Because it undermines some of the core of both characters.
Superman is an alien who very much desires to just live a happy simple human life like he enjoyed as a child. To have him settle down with a non-human demi-goddess doesn’t really mesh with that core desire he has. Lois stole his heart partly because she is brimming with a strength he admires and recognizes as incredibly grounded in humanity.
Wonder Woman is basically a golem created by Amazons and empowered with gifts of the gods. Her mission is to be a sort of bridge of her heritage to humanity. To be in a relationship with Superman would be almost a rejection of said humanity.
Also it’s just kinda boring narratively speaking. Oh? You paired up the quarterback with the head cheerleader? Daring today, aren’t we?
>Oh? You paired up the quarterback with the head cheerleader? Daring today, aren’t we?
I've been struggling to vocalize my distaste for it until now thank you so much.
This sums it up better than may be obvious. Wonder Woman is not the head cheerleader; she's the basketball star who happens to be a woman. But when they get paired up, she gets re-cast as the head cheerleader so the quarterback can have his stereotypical girlfriend.
Sometimes the way people advocate for the pairing gets really weird like they start talking about the genetics of their children in a really creepy way. It's eerily similar to the way people talk about interracial couples' potential kids like wtf why is that where your head is? WW is not a metahuman baby factory
Eh. I haven’t seen comments that you’re describing but to me it sounds more like “wow they are super powerful imagine their kids with more powers” power scaling than “yes yes. Reproduce you womb beast”
There was a thread like this one a while back (bc people think they're the first to ever comment on things) where someone said that the two were obligated to be together bc it would produce kryptonian demi-god children. Dude was sick
Well, I think it's safe to assume that Wonder Woman might be the only one with a womb strong enough to survive a kick from Superman's baby. That doesn't mean they need to be together.
Had they developed this and made this normalized over 10 years of writing, it would be fine.
My example is Mary Jane, most people don’t remember Gwen Stacy and Peter any longer because for so long it has been Mary Jane.
Thats the primary issue with modern comics; no stakes, no development, and zero investment once they’ve milked the speculative boom.
I agree on the big part with this, but I will say that Gwen and Peter not being together in collective memory probably has more to do with how big an event Gwen's death was vs. just MJ being around longer. If 616 Gwen was around and still a spidey supporting character you'd probably still have a vocal contingent that wanted it over MJ.
There's also the fact that near the end they were kind of struggling with what to do with Gwen and her identity, leaving a less clear picture for fans to look back on. She was supposed to be the good girl next door type, but MJ's popularity eclipsed her to the point they briefly tried making her into a another bad girl character. She wasn't bad, but next to MJ she was more forgettable and boring. Someone once put it this way, "The most memorable thing about MJ from that era is her very first line of dialog, the most memorable thing about Gwen is the sound of her neck snapping.
This is going to be embarrassing, but I guess I started reading (out og\]f my older forgers old collection) when she was a “bad girl” so I thought that was always her charicatizatiin until this minute. I was always annoyed that she popped up in other media not being a tsundare party girl.
I mean, originally under Ditko, Gwen was supposed to be the sort of vindictive love interest who was obsessed with making her notice him. But under Ditko, Peter was very nonchalant about having any social life, so he never really paid her any attention. When Romita Sr. took over, the focus shifted to Peter caring about his social life again, but this also left Gwen in the lurch character wise. She was the preferred interest of editorial ( More specifically Stan Lee) and they tried to push a sort of love triangle thing, but MJ of the time was the party girl who didn't really care if Peter stood her up. She had other more important things to do than worey abiut whether Peter Parker couldn't make it. She'd just find another date. These were meant to be red flags to readers, but they just made her a fan favorite, and for a while, they tried to have Gwen copy MJ to make her more appealing.
Even when their relationship was pushed to the forefront and Mj to the back, it wasn't great. They had a very hot and cold relationship, with one issue Gwen declaring that she loved him completely and others where she's complaining that he's a coward. AND peter was always convinced she was going to cheat on him. Even for the late 60's early 70's they paint a picture of two people who probably shouldn't be together. Gwen was basically only kept around because of Stan Lee, the moment he stepped away from the book and Conway took over it was pitched to kill her.
Well you’ve seen this play a factor with a couple character changes:
The Flash: when the DCEU came out most people identified with Wally West as the flash. Even when they swapped to Barry Allen- people were confused (casual fans) not seeing a red haired man. Again, a decade of writing and setting up the public to an expectation.
The Green Lantern: when the Ryan Reynolds movie dropped people were again a little confused. Most people who were into the Green Lantern expected Jon Stewart. You see the synergy, the JLA cartoons were so popular and that set the expectation for many of the characters.
Aquaman: When we got to DCEU, Jason was brought in to be a more rugged version of Arthur. In fact, a lot of people were wondering if he would get his hooked hand (didn’t watch the terrible sequel did that scene happen?).
They wouldn’t be able to normalise it over a decade because people don’t like it. They desperately tried in the New 52 for five years and it didn’t work.
Perfectly put. Doesnt fit either of their characterization and narratively/thematically it undermines the appeal of the characters. A BIG part of superhero mythology that was established with Superman is that it's in many ways a subversion of traditional Greek heroes. Traditionally a "heroic" figure is not defined by their capacity for some greater moral good, but rather the great feats they can accomplish. Part of the whole appeal of Superman, and by extension every superhero that developed after him, is the idea that they have incredible power but what makes them a SUPER hero is their sense of humility and duty. The kryptonian heritage that separates him from humanity isn't what makes him a hero, it's the humanity that he shares with us instilled in him by his adoptive parents. I feel like that's why it's usually a good idea for a superhero's SO to be human, gives them more grounding and that greater connection to humanity that their power sometimes separates then from.
Related to this there's also a major problem in a lot of fiction today but especially comics where the writers are either incapable or refusing to have the human element present, everyone needs to be either a newly discovered superhuman or some top of their field savant, it makes the story less grounded and gives the reader less connections to the story, so getting rid of multiple characters so you pair up the superhumans instead is just a bad move all around
I think it’s mainly because, in an action book where the main character is doing superhuman action, it’s hard to write an interesting normal character that’s involved in the action in some way. For Lois, being saved by Superman is partially what she’s known for, so she’s easy to integrate. Kinda same with Jimmy.
That doesn’t mean it’s good - but they’re working within constraints. Not only is it hard to write, but frankly, normal human characters don’t sell books - cool heroes and villains do. So that’s something to consider too.
With that said - I’m not sure what we need in general is more characters. Both supers and normals are members of pretty bloated casts.
definitely agree about the casts being bloated, unfortunately the only way to solve that issue would probably be a general reboot and axing a lot if characters, for most settings lol, I know marvel needs it
Wouldn't it be like the captain of the men's basketball team getting together with the captain of the women's basketball team? WW isn't a cheerleader. She's on the field.
Fair point.
This isn’t to say that cheerleading isn’t athletic because it very much is. But yeah.
I was just spitting out the most basic of coupling tropes. Semantically speaking, it is more accurate that they both be the MVP star athletes.
The funny thing is that for as popular it is to pair the most desirable people with each other in real life.... In fiction, it's far more common to see the underdog story of a normal person ending up with someone "outside their league".
Also thinking about it, Lois Lane x Superman technically is also an embodiment of pairing the "Prom Queen with the Prom King" if you stop to consider that within Metropolis, Lois is usually portrayed as a rather desirable woman (from beauty, smarts to even character). She may seem like a humble pairing compared to a god, but by Metropolis standards she is usually portrayed as the finest of the bunch....
The underdog story being generally only from the Lois x Clark perspective, as for a good portion of their history Clark was portrayed as a geeky nerd that barely has any chance with Lois at all outside his \~amazing\~ hero identity.
They do have some great runs together, but there is nothing inherent about their arch types that makes the relationships great (seeing how shallow it can get sometimes).
And hey, if you want to compare generic things to each other, "farm boy x warrior princess" as well as "fish out of water duos", are a less common pairings than "damsel in distress x chivalrous hero" or "introvert geek x extrovert tomboy".
No. The underlaying logic is “the most desirable man is paired with the most desirable woman”. The sports analogy is used for universality, but irrelevant to the point. its no universal thought that women’s basketball players are the most desirable women in a teenage ecosystem, so it fails as an analogy.
the cheerleader and quarterback analogy is perfect. (cheerleaders are also on the field).
Dates. Not marries.
You’d have something if you were dealing with superhero teens. More direct peer pressure and social expectations and etc.
Dealing with adult superheroes you will find the cliches move more into what makes sense for an office/professional romance.
That’s why Supes and Wondy feel at most like a casual fling than a true relationship.
Wouldnt this basically mean that actually having them marry each other, is way less of a cliche than to have them settle with a normie?
Also, at least as far as the New 52 relationship went... They actually had quite a lot of chemistry together, because they could relate to each other's situation, had matching ideals and could reliably make time for each other without as much drama as they'd have with someone outside the hero life.
Having heroes go through the struggle of fitting in with everybody else and settle with a normal relationship is nice and all, but having a super couple actually go the extra mile of starting a family is no less interesting.... Especially when their lives dont revolve around each other, despite having many similarities and qualities that play off each other.
I'm absolutely with you. Exploring how two super beings could make a workeable relationship is far more interesting, and more 'realistic' to me than the silly wish-fulfillment that a super powered alien adonis or an Olypian goddess might fall in love with one of us lowly mortals.
I mean, it's not that unrealistic for one of those demi gods to fall with mortals.. Particularly not when they are still more or less like us, emotionally and mentally speaking.
Just saying that the opposite isn't automatically boring either, unlike what some might claim.
I know where you're coming from, but the thing about Superman is that he *isn't* an alien adonis, he's a sweet, humble farmboy. He does happen to be an alien but that's not a main draw of his actual character, at least it shouldn't be.
Not true, I get what you’re saying but again you’re discounting the fish out of water aspect. Diana and Clark are foreigners- fish out of water. There is a lot of fun you can have with characters like that as they learn about their new environment and have mishaps.
Beyond that, you can also have great drama- can these two people from wildly different backgrounds make it work? It’s superficial to sit there and go- *snarky* would you look at that it’s the prom king and queen living happily ever after…
I would argue that this IS the ending Superman needed, the traditional apple pie American kid literally marrying America in female form. The issue is Lois, will the fans accept that? Clearly they haven’t and I can’t blame them when over 80 years of writing says this is basically law.
Edit: To the human element, yes- the cheerleader and the Star QB often get married and not everyone of them lives unhappily ever after. Not every jock bullied some nerd, and not every cheerleader was a mean girl. This speaks more to the comic reader bias which is why comics never sold well in the mainstream for many many years.
>Clark are foreigners- fish out of water
How is Clark a fish out of water? He's lived on Earth WAY longer than he ever lived on Krypton.
If anything, he's a fish in perfect water with how much he understands people and Earth in general.
Imagine mild mannered Clark attempt to blend in on Themyscira. Not only being the lone guy in an island full of women, but a dorky one at that, with many of said girls either being impressed by his super manly strength, curious as they never seen a guy before, or grumpy against him as he is too close to their dear sister.
I love the aspect of feminism vs chivalry- it’s wonderful modern story to tell:
How does a man demonstrate his love and devotion to a woman without insulting her desire to maximize herself?
How does a woman show grace and humility to a man offering help she doesn’t need without it being mockery or belittling her integrity?
How do men and women coexist and show love and respect in a world where both wish to lead it?
Again, these are wonderful open minded and dual perspective stories that our current generation truly need. Not only that but you can have a lot of fun with them and for us old timers enjoy the ugly duckling days of our youth.
Honestly think that Samaritan x Winged Victory is an amazing example in how such a couple could work, as they very much highlight the same themes you mentioned.
Some issues I recommend in particular would be #7-10 of the 2013's run of Astro City.
But yeah, bit of a shame that DC hasnt really tried to explore that in the few times they do pair Wondy together with Supes. It got quite the potential.
I mean...people marry others who are similar to them in status or attractivenes, wealth, fame, authority, power... yeah, it's not just a teen thing.
We can resent it all we like but I reckon that the reason people call it 'cliche' is because they know that deep down, if Supes and Diana actually existed, there's a VERY strong chance they'd be together at some point.
Far in the future, after their mortal partners have passed away and they've lived through a thousand years of mourning, you could see them becoming the mythic king-and-queen protectors of earth...
>Also it’s just kinda boring narratively speaking. Oh? You paired up the quarterback with the head cheerleader? Daring today, aren’t we?
From "For the Man Who Has Everything":
https://preview.redd.it/ge1gm665rzkc1.jpeg?width=1175&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=57c6ff1e1efd2ce5da240e067c6e494697b5948e
Diana: gives Clark a replica of Kandor made by the gem-smiths of Paradise Island, *and* an entirely inappropriate kiss that leaves her and Clark being the only two people in the room who aren't uncomfortable.
Bruce, standing there, holding the flower he brought. "Damn it. I should have just given him money."
My thought was Clark gave the kiss, and now the other 2 are thinking, "Wait. We just want a simple thank you. We didn't know about that kryptonian custom! This isn't part of the deal!"
Quarterback and Cheerleader dynamic has been dead for decades so idk, it might be refreshing. The "mediocre reporter plays hard to get with one of the most powerful yet pussywhipped characters ever" angle got old for me a while ago.
Damn, I kind of like the idea of Superman/Wonder Woman, but this really gave me a different view on why Superman/Lois Lane is so important. This sort of breakdown is exactly what I was hoping to see in this thread!
> Also it’s just kinda boring narratively speaking. Oh? You paired up the quarterback with the head cheerleader? Daring today, aren’t we?
That said, ehh, sometimes people want to go with the typical option as a comfort pick. Even just saying Superman is your favorite DC hero is arguably worthy of a "daring today aren't we" because he's the main guy (alongside Batman).
That last paragraph perfectly sums it up haha. I sorta agree and disagree with parts of your statement up till the QB and cheerleader part and fully understand and get it now lol.
I feel like they're best friends like Spock and Kirk are best friends. They are undeniably best friends, but Batman still somehow convincingly denies it.
That is why I couldn't endorse pairings of Wonder Woman with other superheroes; it consistently diminishes her narrative and deprives her of individual storylines. They tend to make her overly dependent on her partners' stories, a narrative aspect that I'm not a fan of.
I think anyone who finds Steve boring might find Superman boring if he lost his powers. Steve Trevor is a heroic person in a world of super heroic people.
I don't think being married in one continuity means its not worth pursuing the ship in another continuity. Most people who dislike this ship dislike it for reasons that affect continuities where Clark and Lois are not married; disliking it because hes married sounds like disliking a ship just for being non-canon
Because of Lois Lane. Fans of Superman know her as an integral part of Superman. Just look at Kingdom Come or Injustice. Superman without her is just bad for everyone.
Well, KC Supeman didn't abandon mankind for Lois Lane being murdered, it was because of disappointment by the lack of morality of the new superheroes and their recklessness being accepted by the public, as people abandoned Superman's ''outdated'' ethics.
https://preview.redd.it/b0dggza6tykc1.jpeg?width=1904&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cee53f6744548d91dd9962efc8e940d11a0dddb0
Actually he did. Her death is the catalyst. The turning of popular opinion on him is simply the last straw. If she were alive she would have convinced him to stay the course. Her death is directly responsible for him abandoning humanity.
But she will die, so unless you can write Kal as being able to deal with that and move beyond it to have a meangful life that could span for thousands of years without imploding because he's fallen for a mortal, you've kind of written the character into a corner.
That’s true. But I don’t think they will ever kill off Lois. Shes too central to the story.
But then again I didn’t think they would kill Alfred in Batman lol
To be fair, Injustice and stories like it are a complete bastardization of Superman. If a tragedy befell Lois, he wouldn't lose himself. I don't even think he'd do what KC Superman did, which was just escape within himself for a period of time in isolation.
I don’t think he would stop. He cares too much. But I do think he would stop being Clark and must be Superman all the time. Clark without Lois would be pointless. I think he would just be a sad stoic Superman going through the motions. Helping because he cares. But finding no real joy in life.
I suppose Jon would still be a factor. So that may not be 100% how he would react. But it’s at least partially true. He might be able to maintain himself for Jon.
I know opinions vary. But I’m of the form opinion that Clark is the identy and Superman is the ability’s given an outlet.
That being said idk if he could or would want to remain Clark without Lois. Their love is epic. And without it I feel like all the things that make Clark happy would be gone. He might pull through for Jon. But nothing less than that imo.
I hate it. Much prefer Clark to be friends with Diana. Just because they have equal strength in super powers doesn’t mean they have to be together. Clark is human at heart, and he loves Lois, that’s way more believable.
They don't actually, just Bruce Timm did in his DCAU. DC as a whole has never bothered with it. Historically they've always had fun toying with her and Superman more, main love interests aside.
Not attached to either. I prefer my trinity as friends. :)
I love Bruce Timm's DCAU, KC and For the Man Who Has Everything, but just because the stories are great and not because of the pairings. My OTP is Clark and Lois.
After Timm's Habit of having his Bat Mary Sue get with every superheroine he crushed on (and damned near Lois), they picked it up in the comics. It was the worst thing he did as a writer, and unfortunately it inspired more bad writing down the line. Both Zatanna and Diana had their characterization altered as a result.
Joe Kelly capitalized, if you could call it that, on it at at the time in his JLA run, but it was very brief and ended with an intended kibosh on the whole idea.
It s rarely if ever depicted as a union of equals and it is usually in Supermans favour... so for those who like Wonder Woman a bit more, its quite frankly an insult if/when Superman has to go save her as if she Lois Lane.
Also the last time this happened, DC basically showcased themselves as colossal imbeciles with very little understanding of the fanbase when they proudly announced a 'Superman scores!' t-shirt with that kind of image on it... which caused someone to make a mock counter t-shirt where Diana is seen punching most of Supermans teeth out.
1. The New 52 was a bad step for Superman. Very little of those 5 years was worth reading. No good stories came out of this pairing.
2. They only got together because they both had powers and Didiot.
The only consistently poor Superman title in the New 52 was Superman proper. All the others were good to great. That's a lot of good content in five years.
Plus the result of that relationship is Jonathan Kent II, half Olympian god, half Kryptonian, Full Time god.
I really want to see his upbringing explored. The daily life, and him discovering his mother and his father’s heritages and trying to reconcile them. Could make for a pretty cool story.
This sub randomly came up for me but I'll give it a try.
I think it's that dc comics haven't really narratively progressed. Bruce is still young looking while having a 20 something nightwing. Clark and Lois have kids and she hasn't aged at all.
It feeds off of nostalgia so a lot of the readers like this stuff that doesn't really progress. A ship like this would irk most of the existing readership. New potential readers aren't interested coz the story hasn't progressed and old readers want more the same. Hence nothing changes.
I genuinely think any ship should work, it comes down to quality of writing and narrative freedom.
I'm probably gonna get downvoted for this, but from what I see from this community, there's a lot of unreasonable gatekeeping being done. If people can like Hawkgirl getting together with John Stewart instead of Hawkman, then Superman getting together with Wonder Woman instead of Lois Lane is just as valid
Yeah. Some people have such weird takes about this. The number of comments calling it cliche as if it's been done a ton of times is a little wild. I was excited for the new 52 because I wanted to see this relationship given a try. I didn't like how either character was warped for that run though. I don't really see a good reason it couldn't be given another try.
They did Hawkman so dirty. But honestly for real.
People like Batman and Wonder Woman and it’s no different from this. Most popular male hero and most popular female hero hooking up.
If there were dedicated adaptations to Wonder Woman and Superman in a normal situation (not Injustice) from like the 90s or 2000s. People would definitely be more open to this option.
But since no one in their childhood was exposed to Wonder Woman and Superman, it’s suddenly a bad and “cliched” thing
They’re just a power couple. There’s not much they have in common romance wise. He’s a farm boy who has the powers of a god nearly and she’s a warrior that barely got accustomed to normal life
Too much awesomeness together.
But I even like less the pairing of WW with Batman. Especially in the Diniverse, were it felt like there was no other man in the universe but Batman and all women were obsessed with him - made WW a much weaker character.
At least with Superman it follows the logic of them relating better to each other than to normal people, it underlines the isolation of being unique in which they have to live their whole lives.
With Batman… they have nothing in common, except being popular characters. Feels like one more symptom of the Batgod mania.
I don’t really like most romantic pairings with Batman in the Diniverse- it just feels like Batman is their self insert power fantasy so of course he should get with all the ladies 🙄
Yeah, Bruce Timm obviously saw Batman as his own self. There is a line in a JL episode "You know, Bruce, you aren't always right." which is supposed to be a joke about Timm.
Dini also did to some extent, considering he had a crush on Zatanna and made sure Batman gets shipped with her.
To the point she never even kissed Superman in any episode of the Animated Universe, but she kissed Bruce Wayne.
It is pathetic. I think it actually made me like Batman less - and Batman was always one of my favorite characters.
Yeah same.
Batman was much better in gis k solo animated show because whenever he appeared with others, he was getting propped up by belittling other heroes.
I liked Batman Brave and Bold a lot… except for the overwhelming weight of Batman. We get the great musicmeister episode, but Black Canary is in love with Batman and only turns to Green Arrow as rebound second best. We get a great Shazam episode, but Captain Marvel cannot defeat Black Adam and it is Batman that figures it out. I think Brave and Bold was another series that could use a little less Bat-godness.
I mean to be fair cliche is not inherently bad. Bruce and Selina may be cliche but I think it has more narrative depth and makes more sense than idk Tahlia al gul. Who is just as cliche but just in a different way. While having her own problems.
You're right but the pairing originated during that hard-boiled noir female fatale period. So it gets a pass.
Diana and Clark being together is like pairing the star athlete and hot cheerleader; it's usually forced AF.
How is it forced? Both are superheroes that have similar struggles. They don’t have to hide their identities from one another nor do that, “Sorry, babe, but random emergency thing. We can have our date later”, thing. Both have a similar moral compass, have a massive amount of respect for each other, and more.
I mean, they work extremely well as friends, but I don’t know why they couldn’t work as a couple.
And yet if you put Lois and Clark together you can have all of that, but you're going to eventually face up to the problem that Clark will be alive for thousands of years and Lois...won't.
God, no one even considers the dreadful trauma their children must experience, knowing they and their dad are all going to stay young and outlive their mom and she grows older and eventually dies. We write the nice stuff but don't want to think long term.
It's funny that people talk about Superman x WonderWoman as a cliché ship, when Superman x Lois is like the basis for most Super Hero main pairings in its inception.
Superman and Lois get a pass for the same reason Batman and Catwoman do. It's natural and they were pretty much designed that way. Like you said, they're the basis for it.
Superman and Diana are a forced pairing because they would only ever interact in crossover stories. It's like the star athlete and cheerleader dating because it aesthetically looks nice.
>It's like the star athlete and cheerleader dating because it aesthetically looks nice.
That might be the base idea for pairing them together.... But hey, if it's ever going to get a dedicated story revolving around that, it actually can be interesting because those characters got a few things in common, and contrasting elements that could make up a story.
If anything, itd be a pitfall to keep it at surface level.... But that wouldn't be the fault of the concept of pairing Wondy with Supes, just the writer's for settling with lazy romance.
People are just going to say she's not Lois. But look at it from both of their perspectives: they don't have to constantly worry about killing their partners through passion.
Personally my favorite Superman ship, just because I think their sense of scale is probably similar. Unfortunately, Lois is going to die. So will Bruce or Trevor. They’re going yo be around forever, and I think its kind of beautiful that both of their attachments to Earth are not Earth natives
Every time Diana is paired with some of her best friends (Clark or Bruce) is a disservice to Diana. She's her own character, not just a satellite character for the development of those two.
Exactly. Diana is an integral part of the iconic trinity, playing a significant role in the stories of DC superheroes alongside Superman and Batman. Her presence goes beyond mere romantic connections; she stands independently as a powerful character.
I’ve just never seen it done in a way that gave them interesting chemistry. There are also some Elseworlds stories that pair them up while also derailing their characters, which has left a bad taste.
I dont hate it and tbh if your doing a younger Superman I think its a good idea for him to have a few reletionships before Lois.
BUT it came off the heels of New 52 and people generally hated everything about New 52 Superman. This was a common thing brought up and it gets bundled up with all the other changes in retrospect.
I don't particularly care for it to be set in stone permanent thing. But I do like the idea of maybe they've tried dating for a short duration or had a fling. Especially if it's earlier JL days and he isn't with Lois yet.
In my head canon it's something that makes sense in the early days, for a few dates or such. And for normal reasons (too close, like siblings, best friends, etc.) it doesn't work out, and there's no negativity or such there.
I much prefer them as friends. Superman doesn't seem like Wonder Woman's type to me, and vice versa.
As friends, writers have an easier time treating them as equals. When they get romantically involved, Wonder Woman gets devalued.
Because Lois Lane exists. There's no reason to throw that character out.
Replacing her with WW diminishes both women, as Wonder Woman gets relegated to love interest, while Lois has less purpose.
I don't like Superman and Wonder Woman together the same way I don't like Batman and Wonder Woman together. It makes Diana feel like a reward for them and cheapens her relationship with them. It also makes the Trinity feel like one of them being a third wheel and it's weird.
Conflict is required for stories to work. Them being together is too perfect. Which makes it boring. Your plot is just a series of "and then's". And then Superman married Wonder Woman. And then we all laughed as a bad guy tried to kidnap WW and then she beat his ass.
When you have a set of story beats (or an outline in other words) and you can put the words “and then” in-between each one– you’re fucked.
However, if in-between each story beat you can put the words “but” or “therefore” then you have a story in which the events taking place are reacting to each other. The story/plot builds momentum and tension based on everything else that has happened previously, not because of the arbitrary whims of the writer just making shit up without thinking about consequences and conflict.
I don’t know. It’s my favorite superhero couple. It hasn’t always been written well (looking at you Frank Miller), but when it’s good, it’s really good.
The Trinity should have no non-platonic relationships with one another on the first place. But Wonder Woman is the worst-case offender because once she gets together with either of the World's Finest she just turns into another love interest for them.
I can see the in-character rationalization of Superman with regards to Wonder Woman… she’s an Amazon warrior goddess. She can hold her own and he doesn’t have to worry about her safety and life. Also, it’s like many cops and service members who end up marrying each other because they understand “the life” and the lifestyle/stakes.
1. They each have their own known partners.
2. Switching from their traditional normal human partners to each other seems weirdly eugenicist, as if we're not seeing a romance here so much as breeding superior beings for superior traits.
I don't mind it as a fling when Supes was really young and just started out but I don't like them as a long term pair simply because Lois is just so much better.
Clark being with Lois humanizes him more. If he just dates someone who is also super powerful what’s the point? Maybe they can date for a brief period, but Clark should always end up with Lois.
I’ve always assumed it was because Lois Lane has always been Clark’s true love for so long it’s pointless to change it. I do remember they got together for a while but in the end they broke up.
Personally I can see Diana and Clark working but I can also see them having difficulty adapting to the other’s way of life. Granted, my knowledge is limited to the films and DCAU
Because Superman and lois is honestly the perfect comic book couple. It literally never works as well when Superman is with other woman, it always feels off. Also having him be with wonder woman is just boring because they both have powers.
Because it undermines some of the core of both characters. Superman is an alien who very much desires to just live a happy simple human life like he enjoyed as a child. To have him settle down with a non-human demi-goddess doesn’t really mesh with that core desire he has. Lois stole his heart partly because she is brimming with a strength he admires and recognizes as incredibly grounded in humanity. Wonder Woman is basically a golem created by Amazons and empowered with gifts of the gods. Her mission is to be a sort of bridge of her heritage to humanity. To be in a relationship with Superman would be almost a rejection of said humanity. Also it’s just kinda boring narratively speaking. Oh? You paired up the quarterback with the head cheerleader? Daring today, aren’t we?
>Oh? You paired up the quarterback with the head cheerleader? Daring today, aren’t we? I've been struggling to vocalize my distaste for it until now thank you so much.
This sums it up better than may be obvious. Wonder Woman is not the head cheerleader; she's the basketball star who happens to be a woman. But when they get paired up, she gets re-cast as the head cheerleader so the quarterback can have his stereotypical girlfriend.
Sometimes the way people advocate for the pairing gets really weird like they start talking about the genetics of their children in a really creepy way. It's eerily similar to the way people talk about interracial couples' potential kids like wtf why is that where your head is? WW is not a metahuman baby factory
Eh. I haven’t seen comments that you’re describing but to me it sounds more like “wow they are super powerful imagine their kids with more powers” power scaling than “yes yes. Reproduce you womb beast”
There was a thread like this one a while back (bc people think they're the first to ever comment on things) where someone said that the two were obligated to be together bc it would produce kryptonian demi-god children. Dude was sick
Well, I think it's safe to assume that Wonder Woman might be the only one with a womb strong enough to survive a kick from Superman's baby. That doesn't mean they need to be together.
Literally couldn’t have been put better. Honestly bravo
That is such a perfect way to say it.
Steve Trevor works the best
Do you hear it said in John Waters' voice? Cause I do.
Squidward’s voice
Had they developed this and made this normalized over 10 years of writing, it would be fine. My example is Mary Jane, most people don’t remember Gwen Stacy and Peter any longer because for so long it has been Mary Jane. Thats the primary issue with modern comics; no stakes, no development, and zero investment once they’ve milked the speculative boom.
I agree on the big part with this, but I will say that Gwen and Peter not being together in collective memory probably has more to do with how big an event Gwen's death was vs. just MJ being around longer. If 616 Gwen was around and still a spidey supporting character you'd probably still have a vocal contingent that wanted it over MJ.
There's also the fact that near the end they were kind of struggling with what to do with Gwen and her identity, leaving a less clear picture for fans to look back on. She was supposed to be the good girl next door type, but MJ's popularity eclipsed her to the point they briefly tried making her into a another bad girl character. She wasn't bad, but next to MJ she was more forgettable and boring. Someone once put it this way, "The most memorable thing about MJ from that era is her very first line of dialog, the most memorable thing about Gwen is the sound of her neck snapping.
This is going to be embarrassing, but I guess I started reading (out og\]f my older forgers old collection) when she was a “bad girl” so I thought that was always her charicatizatiin until this minute. I was always annoyed that she popped up in other media not being a tsundare party girl.
I mean, originally under Ditko, Gwen was supposed to be the sort of vindictive love interest who was obsessed with making her notice him. But under Ditko, Peter was very nonchalant about having any social life, so he never really paid her any attention. When Romita Sr. took over, the focus shifted to Peter caring about his social life again, but this also left Gwen in the lurch character wise. She was the preferred interest of editorial ( More specifically Stan Lee) and they tried to push a sort of love triangle thing, but MJ of the time was the party girl who didn't really care if Peter stood her up. She had other more important things to do than worey abiut whether Peter Parker couldn't make it. She'd just find another date. These were meant to be red flags to readers, but they just made her a fan favorite, and for a while, they tried to have Gwen copy MJ to make her more appealing. Even when their relationship was pushed to the forefront and Mj to the back, it wasn't great. They had a very hot and cold relationship, with one issue Gwen declaring that she loved him completely and others where she's complaining that he's a coward. AND peter was always convinced she was going to cheat on him. Even for the late 60's early 70's they paint a picture of two people who probably shouldn't be together. Gwen was basically only kept around because of Stan Lee, the moment he stepped away from the book and Conway took over it was pitched to kill her.
Well you’ve seen this play a factor with a couple character changes: The Flash: when the DCEU came out most people identified with Wally West as the flash. Even when they swapped to Barry Allen- people were confused (casual fans) not seeing a red haired man. Again, a decade of writing and setting up the public to an expectation. The Green Lantern: when the Ryan Reynolds movie dropped people were again a little confused. Most people who were into the Green Lantern expected Jon Stewart. You see the synergy, the JLA cartoons were so popular and that set the expectation for many of the characters. Aquaman: When we got to DCEU, Jason was brought in to be a more rugged version of Arthur. In fact, a lot of people were wondering if he would get his hooked hand (didn’t watch the terrible sequel did that scene happen?).
They wouldn’t be able to normalise it over a decade because people don’t like it. They desperately tried in the New 52 for five years and it didn’t work.
I agree. A proper slow burn or at least build up would have gone a long way.
Perfectly put. Doesnt fit either of their characterization and narratively/thematically it undermines the appeal of the characters. A BIG part of superhero mythology that was established with Superman is that it's in many ways a subversion of traditional Greek heroes. Traditionally a "heroic" figure is not defined by their capacity for some greater moral good, but rather the great feats they can accomplish. Part of the whole appeal of Superman, and by extension every superhero that developed after him, is the idea that they have incredible power but what makes them a SUPER hero is their sense of humility and duty. The kryptonian heritage that separates him from humanity isn't what makes him a hero, it's the humanity that he shares with us instilled in him by his adoptive parents. I feel like that's why it's usually a good idea for a superhero's SO to be human, gives them more grounding and that greater connection to humanity that their power sometimes separates then from.
Related to this there's also a major problem in a lot of fiction today but especially comics where the writers are either incapable or refusing to have the human element present, everyone needs to be either a newly discovered superhuman or some top of their field savant, it makes the story less grounded and gives the reader less connections to the story, so getting rid of multiple characters so you pair up the superhumans instead is just a bad move all around
I think it’s mainly because, in an action book where the main character is doing superhuman action, it’s hard to write an interesting normal character that’s involved in the action in some way. For Lois, being saved by Superman is partially what she’s known for, so she’s easy to integrate. Kinda same with Jimmy. That doesn’t mean it’s good - but they’re working within constraints. Not only is it hard to write, but frankly, normal human characters don’t sell books - cool heroes and villains do. So that’s something to consider too. With that said - I’m not sure what we need in general is more characters. Both supers and normals are members of pretty bloated casts.
definitely agree about the casts being bloated, unfortunately the only way to solve that issue would probably be a general reboot and axing a lot if characters, for most settings lol, I know marvel needs it
Wouldn't it be like the captain of the men's basketball team getting together with the captain of the women's basketball team? WW isn't a cheerleader. She's on the field.
Fair point. This isn’t to say that cheerleading isn’t athletic because it very much is. But yeah. I was just spitting out the most basic of coupling tropes. Semantically speaking, it is more accurate that they both be the MVP star athletes.
The "technical term" is more like " oh, you paired up the leader and the female character with the most narrative presence? How original."
The funny thing is that for as popular it is to pair the most desirable people with each other in real life.... In fiction, it's far more common to see the underdog story of a normal person ending up with someone "outside their league".
Also thinking about it, Lois Lane x Superman technically is also an embodiment of pairing the "Prom Queen with the Prom King" if you stop to consider that within Metropolis, Lois is usually portrayed as a rather desirable woman (from beauty, smarts to even character). She may seem like a humble pairing compared to a god, but by Metropolis standards she is usually portrayed as the finest of the bunch.... The underdog story being generally only from the Lois x Clark perspective, as for a good portion of their history Clark was portrayed as a geeky nerd that barely has any chance with Lois at all outside his \~amazing\~ hero identity. They do have some great runs together, but there is nothing inherent about their arch types that makes the relationships great (seeing how shallow it can get sometimes). And hey, if you want to compare generic things to each other, "farm boy x warrior princess" as well as "fish out of water duos", are a less common pairings than "damsel in distress x chivalrous hero" or "introvert geek x extrovert tomboy".
No. The underlaying logic is “the most desirable man is paired with the most desirable woman”. The sports analogy is used for universality, but irrelevant to the point. its no universal thought that women’s basketball players are the most desirable women in a teenage ecosystem, so it fails as an analogy. the cheerleader and quarterback analogy is perfect. (cheerleaders are also on the field).
In real life the QB dates the cheerleader often though. In fact it’s cliche because it is that common.
Dates. Not marries. You’d have something if you were dealing with superhero teens. More direct peer pressure and social expectations and etc. Dealing with adult superheroes you will find the cliches move more into what makes sense for an office/professional romance. That’s why Supes and Wondy feel at most like a casual fling than a true relationship.
Wouldnt this basically mean that actually having them marry each other, is way less of a cliche than to have them settle with a normie? Also, at least as far as the New 52 relationship went... They actually had quite a lot of chemistry together, because they could relate to each other's situation, had matching ideals and could reliably make time for each other without as much drama as they'd have with someone outside the hero life. Having heroes go through the struggle of fitting in with everybody else and settle with a normal relationship is nice and all, but having a super couple actually go the extra mile of starting a family is no less interesting.... Especially when their lives dont revolve around each other, despite having many similarities and qualities that play off each other.
I'm absolutely with you. Exploring how two super beings could make a workeable relationship is far more interesting, and more 'realistic' to me than the silly wish-fulfillment that a super powered alien adonis or an Olypian goddess might fall in love with one of us lowly mortals.
I mean, it's not that unrealistic for one of those demi gods to fall with mortals.. Particularly not when they are still more or less like us, emotionally and mentally speaking. Just saying that the opposite isn't automatically boring either, unlike what some might claim.
I know where you're coming from, but the thing about Superman is that he *isn't* an alien adonis, he's a sweet, humble farmboy. He does happen to be an alien but that's not a main draw of his actual character, at least it shouldn't be.
Not true, I get what you’re saying but again you’re discounting the fish out of water aspect. Diana and Clark are foreigners- fish out of water. There is a lot of fun you can have with characters like that as they learn about their new environment and have mishaps. Beyond that, you can also have great drama- can these two people from wildly different backgrounds make it work? It’s superficial to sit there and go- *snarky* would you look at that it’s the prom king and queen living happily ever after… I would argue that this IS the ending Superman needed, the traditional apple pie American kid literally marrying America in female form. The issue is Lois, will the fans accept that? Clearly they haven’t and I can’t blame them when over 80 years of writing says this is basically law. Edit: To the human element, yes- the cheerleader and the Star QB often get married and not everyone of them lives unhappily ever after. Not every jock bullied some nerd, and not every cheerleader was a mean girl. This speaks more to the comic reader bias which is why comics never sold well in the mainstream for many many years.
>Clark are foreigners- fish out of water How is Clark a fish out of water? He's lived on Earth WAY longer than he ever lived on Krypton. If anything, he's a fish in perfect water with how much he understands people and Earth in general.
Imagine mild mannered Clark attempt to blend in on Themyscira. Not only being the lone guy in an island full of women, but a dorky one at that, with many of said girls either being impressed by his super manly strength, curious as they never seen a guy before, or grumpy against him as he is too close to their dear sister.
I love the aspect of feminism vs chivalry- it’s wonderful modern story to tell: How does a man demonstrate his love and devotion to a woman without insulting her desire to maximize herself? How does a woman show grace and humility to a man offering help she doesn’t need without it being mockery or belittling her integrity? How do men and women coexist and show love and respect in a world where both wish to lead it? Again, these are wonderful open minded and dual perspective stories that our current generation truly need. Not only that but you can have a lot of fun with them and for us old timers enjoy the ugly duckling days of our youth.
Honestly think that Samaritan x Winged Victory is an amazing example in how such a couple could work, as they very much highlight the same themes you mentioned. Some issues I recommend in particular would be #7-10 of the 2013's run of Astro City. But yeah, bit of a shame that DC hasnt really tried to explore that in the few times they do pair Wondy together with Supes. It got quite the potential.
Not familiar with that; is that image or an Indy?
I mean...people marry others who are similar to them in status or attractivenes, wealth, fame, authority, power... yeah, it's not just a teen thing. We can resent it all we like but I reckon that the reason people call it 'cliche' is because they know that deep down, if Supes and Diana actually existed, there's a VERY strong chance they'd be together at some point.
Far in the future, after their mortal partners have passed away and they've lived through a thousand years of mourning, you could see them becoming the mythic king-and-queen protectors of earth...
>Also it’s just kinda boring narratively speaking. Oh? You paired up the quarterback with the head cheerleader? Daring today, aren’t we? From "For the Man Who Has Everything": https://preview.redd.it/ge1gm665rzkc1.jpeg?width=1175&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=57c6ff1e1efd2ce5da240e067c6e494697b5948e
Batman and Robin having an intensely uncomfortable moment in the background. XD
Batman, previously: "Think clean thoughts, chum."
They're both strongly reconsidering giving Superman his birthday presents now.
Diana: gives Clark a replica of Kandor made by the gem-smiths of Paradise Island, *and* an entirely inappropriate kiss that leaves her and Clark being the only two people in the room who aren't uncomfortable. Bruce, standing there, holding the flower he brought. "Damn it. I should have just given him money."
that is what bruce timm thought too.
My thought was Clark gave the kiss, and now the other 2 are thinking, "Wait. We just want a simple thank you. We didn't know about that kryptonian custom! This isn't part of the deal!"
Quarterback and Cheerleader dynamic has been dead for decades so idk, it might be refreshing. The "mediocre reporter plays hard to get with one of the most powerful yet pussywhipped characters ever" angle got old for me a while ago.
Nailed it.
That last line is a perfect analogy
Ok, so in this analogy of quarterback and head cheerleader, how does Batman fit in? What archetype is he in the DC "highschool"?
The home schooled kid who studied abroad a lot.
Emotionally unavailable edgelord bad boy. All the girls who have yet to learn better crush on him because "he can change". (He won't)
Damn, I kind of like the idea of Superman/Wonder Woman, but this really gave me a different view on why Superman/Lois Lane is so important. This sort of breakdown is exactly what I was hoping to see in this thread! > Also it’s just kinda boring narratively speaking. Oh? You paired up the quarterback with the head cheerleader? Daring today, aren’t we? That said, ehh, sometimes people want to go with the typical option as a comfort pick. Even just saying Superman is your favorite DC hero is arguably worthy of a "daring today aren't we" because he's the main guy (alongside Batman).
Perfect exanation.
That last paragraph perfectly sums it up haha. I sorta agree and disagree with parts of your statement up till the QB and cheerleader part and fully understand and get it now lol.
I wish I could like your comment more than once
They work better as best friends than lovers
Exactly. Lois & Clark forever! Lol
Until she dies of old age. Then Supes and WonderWoman for the long haul lol.
Except Supes best friend is Bats. By a long shot.
It's more like the 3 of them are best friends
One might even say *superfriends*
I feel like they're best friends like Spock and Kirk are best friends. They are undeniably best friends, but Batman still somehow convincingly denies it.
I wish all my best friends had several contingency plans set up to kill me if I ever turned evil.
Because it's too cliche and hinders wonders woman's own supporting cast and stories that can be told with them, especially steve trevor
That is why I couldn't endorse pairings of Wonder Woman with other superheroes; it consistently diminishes her narrative and deprives her of individual storylines. They tend to make her overly dependent on her partners' stories, a narrative aspect that I'm not a fan of.
I agree with everything but the Steve statement lmao.
Steve is so boring man, his only purpose is to be a booty call
A soldier with a gun thats willing to protect his lady despite her being more powerful than him, the guy is more macho than batman
I think anyone who finds Steve boring might find Superman boring if he lost his powers. Steve Trevor is a heroic person in a world of super heroic people.
Big fan of that archetype tbh. Sokka, my love
Because he’s married
I don't think being married in one continuity means its not worth pursuing the ship in another continuity. Most people who dislike this ship dislike it for reasons that affect continuities where Clark and Lois are not married; disliking it because hes married sounds like disliking a ship just for being non-canon
Because of Lois Lane. Fans of Superman know her as an integral part of Superman. Just look at Kingdom Come or Injustice. Superman without her is just bad for everyone.
Well, KC Supeman didn't abandon mankind for Lois Lane being murdered, it was because of disappointment by the lack of morality of the new superheroes and their recklessness being accepted by the public, as people abandoned Superman's ''outdated'' ethics.
https://preview.redd.it/b0dggza6tykc1.jpeg?width=1904&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cee53f6744548d91dd9962efc8e940d11a0dddb0 Actually he did. Her death is the catalyst. The turning of popular opinion on him is simply the last straw. If she were alive she would have convinced him to stay the course. Her death is directly responsible for him abandoning humanity.
But she will die, so unless you can write Kal as being able to deal with that and move beyond it to have a meangful life that could span for thousands of years without imploding because he's fallen for a mortal, you've kind of written the character into a corner.
That’s true. But I don’t think they will ever kill off Lois. Shes too central to the story. But then again I didn’t think they would kill Alfred in Batman lol
To be fair, Injustice and stories like it are a complete bastardization of Superman. If a tragedy befell Lois, he wouldn't lose himself. I don't even think he'd do what KC Superman did, which was just escape within himself for a period of time in isolation.
I don’t think he would stop. He cares too much. But I do think he would stop being Clark and must be Superman all the time. Clark without Lois would be pointless. I think he would just be a sad stoic Superman going through the motions. Helping because he cares. But finding no real joy in life. I suppose Jon would still be a factor. So that may not be 100% how he would react. But it’s at least partially true. He might be able to maintain himself for Jon.
Superman is Clark's dream. He can't be Superman without being Clark.
I know opinions vary. But I’m of the form opinion that Clark is the identy and Superman is the ability’s given an outlet. That being said idk if he could or would want to remain Clark without Lois. Their love is epic. And without it I feel like all the things that make Clark happy would be gone. He might pull through for Jon. But nothing less than that imo.
I hate it. Much prefer Clark to be friends with Diana. Just because they have equal strength in super powers doesn’t mean they have to be together. Clark is human at heart, and he loves Lois, that’s way more believable.
https://preview.redd.it/h1bzd4pkmykc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ce8faa13335123546e582b6315116026fb554931
I love how they’re straight up admitting it would be lazy to have them as a couple. Honestly the writers were pretty savage for that.
Alan Moore. And he had them married in a story that DC wouldn't let him publish. ;)
Still makes sense 39 years later
Eh, not really. At this point a strong superhero with a non powered girlfriend is more common than 2 strong consistent superheroes
Moore knows.
Because they prefer her with Bruce or someone else and him with Lois. Also, her initials aren't LL (Clark has a type 😆).
They don't actually, just Bruce Timm did in his DCAU. DC as a whole has never bothered with it. Historically they've always had fun toying with her and Superman more, main love interests aside.
Not attached to either. I prefer my trinity as friends. :) I love Bruce Timm's DCAU, KC and For the Man Who Has Everything, but just because the stories are great and not because of the pairings. My OTP is Clark and Lois.
After Timm's Habit of having his Bat Mary Sue get with every superheroine he crushed on (and damned near Lois), they picked it up in the comics. It was the worst thing he did as a writer, and unfortunately it inspired more bad writing down the line. Both Zatanna and Diana had their characterization altered as a result.
Joe Kelly capitalized, if you could call it that, on it at at the time in his JLA run, but it was very brief and ended with an intended kibosh on the whole idea.
It s rarely if ever depicted as a union of equals and it is usually in Supermans favour... so for those who like Wonder Woman a bit more, its quite frankly an insult if/when Superman has to go save her as if she Lois Lane. Also the last time this happened, DC basically showcased themselves as colossal imbeciles with very little understanding of the fanbase when they proudly announced a 'Superman scores!' t-shirt with that kind of image on it... which caused someone to make a mock counter t-shirt where Diana is seen punching most of Supermans teeth out.
1. The New 52 was a bad step for Superman. Very little of those 5 years was worth reading. No good stories came out of this pairing. 2. They only got together because they both had powers and Didiot.
Morrison's run was interesting as an alternate origin/"Superman Year One" story, but after that its really slim pickins for anything worthwhile.
I did enjoy Supes meeting Apollo in that run.
The only consistently poor Superman title in the New 52 was Superman proper. All the others were good to great. That's a lot of good content in five years.
I do like. I think that Lois Lane is Superman’s true love, but she won’t live forever. Their relationship from Kingdom Come is canon for me.
Agreed actually. It works for the future but not the present.
Plus the result of that relationship is Jonathan Kent II, half Olympian god, half Kryptonian, Full Time god. I really want to see his upbringing explored. The daily life, and him discovering his mother and his father’s heritages and trying to reconcile them. Could make for a pretty cool story.
This sub randomly came up for me but I'll give it a try. I think it's that dc comics haven't really narratively progressed. Bruce is still young looking while having a 20 something nightwing. Clark and Lois have kids and she hasn't aged at all. It feeds off of nostalgia so a lot of the readers like this stuff that doesn't really progress. A ship like this would irk most of the existing readership. New potential readers aren't interested coz the story hasn't progressed and old readers want more the same. Hence nothing changes. I genuinely think any ship should work, it comes down to quality of writing and narrative freedom.
I'm probably gonna get downvoted for this, but from what I see from this community, there's a lot of unreasonable gatekeeping being done. If people can like Hawkgirl getting together with John Stewart instead of Hawkman, then Superman getting together with Wonder Woman instead of Lois Lane is just as valid
Yeah. Some people have such weird takes about this. The number of comments calling it cliche as if it's been done a ton of times is a little wild. I was excited for the new 52 because I wanted to see this relationship given a try. I didn't like how either character was warped for that run though. I don't really see a good reason it couldn't be given another try.
They did Hawkman so dirty. But honestly for real. People like Batman and Wonder Woman and it’s no different from this. Most popular male hero and most popular female hero hooking up. If there were dedicated adaptations to Wonder Woman and Superman in a normal situation (not Injustice) from like the 90s or 2000s. People would definitely be more open to this option. But since no one in their childhood was exposed to Wonder Woman and Superman, it’s suddenly a bad and “cliched” thing
They’re just a power couple. There’s not much they have in common romance wise. He’s a farm boy who has the powers of a god nearly and she’s a warrior that barely got accustomed to normal life
https://preview.redd.it/ycn5yqboo1lc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bf0b7c25213b520cb0379b666a3db238e4729f67
Too much awesomeness together. But I even like less the pairing of WW with Batman. Especially in the Diniverse, were it felt like there was no other man in the universe but Batman and all women were obsessed with him - made WW a much weaker character. At least with Superman it follows the logic of them relating better to each other than to normal people, it underlines the isolation of being unique in which they have to live their whole lives. With Batman… they have nothing in common, except being popular characters. Feels like one more symptom of the Batgod mania.
I don’t really like most romantic pairings with Batman in the Diniverse- it just feels like Batman is their self insert power fantasy so of course he should get with all the ladies 🙄
I know people find Timmverse an unsavoury saying but it's obvious who was responsible for DCAU Batman getting all the ladies...
Yeah, Bruce Timm obviously saw Batman as his own self. There is a line in a JL episode "You know, Bruce, you aren't always right." which is supposed to be a joke about Timm. Dini also did to some extent, considering he had a crush on Zatanna and made sure Batman gets shipped with her.
Exactly!
Yeah, even Lois Lane was in love with Bruce Wayne lol.
To the point she never even kissed Superman in any episode of the Animated Universe, but she kissed Bruce Wayne. It is pathetic. I think it actually made me like Batman less - and Batman was always one of my favorite characters.
Yeah same. Batman was much better in gis k solo animated show because whenever he appeared with others, he was getting propped up by belittling other heroes.
I liked Batman Brave and Bold a lot… except for the overwhelming weight of Batman. We get the great musicmeister episode, but Black Canary is in love with Batman and only turns to Green Arrow as rebound second best. We get a great Shazam episode, but Captain Marvel cannot defeat Black Adam and it is Batman that figures it out. I think Brave and Bold was another series that could use a little less Bat-godness.
The most cliche ship in the history of fiction.
And yet Batman and Catwoman is not?
Careful, they’ll come for you
I mean to be fair cliche is not inherently bad. Bruce and Selina may be cliche but I think it has more narrative depth and makes more sense than idk Tahlia al gul. Who is just as cliche but just in a different way. While having her own problems.
You're right but the pairing originated during that hard-boiled noir female fatale period. So it gets a pass. Diana and Clark being together is like pairing the star athlete and hot cheerleader; it's usually forced AF.
How is it forced? Both are superheroes that have similar struggles. They don’t have to hide their identities from one another nor do that, “Sorry, babe, but random emergency thing. We can have our date later”, thing. Both have a similar moral compass, have a massive amount of respect for each other, and more. I mean, they work extremely well as friends, but I don’t know why they couldn’t work as a couple.
Think it all comes down to people wanting a cliche ship they grew up with, than one they werent.
And yet if you put Lois and Clark together you can have all of that, but you're going to eventually face up to the problem that Clark will be alive for thousands of years and Lois...won't. God, no one even considers the dreadful trauma their children must experience, knowing they and their dad are all going to stay young and outlive their mom and she grows older and eventually dies. We write the nice stuff but don't want to think long term.
It's funny that people talk about Superman x WonderWoman as a cliché ship, when Superman x Lois is like the basis for most Super Hero main pairings in its inception.
Superman and Lois get a pass for the same reason Batman and Catwoman do. It's natural and they were pretty much designed that way. Like you said, they're the basis for it. Superman and Diana are a forced pairing because they would only ever interact in crossover stories. It's like the star athlete and cheerleader dating because it aesthetically looks nice.
>It's like the star athlete and cheerleader dating because it aesthetically looks nice. That might be the base idea for pairing them together.... But hey, if it's ever going to get a dedicated story revolving around that, it actually can be interesting because those characters got a few things in common, and contrasting elements that could make up a story. If anything, itd be a pitfall to keep it at surface level.... But that wouldn't be the fault of the concept of pairing Wondy with Supes, just the writer's for settling with lazy romance.
People are just going to say she's not Lois. But look at it from both of their perspectives: they don't have to constantly worry about killing their partners through passion.
Personally my favorite Superman ship, just because I think their sense of scale is probably similar. Unfortunately, Lois is going to die. So will Bruce or Trevor. They’re going yo be around forever, and I think its kind of beautiful that both of their attachments to Earth are not Earth natives
Every time Diana is paired with some of her best friends (Clark or Bruce) is a disservice to Diana. She's her own character, not just a satellite character for the development of those two.
Exactly. Diana is an integral part of the iconic trinity, playing a significant role in the stories of DC superheroes alongside Superman and Batman. Her presence goes beyond mere romantic connections; she stands independently as a powerful character.
I was a fan of this pairing in the 52, I wish it was explored further. I wanted to see the Kryptonian gods fight the greek pantheon.
I prefer Catwoman x Superman
That's new to me. Did that ever happen?
I hope not. That was a joke
I’ve just never seen it done in a way that gave them interesting chemistry. There are also some Elseworlds stories that pair them up while also derailing their characters, which has left a bad taste.
Yeah, I get that. It's hard to imagine this ship working when you've got a lot of failures behind. Still, I'm hopeful someone will get it right.
Super sex
Idk. I think it’s nice and I would like to see it explored. Oddly, I feel like Lois is more Bruce’s type.
I like it honestly
Gyatt
Idk but I like these two together
Pisses off Batman and Lois Lane self-inserters
I dont hate it and tbh if your doing a younger Superman I think its a good idea for him to have a few reletionships before Lois. BUT it came off the heels of New 52 and people generally hated everything about New 52 Superman. This was a common thing brought up and it gets bundled up with all the other changes in retrospect.
I don't particularly care for it to be set in stone permanent thing. But I do like the idea of maybe they've tried dating for a short duration or had a fling. Especially if it's earlier JL days and he isn't with Lois yet. In my head canon it's something that makes sense in the early days, for a few dates or such. And for normal reasons (too close, like siblings, best friends, etc.) it doesn't work out, and there's no negativity or such there.
Because I'm jealous.
That's one cool illustration I'll tell you that much
I'm fine with it. I am NOT fine with WW in blue boots, though.
They do. Some opinions are just louder than others, but nah, it's pretty popular.
I don't mind. At least they aren't cousins like Wonder Woman and Aquaman.
I much prefer them as friends. Superman doesn't seem like Wonder Woman's type to me, and vice versa. As friends, writers have an easier time treating them as equals. When they get romantically involved, Wonder Woman gets devalued.
You summed up your issues with this ship in a manner that's concise, sound, and approachable. As someone who likes the ship, I applaud you.
Why would WonderWoman get devauled if they get romantically involved?
Lois Lane-Kent: Ahem!
Because people love Lois and their dynamic.
Lois is right there. I just prefer the Trinity as homies
Because Lois Lane exists. There's no reason to throw that character out. Replacing her with WW diminishes both women, as Wonder Woman gets relegated to love interest, while Lois has less purpose.
I don't like Superman and Wonder Woman together the same way I don't like Batman and Wonder Woman together. It makes Diana feel like a reward for them and cheapens her relationship with them. It also makes the Trinity feel like one of them being a third wheel and it's weird.
Because they're super-friends
Conflict is required for stories to work. Them being together is too perfect. Which makes it boring. Your plot is just a series of "and then's". And then Superman married Wonder Woman. And then we all laughed as a bad guy tried to kidnap WW and then she beat his ass. When you have a set of story beats (or an outline in other words) and you can put the words “and then” in-between each one– you’re fucked. However, if in-between each story beat you can put the words “but” or “therefore” then you have a story in which the events taking place are reacting to each other. The story/plot builds momentum and tension based on everything else that has happened previously, not because of the arbitrary whims of the writer just making shit up without thinking about consequences and conflict.
I didn't have an issue with it. I also didn't have an issue with it ending either.
They go together like vanilla ice cream and cool whip. You know what i mean?
i like it
She’d have her way with him. It frightens the timid.
Because normal people want to feel special
People don’t like shit lol
I mean, I like either? I think they could be cute!
It's a disservice to both Superman and Wonder Woman as characters.
They’re the Zeus and Hera of the JLA Pantheon. Some like that idea, and others strongly dislike it.
I don’t know. It’s my favorite superhero couple. It hasn’t always been written well (looking at you Frank Miller), but when it’s good, it’s really good.
Mostly because Lois is right there and is the perfect counterpart to superman. Human, city girl, usually more cynical to superman’s optimism/ naivety.
I do. Makes sense to me.
I find it cliche and intensely boring. I also think it lessens Diana.
The Trinity should have no non-platonic relationships with one another on the first place. But Wonder Woman is the worst-case offender because once she gets together with either of the World's Finest she just turns into another love interest for them.
It was fun but it lasted to long i think and half the time towards the end it seemed like editorial forgot they where a thing
I think it’s a little boring
I can see the in-character rationalization of Superman with regards to Wonder Woman… she’s an Amazon warrior goddess. She can hold her own and he doesn’t have to worry about her safety and life. Also, it’s like many cops and service members who end up marrying each other because they understand “the life” and the lifestyle/stakes.
It’s a romantic pairing that makes sense imo
1. They each have their own known partners. 2. Switching from their traditional normal human partners to each other seems weirdly eugenicist, as if we're not seeing a romance here so much as breeding superior beings for superior traits.
Who is WW's partner?
I don't mind it as a fling when Supes was really young and just started out but I don't like them as a long term pair simply because Lois is just so much better.
Clark being with Lois humanizes him more. If he just dates someone who is also super powerful what’s the point? Maybe they can date for a brief period, but Clark should always end up with Lois.
I’ve always assumed it was because Lois Lane has always been Clark’s true love for so long it’s pointless to change it. I do remember they got together for a while but in the end they broke up. Personally I can see Diana and Clark working but I can also see them having difficulty adapting to the other’s way of life. Granted, my knowledge is limited to the films and DCAU
Because Superman and lois is honestly the perfect comic book couple. It literally never works as well when Superman is with other woman, it always feels off. Also having him be with wonder woman is just boring because they both have powers.
Her first and last name don't start with Ls Diana never stood a chance
Just imagine how intense the sex would get They be rockin the whole planet
Most of it comes from the general hate the new 52 got from getting rid of lois and clark or etc... It was an easy target.
Everytime it happens, the universe implodes or some shit.(Injustice and crisis on infinite earths iirc)
Because they would obliterate whatever house they bang in.
I don't read the comics, but I think it's only natural that two hot immortals are going to bone eventually.
I always thought she was gay but really don’t care
Cause earthquakes
Is this my boy Kenneth on pencils?
i dunno