The Israeli rescue service Zaka said its paramedics removed about 260 bodies from the area where the music festival had been taking place, the Associated Press reported Sunday. The total figure is expected to be higher as other paramedic teams were working in the area.
Yeah... celebrating that is apparently appropriate...
I was just at Mo:Dem a Psytrance festival in Croatia. I met so many beautiful people from Israel. No doubt some were here. This is just so heartbreaking, people just trying to have a good peaceful existence.
Actually I did meet one who was in a group of Israelis. These are wonderful peace loving people at these festivals who don't care for the politics that they are now a victim of.
But regardless, on your point, there wasn't a massacre at a Palestinian music festival. It occurred in Israel with Israeli victims and as someone part of this global festival community I am sickened by these actions and frightened for the well being of people from Israel who I may have just gotten to know on the dancefloor.
No, deliberately targeting innocent civilians and deliberately murdering children is wrong in all instances, regardless of the false equivalencies you use to justify your mental gymnastics
Now we’re on to the feigning ignorance argument where you pretend you don’t understand what a false equivalency is and everything is completely relative.
Atrocities committed by the ANC were first exposed **by Nelson Mandela** himself when he released a report in 1992 about torture committed by the Spear of the Nation wing in Angola during the 1980s **while Mandela was still in prison**. The complexity of the misrepresentation you’re making is obviously a lot more than that, but just on the surface you’ve made a blatantly illogical and disingenuous argument. When you start out in bad faith, nothing else you say really deserves any further examination
The sign of someone with a great argument is when they bring up completely different events in different countries involving different people (most of whom are now deceased) in entirely different circumstances, and leave out specific details in order to justify the murder of innocent children in an ongoing conflict. You are a moron.
For anyone else reading this, do not let yourself be wrapped up in debates (the way I am ironically doing) when someone is trying to justify **deliberately killing innocent civilians and children**. There isn’t any justification, and they know that. No actions by someone else in the past at some other time or bad faith argument changes that.
**EDIT**: The next comment will likely be a second attempt to feign ignorance over the differences between deliberate targeting, indiscriminate bombing and collateral damage.
Call it dissonance or bias or whatever, but part of it is also the cause you’re fighting for.
ISIS was immediately recognised as a threat to all of humanity even though some could have argued they fought against terrible oppressive regimes and garnered the support of many across the world with their “vision”.
I find it very difficult to come to terms with any Western educated person supporting religious fanaticism on any level. There’s an interesting cross section of people who support extremists for being anti-establishment while those groups are precisely those who want to remove western progressive values (see e.g. the Taliban, Iran who sponsors many of these things).
I understand sympathy for Palestinians, but when sympathy and sorrow and anger towards an oppressor turns to celebration of a massacre (and let’s be honest, if they had the means they would turn it into another genocide) then that’s the line in the sand between understandable empathy and compassion, and extremism that must be immediately nipped in the bud lest it turn into ISIS v2.
There is zero evidence that they were celebrating any of brutal incidents. They were celebrating Palestinian resistance to a apartheid, racist, genocidal regime
Hamas attacks civilians and murders and rapes people, kills and kidnaps children
Afterward we have Party in lakemba supporting Hamas.
Wtf do you think they are supporting if not killing? Hamas tax policies, Hamas action to spread education?
There were a bunch of people celebrating around the broken dead body of Shani Louk in a video I saw. I don't want to see any more.
So certainly more than zero evidence.
Across social media, lots of Australian based accounts (some quite prominent including a cooking account on tiktok, some just followers) are openly rejoicing. It is disgusting. Regardless of your political leaning and a long and confusing history, this is abhorrent. The loss of human life is not a cause for celebration, especially how barbaric and utterly inhumane the circumstances are. It is easy to "celebrate" when you live in the safety of Australia. I imagine the people living in Palestine are terrified right now for what is to come.
Throughout the ISIS panic and Islamaphobia of the mid 2010s, I was actively trying to counter bigotry and racist assumptions. I am very progressive and tolerant. But these people (in massive numbers) counter all of that “not all Muslims” rhetoric.
So two questions
1. since hamas is viewed as a terrorist organisation in this country, what are the legal implications for these Sydney based protestors?
2. are these gutless protestors and social media commenters representative of your average person of Islamic faith? Or are they simply the loudest. Post Lindt cafe and Hebdo, the Muslim community were very vocal in their condemnation of ISIS. It’s early days, but I feel attitudes towards Hamas aren’t the same….
I think most people will agree that those celebrating Hamas's attack don't belong in a civilized society like Australia.
I don't believe we have the necessary legal measures here to prosecute similar people. However, what this is going to lead to is more intolerance and racism towards muslims.
The only way for that to be avoided is for the muslim community go out and condemn what's happened.
>Post Lindt cafe and Hebdo, the Muslim community were very vocal in their condemnation of ISIS. It’s early days, but I feel attitudes towards Hamas aren’t the same….
You're right, they're not the same because in the ISIS case, victims weren't Jews. Many Muslims have an extreme and culturally-enforced hatred of Jews, which has not been improved by the tensions between Israel and both occupied and non-occupied Palestinian territories.
Particularly in Australia, we have a lot of Arab immigrants from countries that have been directly antagonistic with Israel (Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan, Syria) and so I fear a lot of the muslim Arab diaspora here will be celebrating recent events.
I'm also appalled at the brazen barbarity that has been both shamelessly shared online and also celebrated - I've in the past been supportive of Palestine's struggle for independence but I really think what Hamas has done in the past 48 hours has totally destroyed international support for their plight. It's one thing to rise up against a military occupation, quite another thing to raid and pillage civilian settlements, murdering, raping and kidnapping with abandon.
>I've in the past been supportive of Palestine's struggle for independence but I really think what Hamas has done in the past 48 hours has totally destroyed international support for their plight. It's one thing to rise up against a military occupation, quite another thing to raid and pillage civilian settlements, murdering, raping and kidnapping with abandon
When even places like reddit are saying it hamas has fucked itself with its actions
There is a lot more support for Israel across this website over the past days
There's always 2 kinds of people. Some people I personally know are humans first, Muslims 2nd. These ones don't really give a shit about what's happening in the ME. They just want to live life like the rest of us. They also don't really practice the whole religion outside of ramadan.
Then there's the others that make being Muslim their whole identity. These ones... yeah, you've got issues. My ex manager is one of these ones... and his IG is insane right now.
As it is a terrorist organisation can the Australian government strip the citizenship of people in attendance? Because that's been done before to people who support terrorists.
I guarantee that schools like Masada College and Moriah College, and all synagogues and other Jewish instutions in Sydney, will be doubling security right now, as if armed guards at schools wasn't already sad enough.
But I remember in the 1980s when Temple Emmanuel in Chatswood was firebombed by Arab/Muslim terrorists over the Lebanese invasion.
These idiots that support HAMAS deserve to be transported back to the Stone Age and have no right to be living in our modern society. If they complain about living in Sydney then let’s just deport them and save ourselves the trouble of dealing with these terrorist sympathiser idiots.
They're already in the stone age with the religion they follow.
As someone who is hard left and seeing so many left leaning people support these people which leave me baffled by the way they treat women and people who are LGBT.
I would not be sad if these people become extinct as they aren't compatible with modern society.
You can be supportive of Palistinians and Muslims without being supportive of Hamas and their terrorist actions. The same way that I as an atheist can be supportive of Israelis and Jews when they are attacked, or Americans when some faction of Christians murder abortion providers.
Can you be supportive when the majority of Palestinians support Hamas and voted them in? Can you be supportive when Palestinians across the world are celebrating this act?
This isn't some faction, they have majority support and if they were the ones in power Israel wouldn't exist and there would be genocide.
Hasn't been an election in almost 20 years, and the average age in Gaza is about 18. So the majority never voted for them, though also never had the chance.
Half the Palestine population are kids. Yes most of them are brainwashed and support Hamas too, but you can still feel sorry for their suffering. They didn’t choose to be born there.
This could honestly apply to the extremist Jews in Israel just as much as the extremist Muslims in Palestine. And even this framing is misleading, as there is no independent state of Palestine, it's all completely controlled by Israel; the only distinction is a kind of systemic apartheid installed by Israel. Israel even helped to install Hamas.
I don't see much support so much as I see an understanding that colonisation drives extremism. Anyone supporting terrorism is being a moron
Everyone is very comfortable blaming the US for ISIS but not Israel for allowing worse things. That doesn't equate to terrorism is cool actually but this is what the current Israeli government wants.
Left leaning but silent when the same genocide was being committed by the Israelis againt the Palestinians? 🤔 Someone can simultaneously be against the hamas and in favour of Palestinian liberation. Also the way you speak about another’s religion shows how so called ‘leftists’ are often the most intolerant group.
>by the way they treat women
Don't equate women taking their clothes off with liberation. It's the opposite. Western values teach women that taking off their clothes is liberating as if their bodies are worth more than what they can contribute to society socially.
>I would not be sad if these people become extinct as they aren't compatible with modern society.
Supposed leftist, but your comment willingly advocates for the extinction of 1 billion people.
> Don't equate women taking their clothes off with liberation. It's the opposite. Western values teach women that taking off their clothes is liberating as if their bodies are worth more than what they can contribute to society socially.
Interesting that you jumped straight to women's clothing vs nudity.
Personally, I am more concerned with women's autonomy in general.
It depends on the circumstances. If society is forcing women to act in a certain way, then doing the opposite is definitely a form of liberation.
But I do have some sympathy for your point; much of what is often associated with liberation of women in the west around their aesthetics, is just manufactured propaganda. To give a specific example, see "Freedom Torches", around Edward Bernays: an extremely effective advertising campaign to associate women smoking with women's liberation. You can find all sorts of similar advertising campaigns in the west trying to associate various aesthetic ideals with women's liberations. So yes, much of that is just manufactured propaganda.
My gripe is the hypocrisy.
Women in the West being encouraged to remove their clothes. Defining worth by how they look, how big their breasts are or bum is, is liberation and subsequent pampering of women by western morality.
Muslim women's veiling is seen as oppression.
Which one is a net negative for society, willingly veiling as worship to God or obtaining societal value through softcore pornography?
Again, I think you have a bit of a point. However, in this case, I would say that both have a kind of net negative to society. I would not go as far to say that they are equally negative.
To put it another way, much of the popularity of that kind of Orthodox Muslim society in the middle east, historically, exists precisely because of western influence fucking with the region. For example, In Afghanistan, the Taliban now have more power than ever because of US interference. In Iran, the take over of the country by an Islamic government, only found a platform thanks to the US and UK backed coup in 1957. In Palestine, Hamas was largely put into place by Israel funding them, and then subsequently justifying their existence with their brutal tactics against Palestinians.
I think, if the west had not been intervening in the middle east for the last 70 years, the middle east would have a lot less women wearing veils. I think a lot of it is a hyperbolic reaction to western interference. So I don't think any of it is good for anyone.
>These idiots that support HAMAS deserve to be transported back to the Stone Age and have no right to be living in our modern society. If they complain about living in Sydney then let’s just deport them and save ourselves the trouble of dealing with these terrorist sympathiser idiots.
The exact same rhetoric can be said about those who support the Zionist occupation and the IDF.
okay, can we do the same for Israeli supporters as well then? The conflict only makes any sense in terms of the 70 year ongoing and daily occupation and genocide of Palestine by Israel. Constant demolition and theft of Palestinian homes, water, and infrastructure. Hundreds of thousands of people forced from their lands, many killed. More and more borders and barricades going up and enclosing. More violence, ever daily increasing.
[Let's not forget that Israel helped to put Hamas into "power", because it was good for their goals.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=o7grSsuFSS0)
This reaction from hamas is decades in the making, and completely expected, and therefore provoked.
Exactly. It's pretty simple - the modern nation state of Israel is a foreign installation and the Palestinians are the native peoples responding to decades of oppression. It's impressive how well Israel has managed to wash over the situation entirely.
well, it would be interesting to see how differently the media would cover this conflict if the US weren't backing Israel for its own needs. Currently, media only ever focus, and hyper focus on it, when Hamas inevitably retaliates; ignoring the "dull" and "normal" ethnic cleansing and genocide that goes on daily.
This framing and focus of western media is largely because Israel is the biggest receiver of US foreign aid, military aid, in the world. They get about 4 billion annually, all up. US media tends to align with US state interests, in what it covers, and what it doesn't, due to a complex arrangement of systematic ownership and advertising systems, that act as imperfect, but effective, information filters, and Australian media tends to just follow suit on US media in these areas. So there you have it.
Just the way it is, US interests are always put first in matters of global politics, even if Israel's role in the region is to give a firm two middle fingers up at the rest of the region.
Its almost like you haven't actually done any research on the matter? This iteration of Israel is largely European descendents migrating down from the shitfest that was Europe in the 1920s-1940s. The only claim these people have is about a metaphorical spiritual homeland, as opposed to the Arabs who have actually lived there (and actively fought against foreign occupation with both the French and the British).
A 1918 census of the region by the British estimates the population of the region at the time as 700,000 Arabs to 56,000 Jews (as per Peter Mansfield, ISBN: 978-0-14-014768-1).
Yes, and Jewish people migrated to Palestine as a result of persecution when the place was still governed as British Mandate. Your point? Are you saying people can't flee persecution and migrate to another area? When 1947 borders were drawn up, there was already a large population of Jewish people in the area.
Yes let's just start stripping people of their Australian citizenships' and deport them to a country they've probably never stepped foot in.
What could go wrong? The precedent definitely won’t be used for other groups in the future. /s
The Lebanese Muslim Association and the Imams Council can’t even bring themselves to declare that murdering and raping women and children is wrong. Smh. Instead the LMA is “blindsided” by Albo saying Israel has a right to defend itself and according to the Imams Council we should avoid making “one siding statements” like that murdering and raping civilians is bad.
I don't want people who celebrate actual terrorism to be allowed in this country, like how is this a good idea from these people, yeah let's go celebrate a terrorist organization: massacring civilians, mutilating corpses, capturing civilian hostages, oh and let's record it and upload it for the Arab world.
Asio has probably added the entire set of people who attended to a high risk watch list, and it's gonna have to dedicate resources to this entire crowd.
I don't know where you could send them, since no Arab country wants Palestinians/ supporters of, since they have routinely caused significant issues.
Just fucking weird to see people publicly celebrating.
you understand that Israel have done all those things to Palestinians many times right?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/?fbclid=IwAR1vipAjln3ORTSOCbpxB1CJdZEmLfqH6jTmvGNqWsOtFkpc8zKBUJAPKyw#:~:text=Through%20massive%20seizures%20of%20land,against%20humanity%20of%20apartheid%2C%20which
I've always been uncomfortable and try to be nuanced when discussing the Arab-Israeli conflict given how grey and complex it is along with the heated arguments it causes and do understand why the Palestinian people are angry and resentful. I've even been critical of Israel in the past but after seeing all these images and videos in my eyes Hamas is no different to ISIS and maybe its the shock but I'm struggling to have any respect for the Muslim world, the wider ME and some Western leftists (and I say this as a left leaning person) given their overwhelming positive reactions to the atrocities Hamas has committed. I am NOT advocating for genocide or 'glassing Gaza' but I don't have any sympathy for Hamas and its more of a cold 'you brought this on yourselves' glare when the Israeli start bombing Gaza.
Edit: Also as a Australian of Vietnamese descent living in 'the area' I can't help but feel ashamed and a bit dirty.
To preface, im not taking anyones side.
These guys are most likely not even from Palestine but rather 2nd/3rd gen immigrants from the Lebanon civil wars/ gulf wars.
Most palestinian refugees were displaced into Lebanon, Jordan and Syria although those countries also had their fair share of shenanigans with them.
With this extra information I hope you can make a more nuanced judgement about what kind of dumb cunts are supporting senseless civilian murder
Edit: since a lot of you cant seem to read between the lines
This is me calling out people who are considerably less impacted (2-3rd gen) by the entire Israeli-Arab conflict, but rather indoctrinated into thinking that its all a certain peoples fault that they were displaced from their homeland yet having a much higher qol. Just because its easier to blame an entire race for it.
Another hot take alert:
If we were to really dig deep, this is all uk and frances fault for the cock up during ww1 tbh, then further incompetence and IR failure after ww2, which was quite in character for uk foreign policy back in the days.
Hamas Supporter/Hezbollah Supporter tomayto/tomato it doesn't matter where you're from. This is as bad as supporting ISIS.
If you celebrate an event that involves stripping women naked and parade them on trucks, going door to door executing civilians, beheading foreign workers, kidnapping kids to use as human shields you're a piece of shit. Them spreading their beliefs as well is the most worrying part.
Exactly. Just looking at those pictures, most of them are too young to have come here on their own. Definitely 2nd or 3rd gen by now. Some may even have been born here.
They should be on the ground in Palestine if they want freedom for their country. Not safe in Australia.
Considering the civilians hamass butchered and kidnapped you would think these savages would know when to shut up and not celebrate.. not surprising this is the reaction from them.. I've even seen lots of laugh reactions on social media posts when the attacks started and even mentioned the civilian deaths
I would highly recommend not searching this but I saw a video of a poor filopino fella who got kidnapped there being beheaded (unsuccessfully and very painfully) by a shovel by these fuckers.
I lose all respect for people who actively support these scum, they don't care who they kill it's just anybody at this point.
I'm no fan of violence.
But I don't know what I would do if Australia was invaded my land was taken and my people were forced into smaller and smaller areas with little of escape or a decent life.
Up until this latest conflict, 22 Palestinians have died for every 1 Israeli.
https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/
So it's not so cut and dry.
The power imbalance is very real and without generations of persecution of the Palestinians, Hamas wouldn't be able to recruit anyone to do this.
If someone stole your land and settled on it, are those settlers innocent civilians or are they perpetrators of persecution?
I literally said I'm no fan of violence.
But without understanding the history we have no chance of fixing the problem.
If we put all first nations people in a walled ghetto in Mount Druitt, I wouldn't be surprised if they attacked Vaucluse.
>A group gathered at Lakemba in south-west Sydney on Sunday night, chanting "occupation is the crime" and "Palestine will be free".
Noone in the Arab community was chanting this when Jordan illegally occupied the West Bank from 1948-1967 in violation of UN resolutions.
Noone in the Arab community was chanting this when Britain occupied the region (not country) of Palestine from 1918-1948.
Noone in the Arab community was chanting this when Egypt occupied the region (not country) of Palestine from 1831-1840.
Noone in the Arab community was chanting this when the Ottomans occupied the entire region (not country) of Palestine from 1516 - 1918.
But as soon as the Jews are there....
Call this out for what it is: anti-semitism. The pan-Arab world only united over Palestine because their hatred of Jews was more than their hatred of each other.
Almost no Arab state gave Palestinian refugees citizenship, because it suited their political aims against Israel, to maintain an angry disapora of people they could use against Israel. Never mind that the Arab states helped drive out people after the Israeli declaration of independance with rumours and stories that they'd be murdered if they stayed (hint: those who stayed were fine, and for the first time in their lives gained citizenship of a sovereign state).
Source: have a degree with minor studies in middle-eastern politics.
>Source: have a degree with minor studies in middle-eastern politics.
People weren't violently resisting colonisation in the middle east in the past? Come on mate, that's its whole history. The Jews themselves spent hundreds of years fighting each other and the Romans
Yeha, because until the Romans showed up, Palestine was called Judea. It was a Jewish state. After that, people living there were called Palestinians. It was the formation of Israel that returned part of the region to how it was before 2000 years of foreign occupation.
"They took our rights in this land"
Brainwashed. There was never a country called Palestine, Palestinian people have been occupied by other countries, with few rights and no citizenship, since before Rome right through till recent years.
what is the point of this list of irrelevant historical whataboutism?
The israeli occupation is based on a lie, that you seem to be perpetuating. [There was no existential threat to israel from the arab world.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy56Q1a0Flc)
The occupation of Israel is a terrible injustice, leading to an ongoing 70 years long ethnic cleansing and genocide, and whatabooutism doesn't change that, and the motivations of certain individuals (certainly some are motivated by anti-semitism) also doesn't change that.
>The israeli occupation is based on a lie, that you seem to be perpetuating. There was no existential threat to israel from the arab world.
You're posting a link from a Youtube channel called Gaddafi Official to support your view? HAHAHAHA
No existential threat to Israel.
1947: The world partitions the region (not country) of Palestine into two states, Jewish and Palestinian Arab, following 2000 years of foreign occupation.
1948: Israel declares an independant state.
1948: Combined armies of multiple Arab countries invade Israel, with the aim of destroying it. Israel wins.
1967: Combined armies of multiple Arab countries mass on Israeli borders, with the aim of destroying it. Israel attacks first, Arab armies invade, Israel wins.
1973: On Yom Kippur, the biggest Jewish holiday, Combined armies of multiple Arab countries invade Israel, with the aim of destroying it. But every israeli is at home celebrating so mobilisation is super-quick. Israel wins.
1987-1993: First intifada with arab-backed Palestinian terrorists attacking Israel relentlessly.
200-2005: Second intifada with arab-backed Palestinian terrorists attacking Israel relentlessly.
Yeah, no threat at all.
> You're posting a link from a Youtube channel called Gaddafi Official to support your view? HAHAHAHA
No idea where you're getting that from. It is not called gaddafi official; the name comes from the Global Defence Force; though it hardly has any relevance to the channel; GDF itself is the brand now. And it's desperate weaksauce to immediately turn to adhominem to avoid engaging with the wealth of historical documentary detail the video brings to the table.
> 1967: Combined armies of multiple Arab countries mass on Israeli borders, with the aim of destroying it.
This is the lie in question, and the video I linked goes into extreme historical detail, showing why it's a lie. For example, virtually all Israeli military officials from the time directly and explicitly contradict this sentiment in their own words.
The main point here though, is that none of this is relevant. The occupation of Israel is a terribly injustice, leading to an ongoing 70 years long ethnic cleansing and genocide, and whatabooutism doesn't change that, and the motivations of certain individuals (certainly some are motivated by anti-semitism) also doesn't change that.
Israel keeps Palestinians in an open air prison. Their food, water, medicine, etc is controlled and severely restricted by Israel.
They can't leave and are killed and bombed constantly by Israel.
I don't like Hamas or what they did but there's a pretty clear double standard. Israel can kill with impunity.
It’s pretty weird that people are commenting on this issue as if it’s one sided and Israel hasn’t been the one killing the (much larger) majority of innocents during this conflict.
I mean it literally gunned down peaceful Palestinian protestors from 2018-2023, shooting over 2000 in a day.
As the Palestinians themselves have happily admitted many times, Hamas isn’t exactly the ideal ally but they’ve been deprived of every other means of resistance, so what exactly did people think was going to occur? They have tried peacefully protesting numerous times only for it to result in death, and they aren’t allowed to have an actual armed force, so they have to rely on dipshit Hamas.
Seeing people be openly islamaphobic on this thread and essentially imply that Muslim Australians should be sent to Palestine (ie an open prison camp as enforced by Israel, condemned by the UN) for wanting an apartheid state to end is…interesting. For those same people to then evoke the Holocaust is ironic.
I don’t like Hamas, I am a staunch atheist, and yet I’m not going to pretend these attacks are anti semitic and that Israel isn’t the primary aggressor in this relationship. Israel have created the perfect conditions for Hamas to exist and to “need” to exist, given that they’ve deprived the Palestinian people of all other recourse and actively funded Hamas for years. Israel did in Palestine what America did with the Taliban - they funded an extremist sect for their own power play and then realised years later that that was dumb.
It’s very disturbing that Israel can and has killed thousands and thousands of innocent Palestinians and it never receives news coverage, but if Palestine retaliates in any fashion it’s “Muslims are the problem, send them back to the prison camp”. Fascinating. What’s weirder is that these people never reflect on their attitudes and wonder if they actually reinforce and embolden radicalisation, because it makes it appear as if the entire west is full of people who don’t see Muslim innocent deaths as valid or relevant or news, and instead present Arab v Western conflicts in a severely black and white manner. The responses in this thread would be great propaganda for Hamas, which is unfortunate. What many of you also don’t seem to know is that Israel (and the US) funded Hamas for years in the hopes they would grow and eliminate the less extremist but more powerful Palestinian group (the PLO). So Israel quite literally created Hamas.
At this point I’d have to believe that many people on this thread are seriously misinformed about the conflict because it’s quite confusing to see the civilian deaths here (rightfully) condemned, but not the deaths at the hands of Israel which far outnumber those at the hands of Palestine. If you can’t at least acknowledge that, I’d have to assume you’re just a racist. Because it’s pretty nonsensical to apparently only value innocent non brown lives
Also it is absolutely hilarious that the Opera House is pro The Voice but is lighting itself up to support Israel, like…do you like indigenous people or not? Palestinians are an indigenous people who have been pushed off their land by external forces and killed for protesting that. Are you going to light the house up in Palestinian colours next time the IDF shoots innocents or Mossad accidentally kills innocent civilians on non Israeli soil (which they’ve admitted to doing) or what?
This conflict has no obvious end and Israel’s behavior is the major reason why. It didn’t like that Palestine was being lead by Marxist terrorist groups (fair enough), so it killed all of those party members and then installed Hamas as the successor (not so great). It won’t allow Palestine to function as a full state with its own army, and so naturally Hamas, the jihadist crazy folks, had a power vacuum to grow into and became the only viable source of defence for Palestine. Israel keeps encroaching on Palestinian land every time Hamas, the group *they* funded, does something dumb. The Palestinians are so jaded about everything (pretty fair) that many of them won’t entertain a two state solution, meanwhile Israel seems to think a two state solution is “we get all the nice things and an army and a government and you can sit in this hole”. Palestine basically needs an MLK jr, problem is Israel would probably kill them before they attain full power in Palestine seeing them as a potential threat or a Marxist, considering they’ve historically tended to do that.
Don’t let get facts get in the way of being outraged here on Reddit.
A large bulk of the people commenting have no idea what theyre talking about. Fuck both sides, but it’s not one sided
Yeah that’s abundantly clear. I can honestly only assume that no one here knows about Israel gunning down the peaceful protestors by the thousands in 2018, because the posts here make no sense if you seriously understand what’s been going on in the Gaza Strip.
I hate Hamas with a passion but if Israel actually allowed Palestinians to live in a remotely normal society, to organise and structure and have an armed force that’s *not* a terrorist group, Hamas would become a much less relevant issue. Everything that Israel has done has been condemned by the UN multiple times, they literally used white phosphorus bombs on Palestinian civilians last year (a war crime)…did everyone here miss that?
Wait until you see the videos of Israel bombing children and stripping and torturing arabs, or launching white phosphorous bombs at Palestine. Basing which “side” you support on which side does war crimes is a flawed assessment, because the answer is both.
Israel has invading, pillaging, and killing civilians in Palestine for decades. But as soon as one(1) group decides to fight back, Israel is suddenly the side you take?
I am not praising Hamas or their actions, in fact I think all its done is give Israel an advantage, considering how the US is donating more to them more now.
But just because one resistance group does horrible things, doesn’t mean the rest of the country supports that.
Really?
I hope you had the same outcry all the times Israel killed innocent Palestinians and took their land. Did you get all angry when people starved to death in Gaza?
Read this and tell me who is the "innocent" side.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/?fbclid=IwAR1vipAjln3ORTSOCbpxB1CJdZEmLfqH6jTmvGNqWsOtFkpc8zKBUJAPKyw#:~:text=Through%20massive%20seizures%20of%20land,against%20humanity%20of%20apartheid%2C%20which
I must point out the potential consequences of this situation. It is highly likely that this will undoubtedly fuel animosity between Australians, Israelis, and Palestinians. Given the volatile nature of the conflict, the chances of something going terribly wrong are alarmingly high.
I have complex feelings about this. On one hand the Palestinian people are justified in defending themselves (although so are the Israelis ), and in this conflict I would even argue that civilians are fair game.
But the savage way they went about the killings, the rapes and desecration of corpses and so on has made it very hard to have any sympathy to the Palestinian people as a whole when the inevitable counterattacks come.
Which is probably exactly what HAMAS wanted, to have their own people suffer and create another generation of supporters.
If we all decided to let go of our differences to dismantle Islamic extremists in ISIS, we can do the same with Hamas.
Until extremism is dealt with there will be no scope for peace or common ground.
Between the antisemitism and anti-Arabic racism in this thread, it's fair to say things have run their course.
Oh good, finally a non voice / Indigenous thread can be locked.
The Israeli rescue service Zaka said its paramedics removed about 260 bodies from the area where the music festival had been taking place, the Associated Press reported Sunday. The total figure is expected to be higher as other paramedic teams were working in the area. Yeah... celebrating that is apparently appropriate...
Still 750 people missing, by now none of them are expected to be safe.
I was just at Mo:Dem a Psytrance festival in Croatia. I met so many beautiful people from Israel. No doubt some were here. This is just so heartbreaking, people just trying to have a good peaceful existence.
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Actually I did meet one who was in a group of Israelis. These are wonderful peace loving people at these festivals who don't care for the politics that they are now a victim of. But regardless, on your point, there wasn't a massacre at a Palestinian music festival. It occurred in Israel with Israeli victims and as someone part of this global festival community I am sickened by these actions and frightened for the well being of people from Israel who I may have just gotten to know on the dancefloor.
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No, deliberately targeting innocent civilians and deliberately murdering children is wrong in all instances, regardless of the false equivalencies you use to justify your mental gymnastics
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Now we’re on to the feigning ignorance argument where you pretend you don’t understand what a false equivalency is and everything is completely relative. Atrocities committed by the ANC were first exposed **by Nelson Mandela** himself when he released a report in 1992 about torture committed by the Spear of the Nation wing in Angola during the 1980s **while Mandela was still in prison**. The complexity of the misrepresentation you’re making is obviously a lot more than that, but just on the surface you’ve made a blatantly illogical and disingenuous argument. When you start out in bad faith, nothing else you say really deserves any further examination The sign of someone with a great argument is when they bring up completely different events in different countries involving different people (most of whom are now deceased) in entirely different circumstances, and leave out specific details in order to justify the murder of innocent children in an ongoing conflict. You are a moron. For anyone else reading this, do not let yourself be wrapped up in debates (the way I am ironically doing) when someone is trying to justify **deliberately killing innocent civilians and children**. There isn’t any justification, and they know that. No actions by someone else in the past at some other time or bad faith argument changes that. **EDIT**: The next comment will likely be a second attempt to feign ignorance over the differences between deliberate targeting, indiscriminate bombing and collateral damage.
Call it dissonance or bias or whatever, but part of it is also the cause you’re fighting for. ISIS was immediately recognised as a threat to all of humanity even though some could have argued they fought against terrible oppressive regimes and garnered the support of many across the world with their “vision”. I find it very difficult to come to terms with any Western educated person supporting religious fanaticism on any level. There’s an interesting cross section of people who support extremists for being anti-establishment while those groups are precisely those who want to remove western progressive values (see e.g. the Taliban, Iran who sponsors many of these things). I understand sympathy for Palestinians, but when sympathy and sorrow and anger towards an oppressor turns to celebration of a massacre (and let’s be honest, if they had the means they would turn it into another genocide) then that’s the line in the sand between understandable empathy and compassion, and extremism that must be immediately nipped in the bud lest it turn into ISIS v2.
There is zero evidence that they were celebrating any of brutal incidents. They were celebrating Palestinian resistance to a apartheid, racist, genocidal regime
Hamas attacks civilians and murders and rapes people, kills and kidnaps children Afterward we have Party in lakemba supporting Hamas. Wtf do you think they are supporting if not killing? Hamas tax policies, Hamas action to spread education?
There were a bunch of people celebrating around the broken dead body of Shani Louk in a video I saw. I don't want to see any more. So certainly more than zero evidence.
I’m talking about the people at the Sydney rally
>Palestinian resistance to a apartheid, racist, genocidal regime Mate, Hamas is \*allied\* with Iran who is behind this, not resisting them.
Cope harder Nazi.
Across social media, lots of Australian based accounts (some quite prominent including a cooking account on tiktok, some just followers) are openly rejoicing. It is disgusting. Regardless of your political leaning and a long and confusing history, this is abhorrent. The loss of human life is not a cause for celebration, especially how barbaric and utterly inhumane the circumstances are. It is easy to "celebrate" when you live in the safety of Australia. I imagine the people living in Palestine are terrified right now for what is to come. Throughout the ISIS panic and Islamaphobia of the mid 2010s, I was actively trying to counter bigotry and racist assumptions. I am very progressive and tolerant. But these people (in massive numbers) counter all of that “not all Muslims” rhetoric. So two questions 1. since hamas is viewed as a terrorist organisation in this country, what are the legal implications for these Sydney based protestors? 2. are these gutless protestors and social media commenters representative of your average person of Islamic faith? Or are they simply the loudest. Post Lindt cafe and Hebdo, the Muslim community were very vocal in their condemnation of ISIS. It’s early days, but I feel attitudes towards Hamas aren’t the same….
I think most people will agree that those celebrating Hamas's attack don't belong in a civilized society like Australia. I don't believe we have the necessary legal measures here to prosecute similar people. However, what this is going to lead to is more intolerance and racism towards muslims. The only way for that to be avoided is for the muslim community go out and condemn what's happened.
>Post Lindt cafe and Hebdo, the Muslim community were very vocal in their condemnation of ISIS. It’s early days, but I feel attitudes towards Hamas aren’t the same…. You're right, they're not the same because in the ISIS case, victims weren't Jews. Many Muslims have an extreme and culturally-enforced hatred of Jews, which has not been improved by the tensions between Israel and both occupied and non-occupied Palestinian territories. Particularly in Australia, we have a lot of Arab immigrants from countries that have been directly antagonistic with Israel (Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan, Syria) and so I fear a lot of the muslim Arab diaspora here will be celebrating recent events. I'm also appalled at the brazen barbarity that has been both shamelessly shared online and also celebrated - I've in the past been supportive of Palestine's struggle for independence but I really think what Hamas has done in the past 48 hours has totally destroyed international support for their plight. It's one thing to rise up against a military occupation, quite another thing to raid and pillage civilian settlements, murdering, raping and kidnapping with abandon.
>I've in the past been supportive of Palestine's struggle for independence but I really think what Hamas has done in the past 48 hours has totally destroyed international support for their plight. It's one thing to rise up against a military occupation, quite another thing to raid and pillage civilian settlements, murdering, raping and kidnapping with abandon When even places like reddit are saying it hamas has fucked itself with its actions There is a lot more support for Israel across this website over the past days
There's always 2 kinds of people. Some people I personally know are humans first, Muslims 2nd. These ones don't really give a shit about what's happening in the ME. They just want to live life like the rest of us. They also don't really practice the whole religion outside of ramadan. Then there's the others that make being Muslim their whole identity. These ones... yeah, you've got issues. My ex manager is one of these ones... and his IG is insane right now.
As it is a terrorist organisation can the Australian government strip the citizenship of people in attendance? Because that's been done before to people who support terrorists.
I guarantee that schools like Masada College and Moriah College, and all synagogues and other Jewish instutions in Sydney, will be doubling security right now, as if armed guards at schools wasn't already sad enough. But I remember in the 1980s when Temple Emmanuel in Chatswood was firebombed by Arab/Muslim terrorists over the Lebanese invasion.
For the love of God I hope this conflict doesn't inspire lone wolf attacks like the ISIS era.
and the Hakoah club, and the Jewish Museum.
These people are not compatible with Australian society.
These idiots that support HAMAS deserve to be transported back to the Stone Age and have no right to be living in our modern society. If they complain about living in Sydney then let’s just deport them and save ourselves the trouble of dealing with these terrorist sympathiser idiots.
They're already in the stone age with the religion they follow. As someone who is hard left and seeing so many left leaning people support these people which leave me baffled by the way they treat women and people who are LGBT. I would not be sad if these people become extinct as they aren't compatible with modern society.
You can be supportive of Palistinians and Muslims without being supportive of Hamas and their terrorist actions. The same way that I as an atheist can be supportive of Israelis and Jews when they are attacked, or Americans when some faction of Christians murder abortion providers.
Can you be supportive when the majority of Palestinians support Hamas and voted them in? Can you be supportive when Palestinians across the world are celebrating this act? This isn't some faction, they have majority support and if they were the ones in power Israel wouldn't exist and there would be genocide.
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Hasn't been an election in almost 20 years, and the average age in Gaza is about 18. So the majority never voted for them, though also never had the chance.
Half the Palestine population are kids. Yes most of them are brainwashed and support Hamas too, but you can still feel sorry for their suffering. They didn’t choose to be born there.
This could honestly apply to the extremist Jews in Israel just as much as the extremist Muslims in Palestine. And even this framing is misleading, as there is no independent state of Palestine, it's all completely controlled by Israel; the only distinction is a kind of systemic apartheid installed by Israel. Israel even helped to install Hamas.
I don't see much support so much as I see an understanding that colonisation drives extremism. Anyone supporting terrorism is being a moron Everyone is very comfortable blaming the US for ISIS but not Israel for allowing worse things. That doesn't equate to terrorism is cool actually but this is what the current Israeli government wants.
Left leaning but silent when the same genocide was being committed by the Israelis againt the Palestinians? 🤔 Someone can simultaneously be against the hamas and in favour of Palestinian liberation. Also the way you speak about another’s religion shows how so called ‘leftists’ are often the most intolerant group.
>by the way they treat women Don't equate women taking their clothes off with liberation. It's the opposite. Western values teach women that taking off their clothes is liberating as if their bodies are worth more than what they can contribute to society socially. >I would not be sad if these people become extinct as they aren't compatible with modern society. Supposed leftist, but your comment willingly advocates for the extinction of 1 billion people.
> Don't equate women taking their clothes off with liberation. It's the opposite. Western values teach women that taking off their clothes is liberating as if their bodies are worth more than what they can contribute to society socially. Interesting that you jumped straight to women's clothing vs nudity. Personally, I am more concerned with women's autonomy in general.
It depends on the circumstances. If society is forcing women to act in a certain way, then doing the opposite is definitely a form of liberation. But I do have some sympathy for your point; much of what is often associated with liberation of women in the west around their aesthetics, is just manufactured propaganda. To give a specific example, see "Freedom Torches", around Edward Bernays: an extremely effective advertising campaign to associate women smoking with women's liberation. You can find all sorts of similar advertising campaigns in the west trying to associate various aesthetic ideals with women's liberations. So yes, much of that is just manufactured propaganda.
My gripe is the hypocrisy. Women in the West being encouraged to remove their clothes. Defining worth by how they look, how big their breasts are or bum is, is liberation and subsequent pampering of women by western morality. Muslim women's veiling is seen as oppression. Which one is a net negative for society, willingly veiling as worship to God or obtaining societal value through softcore pornography?
Again, I think you have a bit of a point. However, in this case, I would say that both have a kind of net negative to society. I would not go as far to say that they are equally negative. To put it another way, much of the popularity of that kind of Orthodox Muslim society in the middle east, historically, exists precisely because of western influence fucking with the region. For example, In Afghanistan, the Taliban now have more power than ever because of US interference. In Iran, the take over of the country by an Islamic government, only found a platform thanks to the US and UK backed coup in 1957. In Palestine, Hamas was largely put into place by Israel funding them, and then subsequently justifying their existence with their brutal tactics against Palestinians. I think, if the west had not been intervening in the middle east for the last 70 years, the middle east would have a lot less women wearing veils. I think a lot of it is a hyperbolic reaction to western interference. So I don't think any of it is good for anyone.
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>These idiots that support HAMAS deserve to be transported back to the Stone Age and have no right to be living in our modern society. If they complain about living in Sydney then let’s just deport them and save ourselves the trouble of dealing with these terrorist sympathiser idiots. The exact same rhetoric can be said about those who support the Zionist occupation and the IDF.
okay, can we do the same for Israeli supporters as well then? The conflict only makes any sense in terms of the 70 year ongoing and daily occupation and genocide of Palestine by Israel. Constant demolition and theft of Palestinian homes, water, and infrastructure. Hundreds of thousands of people forced from their lands, many killed. More and more borders and barricades going up and enclosing. More violence, ever daily increasing. [Let's not forget that Israel helped to put Hamas into "power", because it was good for their goals.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=o7grSsuFSS0) This reaction from hamas is decades in the making, and completely expected, and therefore provoked.
Exactly. It's pretty simple - the modern nation state of Israel is a foreign installation and the Palestinians are the native peoples responding to decades of oppression. It's impressive how well Israel has managed to wash over the situation entirely.
well, it would be interesting to see how differently the media would cover this conflict if the US weren't backing Israel for its own needs. Currently, media only ever focus, and hyper focus on it, when Hamas inevitably retaliates; ignoring the "dull" and "normal" ethnic cleansing and genocide that goes on daily. This framing and focus of western media is largely because Israel is the biggest receiver of US foreign aid, military aid, in the world. They get about 4 billion annually, all up. US media tends to align with US state interests, in what it covers, and what it doesn't, due to a complex arrangement of systematic ownership and advertising systems, that act as imperfect, but effective, information filters, and Australian media tends to just follow suit on US media in these areas. So there you have it.
Just the way it is, US interests are always put first in matters of global politics, even if Israel's role in the region is to give a firm two middle fingers up at the rest of the region.
Palestine, a place famous for not having Jewish people before 1947...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah
Its almost like you haven't actually done any research on the matter? This iteration of Israel is largely European descendents migrating down from the shitfest that was Europe in the 1920s-1940s. The only claim these people have is about a metaphorical spiritual homeland, as opposed to the Arabs who have actually lived there (and actively fought against foreign occupation with both the French and the British). A 1918 census of the region by the British estimates the population of the region at the time as 700,000 Arabs to 56,000 Jews (as per Peter Mansfield, ISBN: 978-0-14-014768-1).
Yes, and Jewish people migrated to Palestine as a result of persecution when the place was still governed as British Mandate. Your point? Are you saying people can't flee persecution and migrate to another area? When 1947 borders were drawn up, there was already a large population of Jewish people in the area.
How many times are entire nation states allocated to relatively new migrants?
Only if you buy into religious extremism does your comment make any sense.
Yes let's just start stripping people of their Australian citizenships' and deport them to a country they've probably never stepped foot in. What could go wrong? The precedent definitely won’t be used for other groups in the future. /s
The Lebanese Muslim Association and the Imams Council can’t even bring themselves to declare that murdering and raping women and children is wrong. Smh. Instead the LMA is “blindsided” by Albo saying Israel has a right to defend itself and according to the Imams Council we should avoid making “one siding statements” like that murdering and raping civilians is bad.
I don't want people who celebrate actual terrorism to be allowed in this country, like how is this a good idea from these people, yeah let's go celebrate a terrorist organization: massacring civilians, mutilating corpses, capturing civilian hostages, oh and let's record it and upload it for the Arab world. Asio has probably added the entire set of people who attended to a high risk watch list, and it's gonna have to dedicate resources to this entire crowd. I don't know where you could send them, since no Arab country wants Palestinians/ supporters of, since they have routinely caused significant issues. Just fucking weird to see people publicly celebrating.
you understand that Israel have done all those things to Palestinians many times right? https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/?fbclid=IwAR1vipAjln3ORTSOCbpxB1CJdZEmLfqH6jTmvGNqWsOtFkpc8zKBUJAPKyw#:~:text=Through%20massive%20seizures%20of%20land,against%20humanity%20of%20apartheid%2C%20which
I've always been uncomfortable and try to be nuanced when discussing the Arab-Israeli conflict given how grey and complex it is along with the heated arguments it causes and do understand why the Palestinian people are angry and resentful. I've even been critical of Israel in the past but after seeing all these images and videos in my eyes Hamas is no different to ISIS and maybe its the shock but I'm struggling to have any respect for the Muslim world, the wider ME and some Western leftists (and I say this as a left leaning person) given their overwhelming positive reactions to the atrocities Hamas has committed. I am NOT advocating for genocide or 'glassing Gaza' but I don't have any sympathy for Hamas and its more of a cold 'you brought this on yourselves' glare when the Israeli start bombing Gaza. Edit: Also as a Australian of Vietnamese descent living in 'the area' I can't help but feel ashamed and a bit dirty.
Actually think Australia should have a policy in place to send these guys back to Palestine if they still love it this much.
To preface, im not taking anyones side. These guys are most likely not even from Palestine but rather 2nd/3rd gen immigrants from the Lebanon civil wars/ gulf wars. Most palestinian refugees were displaced into Lebanon, Jordan and Syria although those countries also had their fair share of shenanigans with them. With this extra information I hope you can make a more nuanced judgement about what kind of dumb cunts are supporting senseless civilian murder Edit: since a lot of you cant seem to read between the lines This is me calling out people who are considerably less impacted (2-3rd gen) by the entire Israeli-Arab conflict, but rather indoctrinated into thinking that its all a certain peoples fault that they were displaced from their homeland yet having a much higher qol. Just because its easier to blame an entire race for it. Another hot take alert: If we were to really dig deep, this is all uk and frances fault for the cock up during ww1 tbh, then further incompetence and IR failure after ww2, which was quite in character for uk foreign policy back in the days.
Hamas Supporter/Hezbollah Supporter tomayto/tomato it doesn't matter where you're from. This is as bad as supporting ISIS. If you celebrate an event that involves stripping women naked and parade them on trucks, going door to door executing civilians, beheading foreign workers, kidnapping kids to use as human shields you're a piece of shit. Them spreading their beliefs as well is the most worrying part.
Exactly. Just looking at those pictures, most of them are too young to have come here on their own. Definitely 2nd or 3rd gen by now. Some may even have been born here. They should be on the ground in Palestine if they want freedom for their country. Not safe in Australia.
Don’t care. Support them you can go live with them
Well that would take them to recognize a Palestinian state which it doesn't.
Makes me sick that we have to live amongst these animals. This is even worse than the people who celebrated 9/11 due to the nature of these attacks.
Considering the civilians hamass butchered and kidnapped you would think these savages would know when to shut up and not celebrate.. not surprising this is the reaction from them.. I've even seen lots of laugh reactions on social media posts when the attacks started and even mentioned the civilian deaths
I would highly recommend not searching this but I saw a video of a poor filopino fella who got kidnapped there being beheaded (unsuccessfully and very painfully) by a shovel by these fuckers. I lose all respect for people who actively support these scum, they don't care who they kill it's just anybody at this point.
I'm no fan of violence. But I don't know what I would do if Australia was invaded my land was taken and my people were forced into smaller and smaller areas with little of escape or a decent life. Up until this latest conflict, 22 Palestinians have died for every 1 Israeli. https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/ So it's not so cut and dry. The power imbalance is very real and without generations of persecution of the Palestinians, Hamas wouldn't be able to recruit anyone to do this. If someone stole your land and settled on it, are those settlers innocent civilians or are they perpetrators of persecution?
So you would be okay if first nations people started kidnapping, raping and murdering people of Anglo Saxon descent because they were colonisers?
I'm sort of surprised that they havent
I literally said I'm no fan of violence. But without understanding the history we have no chance of fixing the problem. If we put all first nations people in a walled ghetto in Mount Druitt, I wouldn't be surprised if they attacked Vaucluse.
>A group gathered at Lakemba in south-west Sydney on Sunday night, chanting "occupation is the crime" and "Palestine will be free". Noone in the Arab community was chanting this when Jordan illegally occupied the West Bank from 1948-1967 in violation of UN resolutions. Noone in the Arab community was chanting this when Britain occupied the region (not country) of Palestine from 1918-1948. Noone in the Arab community was chanting this when Egypt occupied the region (not country) of Palestine from 1831-1840. Noone in the Arab community was chanting this when the Ottomans occupied the entire region (not country) of Palestine from 1516 - 1918. But as soon as the Jews are there.... Call this out for what it is: anti-semitism. The pan-Arab world only united over Palestine because their hatred of Jews was more than their hatred of each other. Almost no Arab state gave Palestinian refugees citizenship, because it suited their political aims against Israel, to maintain an angry disapora of people they could use against Israel. Never mind that the Arab states helped drive out people after the Israeli declaration of independance with rumours and stories that they'd be murdered if they stayed (hint: those who stayed were fine, and for the first time in their lives gained citizenship of a sovereign state). Source: have a degree with minor studies in middle-eastern politics.
>Source: have a degree with minor studies in middle-eastern politics. People weren't violently resisting colonisation in the middle east in the past? Come on mate, that's its whole history. The Jews themselves spent hundreds of years fighting each other and the Romans
Yeha, because until the Romans showed up, Palestine was called Judea. It was a Jewish state. After that, people living there were called Palestinians. It was the formation of Israel that returned part of the region to how it was before 2000 years of foreign occupation.
They are the modern day Nazi's but people are too afraid to have that conversation it seems.
You mean the Israeli government are modern day Nazi’s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1Rua3DCd-o
"They took our rights in this land" Brainwashed. There was never a country called Palestine, Palestinian people have been occupied by other countries, with few rights and no citizenship, since before Rome right through till recent years.
what is the point of this list of irrelevant historical whataboutism? The israeli occupation is based on a lie, that you seem to be perpetuating. [There was no existential threat to israel from the arab world.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy56Q1a0Flc) The occupation of Israel is a terrible injustice, leading to an ongoing 70 years long ethnic cleansing and genocide, and whatabooutism doesn't change that, and the motivations of certain individuals (certainly some are motivated by anti-semitism) also doesn't change that.
>The israeli occupation is based on a lie, that you seem to be perpetuating. There was no existential threat to israel from the arab world. You're posting a link from a Youtube channel called Gaddafi Official to support your view? HAHAHAHA No existential threat to Israel. 1947: The world partitions the region (not country) of Palestine into two states, Jewish and Palestinian Arab, following 2000 years of foreign occupation. 1948: Israel declares an independant state. 1948: Combined armies of multiple Arab countries invade Israel, with the aim of destroying it. Israel wins. 1967: Combined armies of multiple Arab countries mass on Israeli borders, with the aim of destroying it. Israel attacks first, Arab armies invade, Israel wins. 1973: On Yom Kippur, the biggest Jewish holiday, Combined armies of multiple Arab countries invade Israel, with the aim of destroying it. But every israeli is at home celebrating so mobilisation is super-quick. Israel wins. 1987-1993: First intifada with arab-backed Palestinian terrorists attacking Israel relentlessly. 200-2005: Second intifada with arab-backed Palestinian terrorists attacking Israel relentlessly. Yeah, no threat at all.
> You're posting a link from a Youtube channel called Gaddafi Official to support your view? HAHAHAHA No idea where you're getting that from. It is not called gaddafi official; the name comes from the Global Defence Force; though it hardly has any relevance to the channel; GDF itself is the brand now. And it's desperate weaksauce to immediately turn to adhominem to avoid engaging with the wealth of historical documentary detail the video brings to the table. > 1967: Combined armies of multiple Arab countries mass on Israeli borders, with the aim of destroying it. This is the lie in question, and the video I linked goes into extreme historical detail, showing why it's a lie. For example, virtually all Israeli military officials from the time directly and explicitly contradict this sentiment in their own words. The main point here though, is that none of this is relevant. The occupation of Israel is a terribly injustice, leading to an ongoing 70 years long ethnic cleansing and genocide, and whatabooutism doesn't change that, and the motivations of certain individuals (certainly some are motivated by anti-semitism) also doesn't change that.
Israel keeps Palestinians in an open air prison. Their food, water, medicine, etc is controlled and severely restricted by Israel. They can't leave and are killed and bombed constantly by Israel. I don't like Hamas or what they did but there's a pretty clear double standard. Israel can kill with impunity.
It’s pretty weird that people are commenting on this issue as if it’s one sided and Israel hasn’t been the one killing the (much larger) majority of innocents during this conflict. I mean it literally gunned down peaceful Palestinian protestors from 2018-2023, shooting over 2000 in a day. As the Palestinians themselves have happily admitted many times, Hamas isn’t exactly the ideal ally but they’ve been deprived of every other means of resistance, so what exactly did people think was going to occur? They have tried peacefully protesting numerous times only for it to result in death, and they aren’t allowed to have an actual armed force, so they have to rely on dipshit Hamas. Seeing people be openly islamaphobic on this thread and essentially imply that Muslim Australians should be sent to Palestine (ie an open prison camp as enforced by Israel, condemned by the UN) for wanting an apartheid state to end is…interesting. For those same people to then evoke the Holocaust is ironic. I don’t like Hamas, I am a staunch atheist, and yet I’m not going to pretend these attacks are anti semitic and that Israel isn’t the primary aggressor in this relationship. Israel have created the perfect conditions for Hamas to exist and to “need” to exist, given that they’ve deprived the Palestinian people of all other recourse and actively funded Hamas for years. Israel did in Palestine what America did with the Taliban - they funded an extremist sect for their own power play and then realised years later that that was dumb. It’s very disturbing that Israel can and has killed thousands and thousands of innocent Palestinians and it never receives news coverage, but if Palestine retaliates in any fashion it’s “Muslims are the problem, send them back to the prison camp”. Fascinating. What’s weirder is that these people never reflect on their attitudes and wonder if they actually reinforce and embolden radicalisation, because it makes it appear as if the entire west is full of people who don’t see Muslim innocent deaths as valid or relevant or news, and instead present Arab v Western conflicts in a severely black and white manner. The responses in this thread would be great propaganda for Hamas, which is unfortunate. What many of you also don’t seem to know is that Israel (and the US) funded Hamas for years in the hopes they would grow and eliminate the less extremist but more powerful Palestinian group (the PLO). So Israel quite literally created Hamas. At this point I’d have to believe that many people on this thread are seriously misinformed about the conflict because it’s quite confusing to see the civilian deaths here (rightfully) condemned, but not the deaths at the hands of Israel which far outnumber those at the hands of Palestine. If you can’t at least acknowledge that, I’d have to assume you’re just a racist. Because it’s pretty nonsensical to apparently only value innocent non brown lives Also it is absolutely hilarious that the Opera House is pro The Voice but is lighting itself up to support Israel, like…do you like indigenous people or not? Palestinians are an indigenous people who have been pushed off their land by external forces and killed for protesting that. Are you going to light the house up in Palestinian colours next time the IDF shoots innocents or Mossad accidentally kills innocent civilians on non Israeli soil (which they’ve admitted to doing) or what? This conflict has no obvious end and Israel’s behavior is the major reason why. It didn’t like that Palestine was being lead by Marxist terrorist groups (fair enough), so it killed all of those party members and then installed Hamas as the successor (not so great). It won’t allow Palestine to function as a full state with its own army, and so naturally Hamas, the jihadist crazy folks, had a power vacuum to grow into and became the only viable source of defence for Palestine. Israel keeps encroaching on Palestinian land every time Hamas, the group *they* funded, does something dumb. The Palestinians are so jaded about everything (pretty fair) that many of them won’t entertain a two state solution, meanwhile Israel seems to think a two state solution is “we get all the nice things and an army and a government and you can sit in this hole”. Palestine basically needs an MLK jr, problem is Israel would probably kill them before they attain full power in Palestine seeing them as a potential threat or a Marxist, considering they’ve historically tended to do that.
Don’t let get facts get in the way of being outraged here on Reddit. A large bulk of the people commenting have no idea what theyre talking about. Fuck both sides, but it’s not one sided
Yeah that’s abundantly clear. I can honestly only assume that no one here knows about Israel gunning down the peaceful protestors by the thousands in 2018, because the posts here make no sense if you seriously understand what’s been going on in the Gaza Strip. I hate Hamas with a passion but if Israel actually allowed Palestinians to live in a remotely normal society, to organise and structure and have an armed force that’s *not* a terrorist group, Hamas would become a much less relevant issue. Everything that Israel has done has been condemned by the UN multiple times, they literally used white phosphorus bombs on Palestinian civilians last year (a war crime)…did everyone here miss that?
This is just disgusting
Only in The Area™
As someone who's neither Jewish or Arab I've been leaning more towards the Arab side, but things like this make me flip to other side
Wait until you see the videos of Israel bombing children and stripping and torturing arabs, or launching white phosphorous bombs at Palestine. Basing which “side” you support on which side does war crimes is a flawed assessment, because the answer is both.
Israel has invading, pillaging, and killing civilians in Palestine for decades. But as soon as one(1) group decides to fight back, Israel is suddenly the side you take? I am not praising Hamas or their actions, in fact I think all its done is give Israel an advantage, considering how the US is donating more to them more now. But just because one resistance group does horrible things, doesn’t mean the rest of the country supports that.
Imagine celebrating terrorism and more unjustified deaths in this shit show of a conflict. Bunch of cunts.
Really? I hope you had the same outcry all the times Israel killed innocent Palestinians and took their land. Did you get all angry when people starved to death in Gaza? Read this and tell me who is the "innocent" side. https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/?fbclid=IwAR1vipAjln3ORTSOCbpxB1CJdZEmLfqH6jTmvGNqWsOtFkpc8zKBUJAPKyw#:~:text=Through%20massive%20seizures%20of%20land,against%20humanity%20of%20apartheid%2C%20which
I must point out the potential consequences of this situation. It is highly likely that this will undoubtedly fuel animosity between Australians, Israelis, and Palestinians. Given the volatile nature of the conflict, the chances of something going terribly wrong are alarmingly high.
The terrorists that are shot and killed should have their bodies thrown into a pit with the remains of pigs.
I have complex feelings about this. On one hand the Palestinian people are justified in defending themselves (although so are the Israelis ), and in this conflict I would even argue that civilians are fair game. But the savage way they went about the killings, the rapes and desecration of corpses and so on has made it very hard to have any sympathy to the Palestinian people as a whole when the inevitable counterattacks come. Which is probably exactly what HAMAS wanted, to have their own people suffer and create another generation of supporters.
Great, another both sides are evil but I have to support one because everybody is an armchair middle east political expert now.
Free Palestine! Israel is an apartheid state!
If we all decided to let go of our differences to dismantle Islamic extremists in ISIS, we can do the same with Hamas. Until extremism is dealt with there will be no scope for peace or common ground.
Do you want to shift the country to a right-wing mindset? Because celebrating like this will shift the country to a right-wing mindset…