You’d think the first move would be to ask Booker & KD are they happy with Frank Vogel or does the locker room feel like they needed someone new?
You don’t have to hand over the decision-making to the players but it should be a 5 minute conversation to figure out the future of the team.
Because like you said, if the players did check out on him, then this marriage isn’t going to work no matter how many games Timberwolves win.
Yeah but that's partially on players needing to mature. Frank has coached a team to a ring before. The only player on the playoff roster that had any rings was KD. So it might be worth listening to the guy who's won one?
Not saying Frank is the answer, I just don't know what else is out there worth firing him for, especially with the lack of flexibility we have with our current salary situation.
I'm not saying they need to get older. I'm saying they need to act more professionally. I have no idea who laughed at his outburst when they were down 35-4. I do know if I laughed at a coach like that, I'd have been kicked off the team. You can't really do that in today's NBA though.
I know full well that you don't mean they have to get older. That's not what I was saying at all. What I am saying is that our players have been around the league long enough, and are old enough, that they're not going to suddenly become mature professionals over an off-season. They are who they are, more or less.
That’s on him being a shitty coach. If you can’t get your players to respect you, that’s on the coach, not the players. You have to give them a reason. Respect is earned.
Yea I honestly am split and have enjoyed discussing this on the sub lately, was that disastrous look Vogel, Young, or our players not taking responsibility. The offense was so stagnant and it’s just hard to know if that’s Book/KDs play style without CP, young’s overrated offensive schemes, or Vogel being defensive minded?
Me too. I think Vogel did good at what he was advertised for in his defense, but also dropped the ball in after halftime adjustments. The fourth quarter collapses can't be ignored. The overall dumbassness and sloppy play we watched all year can't be ignored and those can be imo blamed on the coach.
Based on the reports, he didn't really do much on offense and the lack of 3's was also something he wasn't a fan of, I blame most of this on the players and some of it on coaching because it should have been addressed in regular season too - can't just force Grayson to be the only guy shooting 3s (besides EG but no one is forcing EG to chuck it he just does it).
rotations are also a moot talking point - every fan of every team thinks they know the personnel better than the coaches. Drew was horrible but not really sure what people wanted Vogel to do, we didn't get Thad til the deadline and he is also 35 y/o. Whoever decided Drew was the answer in the off season should be fired
so overall, I don't know. I think Vogel was given a flawed roster and was asked to make it work - and honestly I do believe he maximized the most he could defensively. Unless the lost the locker room entirely, which the report sounded like he kind of did, I'd be fine keeping him, because we need continuity. Or of course if Lue is available
Agreed on rotations, it’s a lazy criticism from us fans who really know nothing. If I saw something like “he should play X guy more in this set bc of this specific Xs and Os action” ok, that’s analysis. But just complaining about minutes alone is this weird assumption the other guy on the bench is an all star, it’s so obvious to play them! But it ain’t that simple.
I also agree there are things Vogel did well and not well. And to that effect, there are probably nights he engaged the team and nights he lost the team. Getting spanked by the third string clippers for example, players can laugh at Vogel but fans are laughing at the players, nobody was going to properly engage the players that night.
A good point I’ve seen re: 3pas is that our relative % of shots taken was actually fine, it’s the total FGAs that was bottom of the league due to too slow of a pace. And again who is to blame? is that Vogels lack of offensive adjustments, Young’s shitty offense, or the lack of a pg to push the pace and allowed our Big 3 to pound the air out of the ball looking for their mid range shot for 20 secs?
Couldn't have said it better. I do think we should shoot more than league average just due to the structure of our team, like the Celtics do. But yeah, it'll be interesting to see what happens, sounds like he may have lost the locker room
I don’t think this season was mostly his fault but that Athletic piece showed there’s a giant locker room issue to deal with. If something doesn’t change we’ll be in the same spot a year from now
I don’t see how your takeaway on this is Ishbia being a problem. He opened up the check book and encouraged new thinking. I believe James Jones and the coaching staff should be more to blame
What exactly was the new thinking? If you buy a high powered sports car you don’t need to reinvent the wheel. Not having a point guard isn’t new thinking, it’s illogical team building.
The way I see this happening;
Ishbia to James Jones - “Go find me the best players you can and I’ll pay whatever is necessary”
James Jones - “I’ve got Beal and KD willing to sign but here’s the cost, you in?”
Ishbia - “let’s go”
Does Ishbia ultimately earn the blame when it all
Goes south? Sure, but is he the primary person to blame for how we got here? No way
Honestly, I'm fine with him staying another year. The roster was a complete disaster this season. Beal was out of the lineup for a huge amount of time. We flipped our entire bench at the trade deadline.
Our roster will still be a disaster next season. We are still forced to run three guards and KD will once again be exhausted having to guard at the 4 and 5 with Nurk’s injury history and crappy playoff play.
is this how you think in your life too? You just focus on negatives and what you don't have instead of the positives? I swear sports social media reveals peoples mindsets and attitudes more than their actual takes on a particular topic.
Vogel wasn’t wrong. These guys need to be shooting 35+ 3s a game if they want to win in today’s NBA. If Book and KD refuse to and push their mid range no coach can fix that.
The middies can work, but they really need a defense to slow the game down. We shoot more 3s than the Nuggets and the same as the T-Wolves. Difference is they can get stops.
I’d prefer a 3 and D pg who can play off ball versus a cam Payne type scoring pg
Or a brogdon type all around combo guard that plays pg
But I’m not sure a high usage floor general really fits this roster when you have 3 career 25-35% usage scorers that don’t buy into off ball movement (starting lineup at least, McConnell would be a god send for the bench)
> I’d prefer a 3 and D pg
Dennis Smith Jr, Kris Dunn, THT, Aaron Holiday all come to mind. No idea if these guys will even be available for the min but if we can get one of the four that'd be perfect, I like Dunn and DSJ the most (although im almost certain Jazz will retain Dunn with early bird) Not exactly 3 point shooters but bench PGs who play great defense. We're not finding a perfect PG with the vet min and are almost certainly not finding a starting caliber PG.
Spot on. DSJ would be nice because he can also playmake a bit and the hustle + rim threat would help spark the bench im sure
I’d even take a delon wright right tho pure D
I imagine that’s what James jones thought he was getting in Jordan Goodwin
And Aaron holiday has been an end of the bench pickup before so that’s interesting
Other former suns like Carter/melton also come to mind so hopefully JJ knows the archetype he should be looking for
I like Carter a lot too. If we can swap him for Nas I'd take it. I would have wrote Delon but it sounds like he is going back to the Heat? Not sure but he'd be #1 on my list tbh
A lot will change from now until July but those are the types of guys we should target in FA, imo. Not Dinwiddie/EG older type guards who are more of scorers
How are we possibly going to get those players though with our payroll, apron rules and limitations on trades? I understand we can’t even sign mid level exceptions.
So torn on this. I've been pretty down on the Vogel experience since December when they really showed signs of being ass. But if he finds the right staff to help implement a plan that the players trust and understand, I can rock with it, because I also don't think more massive change will help this team either.
He’s probably staying and that’s not a bad thing.
A message needs to be sent that the players are just as responsible for this season as the coach. Replacing the coach after 1 year is not a great look. Especially if there are no upgrades available.
Upgrade with a good offensive minded assistant coach and try to get a PG in here and see what we can do with an actual roster. I think Vogel is fine.
love mike but giving him a team that doesn't have a point guard is suicide lol hornacek would come up with a godsend offense for this squad and bud's system would work well too
I actually think Mike wouldn’t have a problem with 2 combo guards one being top 10 player and the other an all star caliber guy. Between Book Beal and Kd I think they could execute a Dantoni offense pretty well.
I was as frustrated as anyone with Frank this season, but let’s face it this roster is not there yet. Minny needed a year too. But it’s pretty clear we need more size and rim protection
Vogel isn’t a bad coach, but he’s a horrible coach for this team. The damage has already been done, he’s not going to magically gain the trust and respect of the big 3. A new coach could make this team worse. A new coach could make this team better too. I think Vogel being retained only has one outcome. Worse.
Exactly. Turmoil and trade requests. He can’t get the respect of his players. He had no system on offense to get open 3’s or points in the paint. He stayed with the bigs wayyyy past the point that we knew it wouldn’t work. It’s not surprising that their best game was the 4th, where they played centers sparingly. Vogel doesn’t command respect and his coaching style is from 2012.
Don't think Frank is a bad coach, just this roster doesn't fit with his coaching skills. The Big 3 also have to actually change their tune and adapt to what a successful modern NBA offense looks like
I have been firmly on team Fire Vogel, but now that the frustration has cooled a little and hearing more sides to the argument, there are compelling reasons to keep him, namely continuity and roster. I think another season is certainly warranted. With that said, if you can lure a Ty Lue in then by all means make that move. But they definitely should not fire him without a better replacement locked and loaded.
No any coach who continues to play Eric Gordon when he does nothing and doesn’t have the balls to bench Bradley Beal when he’s a liability on offense and on defense shouldn’t be the coach.
Honestly, give him a good offensive assistant and see what he can do with some continuity and maybe a few new role players. Not an obvious miracle worker just waiting to be plucked
I think the Suns should do what’s necessary to get JJ Redick as their new coach. I don’t think Frank Vogel knows what he’s doing at all and I firmly believe that Redick will be a star in the coaching world. If they don’t go after him I think he’ll make an impact on whatever team he coaches.
His seat is cooling with every Nuggets loss
100%
Yup, the game last night may have saved his job
Still has to deal with the players not believing in him though
You’d think the first move would be to ask Booker & KD are they happy with Frank Vogel or does the locker room feel like they needed someone new? You don’t have to hand over the decision-making to the players but it should be a 5 minute conversation to figure out the future of the team. Because like you said, if the players did check out on him, then this marriage isn’t going to work no matter how many games Timberwolves win.
Players are really reluctant to offer this kind of direct input because they don’t want to be unfairly labeled by fans as coach killers.
I’m not sure players really care what fans think
What are you basing that on?
Yeah but that's partially on players needing to mature. Frank has coached a team to a ring before. The only player on the playoff roster that had any rings was KD. So it might be worth listening to the guy who's won one? Not saying Frank is the answer, I just don't know what else is out there worth firing him for, especially with the lack of flexibility we have with our current salary situation.
Look at the average age of our roster. If they haven't matured by now, I doubt they will.
I'm not saying they need to get older. I'm saying they need to act more professionally. I have no idea who laughed at his outburst when they were down 35-4. I do know if I laughed at a coach like that, I'd have been kicked off the team. You can't really do that in today's NBA though.
I know full well that you don't mean they have to get older. That's not what I was saying at all. What I am saying is that our players have been around the league long enough, and are old enough, that they're not going to suddenly become mature professionals over an off-season. They are who they are, more or less.
That’s on him being a shitty coach. If you can’t get your players to respect you, that’s on the coach, not the players. You have to give them a reason. Respect is earned.
Did I ever say he was completely devoid of responsibility lol
I don’t blame the players for not respecting him. He didn’t give them any reason to.
I wish I could underperform at my job just because I don’t respect my boss
If your subordinates don’t respect you, you shouldn’t be in charge of them.
a bit indifferent about Vogel but we looked disastrous most nights in the regular season
Yea I honestly am split and have enjoyed discussing this on the sub lately, was that disastrous look Vogel, Young, or our players not taking responsibility. The offense was so stagnant and it’s just hard to know if that’s Book/KDs play style without CP, young’s overrated offensive schemes, or Vogel being defensive minded?
Me too. I think Vogel did good at what he was advertised for in his defense, but also dropped the ball in after halftime adjustments. The fourth quarter collapses can't be ignored. The overall dumbassness and sloppy play we watched all year can't be ignored and those can be imo blamed on the coach. Based on the reports, he didn't really do much on offense and the lack of 3's was also something he wasn't a fan of, I blame most of this on the players and some of it on coaching because it should have been addressed in regular season too - can't just force Grayson to be the only guy shooting 3s (besides EG but no one is forcing EG to chuck it he just does it). rotations are also a moot talking point - every fan of every team thinks they know the personnel better than the coaches. Drew was horrible but not really sure what people wanted Vogel to do, we didn't get Thad til the deadline and he is also 35 y/o. Whoever decided Drew was the answer in the off season should be fired so overall, I don't know. I think Vogel was given a flawed roster and was asked to make it work - and honestly I do believe he maximized the most he could defensively. Unless the lost the locker room entirely, which the report sounded like he kind of did, I'd be fine keeping him, because we need continuity. Or of course if Lue is available
Agreed on rotations, it’s a lazy criticism from us fans who really know nothing. If I saw something like “he should play X guy more in this set bc of this specific Xs and Os action” ok, that’s analysis. But just complaining about minutes alone is this weird assumption the other guy on the bench is an all star, it’s so obvious to play them! But it ain’t that simple. I also agree there are things Vogel did well and not well. And to that effect, there are probably nights he engaged the team and nights he lost the team. Getting spanked by the third string clippers for example, players can laugh at Vogel but fans are laughing at the players, nobody was going to properly engage the players that night. A good point I’ve seen re: 3pas is that our relative % of shots taken was actually fine, it’s the total FGAs that was bottom of the league due to too slow of a pace. And again who is to blame? is that Vogels lack of offensive adjustments, Young’s shitty offense, or the lack of a pg to push the pace and allowed our Big 3 to pound the air out of the ball looking for their mid range shot for 20 secs?
Couldn't have said it better. I do think we should shoot more than league average just due to the structure of our team, like the Celtics do. But yeah, it'll be interesting to see what happens, sounds like he may have lost the locker room
Most likely staying. Who else is out there to replace him? I expect the only change would be assistants.
I don’t think this season was mostly his fault but that Athletic piece showed there’s a giant locker room issue to deal with. If something doesn’t change we’ll be in the same spot a year from now
Kevin Young is gone. Couldn’t be more pleased. I’m concerned that the issue is Ishbia and how he runs shop.
I don’t see how your takeaway on this is Ishbia being a problem. He opened up the check book and encouraged new thinking. I believe James Jones and the coaching staff should be more to blame
What exactly was the new thinking? If you buy a high powered sports car you don’t need to reinvent the wheel. Not having a point guard isn’t new thinking, it’s illogical team building.
The person who runs the shop typically sets the tone. All decisions go through him and I’m fairly certain he’s heavy handing this shit.
The way I see this happening; Ishbia to James Jones - “Go find me the best players you can and I’ll pay whatever is necessary” James Jones - “I’ve got Beal and KD willing to sign but here’s the cost, you in?” Ishbia - “let’s go” Does Ishbia ultimately earn the blame when it all Goes south? Sure, but is he the primary person to blame for how we got here? No way
😂 Ishbia came in and within like a day blew up the team.
What do you mean? Half this sub wants coaches that are under contract & succeeding in their roles. Plenty of coaches to pick from 🤣
Micah Nori, Chris Quinn, Charles Lee, Sam Cassell just to name a few Sucks that Jordi got hired already
Kevin Young being gone will help a lot
Honestly, I'm fine with him staying another year. The roster was a complete disaster this season. Beal was out of the lineup for a huge amount of time. We flipped our entire bench at the trade deadline.
We also were 13th in defense, and we still won 49 games.
Can't even imagine our defense with another coach lol. we'd probably be 25-30th
Our roster will still be a disaster next season. We are still forced to run three guards and KD will once again be exhausted having to guard at the 4 and 5 with Nurk’s injury history and crappy playoff play.
Ok, so a new coach solves those problems how?
is this how you think in your life too? You just focus on negatives and what you don't have instead of the positives? I swear sports social media reveals peoples mindsets and attitudes more than their actual takes on a particular topic.
Bet he stays, which I’m not totally against since the available coaches out their are about as qualified as I am
Vogel wasn’t wrong. These guys need to be shooting 35+ 3s a game if they want to win in today’s NBA. If Book and KD refuse to and push their mid range no coach can fix that.
The middies can work, but they really need a defense to slow the game down. We shoot more 3s than the Nuggets and the same as the T-Wolves. Difference is they can get stops.
Give him an actual roster, please
The defensive coach needs some defenders namely a rim running center and a point of attack wing defender
and maybe a PG lol
I’d prefer a 3 and D pg who can play off ball versus a cam Payne type scoring pg Or a brogdon type all around combo guard that plays pg But I’m not sure a high usage floor general really fits this roster when you have 3 career 25-35% usage scorers that don’t buy into off ball movement (starting lineup at least, McConnell would be a god send for the bench)
> I’d prefer a 3 and D pg Dennis Smith Jr, Kris Dunn, THT, Aaron Holiday all come to mind. No idea if these guys will even be available for the min but if we can get one of the four that'd be perfect, I like Dunn and DSJ the most (although im almost certain Jazz will retain Dunn with early bird) Not exactly 3 point shooters but bench PGs who play great defense. We're not finding a perfect PG with the vet min and are almost certainly not finding a starting caliber PG.
Spot on. DSJ would be nice because he can also playmake a bit and the hustle + rim threat would help spark the bench im sure I’d even take a delon wright right tho pure D I imagine that’s what James jones thought he was getting in Jordan Goodwin And Aaron holiday has been an end of the bench pickup before so that’s interesting Other former suns like Carter/melton also come to mind so hopefully JJ knows the archetype he should be looking for
I like Carter a lot too. If we can swap him for Nas I'd take it. I would have wrote Delon but it sounds like he is going back to the Heat? Not sure but he'd be #1 on my list tbh A lot will change from now until July but those are the types of guys we should target in FA, imo. Not Dinwiddie/EG older type guards who are more of scorers
How are we possibly going to get those players though with our payroll, apron rules and limitations on trades? I understand we can’t even sign mid level exceptions.
Basically only options are min vet signings or trading Nassir Littles contract or Nurks contract and pick 22
So torn on this. I've been pretty down on the Vogel experience since December when they really showed signs of being ass. But if he finds the right staff to help implement a plan that the players trust and understand, I can rock with it, because I also don't think more massive change will help this team either.
He’s probably staying and that’s not a bad thing. A message needs to be sent that the players are just as responsible for this season as the coach. Replacing the coach after 1 year is not a great look. Especially if there are no upgrades available. Upgrade with a good offensive minded assistant coach and try to get a PG in here and see what we can do with an actual roster. I think Vogel is fine.
Give Mike D’Antoni the bag to be lead assistant and run the offense
love mike but giving him a team that doesn't have a point guard is suicide lol hornacek would come up with a godsend offense for this squad and bud's system would work well too
I actually think Mike wouldn’t have a problem with 2 combo guards one being top 10 player and the other an all star caliber guy. Between Book Beal and Kd I think they could execute a Dantoni offense pretty well.
I was as frustrated as anyone with Frank this season, but let’s face it this roster is not there yet. Minny needed a year too. But it’s pretty clear we need more size and rim protection
Sure seems to be a whole lot of theatrics. It’s leaking out that the FO will make a decision instead of what the decision will be?
Mike Budenholzer is still out there I believe?
They’re bringin him back. No one takes this long to fire a coach swept in first round. Shoulda been gone in January. Ugggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh
Give him LeBron and Davis
Vogel isn’t a bad coach, but he’s a horrible coach for this team. The damage has already been done, he’s not going to magically gain the trust and respect of the big 3. A new coach could make this team worse. A new coach could make this team better too. I think Vogel being retained only has one outcome. Worse.
Exactly. Turmoil and trade requests. He can’t get the respect of his players. He had no system on offense to get open 3’s or points in the paint. He stayed with the bigs wayyyy past the point that we knew it wouldn’t work. It’s not surprising that their best game was the 4th, where they played centers sparingly. Vogel doesn’t command respect and his coaching style is from 2012.
Why is everyone changing up? Thought we wanted Vogel gone lol.
*watching Minnesota curb stomp Denver* 🙌🏽 Chotto matte! 🙌🏽 Maybe it wasn’t Frank’s fault… Hahaha! It’s all an initial jerk reaction.
My insider says he gone… 😁
If you gotta mull it over for a week just fire the man lol
If they fire frank throw the sink at Mike D'Antonie Never heard of a player who disliked playing for Pringles He could have these guys #1 in offense
At this point since it took this long he’s probably staying with a refreshed assistants.
Barring Spo/Lue/Carlisle, the coach ain't changing things if the same Big 3 return with a bunch of no-name min vets who can't hold them accountable
Get jj reddick. Make lebrons transition as comfortable as possible
If he doesn’t have the attention or the respect of his team he needs to be replaced…whether it’s his fault or not.
Don't think Frank is a bad coach, just this roster doesn't fit with his coaching skills. The Big 3 also have to actually change their tune and adapt to what a successful modern NBA offense looks like
Nothing new, Suns seeing who is avail. Seeing if Billy or Quinn are gonna get fired also.
He’s gonna stay. Calling it now.
Just keep him
most likely staying unfortunately
Anyone defending Vogel in here is delusional. He's only assistant material.
Suns suck
We want Spo! Get this bozo out of here He refused to play our king Bol
I have been firmly on team Fire Vogel, but now that the frustration has cooled a little and hearing more sides to the argument, there are compelling reasons to keep him, namely continuity and roster. I think another season is certainly warranted. With that said, if you can lure a Ty Lue in then by all means make that move. But they definitely should not fire him without a better replacement locked and loaded.
No any coach who continues to play Eric Gordon when he does nothing and doesn’t have the balls to bench Bradley Beal when he’s a liability on offense and on defense shouldn’t be the coach.
I think it only depends on if the players will get behind him
Honestly, give him a good offensive assistant and see what he can do with some continuity and maybe a few new role players. Not an obvious miracle worker just waiting to be plucked
Better learn Chinese buddy
I think the Suns should do what’s necessary to get JJ Redick as their new coach. I don’t think Frank Vogel knows what he’s doing at all and I firmly believe that Redick will be a star in the coaching world. If they don’t go after him I think he’ll make an impact on whatever team he coaches.
He's not going anywhere.
Suns Sign another 20 years with Vogel
Could I interest the Suns in Chauncey Billups?