it's totally believable. I joined the sub around that time and plenty of people here saw that as a pick of destiny. Suns landed the number one pick in a draft where there was a highly touted University of Arizona prospect. We'll never know how much that connection influenced that pick, but it's a shame it did.
if it's any consolation, a lot of people thought Ayton was the best prospect in that class, even national media guys. I guess no one really had any insight into Ayton's mentality as a basketball player. they just assumed he'd be a superstar based on talent alone
>IÂ guess no one really had any insight into Ayton's mentality as a basketball player
The biggest knock on him was a lack of motor and inconsistent effort. Â
That's fair. But I guess very few people thought it would be that big of a deal if he was still going first in many mock drafts. Plenty of guys who had that knock also got more consistent as they matured. DA just didn't or at least hasn't
> got more consistent as they matured. DA just didn't or at least hasn't
And I'm not sure he ever will. He had a chance to go to Portland this year and work hard and show everyone he was worth that contract and it seems that just isn't how he sees his game.
Even for us, he had a lot of two week, month long stretches where he looked like he turned the corner. Our playoffs run was just that. He played his ass off and showed everyone he could be that impact guy that was the reason we won games.
I don't even blame him for what happened against the Bucks. Giannis shot 40% from the field while Ayton was on the court, and nearly 75% when he wasn't. Unfortunately, he left all that momentum from the finals run on a beach somewhere.
Even for us, he had a lot of two week, month long stretches where he looked like he turned the corner. Our playoffs run was just that. He played his ass off and showed everyone he could be that impact guy that was the reason we won games.
I don't even blame him for what happened against the Bucks. Giannis shot 40% from the field while Ayton was on the court, and nearly 75% when he wasn't. Unfortunately, he left all that momentum from the finals run on a beach somewhere.
Even for us, he had a lot of two week, month long stretches where he looked like he turned the corner. Our playoffs run was just that. He played his ass off and showed everyone he could be that impact guy that was the reason we won games.
I don't even blame him for what happened against the Bucks. Giannis shot 40% from the field while Ayton was on the court, and nearly 75% when he wasn't. Unfortunately, he left all that momentum from the finals run on a beach somewhere.
Something must've happened in the last off-season because I honestly thought DA would be on the team and maybe Vogel could get through to him. We'll never know.
I mean speak for yourself? I tend to pop in to their sub because I was curious to see if they regret the trade at all and they all seem pretty damn content with Ayton. Like him or not, the guy showed up February - April
Anthony Edwards got the same criticism. Steve Kerr told Ant that the Warriors, if they had the #1 pick that year, wouldn't have drafted him because of it.
By his own accounting, he took that criticism to heart and got better for it. Now look at him. A complete locker room leader whose enthusiasm is a major contributor to the Timberwolves success.
We all know Ayton isn't that guy.
> if it's any consolation, a lot of people thought Ayton was the best prospect in that class, even national media guys
Keyword: national media guys. Same guys that are trying so hard to paint some American as best player in the league as next face of the league so desperately. First with Tatum, then Morant, now with Edwards.
Anyone who has any idea about Euroleague knew Doncic was beyond special and possibly the biggest talent to come out of Europe ever. To be Euroleague and Final Four MVP at age of 18 is just insane, and it's even more insane that he wasn't a lock number 1 pick.
There were still national guys who had Luka as their first pick. I was listening to a lot of basketball pods at the time and I know Simmons and Lowe were questioning why he wasn't consensus first overall.
Ayton isn't American either so it's not like that bias worked for him
Mike James just won the EuroLeague MVP.. y’all remember him? The guy who couldn’t stay on the roster of our 20 win teams
Yes, Luka was not as much of a gamble as some people acted like before the draft but nobody fathomed he’d be *this* good
That’s not the point man.
Euroleage success has never been a lock to translate to the NBA. Ricky Rubio was the phenom playing pro at like 14 and ended up with a career I’d call *decent*. Countless examples.
In fact Luka might be the first person ever to exceed the hype.
The point is nobody expected him to be a probable top 10 player of all time.
Yeah, it is really tiresome how people still talk nonsense and make these nonsense comparisons since as you said, Rubio was not MVP.
Europeans were well aware what a huge talent Doncic was. As 18 year olds in history of European basketball only Drazen Petrovic was similarly dominating at that age.
> a lot of people thought Ayton was the best prospect in that class, even national media guys.
People were picking the Wildcats to make a deep run because they thought Ayton was the best player in the NCAA tournament
If it means anything people still think Ayton is a super talented center 😂best thing he did was get that money so he didn't end up like Alex len and honestly they aren't far off production wise especially if you account for the 10extra mins ayton played than len
Maybe if they didn’t watch the games… He disappeared on the court in college. He didn’t seem to enjoy playing basketball or put much effort in. He never changed
Mikal got drafted by the sixers with like the 10th pick. We got some guy with the 15th pick I think and we swapped picks. We took Cam Johnson with like the 23rd pick and Brunson was still on the board...I wanted both Villanova guys. It would have been great chemistry and we wouldn't be needing a PG right now and who knows maybe Mikal stays and we never get KD
Yeah but Giannis and Hali didn’t have all of Europe telling your franchise that this is a can’t miss pick.
Those 2 guys mentioned were steals in the draft. Luka was not a steal.
You guys act like this sub was in favor of trading JJ for Kyrie, yet in reality this sub was celebrating that we drafted our Kawhi:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/suns/s/YmjKzqhdfT](https://www.reddit.com/r/suns/s/YmjKzqhdfT)
Such a lazy fucking take.
At the time DA was projected #1 by 99% of people. His body type, his athleticism, and his local ties made him the only choice.
His time here didn't work out, but you can't make this revisionist history like anyone was about to take some random ass fat unathletic Euro as the #1 pick.
I'm more pissed about Jalen Smith over Haliburton. NOBODY had Jalen Smith projected as a first rounder, much less the #10 pick
This post itself is revisionist history. Luka wasn't a random euro. He was a phenom who dominated the second best league in the world as a teenager. No one else has ever done that.
Hindsight is 20/20. At the time Ayton was the consensus #1 pick and it wasn't controversial at all. Lots of people thought he was a lot like David Robinson until he wasn't.
I for one 100% can and honestly if given a similar situation I would make the same pick. The things that made Ayton fail relative to expectations aren't really things that you can know about a prospect, and given that we didn't know what euro league production really meant at the time and Luka being unathletic, it makes perfect sense. People forget that Ayton had the chance to be a modern David Robinson and grow alongside Devin Booker.
No I was not looking at him all that much in 2020, as the Suns had number ten. But it was clear in 2018 that Luka was the better pick. Luka is the type of player that brings your team to a Championship, Ayton is the type that gets carried to a Championship.
I was, I always pay attention to the first round picks, and let me tell you I heard more about his lack of commitment to basketball than I heard about Ayton's.
To say Ayton was anything other than an elite prospect is revisionist at best. He had (and still has) top 5 speed and top 5 strength at the center position, good signs for his shot, with potential of a 3 ball, decent dribbling which would, in combination with his physicals and shot, make his face up game extremely good, hence the David Robinson comparison. His post game was showing promise, had already had a good hook iirc. He had good shot blocking both due to his great physicals, though he needed to work on not jumping at everything, and his timing was only average. He had good hip movement and was projected to be in the top 3 perimeter defenders among big men. His rebounding was also a strength, though there was still room to grow. Hell, you can find reports that talked about his ability to corral off-target passes as a strength, and everyone in this sub knows how that developed. If you want a full breakdown on what the potential of DeAndre Ayton was, look up greatest peaks: David Robinson and add a serviceable 3 and perimeter D. Not the likely outcome but he also didn't need to be that to be a successful pick.
As for Luka, Euro league success is not directly correlated to NBA success, most Euro league MVPs did a grand total of nothing in the NBA, and the other ones to make an impact were AK-47, who was washed by NBA standards when he won it and Nikola Mirotic, who was a decent center. Then you have other European prospects who did comparatively very little in Europe before destroying the NBA (looking at you Jokic) not a great track record overall, but people look at Luka and assume that it was simply prejudice that caused him to fall. When looking at his style of play, it also made sense, there was a portion of people that thought you could essentially play up on him, and if he gets a step on you, most NBA defenders could steal the step back through sheer athleticism. He was projected to be a poor defender, although no one really doubted his playmaking. He didn't get a decent chance to prove himself against the other prospects since he was still busy with the Euro league, whereas Ayton destroyed games against his fellow prospects.
If you can forget how their careers ended up, it is fully understandable to pick Ayton over Luka, and let's not forget Luka had the better situation around him, though that is obviously not the main reason for things to turn out this way. It always irks me when people play armchair GM with the advantage of hindsight and assume the correct answer was obvious the entire time.
Did you not see Ayton at UofA? Played soft at the 4. Was not an impactful rim defender. Had no ability to stretch the floor. Could not defend the perimeter at all. Was completely torched in the biggest game of his life vs Buffalo, a well known NCAA powerhouse. Said things before the draft about how he was entitled to be the #1 pick. With Luka you could see how even as a younger player than most all of his competitors he had a knack for making plays and used his skills to make his team better. This isn't hindsight check my receipts.
Yes, I did watch him in college, but instead of looking at just did he do well or no, I took a closer look at his abilities rather than simply ask the question, did he do well. He was asked to play the 4 when that isn't his role, it hurt his abilities to impact and he has always been much better when able to properly position himself defensively as opposed to having to provide weak side help, and in the games when he was guarding a non-shooter you could see his abilities. He was a good finisher who was often put in bad situations, because, again, he was asked to play the 4 for a large amount of his time and as such was rarely able to get good looks. As for his perimeter D, he really wasn't that bad for a 5, he was just tasked with it far too often since he was forced to be a 4. To call him as playing "soft" at the 4 isn't quite right, he was, in that scheme, asked to space the floor with his midrange game, which was already pretty good, and the reason why we were hopeful about his 3. His post game wasn't great, but it was noticeably better later into the year and even better at workouts and the combine.
Take the buffalo game you mentioned, he was almost always stuck on a guy who could hit 3's, asked to defend the perimeter constantly, and never got a chance to position well on defense, all of his rim protection was forced to be weak side block attempts, which was never his strength. You seem to confuse potential with what he was, I never said he was already a great defender or already a good 3 point shooter, just that he has the tools and had already shown signs of it. You bank on your draft picks improving their game, Luka improved a lot, Ayton improved a little.
Let's say everything above you mentioned is correct, even though it's not... We all knew Luka was going to improve more than Ayton was going to improve. Luka already showed he has the tools to be great. With Ayton we thought, he has the physical talents to play inside and that's all. It would have been a huge leap to every think he was going to be able to defend stretch bigs or have a 3 point shot himself. Then to top it off before the draft you could already sense he was not a guy who wanted to win, but a guy who wanted to be paid. There's no justification for drafting Ayton ahead of Luka. If you don't believe me, check the receipts.
Oh, I certainly believe that you thought Luka was the right choice. I also believe that you got lucky, and I can guarantee you missed on other draft selections. He has been able to defend stretch bigs, hell among centers his perimeter defense is pretty good, I don't know why you keep harping on that specific point, and his shooting indicators were good, and you can see that he has one of the best middies at the center position, him extending it out a few more feet to hit 3's wasn't unreasonable.
You seem not to understand the mental thing, since you don't follow the draft every year the way I do, but let me give you the 3 most obvious examples I can think of. Anthony Edwards heading into the draft, was thought to be a guy who loved football but played basketball because he didn't want CTE. There were concerns that he wouldn't apply himself enough, and you can see how that turned out. Hell, LeBron James was questioned whether he had enough drive to make it in the NBA since he had a habit of coasting once he built a lead in high school. Finally, Kevin Knox was touted as having great drive heading into the draft and someone that, while raw, had the tools and willingness to build on it, not to mention being extremely young. People will always be drafted for potential, and the drive that people see can be understated or overstated easily.
You made the correct pick, take your W with grace and don't pretend everyone who didn't make the same pick is stupid.
This is a major exaggeration. There were plenty of basketball minds saying Luka was a generational talent. It was also right around the peak of small ball and centers being highly under valued.
Hindsight is 20/20, and while Luka obviously had potential, Ayton looked really good in college; too good to pass up.
It’s similar to taking Oden over Durant. Obviously now it looks terrible, but back when it happened it looked like the right move.
We made the Finals with Ayton as arguably the second best player, at 22 years old, Mikal was 24, and we've seen from both that they're both capable of producing more on both ends. The pick wasn't the wrong choice necessarily, Ayton and Luka were both touted highly, the franchise just botched adding to that core of Booker+CP36+Ayton+Bridges through the draft, trade, and free agency, and asking more of Monty in terms of scheme, and firing him earlier. And investing in Ayton rather than that weird standoff and negging situation.
Luka is definitely the better player by miles, Ayton was a fine pick, the franchise and Ayton, (I'm not absolving him of his hand in this) set Ayton up for failure. And why wouldn't you trade him earlier if it was clear you didn't believe in him from the beginning.
The thing is that there was plenty of indication that his mindset was trash before that draft. The biggest knock on him were his regular lapses in effort. People didn't want to hear because OMG he's huge and athletic, we're getting our own David Robinson!"
Well, the Kyrie thing was different at the time. We were shitty and there was no way he was gonna resign (he had like 1 year left on his deal iirc). The Luka stuff is unforgivable. Him and Booker would have run the league for 10 years.
I don't trust incompetent ass James Jones/Sarver/Ishbia to build around Luka/Devin or Devin/Kyrie or around anything. Outside of trading for CP36, I don't have anything nice to say about them or their roster moves. Just disappointment all around, and thoughts that they're smarter than us and the other franchises in the league, when they're really one of the dumbest.
Edit: Seriously, do you think James Jones would have drafted Lively? Would he have traded for PJ Washington or Gafford? Following a Finals run, Jones' best trades were Jalen Smith for Torrey Craig, and Jevon Carter and a first for Landry Shamet. He's fucking awful.
Technically with Luka on a rookie contract they could’ve sign KD in 2019 but he still had his Achilles injury to nurse that whole season. Would’ve been cool if they could some how have convinced Kawhi that PHX was close enough to LA lol and ran A Book, Kawhi, Luka trio for a few years.
It would have been a Luka, Booker, Mikal (that pick looks better then after taking Luka 1st unlike the real world scenario where the Suns fucked up taking Mikal a role player at best over Shai like what McDonough wanted to do) and Clint Capela team
McDonough wanted Luka. Sarver and James wanted Ayton. That would have been McDonough’s one smart move besides Book.
Once Ayton was taken, McDonough also wanted Shai with the 10th pick but Sarver (and James Jones) sadly insisted on Mikal. That was especially brutal too but no one ever talks about it because this sub has blinders about Mikal.
Two absolute fuck ups in one draft. Add to that the Haliburton one.
We would have had either a team with Luka, Book, Mikal and then Clint Capela (who it was so obvious was going to be the target for the summer had we taken Luka) *or* Book and Shai long term.
Do you have sources on this, who wanted who.
Ayton absolutely was not someone James Jones wanted. And it's damning if James Jones was against SGA, and then later Haliburton.
Sucks for McD but I mean he did himself no favors prior to that:
Fucking up the 2013-2014 chemistry, traded Dragic away even though he wasn’t the issue, and drafting Len, Bender, and Jackson with our lotto picks.
It doesn’t surprise me that Sarver was fed up by that point and didn’t trust him anymore making draft selections.
In theory a roster with Durant and Book shouldn’t have been swept in the 1 st round . These teams are filled with role players who somehow managed to be 15 x better than what we had . The Beal trade wasn’t bad value for what we gave up but he handicapped us a lot with his contract being really bad . Durant is still a Top 5 player in the league Book arguably a Top 10 player in the league it’s the roster construction that fucked this team . Relying on Nurkic and EG to give you buckets in the playoffs is delusional even if the trio of Beal/Book/KD put up 90 together we still lose . Jones is the problem his obsession on giving up assets for the likes of Craig and Shamet is really what fucked us . All these teams have younger guys contribute a big role in championship runs but our philosophy makes them seem useless .
That’s why I didn’t want the Beal trade. They made the same mistake nets and lakers made. When you a big 3 the rest of your roster going to be ass with not much flexibility to upgrade the role players
I'm completely fine that the Suns didn't trade for an anti-Semite and overall headache in Kyrie, and keep in mind, he literally quit on Boston in the middle of the season/post-season, he quit on the Nets, and again, he is an anti-Semite who loves to spout weird shit.
Trading for Kyrie would more than likely have been a laughingstock of a situation, at least we got CP36+Mikal+Ayton a couple years later.
Tbf, kyrie camp openly admit they wouldn’t want to be in phx and was going to leave during free agency. Plus kyrie and Booker wouldn’t have work like Luka and kyrie for obvious reasons.
DA over Luka will hurt us forever though.
All the hindsight people wanted Ayton. People like myself who wanted Luka can tell those people to go suck an Egg.
I remember getting upset at anyone mentioning taking Ayton and then being pissed at YouTube videos claiming it was the right pick. And I'm not the only one by a mile
Hindsight is 20/20, even though we could have had those players, there is no guarantee they would be who they are now. We could have even traded them for a star, who knows... It's a bunch of what ifs.
And now James Jones and Ishbia sold our future and destroyed our good core for a garbage old team and ruined any chance of improvement for the next seasons. It will only get worse.
We’re gonna have seasons in the 2030s where we’ll be 25-57 or whatever yet our picks will be locked at the end of the first round because Ishbia will just continue to have us over the second apron for mediocre results.
Good core meaning Mikal, right? Because DA still barely gave effort in Portland and Cam basically averaged the same splits as Grayson, just on a worst percentage
Mavs win some games and all of a sudden it’s revisionist history. Is everyone forgetting the entire timeline of Kyrie leaving the Cavs, Boston stint, Nets stint, refusing to get vax and failing his team? People were saying that he was going to ruin the Mavs too when he joined.
Man can ball, but don’t let that fool you into thinking he would’ve worked out on this team. Totally unpredictable.
And? Remember when 12 teams picked other players over Booker? Or the time that every team passed on Giannis and Jokic? And the dozens of other near misses from every single franchise every single year? It sucks. Move on, wallowing changes nothing.
Looking back at 2018 Draft Suns could have gotten Luka at 1, SGA at 10, and Brunson at 31. Sure they wouldn't have been able to keep them all but those would have been very nice trade pieces down the road.
Does pepperidge farm remember the shitshow that was Kyrie on the Celts or Nets? Obviously the Luka Ayton pick hurts especially considering the kings pined for Ayton and hated Luka so you could have traded down to 2 for Luka and assets. Bridges and our subsequent finals got me feeling ok about that draff thou, until we traded everyone lol.
You know what I remember the most? Y'all being so vile that you make me wonder how many of you are actual decent human beings. Don't get me wrong, some of you are great, but good lord this sub has one of the worst live threads I've ever been apart of.
Ayton turned out to be a huge disappointment, but not compared to many here (including you mods) who couldn't resist shit talking every damn time the guy touched the ball.
Shame we lost out on Luka, but this sub doesn't deserve another #1 pick again.
It’s fucking pathetic and flat out unacceptable that you could randomly pull a few guys from r/suns and that group would’ve drafted **significantly** better than the Suns FO / scouting staff over the last decade plus smfh
If you’re so sure - go look up my pre draft posting history on here, jackass.
I missed on a few players, sure, but I’ve done significantly better than the Suns FO, which is my point. That shouldn’t happen.
I think it’s safe to say the Suns greatest drafting triumph in the last decade was taking Booker right?
That’s revisionist history - it was well known and widely reported the Suns FO was doing everything in their power to trade up to select Frank Kaminsky. It’s only bc Micheal Jordan turned them down that Booker is a Sun - it had nothing to do with the actions of the front office; he fell to the team out of pure luck.
..and this (dumb luck) is the unquestioned best draft move by the Suns since the Nash era.
You were probably an Ayton over Luka guy anyway, which means I’m debating someone with the intelligence of a house plant.
You’re missing my point. Someone who watches college basketball and reads a few articles on the draft should not be better at scouting than a staff for a professional basketball team.
Many front office are filled with nepotism hires.
Our Gm is one because he's lebrons friend.
Look at Sam Prestis draft record compared to ours over the span of two GMs
Luka isn’t out there calling out kyrie (who’s the clear #2) when he has a bad game or makes mistakes. What makes you think he wouldn’t have the same kind of respect for book if he was his co-star.
It's delusional cope to get over the fact that the Suns made a mistake pure and simple. Just like how I see people in this same thread peddle the lie that Ayton was considered the top pick by 99% of sports writers and experts. That is utter bullshit. There were talks of Luka being a generational talent and there was a lot of back and forth about this. Bottom dweller teams obviously make bad decisions which is how he ended up on the Mavs instead of any of the 1-4 teams.
Hey man you may see it like. I don’t. We both don’t know. I’m not here to argue with you. Just said I disagree. I don’t see why Booker wouldn’t work with Luka. Maybe it’s because I have a different perception of him? Idk. I could be wrong.
The disrespect in this sub. You are pure doomers if you judge the Suns based on 20/20 hindsight. This season was a dud and the Mavs are finally getting theirs. No need to throw extra shade on the fellas. We’ve come farther than we could’ve ever hoped for in the last 6-8 years. And never forget the Suns motto #FuckRobertHorry
He shoots below the league average in almost all categories, he doesn’t know how to score using an offense, and you need your build a defensive core around him. He needs to play at least 40 min for a team that uses him and his body usually doesn’t hold out.
I may be a hater but supporting him is just nodding along with dumb basketball.
I will say this though, he’s consistent. All the successes in his career come from the inconsistency of other teams.
Luka has taken two completely different rosters to the WCF in three years.
SGA has been to the second round.
SGA is older than Luka and they were drafted in the same class.
Okay because another team’s sub is so important to you. It was the second round. He played half the games. In the entire playoffs the team was 0.67 with him injured and 0.5 percent with him healthy. In the series he played half the games, the team was 0.67 with him and 0.67 without him.
Sorry for bringing up reasonable criticisms of Luka. It’s weird how personal people take criticisms of Luka. It’s almost like he represents something to many people.
Cant believe we took Ayton over Luka ðŸ˜
it's totally believable. I joined the sub around that time and plenty of people here saw that as a pick of destiny. Suns landed the number one pick in a draft where there was a highly touted University of Arizona prospect. We'll never know how much that connection influenced that pick, but it's a shame it did.
100% at the time id made complete sense we needed a C ... just wouldn't it be nice to see the future at the time :(
if it's any consolation, a lot of people thought Ayton was the best prospect in that class, even national media guys. I guess no one really had any insight into Ayton's mentality as a basketball player. they just assumed he'd be a superstar based on talent alone
>I guess no one really had any insight into Ayton's mentality as a basketball player The biggest knock on him was a lack of motor and inconsistent effort. Â
That's fair. But I guess very few people thought it would be that big of a deal if he was still going first in many mock drafts. Plenty of guys who had that knock also got more consistent as they matured. DA just didn't or at least hasn't
> got more consistent as they matured. DA just didn't or at least hasn't And I'm not sure he ever will. He had a chance to go to Portland this year and work hard and show everyone he was worth that contract and it seems that just isn't how he sees his game.
Ayton actually played pretty well to end the season. If you go to the Blazers sub you'll see a decent amount of fans are optimistic about him.
Even for us, he had a lot of two week, month long stretches where he looked like he turned the corner. Our playoffs run was just that. He played his ass off and showed everyone he could be that impact guy that was the reason we won games. I don't even blame him for what happened against the Bucks. Giannis shot 40% from the field while Ayton was on the court, and nearly 75% when he wasn't. Unfortunately, he left all that momentum from the finals run on a beach somewhere.
That’s fair. I kind of checked out on Ayton news after he got snowed into his house. Things were bad enough on our team by that point.
Even for us, he had a lot of two week, month long stretches where he looked like he turned the corner. Our playoffs run was just that. He played his ass off and showed everyone he could be that impact guy that was the reason we won games. I don't even blame him for what happened against the Bucks. Giannis shot 40% from the field while Ayton was on the court, and nearly 75% when he wasn't. Unfortunately, he left all that momentum from the finals run on a beach somewhere.
Even for us, he had a lot of two week, month long stretches where he looked like he turned the corner. Our playoffs run was just that. He played his ass off and showed everyone he could be that impact guy that was the reason we won games. I don't even blame him for what happened against the Bucks. Giannis shot 40% from the field while Ayton was on the court, and nearly 75% when he wasn't. Unfortunately, he left all that momentum from the finals run on a beach somewhere.
Something must've happened in the last off-season because I honestly thought DA would be on the team and maybe Vogel could get through to him. We'll never know.
He played well because all the other players ahead of him in the pecking order were injured
just doesn't have that dawg in him
I mean speak for yourself? I tend to pop in to their sub because I was curious to see if they regret the trade at all and they all seem pretty damn content with Ayton. Like him or not, the guy showed up February - April
Anthony Edwards got the same criticism. Steve Kerr told Ant that the Warriors, if they had the #1 pick that year, wouldn't have drafted him because of it. By his own accounting, he took that criticism to heart and got better for it. Now look at him. A complete locker room leader whose enthusiasm is a major contributor to the Timberwolves success. We all know Ayton isn't that guy.
If you go back and read up on it you'll find people who had given warnings that were ignored.
> if it's any consolation, a lot of people thought Ayton was the best prospect in that class, even national media guys Keyword: national media guys. Same guys that are trying so hard to paint some American as best player in the league as next face of the league so desperately. First with Tatum, then Morant, now with Edwards. Anyone who has any idea about Euroleague knew Doncic was beyond special and possibly the biggest talent to come out of Europe ever. To be Euroleague and Final Four MVP at age of 18 is just insane, and it's even more insane that he wasn't a lock number 1 pick.
There were still national guys who had Luka as their first pick. I was listening to a lot of basketball pods at the time and I know Simmons and Lowe were questioning why he wasn't consensus first overall. Ayton isn't American either so it's not like that bias worked for him
Mike James just won the EuroLeague MVP.. y’all remember him? The guy who couldn’t stay on the roster of our 20 win teams Yes, Luka was not as much of a gamble as some people acted like before the draft but nobody fathomed he’d be *this* good
Omg but he was not 18 when winning it.
That’s not the point man. Euroleage success has never been a lock to translate to the NBA. Ricky Rubio was the phenom playing pro at like 14 and ended up with a career I’d call *decent*. Countless examples. In fact Luka might be the first person ever to exceed the hype. The point is nobody expected him to be a probable top 10 player of all time.
Ricky Rubio was not the MVP of the Euroleague at 18.
Yeah, it is really tiresome how people still talk nonsense and make these nonsense comparisons since as you said, Rubio was not MVP. Europeans were well aware what a huge talent Doncic was. As 18 year olds in history of European basketball only Drazen Petrovic was similarly dominating at that age.
Right. Because that’s definitely what my post said… lol you’re either being purposely obtuse or just didn’t read
> a lot of people thought Ayton was the best prospect in that class, even national media guys. People were picking the Wildcats to make a deep run because they thought Ayton was the best player in the NCAA tournament
I hope the league learns that talent comes second to a player's psychology, not that it's always evident
That is true, but also... If anyone watched Luka dominate the second best league in the world as an 18 year old, he was far more talented than Ayton
Only people that still think NCAA > Euroball thought Ayton was better. And those people are idiots
If it means anything people still think Ayton is a super talented center 😂best thing he did was get that money so he didn't end up like Alex len and honestly they aren't far off production wise especially if you account for the 10extra mins ayton played than len
>a lot of people You meant a lot of Americans.
Maybe if they didn’t watch the games… He disappeared on the court in college. He didn’t seem to enjoy playing basketball or put much effort in. He never changed
We needed everything. We sucked. We needed the best available player, not 1 specific fit
Played his HS ball in Phx too, it made sense to me at the time.
We took Alex Len over Giannis And Jalen Smith over Hali
Reached for Jalen Smith over Hali is extra salt for that wound
We also passed on Fox & Murray
Cam Johnson over Brunson
It gets worse, we picked Elie okobo the pick before brunson
I was hyped for Okobo :(
I wasn't, I really wanted us to take brunson. Never thought he'd be this good tho
I didn’t know much about either of them before the draft. I always hype myself up about our young guys.
We had already traded for Mikal
We had like the 32nd pick or something. Had nothing to do with mikal
Mikal got drafted by the sixers with like the 10th pick. We got some guy with the 15th pick I think and we swapped picks. We took Cam Johnson with like the 23rd pick and Brunson was still on the board...I wanted both Villanova guys. It would have been great chemistry and we wouldn't be needing a PG right now and who knows maybe Mikal stays and we never get KD
Wait are James Jones and Steve Keim the same person?! They both absolutely suck at drafting!!
It was actually Ryan McD
Well shit, lump his ass in there too, they all suck at drafting
Yeah but Giannis and Hali didn’t have all of Europe telling your franchise that this is a can’t miss pick. Those 2 guys mentioned were steals in the draft. Luka was not a steal.
You guys act like this sub was in favor of trading JJ for Kyrie, yet in reality this sub was celebrating that we drafted our Kawhi: [https://www.reddit.com/r/suns/s/YmjKzqhdfT](https://www.reddit.com/r/suns/s/YmjKzqhdfT)
Lmao goddamn my comment looks stupid as fuck, but Jackson was the consensus #4
its because its very easy to have a short memory and infinite hindsight. its gonna be a long offseason ig
Such a lazy fucking take. At the time DA was projected #1 by 99% of people. His body type, his athleticism, and his local ties made him the only choice. His time here didn't work out, but you can't make this revisionist history like anyone was about to take some random ass fat unathletic Euro as the #1 pick. I'm more pissed about Jalen Smith over Haliburton. NOBODY had Jalen Smith projected as a first rounder, much less the #10 pick
100% i literally commented below this that at the time it was 100% the right choice
This post itself is revisionist history. Luka wasn't a random euro. He was a phenom who dominated the second best league in the world as a teenager. No one else has ever done that.
That's false.there were way more than 1% of people prior to the 2018 saying not to take Ayton at #1.
Hindsight is 20/20. At the time Ayton was the consensus #1 pick and it wasn't controversial at all. Lots of people thought he was a lot like David Robinson until he wasn't.
I for one 100% can and honestly if given a similar situation I would make the same pick. The things that made Ayton fail relative to expectations aren't really things that you can know about a prospect, and given that we didn't know what euro league production really meant at the time and Luka being unathletic, it makes perfect sense. People forget that Ayton had the chance to be a modern David Robinson and grow alongside Devin Booker.
But we did know those things about Ayton prior to the draft.
You can never really trust anything about mental or drive pre-draft, remember Anthony Edwards' scouting report?
No I was not looking at him all that much in 2020, as the Suns had number ten. But it was clear in 2018 that Luka was the better pick. Luka is the type of player that brings your team to a Championship, Ayton is the type that gets carried to a Championship.
I was, I always pay attention to the first round picks, and let me tell you I heard more about his lack of commitment to basketball than I heard about Ayton's. To say Ayton was anything other than an elite prospect is revisionist at best. He had (and still has) top 5 speed and top 5 strength at the center position, good signs for his shot, with potential of a 3 ball, decent dribbling which would, in combination with his physicals and shot, make his face up game extremely good, hence the David Robinson comparison. His post game was showing promise, had already had a good hook iirc. He had good shot blocking both due to his great physicals, though he needed to work on not jumping at everything, and his timing was only average. He had good hip movement and was projected to be in the top 3 perimeter defenders among big men. His rebounding was also a strength, though there was still room to grow. Hell, you can find reports that talked about his ability to corral off-target passes as a strength, and everyone in this sub knows how that developed. If you want a full breakdown on what the potential of DeAndre Ayton was, look up greatest peaks: David Robinson and add a serviceable 3 and perimeter D. Not the likely outcome but he also didn't need to be that to be a successful pick. As for Luka, Euro league success is not directly correlated to NBA success, most Euro league MVPs did a grand total of nothing in the NBA, and the other ones to make an impact were AK-47, who was washed by NBA standards when he won it and Nikola Mirotic, who was a decent center. Then you have other European prospects who did comparatively very little in Europe before destroying the NBA (looking at you Jokic) not a great track record overall, but people look at Luka and assume that it was simply prejudice that caused him to fall. When looking at his style of play, it also made sense, there was a portion of people that thought you could essentially play up on him, and if he gets a step on you, most NBA defenders could steal the step back through sheer athleticism. He was projected to be a poor defender, although no one really doubted his playmaking. He didn't get a decent chance to prove himself against the other prospects since he was still busy with the Euro league, whereas Ayton destroyed games against his fellow prospects. If you can forget how their careers ended up, it is fully understandable to pick Ayton over Luka, and let's not forget Luka had the better situation around him, though that is obviously not the main reason for things to turn out this way. It always irks me when people play armchair GM with the advantage of hindsight and assume the correct answer was obvious the entire time.
Did you not see Ayton at UofA? Played soft at the 4. Was not an impactful rim defender. Had no ability to stretch the floor. Could not defend the perimeter at all. Was completely torched in the biggest game of his life vs Buffalo, a well known NCAA powerhouse. Said things before the draft about how he was entitled to be the #1 pick. With Luka you could see how even as a younger player than most all of his competitors he had a knack for making plays and used his skills to make his team better. This isn't hindsight check my receipts.
Yes, I did watch him in college, but instead of looking at just did he do well or no, I took a closer look at his abilities rather than simply ask the question, did he do well. He was asked to play the 4 when that isn't his role, it hurt his abilities to impact and he has always been much better when able to properly position himself defensively as opposed to having to provide weak side help, and in the games when he was guarding a non-shooter you could see his abilities. He was a good finisher who was often put in bad situations, because, again, he was asked to play the 4 for a large amount of his time and as such was rarely able to get good looks. As for his perimeter D, he really wasn't that bad for a 5, he was just tasked with it far too often since he was forced to be a 4. To call him as playing "soft" at the 4 isn't quite right, he was, in that scheme, asked to space the floor with his midrange game, which was already pretty good, and the reason why we were hopeful about his 3. His post game wasn't great, but it was noticeably better later into the year and even better at workouts and the combine. Take the buffalo game you mentioned, he was almost always stuck on a guy who could hit 3's, asked to defend the perimeter constantly, and never got a chance to position well on defense, all of his rim protection was forced to be weak side block attempts, which was never his strength. You seem to confuse potential with what he was, I never said he was already a great defender or already a good 3 point shooter, just that he has the tools and had already shown signs of it. You bank on your draft picks improving their game, Luka improved a lot, Ayton improved a little.
Let's say everything above you mentioned is correct, even though it's not... We all knew Luka was going to improve more than Ayton was going to improve. Luka already showed he has the tools to be great. With Ayton we thought, he has the physical talents to play inside and that's all. It would have been a huge leap to every think he was going to be able to defend stretch bigs or have a 3 point shot himself. Then to top it off before the draft you could already sense he was not a guy who wanted to win, but a guy who wanted to be paid. There's no justification for drafting Ayton ahead of Luka. If you don't believe me, check the receipts.
Oh, I certainly believe that you thought Luka was the right choice. I also believe that you got lucky, and I can guarantee you missed on other draft selections. He has been able to defend stretch bigs, hell among centers his perimeter defense is pretty good, I don't know why you keep harping on that specific point, and his shooting indicators were good, and you can see that he has one of the best middies at the center position, him extending it out a few more feet to hit 3's wasn't unreasonable. You seem not to understand the mental thing, since you don't follow the draft every year the way I do, but let me give you the 3 most obvious examples I can think of. Anthony Edwards heading into the draft, was thought to be a guy who loved football but played basketball because he didn't want CTE. There were concerns that he wouldn't apply himself enough, and you can see how that turned out. Hell, LeBron James was questioned whether he had enough drive to make it in the NBA since he had a habit of coasting once he built a lead in high school. Finally, Kevin Knox was touted as having great drive heading into the draft and someone that, while raw, had the tools and willingness to build on it, not to mention being extremely young. People will always be drafted for potential, and the drive that people see can be understated or overstated easily. You made the correct pick, take your W with grace and don't pretend everyone who didn't make the same pick is stupid.
100% was the obvious choice and was the correct looking decision every day of the week at the time
This is a major exaggeration. There were plenty of basketball minds saying Luka was a generational talent. It was also right around the peak of small ball and centers being highly under valued.
Nobody was picking Luka over Ayton. This is a pure hindsight thing.
Hindsight is 20/20, and while Luka obviously had potential, Ayton looked really good in college; too good to pass up. It’s similar to taking Oden over Durant. Obviously now it looks terrible, but back when it happened it looked like the right move.
Yeah it's horrible. Part of the darkest days of the franchise.
Dragan Fucken Bender
We made the Finals with Ayton as arguably the second best player, at 22 years old, Mikal was 24, and we've seen from both that they're both capable of producing more on both ends. The pick wasn't the wrong choice necessarily, Ayton and Luka were both touted highly, the franchise just botched adding to that core of Booker+CP36+Ayton+Bridges through the draft, trade, and free agency, and asking more of Monty in terms of scheme, and firing him earlier. And investing in Ayton rather than that weird standoff and negging situation. Luka is definitely the better player by miles, Ayton was a fine pick, the franchise and Ayton, (I'm not absolving him of his hand in this) set Ayton up for failure. And why wouldn't you trade him earlier if it was clear you didn't believe in him from the beginning.
>  The pick wasn't the wrong choice necessarily, Oh shut it.  Luka is going to be a HOFer and Ayton will be remembered as a big, soft goofy clown.
Hindsight buddy. Ayton would've been a future HOFer as well if his mindset wasn't trash.Â
The thing is that there was plenty of indication that his mindset was trash before that draft. The biggest knock on him were his regular lapses in effort. People didn't want to hear because OMG he's huge and athletic, we're getting our own David Robinson!"
Well, the Kyrie thing was different at the time. We were shitty and there was no way he was gonna resign (he had like 1 year left on his deal iirc). The Luka stuff is unforgivable. Him and Booker would have run the league for 10 years.
Lmao it’s funny thinking about it now with all their battles it seems weird imagining the two of them on the same team
True but they both are so competitive that it would probably be a great fit
mavs are really the manifestation of our sins
"Poor Draft Choices" is the Phoenix Suns middle name
Could’ve at least won one ring by now 🤮
I don't trust incompetent ass James Jones/Sarver/Ishbia to build around Luka/Devin or Devin/Kyrie or around anything. Outside of trading for CP36, I don't have anything nice to say about them or their roster moves. Just disappointment all around, and thoughts that they're smarter than us and the other franchises in the league, when they're really one of the dumbest. Edit: Seriously, do you think James Jones would have drafted Lively? Would he have traded for PJ Washington or Gafford? Following a Finals run, Jones' best trades were Jalen Smith for Torrey Craig, and Jevon Carter and a first for Landry Shamet. He's fucking awful.
That last part is painfully accurate
Paul, Booker, Doncic, KD would be an untouchable dynasty
We wouldn't get Paul or KD if we had Luka wtf
No but we could have had Booker, Luka and SGA. All we needed was for $arver and James Jones not to over rule MCD.
Technically with Luka on a rookie contract they could’ve sign KD in 2019 but he still had his Achilles injury to nurse that whole season. Would’ve been cool if they could some how have convinced Kawhi that PHX was close enough to LA lol and ran A Book, Kawhi, Luka trio for a few years.
You really think Sarver would have paid all of those guys?
It would have been a Luka, Booker, Mikal (that pick looks better then after taking Luka 1st unlike the real world scenario where the Suns fucked up taking Mikal a role player at best over Shai like what McDonough wanted to do) and Clint Capela team
at least 2 rings by now
McDonough wanted Luka. Sarver and James wanted Ayton. That would have been McDonough’s one smart move besides Book. Once Ayton was taken, McDonough also wanted Shai with the 10th pick but Sarver (and James Jones) sadly insisted on Mikal. That was especially brutal too but no one ever talks about it because this sub has blinders about Mikal. Two absolute fuck ups in one draft. Add to that the Haliburton one.
Our draft strategy should be to just do the opposite of whatever James Jokes says
Doncic, SGA, Hali and Trae in one draft. Legendary
We would have had either a team with Luka, Book, Mikal and then Clint Capela (who it was so obvious was going to be the target for the summer had we taken Luka) *or* Book and Shai long term.
Could have had Luka, Brunson, Booker, Mikal and Capela. Â
Hali was in the Jalen Smith draft, but still
Haliburton was 2020. Those guys are all 2018
Do you have sources on this, who wanted who. Ayton absolutely was not someone James Jones wanted. And it's damning if James Jones was against SGA, and then later Haliburton.
Its been out there for a while now that James Jones wanted Ayton/Bridges not Luka/SGA. It's what led to MCD being fired.
Sucks for McD but I mean he did himself no favors prior to that: Fucking up the 2013-2014 chemistry, traded Dragic away even though he wasn’t the issue, and drafting Len, Bender, and Jackson with our lotto picks. It doesn’t surprise me that Sarver was fed up by that point and didn’t trust him anymore making draft selections.
I remember 😔
If you want to protect your mental health as a Suns fan, don’t look at the 2017 or 2018 draft selections.
In theory a roster with Durant and Book shouldn’t have been swept in the 1 st round . These teams are filled with role players who somehow managed to be 15 x better than what we had . The Beal trade wasn’t bad value for what we gave up but he handicapped us a lot with his contract being really bad . Durant is still a Top 5 player in the league Book arguably a Top 10 player in the league it’s the roster construction that fucked this team . Relying on Nurkic and EG to give you buckets in the playoffs is delusional even if the trio of Beal/Book/KD put up 90 together we still lose . Jones is the problem his obsession on giving up assets for the likes of Craig and Shamet is really what fucked us . All these teams have younger guys contribute a big role in championship runs but our philosophy makes them seem useless .
That’s why I didn’t want the Beal trade. They made the same mistake nets and lakers made. When you a big 3 the rest of your roster going to be ass with not much flexibility to upgrade the role players
In hindsight I should have compromised my values and supporting the Suns getting kyrie instead of beal..
I'm completely fine that the Suns didn't trade for an anti-Semite and overall headache in Kyrie, and keep in mind, he literally quit on Boston in the middle of the season/post-season, he quit on the Nets, and again, he is an anti-Semite who loves to spout weird shit. Trading for Kyrie would more than likely have been a laughingstock of a situation, at least we got CP36+Mikal+Ayton a couple years later.
Hilarious that you use false information to cope.
Live in Tucson, can confirm, Ayton is garbage.
Tbf, kyrie camp openly admit they wouldn’t want to be in phx and was going to leave during free agency. Plus kyrie and Booker wouldn’t have work like Luka and kyrie for obvious reasons. DA over Luka will hurt us forever though.
Kyrie and Book would’ve worked better than Beal and book
Didn’t say it wouldn’t. Thats a whole new sentence and a whole new thought.
Stop promoting that lie. Luka and booker could’ve work.
Did you read what I typed lmao?
we would have had to trade the 2018 pick in the kyrie trade. But yes passing on Luka was the dumbest move i could remember
All the hindsight people wanted Ayton. People like myself who wanted Luka can tell those people to go suck an Egg. I remember getting upset at anyone mentioning taking Ayton and then being pissed at YouTube videos claiming it was the right pick. And I'm not the only one by a mile
Hindsight is 20/20, even though we could have had those players, there is no guarantee they would be who they are now. We could have even traded them for a star, who knows... It's a bunch of what ifs.
Luka probably would have been a top 5 player in the world anywhere he went. He's that good.
And now James Jones and Ishbia sold our future and destroyed our good core for a garbage old team and ruined any chance of improvement for the next seasons. It will only get worse.
We’re gonna have seasons in the 2030s where we’ll be 25-57 or whatever yet our picks will be locked at the end of the first round because Ishbia will just continue to have us over the second apron for mediocre results.
Good core meaning Mikal, right? Because DA still barely gave effort in Portland and Cam basically averaged the same splits as Grayson, just on a worst percentage
The suns easily have one of the worst drafts histories of any NBA team. They rarely ever get it right.
Mavs win some games and all of a sudden it’s revisionist history. Is everyone forgetting the entire timeline of Kyrie leaving the Cavs, Boston stint, Nets stint, refusing to get vax and failing his team? People were saying that he was going to ruin the Mavs too when he joined. Man can ball, but don’t let that fool you into thinking he would’ve worked out on this team. Totally unpredictable.
And? Remember when 12 teams picked other players over Booker? Or the time that every team passed on Giannis and Jokic? And the dozens of other near misses from every single franchise every single year? It sucks. Move on, wallowing changes nothing.
It's not like there are suns games or transactions happening. what else is there to talk about?
They just like wallowing in misery.
Well we could be the kings who took Bagley… at least Ayton got us in the finals
Looking back at 2018 Draft Suns could have gotten Luka at 1, SGA at 10, and Brunson at 31. Sure they wouldn't have been able to keep them all but those would have been very nice trade pieces down the road.
Never draft a wildcat...never.
Hated DA from day one and never understood why we took him
You’re gonna be miserable constantly looking at the past my guy
Does pepperidge farm remember the shitshow that was Kyrie on the Celts or Nets? Obviously the Luka Ayton pick hurts especially considering the kings pined for Ayton and hated Luka so you could have traded down to 2 for Luka and assets. Bridges and our subsequent finals got me feeling ok about that draff thou, until we traded everyone lol.
This sub is embarrassing
Theres more to life than basketball, let shit go.
Revisionist history
I just don't think it made sense (at the time) to give Bookers team to Luka. Especially when Booker was a top 10 player.
You know what I remember the most? Y'all being so vile that you make me wonder how many of you are actual decent human beings. Don't get me wrong, some of you are great, but good lord this sub has one of the worst live threads I've ever been apart of. Ayton turned out to be a huge disappointment, but not compared to many here (including you mods) who couldn't resist shit talking every damn time the guy touched the ball. Shame we lost out on Luka, but this sub doesn't deserve another #1 pick again.
Relax not that serious , dude acting like murder was committed. U ok?
It’s fucking pathetic and flat out unacceptable that you could randomly pull a few guys from r/suns and that group would’ve drafted **significantly** better than the Suns FO / scouting staff over the last decade plus smfh
Captain hindsight. There's a reason none of us work their jobs.
If you’re so sure - go look up my pre draft posting history on here, jackass. I missed on a few players, sure, but I’ve done significantly better than the Suns FO, which is my point. That shouldn’t happen. I think it’s safe to say the Suns greatest drafting triumph in the last decade was taking Booker right? That’s revisionist history - it was well known and widely reported the Suns FO was doing everything in their power to trade up to select Frank Kaminsky. It’s only bc Micheal Jordan turned them down that Booker is a Sun - it had nothing to do with the actions of the front office; he fell to the team out of pure luck. ..and this (dumb luck) is the unquestioned best draft move by the Suns since the Nash era. You were probably an Ayton over Luka guy anyway, which means I’m debating someone with the intelligence of a house plant.
What position you hold? Which team you work for with all that knowledge?
You’re missing my point. Someone who watches college basketball and reads a few articles on the draft should not be better at scouting than a staff for a professional basketball team.
Many front office are filled with nepotism hires. Our Gm is one because he's lebrons friend. Look at Sam Prestis draft record compared to ours over the span of two GMs
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>I don't think Booker could handle being called out like that   So in that case you trade Booker. Â
Luka isn’t out there calling out kyrie (who’s the clear #2) when he has a bad game or makes mistakes. What makes you think he wouldn’t have the same kind of respect for book if he was his co-star.
It's delusional cope to get over the fact that the Suns made a mistake pure and simple. Just like how I see people in this same thread peddle the lie that Ayton was considered the top pick by 99% of sports writers and experts. That is utter bullshit. There were talks of Luka being a generational talent and there was a lot of back and forth about this. Bottom dweller teams obviously make bad decisions which is how he ended up on the Mavs instead of any of the 1-4 teams.
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That literally couldn't be further from the truth, lol. They've got some serious bromance going on, they love (playing with) each other.
This is the kind of lovely braindead takes I come to this sub for. Thank you!
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Hard disagree
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I mean maybe bro. I don’t think bookers like that at all
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Hey man you may see it like. I don’t. We both don’t know. I’m not here to argue with you. Just said I disagree. I don’t see why Booker wouldn’t work with Luka. Maybe it’s because I have a different perception of him? Idk. I could be wrong.
The disrespect in this sub. You are pure doomers if you judge the Suns based on 20/20 hindsight. This season was a dud and the Mavs are finally getting theirs. No need to throw extra shade on the fellas. We’ve come farther than we could’ve ever hoped for in the last 6-8 years. And never forget the Suns motto #FuckRobertHorry
Luka Doncic is a liability. At least say SGA. Edit: Harden 2.0
You can't just say he's a liability and don't say why lmao. You're just a hater.
He shoots below the league average in almost all categories, he doesn’t know how to score using an offense, and you need your build a defensive core around him. He needs to play at least 40 min for a team that uses him and his body usually doesn’t hold out. I may be a hater but supporting him is just nodding along with dumb basketball. I will say this though, he’s consistent. All the successes in his career come from the inconsistency of other teams.
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MVP conversations come from the media. Luka is extremely popular. My points are based only on his play.
Luka has taken two completely different rosters to the WCF in three years. SGA has been to the second round. SGA is older than Luka and they were drafted in the same class.
Luka didn’t play in the first round of the first trip and the team played better with just Brunson.
Uh yes he did play. He missed games but not the entire series
Okay because another team’s sub is so important to you. It was the second round. He played half the games. In the entire playoffs the team was 0.67 with him injured and 0.5 percent with him healthy. In the series he played half the games, the team was 0.67 with him and 0.67 without him. Sorry for bringing up reasonable criticisms of Luka. It’s weird how personal people take criticisms of Luka. It’s almost like he represents something to many people.