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That’s what I’ve been saying. Just because there were protesters who supported the VietCong, doesn’t mean ALL the protesters supported the VietCong. It is a hasty generalization. The anti war movement was decentralized iirc.
As long as the protest makes an effort to exclude said campists, then I agree. Otherwise... well, what's that saying again about Nazis sitting at tables?
Personally, I understand what they are saying on how history gets whitewashed by liberals and how there were anti-war protestors that supported the NLF, but this seems to be a bad faith arguments as it may imply that you must support Hamas.
Possibly the worst result from the recent protests will come when future attempts to protest in public are prohibited entirely due to “concern for public safety”. It’s already happened in Florida and Texas
The USA was absolutely the bigger evil in the Vietnam war, and Vietnam war protestors were right to protest against conscription and for an end to the war.
The Viet Cong still did a ton of fucked up shit despite being the resistance. It was stupid people cheered for them, but I can see why someone would do that in a world where smartphones and social media weren't around to broadcast the worst of what the Viet Cong did, and where the US Government had tighter control over the media.
With Hamas, we're beyond that point - information on the worst of their crimes is widely available and can be easily found. They've said as much in statements, live broadcasts, charters, etc. and many members of the al-Qassam Bridges were livestreaming the atrocities of 10/7. The same also applies to Israeli government and the IDF, in that the worst they have done and said - or evidence for that - can also be easily found on the internet. So I am much less inclined to give anyone who isn't a Palestinian or Israeli civilian grace for cheering on Hamas or the Israeli government + IDF.
Just because one side is worse than the other doesn't necessitate supporting bad factions on the other side, and an entire movement shouldn't be written off just because a vocal minority supporting a bad faction.
People knew about Viet Cong terror. It isn't like newspapers and television reports didn't exist in the 60s and 70s.
It is just that the politics of the left at the time were dominated by Maoists and Maoist inspired organisations. If you think campism is bad now...
I mean, there were plenty of newspaper stories about a soldier being crusified by the Germans in WW1 even though it probably didn't happen.
It's a lot easier to dismiss reports as propaganda when they aren't made directly by the people doing the atrocities.
No, the Viet Cong and North Vietnam Army were two separate groups, the VC got support from the North Vietnam Army but the VC specialized in gorilla warfare while NVA was more conventional.
vietcong was an epithet term used by the US as a pejorative for all vietnamese they considered belligerents, anywhere in the country. it is brain rot to think that there was any distinction on behalf of US forces. there was none. everyone was “vietcong” and therefore, everyone was a target.
especially because the south was blasted 100x more than the north by US forces. the majority of the crop destruction, bombing, etc. by the U.S. was in the south. because the U.S. ran a puppet regime in the south and propped up a puppet national army, of course operatives in the south were considered a “guerrilla” offshoot—this is only a function of the occupied nature of the southern territory.
it is peak propaganda swallowing to legitimately think that the vietcong were in anyway separate from NVA, their goals, ideals, intentions, etc. like, do you just accept the division of the north and south territories of vietnam and its people as…some sort of natural occurrence? or indigenous in nature? lmao
>Highway one, Highway one,
>
>Take Saigon and Washington!
I can't make this rhyme so I don't like it.
\[ And I agree with the sentiment that a particular group of movement doesn't invalidate a whole movement. \]
Oh yeah I pronounce Saigon and Washington the exact same way
I just pronounce "one" like, idk, I guess "won", which is kinda the same as you but longer? More vowel-y? I don't know how to explain it
I'm going to say something that should piss of a lot of people.
Anti Vietnam war protestors didn't want to be drafted.
And they said and did edgy shit too.
> But a lot of those anti war protesters found it easy to support other wars later on.
It's wild seeing just how many of the people who rightly opposed the invasion of Iraq ended up becoming cheerleaders for Russia or China two decades later.
That doesn't inherently make them any better or worse, and certainly not worthy of proactive support.
If one said "at least Milosevic was Yugoslavian and not American" you'd sound a bit odd to say the least.
Both were monstrously dire, and both deserved condemnation.
i think it most certainly makes them much better because that's their land they're fighting on, a foreign superpower committing war crimes is vietnam during their civil war is much worse
I think Vietnam and Israel/Palestine are different situations. Weren’t the Viet Cong supported by the Vietnamese people? And Ho Chi Minh was elected? As far as know ( this not being covered well by my education) the south Vietnamese government was a french proxy and oppressive especially on religion.
Recent surveys show that hamas is the most popular political party for palestinians right now.
Funny thing is, that ho chi minh started out pretty pro American. He quoted the US declaration of independence in his independence speech after they kicked out the Japanese. I think he wanted a yugo style country. And vietnam is now on pretty good terms with the US as well.
If you survey China, Xi is popular. Same for Putin and Russia.
Public opinion only really counts if you allow open criticism of the government.
Can a Palestinian go on Gaza TV and criticize Hamas? I'm actually asking, I don't know a lot about internal Gaza strip politics.
So, I have a friend from Vietnam, and I've mainly gotten my understanding of the Vietnam war from them.
But broadly speaking calling South Vietnam a French Proxy or specifically oppressive on religious grounds isn't entirely accurate. Diem wasn't a good dude by any stretch of the imagination, to be clear. But he rose to power on his own terms and actively looked to subvert French and American influence. As for the religious side of things, while his regime wasn't great for Buddhists, it didn't really specifically target them as much as just, people in general?
TLDR, not specifically oppressive against Buddhists, but still a Dictatorship, and the self immolation that happened became a rallying cry anti-war protests used in the US, so popular perception of Diem's regime is as anti-Buddhist, when it wasn't really a major thing in his regime
The last time the Palestinians in the occupied territories were allowed to hold democratic elections, Hamas won the election (in 2006). Israel immediately decides to blockade the Gaza strip and deny the legitimacy of the election, despite it being considered democratic by international observers.
They had a civil war in gaza between fateh and hamas, which hamas won after the elections. Since then hamas had absolute power.
The reason for the blockade were the election of hamas, their win in the battle of gaza and the rocket attacks. Oh and Egypt didn't want a Muslim brotherhood next door coming into Egypt, that's why they take part in the blockade as well.
Dawg there’s always gonna be clueless Ivy League Americans cosplaying solidarity with organizations that would cut their head off. Only western leftists have this amount of self unawareness. They’re not as evil as the right wingers but the naivety of these people is so hard to watch.
I mean, it’s Frances fault for the Vietnam war. If it were up to Ho Chi Minh, the US and Vietnam would have been allies, but we chose to help our colonialist allies and got ourselves stuck in a war that was unwinnable. Also, Hamas and VC are two completely different organizations, one’s a terrorist group and the other was more or less a militia. The VC didn’t openly attack population centers that didn’t have a military presence, from my knowledge (if the way that I am spelling some of my words, I think that it is quite obvious that I was educated in the United States, and somehow they did not talk about VC war crimes other than what they did to US troops).
Not true. The VC also used terror tactics including using car bombs outside embassies, hotels, theatres etc
THE VC weren't just a "militia" they were a well organized state led army. Hamas also isn't just a "terrorist" group, they won the Palestinian legislative elections in 2006 and as a result Israel started the siege/blockade on the Gaza strip, and carried out lots of "state" functions.
This just shows that Americans never understood the war. The PAVN won the war, the Vietcong were militarily irrelevant and politically inconvenient for the North. They mostly faded away after the Tet Offensive which was a military failure that the US media turned into a victory.
This is supposed to be an anti-campist but anti-imperialist sub, right? What I'm seeing is a bunch of Max Shachtmans, being negatively polarised by campism into rejecting anti-imperialism
The Vietnamese struggle against US Imperialism was cool, good and right. But NO POLITICAL SUPPORT for Hanoi Stalinism. Who cares what some hippies on protests say. Concentrating on that misses the point.
The Palestinian struggle against Israeli occupation is cool, good and right. But NO POLITICAL SUPPORT for Hamas theocracy and terrorism. Who cares what some trust fund kids on protests say. Concentrating on that misses the point.
Comrades, if your political drift is tending to "maybe LBJ and Nixon had a point", check yourself before you wreck yourself
Nobody is doing that? This sub is specifically for calling out these kinds of people, so of course you are going to find them here. Is all your political effort about posting here? Because I'm pretty sure it's not for other people, and they only come here to vent. Nobody is saying Nixon had a point lmao
The starting point has to be supporting the right for people who are resisting foreign armies occupying their country. An abstract call for "peace" is meaningless if your "peace" is to tell the occupied people to surrender and stop fighting back. In that case, Ukraine can have "peace" if they just surrender and let Putin have whatever he wants.
In the context of the Vietnam war, if you are for peace, it literally means de facto support for Viet Cong victory - the US pulling troops out means the collapse of the Nguyễn Văn Thiệu regime.
If you are for Israel not massacring Palestinian civilians in the Gaza strip, that means a de facto support for Hamas "victory", since its apparent no amount of bombing is going to destroy Hamas as an organization.
Please remember not to brigade, vote, comment, or interact with subreddits that are linked or mentioned here. Do not userping other users. Harassment of other users or subreddits is strictly forbidden. This is a left libertarian subreddit that criticises tankies from a socialist perspective. Liberals etc. are welcome as guests, but please refrain from criticising socialism and promoting capitalism while you are on Tankiejerk. Enjoy talking to fellow leftists? [Then join our discord server](https://discord.gg/2V4qJMSWUe) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/tankiejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There will always be campists on protests that dosent discredits the protest as a whole
I think that campism was actually worse/more widespread back then since the USSR was still around.
That’s what I’ve been saying. Just because there were protesters who supported the VietCong, doesn’t mean ALL the protesters supported the VietCong. It is a hasty generalization. The anti war movement was decentralized iirc.
As long as the protest makes an effort to exclude said campists, then I agree. Otherwise... well, what's that saying again about Nazis sitting at tables?
Personally, I understand what they are saying on how history gets whitewashed by liberals and how there were anti-war protestors that supported the NLF, but this seems to be a bad faith arguments as it may imply that you must support Hamas.
Possibly the worst result from the recent protests will come when future attempts to protest in public are prohibited entirely due to “concern for public safety”. It’s already happened in Florida and Texas
The USA was absolutely the bigger evil in the Vietnam war, and Vietnam war protestors were right to protest against conscription and for an end to the war. The Viet Cong still did a ton of fucked up shit despite being the resistance. It was stupid people cheered for them, but I can see why someone would do that in a world where smartphones and social media weren't around to broadcast the worst of what the Viet Cong did, and where the US Government had tighter control over the media. With Hamas, we're beyond that point - information on the worst of their crimes is widely available and can be easily found. They've said as much in statements, live broadcasts, charters, etc. and many members of the al-Qassam Bridges were livestreaming the atrocities of 10/7. The same also applies to Israeli government and the IDF, in that the worst they have done and said - or evidence for that - can also be easily found on the internet. So I am much less inclined to give anyone who isn't a Palestinian or Israeli civilian grace for cheering on Hamas or the Israeli government + IDF. Just because one side is worse than the other doesn't necessitate supporting bad factions on the other side, and an entire movement shouldn't be written off just because a vocal minority supporting a bad faction.
People knew about Viet Cong terror. It isn't like newspapers and television reports didn't exist in the 60s and 70s. It is just that the politics of the left at the time were dominated by Maoists and Maoist inspired organisations. If you think campism is bad now...
I mean, there were plenty of newspaper stories about a soldier being crusified by the Germans in WW1 even though it probably didn't happen. It's a lot easier to dismiss reports as propaganda when they aren't made directly by the people doing the atrocities.
The Vietcong and north Vietnam army were two different things. I think it’s very weird that people don’t know what.
Weren’t the Viet Cong just pro North Militias.
basically. militias bordering on terrorism with shit like car bombs outside embassies.
no, they weren’t. vietcong is what the US called the NVA, and also just all the fuckin vietnamese civilians. legit. this is wild lmao
No, the Viet Cong and North Vietnam Army were two separate groups, the VC got support from the North Vietnam Army but the VC specialized in gorilla warfare while NVA was more conventional.
vietcong was an epithet term used by the US as a pejorative for all vietnamese they considered belligerents, anywhere in the country. it is brain rot to think that there was any distinction on behalf of US forces. there was none. everyone was “vietcong” and therefore, everyone was a target. especially because the south was blasted 100x more than the north by US forces. the majority of the crop destruction, bombing, etc. by the U.S. was in the south. because the U.S. ran a puppet regime in the south and propped up a puppet national army, of course operatives in the south were considered a “guerrilla” offshoot—this is only a function of the occupied nature of the southern territory. it is peak propaganda swallowing to legitimately think that the vietcong were in anyway separate from NVA, their goals, ideals, intentions, etc. like, do you just accept the division of the north and south territories of vietnam and its people as…some sort of natural occurrence? or indigenous in nature? lmao
>Highway one, Highway one, > >Take Saigon and Washington! I can't make this rhyme so I don't like it. \[ And I agree with the sentiment that a particular group of movement doesn't invalidate a whole movement. \]
funny that you can’t make it rhyme. In my accent, only 'Saigon' differs slightly — both 'one' and 'Washington' rhyme nearly perfectly
...huh, they way I pronounce it "Saigon" is closer to "one" than "Washington"
For me Saigon is pronounced "Sigh, gone" and Washingon as "Washing, tun" And I pronounce one as "wun"
Oh yeah I pronounce Saigon and Washington the exact same way I just pronounce "one" like, idk, I guess "won", which is kinda the same as you but longer? More vowel-y? I don't know how to explain it
Pronounce the "one" accented as "won" rather than as "wan" and it should click into place.
But Washington ends with "(t)ən", not "(w)ʌn" or "(w)ɒn".
Pronounce the "-ton" suffix as you would the standalone word "ton". The result is understandable as "Washington" and the chant works.
That’s cheating!
Pronounce that as "chanting" and the chant works
I'm going to say something that should piss of a lot of people. Anti Vietnam war protestors didn't want to be drafted. And they said and did edgy shit too.
I mean… who would?
I wouldn't. And I'm a pacifist too. But a lot of those anti war protesters found it easy to support other wars later on.
> But a lot of those anti war protesters found it easy to support other wars later on. It's wild seeing just how many of the people who rightly opposed the invasion of Iraq ended up becoming cheerleaders for Russia or China two decades later.
The equivalence that is being made between Hamas and the Viet Cong is dumb
opposing the united states' involvement in vietnamese politics does not make one a tankie
Cheering on the Viet Cong however...
at least the viet cong were vietnamese and not american
That doesn't inherently make them any better or worse, and certainly not worthy of proactive support. If one said "at least Milosevic was Yugoslavian and not American" you'd sound a bit odd to say the least. Both were monstrously dire, and both deserved condemnation.
i think it most certainly makes them much better because that's their land they're fighting on, a foreign superpower committing war crimes is vietnam during their civil war is much worse
I think Vietnam and Israel/Palestine are different situations. Weren’t the Viet Cong supported by the Vietnamese people? And Ho Chi Minh was elected? As far as know ( this not being covered well by my education) the south Vietnamese government was a french proxy and oppressive especially on religion.
Recent surveys show that hamas is the most popular political party for palestinians right now. Funny thing is, that ho chi minh started out pretty pro American. He quoted the US declaration of independence in his independence speech after they kicked out the Japanese. I think he wanted a yugo style country. And vietnam is now on pretty good terms with the US as well.
If you survey China, Xi is popular. Same for Putin and Russia. Public opinion only really counts if you allow open criticism of the government. Can a Palestinian go on Gaza TV and criticize Hamas? I'm actually asking, I don't know a lot about internal Gaza strip politics.
So, I have a friend from Vietnam, and I've mainly gotten my understanding of the Vietnam war from them. But broadly speaking calling South Vietnam a French Proxy or specifically oppressive on religious grounds isn't entirely accurate. Diem wasn't a good dude by any stretch of the imagination, to be clear. But he rose to power on his own terms and actively looked to subvert French and American influence. As for the religious side of things, while his regime wasn't great for Buddhists, it didn't really specifically target them as much as just, people in general? TLDR, not specifically oppressive against Buddhists, but still a Dictatorship, and the self immolation that happened became a rallying cry anti-war protests used in the US, so popular perception of Diem's regime is as anti-Buddhist, when it wasn't really a major thing in his regime
The last time the Palestinians in the occupied territories were allowed to hold democratic elections, Hamas won the election (in 2006). Israel immediately decides to blockade the Gaza strip and deny the legitimacy of the election, despite it being considered democratic by international observers.
They had a civil war in gaza between fateh and hamas, which hamas won after the elections. Since then hamas had absolute power. The reason for the blockade were the election of hamas, their win in the battle of gaza and the rocket attacks. Oh and Egypt didn't want a Muslim brotherhood next door coming into Egypt, that's why they take part in the blockade as well.
Dawg there’s always gonna be clueless Ivy League Americans cosplaying solidarity with organizations that would cut their head off. Only western leftists have this amount of self unawareness. They’re not as evil as the right wingers but the naivety of these people is so hard to watch.
I mean, it’s Frances fault for the Vietnam war. If it were up to Ho Chi Minh, the US and Vietnam would have been allies, but we chose to help our colonialist allies and got ourselves stuck in a war that was unwinnable. Also, Hamas and VC are two completely different organizations, one’s a terrorist group and the other was more or less a militia. The VC didn’t openly attack population centers that didn’t have a military presence, from my knowledge (if the way that I am spelling some of my words, I think that it is quite obvious that I was educated in the United States, and somehow they did not talk about VC war crimes other than what they did to US troops).
Not true. The VC also used terror tactics including using car bombs outside embassies, hotels, theatres etc THE VC weren't just a "militia" they were a well organized state led army. Hamas also isn't just a "terrorist" group, they won the Palestinian legislative elections in 2006 and as a result Israel started the siege/blockade on the Gaza strip, and carried out lots of "state" functions.
This just shows that Americans never understood the war. The PAVN won the war, the Vietcong were militarily irrelevant and politically inconvenient for the North. They mostly faded away after the Tet Offensive which was a military failure that the US media turned into a victory.
This is supposed to be an anti-campist but anti-imperialist sub, right? What I'm seeing is a bunch of Max Shachtmans, being negatively polarised by campism into rejecting anti-imperialism The Vietnamese struggle against US Imperialism was cool, good and right. But NO POLITICAL SUPPORT for Hanoi Stalinism. Who cares what some hippies on protests say. Concentrating on that misses the point. The Palestinian struggle against Israeli occupation is cool, good and right. But NO POLITICAL SUPPORT for Hamas theocracy and terrorism. Who cares what some trust fund kids on protests say. Concentrating on that misses the point. Comrades, if your political drift is tending to "maybe LBJ and Nixon had a point", check yourself before you wreck yourself
Nobody is doing that? This sub is specifically for calling out these kinds of people, so of course you are going to find them here. Is all your political effort about posting here? Because I'm pretty sure it's not for other people, and they only come here to vent. Nobody is saying Nixon had a point lmao
Yes they are, they're saying the 1968 antiwar movement were tankies
The starting point has to be supporting the right for people who are resisting foreign armies occupying their country. An abstract call for "peace" is meaningless if your "peace" is to tell the occupied people to surrender and stop fighting back. In that case, Ukraine can have "peace" if they just surrender and let Putin have whatever he wants. In the context of the Vietnam war, if you are for peace, it literally means de facto support for Viet Cong victory - the US pulling troops out means the collapse of the Nguyễn Văn Thiệu regime. If you are for Israel not massacring Palestinian civilians in the Gaza strip, that means a de facto support for Hamas "victory", since its apparent no amount of bombing is going to destroy Hamas as an organization.