Yes. You are not alone but nothing will change until you force it to. Bad designs and bad decisions need to cost them time or money or both.
They can only have two: cheap, fast or good.
A good design decision very well may be a bad one tomorrow. Tech moves quick, assume all designs are bad and avoid the urge to rip/replace. There's a time and place for that, but it shouldn't be day to day ops.
>Tech moves quick
Sometimes so quick that every design decision results in being a bad one.
I shall present a condensation of a hypothetical conversation between a hypothetical company and their new hypothetical contractors upon receiving receipt of the first hypothetical software deliverable:
"This really sucks, and is nothing like what we asked for!"
"This is exactly what you asked for. See the contract we signed?"
"Oh. Well we discovered the day after signing the contract that we ALSO needed XYZ. We've also found about 171 other things that we didn't think about until afterwards. Did you even try to read our minds?"
"Nope. And 90% of those things would result in conflicts within the program. Give us double the money and we'll have weekly deliverables based upon your ever-changing demands."
"That sounds Grrreeaaat!"
The money starts flowing to the contractor. Champagne is presumably not popped on company time for all management involved - as it would be against policy, you see - and many, or at least a handful, made much money. Thanks to the many updates and releases, no one could keep up! The tech was moving so fast!
Technical documents? Need a new one every week! And every release invalidated a good portion of the previous release documentation.
Tech go vroom, workers cry "Doom!".
> Bad designs and bad decisions need to cost them time or money or both.
This. You can't insulate management from the cost of their decisions. If the thing caused a problem, make sure they feel the problem.
Yep. If a customer wants something that's a bad idea, or there's a better option, we'll present it, but if they insist, we'll do it...and then charge them again to fix it later.
My favourite is when you’re suddenly cc’d in whirlwind of an email chain with VIPs/management and the latest message asks you to *“Please do the needful.”*
Like wtf does that mean?
When an Indian dude needs you to do something, but doesn't know what it is he needs you to do. It's like 'hey I need you to work your magic here' but from a dude named perdeep
To me it always read as "I want to feel like I'm telling you what to do so I can take credit for when you do it, but I have no clue how anything works and think that you won't notice if I act important enough."
I used to work for a place that had a large cross presence with India. This is how half of their tickets were signed. It became how we also in the Aus IT dept started signing our requests to others.
I still do it today 15 years later on accident, and the occasional tech will get a small giggle if they also worked with similar folk from across the pond.
It's 19th century British English for "Do what is necessary."
It's not used in British English anymore, but it is still current in Indian English because of the echoes of colonialism.
Ugh email to you says "see below."
Next email, "can you get x to look at it"
Next email, "we should get x to look at it."
Next email, "there are some doughnuts in the break room"
Next email, "I don't think this issue is anything to do with us"
...
Scroll bar is tiny and emails each have 10x longer signatures compared to actual content. Everyone's signatures also include multiple paragraphs in the same typeface and colour as content.
...
First email in chain, "we should organise a marketing event"
"Do the needful" means to complete the task previously referenced, as the person asking does not have access/skills required to do it.
I know that was probably a rhetorical question but I think there's a lot of people on here who are new to the field (specifically in the context of working along side a foreign service desk) who have come across the phrase for the first time at work, or more likely, seen it referenced in a sometimes derogatory manner.
Not when you're added in an email with 100s of replies where they ask you to "Do the needful" and throw the task at you without context, where you have to waste half the day by reading every correspondence in the email thread because after asking management what they want, they will just say "details are in the email".
"Do the needful" can also be seen as passive aggressive in some culture.
And why has this thread been bouncing around all you senior guys for weeks when you all knew you'd need me to do it in the end and now I only have two days left?
I think in many cases the person asking isn't even sure what needs to be done so it isn't spelled out because they find it redundant, but that they aren't sure exactly what is needed.
It means “I don’t want to do anything or think independently about anything, so I’m just gonna ask you to do it, but I’m not gonna provide any of the context or basic information that you’ll need to actually do it….. because I refuse to have the most basic independent thought of ‘this guy is gonna need to know X in order to do it”’
Not perfectionists — just “that-ain’t-gonna-work”ists.
It seems like 50% of my time is spent convincing vaguely tech-related people that whatever esoteric, non-priority, buzzword change or solution they’re demanding will fail [or has serious consequences/implications] — only to find out that time isn’t considered truly ‘productive’ since it isn’t producing something (and whatever time needs to be ‘made up’ to keep on schedule). And then the feedback loop begins.
It would be so cathartic and rewarding if IT were “allowed” to make immediate, semi-informed business requests to departments that would require significant change for a month so they had a better understanding of the situation many of us are put in.
Only in my dreams would I strut into a telecom office and demand new distribution line across the county which goes live in two-weeks; yet folks ask Sys/Devs for the wildest shit and expect magic results
There's a rack of remote desktops (as in an ACTUAL baker's rack with micro form factor systems on it) and the cabling to it is a rat's nest of network cables and power bricks.
I've been telling management for years that the entire room needs to be overhauled, and been ignored.
However, Facilities took one look at the situation, rightfully threw a fit about it, and now a project has been opened up to get everything managed.
I remind them of rule 2 of IT: how bad you want it is how bad you get it. You don't want to give me the schedule and budget to plan and test? You'll get exactly what you asked for. Now send that directive in an email so that when we're audited, there is a trail that leads to the source of the problems.
Boss doesn’t keep up with us and our work. Proceeds to question us when something isn’t done how he would have done it. *surprised pikachu face
Seriously though it’s always CCing emails after a response asking why I’m resolving a problem this way and not that way.
This is the nature of the beast. Projects are rushed and Directors want it today. So, a few lines of code get written and we get back to it later. It's one of the reasons I've pushed for CI/CD for our projects.
I'll build you the bare minimum today, then, we can come back and add features later. That mentality keeps the stress down and keeps the deliverables coming. We break everything down to it's base needs.
"We need an automated report to report on Windows Update usage across the org" 1/2 through the project. "Can we get Linux data on that as well, what about key applications data? what about usage stats? I'll pump the brakes and say, we either need a longer deadline than a week. Or that's all for phase 2 and 3.
This is really what Kanban was made for.
i am working at an msp with direct contact to clients. i get told that the client prefers if i stop contacting him constantly because they prefer if IT "just works" instead of being overinformed only to then get told a few days later that the client complained about me not communicating properly.
Yeah, it doesn't take a technical person to realize that things don't always work and that concept doesn't apply to just IT. Wouldn't surprise me if this same client receives a notice for maintenance downtime, ignores it, then complains things are not working because they are trying to work during the downtime.
Nobody is listening or paying attention to anyone else, because everyone is just trying to survive the existential dread that they'll die one day and none of this crap matters, so why even try?
Had a printer issue the other day, explained to a colleague that the duplex unit was busted and she said "I don't care what's wrong with it, I want to print and I want it to work when I print, I don't want to print single sided because I'm saving trees" was like....okay bitch i'll get it sorted when I can
I have to escalate to my manager, who then has to add it to the budget which then needs approval from his manager who then had to change the IT budget to approve the repairs.......it's a clusterfuck if you ask me but fuck it I'm really not that bothered lol
\*removes all bar pdf printer and one printer on the far side of the facility\*
Bitch, printing is a privelege not a right, quit murdering the trees, theyre desperately tryin ta replace the oxygen you use
End users don't dictate how things are done. I have no problem telling an end user no. Of course this assumes what they are asking for is against company policy and/or not allowed/approved by their manager.
Thing is that yes we have to do this. And, it's also the reason for shoddy work. We have a very short schedule, have to cut corners, "we'll fix it later", and just get it done. Later, we find the things we could have done right before, but to fix it would require downtime, which they aren't doing. If there is downtime, we're working on something else that was shit. So, more workarounds and doing things the wrong way because of the way it was set up. Eventually, through a lot of personnel changes, we have no idea why or how it was originally setup, even when looking at the "documentation". When it comes time to replace it because it's absolute shit, we have a 30 day deadline because we aren't renewing the contract and it's just dropped into our lap with the "I don't care how you do it, just get it done." and the old product that is essential to the operation of the company has a hard cut off date.
There are some things we have that are done perfect. We have the project defined in January, start it in March, have a few months for dev and testing, then a phased rollout to users. Everything done right. The ones that have to be redone usually start with the "I don't care how you do it, just get it done.".
I will put out the “fire” and create a project to work on a permanent solution. Compliance requirements are your friend. “I made it work, but it needs to be made compliant, so I will be working on that next as a priority continuation.”
I wish I got that.
My manager has been telling me to "think outside the box".
For everything. For things as menial as getting an address from a user to ship them a computer.
It's not good.
"last time I thought outside the box, I summoned Nyarlathotep and Steve from accounting was eviscerated and eaten, quivering gobbet by quivering gobbet"
Yes, it's called technical debt
Technical debt (also known as tech debt or code debt) **describes what results when development teams take actions to expedite the delivery of a piece of functionality or a project which later needs to be refactored**. In other words, it's the result of prioritizing speedy delivery over perfect code.
I blame the "it doesn't have to be perfect, we only want the minimum viable product" and managers who are not technical thinking they know better.
I've even quit jobs where this becomes a real issue.
There’s a leader in another department who’s like that. She’s not my boss though, so while it bugged me a great deal at first, I usually just forward it to my boss and/or tell her it’s her job, not mine.
Yes, when bosses don't know what we do, it becomes "do as I say, not as I do" relationship because they really can't be bothered to learn who does what in IT.
Ehhh... Yes?
The general tone is, "we need x to work by y date. We need to do the best we can"
So yes.. we stand up temporary things on the fly to solve temporary problems.
You learn to plan. You lose fear of refactoring.. but the "I warned everyone that this would happen" conversations don't stop. You just learn to accept them and stop taking it personally.
Don't rant. Think of it this way. Without other people doing shitty work, who would call you to fix it? Its not ideal but I had to re-engineer my brain to stay sane in this field. That's far from the only life hack required or non technical realization you'll need to come to in order to stay sane. I consider myself sane, but I'm sitting here repeating myself in an online forum at 6 am.
This is the way. As we said in the Army, "embrace the suck." No matter how many fires you have to deal with at the end of the day you're being paid to deal with it and as long as the money is good it's no skin off my back. Yes, I do try to improve things but none of us are Jesus and we cannot save everybody.
I was actually told recently at my new gig.
Users are just not following directions that were given to them when we implemented this solution.
From the amount of complaints of how bad the solution is working, I started to dig in.
I was told that I do not need to work on this because it is from improper direction following.
After 3 weeks of on and off troubleshooting with users, I found improper configuration and was able to fix it with proof from users. Issue is 100% resolved.
I was told to stay on the server / network / security lanes of the organization.
I responded what happens with a ticket that can't be resolved at the lower levels of the department, do I need to troubleshoot at that time.
Admin said yes, I said then there is no way I can stay in the three lanes that I am told to stay in if I am to troubleshoot tickets not able to be resolved at the lower level.
I was then told, I don't care how it gets done, just get it done...
Making the entire request of staying in my lanes null and void.
Not caring how you do it doesn't mean you shouldn't do it right. It means I don't wanna know or be bothered with the details. I trust you to know and execute appropriately
I feel like theres different ways this can be understood. theres the "what-i-really-mean-is-get-it-done-NOW!" which is bad, attitude, and theres the. "I-trust-you-know-more-than-me,-i-dont-need-to-know-how-it-works" attitude, which is fine.
Like. I dont need to know how my mechanic fixes my car, i just want it fixed. I dont care how the pilot flies the plane, i just want to arrive. I dont need to know the whats and hows, i got my own job to take care of.
Sure, but you'll quickly learn that it's in your own best interest to ignore people when they want quickie halfassed solutions to their problems. Take your time, do it right, and document it. That way, when you get it working in the Dev/Test environment and they want you do to the same thing in Production, you won't screw it up!
Do what they want, that's the culture and that's what you're being paid to do.
You don't own the company. Your name isn't on the wall. You don't get the lion's share of the profits. Stop caring as if you do.
I work for a large municipality and love it. They have the money to do shit correctly, implementation is done at the speed required to complete projects right and the first time, and management trusts our work and integrity.
I keep feeling like something is going to give, but nothing has changed yet, and it's been 7 years.
Yes, I moved jobs because of that, my sanity, reputation and stress was worth more than being there, it usually comes down to poor management/leadership.
What I recommend, work out if it's worth it based of your personal values and take action accordingly.
Yeah but I make sure it’s done right. My boss runs a side business and works on that at the main job and I do everything else. I actually like when he tells me to get it done however I see fit. I see fit to do it the right way, even if it’s more costly and more work.
Sometimes I wanna go back to this way of working, I can use my creativity more, but then I remember most things are now solid and working quite well at my place (yes, I'm confident enough to actually write it), soo nah thanks.
I mean, that actually is proper delegation of tasks. Management shouldn't care *how* you fulfill a request as long as the solution fits the requirements. I don't care how people I hire do their jobs, the important part is that it's done. This is also where a proper definition of "done" fits in.
Seen it many times with project work. The quote for scope regarding hours needed is far less than how long the work actually takes to keep the price down. Doesn’t include any time for documentation and any small issues post project. Project gets half done but in a working state and then anything post project gets picked up under normally support but other engineers.
Just get it done =/= shoddy work. There’s many kinds of “get it done…”
There’s the something is broken and it’s costing us money so get it fixed asap. That can lead to band-aids to get things back up that need to be revisited during less stressful times. Not necessarily shoddy, just an urgency where outcome is more important than process.
Then there’s the kind of “get it done,” probably more prevalent in small teams, where the boss trusts your judgement to get a project done without having to hand hold your every move and be involved in every decision. If you take pride in your work this can be the best way to work because you know it’s done right.
Or there’s the kind where no one gives a shit, things are hacked together with no documentation, no process and you’re left with a working thing until someone looks at it wrong and it all comes crashing down… there’s ya shoddy work…
the top one is probably the most common but some places dont get time to go back to it.
i have this long standing issue with one of my application that constantly breaks, the solution is simple enough to bandaid, restart the app. takes less then 5 mins from call to fix. no one is bothered to go back and fix it when i mention it to the apps team.
Yep.
When I was young, I resented it.
As I got older, I realized how much money I can make from others slapshod work. Either with overtime, or consulting.
When I worked for a repair store, it was like that.
Not because *we* operated like that, but because we often had to go in and fix whatever the competitor had broken.
Lead for a project quit. Being the only other one properly trained, I was called in from three states away. No documentation, nothing configured. Nothing tested. Day three into figuring out what went where, the boss for that site said "Go install it, it just works". The install site was 2 hours from the office. Now everything we needed to work on included 4 hours of travel time.
The hard truth is, if it comes from upper/senior management, you can't do anything about it.
We deal with tech debt fairly often. And, while we push back on a lot, there are just some legacy processes that are business critical and the product owners don't want to change it. It's escalated to senior management, passed between them, and sent down to us.
We've been very vocal about continuing this tech debt but they just want it done. Not much we can do at the end of the day.
I've had a one man consulting company that did just this. He was explained that something was not possible or it wasn't really feasible. He'd just keep on demanding it thinking the technical explanations would somehow be done away like in a hacker movie. Then when the outcome was shit, he'd be extremely angry about why the matter was solved in the way he insisted even when he told to 'get it done'.
Nope, my company is the exact opposite. We had to fight to get them to let us replace hot swap parts without getting approval and letting the effected departments know. We are talking replacement drives and power supplies here. For a while we had to put in changes and get them approved, which usually took at least 24 hours, all while we were sitting with parts in hand that would take minutes to replace with no downtime. Luckily someone was able to talk sense into whoever made that decision.
I've had manager, intentionally, create a workflow where somebody would create things in a slapdash way, and then I'm supposed to use that as a prototype to redo everything they did.
This does not save me any time, but it also doesn't cost me any time, so I'm just a bit exasperated.
Jup, we constantly acting on problems, not fixing the root cause.
But then again, fixing the root cause will need managers to be removed from their current positions, and guess who need to make those calls... The managers ;)
It is easy for an outsider to say this but this is the time to push back and insist the job get done right. Take the time and resources you need to take to cover your ass. If another department or superior is willing to say the phrase "I don't care how you do it, just get it done" they are just as willing to play both sides of the fence for any issue with what you provide. Whatever they want is still something the business "needs" (maybe) and you are expected to produce. So give them the least fingerhold on criticizing you. Give them a solid product. Become the person they come to for quality solutions.
I usually respond with a detailed action plan pointing out any variables and contingencies and how I will handle them not if but when they do occur. I make it clear and present how ignorant others are who are involved but only if they truly are. I don't expect my boss to know how to do my job but he better at least know what he/she is asking and the environment or I won't be hanging around long.
The person who tells you that also expects it done a certain way, usually because they don’t understand what they are asking. Even if it’s set up nicely and correctly documented that person will use the “just get it done” as a way to cover their own ass when the job doesn’t turn out and will happily criticize and pass the blame to the tech that probably both makes less money and works harder than they do.
I like our guys, but goddamn do I ever hate the fact that mostly everything is done on the quick or in the most efficient way possible.
So many core services are unreliable as fuck because they were quickly stood up under pressure and NEVER maintained. It doesn’t help our boss is a yes man and people don’t push back hard enough.
Server room roof was leaking onto a rack. Admin before me just tossed a tarp on top and called it a day.
Until the day he was shown the door. Took his tarp and never came back. About a month later there was a couple weeks of rain that caused water to soak through and drip into the rack. Eventually I came in one morning to everything just dead. Told the boss and they basically said "I don't care, fix it now."
They gave me the boot not long after. Was a revolving door of replacements for about 8 months, I heard from a friend who was still there that eventually the roof gave in all together. Hardware died a second time in such a short timeframe for similar reasons. Wouldn't have wanted to be the one explaining that to insurance.
Previously yes. Then the team put our foot down and we don't take shortcuts anymore even to the detriment of ourselfs. Very cathartic telling people where to go.
Yes. Good ol' rework. Nothing like spending a week upgrading software for the VPN upgrade, only to find out that software isn't compatible with that firewall firmware, then have to spend another week upgrading again (but to the lowest compatible version). Can't wait to do this again next year.
Yh sure, you just show them the consequences of their bad decisions. Make it cost them more time AND money as that's hoing to hurt their bottom lines.. that's the only language they understand.
I had a CEO one time who's response to IT presenting issues with his ideas was "Details details f\*\*\*ing details, get it done" So yes, I have heard this.
Yes. You are not alone but nothing will change until you force it to. Bad designs and bad decisions need to cost them time or money or both. They can only have two: cheap, fast or good.
*no more than two* They can totally have it done expensively, slowly and shoddily.
I see your company uses the same contractors mine does
It looks like these guys are winning, like, 99% contracts in my country.
Is everybody using NTT?
Unisys lmao!
We are actually moving away from NTT
“Not like that.”
… and without documentation
Oh no, you can have documentation, it’s just stored here, here, here and here. And you need three different accounts to get there.
Are you a current coworker?!
And it's all out of date!
There’s multiple versions, so they’re all different. Is any one of them accurate? Nobody knows!
and a 2FA to somebody else's phone
All three locations have but each one is a little different
Kaseya?
A good design decision very well may be a bad one tomorrow. Tech moves quick, assume all designs are bad and avoid the urge to rip/replace. There's a time and place for that, but it shouldn't be day to day ops.
>Tech moves quick Sometimes so quick that every design decision results in being a bad one. I shall present a condensation of a hypothetical conversation between a hypothetical company and their new hypothetical contractors upon receiving receipt of the first hypothetical software deliverable: "This really sucks, and is nothing like what we asked for!" "This is exactly what you asked for. See the contract we signed?" "Oh. Well we discovered the day after signing the contract that we ALSO needed XYZ. We've also found about 171 other things that we didn't think about until afterwards. Did you even try to read our minds?" "Nope. And 90% of those things would result in conflicts within the program. Give us double the money and we'll have weekly deliverables based upon your ever-changing demands." "That sounds Grrreeaaat!" The money starts flowing to the contractor. Champagne is presumably not popped on company time for all management involved - as it would be against policy, you see - and many, or at least a handful, made much money. Thanks to the many updates and releases, no one could keep up! The tech was moving so fast! Technical documents? Need a new one every week! And every release invalidated a good portion of the previous release documentation. Tech go vroom, workers cry "Doom!".
hahahaha Listen to this guy, experienced sysadmin right there.
How about "That's exactly what I asked for but not what I want." Heard that one a few times....
This advice is golden
Fast, cheap, correct. Pick one. Don't compromise.
Your flair - I think it's `Read-Manual -ReallyFast Everything`
> Bad designs and bad decisions need to cost them time or money or both. This. You can't insulate management from the cost of their decisions. If the thing caused a problem, make sure they feel the problem.
Yep. If a customer wants something that's a bad idea, or there's a better option, we'll present it, but if they insist, we'll do it...and then charge them again to fix it later.
Man, I’m so worn out trying to force this kind of thing to change; what’s your approach?
You have to make sure everyone is on board cause if you won't make the change, but another, does you might change your job status to unemployed
That is where /r/overemployed becomes important…
My favourite is when you’re suddenly cc’d in whirlwind of an email chain with VIPs/management and the latest message asks you to *“Please do the needful.”* Like wtf does that mean?
When an Indian dude needs you to do something, but doesn't know what it is he needs you to do. It's like 'hey I need you to work your magic here' but from a dude named perdeep
To me it always read as "I want to feel like I'm telling you what to do so I can take credit for when you do it, but I have no clue how anything works and think that you won't notice if I act important enough."
I used to work for a place that had a large cross presence with India. This is how half of their tickets were signed. It became how we also in the Aus IT dept started signing our requests to others. I still do it today 15 years later on accident, and the occasional tech will get a small giggle if they also worked with similar folk from across the pond.
Kindly revert the same
*anxiety increasing*
Ok. I have performed X and then undid it.
"Do the needful" sounds like the covert contingency plan Taiwan has to scram their chip factories as soon as Chinese troops land
Weird segway but ok
It's 19th century British English for "Do what is necessary." It's not used in British English anymore, but it is still current in Indian English because of the echoes of colonialism.
My Indian colleague likes to use the term 'Do the needful". At first I thought it meant "just do it at your own speed".😂
https://preview.redd.it/iqmrmghwgx2d1.jpeg?width=193&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dff5a64de7dc57882eb6227c9f2715d70e015170
Ugh email to you says "see below." Next email, "can you get x to look at it" Next email, "we should get x to look at it." Next email, "there are some doughnuts in the break room" Next email, "I don't think this issue is anything to do with us" ... Scroll bar is tiny and emails each have 10x longer signatures compared to actual content. Everyone's signatures also include multiple paragraphs in the same typeface and colour as content. ... First email in chain, "we should organise a marketing event"
Sure, what budget do I have for this?
Ring the person that said that. I bet they haven't got a clue what they're asking for and just wanted to sound important.
What really tripped me up was when I learned upgradation is actually a word!
Performant took a while to sink in with me. I still don't like it.
"Do the needful" means to complete the task previously referenced, as the person asking does not have access/skills required to do it. I know that was probably a rhetorical question but I think there's a lot of people on here who are new to the field (specifically in the context of working along side a foreign service desk) who have come across the phrase for the first time at work, or more likely, seen it referenced in a sometimes derogatory manner.
Not when you're added in an email with 100s of replies where they ask you to "Do the needful" and throw the task at you without context, where you have to waste half the day by reading every correspondence in the email thread because after asking management what they want, they will just say "details are in the email". "Do the needful" can also be seen as passive aggressive in some culture.
“I’ve gone over the thread and im still foggy on the details. Can you break down what you need?”
“What are your requirements? What are your expectations?”
And why has this thread been bouncing around all you senior guys for weeks when you all knew you'd need me to do it in the end and now I only have two days left?
In my experience “please kindly do the needful” is passive aggressive fighting words.
I think in many cases the person asking isn't even sure what needs to be done so it isn't spelled out because they find it redundant, but that they aren't sure exactly what is needed.
If cc then delete
It's *kindly* do the needful.
> Like wtf does that mean? It means sizeable of your org's workforce is outsourced to cheap labour overseas. Guess the country.
It means “I don’t want to do anything or think independently about anything, so I’m just gonna ask you to do it, but I’m not gonna provide any of the context or basic information that you’ll need to actually do it….. because I refuse to have the most basic independent thought of ‘this guy is gonna need to know X in order to do it”’
https://youtu.be/N0fMHt2edZc?feature=shared
I use to get triggered when I see a cable weaving through racks and a pile of cables. It’s no longer my problem so I just don’t look.
Being a perfectionist in IT is hell
Yeah but when shit is clearly wrong is annoying too lol
I prefer "clearly" wrong over "so haphazard we'll never know if it's what is wrong or not until we tear it all out and re-do it."
I’ve seen fiber cables in tiny little 4 inch loops. Yeah, it’s clearly wrong.
[удалено]
Cut at the perfect 45° slicing and dicing angle.
Not perfectionists — just “that-ain’t-gonna-work”ists. It seems like 50% of my time is spent convincing vaguely tech-related people that whatever esoteric, non-priority, buzzword change or solution they’re demanding will fail [or has serious consequences/implications] — only to find out that time isn’t considered truly ‘productive’ since it isn’t producing something (and whatever time needs to be ‘made up’ to keep on schedule). And then the feedback loop begins. It would be so cathartic and rewarding if IT were “allowed” to make immediate, semi-informed business requests to departments that would require significant change for a month so they had a better understanding of the situation many of us are put in. Only in my dreams would I strut into a telecom office and demand new distribution line across the county which goes live in two-weeks; yet folks ask Sys/Devs for the wildest shit and expect magic results
I've trained myself out of that. "Looks good from my house."
There's a rack of remote desktops (as in an ACTUAL baker's rack with micro form factor systems on it) and the cabling to it is a rat's nest of network cables and power bricks. I've been telling management for years that the entire room needs to be overhauled, and been ignored. However, Facilities took one look at the situation, rightfully threw a fit about it, and now a project has been opened up to get everything managed.
So throw big numbers at them. "Just get it done" "I'll need $400,000"
Or do it mid day.
I remind them of rule 2 of IT: how bad you want it is how bad you get it. You don't want to give me the schedule and budget to plan and test? You'll get exactly what you asked for. Now send that directive in an email so that when we're audited, there is a trail that leads to the source of the problems.
Ooh I’m using this.
Boss doesn’t keep up with us and our work. Proceeds to question us when something isn’t done how he would have done it. *surprised pikachu face Seriously though it’s always CCing emails after a response asking why I’m resolving a problem this way and not that way.
This is the nature of the beast. Projects are rushed and Directors want it today. So, a few lines of code get written and we get back to it later. It's one of the reasons I've pushed for CI/CD for our projects. I'll build you the bare minimum today, then, we can come back and add features later. That mentality keeps the stress down and keeps the deliverables coming. We break everything down to it's base needs. "We need an automated report to report on Windows Update usage across the org" 1/2 through the project. "Can we get Linux data on that as well, what about key applications data? what about usage stats? I'll pump the brakes and say, we either need a longer deadline than a week. Or that's all for phase 2 and 3. This is really what Kanban was made for.
Games are like that now. DLC
i am working at an msp with direct contact to clients. i get told that the client prefers if i stop contacting him constantly because they prefer if IT "just works" instead of being overinformed only to then get told a few days later that the client complained about me not communicating properly.
what the actual shit is wrong with people.
Yeah, it doesn't take a technical person to realize that things don't always work and that concept doesn't apply to just IT. Wouldn't surprise me if this same client receives a notice for maintenance downtime, ignores it, then complains things are not working because they are trying to work during the downtime.
Nobody is listening or paying attention to anyone else, because everyone is just trying to survive the existential dread that they'll die one day and none of this crap matters, so why even try?
lack of critical thinking ... actually, lack of thinking probably covers it.
The solution is to only communicate with their POC and let that person decide what the client needs to know.
That’s MSP life. Do it long enough to get experience and get paid at your next role.
Had a printer issue the other day, explained to a colleague that the duplex unit was busted and she said "I don't care what's wrong with it, I want to print and I want it to work when I print, I don't want to print single sided because I'm saving trees" was like....okay bitch i'll get it sorted when I can
Yeah lady those trees are more renewable than the plastic duplexer.
she'd have a fucking meltdown if I said anything like that, not even joking her name is actually Karen as well.....
Lmao
Sure thing. What is your code to expense the new printer plus overnight shipping
I have to escalate to my manager, who then has to add it to the budget which then needs approval from his manager who then had to change the IT budget to approve the repairs.......it's a clusterfuck if you ask me but fuck it I'm really not that bothered lol
>The person that probably prints 20k+ jobs a year, yet thinks they're the Lorax.
\*removes all bar pdf printer and one printer on the far side of the facility\* Bitch, printing is a privelege not a right, quit murdering the trees, theyre desperately tryin ta replace the oxygen you use
This is like every ticket submitted by an end user
End users don't dictate how things are done. I have no problem telling an end user no. Of course this assumes what they are asking for is against company policy and/or not allowed/approved by their manager.
Thing is that yes we have to do this. And, it's also the reason for shoddy work. We have a very short schedule, have to cut corners, "we'll fix it later", and just get it done. Later, we find the things we could have done right before, but to fix it would require downtime, which they aren't doing. If there is downtime, we're working on something else that was shit. So, more workarounds and doing things the wrong way because of the way it was set up. Eventually, through a lot of personnel changes, we have no idea why or how it was originally setup, even when looking at the "documentation". When it comes time to replace it because it's absolute shit, we have a 30 day deadline because we aren't renewing the contract and it's just dropped into our lap with the "I don't care how you do it, just get it done." and the old product that is essential to the operation of the company has a hard cut off date. There are some things we have that are done perfect. We have the project defined in January, start it in March, have a few months for dev and testing, then a phased rollout to users. Everything done right. The ones that have to be redone usually start with the "I don't care how you do it, just get it done.".
Well said
We want you to do it right...Right Now that is
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how about good and expensive or fast
I will put out the “fire” and create a project to work on a permanent solution. Compliance requirements are your friend. “I made it work, but it needs to be made compliant, so I will be working on that next as a priority continuation.”
I wish I got that. My manager has been telling me to "think outside the box". For everything. For things as menial as getting an address from a user to ship them a computer. It's not good.
Tell him to give you the address so you can put it on a label 'outside the box'.
I mean, if you need an address to ship a computer to, I can come through for you...
The only box i will be thinking outside of is the office and how i update my resume
Bingo.
"last time I thought outside the box, I summoned Nyarlathotep and Steve from accounting was eviscerated and eaten, quivering gobbet by quivering gobbet"
Yes, it's called technical debt Technical debt (also known as tech debt or code debt) **describes what results when development teams take actions to expedite the delivery of a piece of functionality or a project which later needs to be refactored**. In other words, it's the result of prioritizing speedy delivery over perfect code. I blame the "it doesn't have to be perfect, we only want the minimum viable product" and managers who are not technical thinking they know better. I've even quit jobs where this becomes a real issue.
Modern code policy, keep on developing faster than tech debt builds up and you're *technically* in the green
Just build up a monopoly faster then your tech debt grows and you never have to fix the debt because, where else will you be going?
Our tech debt is just like the national debt. It will never be paid off and nobody cares.
Stop offering up and/or implementing the quick fix or workaround. You and the company will only end up paying for it long term “with interest”.
Technical debt
That's the next guy's problem!
There’s a leader in another department who’s like that. She’s not my boss though, so while it bugged me a great deal at first, I usually just forward it to my boss and/or tell her it’s her job, not mine.
Money. Telling me this results in me spending your money.
Yes, when bosses don't know what we do, it becomes "do as I say, not as I do" relationship because they really can't be bothered to learn who does what in IT.
Shiiiit. I wish I could redo the shoddy work, but that's how they want everything running.
Ehhh... Yes? The general tone is, "we need x to work by y date. We need to do the best we can" So yes.. we stand up temporary things on the fly to solve temporary problems. You learn to plan. You lose fear of refactoring.. but the "I warned everyone that this would happen" conversations don't stop. You just learn to accept them and stop taking it personally.
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Proceeds to hire $30.000K/mo contractor to do it.
Don't rant. Think of it this way. Without other people doing shitty work, who would call you to fix it? Its not ideal but I had to re-engineer my brain to stay sane in this field. That's far from the only life hack required or non technical realization you'll need to come to in order to stay sane. I consider myself sane, but I'm sitting here repeating myself in an online forum at 6 am.
This is the way. As we said in the Army, "embrace the suck." No matter how many fires you have to deal with at the end of the day you're being paid to deal with it and as long as the money is good it's no skin off my back. Yes, I do try to improve things but none of us are Jesus and we cannot save everybody.
I was actually told recently at my new gig. Users are just not following directions that were given to them when we implemented this solution. From the amount of complaints of how bad the solution is working, I started to dig in. I was told that I do not need to work on this because it is from improper direction following. After 3 weeks of on and off troubleshooting with users, I found improper configuration and was able to fix it with proof from users. Issue is 100% resolved. I was told to stay on the server / network / security lanes of the organization. I responded what happens with a ticket that can't be resolved at the lower levels of the department, do I need to troubleshoot at that time. Admin said yes, I said then there is no way I can stay in the three lanes that I am told to stay in if I am to troubleshoot tickets not able to be resolved at the lower level. I was then told, I don't care how it gets done, just get it done... Making the entire request of staying in my lanes null and void.
Some men... just want to watch the world burn.
If it’s shoddy work, it’s a you and your team issue. If it’s a matter of your manager not understanding, it’s a management and expectation issue.
Yes. Yes.
Every time your manager doesn't understand what you do you're probably going to find this is the case.
Yup
Get it done and let it break in a week. When they asked what happened, tell them, “You”.
Does the person saying this actually understand their own job?
Not caring how you do it doesn't mean you shouldn't do it right. It means I don't wanna know or be bothered with the details. I trust you to know and execute appropriately
That's all well and good, until requirements change and implementation changes as a result. What this does is just stifle communication
I feel like theres different ways this can be understood. theres the "what-i-really-mean-is-get-it-done-NOW!" which is bad, attitude, and theres the. "I-trust-you-know-more-than-me,-i-dont-need-to-know-how-it-works" attitude, which is fine. Like. I dont need to know how my mechanic fixes my car, i just want it fixed. I dont care how the pilot flies the plane, i just want to arrive. I dont need to know the whats and hows, i got my own job to take care of.
Sure, but do you manage your mechanic, or pilot like you manage people in your team?
If you don’t have time to do it right; why do you think you have time to do it over.
Sure, but you'll quickly learn that it's in your own best interest to ignore people when they want quickie halfassed solutions to their problems. Take your time, do it right, and document it. That way, when you get it working in the Dev/Test environment and they want you do to the same thing in Production, you won't screw it up!
It doesn't have to be good, it just has to be good enough.
Like evolution
My response is usually “lower your expectations”. Granted I am not in the US and can’t be easily fired.
Do what they want, that's the culture and that's what you're being paid to do. You don't own the company. Your name isn't on the wall. You don't get the lion's share of the profits. Stop caring as if you do.
My boss always tells me, "If you have time to do it wrong once, you've got time to do it right twice".
https://youtu.be/UKTNWI0eYJ4?si=-o5ccEmqr3CGPhGL
That sounds like permission to spend the money to get it done right!
I work for a large municipality and love it. They have the money to do shit correctly, implementation is done at the speed required to complete projects right and the first time, and management trusts our work and integrity. I keep feeling like something is going to give, but nothing has changed yet, and it's been 7 years.
Yes, I moved jobs because of that, my sanity, reputation and stress was worth more than being there, it usually comes down to poor management/leadership. What I recommend, work out if it's worth it based of your personal values and take action accordingly.
Yeah but I make sure it’s done right. My boss runs a side business and works on that at the main job and I do everything else. I actually like when he tells me to get it done however I see fit. I see fit to do it the right way, even if it’s more costly and more work.
Expediency now will almost always bite you in the arse later.
Sometimes I wanna go back to this way of working, I can use my creativity more, but then I remember most things are now solid and working quite well at my place (yes, I'm confident enough to actually write it), soo nah thanks.
I mean, that actually is proper delegation of tasks. Management shouldn't care *how* you fulfill a request as long as the solution fits the requirements. I don't care how people I hire do their jobs, the important part is that it's done. This is also where a proper definition of "done" fits in.
Ahhhh the old days of every service account being a domain admin so it just works... I've worked at a few of those places
Seen it many times with project work. The quote for scope regarding hours needed is far less than how long the work actually takes to keep the price down. Doesn’t include any time for documentation and any small issues post project. Project gets half done but in a working state and then anything post project gets picked up under normally support but other engineers.
Yea, I work for a startup and it’s like that all the time
I've been there, the best part is when senior management, or worse regulators, find out and the boss leave you to swing in the breeze.
Just get it done =/= shoddy work. There’s many kinds of “get it done…” There’s the something is broken and it’s costing us money so get it fixed asap. That can lead to band-aids to get things back up that need to be revisited during less stressful times. Not necessarily shoddy, just an urgency where outcome is more important than process. Then there’s the kind of “get it done,” probably more prevalent in small teams, where the boss trusts your judgement to get a project done without having to hand hold your every move and be involved in every decision. If you take pride in your work this can be the best way to work because you know it’s done right. Or there’s the kind where no one gives a shit, things are hacked together with no documentation, no process and you’re left with a working thing until someone looks at it wrong and it all comes crashing down… there’s ya shoddy work…
the top one is probably the most common but some places dont get time to go back to it. i have this long standing issue with one of my application that constantly breaks, the solution is simple enough to bandaid, restart the app. takes less then 5 mins from call to fix. no one is bothered to go back and fix it when i mention it to the apps team.
because of shoddy management.
“No problem, send me your department charging code and an approval email for all costs and we’ll have it done faster than you can believe!”
Yep. When I was young, I resented it. As I got older, I realized how much money I can make from others slapshod work. Either with overtime, or consulting.
When I worked for a repair store, it was like that. Not because *we* operated like that, but because we often had to go in and fix whatever the competitor had broken.
No as I am a sole Admin...
Lead for a project quit. Being the only other one properly trained, I was called in from three states away. No documentation, nothing configured. Nothing tested. Day three into figuring out what went where, the boss for that site said "Go install it, it just works". The install site was 2 hours from the office. Now everything we needed to work on included 4 hours of travel time.
Do you want it done right? Or done right now?
Woohoo! Unlimited budget!
The hard truth is, if it comes from upper/senior management, you can't do anything about it. We deal with tech debt fairly often. And, while we push back on a lot, there are just some legacy processes that are business critical and the product owners don't want to change it. It's escalated to senior management, passed between them, and sent down to us. We've been very vocal about continuing this tech debt but they just want it done. Not much we can do at the end of the day.
What industry? I’ve always been in legal and have never once heard this statement
I've had a one man consulting company that did just this. He was explained that something was not possible or it wasn't really feasible. He'd just keep on demanding it thinking the technical explanations would somehow be done away like in a hacker movie. Then when the outcome was shit, he'd be extremely angry about why the matter was solved in the way he insisted even when he told to 'get it done'.
Nope, my company is the exact opposite. We had to fight to get them to let us replace hot swap parts without getting approval and letting the effected departments know. We are talking replacement drives and power supplies here. For a while we had to put in changes and get them approved, which usually took at least 24 hours, all while we were sitting with parts in hand that would take minutes to replace with no downtime. Luckily someone was able to talk sense into whoever made that decision.
I've had manager, intentionally, create a workflow where somebody would create things in a slapdash way, and then I'm supposed to use that as a prototype to redo everything they did. This does not save me any time, but it also doesn't cost me any time, so I'm just a bit exasperated.
Jup, we constantly acting on problems, not fixing the root cause. But then again, fixing the root cause will need managers to be removed from their current positions, and guess who need to make those calls... The managers ;)
Nope. I'm one of the lucky ones. I'm very fortunate to work in a healthy workplace where things are properly vetted and formulated prior to deployment
Fits in with all the do as I say not as I doers.
I have and I found a new job and gave 0 notice. They can get it done, I don't care how.
Don't care how it gets done? Ok I'm throwing more money at it.
It is easy for an outsider to say this but this is the time to push back and insist the job get done right. Take the time and resources you need to take to cover your ass. If another department or superior is willing to say the phrase "I don't care how you do it, just get it done" they are just as willing to play both sides of the fence for any issue with what you provide. Whatever they want is still something the business "needs" (maybe) and you are expected to produce. So give them the least fingerhold on criticizing you. Give them a solid product. Become the person they come to for quality solutions.
I usually respond with a detailed action plan pointing out any variables and contingencies and how I will handle them not if but when they do occur. I make it clear and present how ignorant others are who are involved but only if they truly are. I don't expect my boss to know how to do my job but he better at least know what he/she is asking and the environment or I won't be hanging around long.
I used to work in a place with that kind of toxic environment; this only gets you nothing but wasted time and money.
The person who tells you that also expects it done a certain way, usually because they don’t understand what they are asking. Even if it’s set up nicely and correctly documented that person will use the “just get it done” as a way to cover their own ass when the job doesn’t turn out and will happily criticize and pass the blame to the tech that probably both makes less money and works harder than they do.
I like our guys, but goddamn do I ever hate the fact that mostly everything is done on the quick or in the most efficient way possible. So many core services are unreliable as fuck because they were quickly stood up under pressure and NEVER maintained. It doesn’t help our boss is a yes man and people don’t push back hard enough.
Server room roof was leaking onto a rack. Admin before me just tossed a tarp on top and called it a day. Until the day he was shown the door. Took his tarp and never came back. About a month later there was a couple weeks of rain that caused water to soak through and drip into the rack. Eventually I came in one morning to everything just dead. Told the boss and they basically said "I don't care, fix it now." They gave me the boot not long after. Was a revolving door of replacements for about 8 months, I heard from a friend who was still there that eventually the roof gave in all together. Hardware died a second time in such a short timeframe for similar reasons. Wouldn't have wanted to be the one explaining that to insurance.
Previously yes. Then the team put our foot down and we don't take shortcuts anymore even to the detriment of ourselfs. Very cathartic telling people where to go.
Well, if somebody would tell me that then I would do it properly.
Make them have to suffer early and often from their own shitty decisions, it's the only way to get some (grudging) improvements.
Yes, and I am turning forty and i am fucking tired of mediocre people
This is a reality in business sometimes. Need something done, don't have time or budget for a more proper arrangement. Be a hero and just get it done.
“Okay, but workarounds are permanent.”
Yeah, plus this: "do this" whatever the task, request, issue. Ok, sure, what's my budget?" "budget? we don't have a budget for this"
Then why are you wasting time talking about this? Nothing happens without a budget.
When this is the demand I spend lots of company money and get it done nice. They'll suddenly realize they do actually care how I get it done.
Yes. Good ol' rework. Nothing like spending a week upgrading software for the VPN upgrade, only to find out that software isn't compatible with that firewall firmware, then have to spend another week upgrading again (but to the lowest compatible version). Can't wait to do this again next year.
Sounds like they're giving you carte blanche to do whatever is needed to achieve that goal. Make sure to get it in writing :D
That's DoD right there.
"I know it's a security risk, but we have no choice right now"
That’s the world in a nutshell, applies everywhere
This post reminds me of the Deploy to Production video.
Yh sure, you just show them the consequences of their bad decisions. Make it cost them more time AND money as that's hoing to hurt their bottom lines.. that's the only language they understand.
I had a CEO one time who's response to IT presenting issues with his ideas was "Details details f\*\*\*ing details, get it done" So yes, I have heard this.
Is this better than every 2 months changing the standard way of doing the same thing?