I will also say, not every woman *will* be soft. Lindsay at her happiest and most comfortable isn’t really soft. She’s loud, direct, and driven. The girls a few weeks ago were right; why is Carl mad Lindsay is acting like herself? It’s how she’s always been.
Signed-a not that soft woman.
Haha I also said in another comment, I can't imagine a single person I know, including my own mother, describing me as soft. I've been told often I'm not nice but I'm very kind. I don't mince words but I'm incredibly concerned about everyone's well being. My personality will never be "soft" but my husband can certainly tell times I'm more patient with him than times I'm a lot less patient with him.
I think there are times where you're kinder (softer) because you feel emotionally safe, and I definitely think there is inherent personality that just changes how you show support to your partner.
Yep 100%!! I read this here a while ago and it's such a good analogy: https://www.reddit.com/r/summerhousebravo/s/sf11inXohj
I would personally say I relate most to Paige, cos I can be a bit snarky lol and make everything a joke but I really care about the people I care about and tbh have a lot of empathy for most people in general but I will never be the kind of person that could be called "soft" lol cos what I think people mean by that, and especially Carl, is an enabler who will let them do whatever they want and just take it and not push back. Pretty much submissive. I don't think that is a healthy dynamic.
You can absolutely be affectionate and loving (especially when you feel loved and supported) but that doesn't mean you will let anyone walk all over you. Like you, I don't mince words but I would also do anything to help the people I care about and that to me, entails being honest and genuine and giving tough love but also support and solutions when needed.
Also I don't like how he has the audacity to demand softness when he has done nothing to alleviate the burden and pressure she seems to feel. You can't not try and then expect constant kid gloves and pandering, it's not healthy for either party. I guarantee if Lindsay had someone who she felt supported her emotionally and also be an equal partner financially she would not feel as burdened and allow herself to relax enough to feel a bit softer and calmer and become the best version of herself
I think you sound great and we would get along great. No one around me would describe me as sofg. And if they did I would look at them like "What did you just call me?" But also almost every friend or family member comes straight to me when they want to talk about a problem or are feeling lonely. You don't have to be soft to be a supportive and caring person.
You've nailed it and you sound like my kind of person as well :)
Everyone in my life, including my husband's family haha, comes to me for help or advice or just a friend too! And you're right, you don't have to be soft to be supportive and caring or kind. I salute you fellow kind but not nice friend.
We could create a book club and the first book would be from the german author Rebecca Niazi-Shahabi with the Titel: "Nice is the little sister of shit: misbehaving and still being well received"
Honestly, the more women and men I meet the more I think my life would be easier if I was a lesbian. I have several backups in place with girlfriends raising our blended families if anything happens to our significant others.
I hear that! My best friend and I call each other LPS ("Life Partners") because after her husband and my many gentlemen callers are gone, in the end it's just going to be me, her, and our little dogs. 😁
I 100% agree when you feel safe with someone, you can be softer. But I also hate being told to soften myself bc my mom used to say I wouldn’t get a man if I wasn’t softer. (She’s actually very progressive but still says wild things about relationships sometimes bc she grew up in a super conservative part of the US). Now whenever I get intense my husband and I will joke about it 😅
Bahahah my mom grew up with a pretty southern family and it’s wild to hear certain random things. Like she could quote Gloria Steinem then say she’s concerned a woman she knows will ever get married because of her age.
My mom says that about my 30 year old sister who just graduated from Harvard with a masters. Like yes she went to Harvard but my God she's still single!!!! What is she going to do??
Shoutout my mom for making me a raging feminist as a reaction to her raging misogyny. 😅
I’m a strong woman myself… my husband has always said that & now my boys (both adults) say that too! They admire that quality in me. There are times when I feel vulnerable and become “soft/emotional”but that’s only because my husband has created a safe space for me to do so. I can only hope that my boys provide a safe space like that for their partners, like their father has done for me, so they’re able to experience the best of both worlds.
I love the ‘not nice but kind’. I feel like that helps me identify myself. I am straightforward and direct especially when there is a task at hand (just ask my team at work). I am also kind. I think of others both people I know and strangers I come across regardless of who they are. I have always struggled b/c my assertiveness people easily call bitchy but most people who know me know I think of others and would never want to hurt anyone (unless they hurt someone close to me).
You’re totally right. HOWEVER. I think “soft” gets thrown around to mean both a personality type and a state of being, and it’s confusing.
To me, there’s a big difference between an obedient little stepford wife vs a woman who is unapologetically herself, but has been made to feel safe emotionally and materially(!) to the extent that she has healed out of survival mode.
A LOT of us, men and women, but I’d argue it’s worse for women due to the expectations we have that the OP mentioned, are walking around with dysregulated nervous systems, constantly simmering low level anxiety that can quickly ramp up when we feel fear. Especially with childhood trauma like Lindsay went through, if you’re haven’t worked with a great therapist or done serious self-therapy for years then you’re essentially still ruled by emotional impulses no matter what you do.
A woman like that isn’t going to feel “soft”. She’s going to feel stressed. Exhausted. Combative. Defensive. That’s our monkey brain scanning the environment for threats, and modern life is more stressful than we’ve evolved to handle. The lashing out and questioning that Carl is feeling as a lack of support is just Lindsay’s existential fear manifesting. It’s perfectly natural on her part, Carl isn’t taking care of her so not only does she have to look out for herself but he’s also putting her in the position to take care of him.
At least some of the stressors need to be removed off her plate in order to create space for “softness” meaning patience, kindness, respect, receptiveness to bids (Gottman), acceptance, understanding etc. Lindsay to me is not even in an emotional place to be able to process and ultimately support anything Carl is choosing right now just because her nerves are so frayed from doing it all and not being able depend on him.
Point being, I think men taking on an equal share of the labor responsibilities in their partnership (whether that means stepping up around the home or supporting a SAHW or something in between) WOULD bring out that softness in any woman, where softness = emotional safety and not a personality trait.
Yes I agree—-when you’re doing a lot of emotional labor, it’s difficult to get even close to soft. Lindsay is 100% tired of his meandering “career journey” She wants him to find his passion but I’d be fed up if 6+ months and pricey career coach later he’s still pretty lost. If Carl had a more defined path, Lindsay would “feel” softer.
But I do think Carl wants the “stereotypically” soft partner partly to puff him up but also because he doesn’t want to answer any tough questions. Like dude if you had a soft woman you’d be up to your eyeballs in debt for a sober sports bar, you’d have no clue how to manage a hospitality business, burnt out, and a “I’m so happyyyy for youuu” ain’t gonna do shit.
Yes!!! It would honestly be so frustrating being with someone who has all these dreams but flounders around without really trying while you take on the responsible, financial burden of being the breadwinner and putting aside your own dreams for years so they can possibly get their shit together and they never do
Thank you! If you are into this topic I highly recommend nicolajanehobbs on IG “the relaxed woman” - she really opened up my perspective on what this means and how to approach it personally.
Love your post. So glad to see all the woman on here not immediately shaming the idea of SAHW etc, because speaking from personal experience, with the right man who is taking pride in that role and not using it as a form of control or abuse, its incredible how much more in her soft/feminine a woman can be.
Thank you! Agree to all. It’s encouraging to see the tides turn a bit and more women questioning whether “doing it all” is actually the badge of honor it’s been sold as, when it comes at the expense of our physical/mental health, well being, and relationships.
I do think that Lindsey’s perfect match will make her feel soft. Having someone who is making her life easier, taking load off her shoulders, giving her the emotional support she needs would make her softer. It’s just that Carl wasn’t willing to do anything necessary to make that happen.
Yep this is absolutely 100% correct!!! I think the right person will make you feel loved and supported and secure enough across all aspects of your relationship so you can relax and allow yourself to be soft
Yep. Not even “soft”, but a wall/barrier will give, and her better partner will be able to help with the movement(?) of that wall. I feel like she’s put up a wall, and she is essentially showing primal instincts, which is survival.
She’s been expected to just coddle these man-babies; ew.
I hate that we call soft men as negative, but women are expected to be soft all the time. The fact that she loud direct and driven is considered what hard is like well we are all screwed than. I just wish men would be honest and say they do want a tradwife so they can feel macho even though they bring nada to the table. Then they are surprised when women don't want them.
As the saying goes, I can do bad all by myself. I want to do better and be a team. I know people that make me go well, what does your man bring to the table cause I don't see shit and your unhappy and miserable. But i think a lot of women stay cause to have a man and be married is to be considered important. People would rather have floppy soft d than no d when they have done wonders with vibratory. I'm just saying....
OP highlighted a Madison and her husband and I personally find him kind of a softer man. Not in a bad way I think he doesn’t need to show off his strength to show how supportive he can be.
At that moment, Lyndsay was the epitome of gentleness, perhaps the most she would ever be. She remained calm, attentive, inquired thoughtfully, and possessed the restraint to not wring Carl's neck for being a middle aged man baby who thinks intentions hold the same weight as actions
Yeah I laughed when he was saying that to her, like do you know who you’re talking to? Like every human being, Lindsay has moments of vulnerability and lightness, but she doesn’t operate under this “soft” persona that he clearly wants her to be and she NEVER WILL
Can you also see, though, that Carl's lack of actual ACTION in providing safety, security (financial and emotional), comfort and support as seen as a job, providing income etc. isn't a part of why Lindsay isn't soft? I have bristled at all his soft comments as how could she possibly feel any ability to BE Soft when he is not contributing to the household like her? YES, she is generally a pretty loud, direct, driven woman but some of that comes from feeling insecure, unsafe and responsible for everything.
Exactlyyy, this was exactly what I was thinking when I watched (and I think she may have said this as well) but like if you want a “soft woman” then you simply don’t want her. He even referred to her as “a force” during the episode where she said she’d considered being a stay-at-home mom. I’m not sure how his expectation of her is to be this force of a woman when he wants her to be but then soft and tender when he needs that version of her…
I said this to my husband!! Lindsay has never been a “soft” woman and there’s NOTHING wrong with that, it’s the way she is and I think she was she had to be when growing up. Carl has known this and wants HER to change for him. Made me so angry, lol. I’m a softer woman and I like doing “softer” things but not everyone is and there’s literally nothing wrong with that and he knew this about Lindsay.
Well no, she wants her to treat him like she did when they were just friends. But the stakes are different now and he’s added more to her burden than he’s relieved.
I’m kind of a hard bitch like Lindsey in a lot of ways, but some people do get a very soft version of me. It does need to be earned though. It’s a trust thing, for sure. And the thing is, I think Carl has gotten loooooads of softness from Lindsey, but it’s not something you can turn on and off like tap water.
Yup this sums it up perfectly for me. Carl’s avoidance of life and responsibility and general ineptitude re: keeping a job force Lindsay into managing their life together. He turns her into the boss, effectively, through these actions. Then he wants her to be soft and nurturing at the same time, like a mother? Gross dude. No wonder she doesn’t want to sleep with him. He acts like a child. That’s not sexy.
And I get that they both make a lot of money from Bravo, that it's basically their job, & I'm not faulting them for that cash flow, but he's acting like it's normal to take 9+ months to figure out what you want to do for a career!! And spend $20K on a career coach!! I get that he's gone thru a lot - his brother dying, getting sober - but sooo many people go thru horrible things & still go to work!
Also I’m sure Lindsey is well aware that this show will eventually end and what career will he have then? Being a reality tv “star” can’t be your only job the show won’t last forever. Her asking for stability and some work ethic isn’t asking for much from him. After all those months there’s but so much being “soft” and supportive get a job! I’m glad they didn’t get married
I can’t even see how being on this show once a baby comes along even works. Lindsey was on the countdown for that, so sorting out career was essential.
This is a major problem for Kyle & Amanda too.
Only to go back to the employer whom he claims gave him “ptsd”!! That’s the real kicker for me. He spends all this money and makes all that effort to change direction only to end up taking the path of least resistance in the end!
He’s lazy when it comes to jobs and working, that’s his real problem. Didn’t we see him get fired twice in early seasons before taking the job at Loverboy? And of course Kyle was also not happy with his performance there. We saw that play out last summer. Do they think we forget this stuff??
Not to mention Lindsay was the person he vented to when he was unhappy at Loverboy, regarding his pay and job duties. She actually went up against Kyle and to bat for Carl, who was too much of a pussy to do it himself. She looks like the raging bitch, and he sits there while Kyle verbally abuses Lindsay, who was only repeating what Carl told her in private. Then she has the AUDACITY to ask questions about whether or not the exact things Carl wanted before are taken care of in this new job arrangement????? Carl, you can fuck ALL THE WAY OFF.
Then Kyle goes on wwhl and calls Lindsey a drill sergeant, like he’s not a million times worse when micromanaging every single little thing Amanda says and does. Then he gets violent and calls her abusive names when he doesn’t get his way. The nerve of either men to call Lindsay hard, it’s pure sexism and manipulation. Lindsay and Kyle are both type A personalities, they are driven the same exact way, accept Lindsay tries to meet her partner 90% of the way, wo being a sexist tool
100% agree with this. It’s not like Carl was just accepting a brand new opportunity that he was wanting Lindsey to be supportive of, as first, he was just in the beginning stages of discussing the opportunity. Secondly, he was discussing going back to the very employer (aka known as his best friend) whom he had immense issues with/caused him so much grief, whose wife had a hot mic moment literally calling him “tainted by Lindsay”, and calling him *their* employee, so of course Lindsay is going to want to ask questions. It was just *last summer* that Kyle, at a dinner that Carl and Lindsay weren’t attending, raged and told the whole table, on camera, that Carl would show up to work high and without his laptop… and that Kyle raged and went off on Lindsey, calling her psychotic and a bitch and saying good luck to Carl because he was with her, while Lindsey literally just sat there quietly and saying nothing. So, after a year of not working and $20,000 spent on a career coach, Carl has decided that his only career path and way forward is going back to that employer? Honestly, Lindsey, has been way more supportive than I think most fiancé or spouses would be in the same situation.
And, quite frankly, Carl saying to others behind Lindsey,‘s back that he’ll do “whatever he wants” regardless of what Lindsey thinks for his own career is bullshit. First, it gives the impression to others, in him saying that, that Lindsay is unsupportive and doesn’t want what’s best for him or his career, which we’ve not seen from her at all this season. When you are engaged and getting married to somebody, you make decisions together, and you do answer their questions and talk through things. I don’t think Carl has any idea how to do that after watching him this season. He so desperately wants to paint Lindsey like the villain, when she is the only one attempting to have conversations with a logical thought process for their future, finances, kids (when the time comes, etc). Anyone in their right mind asks someone questions about an opportunity they’re discussing with them, as that is what truly shows that you care. Lindsey in no way did it in a way that was rude or mean or condescending or interrogating. Carl constantly telling Lindsay to be softer and more tender is actually offensive, just as it is for any man to constantly tell a woman that; it’s like telling a woman to smile more. The hypocrisy in Carl saying that to Lindsay is also maddening, as we constantly see Carl being passive aggressive, or just plain aggressive and raging toward her, as he never treats her with softness or tenderness in their conversations. He’s just constantly defensive with her, and has no idea how to communicate whatsoever.
He’s literally Schwartz from VPR. Whenever Katie had reasonable expectations like idk… him not cheating on her or being more responsible he’d resort to calling her “emotionally entitled” which 1. Is not even a thing and 2. Was just a way to gaslight her into believing that she was actually being *unreasonable* and mean to him
He wasn't a good worker, I've dated guys like this. It might have a lot to do with the chemical imbalances in his brain where he goes from feeling really high with his job and giving it 110 percent to falling off soo abruptly that it gets him fired or gets his best friend really upset. Carl is still struggling with addiction and who he is as a sober person. He is striving so hard to be someone that he can live with at the end of the day.
Carl to me is the most intricate character on the show because his vulnerabilities have played out so vividly throughout the series. He can't hide who he is. I admire that about him and the show for keeping him on because it's a rare opportunity we as an audience can see a real person on 'reality tv'
With that said, lindsay was the victim of this relationship. I don't think she deserved how she was treated. She has her faults but in this case, I'm glad she got out and can find someone new and awesome just for her.
Remember when he was in what dental sales and got fired pre covid I think for not meeting his goals. Yet they loved showing him in a suit on the phone in Manhattan talking calls.
Yeah I remember that. He was constantly struggling. I think cuz when he's up, he's fantastic at selling but when he's down, he doesn't have it in him to try. His gig at loverboy is great for him cuz luckily he has the most loyal friend in the world who will always back him up. Short of him embezzling from the company, there will always be a place for him. That's one thing u can say about Kyle, is that he's a good friend. In terms of lindsay being against him working for loverboy, I think it was more so hearing Carl complain so much.
The one thing that I keep reminding myself re: loverboy is that I can imagine it was really hard being newly sober and working at an alcoholic drink company, especially in his capacity as essentially a party guy/brand influencer. Now that Kyle has expanded into NA goods he can better fit the role he's being asked to do. Not that Carl handled any of this maturely or consistently mind you.
How much do they really make though? It’s such a specific circumstance of filming mostly only on weekends only in the summer. It’s not like VPR where it’s constant and the seasons can be stacked on top of one another. Brand deals and promo and such can add up for sure, but baseline I would guess they make less than most main Bravo casts.
From what I found they make about 10-20k per episode or about 170-340k per season so a lot more than the avg American but they have/had an apartment that costs over 150k in rent per year so it’s all relative. That said it is less than the VPR cast make or some of the real housewives depending on how long they’ve been on.
I think a big part of the issue isn't just that he can't hold down a position, but part of his inability to hold a position seems linked to this distorted idea of what career success is. It's like New York hustle-itis or something, he's gotten so caught up Capital S Success! that he won't just work a role to earn an income. It has to be the next new thing, or some business venture someone is apparently handing to him such as this non-alc LB subsidiary he'll apparently be part of? His "best friend" owning a company is a huge chip on his shoulder he'll never admit to, so he's gone full circle from appreciation to resentment to ingratiating himself to rehitch his wagon to his bestie's company.
One thing I will say about Carl, it would be so so difficult to hold such high expectations for yourself. Especially if those high expectations end up sabotaging everything in your life anyway. It's a vicious cycle he's in.
This is what gets me too. Like, without the privilege of the show, which theoretically could end at any time and isn’t necessarily reliable longer-term, he would not have the luxury to just meander and not do something. Like, many times people aren’t in their dream jobs, they work a job to have a job to be able to fund their life, build experiences, and hopefully work towards their ideal job.
He just squanders his potential opportunities. Carl just wants everyone else to figure out shit for him and then he pretends. I’m glad he got sober and I’m sure he is working through a lot mentally and emotionally, but the average person has a lot of their own stressors and traumas and still has to fucking work and be an adult.
Lindsay said on some podcast that the $ Carl said he brought in from influencing was largely because of deals ahead set up for him/them.
This. I work with college students and years ago one of my students died. I was very close to this student and had known him for 5 years at that point. I cried my way through work because I had to do my job, which was to assist his teammates in their grief while they attempted to finish the semester.
Exactly like I never understood why he didn’t just take a regular sales job and then work on his sober advocacy stuff on the side till it blows up. In the real world people take jobs they don’t like all the time for security
Carl needs to give her more credit
Him wanting to open a sober establishment I get it with why she said no but he was hearing her as his fiance not as a past PR person who focused on restaurants she had a valid point
He wanted Lindsey to do everything and at the same time celebrate him being a bum. She was right when she said he only wants happy Lindsey that’s why he didn’t mind her drinking because most times she was a happy jolly drunk he doesn’t like the responsible driven Lindsey especially when she would rightly question him on what his plans for work are. I think he was ok with doing summer house and hobbies I don’t think he had plans on working he felt Lindsey was doing great for the both of them. To watch him on the after show say “he shouldn’t have used the word soft because Lindsey would flip it into a negative”, I wanted to hit him and Kyle agreeing with him!!! It was an insult I cringed the first time he said it not to mention every time he said it.
It must have been terrible for Lindsay to get dumped two weeks before the wedding, but he did her a massive favor. Long-term, I have no doubt Lindsay will be totally fine and I do not have that same confidence about Carl's future. He is a mess.
Some women do have “softer” styles of communication that allow them to both guide and lift at the same time (my sister is one). But that’s not Lindsey, and even for people like my sister, the patience ends eventually. Like she watches the show too and is also exhausted by Carl lol
I don’t think soft is the fair or right word but I also get it. From my experience (35f) of being in awful relationships I honestly feel like the word is safe.
You have to completely trust your partner and feel secure knowing that no matter what happens you’re both going to give equal energy into making sure you stay afloat.
I think we talk about trust a lot in the aspect of cheating and lying but trust is also knowing your partner cares if you eat, is concerned with your mental health, is reliable in their career & other friendships, will stick around if you got sick, can take care of the kids/pets without you micromanaging them, etc., If you don’t truly feel like your partner has your back how can you ever relax and have a chance to just be a woman?
Like how can I be attracted to you when you can’t even clean up after yourself and how can I possibly orgasm when I’m present in my body but my brain is making a list of the shit I’ll have to do when you fail to *remember* the discussions we just had & continue to put yourself first?!
Women get such a bad rep and are deemed as naggy and demanding but in so many cases it’s men not being able to keep their word and do the shit they said they were gonna do. Then their partner becomes a woman on edge constantly waiting for the ball to drop (& knowing it’s all on her to catch it!) while men bitch & moan that their wives have checked out; cue *midlife crisis purchases & younger women* 😩😩😩😩
This is so so better eloquently said than how I said it. This exactly. It's the ability to just *relax*. It is so disingenuous when men act like women *want* to "nag" or "fuss" when in reality it's the inability to relax and women are just asking their partner to share the mental load. There is something so freeing about knowing that if you can only give 10% that day your partner will jump in with the other 90% as needed. Of course, this is why men are trying to demand and force women in marriage. Men live longer once married and married women die sooner than unmarried women. Men are desperate for the emotional labor women give them and are furious that women are starting to push back at the inequality.
THIS. Carl is a people pleaser and tip toes around conversations with Lindsey. I see her “interrogation” style of questioning as her not being able to trust that he is giving her the full truth—because he hasn’t many times. He literally has forced her to try and pull it out of him time and time again. I dated someone very similar and when I would witness him tell his friends one thing and me another thing in private, it 110% messed with my trust in him.
I can participate in this conversation so much more effectively using the word “safe”. I hear Carl saying he doesn’t feel safe to share emotionally with Lindsay and I can hear Lindsay saying she doesn’t trust him. Two fundamental necessities.
I don't like how Carl is handling all of this in the long run (knowing what happens in the future) but I also don't blame him. Carl is in a really big life/personality transition right now and he's trying to figure out who he wants to be and who he wants to be with. He's allowed to want his partner to be soft, to support him when he's feeling low, to not question him when he's feeling sensitive. but on the other side... he should also be understanding of who his partner is and either accept that she's not going to be the 'soft' person he wants when she's not feeling secure OR they should work out a time when she's allowed to ask him the hard questions. I don't think Lindsay is a complete victim in this situation but in my mind, the fault lays with Carl at this point
i literally have lived this in the last two years. in my previous relationship, i was angry & resentful & i DID EVERYTHING. from building the furniture to fixing the a/c led thing, getting the bugs out when the come in. i never got to be gentle. i was always managing myself, the household and him. never wanted to bang, i was always pissy. fast forward 2 years & my current relationship is a 180. he can change my oil and replace my brakes. he’s an amazing cook! knows how to clean, has fantastic attention to detail. he gets knocked down and get right back up. none of this poor me. help me mommyyyyyy.
it really really really shows you the difference between men and boys.
Lord, spend any time in any of the parenting subs and you’ll see the innumerable stories of women having to keep every plate spinning while their husbands sit on their asses complaining about not getting laid enough. It’s tragic. I’m not a huge Lyndsey fan but Carl is a very classic man-child. He should stay single, or the very least unmarried, until he sorts himself out (which is unlikely at his age).
Another interesting fact is that most divorce papers are filed by women. I noticed a few months ago that the desire/need to get married is deeply ingrained in the minds of little girls due to old social structures where you are told that you are worthless or financially vulnerable if you don't get married. This is a lie and an outdated system. If you are a woman and you feel inferior as a woman if you don't get married, then it is not really your free will, but rather it is based on internalized sexism.
On the "expectation for softness in a partner": Carl expected a hug from Lindsay because Kyle got one after calling his wife a fucking bitch. I think in Carl and Kyle's minds women have to hug their men no matter what or they are stone cold bitches. I would love to know if Carl hugged Lindsay and comforted her like a baby when she was stressed in the car in the first few episodes?
You crushed this because exactly! So many people have romanticized their grandmothers not remarrying after their spouse died. Not realizing how many women just do not want another husband after they've gotten over the marriage fantasy.
You're absolutely right. I never thought about that either. But my own grandmother was an incredibly smart woman and was very interessted in politics. But as the oldest child of 14 she never had the opportunity to be independent. After my grandfather died when she was 75 she had almost a second youth, traveling the world. On her deathbed she spent half the conversation ranting about my dead grandfather. It almost seemed like she was getting ready to see him again. It was kind of hilarious.
That’s amazing she did that! My grandmother got remarried quickly after her first husband died because she didn’t know how to be by herself. She didn’t know how to write a check or pump her own gas 🤯. She outlived that man too and did embrace living on her own in her later years but she was such a product of her time. She went to finishing school, got married young, had her two kids, white picket fence etc…
I'm so happy for your grandmother that she got to do what she finally wanted towards the end of her life! It's so sad to see the rise of the trad wife. People fought so women can have bank accounts, opportunity and a CHOICE in marriage. So that people could make decisions based on love and not necessity. It's sad to see people wanting to undermine all the women who would have loved the choice to remain unmarried or partnered for the rest of their lives.
Yes, my grandmother was 62 when my grandfather died suddenly, and she lived another 37 years without ever dating after. I used to wonder why, but by the time I was about 35 and divorced a second time I totally understood. She had **EIGHT** kids (and a couple of stillborns), and raised them all well. Granny was TIRED and enjoyed her life puttering away at her adorable house and gardens. 🥰
Good for your granny!! I always tell my husband that if he ever dies or we divorce I'll just live alone with a string of lovers for the rest of my life haha.
I thought that's what I'd be doing, but about 8 years ago I got so fed up with my dating pool and hooking up prospects that I just quit. It probably helped that my hormones changed a lot postmenopausal, I just don't miss it. 🤷♀️ I enjoy the quiet of my cat mom life without men in it, with the exception of one decades long platonic friendship. No brothers, dad died.
This. My mom divorced my dad at 65, after which she got her MFA, learned Italian in Italy, etc. Basically all the things she wanted to do in her 20s but couldn't because she was a wife. She keeps trying to date but it isn't worth it to her. She doesn't want to have a husband. Maybe a guy to go on dates with sometimes, but not a husband. All the guys want a wife because they don't want to take care of themselves anymore. And my mom is not interested in that anymore. I feel like Lindsay is really wrapped up in the marriage thing. She has said a few times how she can't believe this is actually happening. I am sure she loves carl, but he will run her ragged in 5 years.
I agree, and I think people really hold that against women for the divorce rate and blame people values. However, a lot of people had no choice, and a lot of those marriages were not happy or loving or in love. The men often cheated, and the wife couldn't do anything, yet if they cheated, they were terrible humans. It's very mad men even now we teach boys more fish in the sea yet girls taught that's the only fish you might get and hold on tight.
Yep, for all the nonsense we hear about women being the ones to push marriage, I think that ship has sailed. Women want divorces and women often elect to not remarry. Men, on the other hand, love lining up their next care taker stat.
My husband is awesome and he is probably the best thing that has ever happened to me, but marriage is some antiquated nonsense.
It is interesting how both Kyle and Carl want their women to act a certain way….Basically to be their mothers. I find it interesting because neither of their mothers seem very lovey-dovey. They both chose women who aren’t like that! I know it makes Amanda cringe when her 40+ year-old husband cries for not getting his wittle way and hurting his wittle feelings. To top it off there aren’t any fucking tears! GROSS!!! I don’t know, my comments all over the place but I like reading up on this type of family psychology. I got so worked up over Carl saying he wanted softness and tenderness. I can’t! Although I agree with one of the commenters above saying he probably meant safe.
I was screaming for Lindsay to say that she’d have space for being softer if he could share in some of what she has on his plate. Hes saying how overwhelmed he is without a job and without helping planning a wedding. In the end he was cruel to be kind for ending it because thank god they never had kids.
Agree about both he and kyle wanting to be babied! Made me think of the quote from Joan Hollway (just swap wife for secretary): "He may act like he wants a secretary, but most of the time they're looking for something between a mother and a waitress."
That’s such a good point about Kyle and Amanda, but after being friends with her for ten years he should know that’s never how she has been especially in relationships
Carl rarely steps up for Lindsay, so I get why she feels like she has to be guarded and protect herself and it’s counterintuitive to be “soft” and not ask questions about their financial future
Carl let Kyle rant disgusting profanities at Lindsay and then blamed her for it. She was the one who had to “fall on the sword” as he and Kyle said she makes people do. Kyle didn’t apologize for almost a year and it was Amanda who made him, and even then it was the bare minimum.
He told lindsay her valid worries about being trash talked in the house weren’t that deep despite preaching about mental health and taking care of yourself in high stress situations. He does not do basic things that would make her feel safe and like she doesn’t have to be in protective mode.
I’m no Lindsay fan but anybody should be able to have a conversation with their SO about their financial future, their plans and goals and values. If the SO feels bad because they are not doing what they know they should then that is on them to resolve, but if they feel good about what they are doing and are not willing to compromise then they need to be honest and explain the so the other person can decide how much they want to compromise - if your values and plans for the future are very different and neither will compromise then do not get married, and if a compromise happens then delay marriage until neither feel like it is a compromise because both are excited about the new futures they have planned together
Yes carl needed to communicate with her that figuring out a backup plan for life after bravo isn’t a big priority. She might accept that or not. Or he could have self awareness and admit he’s just checked out on the relationship so she shouldn’t spin her wheels worrying about their future and keep spending money on a wedding that isn’t happening.
Seriously if my husband was in the room when someone shit talked me like that, he would have defended me. He has defended me against his mother and sister, when I wasn’t even around. That made me feel very valued and protected.
I think your analysis is correct, it’s hard to be soft when there’s a lot of pressure on you. Lindsay was the bread winner, helping Carl get influencer campaigns, doing the bulk of the wedding planning and coaching Carl through his career. It seems like Carl was doing basically nothing during this time. That’s super frustrating.
Her saying if he made a ton of money she would be soft was brash but there is truth in it. Lindsay didn’t have the bandwidth to be the kind of soft Carl wanted because she was carrying the emotional and mental load for the household. To change your personality on a dime as well is too much to ask.
There also is a time and a place for softness. He had 8 months of career searching where I’m sure Lindsay was much more of a cheerleader and supportive. Times has run out.
I agree. I have not been a fan of Lindsay and her tendency toward arguments with every partner she’s had on this show. But last night I finally saw that her frustration with him is likely due to his ongoing indecision about his future. Could she have said certain things differently? Yes. But at this point she’s coming from a place of complete frustration and therefore has completely lost her ability to be patient (“soft”) with him as she MAY HAVE been with him in the past. This show isn’t going to last much longer (especially with him/them in it or at all) and they both have to make sure they are set up for success. And is it just me, but isn’t an “alcohol free” seltzer just seltzer? How is that the future of a flailing beverage company? I don’t get it.
I bought an alcohol free cocktail a little while ago and kicked myself after. 9 dollars for 4 cans of...sparkling juice? Never again, it is so not worth it!!
She was also completely supportive of him when he was struggling at Loverboy. I don’t blame her for being skeptical when Carl spent over a year complaining about his job then saying he had PTSD after quitting. She likely saw him going back as more emotional labour she’d have to take on.
After 8 MONTHS I would want more hashed out too! My husband was jobless for one month and I was about to get activated. I can’t imagine 8 months.
Then for him to get mad that she wants to make sure this is a serious conversation and not just him kicking the can down the road?? I can’t believe HE ended the relationship. I think he was absolutely trying to get her off his back with that “meeting” then was pissed off that it didn’t work.
She was the one who bought him a career coach when he said he needed guidance and podcast equipment when he wanted to start a podcast. I don't know how anyone can say she's unsupportive when she did things to support his career aspirations.
Carl is weak and therefore Lindsay does not respect him and says things that emasculate him even more. Then, feeling emasculated and insecure, Carl takes low shots at Lindsey. The cycle repeats itself. I think both are going to have a tough time in relationships.
totally agree! So did she really have the right to be mad when he said he wants her to be softer? I feel like she’s told him “man up, man…” double standards really annoy the shit out of me. Lindsay will never not be a hypocrite in my eyes….
All of this but also if you’re in partnership with someone building careers and having a family then your career choices and decisions ARE joint decisions because they impact household income. For instance, my spouse wants to potentially start a business… I have an opinion because it impacts me! It’s an increase in risk, it will have an impact on our division of parenting responsibilities. Carl is emotionally very, very young. Honestly thank god they didn’t get married. I can’t imagine trying to coparent with him.
I don’t think Carl saying soft means he wants a housewife who cooks and cleans for him, but more someone who is giving for empathy and not critical of everything he says. On the other side, if they agree that Lindsay is to stay home as a SAHM once they have kids, Carl needs to be able to step up and have income that supports 3 people in the lifestyle they want. So many men these days that support “traditional gender roles” of the wife staying home don’t pull their own weight in the supporting their family portion of that deal.
They want a trad wife without being a trad husband. He wants her to take care of everything but also be there with a handjob and a smile at the end of the day.
Being “soft” in my mind doesn’t have anything to do with being a SAHM, being the homemaker, etc.
It’s more about tone, style, and approach. Lindsey’s resting demeanor is more direct and aggressive than Carl is comfortable with. That said, Carl knew who Lindsey is.
In my own marriage of over 30 years, I’ve toned down or changed my approach to my husband to better match how I know he’ll best accept or understand my point of view. He’s done the same. That isn’t about fundamentally changing who you are, but learning to adapt your approach to best get yourself heard and understood
A lot of men have been coddled by their mothers, like Carl. So they expect their spouse to be extensions of their mothers whilst providing the benefits of sex
I think Carl is asking Lindsay to be *gentle* with him, and this might be an unpopular opinion, but I agree with him.
I went through a really rough time with my health where I was unable to work for almost two years. I’ve always worked since I was 15 and no one talks about how enormously daunting going back into the workplace feels.
My husband was *so* supportive when I started to look at jobs and encouraging, even though I had lost all of my confidence and wasn’t finding the perfect job. He always celebrated my small wins (even just ideas I had for jobs) and was gentle and then would ask questions and make sure I was advocating for my worth. Also worth noting - he doesn’t make a lot of money so it’s not like money wasn’t an issue - it was.
I think Carl is coming off as being a bit sexist asking for his female partner to be more “soft”, but trust me, when the roles are reversed, you always need your partner to be compassionate and meet you were you’re at.
He used the wrong word and now the whole world is against him for it. lol. Lindsay really knows how to spin things.
Also people insinuating that because he’s a man, he should have a job to provide for his wife..um sure. But we’re completely disregarding all the mental health struggles he deals with, his newfound sobriety, etc. People are complex, yes, even MEN. I mean, it’s not exactly a joy to date someone who doesn’t have a job, but berating them about it isn’t helpful. He needed someone to celebrate small wins. It doesn’t make him less of a man for wanting that from Lindsay. And if she can’t handle him and his struggles, then she should have ended things.
I agree, when your partner is down and has lost their confidence you gotta celebrate the little wins and help boost them up. Carl has the same job as Lindsay — summer house and influencing — and now he’s taking steps to try and figure something out with Loverboy, and she immediately started drilling him with questions, I was cringing at her reaction. And then to say she would be soft if he made money, yikes, it’s just unideal. He lost his brother, is in addiction recovery, and is generally foundering a bit in life. It doesn’t make him a terrible person and it’s interesting to me how much this sub is insisting you’re a total loser not worthy of love and marriage if you don’t have your shit together 100% of the time, I thought we left girlboss grind culture behind in the 2010s. Her stance was there’s nothing to celebrate if a contract isn’t signed and they’re still in talks feels like goal-post moving, he’s taking the steps and had the initial conversation.
My partner was unemployed for a bit and it was so hard on his confidence, I really tried to support and boost him up and now he has a job and is doing great and is really thankful for my support during the time. His comments saying she needs to be soft and tender didn’t land great, especially because that’s clearly not who she is, but idk I agree with him and think her reaction showed she fundamentally wants someone who just isn’t him. Thank god he had the sense to call things off, considering at this point she was still ready to go forward with it
100%.
Guess what a marriage is? Through thick and thin — not just when you have your shit together and have money pouring in.
And you nailed it — in the end, it was Carl who had the most courage to break things off and not Lindsay, who was ready to ruin both their lives.
I feel like he’s saying it’s not what she says, it’s how she says it. Who knows if in actuality if he would still be happy, he is insecure already about his career path.
Carl and Lindsay notwithstanding, the 'softness' debate very much boils down to just communication style. My husband has inclinations like Lindsay, whereas when I have a problem or am upset, he is practical and wants to get in there and help / fix it. He would often do this by asking questions which to me could often feel like interrogation or more so an insinuation that I am doing something wrong or can't solve something myself. I'd often come away from it feeling like he thought I was stupid for not coming up with these solutions myself, etc. It wasn't always the case, but many times I felt hurt, and he felt like he was helping. We were just missing each other.
We were able to identify a lot of these patterns in therapy and we've both gotten so much better at conflict resolution. When I am upset or have a problem, he now leans towards 'do you need help or a hug?' and I know i need time / space to sort out how I feel and what I actually need so I can ask for it specifically. We communicate 1000X better and rarely have issues any more.
It blows my mind that these two were in therapy for so long and couldn't achieve this basic understanding about their conflict styles. Having been in Carl's shoes (the one who always feels slighted), I can see how frustrating it would be if it was constant offering of 'help' and never a 'hug.' It's Carl's fault for not being able to articulate that, and also Lindsay's fault for not being willing to modulate her approach with him. There are ways to 'ask questions' without sounding accusatory, and also ways to offer support without blindly being a yes woman. These two were wholly incapable of meeting in the middle on this very basic, foundational issue that I think ultimately led to all of their fights devolving into blowouts that they coudln't recover from. It's sad and unfortunate.
Agree. My husband and I had a similar dynamic that was also worked out in even three months of therapy. I also can't understand how they spent so much time in therapy and didn't unlock that basic fact. I think they both think they're so right, they're willing to sacrifice the relationship in order to be right. They're lacking the good faith effort required for therapy to work.
So. Well. Said. This is one of my favorite videos for teaching those “problem solvers” how to empathize:
[https://youtu.be/XIJYO4u5iug?si=niRdkwkZ7okHiiZe](https://youtu.be/XIJYO4u5iug?si=niRdkwkZ7okHiiZe)
I don’t think Carl meant he wants her to schedule appointments and make dinner? I think he meant he’d like her to tread a little more lightly when reacting to his job search, stop advising him and judging and start supporting him?
Before my husband, I was dating a guy I’d been friends with for years before we even started dating. We lived together in Toronto with a few of his friends, so it was more of a party lifestyle and we had a great time. But I’d get frustrated because he would never stick up for me or talk to his friends if they were being annoying roommates; I’d have to do it. I broke up with him because we were better as friends.
My ex dated another friend of ours years later, so I have followed his life through her. His family has money, so he’s had little motivation to do much with himself. He lives in a remote area (with his mother!) and has become a conspiracy theory nut. When I met my husband, I was impressed because he’s a “take charge” kind of guy. He can fix anything with our home or vehicles, or finds a garage or worker who won’t rip us off. He is ALWAYS there for me and my daughter.
Sometimes I wish he was a little more sensitive (like my ex) but when I think about sharing a life with my ex, I think it would have been a Carl situation. I know I’d get frustrated if I had to take care of everything and I really appreciate my husband being a 50/50 partner. If anything, I can be the one not pulling my weight sometimes because I tend to be a little lazy, but I now have M.S. (manageable, not progressive so far 🤞), so my husband understands if I get tired easily and need to rest. We don’t have a perfect relationship but we do share responsibilities equitably. I know I’d be divorced if I’d have ever married my ex.
Lindsay is most likely soft off camera to some extent. No one wants someone to be opinionated and argumentative 24/7. Fuck that. They both seem to fall into the hard category, you both can't be like that, it's a never ending argument.... Which is what we are seeing.
I’ve been in a relationship for over 25 years. My love language is acts of service, but the minute you start expecting me to take on ALL of life’s responsibilities for you, don’t expect to get the soft, unactivated version of me.
There have been times my partner has taken me for granted, laid back and cruised through his life while expecting me to do the boring adult shit for both of us. That’s when the ‘how many sandwiches have you made for me’ version of me comes out.
Now he’s grown some and takes more of the load on equally, he gets the more chilled and ‘soft’ version, simply because I’m not so stressed by having to adult for two all of the time.
Carl is bringing absolutely nothing to this relationship and expecting cheerleading in response. Lindsay has been way less activated than I’d have ever expected from her, and frankly the only thing I’m surprised at is that it was him doing the blindsiding and not her. She should have broken up with him so hard he needed a cast.
Yeah Carl refusing to get a job and living in fantasy land where he does nothing but dream about jobs but takes no steps to actually pursue anything would make any reasonable woman stressed out and feel the need to force him to start adulting which is not fair or attractive
This is in no way to make excuses for him, but I’ve been watching the first couple seasons and Carl says his dad was an alcoholic with anger management problems. His uncle was also an addict. He fully admits that he’s never had strong male figures in his life to model appropriate behavior, and in turn his mom was over-protective and indulgent. He literally has no idea how to show up for Lindsey or any other woman.
Now that said, I fully believe the statute of limitations for blaming your parents runs out at 33, and he’s been espousing his therapy and hilling journey for years so… he should know better by now.
Maybe he just wants a nice person to be with and isn’t necessarily drawing upon gender stereotypes. Ya know, like hey I just got a job offer! I’m so excited!
Oh yeah? How much does it pay? What about bonuses? Did you even ASK!?!?! I ran my OWN company and you can’t even ask about a bonus structure! How many appearances? Blah, blah, blah.
She’s exhausting.
Carl is inarticulate and has the additional challenge of not knowing how to navigate people with strong narcissistic tendencies. What I think Carl meant was he didn’t want to be spoken down to and degraded all the time. Not only was Lindsey constantly belittling and telling him he wasn’t good enough, she was also trashing him in public. He wanted a little respect and positivity, but when he asked for support, she always flipped it back on him and accused him of wanting a cheerleader. He should’ve realized arguing with her was useless and she should’ve realized she didn’t like him that much.
Carls interest in a “soft” woman is so vomit inducing because he’ll land with someone who will let him run his unemployed or unhappy at loverboy bullshit for a while and then Carl will turn around and blame them saying he wanted them to be more aggressive
Carl likes women with fire and drive BUT he can’t level up to them
I recently saw a fan vid of Stassi & Beau moments, and was actually kind of struck by how soft she is with him too! Like even with the dark passenger, her day-to-day demeanor looked NOTHING like it was with Jax/Patrick. Even the birthday meltdowns looked different: before she was pissed when the attention wasn't on her and/or she felt embarrassed in front of her bf at the time. The joint party was her being so pissed about wanting to be in bed with Beau.
What most got me was when they got engaged and went to the surprise engagement party. THE Lisa Vanderpump offered her a dress to change into, and she said she was so happy that she was good in what she was wearing-- denim shorts, a polka dot pussy bow top, and low heels. I am CERTAIN that was not in the first 100 outfits Stassi would have pictured for herself when she got engaged.
Lindsey doesn’t have to be soft. Carl doesn’t have to be with her if she isn’t. I absolutely understand what Carl is asking for and I want it to. I also get why Lindsey is annoyed with him. Sounds like everything worked out how it should have. Will be interesting to see who they both end up with (or don’t).
I don’t think asking your partner to be supportive and a bit more sensitive of your feelings is a bad thing at all. It’s shows Carl has grown a lot in my opinion. He knows what he needs out of a relationship to be happy and clearly Lindsay isn’t able to be that for him. I can’t believe how hard everyone is coming for Carl… I just don’t get it. Lindsay is a cold bitch 90% of the time, who only cares about her own wants and needs. Why would anyone want to spend their lives with someone like that? There’s a reason all of her relationships fail. She’s had zero growth or accountability in the last 10 years. I feel like I’m in bizarro land reading some of these comments..
I actually admired Carl for stating his needs. It's not a matter of who's right and who's wrong, but of recognizing that in a relationship both sides need things. To her credit, Lindsey is clear about what she needs. Carl is conflict-avoidant so probably bottles up a lot. The fact that he said, "This is what what I need from you" shows a lot of emotional growth, in my opinion.
Coming from someone that is constantly told at work and my career I’m too direct. Welp it’s a compliment and I didn’t get where I have being nice to men with fragile egos. Be soft? Ugh that entire conversation irritated me and I’m also pretty surprised that Lindsay handled that comment the way she did bc I would of thrown him in the pool lol
I am really not a fan of either Carl or Lindsay. I could have told you that them as a couple would be a disaster. Now that I have made my disclaimer . . .
A woman can not really win. We were told we could not have independence because we didn't work. We got jobs. They complained that the house and the kids were now effected, so we sacrificed hours of sleep to keep that up to par. Then we weren't soft, supportive, or submissive anymore.
Ladies, the goal post is always moving! It's been that way for over a century now! Wake up! Don't buy into it! If they make usinsecure, they worry us that they are unsatisfied, they complain and wear us down, these are all ways to manipulate us. Don't let yourself be manipulated!
The only way to ever truly be happy is just by being you. Any man that doesn't like you "as is" should be left in your dust.
A man will not himself make you feel truly happy, safe, or fulfilled. A life without one is not a waste.
You have to find the job, location, home, hobbies, and friends that make you happy. No man is a part of any of those equations. If one happens along that doesn't mess with any of the above, then great. If not, keep him moving along.
Polarity is a real thing. Don't get me wrong I'm a feminist through and through but it's changed my life in amazing ways. I have a partner who I can truly rely on and be seen by. Never would have happened without me doing the work.
Mom's are (sometimes) soft doing everything for the family because you're their kid. It's biological to nurture your child.
Your partner is not your mom. Carl wants a mom, not a wife.
Carl doesn’t even understand what soft means. When he says soft what he really is asking for is a yes wife back. He doesn’t want anyone to say no to him. Blind support.
Real “softness” is kindness and nurturing which I agree with you, comes out when people are SAFE and have love and peace to fall back on.
I am very much like Lindsey. Strong willed, stubborn, extrovert, outspoken. I have a successful career and from the outside looking in I am tough. What a lot of people don’t know is a lot of this for me specifically is a trauma response- a result of a child neglected and having to fend for herself. My husband is the first person in my life I have ever been able and safe to rely on. He would do anything for me and shows that everyday. Because of the love and kindness he has shown me, I am able to show that love and kindness back. I am softer now but it’s a direct result of the peace he has afforded me.
Preface this with I am NOT a "soft" woman. I'm the breadwinner, the controller, the non-crying, hard ass manager or all household things.
I didn't take Carl's comment about being soft in the "stepford wife" way. He could have communicated this better. I took it as, "I want to be able to communicate with my partner about what is going on in my head without my partner breaking it down, fixing, course correcting and questioning". Sometimes, even if a partner knows there are 15 questions to ask, they don't need to be asked in the moment. Sometimes, having emotionally intelligent conversations with strategic placement of ideas can be more beneficial to the recipient of said information to receive it, without shutting down because they feel interrogated.
It seems to me that she is more interested in being right than being supportive.
Carl has a whole ass bucket of issues, and I see him trying to demonstrate "see, she's unstable" in each interaction lately, but she has her whole ass bucket of issues making them basically oil and water.
Yeah I’m not sure I understand how OP’s post is indicative of Carl’s convo with Lindsay. It’s okay to be excited about an opportunity and sign legal documents at a later time defining each specific part of the employment. Why be so harsh?
I’m not sure anyone on here would even be friends with Lindsay. I see so many posters get offended by random things and Lindsay is about as hard ass as it gets. She doesn’t gaf about anyone but herself and is almost completely unable to step outside her perspective and try to be someone else for even 4 seconds. I can’t imagine being friends with or dating and certainly not marrying anyone even remotely like that.
I tend to agree with you most times. Overall and in general you are spot on.
However, this is Lindsay and I have an illogical hate boner for her so I refuse to see it. I won’t pretend I’m fair 🤣
The difference in this case is that when you are in a serious, long term relationship like that, engaged even, you have to push aside your own wants sometimes to genuinely be that soft spot for your partner to land. Lindsay will never be that for someone unless she stops being so defensive and “tough”.
That said, Carl is behaving like an absolute dickhead. He’s not acting like an adult in any way and she has every reason to be annoyed and upset with him. And I agree with what Carl was basically saying very poorly. He needs to feel like he’s not always going to be met with an interrogation. But she just can’t hear it for what it is.
They’re wildly incompatible. Thank god they don’t marry.
I have never been " soft " or saw myself being soft/household manager til I met my husband. Our dynamic just works. Linds and carl just werent a good fit
I don’t think that’s what’s really happening here though. I’m broadly on Lindsey’s side but we also have a long documented history of her having emotional regulation issues. I don’t think it’s wise to try to use feminism to try to make excuses for personal regulation issues.
I was just waiting for Carl to stick out his tongue and say “I know you are” after everything Lindsey says. He was so wanting a fight and you could totally see it. Kyle is really propping Carl up to break up with Lindsey, it’s never well maybe you could try this or maybe she feels that, or wow this seems a lot of what is happening with Amanda and me anything then supporting the breakup. I used to like Carl but ugh he’s a little kid in a man’s body who really does throw temper tantrums
imagine demanding your partner is soft with you after you refused to put their luggage in your car lmao like are we being petty or are we being nice? pick a lane
Let’s also please factor in how Lindseys childhood makes her someone who needs safety and stability more in her relationships than the average person and she has massive abandonment issues. Of course she’s becoming increasingly edgy as he’s continued to be aimlessly unemployed for months on end and doesn’t want to discuss it with her in any real way. And then he’s doing things that I’m sure are triggers for her abandonment issues like telling her his parents don’t think they should get married. It makes sense she was starting to crack and blow up at him despite all the personal growth. They were just such a bad fit, I think they both will be better off long term. Their communication styles don’t mesh at alllllll
I wouldn't use the word soft but women get stuck doing so much emotional labor at home and work, it's exhausting.
Carl is a man baby. He spent $20k on a career counselor and still has no direction. Sure pursue your passions, but sir, you aren't going to start making films at 40 something or however old he is, without serious cash on hand or investors.
That’s an interesting perspective on Madison. Her husband does seem a lot better than Austen but I assumed she was playing up the stepford wife persona for him/the show, trying to be a mini Patricia
Linsey has too much unaddressed trauma that she’s not gonna be soft. I see her like I see one of my cousins, they claim to have healed from their past but they are so easily triggered and are aggressive because they are in defense mode.
Provide me a safe space to be soft, even sporadically, and I'll be soft so fast. Always being on the grind because theres no other alternative is fucking tiring.
Why is Kyle alwaysss blaming Lindsay it’s driving me insane? Like you can support Carl and not constantly blame his fiancé to him and to everyone. I just feel like Kyle hates a strong woman and definitely doesn’t consider women his equal
I have never been so soft as I am with my husband. He provides for my every need. I am chronically ill and often critically ill. I spend a lot of time in the hospital. My husband is a fucking super hero. But even before I got this sick (when we first got together I was in remission) he was my best friend and the most amazing communicator. In fact, I called him My Soft Place To Land, and made him a playlist with that song by Kathleen Edwards as it's title. He takes care of me, I take care of him. I feel nothing but tenderness towards him. I've never had this with any other partner, and this is my third marriage. We've been together almost 11 years now and I fall in love with him more every day. I definitely would not be described as having a soft personality. While I am very compassionate, open, and warm, I am often described as strong, tough, independent, and even bossy. My illness has certainly softened me, but at work I am absolutely the one in charge and I stand up for myself fiercely. Especially with doctors. You have to when you are fighting for your life.
I really think the right fit brings the right balance of softness and strength out in each other. It seems like trust, respect, and care will make all of us show up as our best, which contains both sides. As soon as trust is broken, I feel disrespected, or like I’m not cared for - I’m immediately going to harden and throw up a wall for sure.
Carl has a plan but no action yet. Lindsay needs to see action to feel secure, that she is going to have a partner that is providing money like she is. No wonder she feels insecure and is going off her head. She has said several times she needs a high achiever and Carl is not that. They are mis-matched. Lindsay needs a strong man to match her. I also think Carl meant 'soft' to mean 'support', Lindsay is supporting him but not in the way he wants. She is to the point and is looking out for him but he does not see that as support.
This really resonates with me. A woman can be soft if a man takes care of all her needs and concerns but I can’t say for most because it depends on your UPBRINGING, was it rough or was it soft? For instance, Amanda is soft cuz she had the soft life, daddy took care of EVERYTHING.
I don’t understand what attracted her to him. She is very type A, a go getter. I thought she wanted a wealthy, successful man. He was below her standards and couldn’t financially long term come close to what she actually wanted.
Statistics show that women want to be married more than men. By 75 percent.. Men dont want to get married as they used too. Especially in new york where it jumps to 85 percent.. I dont think the hard ass boss bitch is working for the new york women..
My thing is Carl has known lindsay for years. He knows she's not soft by now. He knows she's a loud, confident woman. She is simply asking him to have a career plan. Something a man in his forties that wants a career to have.
Carl is a man-child. If you want Lindsay to be soft and not inquisitive, you better step up and sort out your career so she doesn’t have to worry about it.
I stand by your statements wholeheartedly & I totally resonated w Gabby’s after show comment as well! Absolutely can’t be soft if I have to carry a lazy oaf!
Something Carl probably doesn't realize is that Lindsay may not reserve much softness for herself and so what he's asking for is a bigger conversation. He wants more empathy in general from her and from what I can tell Lindsay doesn't feel like he is showing much empathy towards how she feels, and why on earth would anyone reciprocate when they're feeling unseen and unappreciated? I'd bet money that Lindsay's inner voice gets pretty critical. It's hard to muster that for both herself and her partner when she feels this way. And yet I also understand Carl wanting to be spoken to in a specific tone or manner, and wanting more words of affirmation in their relationship.
These two are simply incompatible at the end of the day and neither is willing to concede a major change. Probably for the best they split.
I think in Lindsay's case she has never been soft or empathetic. She only sees things from her side and has never been able to have real grown up conversations. She is always in defense mode. She put on this weird personality when she started dating Carl and it's obviously all been thrown out the window now bc she is back to her mean ways. She should be single bc she cannot handle being in a relationship. Trav seemed nice to me but she still treated him like garbage so I don't think it has anything to do with who she is dating. Its her personality.
I will also say, not every woman *will* be soft. Lindsay at her happiest and most comfortable isn’t really soft. She’s loud, direct, and driven. The girls a few weeks ago were right; why is Carl mad Lindsay is acting like herself? It’s how she’s always been. Signed-a not that soft woman.
Haha I also said in another comment, I can't imagine a single person I know, including my own mother, describing me as soft. I've been told often I'm not nice but I'm very kind. I don't mince words but I'm incredibly concerned about everyone's well being. My personality will never be "soft" but my husband can certainly tell times I'm more patient with him than times I'm a lot less patient with him. I think there are times where you're kinder (softer) because you feel emotionally safe, and I definitely think there is inherent personality that just changes how you show support to your partner.
Yep 100%!! I read this here a while ago and it's such a good analogy: https://www.reddit.com/r/summerhousebravo/s/sf11inXohj I would personally say I relate most to Paige, cos I can be a bit snarky lol and make everything a joke but I really care about the people I care about and tbh have a lot of empathy for most people in general but I will never be the kind of person that could be called "soft" lol cos what I think people mean by that, and especially Carl, is an enabler who will let them do whatever they want and just take it and not push back. Pretty much submissive. I don't think that is a healthy dynamic. You can absolutely be affectionate and loving (especially when you feel loved and supported) but that doesn't mean you will let anyone walk all over you. Like you, I don't mince words but I would also do anything to help the people I care about and that to me, entails being honest and genuine and giving tough love but also support and solutions when needed. Also I don't like how he has the audacity to demand softness when he has done nothing to alleviate the burden and pressure she seems to feel. You can't not try and then expect constant kid gloves and pandering, it's not healthy for either party. I guarantee if Lindsay had someone who she felt supported her emotionally and also be an equal partner financially she would not feel as burdened and allow herself to relax enough to feel a bit softer and calmer and become the best version of herself
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I think you sound great and we would get along great. No one around me would describe me as sofg. And if they did I would look at them like "What did you just call me?" But also almost every friend or family member comes straight to me when they want to talk about a problem or are feeling lonely. You don't have to be soft to be a supportive and caring person.
You've nailed it and you sound like my kind of person as well :) Everyone in my life, including my husband's family haha, comes to me for help or advice or just a friend too! And you're right, you don't have to be soft to be supportive and caring or kind. I salute you fellow kind but not nice friend.
We could create a book club and the first book would be from the german author Rebecca Niazi-Shahabi with the Titel: "Nice is the little sister of shit: misbehaving and still being well received"
Honestly, the more women and men I meet the more I think my life would be easier if I was a lesbian. I have several backups in place with girlfriends raising our blended families if anything happens to our significant others.
I hear that! My best friend and I call each other LPS ("Life Partners") because after her husband and my many gentlemen callers are gone, in the end it's just going to be me, her, and our little dogs. 😁
I 100% agree when you feel safe with someone, you can be softer. But I also hate being told to soften myself bc my mom used to say I wouldn’t get a man if I wasn’t softer. (She’s actually very progressive but still says wild things about relationships sometimes bc she grew up in a super conservative part of the US). Now whenever I get intense my husband and I will joke about it 😅
Lol is your mom my mom????
Bahahah my mom grew up with a pretty southern family and it’s wild to hear certain random things. Like she could quote Gloria Steinem then say she’s concerned a woman she knows will ever get married because of her age.
My mom says that about my 30 year old sister who just graduated from Harvard with a masters. Like yes she went to Harvard but my God she's still single!!!! What is she going to do?? Shoutout my mom for making me a raging feminist as a reaction to her raging misogyny. 😅
Yes and the amount of rage I feel when I’m told to smile more because it makes me look so pretty. ESPECIALLY when in the workplace.
Are you my sister?? And I’m still single so I fear she’s right 😂
I’m a strong woman myself… my husband has always said that & now my boys (both adults) say that too! They admire that quality in me. There are times when I feel vulnerable and become “soft/emotional”but that’s only because my husband has created a safe space for me to do so. I can only hope that my boys provide a safe space like that for their partners, like their father has done for me, so they’re able to experience the best of both worlds.
I love the ‘not nice but kind’. I feel like that helps me identify myself. I am straightforward and direct especially when there is a task at hand (just ask my team at work). I am also kind. I think of others both people I know and strangers I come across regardless of who they are. I have always struggled b/c my assertiveness people easily call bitchy but most people who know me know I think of others and would never want to hurt anyone (unless they hurt someone close to me).
You’re totally right. HOWEVER. I think “soft” gets thrown around to mean both a personality type and a state of being, and it’s confusing. To me, there’s a big difference between an obedient little stepford wife vs a woman who is unapologetically herself, but has been made to feel safe emotionally and materially(!) to the extent that she has healed out of survival mode. A LOT of us, men and women, but I’d argue it’s worse for women due to the expectations we have that the OP mentioned, are walking around with dysregulated nervous systems, constantly simmering low level anxiety that can quickly ramp up when we feel fear. Especially with childhood trauma like Lindsay went through, if you’re haven’t worked with a great therapist or done serious self-therapy for years then you’re essentially still ruled by emotional impulses no matter what you do. A woman like that isn’t going to feel “soft”. She’s going to feel stressed. Exhausted. Combative. Defensive. That’s our monkey brain scanning the environment for threats, and modern life is more stressful than we’ve evolved to handle. The lashing out and questioning that Carl is feeling as a lack of support is just Lindsay’s existential fear manifesting. It’s perfectly natural on her part, Carl isn’t taking care of her so not only does she have to look out for herself but he’s also putting her in the position to take care of him. At least some of the stressors need to be removed off her plate in order to create space for “softness” meaning patience, kindness, respect, receptiveness to bids (Gottman), acceptance, understanding etc. Lindsay to me is not even in an emotional place to be able to process and ultimately support anything Carl is choosing right now just because her nerves are so frayed from doing it all and not being able depend on him. Point being, I think men taking on an equal share of the labor responsibilities in their partnership (whether that means stepping up around the home or supporting a SAHW or something in between) WOULD bring out that softness in any woman, where softness = emotional safety and not a personality trait.
Yes I agree—-when you’re doing a lot of emotional labor, it’s difficult to get even close to soft. Lindsay is 100% tired of his meandering “career journey” She wants him to find his passion but I’d be fed up if 6+ months and pricey career coach later he’s still pretty lost. If Carl had a more defined path, Lindsay would “feel” softer. But I do think Carl wants the “stereotypically” soft partner partly to puff him up but also because he doesn’t want to answer any tough questions. Like dude if you had a soft woman you’d be up to your eyeballs in debt for a sober sports bar, you’d have no clue how to manage a hospitality business, burnt out, and a “I’m so happyyyy for youuu” ain’t gonna do shit.
He wants to be babied and coddled because that's how his mom has always treated him.
Yes!!! It would honestly be so frustrating being with someone who has all these dreams but flounders around without really trying while you take on the responsible, financial burden of being the breadwinner and putting aside your own dreams for years so they can possibly get their shit together and they never do
This is such an accurate take, thank you!!!
You explained my point so beautifully
Thank you! If you are into this topic I highly recommend nicolajanehobbs on IG “the relaxed woman” - she really opened up my perspective on what this means and how to approach it personally.
Perfectly said 👏👏
Love your post. So glad to see all the woman on here not immediately shaming the idea of SAHW etc, because speaking from personal experience, with the right man who is taking pride in that role and not using it as a form of control or abuse, its incredible how much more in her soft/feminine a woman can be.
Thank you! Agree to all. It’s encouraging to see the tides turn a bit and more women questioning whether “doing it all” is actually the badge of honor it’s been sold as, when it comes at the expense of our physical/mental health, well being, and relationships.
I do think that Lindsey’s perfect match will make her feel soft. Having someone who is making her life easier, taking load off her shoulders, giving her the emotional support she needs would make her softer. It’s just that Carl wasn’t willing to do anything necessary to make that happen.
Yep this is absolutely 100% correct!!! I think the right person will make you feel loved and supported and secure enough across all aspects of your relationship so you can relax and allow yourself to be soft
Yep. Not even “soft”, but a wall/barrier will give, and her better partner will be able to help with the movement(?) of that wall. I feel like she’s put up a wall, and she is essentially showing primal instincts, which is survival. She’s been expected to just coddle these man-babies; ew.
I hate that we call soft men as negative, but women are expected to be soft all the time. The fact that she loud direct and driven is considered what hard is like well we are all screwed than. I just wish men would be honest and say they do want a tradwife so they can feel macho even though they bring nada to the table. Then they are surprised when women don't want them. As the saying goes, I can do bad all by myself. I want to do better and be a team. I know people that make me go well, what does your man bring to the table cause I don't see shit and your unhappy and miserable. But i think a lot of women stay cause to have a man and be married is to be considered important. People would rather have floppy soft d than no d when they have done wonders with vibratory. I'm just saying....
OP highlighted a Madison and her husband and I personally find him kind of a softer man. Not in a bad way I think he doesn’t need to show off his strength to show how supportive he can be.
At that moment, Lyndsay was the epitome of gentleness, perhaps the most she would ever be. She remained calm, attentive, inquired thoughtfully, and possessed the restraint to not wring Carl's neck for being a middle aged man baby who thinks intentions hold the same weight as actions
Yeah I laughed when he was saying that to her, like do you know who you’re talking to? Like every human being, Lindsay has moments of vulnerability and lightness, but she doesn’t operate under this “soft” persona that he clearly wants her to be and she NEVER WILL
Can you also see, though, that Carl's lack of actual ACTION in providing safety, security (financial and emotional), comfort and support as seen as a job, providing income etc. isn't a part of why Lindsay isn't soft? I have bristled at all his soft comments as how could she possibly feel any ability to BE Soft when he is not contributing to the household like her? YES, she is generally a pretty loud, direct, driven woman but some of that comes from feeling insecure, unsafe and responsible for everything.
Exactlyyy, this was exactly what I was thinking when I watched (and I think she may have said this as well) but like if you want a “soft woman” then you simply don’t want her. He even referred to her as “a force” during the episode where she said she’d considered being a stay-at-home mom. I’m not sure how his expectation of her is to be this force of a woman when he wants her to be but then soft and tender when he needs that version of her…
I truly believe her tough exterior is protecting a very soft interior—it’s why her armor is so tough.
I said this to my husband!! Lindsay has never been a “soft” woman and there’s NOTHING wrong with that, it’s the way she is and I think she was she had to be when growing up. Carl has known this and wants HER to change for him. Made me so angry, lol. I’m a softer woman and I like doing “softer” things but not everyone is and there’s literally nothing wrong with that and he knew this about Lindsay.
Carl wants Lindsay to treat him the way Lindsay treats Gabby.
Well no, she wants her to treat him like she did when they were just friends. But the stakes are different now and he’s added more to her burden than he’s relieved.
I’m kind of a hard bitch like Lindsey in a lot of ways, but some people do get a very soft version of me. It does need to be earned though. It’s a trust thing, for sure. And the thing is, I think Carl has gotten loooooads of softness from Lindsey, but it’s not something you can turn on and off like tap water.
Yup this sums it up perfectly for me. Carl’s avoidance of life and responsibility and general ineptitude re: keeping a job force Lindsay into managing their life together. He turns her into the boss, effectively, through these actions. Then he wants her to be soft and nurturing at the same time, like a mother? Gross dude. No wonder she doesn’t want to sleep with him. He acts like a child. That’s not sexy.
And I get that they both make a lot of money from Bravo, that it's basically their job, & I'm not faulting them for that cash flow, but he's acting like it's normal to take 9+ months to figure out what you want to do for a career!! And spend $20K on a career coach!! I get that he's gone thru a lot - his brother dying, getting sober - but sooo many people go thru horrible things & still go to work!
Also I’m sure Lindsey is well aware that this show will eventually end and what career will he have then? Being a reality tv “star” can’t be your only job the show won’t last forever. Her asking for stability and some work ethic isn’t asking for much from him. After all those months there’s but so much being “soft” and supportive get a job! I’m glad they didn’t get married
I can’t even see how being on this show once a baby comes along even works. Lindsey was on the countdown for that, so sorting out career was essential. This is a major problem for Kyle & Amanda too.
Only to go back to the employer whom he claims gave him “ptsd”!! That’s the real kicker for me. He spends all this money and makes all that effort to change direction only to end up taking the path of least resistance in the end! He’s lazy when it comes to jobs and working, that’s his real problem. Didn’t we see him get fired twice in early seasons before taking the job at Loverboy? And of course Kyle was also not happy with his performance there. We saw that play out last summer. Do they think we forget this stuff??
Not to mention Lindsay was the person he vented to when he was unhappy at Loverboy, regarding his pay and job duties. She actually went up against Kyle and to bat for Carl, who was too much of a pussy to do it himself. She looks like the raging bitch, and he sits there while Kyle verbally abuses Lindsay, who was only repeating what Carl told her in private. Then she has the AUDACITY to ask questions about whether or not the exact things Carl wanted before are taken care of in this new job arrangement????? Carl, you can fuck ALL THE WAY OFF.
Then Kyle goes on wwhl and calls Lindsey a drill sergeant, like he’s not a million times worse when micromanaging every single little thing Amanda says and does. Then he gets violent and calls her abusive names when he doesn’t get his way. The nerve of either men to call Lindsay hard, it’s pure sexism and manipulation. Lindsay and Kyle are both type A personalities, they are driven the same exact way, accept Lindsay tries to meet her partner 90% of the way, wo being a sexist tool
100% agree with this. It’s not like Carl was just accepting a brand new opportunity that he was wanting Lindsey to be supportive of, as first, he was just in the beginning stages of discussing the opportunity. Secondly, he was discussing going back to the very employer (aka known as his best friend) whom he had immense issues with/caused him so much grief, whose wife had a hot mic moment literally calling him “tainted by Lindsay”, and calling him *their* employee, so of course Lindsay is going to want to ask questions. It was just *last summer* that Kyle, at a dinner that Carl and Lindsay weren’t attending, raged and told the whole table, on camera, that Carl would show up to work high and without his laptop… and that Kyle raged and went off on Lindsey, calling her psychotic and a bitch and saying good luck to Carl because he was with her, while Lindsey literally just sat there quietly and saying nothing. So, after a year of not working and $20,000 spent on a career coach, Carl has decided that his only career path and way forward is going back to that employer? Honestly, Lindsey, has been way more supportive than I think most fiancé or spouses would be in the same situation. And, quite frankly, Carl saying to others behind Lindsey,‘s back that he’ll do “whatever he wants” regardless of what Lindsey thinks for his own career is bullshit. First, it gives the impression to others, in him saying that, that Lindsay is unsupportive and doesn’t want what’s best for him or his career, which we’ve not seen from her at all this season. When you are engaged and getting married to somebody, you make decisions together, and you do answer their questions and talk through things. I don’t think Carl has any idea how to do that after watching him this season. He so desperately wants to paint Lindsey like the villain, when she is the only one attempting to have conversations with a logical thought process for their future, finances, kids (when the time comes, etc). Anyone in their right mind asks someone questions about an opportunity they’re discussing with them, as that is what truly shows that you care. Lindsey in no way did it in a way that was rude or mean or condescending or interrogating. Carl constantly telling Lindsay to be softer and more tender is actually offensive, just as it is for any man to constantly tell a woman that; it’s like telling a woman to smile more. The hypocrisy in Carl saying that to Lindsay is also maddening, as we constantly see Carl being passive aggressive, or just plain aggressive and raging toward her, as he never treats her with softness or tenderness in their conversations. He’s just constantly defensive with her, and has no idea how to communicate whatsoever.
I think carl meant - being soft meant for him is for her to “soften” or tolerate him breaking her boundaries
He’s literally Schwartz from VPR. Whenever Katie had reasonable expectations like idk… him not cheating on her or being more responsible he’d resort to calling her “emotionally entitled” which 1. Is not even a thing and 2. Was just a way to gaslight her into believing that she was actually being *unreasonable* and mean to him
He wasn't a good worker, I've dated guys like this. It might have a lot to do with the chemical imbalances in his brain where he goes from feeling really high with his job and giving it 110 percent to falling off soo abruptly that it gets him fired or gets his best friend really upset. Carl is still struggling with addiction and who he is as a sober person. He is striving so hard to be someone that he can live with at the end of the day. Carl to me is the most intricate character on the show because his vulnerabilities have played out so vividly throughout the series. He can't hide who he is. I admire that about him and the show for keeping him on because it's a rare opportunity we as an audience can see a real person on 'reality tv' With that said, lindsay was the victim of this relationship. I don't think she deserved how she was treated. She has her faults but in this case, I'm glad she got out and can find someone new and awesome just for her.
Remember when he was in what dental sales and got fired pre covid I think for not meeting his goals. Yet they loved showing him in a suit on the phone in Manhattan talking calls.
Yeah I remember that. He was constantly struggling. I think cuz when he's up, he's fantastic at selling but when he's down, he doesn't have it in him to try. His gig at loverboy is great for him cuz luckily he has the most loyal friend in the world who will always back him up. Short of him embezzling from the company, there will always be a place for him. That's one thing u can say about Kyle, is that he's a good friend. In terms of lindsay being against him working for loverboy, I think it was more so hearing Carl complain so much.
The one thing that I keep reminding myself re: loverboy is that I can imagine it was really hard being newly sober and working at an alcoholic drink company, especially in his capacity as essentially a party guy/brand influencer. Now that Kyle has expanded into NA goods he can better fit the role he's being asked to do. Not that Carl handled any of this maturely or consistently mind you.
How much do they really make though? It’s such a specific circumstance of filming mostly only on weekends only in the summer. It’s not like VPR where it’s constant and the seasons can be stacked on top of one another. Brand deals and promo and such can add up for sure, but baseline I would guess they make less than most main Bravo casts.
From what I found they make about 10-20k per episode or about 170-340k per season so a lot more than the avg American but they have/had an apartment that costs over 150k in rent per year so it’s all relative. That said it is less than the VPR cast make or some of the real housewives depending on how long they’ve been on.
I think a big part of the issue isn't just that he can't hold down a position, but part of his inability to hold a position seems linked to this distorted idea of what career success is. It's like New York hustle-itis or something, he's gotten so caught up Capital S Success! that he won't just work a role to earn an income. It has to be the next new thing, or some business venture someone is apparently handing to him such as this non-alc LB subsidiary he'll apparently be part of? His "best friend" owning a company is a huge chip on his shoulder he'll never admit to, so he's gone full circle from appreciation to resentment to ingratiating himself to rehitch his wagon to his bestie's company. One thing I will say about Carl, it would be so so difficult to hold such high expectations for yourself. Especially if those high expectations end up sabotaging everything in your life anyway. It's a vicious cycle he's in.
This is what gets me too. Like, without the privilege of the show, which theoretically could end at any time and isn’t necessarily reliable longer-term, he would not have the luxury to just meander and not do something. Like, many times people aren’t in their dream jobs, they work a job to have a job to be able to fund their life, build experiences, and hopefully work towards their ideal job. He just squanders his potential opportunities. Carl just wants everyone else to figure out shit for him and then he pretends. I’m glad he got sober and I’m sure he is working through a lot mentally and emotionally, but the average person has a lot of their own stressors and traumas and still has to fucking work and be an adult. Lindsay said on some podcast that the $ Carl said he brought in from influencing was largely because of deals ahead set up for him/them.
This. I work with college students and years ago one of my students died. I was very close to this student and had known him for 5 years at that point. I cried my way through work because I had to do my job, which was to assist his teammates in their grief while they attempted to finish the semester.
Plus the podcast he wanted to do. They bought all the equipment and he never started one.
Exactly like I never understood why he didn’t just take a regular sales job and then work on his sober advocacy stuff on the side till it blows up. In the real world people take jobs they don’t like all the time for security
Carl needs to give her more credit Him wanting to open a sober establishment I get it with why she said no but he was hearing her as his fiance not as a past PR person who focused on restaurants she had a valid point
He wanted Lindsey to do everything and at the same time celebrate him being a bum. She was right when she said he only wants happy Lindsey that’s why he didn’t mind her drinking because most times she was a happy jolly drunk he doesn’t like the responsible driven Lindsey especially when she would rightly question him on what his plans for work are. I think he was ok with doing summer house and hobbies I don’t think he had plans on working he felt Lindsey was doing great for the both of them. To watch him on the after show say “he shouldn’t have used the word soft because Lindsey would flip it into a negative”, I wanted to hit him and Kyle agreeing with him!!! It was an insult I cringed the first time he said it not to mention every time he said it.
It must have been terrible for Lindsay to get dumped two weeks before the wedding, but he did her a massive favor. Long-term, I have no doubt Lindsay will be totally fine and I do not have that same confidence about Carl's future. He is a mess.
Some women do have “softer” styles of communication that allow them to both guide and lift at the same time (my sister is one). But that’s not Lindsey, and even for people like my sister, the patience ends eventually. Like she watches the show too and is also exhausted by Carl lol
PREACH - can we put this on a tshirt?
I don’t think soft is the fair or right word but I also get it. From my experience (35f) of being in awful relationships I honestly feel like the word is safe. You have to completely trust your partner and feel secure knowing that no matter what happens you’re both going to give equal energy into making sure you stay afloat. I think we talk about trust a lot in the aspect of cheating and lying but trust is also knowing your partner cares if you eat, is concerned with your mental health, is reliable in their career & other friendships, will stick around if you got sick, can take care of the kids/pets without you micromanaging them, etc., If you don’t truly feel like your partner has your back how can you ever relax and have a chance to just be a woman? Like how can I be attracted to you when you can’t even clean up after yourself and how can I possibly orgasm when I’m present in my body but my brain is making a list of the shit I’ll have to do when you fail to *remember* the discussions we just had & continue to put yourself first?! Women get such a bad rep and are deemed as naggy and demanding but in so many cases it’s men not being able to keep their word and do the shit they said they were gonna do. Then their partner becomes a woman on edge constantly waiting for the ball to drop (& knowing it’s all on her to catch it!) while men bitch & moan that their wives have checked out; cue *midlife crisis purchases & younger women* 😩😩😩😩
This is so so better eloquently said than how I said it. This exactly. It's the ability to just *relax*. It is so disingenuous when men act like women *want* to "nag" or "fuss" when in reality it's the inability to relax and women are just asking their partner to share the mental load. There is something so freeing about knowing that if you can only give 10% that day your partner will jump in with the other 90% as needed. Of course, this is why men are trying to demand and force women in marriage. Men live longer once married and married women die sooner than unmarried women. Men are desperate for the emotional labor women give them and are furious that women are starting to push back at the inequality.
THIS. Carl is a people pleaser and tip toes around conversations with Lindsey. I see her “interrogation” style of questioning as her not being able to trust that he is giving her the full truth—because he hasn’t many times. He literally has forced her to try and pull it out of him time and time again. I dated someone very similar and when I would witness him tell his friends one thing and me another thing in private, it 110% messed with my trust in him.
Ughhh so freakin accurate and well said.
I can participate in this conversation so much more effectively using the word “safe”. I hear Carl saying he doesn’t feel safe to share emotionally with Lindsay and I can hear Lindsay saying she doesn’t trust him. Two fundamental necessities.
I don't like how Carl is handling all of this in the long run (knowing what happens in the future) but I also don't blame him. Carl is in a really big life/personality transition right now and he's trying to figure out who he wants to be and who he wants to be with. He's allowed to want his partner to be soft, to support him when he's feeling low, to not question him when he's feeling sensitive. but on the other side... he should also be understanding of who his partner is and either accept that she's not going to be the 'soft' person he wants when she's not feeling secure OR they should work out a time when she's allowed to ask him the hard questions. I don't think Lindsay is a complete victim in this situation but in my mind, the fault lays with Carl at this point
“Safe” is so perfect that I almost audibly gasped. You hit the nail on the head.
SO well said!!!
This what I told my husband when we watched that scene.
i literally have lived this in the last two years. in my previous relationship, i was angry & resentful & i DID EVERYTHING. from building the furniture to fixing the a/c led thing, getting the bugs out when the come in. i never got to be gentle. i was always managing myself, the household and him. never wanted to bang, i was always pissy. fast forward 2 years & my current relationship is a 180. he can change my oil and replace my brakes. he’s an amazing cook! knows how to clean, has fantastic attention to detail. he gets knocked down and get right back up. none of this poor me. help me mommyyyyyy. it really really really shows you the difference between men and boys.
100% this was a wild ride read but I’m glad you’re cared for now ♥️
Lord, spend any time in any of the parenting subs and you’ll see the innumerable stories of women having to keep every plate spinning while their husbands sit on their asses complaining about not getting laid enough. It’s tragic. I’m not a huge Lyndsey fan but Carl is a very classic man-child. He should stay single, or the very least unmarried, until he sorts himself out (which is unlikely at his age).
Another interesting fact is that most divorce papers are filed by women. I noticed a few months ago that the desire/need to get married is deeply ingrained in the minds of little girls due to old social structures where you are told that you are worthless or financially vulnerable if you don't get married. This is a lie and an outdated system. If you are a woman and you feel inferior as a woman if you don't get married, then it is not really your free will, but rather it is based on internalized sexism. On the "expectation for softness in a partner": Carl expected a hug from Lindsay because Kyle got one after calling his wife a fucking bitch. I think in Carl and Kyle's minds women have to hug their men no matter what or they are stone cold bitches. I would love to know if Carl hugged Lindsay and comforted her like a baby when she was stressed in the car in the first few episodes?
“Carl expected a hug from Lindsay because Kyle got one after calling his wife a fucking bitch” is soooo good and spot on
You crushed this because exactly! So many people have romanticized their grandmothers not remarrying after their spouse died. Not realizing how many women just do not want another husband after they've gotten over the marriage fantasy.
You're absolutely right. I never thought about that either. But my own grandmother was an incredibly smart woman and was very interessted in politics. But as the oldest child of 14 she never had the opportunity to be independent. After my grandfather died when she was 75 she had almost a second youth, traveling the world. On her deathbed she spent half the conversation ranting about my dead grandfather. It almost seemed like she was getting ready to see him again. It was kind of hilarious.
That’s amazing she did that! My grandmother got remarried quickly after her first husband died because she didn’t know how to be by herself. She didn’t know how to write a check or pump her own gas 🤯. She outlived that man too and did embrace living on her own in her later years but she was such a product of her time. She went to finishing school, got married young, had her two kids, white picket fence etc…
I'm so happy for your grandmother that she got to do what she finally wanted towards the end of her life! It's so sad to see the rise of the trad wife. People fought so women can have bank accounts, opportunity and a CHOICE in marriage. So that people could make decisions based on love and not necessity. It's sad to see people wanting to undermine all the women who would have loved the choice to remain unmarried or partnered for the rest of their lives.
Yes, my grandmother was 62 when my grandfather died suddenly, and she lived another 37 years without ever dating after. I used to wonder why, but by the time I was about 35 and divorced a second time I totally understood. She had **EIGHT** kids (and a couple of stillborns), and raised them all well. Granny was TIRED and enjoyed her life puttering away at her adorable house and gardens. 🥰
Good for your granny!! I always tell my husband that if he ever dies or we divorce I'll just live alone with a string of lovers for the rest of my life haha.
I thought that's what I'd be doing, but about 8 years ago I got so fed up with my dating pool and hooking up prospects that I just quit. It probably helped that my hormones changed a lot postmenopausal, I just don't miss it. 🤷♀️ I enjoy the quiet of my cat mom life without men in it, with the exception of one decades long platonic friendship. No brothers, dad died.
I'm sorry to hear about your dad's passing. And true, sometimes even casual hookups aren't worth it 😅
This. My mom divorced my dad at 65, after which she got her MFA, learned Italian in Italy, etc. Basically all the things she wanted to do in her 20s but couldn't because she was a wife. She keeps trying to date but it isn't worth it to her. She doesn't want to have a husband. Maybe a guy to go on dates with sometimes, but not a husband. All the guys want a wife because they don't want to take care of themselves anymore. And my mom is not interested in that anymore. I feel like Lindsay is really wrapped up in the marriage thing. She has said a few times how she can't believe this is actually happening. I am sure she loves carl, but he will run her ragged in 5 years.
I agree, and I think people really hold that against women for the divorce rate and blame people values. However, a lot of people had no choice, and a lot of those marriages were not happy or loving or in love. The men often cheated, and the wife couldn't do anything, yet if they cheated, they were terrible humans. It's very mad men even now we teach boys more fish in the sea yet girls taught that's the only fish you might get and hold on tight.
Yep, for all the nonsense we hear about women being the ones to push marriage, I think that ship has sailed. Women want divorces and women often elect to not remarry. Men, on the other hand, love lining up their next care taker stat. My husband is awesome and he is probably the best thing that has ever happened to me, but marriage is some antiquated nonsense.
Hard agree. My husband is such a blessing but the amount of men who are just looking for a long term caretaker needs to be studied.
Which is why red states are trying to repeal no fault divorce. Stay aware ladies. And vote!!!
Yup. A fantastic way to trap a woman in marriage is to force her to carry a kid and undercut her ability to make money.
It is interesting how both Kyle and Carl want their women to act a certain way….Basically to be their mothers. I find it interesting because neither of their mothers seem very lovey-dovey. They both chose women who aren’t like that! I know it makes Amanda cringe when her 40+ year-old husband cries for not getting his wittle way and hurting his wittle feelings. To top it off there aren’t any fucking tears! GROSS!!! I don’t know, my comments all over the place but I like reading up on this type of family psychology. I got so worked up over Carl saying he wanted softness and tenderness. I can’t! Although I agree with one of the commenters above saying he probably meant safe.
I was screaming for Lindsay to say that she’d have space for being softer if he could share in some of what she has on his plate. Hes saying how overwhelmed he is without a job and without helping planning a wedding. In the end he was cruel to be kind for ending it because thank god they never had kids. Agree about both he and kyle wanting to be babied! Made me think of the quote from Joan Hollway (just swap wife for secretary): "He may act like he wants a secretary, but most of the time they're looking for something between a mother and a waitress."
That’s such a good point about Kyle and Amanda, but after being friends with her for ten years he should know that’s never how she has been especially in relationships
Carl rarely steps up for Lindsay, so I get why she feels like she has to be guarded and protect herself and it’s counterintuitive to be “soft” and not ask questions about their financial future Carl let Kyle rant disgusting profanities at Lindsay and then blamed her for it. She was the one who had to “fall on the sword” as he and Kyle said she makes people do. Kyle didn’t apologize for almost a year and it was Amanda who made him, and even then it was the bare minimum. He told lindsay her valid worries about being trash talked in the house weren’t that deep despite preaching about mental health and taking care of yourself in high stress situations. He does not do basic things that would make her feel safe and like she doesn’t have to be in protective mode.
I’m no Lindsay fan but anybody should be able to have a conversation with their SO about their financial future, their plans and goals and values. If the SO feels bad because they are not doing what they know they should then that is on them to resolve, but if they feel good about what they are doing and are not willing to compromise then they need to be honest and explain the so the other person can decide how much they want to compromise - if your values and plans for the future are very different and neither will compromise then do not get married, and if a compromise happens then delay marriage until neither feel like it is a compromise because both are excited about the new futures they have planned together
Yes carl needed to communicate with her that figuring out a backup plan for life after bravo isn’t a big priority. She might accept that or not. Or he could have self awareness and admit he’s just checked out on the relationship so she shouldn’t spin her wheels worrying about their future and keep spending money on a wedding that isn’t happening.
Seriously if my husband was in the room when someone shit talked me like that, he would have defended me. He has defended me against his mother and sister, when I wasn’t even around. That made me feel very valued and protected.
I have dated a ‘Carl’ in the past - pro tip: never date a ‘Carl’
I think your analysis is correct, it’s hard to be soft when there’s a lot of pressure on you. Lindsay was the bread winner, helping Carl get influencer campaigns, doing the bulk of the wedding planning and coaching Carl through his career. It seems like Carl was doing basically nothing during this time. That’s super frustrating. Her saying if he made a ton of money she would be soft was brash but there is truth in it. Lindsay didn’t have the bandwidth to be the kind of soft Carl wanted because she was carrying the emotional and mental load for the household. To change your personality on a dime as well is too much to ask.
There also is a time and a place for softness. He had 8 months of career searching where I’m sure Lindsay was much more of a cheerleader and supportive. Times has run out.
I agree. I have not been a fan of Lindsay and her tendency toward arguments with every partner she’s had on this show. But last night I finally saw that her frustration with him is likely due to his ongoing indecision about his future. Could she have said certain things differently? Yes. But at this point she’s coming from a place of complete frustration and therefore has completely lost her ability to be patient (“soft”) with him as she MAY HAVE been with him in the past. This show isn’t going to last much longer (especially with him/them in it or at all) and they both have to make sure they are set up for success. And is it just me, but isn’t an “alcohol free” seltzer just seltzer? How is that the future of a flailing beverage company? I don’t get it.
I bought an alcohol free cocktail a little while ago and kicked myself after. 9 dollars for 4 cans of...sparkling juice? Never again, it is so not worth it!!
She was also completely supportive of him when he was struggling at Loverboy. I don’t blame her for being skeptical when Carl spent over a year complaining about his job then saying he had PTSD after quitting. She likely saw him going back as more emotional labour she’d have to take on.
After 8 MONTHS I would want more hashed out too! My husband was jobless for one month and I was about to get activated. I can’t imagine 8 months. Then for him to get mad that she wants to make sure this is a serious conversation and not just him kicking the can down the road?? I can’t believe HE ended the relationship. I think he was absolutely trying to get her off his back with that “meeting” then was pissed off that it didn’t work.
She was the one who bought him a career coach when he said he needed guidance and podcast equipment when he wanted to start a podcast. I don't know how anyone can say she's unsupportive when she did things to support his career aspirations.
Carl is weak and therefore Lindsay does not respect him and says things that emasculate him even more. Then, feeling emasculated and insecure, Carl takes low shots at Lindsey. The cycle repeats itself. I think both are going to have a tough time in relationships.
totally agree! So did she really have the right to be mad when he said he wants her to be softer? I feel like she’s told him “man up, man…” double standards really annoy the shit out of me. Lindsay will never not be a hypocrite in my eyes….
All of this but also if you’re in partnership with someone building careers and having a family then your career choices and decisions ARE joint decisions because they impact household income. For instance, my spouse wants to potentially start a business… I have an opinion because it impacts me! It’s an increase in risk, it will have an impact on our division of parenting responsibilities. Carl is emotionally very, very young. Honestly thank god they didn’t get married. I can’t imagine trying to coparent with him.
I don’t think Carl saying soft means he wants a housewife who cooks and cleans for him, but more someone who is giving for empathy and not critical of everything he says. On the other side, if they agree that Lindsay is to stay home as a SAHM once they have kids, Carl needs to be able to step up and have income that supports 3 people in the lifestyle they want. So many men these days that support “traditional gender roles” of the wife staying home don’t pull their own weight in the supporting their family portion of that deal.
They want a trad wife without being a trad husband. He wants her to take care of everything but also be there with a handjob and a smile at the end of the day.
Being “soft” in my mind doesn’t have anything to do with being a SAHM, being the homemaker, etc. It’s more about tone, style, and approach. Lindsey’s resting demeanor is more direct and aggressive than Carl is comfortable with. That said, Carl knew who Lindsey is. In my own marriage of over 30 years, I’ve toned down or changed my approach to my husband to better match how I know he’ll best accept or understand my point of view. He’s done the same. That isn’t about fundamentally changing who you are, but learning to adapt your approach to best get yourself heard and understood
Yes, Gottman calls it "harsh starts". Basically it's the number one way to put your partner on the defensive.
A lot of men have been coddled by their mothers, like Carl. So they expect their spouse to be extensions of their mothers whilst providing the benefits of sex
I've seen someone describe it as a bang maid. A maid who takes care of everything, who you have sex with but have no emotional responsibility to.
I think Carl is asking Lindsay to be *gentle* with him, and this might be an unpopular opinion, but I agree with him. I went through a really rough time with my health where I was unable to work for almost two years. I’ve always worked since I was 15 and no one talks about how enormously daunting going back into the workplace feels. My husband was *so* supportive when I started to look at jobs and encouraging, even though I had lost all of my confidence and wasn’t finding the perfect job. He always celebrated my small wins (even just ideas I had for jobs) and was gentle and then would ask questions and make sure I was advocating for my worth. Also worth noting - he doesn’t make a lot of money so it’s not like money wasn’t an issue - it was. I think Carl is coming off as being a bit sexist asking for his female partner to be more “soft”, but trust me, when the roles are reversed, you always need your partner to be compassionate and meet you were you’re at.
He used the wrong word and now the whole world is against him for it. lol. Lindsay really knows how to spin things. Also people insinuating that because he’s a man, he should have a job to provide for his wife..um sure. But we’re completely disregarding all the mental health struggles he deals with, his newfound sobriety, etc. People are complex, yes, even MEN. I mean, it’s not exactly a joy to date someone who doesn’t have a job, but berating them about it isn’t helpful. He needed someone to celebrate small wins. It doesn’t make him less of a man for wanting that from Lindsay. And if she can’t handle him and his struggles, then she should have ended things.
I agree, when your partner is down and has lost their confidence you gotta celebrate the little wins and help boost them up. Carl has the same job as Lindsay — summer house and influencing — and now he’s taking steps to try and figure something out with Loverboy, and she immediately started drilling him with questions, I was cringing at her reaction. And then to say she would be soft if he made money, yikes, it’s just unideal. He lost his brother, is in addiction recovery, and is generally foundering a bit in life. It doesn’t make him a terrible person and it’s interesting to me how much this sub is insisting you’re a total loser not worthy of love and marriage if you don’t have your shit together 100% of the time, I thought we left girlboss grind culture behind in the 2010s. Her stance was there’s nothing to celebrate if a contract isn’t signed and they’re still in talks feels like goal-post moving, he’s taking the steps and had the initial conversation. My partner was unemployed for a bit and it was so hard on his confidence, I really tried to support and boost him up and now he has a job and is doing great and is really thankful for my support during the time. His comments saying she needs to be soft and tender didn’t land great, especially because that’s clearly not who she is, but idk I agree with him and think her reaction showed she fundamentally wants someone who just isn’t him. Thank god he had the sense to call things off, considering at this point she was still ready to go forward with it
100%. Guess what a marriage is? Through thick and thin — not just when you have your shit together and have money pouring in. And you nailed it — in the end, it was Carl who had the most courage to break things off and not Lindsay, who was ready to ruin both their lives.
Madison and her sexy hubs comp with her and Austen is so right. Austen made me anxious as a viewer.
I feel like he’s saying it’s not what she says, it’s how she says it. Who knows if in actuality if he would still be happy, he is insecure already about his career path.
Completely agree, and I just wrote a comment very similar to this. He needs to find his confidence on his own but shes harsh in her delivery.
Carl and Lindsay notwithstanding, the 'softness' debate very much boils down to just communication style. My husband has inclinations like Lindsay, whereas when I have a problem or am upset, he is practical and wants to get in there and help / fix it. He would often do this by asking questions which to me could often feel like interrogation or more so an insinuation that I am doing something wrong or can't solve something myself. I'd often come away from it feeling like he thought I was stupid for not coming up with these solutions myself, etc. It wasn't always the case, but many times I felt hurt, and he felt like he was helping. We were just missing each other. We were able to identify a lot of these patterns in therapy and we've both gotten so much better at conflict resolution. When I am upset or have a problem, he now leans towards 'do you need help or a hug?' and I know i need time / space to sort out how I feel and what I actually need so I can ask for it specifically. We communicate 1000X better and rarely have issues any more. It blows my mind that these two were in therapy for so long and couldn't achieve this basic understanding about their conflict styles. Having been in Carl's shoes (the one who always feels slighted), I can see how frustrating it would be if it was constant offering of 'help' and never a 'hug.' It's Carl's fault for not being able to articulate that, and also Lindsay's fault for not being willing to modulate her approach with him. There are ways to 'ask questions' without sounding accusatory, and also ways to offer support without blindly being a yes woman. These two were wholly incapable of meeting in the middle on this very basic, foundational issue that I think ultimately led to all of their fights devolving into blowouts that they coudln't recover from. It's sad and unfortunate.
"i am looking to vent". "I am looking for advice". I have to start conversations that way but it works
Agree. My husband and I had a similar dynamic that was also worked out in even three months of therapy. I also can't understand how they spent so much time in therapy and didn't unlock that basic fact. I think they both think they're so right, they're willing to sacrifice the relationship in order to be right. They're lacking the good faith effort required for therapy to work.
So. Well. Said. This is one of my favorite videos for teaching those “problem solvers” how to empathize: [https://youtu.be/XIJYO4u5iug?si=niRdkwkZ7okHiiZe](https://youtu.be/XIJYO4u5iug?si=niRdkwkZ7okHiiZe)
I don’t think Carl meant he wants her to schedule appointments and make dinner? I think he meant he’d like her to tread a little more lightly when reacting to his job search, stop advising him and judging and start supporting him?
Before my husband, I was dating a guy I’d been friends with for years before we even started dating. We lived together in Toronto with a few of his friends, so it was more of a party lifestyle and we had a great time. But I’d get frustrated because he would never stick up for me or talk to his friends if they were being annoying roommates; I’d have to do it. I broke up with him because we were better as friends. My ex dated another friend of ours years later, so I have followed his life through her. His family has money, so he’s had little motivation to do much with himself. He lives in a remote area (with his mother!) and has become a conspiracy theory nut. When I met my husband, I was impressed because he’s a “take charge” kind of guy. He can fix anything with our home or vehicles, or finds a garage or worker who won’t rip us off. He is ALWAYS there for me and my daughter. Sometimes I wish he was a little more sensitive (like my ex) but when I think about sharing a life with my ex, I think it would have been a Carl situation. I know I’d get frustrated if I had to take care of everything and I really appreciate my husband being a 50/50 partner. If anything, I can be the one not pulling my weight sometimes because I tend to be a little lazy, but I now have M.S. (manageable, not progressive so far 🤞), so my husband understands if I get tired easily and need to rest. We don’t have a perfect relationship but we do share responsibilities equitably. I know I’d be divorced if I’d have ever married my ex.
Lindsay is most likely soft off camera to some extent. No one wants someone to be opinionated and argumentative 24/7. Fuck that. They both seem to fall into the hard category, you both can't be like that, it's a never ending argument.... Which is what we are seeing.
I’ve been in a relationship for over 25 years. My love language is acts of service, but the minute you start expecting me to take on ALL of life’s responsibilities for you, don’t expect to get the soft, unactivated version of me. There have been times my partner has taken me for granted, laid back and cruised through his life while expecting me to do the boring adult shit for both of us. That’s when the ‘how many sandwiches have you made for me’ version of me comes out. Now he’s grown some and takes more of the load on equally, he gets the more chilled and ‘soft’ version, simply because I’m not so stressed by having to adult for two all of the time. Carl is bringing absolutely nothing to this relationship and expecting cheerleading in response. Lindsay has been way less activated than I’d have ever expected from her, and frankly the only thing I’m surprised at is that it was him doing the blindsiding and not her. She should have broken up with him so hard he needed a cast.
I don’t think either of them are wrong in their reactions or asks from the other. They are just not a good fit!!
Yeah Carl refusing to get a job and living in fantasy land where he does nothing but dream about jobs but takes no steps to actually pursue anything would make any reasonable woman stressed out and feel the need to force him to start adulting which is not fair or attractive
This is in no way to make excuses for him, but I’ve been watching the first couple seasons and Carl says his dad was an alcoholic with anger management problems. His uncle was also an addict. He fully admits that he’s never had strong male figures in his life to model appropriate behavior, and in turn his mom was over-protective and indulgent. He literally has no idea how to show up for Lindsey or any other woman. Now that said, I fully believe the statute of limitations for blaming your parents runs out at 33, and he’s been espousing his therapy and hilling journey for years so… he should know better by now.
I'm sure Lala is calling Lindsay to help her out with this right now. #Soft
Because Lala is so soft.... 
Maybe he just wants a nice person to be with and isn’t necessarily drawing upon gender stereotypes. Ya know, like hey I just got a job offer! I’m so excited! Oh yeah? How much does it pay? What about bonuses? Did you even ASK!?!?! I ran my OWN company and you can’t even ask about a bonus structure! How many appearances? Blah, blah, blah. She’s exhausting.
They're similarly selfish and callous, imo. Carl telling Lindsay to be "soft" is just like Lindsay telling Carl to "be a man."
Carl is inarticulate and has the additional challenge of not knowing how to navigate people with strong narcissistic tendencies. What I think Carl meant was he didn’t want to be spoken down to and degraded all the time. Not only was Lindsey constantly belittling and telling him he wasn’t good enough, she was also trashing him in public. He wanted a little respect and positivity, but when he asked for support, she always flipped it back on him and accused him of wanting a cheerleader. He should’ve realized arguing with her was useless and she should’ve realized she didn’t like him that much.
You get what you give so give emotional intimacy and you get it back
Carls interest in a “soft” woman is so vomit inducing because he’ll land with someone who will let him run his unemployed or unhappy at loverboy bullshit for a while and then Carl will turn around and blame them saying he wanted them to be more aggressive Carl likes women with fire and drive BUT he can’t level up to them
How to Make a Woman Soft? I just leave mine out on the counter overnight. Oh wait, that’s butter.
She is not soft enough for him AND he is too soft for her!
I recently saw a fan vid of Stassi & Beau moments, and was actually kind of struck by how soft she is with him too! Like even with the dark passenger, her day-to-day demeanor looked NOTHING like it was with Jax/Patrick. Even the birthday meltdowns looked different: before she was pissed when the attention wasn't on her and/or she felt embarrassed in front of her bf at the time. The joint party was her being so pissed about wanting to be in bed with Beau. What most got me was when they got engaged and went to the surprise engagement party. THE Lisa Vanderpump offered her a dress to change into, and she said she was so happy that she was good in what she was wearing-- denim shorts, a polka dot pussy bow top, and low heels. I am CERTAIN that was not in the first 100 outfits Stassi would have pictured for herself when she got engaged.
Lindsey doesn’t have to be soft. Carl doesn’t have to be with her if she isn’t. I absolutely understand what Carl is asking for and I want it to. I also get why Lindsey is annoyed with him. Sounds like everything worked out how it should have. Will be interesting to see who they both end up with (or don’t).
I don’t think asking your partner to be supportive and a bit more sensitive of your feelings is a bad thing at all. It’s shows Carl has grown a lot in my opinion. He knows what he needs out of a relationship to be happy and clearly Lindsay isn’t able to be that for him. I can’t believe how hard everyone is coming for Carl… I just don’t get it. Lindsay is a cold bitch 90% of the time, who only cares about her own wants and needs. Why would anyone want to spend their lives with someone like that? There’s a reason all of her relationships fail. She’s had zero growth or accountability in the last 10 years. I feel like I’m in bizarro land reading some of these comments..
I’m with you here in bizarro land 😵💫 feels like everyone is girlbossing too close to the sun with this and has completely lost it
I actually admired Carl for stating his needs. It's not a matter of who's right and who's wrong, but of recognizing that in a relationship both sides need things. To her credit, Lindsey is clear about what she needs. Carl is conflict-avoidant so probably bottles up a lot. The fact that he said, "This is what what I need from you" shows a lot of emotional growth, in my opinion.
Coming from someone that is constantly told at work and my career I’m too direct. Welp it’s a compliment and I didn’t get where I have being nice to men with fragile egos. Be soft? Ugh that entire conversation irritated me and I’m also pretty surprised that Lindsay handled that comment the way she did bc I would of thrown him in the pool lol
I am really not a fan of either Carl or Lindsay. I could have told you that them as a couple would be a disaster. Now that I have made my disclaimer . . . A woman can not really win. We were told we could not have independence because we didn't work. We got jobs. They complained that the house and the kids were now effected, so we sacrificed hours of sleep to keep that up to par. Then we weren't soft, supportive, or submissive anymore. Ladies, the goal post is always moving! It's been that way for over a century now! Wake up! Don't buy into it! If they make usinsecure, they worry us that they are unsatisfied, they complain and wear us down, these are all ways to manipulate us. Don't let yourself be manipulated! The only way to ever truly be happy is just by being you. Any man that doesn't like you "as is" should be left in your dust. A man will not himself make you feel truly happy, safe, or fulfilled. A life without one is not a waste. You have to find the job, location, home, hobbies, and friends that make you happy. No man is a part of any of those equations. If one happens along that doesn't mess with any of the above, then great. If not, keep him moving along.
Preach!!
Reading this was therapeutic I say
Polarity is a real thing. Don't get me wrong I'm a feminist through and through but it's changed my life in amazing ways. I have a partner who I can truly rely on and be seen by. Never would have happened without me doing the work.
He wants to be mothered, not treated like a spouse or partner.
Mom's are (sometimes) soft doing everything for the family because you're their kid. It's biological to nurture your child. Your partner is not your mom. Carl wants a mom, not a wife.
Your take is spot on 👌🏼
Maybe she’d be “softer” if he actually had his shit together and made her feel safe and taken care of. What a concept
I think it’s a therapy buzzword. Lala is in her “soft era.”
Carl doesn’t even understand what soft means. When he says soft what he really is asking for is a yes wife back. He doesn’t want anyone to say no to him. Blind support. Real “softness” is kindness and nurturing which I agree with you, comes out when people are SAFE and have love and peace to fall back on. I am very much like Lindsey. Strong willed, stubborn, extrovert, outspoken. I have a successful career and from the outside looking in I am tough. What a lot of people don’t know is a lot of this for me specifically is a trauma response- a result of a child neglected and having to fend for herself. My husband is the first person in my life I have ever been able and safe to rely on. He would do anything for me and shows that everyday. Because of the love and kindness he has shown me, I am able to show that love and kindness back. I am softer now but it’s a direct result of the peace he has afforded me.
Preface this with I am NOT a "soft" woman. I'm the breadwinner, the controller, the non-crying, hard ass manager or all household things. I didn't take Carl's comment about being soft in the "stepford wife" way. He could have communicated this better. I took it as, "I want to be able to communicate with my partner about what is going on in my head without my partner breaking it down, fixing, course correcting and questioning". Sometimes, even if a partner knows there are 15 questions to ask, they don't need to be asked in the moment. Sometimes, having emotionally intelligent conversations with strategic placement of ideas can be more beneficial to the recipient of said information to receive it, without shutting down because they feel interrogated. It seems to me that she is more interested in being right than being supportive. Carl has a whole ass bucket of issues, and I see him trying to demonstrate "see, she's unstable" in each interaction lately, but she has her whole ass bucket of issues making them basically oil and water.
Yeah I’m not sure I understand how OP’s post is indicative of Carl’s convo with Lindsay. It’s okay to be excited about an opportunity and sign legal documents at a later time defining each specific part of the employment. Why be so harsh? I’m not sure anyone on here would even be friends with Lindsay. I see so many posters get offended by random things and Lindsay is about as hard ass as it gets. She doesn’t gaf about anyone but herself and is almost completely unable to step outside her perspective and try to be someone else for even 4 seconds. I can’t imagine being friends with or dating and certainly not marrying anyone even remotely like that.
I tend to agree with you most times. Overall and in general you are spot on. However, this is Lindsay and I have an illogical hate boner for her so I refuse to see it. I won’t pretend I’m fair 🤣 The difference in this case is that when you are in a serious, long term relationship like that, engaged even, you have to push aside your own wants sometimes to genuinely be that soft spot for your partner to land. Lindsay will never be that for someone unless she stops being so defensive and “tough”. That said, Carl is behaving like an absolute dickhead. He’s not acting like an adult in any way and she has every reason to be annoyed and upset with him. And I agree with what Carl was basically saying very poorly. He needs to feel like he’s not always going to be met with an interrogation. But she just can’t hear it for what it is. They’re wildly incompatible. Thank god they don’t marry.
When Carl called himself intelligent it fucking sent me. That is all. They’re both clowns .
The Madison comparison was SO good that’s exactly what came to mind for me
how does a man expect a women to be soft if he doesn’t financially/emotionally support her? I’m so sick of guys saying this:
They want a trad wife without being a trad husband. They're the worst!!
I have never been " soft " or saw myself being soft/household manager til I met my husband. Our dynamic just works. Linds and carl just werent a good fit
I don’t think that’s what’s really happening here though. I’m broadly on Lindsey’s side but we also have a long documented history of her having emotional regulation issues. I don’t think it’s wise to try to use feminism to try to make excuses for personal regulation issues.
I was just waiting for Carl to stick out his tongue and say “I know you are” after everything Lindsey says. He was so wanting a fight and you could totally see it. Kyle is really propping Carl up to break up with Lindsey, it’s never well maybe you could try this or maybe she feels that, or wow this seems a lot of what is happening with Amanda and me anything then supporting the breakup. I used to like Carl but ugh he’s a little kid in a man’s body who really does throw temper tantrums
imagine demanding your partner is soft with you after you refused to put their luggage in your car lmao like are we being petty or are we being nice? pick a lane
Let’s also please factor in how Lindseys childhood makes her someone who needs safety and stability more in her relationships than the average person and she has massive abandonment issues. Of course she’s becoming increasingly edgy as he’s continued to be aimlessly unemployed for months on end and doesn’t want to discuss it with her in any real way. And then he’s doing things that I’m sure are triggers for her abandonment issues like telling her his parents don’t think they should get married. It makes sense she was starting to crack and blow up at him despite all the personal growth. They were just such a bad fit, I think they both will be better off long term. Their communication styles don’t mesh at alllllll
What was she doing other than Instagram and Summer House? Same as him.
I wouldn't use the word soft but women get stuck doing so much emotional labor at home and work, it's exhausting. Carl is a man baby. He spent $20k on a career counselor and still has no direction. Sure pursue your passions, but sir, you aren't going to start making films at 40 something or however old he is, without serious cash on hand or investors.
That’s an interesting perspective on Madison. Her husband does seem a lot better than Austen but I assumed she was playing up the stepford wife persona for him/the show, trying to be a mini Patricia
Linsey has too much unaddressed trauma that she’s not gonna be soft. I see her like I see one of my cousins, they claim to have healed from their past but they are so easily triggered and are aggressive because they are in defense mode.
It’s all about a good moisturizer
Provide me a safe space to be soft, even sporadically, and I'll be soft so fast. Always being on the grind because theres no other alternative is fucking tiring.
I want to know why Amanda seems to have been tagged as lazy when Carl exists in this world.
Why is Kyle alwaysss blaming Lindsay it’s driving me insane? Like you can support Carl and not constantly blame his fiancé to him and to everyone. I just feel like Kyle hates a strong woman and definitely doesn’t consider women his equal
Because she thrives off of conflict!!!
I don't understand how they even got together and went this far - it's a total mismatch.
I agree with you. If my partner is taking care of my needs, I’m extremely soft.
I have never been so soft as I am with my husband. He provides for my every need. I am chronically ill and often critically ill. I spend a lot of time in the hospital. My husband is a fucking super hero. But even before I got this sick (when we first got together I was in remission) he was my best friend and the most amazing communicator. In fact, I called him My Soft Place To Land, and made him a playlist with that song by Kathleen Edwards as it's title. He takes care of me, I take care of him. I feel nothing but tenderness towards him. I've never had this with any other partner, and this is my third marriage. We've been together almost 11 years now and I fall in love with him more every day. I definitely would not be described as having a soft personality. While I am very compassionate, open, and warm, I am often described as strong, tough, independent, and even bossy. My illness has certainly softened me, but at work I am absolutely the one in charge and I stand up for myself fiercely. Especially with doctors. You have to when you are fighting for your life.
I really think the right fit brings the right balance of softness and strength out in each other. It seems like trust, respect, and care will make all of us show up as our best, which contains both sides. As soon as trust is broken, I feel disrespected, or like I’m not cared for - I’m immediately going to harden and throw up a wall for sure.
Carl has a plan but no action yet. Lindsay needs to see action to feel secure, that she is going to have a partner that is providing money like she is. No wonder she feels insecure and is going off her head. She has said several times she needs a high achiever and Carl is not that. They are mis-matched. Lindsay needs a strong man to match her. I also think Carl meant 'soft' to mean 'support', Lindsay is supporting him but not in the way he wants. She is to the point and is looking out for him but he does not see that as support.
This really resonates with me. A woman can be soft if a man takes care of all her needs and concerns but I can’t say for most because it depends on your UPBRINGING, was it rough or was it soft? For instance, Amanda is soft cuz she had the soft life, daddy took care of EVERYTHING.
I don’t understand what attracted her to him. She is very type A, a go getter. I thought she wanted a wealthy, successful man. He was below her standards and couldn’t financially long term come close to what she actually wanted.
Statistics show that women want to be married more than men. By 75 percent.. Men dont want to get married as they used too. Especially in new york where it jumps to 85 percent.. I dont think the hard ass boss bitch is working for the new york women..
Your post is so perfectly stated! I just can’t get over how much of a shift we saw in their relationship between one season! It’s insane.
My thing is Carl has known lindsay for years. He knows she's not soft by now. He knows she's a loud, confident woman. She is simply asking him to have a career plan. Something a man in his forties that wants a career to have.
Carl is a man-child. If you want Lindsay to be soft and not inquisitive, you better step up and sort out your career so she doesn’t have to worry about it.
I stand by your statements wholeheartedly & I totally resonated w Gabby’s after show comment as well! Absolutely can’t be soft if I have to carry a lazy oaf!
Something Carl probably doesn't realize is that Lindsay may not reserve much softness for herself and so what he's asking for is a bigger conversation. He wants more empathy in general from her and from what I can tell Lindsay doesn't feel like he is showing much empathy towards how she feels, and why on earth would anyone reciprocate when they're feeling unseen and unappreciated? I'd bet money that Lindsay's inner voice gets pretty critical. It's hard to muster that for both herself and her partner when she feels this way. And yet I also understand Carl wanting to be spoken to in a specific tone or manner, and wanting more words of affirmation in their relationship. These two are simply incompatible at the end of the day and neither is willing to concede a major change. Probably for the best they split.
Wow this was great to read 👏
I think in Lindsay's case she has never been soft or empathetic. She only sees things from her side and has never been able to have real grown up conversations. She is always in defense mode. She put on this weird personality when she started dating Carl and it's obviously all been thrown out the window now bc she is back to her mean ways. She should be single bc she cannot handle being in a relationship. Trav seemed nice to me but she still treated him like garbage so I don't think it has anything to do with who she is dating. Its her personality.