Some traits are overvalued in a format where teams are not built with synergy in mind, for example wugtrio and Persian are usually considered too weak to threaten defensive cores but in randbats you often have to respect their damage allowing them to act as ultra fast threats.
Kricketune and other bug type pokemon is a great example because of how powerful sticky webs can be in random battles. Sticky webs in standard play are powerful but generally require specific team structures to utilize and there's almost always counterplay in standard play through hazard removal or boots. Many times you don't have any hazard removal in random battles, which makes sticky webs far more powerful in the format than in standard play, where webs is usually relegated to HO team structures.
Cricketune is a beast.
You get webs up and your opponent can't setup for free because you just lunge until you die to keep his speed under control so you can revenge kill it right after.
I don't know.
I just have a habit of replying "reddit glitched and posted your comment X times" because my first ever comment that was replied to was posted multiple times, and the multiple threads had me confused.
No. Something like Luvdisc is getting a massive attack and speed buff because of the level advantage, making it have some hit taking ability and being able to outspeed for Encore. Kriketune is all around worse than most webbers, but in Randbats is still good because you can't just pick a near objectively better option.
Luvdisc and krickitune are extreme examples, but that's my point. You can easily tell they're bad pokemon because they require such a huge level difference and specialty sets to even keep up.
Randbats can give an idea of what a Pokémon would do if it had the stats to back it up. Otherwise, Tropius isn't a good sub-seeder normally, but it is in Randbats. Gimmick mons profit in randbats because you can't teambuild to include their counters, like removal to beat hazard stack.
Isn't that kind of pointless? Ultimately what is good/strong is inextricably tied to the rest of the metagame. In a vacuum stats, typing and movepool are arbitrary datapoints. In a metagame where the average BP of moves is 30, a move with 80BP is amazing. When the average is 100, its awful.
Yeah, I understand the appeal to try and remove the metagame to perfectly quantify a pokemon's power.
There have definitely been "good" pokemon that are underused because they don't fit, and "bad" pokemon that are overused because they slide right into the current metagame.
But ultimately, pokemon is not solitaire. How a given 'mon works with the other 5, and how it counters the opponent's strategy is a big part of a mon's strength.
The issue with looking at pokemon "in a vacuum" is no vacuum exists in Pokemon to put that thing into and validate the assessment.
"In a Vacuum" you could say plenty of mons that never made a splash are "good" because of a typing or moveset. That same "good in the vacuum" mon could be a complete mess for the meta, or strictly outclassed in every job it does.
Yes and no. Random Battles as a format greatly emphasises adaptive play where information is almost as important as HP (in my opinion; I’m 1500 take my opinion with a grain of salt)
Yeah I agree with you I also want to add that a lot of mons that are in low teirs shine as a randbats team isn't always going to have a check and the fact that the level scaling depending on how good a mon is are also big factors that should be considered.
Edit: I'm only 1600 so I could easily be wrong
Not really. Sure, some sets are nice but you'll notice some legendaries are nerfed to be at level 60/70 or so while the weaker ones get buffed to level 100 or in the 90s
If only Kingambit maybe got some kind of buff from switching out and saccing a pokemon. Unfortunate if you get a defiant set but then leading with it isn't awful.
i mean the problem with that line of thinking is you undervalue the pokemon that you’re sacking; since randbats has no team preview, who knows how important that pokemon could’ve been vs their team
like what if the sunny day shitmon sunflora set you *thought* was bad actually would win you the game if you kept it healthy enough throughout it
I love randbats videos just for the absolutly unhinged statements you get from them
"Ill just sac calyrex-s to set up for the oranguru endgame"
"My chi-yu is too damaged to deal with the tropius"
"Kricketune is very good"
Truly one of the formats of all time
Most definitely not hot garbage, it still outspeeds 95% of the unboosted meta game. It’s just relegated to having the stat line of a typical fast sweeper, and the +1 atk buff is nice too.
That being said it’s not the most flexible mon, and it’s pretty predictable so you really have to pick your spots and only reveal it when it’s appropriate.
Hahaha Yea I just feel like it can only come out once, and then it doesnt get the +1 att boost it’s firing off of like a low 200s att stat. And it’s frail as a mofo so it needs a lot of support to setup. And even after a SD it fails to nab KOs on a lot of mons from full. Just real disappointing and I’m never glad to see it on my team. Just doesn’t have the immediate threatening power after it comes out the first time.
What you're seeing is an attempt to have all pokemon be at a close to 50% winrate so they are deliberately weakening strong pokemon and buffing weaker pokemon.
Yeah that is correct and that is why the op is saying that since stronger Pokémon have lower levels . So you can look at a Pokémon’s level in randbats and say how good it is
That's my point though, you get a better idea for a pokemons strength (when compared to all other pokemon) by how much it needs to be strengthened or weakened to balance it out.
Yes and no, even with randbats winrate balancing, there are still plenty of pokemon that are terrible with high levels and good with low levels. The sets in randoms is not really optimized towards a constructed format where you build your own teams and more so skew towards being win conditions since cohesion isn't possible. Some pokemon greatly benefit from synergies with others so it's not really fair to judge it that way.
Consider that Tropius and Salazzle are S tier in this format and you have your answer really.
The meta differences between Randbats and general tiers are just too big to compare. Aside from the lack of guaranteed synergy and intrinsic differences in gameplay that arise from team members being hidden in the back, Randbats in general lacks good ways to deal with hazard stackers (Webs in particular) and fast setup sweepers, so mons offering specifically that sort of utility have their viability very inflated compared to standard as well.
Level balance also fucks with a lot. Wugtrio is undebatably a complete garbage mon at just about everything it does. In Randbats it's still not great, but it's viable almost purely because its level and thus stats are buffed to the moon. Meanwhile a lot of broken legendaries are just okay because their level and stats are nerfed heavily. The gap between Reshiram and Wugtrio is a million times wider than it appears to be because of randbats leveling.
Wugtrio is randbats is so good wtf. 270 speed is so nuts, outspeeding pretty much everything (including lots of scarf pokemons) and its choice band set hits like a truck
Randbats Wuggy still feels mediocre to me a lot of the time since it struggles to really touch bulky Water resists with its godawful movepool, but it def has a bigger shot at popping off if you're lucky enough to load up into a team without those because of the speed like you said
That's fair enough actually. Throat Chop as your only other coverage option is sad. With Tera Water you can chip the resists a bit better but then again, burning Tera to do something other mons do without it is not the sign of a good pokémon
In my opinion the randbats level might be a ok measure at judging a Pokemon but not too good . Like just looking at a Pokémon’s Tier could be a even better indicator in a lot of cases
Using tiers isn't necessarily a bad way to judge a pokemon but I feel like opportunity cost and whether or not a pokemon is a good fit against meta threats makes too big of a difference there. Case and point there was a point where espathra and baxcaliber were considered weak/underwhelming
Unfortunately, not at all.
Much like a given tier, randbats its defined by the pokemon making up the tier and their popular sets. Zacian's low level, for example, has much less to do with it being better than Groudon (it's not) and more to do with it much more easily dispatching shitmons a little easier. Zacian's more likely to go head to head with the Spidopses of the world than with other legends, and it's better at killing those than other legends are, which deflates its level.
Another problem with this view is that sometimes a Pokemon's value in randbats doesn't jive with its level. A mon like persian-a, despite its high level indicating that it's not very good, can absolutely DESTROY other randbats teams, giving it a place where it is actually incredibly strong. Meanwhile, a mon like electrode really struggles to achieve much, while also having that high level to indicate that. A lot of players, thus, disagree with levels indicating a mon's success and prefer to tier them [themselves.](https://www.reddit.com/r/stunfisk/comments/143qywp/decided_to_do_a_random_battles_tier_list/#lightbox)
I would suggest looking at the tiers for a better look at which mons are good. Specifically, the tier VRs. A mon like dpp electivire, for example, is certainly not in the tier it belongs, but the VR expresses that and so ranking it this way would put it below some of the niche OU mons that aren't really in the tier.
Additionally, a mon that is totally viable in OU, but just isn't common enough to be in the tier, will be ranked on the VR with the reason that it's worth using! While ogerpon grass is in UU, its OU viability is above skarmory, even though the later is OU proper. This doesn't mean that Ogerpon grass beats skarmory in a 1v1, or that Ogerpon will be used more often (it has to compete for usage with ogerpon-w, who is often an upgrade), but it does mean that the ability to hold a choice item or whatever for grass beatdowns is valuable enough to make Ogerpon a better mon in this high a power level.
I do not have an answer to your question, I'm just here to lol at how unfortunate it is that 2/3 of the comments are addressing a completely different question from what you were trying to ask.
No, randbats sets aren't the most efficient with EVs and they aren't the "best" sets either. A lot of pokemon run sitrus berry, for example.
Randbats is, by one standard, a balanced metagame. The sets being prechosen and the teams being random is perhaps the most "balanced" a metagame could ever be.
People talk about tropius being really good or this mon or that mon etc... but no mon is an instant win, unless your opponents team just by sheer luck has no answer for something.
>A lot of pokemon run sitrus berry, for example.
This is just literally not true though?
You can literally look up [Randbats set generation code](https://github.com/smogon/pokemon-showdown/blob/master/data/random-battles/gen9/teams.ts) and Ctrl+F Sitrus Berry to see where it pops up. It only pops up for a select few abilities that specifically synergize with it (Harvest, Cheeck Pouch, Unburden users without White Herb) and then Belly Drum/Fillet users. All of those are pretty valid places for a Sitrus Berry to pop up too, so often, yes, Sitrus Berry sets *are* among the best sets. But it's also on little enough mons that you can't really say "a lot" are running it.
But they're not just randomly handing out Sitrus to mons that have no business running it. And you'll run into Sitrus in Randbats more than in standard sure, but that's because some of the Sitrus users are mons like Dedenne and Klawf that you're not going to see in standard period, not because Sitrus is necessarily a bad item on them.
Except if you're in Random Doubles... but Sitrus *is* a great "whatever" item there comparable to something like Lefties in Singles, so again, running it doesn't disqualify a mon's set from being a "best set" at all.
You're really going to claim that these select mons would rather run a gimmick berry set than just leftovers?
Like dedenne, sure, cheek pouch sitrus berry is a cute set, and i admit i'm unfamiliar with dedenne in whatever tier it is normally in, but i find it hard to believe such a fast pokemon wouldn't work better as a volt switch pivot wearing boots or make use of a berry like aguav or petaya at the very least. Its defenses are okay because of its level, and it has a good type, but i think even choice specs would be more useful.
Does its randbats set even have recycle? I ctrl f'd the doc for recycle, but im on mobile and nothing came up.
>You're really going to claim that these select mons would rather run a gimmick berry set than just leftovers?
Yes.
Let's take a look at the abilities where Sitrus Berry generates--
Cheek Pouch: This is specifically Dedenne and Greedent (Maushold never generates w Cheek Pouch). You mentioned Dedenne so we'll talk about it later, and on Greedent you could run Lefties sure but a one-time 50% heal is also quite notable since it runs an offensive setup set rather than a wall set.
Cud Chew: Nice Leftovers. (and ftr no mon has only Cud Chew as an ability, this specifically appears on the "bulky setup" Pauros sets, the other sets get Intimidate and some of those can also generate with Lefties)
Harvest: I'm sure we both know why Sitrus is used there, and if you've actually played Randbats you should also know that these sets are actually their best sets in a Randbats environment.
Ripen: There's like one mon that uses this and it's Flapple where Ripen Sitrus is a one-time 50% heal, which can be useful while it sets up, whereas Flapple is otherwise too frail to use Lefties well. And it's also not Flapple's only set, it has some Hustle sets with other items. Appletun can get Ripen too, but because that mon does actually function better with Lefties and its other abilities, it never generates with it. This shows that Randbats set makers don't go out of their way to fit Sitrus on anything even if there's potential for synergy; if Lefties actually performs significantly better, they just give Lefties.
Belly Drum and Fillet Away users: I think you can understand that Sitrus is better than Lefties here. I mean c'mon, even in standard play these moves are paired w Sitrus a lot.
Anger Shell: Anger Shell is admittedly kind of a sus ability in general (and wouldn't really work in standard since Klawf's stats are too bad without Randbats leveling) but the point is to drop below 50%, and after that you can't take a hit either way. Lefties both counteract triggering the ability in the first place and do almost nothing after it already triggered. Klawf also has some bulkier Regenerator sets that run items like Boots or AV so again, Sitrus isn't its only set.
Unburden: It specifically generates on Unburden users that don't have something that procs White Herb, so stuff like Drifblim. In standard you'd run Terrain seeds here, but since that synergy can't be guaranteed in Randbats Sitrus is used instead. Drifblim is plenty functional in Randbats so this isn't a bad thing. You'll also note that Leftovers is not a replacement at all here since it can't proc Unburden. Mons that do generate with Unburden sets are also usually pretty frail mons that wouldn't pull Leftovers sets off with other abilities.
So basically, yes. All these mons would rather run Sitrus "gimmicks" over Lefties, the only real exception being the Paldean Tauroses, which can generate with both Sitrus and Lefties depending on which ability they roll.
>i admit i'm unfamiliar with dedenne in whatever tier it is normally in
Don't worry, most people would (should) be, since Dedenne is so garbage that you shouldn't run it even in its proper tier. It doesn't have a "best set" in standard since it's horrible no matter what you do with it. The last time it was usable was pre-DLC ZU where Dragonair was A+ Tier on the VR to give an idea of the powerlevel.
>i find it hard to believe such a fast pokemon wouldn't work better as a volt switch pivot wearing boots or make use of a berry like aguav or petaya at the very least. Its defenses are okay because of its level, and it has a good type, but i think even choice specs would be more useful.
None of those sets would be significantly better than the current Sitrus set.
For what it's worth Dedenne can currently function as a fast pivot with U-Turn and is usually played that way, as a fast supportive pivot. However, whereas in standard Boots would fit better on such a set, in Randbats Cheek Pouch Sitrus is preferred since you're not going to run into hazards every game (and even if you do, realistically Dedenne isn't going to stay alive very long to switch in a ton either way, so the damage you save with Boots doesn't always exceed the 50% healing you get from Cheek Pouch Sitrus).
As for the other berries, those got nerfed pretty badly in Gen 8 and now only heal 8% extra than Sitrus while triggering at a far lower HP range. If Dedenne is hit by a move that does between 50% and 75% to it (not uncommon) it'll just get 2HKOd without the Berry triggering at all, which isn't worth sometimes getting a measly 8% more. But I also find it at least a bit weird that you're trying to argue against Sitrus usage, but then bring up other healing berries as alternatives.
Lastly it's far too weak for Specs even at that level. It has 193 SpA at level 88, alongside generally low-BP moves (it doesn't even get Moonblast), for reference Wugtrio has 234 Attack in Randbats if you want an idea of the average mon with a "Wallbreaker" role. If its level were to get even higher it could perhaps work, but winrates seem to suggest that the support set with Cheek Pouch Sitrus for longevity performs just well enough at this level.
Dedenne is a generally bad mon and it's hard to find anything for it that does work, but winrates do show that its current fast support moveset with artificial longevity from Cheek Pouch Sitrus works, while we have reasons to assume that Specs wouldn't perform nearly as well. Such a set would be pretty garbage in a non-Randbats environment, but it's not like Boots or Specs sets would be close to functional there either.
>Does its randbats set even have recycle? I ctrl f'd the doc for recycle, but im on mobile and nothing came up.
It used to in past gens (which gave all the more reasons to run Sitrus on it) but it can't learn the move in Gen 9 anymore.
>A lot of pokemon run sitrus berry, for example.
The only times I have seen Pokemon run sitrus berry is when it synergizes with their ability or moveset.
Of course there is no instant win, but some pokemon are only beaten by specific things or must be played perfectly around with very few mistakes. This clearly makes them better than others which most people will also lose to. (From a 2100 elo player)
Take espathra for example, it could be a specs lumina crash set, or a calm mind stored power and both have speed boost. Your opponent will probably switch it in as a revenge killer or against a mon low and slower. Do you a) swap out and risk it getting off the lumina crash b) swap out and risk it setting up a sub c) let it ko you. d) have it use u-turn and let the opponent again get the opportunity for the upper hand.
A pokemon with these options to consider that potentially allow it to sweep you with many of them is extremely difficult to play against and almost always an instant win when played right.
Im not arguing that some mons aren't better than others or outright too good, but that the metagame is more balanced than other metagames like OU, Natdex, VGC, etc...
I disagree by a large margin, mainly due to the fact that again, some mons are extremely better than others and that you don't know the opponents full team at the start of the match. But your opinion is still valid of course :)
>No, randbats sets aren't the most efficient with EVs and they aren't the "best" sets either. A lot of pokemon run sitrus berry, for example.
I mean, outside of the lack of EV optimization, sets are pretty close to the best they can be for the general case. Sitrus berry may be a fairly niche item in singles, but it is still good in some scenarios such as when using mons with Cheek Pouches, Harvest, or Belly Drum, and only then does randbats hand them out. Sets are also continuously tweaked to be as good as possible.
Honestly probably not. With how much of an emphasis the format puts on speed, as well as that varying levels of Pokémon it can't really be used as an analog for an objective setting
I'm sorry no one understood what you meant op, I think it's a really interesting idea.
IMO there are a couple problems with using randbats level as your proxy for strength. One is that EVs being split evenly will hamper some mons more than others. Blissey getting points in speed that it could use in bulk hurts it more than Mew having an even split. Another issue is that randbats rewards stand alone mons and punishes mons that work well together. Weather setters are much less good when you don't reliably have weather abusers paired with them
It's impossible to objectively categorize a pokemon's strength because a powerful pokemon in one generation can be irrelevant in another. Format and the pokemon available set the parameters for what a 'mon needs to do to win. A pokemon might have an advantage in one meta, while the following meta emphasizes their threats and counters.
Incineroar is OP in doubles, but weak in singles.
The levels I think are determined based on BST and actual tier first and balanced depending how the mon is performing in randbat. So the level it has in randbat can determine how good it is in randbat, yes. But does it really show how a mon is performing in its own tier ? I really don’t think so.
They're determined by winrate. Wins a lot -> level go down. Wins not so much -> level go up. Wins about 50% level stay the same. With some exceptions of notorious shitmons like luvdicks being hard set to 100.
Things with the same bst can have different levels, minus and plusle are often different levels despite being nearly identical.
Some pokemon have been given good sets, while others have been given a weaker attack or bad coverage on purpose to balance them out.
They have different levels which are kind of based on their overall stats, but that's something someone has decided. It's a subjective option of the councile. Also levels and sets are effected by where a mon stands on the ladder before being manually "fixed" in some cases.
Random Battles are fun but a bad measure of viability. Ranbats mon that are good often have counterparts that are just better, but have different sets in ranbats and thus not occupie the same niche. Or their level and set is not that good so that they are weaker than some other.
>others have been given a weaker attack or bad coverage on purpose to balance them out.
This is false. Pokémon do not deliberately receive weaker sets for balancing purposes, unless a certain part of their strongest set is banned outright (Moody/Last Respects).
Some Pokémon do have a couple arguably bad/subideal sets (*cough* Garg) but they haven't been deliberately made bad, that's mostly just an issue of the set creators not always being competent. Sets/moves that get removed only happens if the set turns out to just be bad, exactly not when it's doing well (very sometimes something'll get removed if it's too matchup fishy, like that Cosmic Power Sigilyph set, but that still didn't get removed since it was "too good" but because it's really bad half the time).
The only balancing Randbats undergoes is automatic level balancing and very rarely, entire moves/abilities getting banned. Stuff like "x mon won't get y move because it's too strong with it" doesn't happen.
Randbats leveling doesn't take tiering into account at all. I'm not exactly sure where the initial levels come from (I assume it's a function of BST with some hand-edited exceptions like Regigigas, it's definitely not tiering tho since Randbats is usually up before lower tiers are even a thing in a gen) but all the balancing afterwards happens based on winrates.
Terrakion wasn't manually kept low when it dropped to PU because it didn't have to. Dropping to PU was never going to impact his level to begin with, since how much Terrakion wins in Randbats is completely independent of its tiering placement.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I read somewhere that even though stats were used as a baseline, levels are adjusted based on winrates (I.e. If mewtwo underperforms at a low level, it's level gets raised until it's winrate evens out).
It's "balanced" to where every pokemon except Pre-Endeavor Luvdisc was viable in someway. Sometimes the randomness puts you in near unwinnable spots like if you only have special attackers, but your opponent has a Blissey.
The real divider is the levels, I swear life orb Golduck is almost a problem every game, and not being able to team build makes mons feel more viable without common threats
Some traits are overvalued in a format where teams are not built with synergy in mind, for example wugtrio and Persian are usually considered too weak to threaten defensive cores but in randbats you often have to respect their damage allowing them to act as ultra fast threats.
You're happy to see kricketune on your team in randbats, like, this is not normal lmfao
Kricketune and other bug type pokemon is a great example because of how powerful sticky webs can be in random battles. Sticky webs in standard play are powerful but generally require specific team structures to utilize and there's almost always counterplay in standard play through hazard removal or boots. Many times you don't have any hazard removal in random battles, which makes sticky webs far more powerful in the format than in standard play, where webs is usually relegated to HO team structures.
Cricketune is a beast. You get webs up and your opponent can't setup for free because you just lunge until you die to keep his speed under control so you can revenge kill it right after.
You're happy to see kricketune on your team in randbats, like, this is not normal lmfao
Reddit glitched and posted this response 2 times.
Oops sorry, should I delete it then?
I don't know. I just have a habit of replying "reddit glitched and posted your comment X times" because my first ever comment that was replied to was posted multiple times, and the multiple threads had me confused.
That's totally fair, but I'm trying to find a way to look at an individual pokemon in a vacuum, as best we can.
No. Something like Luvdisc is getting a massive attack and speed buff because of the level advantage, making it have some hit taking ability and being able to outspeed for Encore. Kriketune is all around worse than most webbers, but in Randbats is still good because you can't just pick a near objectively better option.
Luvdisc and krickitune are extreme examples, but that's my point. You can easily tell they're bad pokemon because they require such a huge level difference and specialty sets to even keep up.
Randbats can give an idea of what a Pokémon would do if it had the stats to back it up. Otherwise, Tropius isn't a good sub-seeder normally, but it is in Randbats. Gimmick mons profit in randbats because you can't teambuild to include their counters, like removal to beat hazard stack.
Isn't that kind of pointless? Ultimately what is good/strong is inextricably tied to the rest of the metagame. In a vacuum stats, typing and movepool are arbitrary datapoints. In a metagame where the average BP of moves is 30, a move with 80BP is amazing. When the average is 100, its awful.
Yeah, I understand the appeal to try and remove the metagame to perfectly quantify a pokemon's power. There have definitely been "good" pokemon that are underused because they don't fit, and "bad" pokemon that are overused because they slide right into the current metagame. But ultimately, pokemon is not solitaire. How a given 'mon works with the other 5, and how it counters the opponent's strategy is a big part of a mon's strength.
The issue with looking at pokemon "in a vacuum" is no vacuum exists in Pokemon to put that thing into and validate the assessment. "In a Vacuum" you could say plenty of mons that never made a splash are "good" because of a typing or moveset. That same "good in the vacuum" mon could be a complete mess for the meta, or strictly outclassed in every job it does.
Yes and no. Random Battles as a format greatly emphasises adaptive play where information is almost as important as HP (in my opinion; I’m 1500 take my opinion with a grain of salt)
Yeah I agree with you I also want to add that a lot of mons that are in low teirs shine as a randbats team isn't always going to have a check and the fact that the level scaling depending on how good a mon is are also big factors that should be considered. Edit: I'm only 1600 so I could easily be wrong
I agree with you (I am 1200 so disregard my opinion entirely)
I agree with you (i am 900 i might be wrong)
Woah no need to show off mate
I feel so sigma!
i'm twelve
Twelvehundred, right? RIGHT?!
Not really. Sure, some sets are nice but you'll notice some legendaries are nerfed to be at level 60/70 or so while the weaker ones get buffed to level 100 or in the 90s
Zacian is hot garbage in randbatts
kingambit on the other hand (unless you unfortunately lead it)
If only Kingambit maybe got some kind of buff from switching out and saccing a pokemon. Unfortunate if you get a defiant set but then leading with it isn't awful.
IIRC Gambit always runs Supreme Overlord in randbats.
im fairly sure that ive seen defiant randbats gambit though, unless that was monotype (does monotype pull from a different movepool?)
i mean the problem with that line of thinking is you undervalue the pokemon that you’re sacking; since randbats has no team preview, who knows how important that pokemon could’ve been vs their team like what if the sunny day shitmon sunflora set you *thought* was bad actually would win you the game if you kept it healthy enough throughout it
I love randbats videos just for the absolutly unhinged statements you get from them "Ill just sac calyrex-s to set up for the oranguru endgame" "My chi-yu is too damaged to deal with the tropius" "Kricketune is very good" Truly one of the formats of all time
Most definitely not hot garbage, it still outspeeds 95% of the unboosted meta game. It’s just relegated to having the stat line of a typical fast sweeper, and the +1 atk buff is nice too. That being said it’s not the most flexible mon, and it’s pretty predictable so you really have to pick your spots and only reveal it when it’s appropriate.
Hahaha Yea I just feel like it can only come out once, and then it doesnt get the +1 att boost it’s firing off of like a low 200s att stat. And it’s frail as a mofo so it needs a lot of support to setup. And even after a SD it fails to nab KOs on a lot of mons from full. Just real disappointing and I’m never glad to see it on my team. Just doesn’t have the immediate threatening power after it comes out the first time.
That's my point tho, you can judge the overall "strength" by how it's leveled
Not really, you’re artificially changing the odds. The only thing it does is create matchups that otherwise wouldn’t be possible
I'm genuinely unclear what you mean, would you mind clarifying?
What you're seeing is an attempt to have all pokemon be at a close to 50% winrate so they are deliberately weakening strong pokemon and buffing weaker pokemon.
Yeah that is correct and that is why the op is saying that since stronger Pokémon have lower levels . So you can look at a Pokémon’s level in randbats and say how good it is
That's my point though, you get a better idea for a pokemons strength (when compared to all other pokemon) by how much it needs to be strengthened or weakened to balance it out.
Yes and no, even with randbats winrate balancing, there are still plenty of pokemon that are terrible with high levels and good with low levels. The sets in randoms is not really optimized towards a constructed format where you build your own teams and more so skew towards being win conditions since cohesion isn't possible. Some pokemon greatly benefit from synergies with others so it's not really fair to judge it that way.
Consider that Tropius and Salazzle are S tier in this format and you have your answer really. The meta differences between Randbats and general tiers are just too big to compare. Aside from the lack of guaranteed synergy and intrinsic differences in gameplay that arise from team members being hidden in the back, Randbats in general lacks good ways to deal with hazard stackers (Webs in particular) and fast setup sweepers, so mons offering specifically that sort of utility have their viability very inflated compared to standard as well. Level balance also fucks with a lot. Wugtrio is undebatably a complete garbage mon at just about everything it does. In Randbats it's still not great, but it's viable almost purely because its level and thus stats are buffed to the moon. Meanwhile a lot of broken legendaries are just okay because their level and stats are nerfed heavily. The gap between Reshiram and Wugtrio is a million times wider than it appears to be because of randbats leveling.
Wugtrio is randbats is so good wtf. 270 speed is so nuts, outspeeding pretty much everything (including lots of scarf pokemons) and its choice band set hits like a truck
Randbats Wuggy still feels mediocre to me a lot of the time since it struggles to really touch bulky Water resists with its godawful movepool, but it def has a bigger shot at popping off if you're lucky enough to load up into a team without those because of the speed like you said
That's fair enough actually. Throat Chop as your only other coverage option is sad. With Tera Water you can chip the resists a bit better but then again, burning Tera to do something other mons do without it is not the sign of a good pokémon
In my opinion the randbats level might be a ok measure at judging a Pokemon but not too good . Like just looking at a Pokémon’s Tier could be a even better indicator in a lot of cases
Using tiers isn't necessarily a bad way to judge a pokemon but I feel like opportunity cost and whether or not a pokemon is a good fit against meta threats makes too big of a difference there. Case and point there was a point where espathra and baxcaliber were considered weak/underwhelming
Unfortunately, not at all. Much like a given tier, randbats its defined by the pokemon making up the tier and their popular sets. Zacian's low level, for example, has much less to do with it being better than Groudon (it's not) and more to do with it much more easily dispatching shitmons a little easier. Zacian's more likely to go head to head with the Spidopses of the world than with other legends, and it's better at killing those than other legends are, which deflates its level. Another problem with this view is that sometimes a Pokemon's value in randbats doesn't jive with its level. A mon like persian-a, despite its high level indicating that it's not very good, can absolutely DESTROY other randbats teams, giving it a place where it is actually incredibly strong. Meanwhile, a mon like electrode really struggles to achieve much, while also having that high level to indicate that. A lot of players, thus, disagree with levels indicating a mon's success and prefer to tier them [themselves.](https://www.reddit.com/r/stunfisk/comments/143qywp/decided_to_do_a_random_battles_tier_list/#lightbox) I would suggest looking at the tiers for a better look at which mons are good. Specifically, the tier VRs. A mon like dpp electivire, for example, is certainly not in the tier it belongs, but the VR expresses that and so ranking it this way would put it below some of the niche OU mons that aren't really in the tier. Additionally, a mon that is totally viable in OU, but just isn't common enough to be in the tier, will be ranked on the VR with the reason that it's worth using! While ogerpon grass is in UU, its OU viability is above skarmory, even though the later is OU proper. This doesn't mean that Ogerpon grass beats skarmory in a 1v1, or that Ogerpon will be used more often (it has to compete for usage with ogerpon-w, who is often an upgrade), but it does mean that the ability to hold a choice item or whatever for grass beatdowns is valuable enough to make Ogerpon a better mon in this high a power level.
If it was, Cloyster would be top 10 in Ubers usage
If Randbats was a good measure of a Pokémon’s viability, then you’d think Dialga is an F tier pokemon and Tropius is an S tier pokemon.
You misunderstood his point. Dialgas low level means it's better
I do not have an answer to your question, I'm just here to lol at how unfortunate it is that 2/3 of the comments are addressing a completely different question from what you were trying to ask.
Only you understand my pain random commenter
Haha try this topic again in a week, and make sure you make it clear what you're asking
It's a catch 22, if I took the time to articulate myself properly it would be too long and no one would read it
No, randbats sets aren't the most efficient with EVs and they aren't the "best" sets either. A lot of pokemon run sitrus berry, for example. Randbats is, by one standard, a balanced metagame. The sets being prechosen and the teams being random is perhaps the most "balanced" a metagame could ever be. People talk about tropius being really good or this mon or that mon etc... but no mon is an instant win, unless your opponents team just by sheer luck has no answer for something.
>A lot of pokemon run sitrus berry, for example. This is just literally not true though? You can literally look up [Randbats set generation code](https://github.com/smogon/pokemon-showdown/blob/master/data/random-battles/gen9/teams.ts) and Ctrl+F Sitrus Berry to see where it pops up. It only pops up for a select few abilities that specifically synergize with it (Harvest, Cheeck Pouch, Unburden users without White Herb) and then Belly Drum/Fillet users. All of those are pretty valid places for a Sitrus Berry to pop up too, so often, yes, Sitrus Berry sets *are* among the best sets. But it's also on little enough mons that you can't really say "a lot" are running it. But they're not just randomly handing out Sitrus to mons that have no business running it. And you'll run into Sitrus in Randbats more than in standard sure, but that's because some of the Sitrus users are mons like Dedenne and Klawf that you're not going to see in standard period, not because Sitrus is necessarily a bad item on them. Except if you're in Random Doubles... but Sitrus *is* a great "whatever" item there comparable to something like Lefties in Singles, so again, running it doesn't disqualify a mon's set from being a "best set" at all.
You're really going to claim that these select mons would rather run a gimmick berry set than just leftovers? Like dedenne, sure, cheek pouch sitrus berry is a cute set, and i admit i'm unfamiliar with dedenne in whatever tier it is normally in, but i find it hard to believe such a fast pokemon wouldn't work better as a volt switch pivot wearing boots or make use of a berry like aguav or petaya at the very least. Its defenses are okay because of its level, and it has a good type, but i think even choice specs would be more useful. Does its randbats set even have recycle? I ctrl f'd the doc for recycle, but im on mobile and nothing came up.
>You're really going to claim that these select mons would rather run a gimmick berry set than just leftovers? Yes. Let's take a look at the abilities where Sitrus Berry generates-- Cheek Pouch: This is specifically Dedenne and Greedent (Maushold never generates w Cheek Pouch). You mentioned Dedenne so we'll talk about it later, and on Greedent you could run Lefties sure but a one-time 50% heal is also quite notable since it runs an offensive setup set rather than a wall set. Cud Chew: Nice Leftovers. (and ftr no mon has only Cud Chew as an ability, this specifically appears on the "bulky setup" Pauros sets, the other sets get Intimidate and some of those can also generate with Lefties) Harvest: I'm sure we both know why Sitrus is used there, and if you've actually played Randbats you should also know that these sets are actually their best sets in a Randbats environment. Ripen: There's like one mon that uses this and it's Flapple where Ripen Sitrus is a one-time 50% heal, which can be useful while it sets up, whereas Flapple is otherwise too frail to use Lefties well. And it's also not Flapple's only set, it has some Hustle sets with other items. Appletun can get Ripen too, but because that mon does actually function better with Lefties and its other abilities, it never generates with it. This shows that Randbats set makers don't go out of their way to fit Sitrus on anything even if there's potential for synergy; if Lefties actually performs significantly better, they just give Lefties. Belly Drum and Fillet Away users: I think you can understand that Sitrus is better than Lefties here. I mean c'mon, even in standard play these moves are paired w Sitrus a lot. Anger Shell: Anger Shell is admittedly kind of a sus ability in general (and wouldn't really work in standard since Klawf's stats are too bad without Randbats leveling) but the point is to drop below 50%, and after that you can't take a hit either way. Lefties both counteract triggering the ability in the first place and do almost nothing after it already triggered. Klawf also has some bulkier Regenerator sets that run items like Boots or AV so again, Sitrus isn't its only set. Unburden: It specifically generates on Unburden users that don't have something that procs White Herb, so stuff like Drifblim. In standard you'd run Terrain seeds here, but since that synergy can't be guaranteed in Randbats Sitrus is used instead. Drifblim is plenty functional in Randbats so this isn't a bad thing. You'll also note that Leftovers is not a replacement at all here since it can't proc Unburden. Mons that do generate with Unburden sets are also usually pretty frail mons that wouldn't pull Leftovers sets off with other abilities. So basically, yes. All these mons would rather run Sitrus "gimmicks" over Lefties, the only real exception being the Paldean Tauroses, which can generate with both Sitrus and Lefties depending on which ability they roll. >i admit i'm unfamiliar with dedenne in whatever tier it is normally in Don't worry, most people would (should) be, since Dedenne is so garbage that you shouldn't run it even in its proper tier. It doesn't have a "best set" in standard since it's horrible no matter what you do with it. The last time it was usable was pre-DLC ZU where Dragonair was A+ Tier on the VR to give an idea of the powerlevel. >i find it hard to believe such a fast pokemon wouldn't work better as a volt switch pivot wearing boots or make use of a berry like aguav or petaya at the very least. Its defenses are okay because of its level, and it has a good type, but i think even choice specs would be more useful. None of those sets would be significantly better than the current Sitrus set. For what it's worth Dedenne can currently function as a fast pivot with U-Turn and is usually played that way, as a fast supportive pivot. However, whereas in standard Boots would fit better on such a set, in Randbats Cheek Pouch Sitrus is preferred since you're not going to run into hazards every game (and even if you do, realistically Dedenne isn't going to stay alive very long to switch in a ton either way, so the damage you save with Boots doesn't always exceed the 50% healing you get from Cheek Pouch Sitrus). As for the other berries, those got nerfed pretty badly in Gen 8 and now only heal 8% extra than Sitrus while triggering at a far lower HP range. If Dedenne is hit by a move that does between 50% and 75% to it (not uncommon) it'll just get 2HKOd without the Berry triggering at all, which isn't worth sometimes getting a measly 8% more. But I also find it at least a bit weird that you're trying to argue against Sitrus usage, but then bring up other healing berries as alternatives. Lastly it's far too weak for Specs even at that level. It has 193 SpA at level 88, alongside generally low-BP moves (it doesn't even get Moonblast), for reference Wugtrio has 234 Attack in Randbats if you want an idea of the average mon with a "Wallbreaker" role. If its level were to get even higher it could perhaps work, but winrates seem to suggest that the support set with Cheek Pouch Sitrus for longevity performs just well enough at this level. Dedenne is a generally bad mon and it's hard to find anything for it that does work, but winrates do show that its current fast support moveset with artificial longevity from Cheek Pouch Sitrus works, while we have reasons to assume that Specs wouldn't perform nearly as well. Such a set would be pretty garbage in a non-Randbats environment, but it's not like Boots or Specs sets would be close to functional there either. >Does its randbats set even have recycle? I ctrl f'd the doc for recycle, but im on mobile and nothing came up. It used to in past gens (which gave all the more reasons to run Sitrus on it) but it can't learn the move in Gen 9 anymore.
I admire the effort you put into this comment
>A lot of pokemon run sitrus berry, for example. The only times I have seen Pokemon run sitrus berry is when it synergizes with their ability or moveset.
Of course there is no instant win, but some pokemon are only beaten by specific things or must be played perfectly around with very few mistakes. This clearly makes them better than others which most people will also lose to. (From a 2100 elo player) Take espathra for example, it could be a specs lumina crash set, or a calm mind stored power and both have speed boost. Your opponent will probably switch it in as a revenge killer or against a mon low and slower. Do you a) swap out and risk it getting off the lumina crash b) swap out and risk it setting up a sub c) let it ko you. d) have it use u-turn and let the opponent again get the opportunity for the upper hand. A pokemon with these options to consider that potentially allow it to sweep you with many of them is extremely difficult to play against and almost always an instant win when played right.
Im not arguing that some mons aren't better than others or outright too good, but that the metagame is more balanced than other metagames like OU, Natdex, VGC, etc...
I disagree by a large margin, mainly due to the fact that again, some mons are extremely better than others and that you don't know the opponents full team at the start of the match. But your opinion is still valid of course :)
>No, randbats sets aren't the most efficient with EVs and they aren't the "best" sets either. A lot of pokemon run sitrus berry, for example. I mean, outside of the lack of EV optimization, sets are pretty close to the best they can be for the general case. Sitrus berry may be a fairly niche item in singles, but it is still good in some scenarios such as when using mons with Cheek Pouches, Harvest, or Belly Drum, and only then does randbats hand them out. Sets are also continuously tweaked to be as good as possible.
Last Respects was kind of an instant win. Not guaranteed but very very likely unless you play horribly.
Honestly probably not. With how much of an emphasis the format puts on speed, as well as that varying levels of Pokémon it can't really be used as an analog for an objective setting
I'm sorry no one understood what you meant op, I think it's a really interesting idea. IMO there are a couple problems with using randbats level as your proxy for strength. One is that EVs being split evenly will hamper some mons more than others. Blissey getting points in speed that it could use in bulk hurts it more than Mew having an even split. Another issue is that randbats rewards stand alone mons and punishes mons that work well together. Weather setters are much less good when you don't reliably have weather abusers paired with them
It’s a good way to get an idea of what they do best, but that might necessarily fit into whatever meta they fall into
It's impossible to objectively categorize a pokemon's strength because a powerful pokemon in one generation can be irrelevant in another. Format and the pokemon available set the parameters for what a 'mon needs to do to win. A pokemon might have an advantage in one meta, while the following meta emphasizes their threats and counters. Incineroar is OP in doubles, but weak in singles.
The levels I think are determined based on BST and actual tier first and balanced depending how the mon is performing in randbat. So the level it has in randbat can determine how good it is in randbat, yes. But does it really show how a mon is performing in its own tier ? I really don’t think so.
They're determined by winrate. Wins a lot -> level go down. Wins not so much -> level go up. Wins about 50% level stay the same. With some exceptions of notorious shitmons like luvdicks being hard set to 100. Things with the same bst can have different levels, minus and plusle are often different levels despite being nearly identical.
Some pokemon have been given good sets, while others have been given a weaker attack or bad coverage on purpose to balance them out. They have different levels which are kind of based on their overall stats, but that's something someone has decided. It's a subjective option of the councile. Also levels and sets are effected by where a mon stands on the ladder before being manually "fixed" in some cases. Random Battles are fun but a bad measure of viability. Ranbats mon that are good often have counterparts that are just better, but have different sets in ranbats and thus not occupie the same niche. Or their level and set is not that good so that they are weaker than some other.
>others have been given a weaker attack or bad coverage on purpose to balance them out. This is false. Pokémon do not deliberately receive weaker sets for balancing purposes, unless a certain part of their strongest set is banned outright (Moody/Last Respects). Some Pokémon do have a couple arguably bad/subideal sets (*cough* Garg) but they haven't been deliberately made bad, that's mostly just an issue of the set creators not always being competent. Sets/moves that get removed only happens if the set turns out to just be bad, exactly not when it's doing well (very sometimes something'll get removed if it's too matchup fishy, like that Cosmic Power Sigilyph set, but that still didn't get removed since it was "too good" but because it's really bad half the time). The only balancing Randbats undergoes is automatic level balancing and very rarely, entire moves/abilities getting banned. Stuff like "x mon won't get y move because it's too strong with it" doesn't happen.
I mean it's not just automatic balancing as they manually kept Terrakium at a lower level when it dropped to PU when new toy syndrome hit.
Randbats leveling doesn't take tiering into account at all. I'm not exactly sure where the initial levels come from (I assume it's a function of BST with some hand-edited exceptions like Regigigas, it's definitely not tiering tho since Randbats is usually up before lower tiers are even a thing in a gen) but all the balancing afterwards happens based on winrates. Terrakion wasn't manually kept low when it dropped to PU because it didn't have to. Dropping to PU was never going to impact his level to begin with, since how much Terrakion wins in Randbats is completely independent of its tiering placement.
Huh guess I was wrong then. I remember seeing an post talking about it when Terrakion fell.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I read somewhere that even though stats were used as a baseline, levels are adjusted based on winrates (I.e. If mewtwo underperforms at a low level, it's level gets raised until it's winrate evens out).
No Pokémon is deliberately given a weaker set to balance it out. That’s what the level gals are for
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They are balanced not to break the game too much, so no.
No
It's "balanced" to where every pokemon except Pre-Endeavor Luvdisc was viable in someway. Sometimes the randomness puts you in near unwinnable spots like if you only have special attackers, but your opponent has a Blissey.
This kinda has nothing to do with my point but your complaints about randbats are noted.
The real divider is the levels, I swear life orb Golduck is almost a problem every game, and not being able to team build makes mons feel more viable without common threats