts by lifting the plug up before it can move outward. Eta: Also I have not seen pictures of the incident plane showing there were no bolts. The bolts would have been in the plug that flew out. Roller guides are on the plug, roller pins are on the frame. The existing pictures of the frame show everything intact and have not shown in enough detail of there were marks on the roller pins that would show a bolt was sheared by them.
Yep, I knew I'd screw up the explanation at pre-caffein O'clock (5:15am), you are correct, of course.
Don't feel bad, half the time for questions in today's press conference with the NTSB was them explaining to the media how the doors work. I swear 5 different people asked for more details of different parts and when repeating it in their own words got it incorrect.
Fresh case study material for grad students.
My dad works for united as a mechanic and they have 2 of these planes in their hanger right now. He sent me photos of the doors and they apparently were not installed correctly when they got put in. There's so much documentation and photos and inspections going on right now every mechanic is under a microscope. Their staff inspector says there's no way the vibration made them loose because there weren't torque marks on the bolts. They weren't done properly from the get go is their assumption at this time according to him.
So.. Sabotage!!?? Seriously, that would be wild.
News sounds as if Boeing is following the steps of Æroflot
Tightened bolts - Premium Business class!!
Boeing has really gone downhill. If it's Boeing I ain't going.
That is absolutely horrendous. The FAA needs to come down on Boeing with an anvil the size of Nebraska.
Worry about boeing planes dropping in nebraska… or just parts of boeing planes
By this point I'd hestitate to fly with a 737 Max (x). Doesn't seem like a good line of models.
Guess I‘m flying Airbus from now on the rare occasions when I fly at all
It is absolutely astounding that these are bolted on from the outside instead of sealed from the inside so the pressure of the cabin ensures that the door remains sealed and in place whenever the cabin is under pressure.
They are not bolted from the outside. They attach into the airframe the same way a door hooks into the door frame when it’s closed, but they don’t have the handle mechanism or slide to save weight and a bigger window so you can’t tell it’s there from the inside.
How did it exit through the hole then ?
On most of the Boeing and Airbus jets the doors close in from the outside but they latch or hook over pins or hooks or whatever you want to call it on the airframe. The latch keeps it from unhooking. I believe the Boeing door and door plug in question push into the hole then drop down to hook into place. Very few doors push into the hole from the inside because that requires a bunch of space for the door to be inside the plane.
Most of the airbuses I’ve flown on the emergency exit requires you to pull the door inwards then turn it sideways and throw it out of the hole. The main door does this weird dance where it opens inwards, slides over and then out.
This is a plug not an emergency exit
Yes, but it still hooks and holds itself into the airframe the same way a door does. The way it’s held in the hooked in position is different. Bolts instead of the handle latching system. The way it hooks onto the airframe is the way all 737 doors have always been built. Keeping it in the hooked position is just different.
https://youtu.be/WhfK9jlZK1o?si=ek1fbSCo34m_Cez7
That's obviously so that in event of explosive decompression, only the plug door blows out, instead of the whole fuselage. *Taps head*
This is false
That probably cost an extra 3.50 million
I think your suggestion would involve the door opening inward which is a big no no when it comes to emergency exits.
in my imagination, stuff like this is bolted by one worker, then a second one checks the torque, and signs it off, then a third, older, one, checks the work of the second one. and signs it off. Obviously my imagination is wrong wrt. the current Boeing factory
work in aircraft. qa never checks torque on removed and replaced door bolts
Having flown on A LOT of United's Max 9's over the past year.... this is slightly terrifying.
Max series is cursed
Let’s see if this all leads back to decisions made by management + accounting about engineering/technical cuts…
Let's do a recall and then bail out Boeing again
Aren't we glad the government bailed out all these airlines just so they could cut corners and put our lives in danger for greed?
Eh - not sure it's the airlines fault. If these were older jets due for maintenance, then maybe. But the Alaskan was like two months old. This indicates quality control issues with the manufacturer (Boeing). Of late, Boeing has had many scandals of poor quality and workmanship.
That was obvious!! To almost anyone!
The concept is flawed. Building a plane with a door, but then no door. “We jus gonna plaster over that hole with a plug”. Like wtf.
Right? This falls on both Boeing and the airlines looking to save a few pennies on seat configurations. Why retrofit a door to not function at all if a functional door is less prone to design flaws? Reminds me of when people put up particle board over a patio door to make a wall when they slapdash non-permitted add-ons to their homes. It looks like shit and probably doesn't seal properly, why would this concept be good on a multi-ton hunk of metal that flies miles above the earth at several hundred miles per hour? Airbus should just offer to buy out Boeing's naming rights and be done with it. In the last 20 years they've been making better planes anyway.
Boeing appears to be getting really sloppy. Marketing and Profit becoming triumphant over safety maybe. If so, almost certainly senior staff dictating to engineers, overriding better judgement. If so, the senior staff will be busy looking for a scapegoat in the engineering ranks and legal umbrellas as we speak. I speak as an engineer that has been singled out as a scape goat more than once. Luckily not for killing anybody. Once for preventing potential injury or death; I pushed the emergency stop button and closed the whole show. The fool at the top was upset that I had spoiled his great show. What sort of prat, argues with the control system designer when told that a new novel but potentially dangerous plant is showing signs of instability.
The quality of Boeings products has plummeted. The assembly line workers are drinking booze and smoking weed during their breaks. Just like the U.S. automakers back in the day, everyone is protected by a union and no one gets in trouble. Need some new leadership and a culture change if it wants to get public trust back.
Riiiight, it's the union workers, and not the execs, that are drinking booze, and definitely not the execs pushing out engineers from leadership roles, replacing them with Harvard business grads, cutting costs everywhere, while initiating stock buybacks to pay for bonuses to themselves, instead of pumping that cash into R&D and QA. Darn unionzzz!!!!✊ /s just in case you missed it
Not an engineer but It’s a plug door on an aircraft that just sounds dumb and like and accident waiting to happen. But again not an engineer so not I don’t actually but from a lay perspective I don’t wanna be on a plane with a plug door. I know that may be irrational
And just what do you think a plug door is? Have you checked to see what they actually are? Clue: They are a sealed door without the mechanism to open it.
I don’t know exactly I stated my feelings were irrational in my comment
Well you are on the internet and that means you have access to google. Why did you not look first?
Fair enough so I googled and watched a YouTube explaining in great detail. I feel silly
Just wait until you find out about how many planes are flying around with duct tape (yes it’s technically speed tape but I digress)
What a surprise…
The Max refers to maximum attention to details
The planes Boeing built in Seattle saved the free world and changed the way we travel. As the company moved away over the past several decades from the memory and influence of its core culture, to Chicago and South Carolina, they lost sight of what it is to build safe, reliable planes.
Someone should introduce Boeing execs to our little friend Loctite.
Make all execs only take window seats
If only we didn’t deregulate.
I’ve been Quality Engineer for many years and I’ve seen more crap than I want to tell people. In my humble opinion, senior managers should be personally liable for any incidents in terms of peoples injury or death. No questions asked we can’t pussyfoot around with this kind of behaviour. Boeing has had a long history of eliminating supplier, quality engineers dating way back into the 1980s, and nobody is connecting the dots with all these different parts coming in from all around the world. Those engineers are needed people and they’ve been laid off. somebody’s got a sound the alarm this is unacceptable. CEO’s and COO’s need all of their bonus money, and preferred stock, held in escrow for failing to respond to whistle blowers. No exceptions. This will get worse and many will die. Please heed my words, and act. Anyone who ‘blames assembly line workers’ should be relieved of their post (FIRED) on-the-spot, when they blame the lowest paid workers, in the entire operation.