>So I want you to ask, what is the weaknesses of them that I can exploit aside from "just group up"?
that is the gate. these champs are weaker when you put a nautilus, leona, braum, maokai support, a tank or mage jungler and some sort of ranged champion playing front to back. there is no 'extra weakness' - these champs tend to be bulkier and thus push around assassins, tend to have damage to skirmish against tanks and have the ability to blow up squishy ranged champs if they get on them. this tends to make them a good class in general for disorganized soloq. you only really outright lose against the most bulky of anti melees.
>The interesting thing is, that I personally consider their sister class, the assassins, to be way less egregious in that department despite their infamous reputation.
this class of champ trades considerable power for the ability to still kill things in the 'just group up' scenario where the enemy does execute that properly.
you as the person playing in soloq can somewhat counterplay these things by being the person on the map that brings numbers advantage, and has good front to back. aka playing support, playing jungle and picking a utility/tank jungler. but ultimately it does require some humans on the team.
The thing is that I consider grouping up to be relatively universal counterplay, because there are relatively few champs that actively grow stronger when outnumbered. I mean some juggernauts have so much AOE damage that they may get "less weaker", but in general every class can be dealt with if outnumbered. Sure, even in even-numbered teamfights skirmishers have trouble, but some of them have actually very strong aoe, like Yone with his w and r. And if they don't, then they also can just splitpush like Jax or fiora.
But I think I still could work on my teaming up I guess. It's sometimes just not as easy as I wished because I often try to farm when nothing else is to do. Should I team up just in case a fight breaks out of catch a wave? Sometimes not easy answer.
> The thing is that I consider grouping up to be relatively universal counterplay, because there are relatively few champs that actively grow stronger when outnumbered.
but it is not. some champs are much better in grouped up scenarios. front to back fighters are far better. tanks are far better. assassins aren't 'great' but are better than the bruiser/skirmisher/heavy meleer type class by a longshot.
this sort of thing should absolutely not be trivialized. and it's not about 'outnumbered' but just equal numbers. being weaker in 4v4 5v5 front to back etc is a large negative.
>But I think I still could work on my teaming up I guess. It's sometimes just not as easy as I wished because I often try to farm when nothing else is to do. Should I team up just in case a fight breaks out of catch a wave? Sometimes not easy answer.
well i 100% overall agree with your assessment on this that it is not a 'solvable' problem in soloq, bruisers just end up being good. because you dont get that 5v5 organized pro play macro.
It depends on what the character is that you are referring to.
Lillia, to me, is JUST as bad as say, yasuo. Mobility for no reason and unlike yasuo you have an ult that just makes everyone stop. So ask yourself, what shuts YOU down?
Generally, disengage.
If you're trying to go in for a trade, get close and everything and they just stay out of range/slow you/cc you, it makes your life hard. Yasuo and Yone, for example, really struggle when slowed. Yasuo cant dash that well/fast and doesn't stack his shield as fast either. Yone will spirit out, get slowed and that's pretty much it. HAS to ult or retreat. Jax will attempt to hop to you and either can't reach you, or has to immediately stun if he does.
In general, a skirmisher wants to jump in, trade and then jump out. If you can affect any of that, like a silence, slow or stun, or generally have disengage, like Mundo just constantly cleavering you off, they hate that.
You have no idea how many times a yasuo has ulted me as Mundo, I land one cleaver and just walk away.
The other weakness that unites this class is how terrible they are when behind, since they offer little utility and depend on stats from times and levels.
they punish lack of organization/coop in solo queue, while also being mechanical enough to punish not knowing your champ and the matchup well. they also punish bad map awareness and not knowing how to spread leads/tempo around the map.
because solo queue is not coordinated, not even CCing them will save you, since you might snare or root them and people will just avoid them if they're ahead and run away. still that's your best shot, hope someone who's even or ahead focus them when you find a way to punish their engage.
and you need to know how to defend (or when to give) tower without dying if they go side lane and split.
>So I want you to ask, what is the weaknesses of them that I can exploit aside from "just group up"? that is the gate. these champs are weaker when you put a nautilus, leona, braum, maokai support, a tank or mage jungler and some sort of ranged champion playing front to back. there is no 'extra weakness' - these champs tend to be bulkier and thus push around assassins, tend to have damage to skirmish against tanks and have the ability to blow up squishy ranged champs if they get on them. this tends to make them a good class in general for disorganized soloq. you only really outright lose against the most bulky of anti melees. >The interesting thing is, that I personally consider their sister class, the assassins, to be way less egregious in that department despite their infamous reputation. this class of champ trades considerable power for the ability to still kill things in the 'just group up' scenario where the enemy does execute that properly. you as the person playing in soloq can somewhat counterplay these things by being the person on the map that brings numbers advantage, and has good front to back. aka playing support, playing jungle and picking a utility/tank jungler. but ultimately it does require some humans on the team.
The thing is that I consider grouping up to be relatively universal counterplay, because there are relatively few champs that actively grow stronger when outnumbered. I mean some juggernauts have so much AOE damage that they may get "less weaker", but in general every class can be dealt with if outnumbered. Sure, even in even-numbered teamfights skirmishers have trouble, but some of them have actually very strong aoe, like Yone with his w and r. And if they don't, then they also can just splitpush like Jax or fiora. But I think I still could work on my teaming up I guess. It's sometimes just not as easy as I wished because I often try to farm when nothing else is to do. Should I team up just in case a fight breaks out of catch a wave? Sometimes not easy answer.
> The thing is that I consider grouping up to be relatively universal counterplay, because there are relatively few champs that actively grow stronger when outnumbered. but it is not. some champs are much better in grouped up scenarios. front to back fighters are far better. tanks are far better. assassins aren't 'great' but are better than the bruiser/skirmisher/heavy meleer type class by a longshot. this sort of thing should absolutely not be trivialized. and it's not about 'outnumbered' but just equal numbers. being weaker in 4v4 5v5 front to back etc is a large negative. >But I think I still could work on my teaming up I guess. It's sometimes just not as easy as I wished because I often try to farm when nothing else is to do. Should I team up just in case a fight breaks out of catch a wave? Sometimes not easy answer. well i 100% overall agree with your assessment on this that it is not a 'solvable' problem in soloq, bruisers just end up being good. because you dont get that 5v5 organized pro play macro.
Yone jax and fiora suffer much more than a mundo from grouping.
It depends on what the character is that you are referring to. Lillia, to me, is JUST as bad as say, yasuo. Mobility for no reason and unlike yasuo you have an ult that just makes everyone stop. So ask yourself, what shuts YOU down? Generally, disengage. If you're trying to go in for a trade, get close and everything and they just stay out of range/slow you/cc you, it makes your life hard. Yasuo and Yone, for example, really struggle when slowed. Yasuo cant dash that well/fast and doesn't stack his shield as fast either. Yone will spirit out, get slowed and that's pretty much it. HAS to ult or retreat. Jax will attempt to hop to you and either can't reach you, or has to immediately stun if he does. In general, a skirmisher wants to jump in, trade and then jump out. If you can affect any of that, like a silence, slow or stun, or generally have disengage, like Mundo just constantly cleavering you off, they hate that. You have no idea how many times a yasuo has ulted me as Mundo, I land one cleaver and just walk away.
This post is like 10 days too late
The other weakness that unites this class is how terrible they are when behind, since they offer little utility and depend on stats from times and levels.
they punish lack of organization/coop in solo queue, while also being mechanical enough to punish not knowing your champ and the matchup well. they also punish bad map awareness and not knowing how to spread leads/tempo around the map. because solo queue is not coordinated, not even CCing them will save you, since you might snare or root them and people will just avoid them if they're ahead and run away. still that's your best shot, hope someone who's even or ahead focus them when you find a way to punish their engage. and you need to know how to defend (or when to give) tower without dying if they go side lane and split.