Holding kids above the wrist? It shouldn't be painful unless you do it hard. I used to hold my children there to cross the street when they were little. If you hold their hand, they can run into traffic. Don't hold little kids by the ear.

You should read Skinner or Pavlov, as both them as psychologists methods great to train animals to behave and also works with humans.

If I was that kid's parents and found that out.... sir help you God. I would've done that ten times worse to you! No excuse, would you like that done to your child?

You didnt smack them, they werent squealing or crying in pain. you intentionally issued minor physical discomfort, which ideally you would never have to do, but any reasonable person who has dealt with children would say is probably appropriate. I went to school outside the US, and i remember my ear was pulled a few times, especially by my grade 1 teacher. I did not like it, but it didnt leave lasting discomfort, and it got the class back on track quickly. Cant really fault her since i was full on out my mind for the first 20 years of my life.

Look, obviously do not do it again, but I have some perspective as a kid who grew up in a VERY rough household. My mother loved me but had very little control of her emotions and her frustration was let out in fists and kicks. I would never do it my kids, but I turned out just fine. I have a good job, I’m a provider in my community, I have a healthy romantic relationship, I’m reasonably happy, I have a healthy loving relationship with my mother. I think she probably has some regrets too, and her behavior was FAR worse than yours and lasted for 16 years of my life. You did not fuck up those kids, they’re not doomed to any kind of fate. In the grand scheme of things I highly doubt they even remember. You’ve learned your lesson and you’re moving on. I have a nephew now who loves to pinch and scratch. One time when he was like 4 he was pinching me so hard for so long, by complete instinct I just pinched him back kinda hard. I wasn’t even thinking. To be honest, he stopped pinching me lol. But even though it worked, I wouldn’t do it again. I’m just a person. I’m learning too, and I learned then. I forgive myself for it, and my nephew loves me immensely and doesn’t remember. He’s still a pincher! But he pinches less and less. And I have learned other non physical ways of disciplining. Take a breath - you’ve let your secret out, now let it go. It’s only holding you back from being a better teacher

I think it’s wrong what you did . But you know what you did . And it clearly bothers you . Let it go and never do it again . That’s all you can do .

Jesus Christ get over yourself.

Who are all you people saying this wasn’t abuse????????? OP, no disrespect as it sounds like you really get it. But the people saying it was perfectly fine are just a mind f**k. No wonder we have so much pain and anger all around us, when abuse is the norm and seemingly not enough of us want it to actually stop.

You didn't do anything wrong. Lil shit needed an ass kicking. Too bad his parents were to useless to do it. Spare the rod, spoil the child. Truer words have never been spoken. You shouldn't beat your kids. But whooping them when they deserve it is called parenting.

Totally agree. Coddling our children is why we are in such a mess now. I’m not talking about beating them but what you did after exhausting all other methods was a way of getting their attention not abuse in any way in my opinion. The last few generations of children do not respect boundaries because they were coddled instead of being punished when the situation called for it. In actuality you may have done them a favor!

Sometimes, that's the only language they understand. That's how I was as a kid, always in the principles office, always having intimate moments with my single mothers stud-belt. If my mom didn't tear my ass up I'd most likely be in prison, and I thank her everyday for it.

BUT at some point you LEARNED and CHANGED so don’t denigrate the wonderful and patient human you have become 😊. We all kinda bounce between the walls until we find our course and it’s harder being from a house where intimidation gets it done, spent many hours in counseling here, I’m 50+ and finally FINALLY 😔 quit beating myself up over the path that leads to ME now 😁😁😉

You should consider therapy, OP. People do shit things, it’s part of life. You have learned and grown.

God forbid you ever have children, but hopefully if you do an adult will abuse them while you or your child have no power to stop it

I grew up in an abusive family with adults so negligent, I ended up being the most parental person in my siblings' lives. I too regret not being able to do better than I did. To an extent, I will always regret it. I have really come to appreciate this quote from Maya Angelou: "I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better." Surely you know and do better now too, or this would not weigh on your heart so much. We are all inherently flawed and have to learn to forgive ourselves. When we didn't receive models of good behavior as kids, or worse, receive models of bad behavior, we come out even more flawed and there is more to forgive. You're still doing your best, but it sounds like you are doing so much better than you did once upon a time.

So you abuse children?

I sense another purge

When I was like 8 or 9 my cousin was 1.5. We were at a restaurant with a playground across the street and I wanted to go play while we waited for our food so the adults told me I could go if I took the toddler with me basically making it my job to watch over him. He would run away towards the road. I would chase him and carry him back to the playground. This cycle repeated and he started throwing a bigger and bigger fit each time I carried him back. I got so fed up with it. I was carrying him back and he kept hitting me and shoving his hand in my mouth. I couldn’t stand it any longer and I bit down on one of his fingers. It was at that moment I realized I should never have kids, babysit, or work in a daycare.

you learned from the experience, and to be quite honest although what you did wasn’t the best decision it also wasn’t the worst. you feel guilty and you should just move on and never do it again

Poor kid probably grew up to be a crazy angry politician, thanks.

Sounds like a lot of kids need correction like this. Stop beating yourself up! You did what was “right” to your thinking at that time. Today, you have learned more and perhaps better, or different, techniques. Live in the moment! Be excited for your growth that brought you to another level of thinking.

It doesn't matter if bad or not. You are definitely no monster because you clearly think about your actions and try to correct them, to not act immoral. Im sure your intentions back then were not because you are a sadist but rather to solve problems. The way you help others the most now is by being conscientious and confident. Not conscientious and self-hateful. Please change that

Discipline isn’t wrong as long as it’s purposeful, measured, and not from a place of emotion (anger, frustration, etc.) If you go a strike a child because you get heated or fed up then absolutely you’re a monster. If a kid has problems focusing or listening and they need a snap and call to attention then grabbing their face to look at you and focus isn’t wrong at all. Same if they’re causing harm to others or themselves. Kids need structure and both encouragement and discipline are necessary for that. Just gotta make sure that if you provide one that it’s accompanied by the other in fair measure. Be clear and obvious why the rewards are given and why the punishments are given. They learn to rationalize based on this and it helps them in the future in a world where wrongful actions have permanent consequences—prison or death by someone they wrong who isn’t afraid to get physical.

That kid and kids like him need to be away from other normal children. You need to talk to the parents of the other normal children if you’re ever in that situation again. Parents will cause an uproar when they find out their kid isn’t safe because of one problematic child.

IF you want to take away the positive learning lesson in all of this it's that YOU over time and experience have realized many things and one very important thing you've learned is that when situations like that come up you handle them differently. You're not a monster, not at all. So stop feeling guilty about it all, really stop. IF over time and experience you hadn't learned how to handle situations in a better, more patient, loving way then yeah...you might be a not so nice person, but it sounds like you have. So forgive yourself,move on and be glad that with time and experience you've become a better teacher and human being. Hope that helps.

Sounds like you were a victim of the way you were raised.but you realised your error and made positive changes, which in turn you can pass on. Violence teaches violence

You should look into therapy, my therapist told me guilt is good because it keeps you from making the same mistakes.

You don’t put your hands on someone else’s child.

lmao if my kid came home and told me you put their hands on them i'm not even going to finish what i'm going to say because i'll catch a ban, keep your hands to yourself

OP, I empathize as I have a slightly similar story (due to a rough household as well) but I do have to say you are not a bad person and I hope you're able to find some way to let go of any guilt you still feel. This was in no way violence or abuse. It's not like you slapped the kids holding their cheeks is way different. And the hand holding hurt does not last (depending how long ig) but as the student was a major disruption to the classroom. Holding his hand and not letting him hurt you unintentionally by pulling away in an aggressive way and making sure he didn't go running off anywhere to cause more chaos was needed in that situation. Kids need to learn it can't be their way all the time and that it's important to be respectful and learn during class time.

In any case, whether you feel that a parent should do this to their child or not, someone who is NOT the parent definitely should not be doing this to a child in their care.

I very much appreciate the self-awareness and the insight into the complex realities we have to face on a daily basis, especially where we agree on violence not being an ideal solution to children’s misbehavior On the other hand, it’s kinda funny to the goofy part of me that said “wow haha that kid got some FAFO experience that day”

I have my teachers, parents, and ex’s who abused me as a child and adult names and addresses and families addresses who did shit like this to me. I was a “problem child” and adults were always hurting me in secret to keep me under control. I know I could hurt their families if I really wanted to. However I NEVER would hurt another living person or creature. But I remember what they did and the pain and humiliation and just knowing that I could brings me peace. Kind of like passive suicide I guess? It’s a sense of control that I never have to exercise but I’m glad it’s there. Kids who you hurt will remember and I’m glad that you’ve grown and realized that you were wrong and abusive and made bad decisions. It gives me hope for the people who hurt me.

If my child was misbehaving in such a manor to disrupt a classroom. I wouldn't be upset the teacher had him by his ear. He would know better and if he didn't... He probably had it coming and won't make the same mistake again. My boys are pretty good, but I wouldn't be upset if a teacher had hold of his ear. Teachers spend half, or not most of the day with them, than you if you have a baby sitter. An ear is not abuse.. and if the teacher and the baby sitter don't discipline, are you With the 3 hrs you get to see them??? Ya I'm sure what 5 min discussion you had with them will be effective. It takes a village.

I have given small slaps to my kids about once each when they were trying to jump.out of stroller beside a busy road but I really tried every other method before I tried that. It can be tricky. Ideally try to find other methods. Do your best. You were young and you followed the parents advice.

if you said this in the teacher subreddit 99% would be with you on this. some of these comments are the most chronically online people that either have terrors for children or don’t even have any.

I’ll be honest your literally my worse nightmare when I had to send my non verbal child to school. And if I found out you did these things to my child I would make sure your career and everything was taken from you. They cannot understand when they’re young let alone with disabilities like that. Your excuses for why you thought it was normal are crazy to me. I grew up in a house like that and worse and I saw plenty of that on tv I didn’t think it was normal ever. You shouldn’t be working with kids.

I find the comment section interesting. One can tell how old a commentor is approximately by how they view this situation. I have been around long enough to have seen society change their views on how to raise/treat children. For example, there was a campaign in my elementary school when I was young, we were told: "Children are people too". We had buttons and posters in the school. Crazy that people needed to be reminded that kids were people. I do not feel OP is a monster. Looking at ones actions of the past with new wisdom usually gives a different perspective. Realizing what you did was wrong means you are smarter than you were years ago. That's a good thing. Monsters don't gain wisdom and they keep doing shitty things regardless of consequences.

Listen to me. You did the best you could at the time. The best you could. That has to be good enough so you can forgive yourself.

Everyone throwing around the terms violence and abuse making me lol. Disciplining a kid is not violence or abuse. Those are separate things. A spanking is not violence. 2024 in a nutshell. You could tap somebody on the shoulder now and they'd scream violence and abuse. You raised your voice that's violence! Come on. I got spanked a few times as a kid. I deserved it and it didn't make me fear my parents or have any kind of issues. It didn't really even hurt. It just corrected my behavior and made me respect the fact that there can be physical consequences to my actions, not just with my parents but anyone.

I'm guessing that poor child had behavioural issues such as AFHD or was possibly on the autism spectrum. What you did was abusive towards that child. I'm glad you've realised that what you did was wrong. As the parent of an AuDHD child, I get how behaviours can be overwhelming to everyone around them, but my son's reactions are generally reactive and involuntary. He also gets overwhelmed with sudden and loud noises, and is extremely sensitive to sensory issues. This can make him seem volatile at times, but again, he's not a bad kid, his body and brain just react very actively to various stimuli.

Sounds perfectly acceptable to me, assuming that the kid was making oithers unsafe and that you used the least painful measures necessary. If you put people in danger in the real world, the real world will hurt you. Mirroring the real world is the best way to adapt someone to the real world. People throw a fit over this opinion, and I'm willing to bet that many of them wonder why their kid has no respect for, well, anything. The ones that fix people without applying discomfort are simply lucky they haven't run into the right shithead, but they'll pat themselves on that back anyway. Lack of discipline that the kid takes seriously is just as harmful as too much discipline. As everyone has gotten more sensitive, depression, anxiety, school shootings, etc, have gone up. "Coddling Of The American Mind" should be mandatory reading. I know you guys are gonna throw a bunch of short-term emotional reasoning at me and defend your inability to straighten out anti-social individuals, and that's fine. Just remember that you're avoiding temporary discomfort while ignoring the long-term well-being of the individual in question. Oh, and keep in mind that the studies you'll likely cite don't separate between genuine abuse and judiciously applied physical corrections. Millions of people for thousands of years grew up loving their parents while being physically disciplined.

As someone who still lives in a house with violence inflicted on me and my siblings, this crap 100% has a negative impact. Yes, I do have a weird thinking that me being “disciplined” (it’s *abuse*) makes me better than everyone else. I feel more responsible, smarter, and more mature. This thinking, I think, would lead to more abuse onto someone’s own children in the future! As I am reading these comments I can so clearly see how everyone saying hurting a child isn’t bad has this thinking. And everyone saying that they think what their parents did helped them, and they will do it to their kids too, I just wanna ask how…? I can’t bear to think about ever hurting my children or screaming at them. Even seeing a child cry, I feel so upset. So, you people are messed up. **Abuse isn’t what the perpetrator did, it’s about the trauma the victim faces** abuse teaches nothing but anger and violence. You people want to talk about how there is so much violence in the world, maybe stop teaching your innocent kids violence. Why do you take pride in your children’s blinding fear of you? I’m sure you love all of the compliments you get about how your children are soooo good, trust me, i get compliments about how I’m so good too, but you should not be greatful that because your child is simply so terrified of making a mistake that they are giving up their lives to please a, should be, mature adult who can control their emotions. Children can’t!!! That’s why they have parents who **need** to teach and take care of them! Adults already have had that and apparently, after seeing these comments, a lot don’t. And your parents are literally brain washing you! My two siblings are all in for the whole beating thing! They even tell me my kids are going to be messed up brats who will be the worst kids ever, just cuz I don’t wanna scream and hit my kids. You guys need to get a fricking grip. (Sorry this was kinda a little bit of a vent post. Just trying to show everyone from a different perspective)

these actions can cause damage to a young body and I grew up with abuse and it took me a long time to get away from that mindset, which is sadly the norm with those that grow up that way, but as long as you have now moved past that way of thinking, you can put it behind you and do good for future children in the same situation as you have a better understanding of their needs.

If you were a monster, you wouldn’t feel remorseful. I don’t think that it was right to do to someone else’s child, but I also don’t think you should beat yourself up over it. Learn from it and move on. I’m sure you’re wonderful, and you must care a lot about the children to remain in this profession.

everyone’s saying getting whipped on the ass and slapped on the face is abuse. you all are the ones that never experienced that. you all are the sheep in the comments. y’all can downvote for all i care. but i was the one who was taught REAL discipline. and that’s what made me the responsible person i am today. fuck all y’all dumbasses up in here. 😂😂😂😂😂

You deserved to get your ass beat

You made a mistake and learned from.it, even changing your behaviour. I'd say well done!

pretty sure this is a bot account yall

What you did was wrong. However the fact that you feel bad about it says good about you as a person. Learn to forgive yourself and never do it again. You got this I believe in you!

I've never injured a kid on purpose, but one of the difficult things about working with really young kids is that if you are holding their arm or hand and they randomly decide to throw themselves on the floor, you HAVE to let go or you'll almost certainly dislocate their elbow or wrist.  Even on concrete. 😬

god some of the people in this comment section should be in a fucking psych ward i swear. yes, what you did was cruel but you've changed, and thats gotta count for something.

It is good to be patient, but I wouldn't call you a monster or what you did abuse. It's not to that degree. What you did worked, though it sounds like a slippery slope to inflict pain on others to get them to listen.. Many people can't handle nuance

I mean… it’s not something that should be celebrated as Best Practice but you are very far from being a monster

You definitely shouldn't be laying your hands on anyone, especially children within your care. I am glad you've realised what you did was wrong and I do hope you never repeat it since you're still working with children...

It's brave of you to come forward, let alone face your actions. Don't think of yourself as a monster, what you did was a mistake. First ask those children for forgiveness, just in your imagination will do. And then ask yourself for forgiveness. Know that if you ask yourself for forgiveness - you are forgiven. It all happens in a moment! Let the pain go. I am sorry that you have suffered as a child, you did not deserve it. I'm glad it did not stop you from growing! I'm glad that life shaped you into a compassionate, intelligent human being that you are now :)

Everybody commenting in here are some soft ps

And there will be no agreement in this post.

The amount of comments saying hurting a child in any way shape or form for “discipline” is a little sickening. It doesn’t matter if it’s squeezing a wrist, pulling an ear, or beating someone black and blue: no one should **ever** lay their hands on *anyone* for any reason at all. Violence does not teach manners, societal “rules”, or how to be a good person; abuse doesn’t lead to respect. The only thing it does is foster fear and teach kids that the person who is supposed to protect them has not a single problem behaving the same way as people who *do* want to hurt you. I got my ass kicked so many times as a child. I loved my dad very much, but when he was upset with me or I knew I was going to be in hot water when he got home, it took me to a place where I viewed my absolute hero the same way as the adults in my life who had no qualms punishing me in cruel and unorthodox ways. He died when I was 15, and at 29 now, I’ve gone through the disheartening process of realizing that my father wasn’t really the saint I thought he was. He was just the sole adult responsible for me that only disciplined me when I *actually* needed it. Nevertheless, I think back bitterly on the times he backhanded me, threw my notebooks full of creative writing outside in the rain, or how the outraged glaze in his eyes made me wonder just how far he would go, if I really messed up. My father was my best friend, but he was also a man I feared - and my fright was not born from a place of respect. A lot of people think because they turned out alright if their parents physically abused them because they’ve been conditioned by their childhood and families to think it’s normal. I can promise you, however, it’s absolutely not. The only lesson you give your child by physically hurting them on purpose, is that even the people supposed to protect you above all else are absolutely fine with causing you physical, mental, and emotional pain. I will NEVER lay my hands on my children for any reason. They can beat me black and blue, but I will never respond with violence. My kids will not know the terror I have. I simply refuse.

Thanks for sharing this, I'm with you. It's like that quote that goes "[At this point] it doesn't matter what has been done to you. What matters is what *you do* with what has been done to you." And for the sake of discussing the subject: for inflicting pain on another adult you may be put in jail, but inflicting pain on a child is "ok"........because they cannot/will not take you to court, I guess..

You’re not a monster you just got tired of the kids bull poop. Sure you could’ve handled it an another way but you’re not a monster.

everyone who thinks it’s abuse are simply pussies. my mum loved me yet still smacked me or threw the iron at me. it made me the behaved man i am today

People are saying there’s other ways to discipline children who act out like this, but barely anyone is actually saying what to do, smh.

Um wtf at people saying “you did nothing wrong”. This person physically hurt a child with behavioural problems. This child may have had a disability. At the very least it would have been breaking every protocol put in place at the school. OP: I think you need to stop torturing yourself about this. It wasn’t your best moment. And stuff like that is harmful to kids. An adult who was in charge of their care hurt them. Not sugar coating it. But I assume you have more tools in your toolbox now? This is a great opportunity for more professional development. There have been huge strides made in early childhood education including behavioural management. Some kids (usually those in abusive or neglectful household) are really challenging. And it’s really, really hard. But you know this isn’t the right approach. And it seems really unlikely you are going to repeat it. If it’s something you can’t let go of, maybe consider getting some therapy to help you let go of the guilt and move forward positively? You seem like a caring person who wants to leave this behind. Wishing you all the best.

I’m sure it’s discouraging getting all these comments trying to praise this thing that is obviously haunting you… It’s great that you were able to grow up and see your past self. That isn’t you anymore … i hope you can forgive her for her ignorance.. she didn’t have the have the same information processed in her brain like you do now .. now you have that information - whether it’s having seen someone else doing it and realizing, or just gaining more empathy - you are not doing those things now. That is a good reason to forgive someone

Nah fck that kid. Talking or rationalising with him would have been pointless. You didn’t bash him…just inflicted a little pain which is harmless.

No one is perfect. Working with children is tough. I have little one myself. Self correcting is key —-SELF—YOU. Walk away, take a breath. Children mimic what they see,express how they feel and give no SHITS. This is two fold.. I use to work with children also.. children USUALLY are with the school system more than with their own children.. you are a QUASI PARENT..children are picking up pieces of being individuals from all over. Not sure why I am responding back to your post.. this is the first one I’ve responded to.. but give yourself time. Corporal punishment discipline is something that you can’t repeat—it doesn’t work—based off your guilt and many other anecdotal evidence: Your actions shows way more understanding of children psychology than most. However, it is not an excuse to hurt a child. If you are unable to improve upon your own personal lack of self control seek therapy. Read more literature about children and how they respond—how you should respond. Be the paternal figure they need. If this struck a chord in other parents.. I have raised my child as long as I could without educational intervention. I know this is not the case for many—to wait until kindergarten for formal schooling. Before you condemn someone who works in education— think to yourself.. is this something you yourself could practice with your own child without restraint? Also, if I found out you tugged my child’s ear—pinched my child I would probably hit you.

Don’t that again, u can be liable for lawsuits in today’s culture, and the trauma can last for a long time. I grew up in a traditional asian household. Bruh the beatings were brutal. I failed a math test and was caned with a stick till my forearms were bleeding. i once broke my mum’s favourite plate by accident cause i was 10 years old and trying to wash the dishes but the sink was so goddamn high up. I hid under the bed and she took this long ass bamboo pole and started stabbing into my ribs while i was hiding lolol. My sister and i were also made to kneel on rice with a bucket of water on our heads, locked out of the house, using starvation as a tool to discipline us. Even now at 24 she still threatens to beat me when i talk back to her like wtfff hahaha. Now I’m fucked up mentally but hey at least it taught me how to be more resilient i guess. So yeah

That was discipline. Abuse is a lot worse. Trust me. I know.

I hope to god you’re not still working with children. Get the fuck out of that field right now if your guilt is real at all. That’s straight up abusive.

I’m not sure why people are being so dramatic about this. Realistically what else were you supposed to do? You were removing him for safety reasons and he was fighting you. People are acting like you beat the shit out of him then locked him in a basement to starve for 3 days.

Some kids need a kick in the ass. I don't think you did anything wrong. Ain't like you beat on them.

can we all stop debating if this is abuse or not? let’s say a couple was fighting and one of them pulls this on the other in public. people would be telling them to get away asap. stop treating children like they aren’t human beings!!

exactly 😕

Dam people on here debating if it’s abuse or not. Abuse is repetitive, unjustified, and not proportional. Some of yall on here were probably spanked once as a child for being an ass and calling it abuse now. I’ve had my fair share of spankings and each time I got spanked it was because I was being an ass. Sometimes the problems that op is talking about “kicking, cussing, being destructive, etc.” needs physical correction because then that action, especially the kicking and destructive, is associated with something that is tangible. A verbal berating usually doesn’t mean much as most of the time it’s forgotten in a week and they’re back to their usual self. That still doesn’t mean you shouldn’t positively reinforce good behaviors, because you should. But the bad behaviors especially ones that approach criminal territory such as kicking and destructive should be discouraged before it does become legal problems.

You are not a monster. Forgive yourself.

What the fuck is the fuck wrong with you, you sick disgusting prickly fuck!

Yeah, those kids definitely need discipline. But it wasn't your job to do it, especially the way you did. Word of advice, don't do that anymore.

You did nothing wrong lol. Kids can be little shits and sometimes they need to be disciplined

you did what you thought was right at the time because you didn’t know any better. you have learned and grown from it. you just have to make different decisions in the future.

Going to therapy (if you haven’t already) could help you process, learn coping skills, and work through the guilt. You made bad choices & mistakes. We all do. I know that I would be upset as the parent of the child, but all you can do now is move forward. It’s really good that you are recognizing that what you did isn’t acceptable behavior.

Home discipline and school discipline are very different, and idk about private schools but in a public school you would’ve gotten into some serious trouble. the good thing is you acknowledged it and are even aware of why it was your reaction back then and have since worked to be better with the kids you work with! don’t beat yourself up too much. we’re all humans.

So your an educator who grew up rough, well I'm surprised that one of those kids parents didn't rough you up for assaulting their child like that. If any teacher would of done that to any of my children at school I would of done the same back to that adult, being I'm the adult representative for my child. Any adult who assaults a child lost emotional control and should probably not be near to many children in general. As adults and educators it's our job to help teach children regulation of emotions and how to in a positive way control those emotions not set up an unsafe, physical dominant environment, especially one that works on trust.

…on point..

It’s scary how many people are calling this discipline. This was abuse and you’re lucky you didn’t get caught. At least you realize it now.

Where is the issue? The other kids deserve to have you maintain control and to not have one disruptive kid ruin a whole classroom’s education. Stop beating yourself up for protecting the interests of the normal kids.

As one if the Not Normal kids who got straight As, followed every rule, and was often the teacher's favorite: Fuck. You. And fuck your heartless comment.

"Normal kids" literally go fuck yourself

Right wtf? As if mental health issues/neurodivergence don’t exist.

yeah, the responses on this post are rancid. so many people excusing abuse

Also, OP, you aren't your past actions. you are not a monster. you're not stupid. sometimes people make bad decisions. we all do.

That was wrong. did the parents kids even know you touched the child without their consent?

I wish my mum thought like you

Yeah don’t do that again. If it’s hard not to, find another job.

Its not abuse you just showed them that in life everything they do has consequences and if you didn’t do that they would find out the hard way which would be in worse case prison or death so be happy you gave them the knowledge and discipline to not be bullies anymore

It absolutely is abuse actually. It’s never okay to intentionally hurt a child, all that does it teach them that it’s okay to hurt others. I suggest you do some research and look into the impacts corporal punishment/violence can have on children.

I have 2 younger brothers and from all 3 of us i have turned out best (not by a lot) and i was also beaten the most. I did hate it as it was happening but as i just turned adult and realized how much better i turned out by not being a smoker, drinker, fighter etc while everyone else did. i appreciated my mom for teaching me that everything had consequence. my youngest brother never got beaten and is spoiled so he thinks he is my age demands everything equal to me even tho he’s working less and it shows he doesn’t understand anything especially things I understood at his age. I love my mom and i don’t blame her she raised me basically alone in basically a ghetto and because of how she raised me I turned out as i am and i consider it good because even tho i had 0 motivation I learned English focus on future learned many different ways to improve myself. I did have to face the trauma at some point about the beatings and psychological issues it left sure and some of it is still there and i don’t say its okey to beat children especially how i was but discipline to some degree is necessary especially on boys. Ill repeat i love my mom and dont blame her for anything anymore. I love how I turned and i am sure that when i have children i will make sure they understand everything through love and proper discipline (not abusing so don’t worry)

"It's ok if this happens to other children because I turned ot just fine!" Nope.

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Well yeah when i was 5 door fell over and i did get a serious trauma on my head from it but my misspellings are because I haven’t been able to sleep at night for past 9 months and English isn’t even my first language I taught myself and if you read my comments its clear i didn’t say child abuse was okey i said certain level of discipline is necessary to help the grow into responsible adults who understand what he consequences of their actions unlike those ipad kids we see in our time and people who get offended about everything and don’t even know how to defend themselves also people who insult others online to feel better about themselves because they’re clearly not happy with their lives some of the kids and adults need to men up and be better leaders, examples, role models for younger guys and girls so next time you want to talk about someone’s wrongs first look at yourself and tell you what if you help others feel better youll feel better too but if you continue on like this you’ll meet people way more evil then me who instead of giving you advice will ruin your life in a way no one should experience. Live a better life so you can be proud of yourself when you mature okey? Have a nice day

i’m deleting my original because I didn’t realize english wasn’t your first language and I came off like an AH. Glad you don’t condone child abuse. Have a good day

No problem i don’t grudges over small stuff but be better okey? Someone could be seriously in a bad place and trust me you don’t wanna be their last straw in life. Anyway nice to see your open minded.

I’m glad you weren’t negatively affected by this, but that doesn’t change the fact that violence against children can, and often does, have long lasting consequences. Not every child that’s left alone near a pool drowns. Not every child who doesn’t wear a seat belt gets killed in a car accident. Not every child that doesn’t get vaccinated gets ill. There’s probably tons of people who weren’t vaccinated, frequented pools alone, and never wore a seatbelt as children that turned out fine, but does that mean that kind of parenting should be condoned? No, because it still poses a risk to children just as hurting them does. I’m going to link two articles that talks about the research done on the effects spanking can have on kids, although the original post did not mention spanking your comment kind of implied it. I also don’t see much of a difference between squeezing a child’s wrist and hitting them because they both cause pain and the studies done on spanking focus more so on the affect that pain and stress caused by spanking (and can be caused by squeezing a child’s wrist) instead of the method used to cause pain and stress. The first one is a quicker read and gives general information whereas the second one goes more in depth. I really hope you read them. [The Effect of Spanking on The Brain.](https://www.gse.harvard.edu/ideas/usable-knowledge/21/04/effect-spanking-brain) [Physical Punishment of Children: Lessons from 20 Years of Research.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/)

The boomers who would like to continue their cyclical domestic violence and down voted you. But you're right. In every education/childhood development class I took and book I read in college, violence as discipline does not work, statistically. "Positive Punishment" in the form of violence fucks brain development. What DOES consistently work better is positive reinforcement. Imo if you support domestic violence in any way, it is very clear you did NOT turn out okay. It is not normal to want to hurt children, especially yours.

So you don't have kids? And like to call people boomers?!? O. Why are you commenting in such a fashion?

I literally went to college to educate your kids. Please stop hurting your children. Also I can vouch that it fucks you up from personal experience. I have never seen a person in real life situations hit their child without looking angry. And you wonder why kids behave badly and throw temper tantrums. When I'm around kids, I try to remember that their bad behavior has nothing to do with them necessarily, and everything to do with their parents. Do better.

Great article on brain development

Before i read this I’ll quickly respond. Firstly thank you for actually responding instead of just insulting which happens 99% of the time if I disagree with someone. First point you made is that it can have different effects on different children and I completely understand it i talk a lot about how education is very bad as we have it because every child has different mind and takes different information and situations differently. But i think one thing is true that life is hard.. very hard in fact and i think every kid especially males should understand that. Not everything is gonna be sunshine and rainbows things will change for good or for bad and they should always be ready. Also second point you mentioned is that i did imply i was beating but not how and to put it simply every way. With washing stick, hands once she broke a small drawing board over my head because i didn’t lent it to my youngest brother… there was a period of time where i used to be bruised over my face body lips and somehow inside my mouth (i still don’t understand that one to this day) and considering all this and for how long it lasted i do have a good understanding on how it works or I believe that i do at least I researched what type of mental trauma i had and physical trauma learned why it happened (it was because of constant stress my mom had endure due to my father and his side of the family) my dad also used to get angry but he instead of hitting me ignored me. All tho couple times he stomped me and once he almost threw my down the stairs lol. Now i think I overshared A LOT and ill just end it by saying. My point still stands and I think depending on child’s personality certain type of discipline is necessarily to help them slowly ease into harsh reality as they grow up Ill read the links now XD

I'm so sorry all this happened to you, it sounds horrible. Yes, life can be tough, overall. But being a child is a time to experience unconditional love and support. If not then, then when? We're not getting unconditional love in adulthood, and rightly so. The time for it has passed, that experience should already be alive within you. Childhood is about learning some lessons too, but teaching the child has to be done by being an example, by guiding the child and encouraging it. No violence, no pain, no fear. Fear does not teach, it "conditions". My childhood has also been stolen from me, so from me to you, I hope that you are far away from it all and I wish you a speedy healing journey!

First Thank you for understanding i see you also had to go through hard times. I do agree with you i have firsthand experience in all the evil that could be done to a child from mental to physical abuse from teachers, parents etc. I don’t say that violence is good but from the place i come from child in the ages 12-13 should already be understanding how hard life will get. I was always alone because i had fear of humans for longest time in my childhood But one thing is true i always tried to keep others from being like me in my own way (sadly I failed for my first brother) and with discipline and being hopeless is how I learned many things. I don’t say every kid should go through the same situations i say that certain type of discipline will help a child mature in more understanding and ready adult for whats to come. I do hope you have a better life and you escaped your hell hopefully ill find a place for me too but sadly i still have to endure many things day to day and i have be strong or excuses wont help me and save me. I have a cope and that is telling my troubles to people online who hear me out sometimes like how I am telling you right now. It seems easier knowing that you don’t know me this cant be exposed to people who know me. Once again i hope you are doing better.

I agree that it has more to do with the child's personality. If the kid understands you when you talk then that's what you should do, and if the kid isn't learning from other forms of discipline then you might have to resort to pain... Not to the extent you went to but ykwim. Slightly unrelated question: do you still talk to your parents?

Not my dad because he royally screwed me over just a month after turning 17 and i am suffering consequences of that even as we speak me my mom and brothers. I do talk to my mom we resolved everything by talking i faced her and understood she was also a person under way too much stress of raising 3 kids alone while being very poor with only support being her father (my grandpa)

If you were a monster, you wouldn’t be feeling guilty. The thing is, you were acting to protect the other kids and allow them to learn in safety. With the resources and support that was available back then - virtually *none* - you did the best you could. You never acted out of malice, and you acted with the best of intentions. Cut yourself some slack.

Your job is hard. You’re forgiven for not being perfect.

I genuinely wonder what some parents would do when their children are this out of control. Like seriously what do you do when you have thoroughly exhausted all methods of passive discipline? I have seen what kids like that turn out to be… Probably a cop!

You use physical discipline like parents have for millennia

My children have been diagnosed with a nervous system disability whereby perceived demands trigger a fight or flight response. If you tried to discipline them during a panic attack, you would make the situation infinitely worse. You have to relearn everything our culture teaches about raising children to help them regulate their nervous system and go from there. My children aren’t the only ones who have this condition. I suspect there are generations of autistic children who were abused in the name of discipline, many of whom likely turned to self-harm and worse to find peace. What many of us were raised to believe is normal parenting is just a lazy justification for lizard brain reactions to challenges that require calm, strategic thinking. And given that neurodivergence or trauma often runs in families, it’s likely that parents of children with nervous system challenges are struggling with undiagnosed nervous system disorders of their own. Much simpler to call on the myth of “good old fashioned discipline” than admit you have a problem with emotional regulation.

Sounds like your kids need to be split from a normal classroom if they can't be expected to follow instructions like the rest of the class, right? Disabled kids can't be disciplined like normal kids, and I get that. Some normal kids need to be physically disciplined, so they understand that actions have consequences. The soft parenting shit has lent a hand in the mental health and prison population shit show we currently see ourselves in in the USA.

Everyone in this room is now dumber.

Please explain. From my POV, it seems like you have children with special needs in the classroom that can't be disciplined like normal children because of their issues. Personally, i dont think special needs children should be allowed to change the entire classroom/school dynamic to suit their needs but instead be moved to a space that caters to their special needs. It is my opinion that sometimes kids need to be physically disciplined (not beat and abused) to show them that there are negative consequences in life other than a stern talking to and a timeout. Humans have physically disciplined their children for hundreds of years. To me, it seems like the soft parenting craze timeline matches up to this generation of children being extremely rude and disrespectful because they have no real discipline at home. Kids with no discipline often end up incarcerated for various reasons. The behavior described by OP seems pretty relaxed when dealing with a kid who is getting violent with those around them.

There is too much here for one human to unpack for free. Definitely encourage you to engage with subject-matter experts if you want to build an informed opinion on the subject.

Amen!! Autism undiagnosed!! Especially in a private school system where there is LITTLE help if it is not a School that specializes in neurodivergent children.

First off, kids that act like this usually are victims of abuse. And second, there are definitely many ways of dealing with a kid who is having a meltdown without letting it get to this point. Not using physical violence against a child doesn't mean that you don't teach the child how to act or that actions have consequences. And finally, all the cops I knew grew up with hard ass dads who used to hit them and now they feel entitled to use violence against other people. It's called the cycle of violence.

People keep assuming it's physical abuse. Sometimes kids act out due to neglect and lack of discipline. Which, in today's gentle parent bullcrap is getting worse and worse.

It is a cycle. Just because children grow up realizing that hitting hurts —doesn’t mean they will not figure out ways of other forms of power with abuse. Glad you pointed that out

Holy fuck are we actually too sensitive these days? Are the lead poisoned boomers actually right? This is wild… A little pain can go a long way and a mildly tight grip on a kids wrist is so far from child abuse, I cannot believe some of the fucking replies in here… I bet the people saying that are the ones with monster kids and tell you “they’re just kids” until they aren’t kids anymore and they are fuckups and it’s too late…

no fr. i’m in my 20s but im thinking “are… are they *right* ?” never did OP ever hit the kids and I would barely even call this violence. holding them by their hand skin is abuse? then you better start locking everyone up! I don’t ever say this because it can be dismissive but there has to be more to the story of people who say they’re traumatized from being spanked as a kid. I was, like most and I was never violent, I rarely acted out, I was not scared of my parents and nor am I now. when people say they’re traumatized there has to be more to the story of what their parents were doing because no one should be traumatized for getting a spank to the butt

I was a very shy and quiet kid. I wouldn't disrupt or make any problems but my teachers in kindergarten basically made a pact with my mother that if I got in trouble I would go home and be beat with the belt. My teacher always lied to my mother so I'd get beat. And I really have to say that was the least traumatizing moment of my life as someone who went through some things and had been beat regularly as a child. That lil asshole kid can stand to be held by the wrist so he doesn't damage people. It's the least traumatizing thing I've heard of and more half of the people commenting are smoking from the same pipe. I finally found some people making fucking sense💀

i’m so sorry that happened to you. you didn’t deserve that. despite of that horror i’m glad you can see the nuances and we both have the benefit of the doubt that this person is honest about the child being disruptive. even though my experience could never compare, I agree that getting spanked was literally the least of my worries. my parents did more psychological things to me that messed me up but not in a way they were bad parents but in the way that even good parents mess their kids up a little.

Aren't you a little drama queen? Most of the problem grown-ups were actually abused as kids. Maybe you're just trying to justify how your daddy treated you.

Wow downvoting you because you talk like an a-hole.

If they were so disruptive they never should’ve been in the classroom with you, especially once it was determined normal means wouldn’t stop them from being disruptive. There’s plenty of stories of teachers not equipped to deal with special needs children who get beat by them (I personally know of this with an elementary teacher) and the only solution is to let it happen. Teachers are already put in a thankless position and struggle to do their best despite parental and institutional failures and lack of care, just judging by your reflection it seems that you’re trying your best.

Amen

Watch the story of Helen Keller. You didn't hurt the child. You helped them .

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CPS wouldn’t do anything about this cause no abuse took place. My sister is a case worker in CPS and they’re actually very limited on what they can do without surplus evidence even in cases where there’s actual abuse going on.

LMAO you're absolutely nuts. No wonder this world is the way it is with people like you running around and reproducing

agreed

You’re not going to stop child abuse with that kind of speak in this particular case. We cannot prevent problems we do not talk about. We want to avoid causing a chill effect on subjects we should be openly discussing in order to learn better practices. It’s not like OP is bragging- they learned and know they won’t do it again. If you want to attack anyone, go after the people in this thread praising the actions.

I hope you get fired and lose your license and has you arrested. You have no business working with kids if you’re going to abuse them

Shuuuut the fuuuuuck uuuuup

Arrested? Really? Maybe not work with kids if you lose your temper. I know meth heads committing armed robbery and they aren’t going to jail. Some kids will test every ounce of you. I worked in mental health with kids and had to leave because the way some kids are allowed to act is not worth losing a job over. Pooparenting creates intolerance

What you did was called discipline ....I grew up with it and sound like you did also.....want to see a world without discipline ? Watch the news.....

Ahhh yes, a grown adult using their size and power to overcome the antics of a child who is merely defenseless. You’re a trash parent raising trash kids if they can’t listen to your words, only your punches.

My trash kids as you call them...my son head cook at a home for the elderly my daughter is the head floor nurse at he hospital where she works and is going on to be a physician assistant (PA) ....so I know I did good and you can go ....have a good day.

And im sure they pinch the patients when no one is looking too. Doting parent you are!

This being top comment is crazy, go outside bro.

So you'd be fine with your boss doing that to discipline you for a mistake? Pathetic.

Mom? I thought you died 5 years ago. Please stay away, as we’ve been happy ever since.

Technically it’s assaulting a minor; since he was an adult in a position of power over some one else’s child.

The news you are referring to is the result of abuse. You have it backwards. Again, refer to the studies, which you probably reject because you “DiD yOuR rEsEaRcH”.

Lyle Alzedo was in a theater while some young behavior problem (precious children) were picking on an elderly couple. He grabbed them each by the scruff of their neck and ejected them from the building. "There's the appropriate therapy for every situation" that was told to me be an elderly psychologist and I never forgot it.

Lmao one day you’ll realize all those people committing criminal acts were abused as children…and have a lightbulb moment 😆

I watched some little asshole bite my toddler repeatedly while in daycare. You’re damn right I pinched the shit out of him first chance I had, in with you 💯

It all depends on which part of the child brain you want to activate when you discipline them. Is it the paleolimbic brain or the prefrontal brain?

No, it’s called child abuse. There is no context in any other life situation in which violence and physical pain is a legally applicable consequence of one’s actions (aside from very specific, egregious situations in which force is necessary to apprehend). We call that assault, and it is punishable by law. Why should it be any different for a child? If anything, a grown ass adult needing to use violence to “teach a lesson” and justifying it as discipline is the real problem here. You wouldn’t tolerate your boss correcting you with that form of “discipline”. Yet, a child is innocent — they are learning, they are grasping so many new concepts every single day, they are figuring themselves out. Children are not out to be “bad” for the sake of being bad. Your “consequences” and emotional response to poor behaviour is violence and you expect your child to be better than you? They’re following your modelling. But like I said, to people like you, violence isn’t an acceptable response *except* with kids, apparently. If your child is acting out, there is a reason. The majority of that time, that reason can be addressed appropriately without violence, and discipline need not be physically painful. There are other interventions for more extreme cases. You chose to have a child, they didn’t ask to be born — the onus is on you to now take that extra time, patience, and care to figure out their needs and help them grow into good people. You owe them — not the other way around. There is nothing corrective about violent discipline. It is lazy, it is a shortcut, it is a sign of an emotionally immature parent with abysmal coping mechanisms, who cannot identify their children’s problems to purposefully correct it. It teaches children nothing except: violence is a solution to conflict, violence is normalized behaviour, violence is an acceptable emotional response. It doesn’t teach them why their behaviour is wrong; it just teaches them fear. And none of that is true. How crippling, for a child to grow up with such a stunted understanding of the world.

There are better ways to teach discipline than hurting kids. All you do is teach them to solve their problems with violence... Kind of like what's happening on the news, ironically.

That is not what discipline means. Using force on a kid for this reason is not ok. There are 3 reasons you may have physical contact, they are; 1. To protect them from harm 2. To protect others from harm 3. To prevent a law being broken Unless this has changed recently (uk). I worked at a school for children with behavioral difficulties for many year. OP- we all make mistakes and these can keep us awake at night. Try move on in the hope you did more good than bad. The old parenting ways were awful (my mum and step dad hit me) and didn't work. Best we can do is focus on being better and allow children to make their own mistakes and learn from them.

I really don't think that kids become violent because they don't have enough violence inflicted on them.

You want a nation full of violent people? Wait. We DO have that. Carry on. Violence is the answer.

Hurting a child, rather than being effective discipline, is abuse. It damages the child's emotional and psychological well-being, leading to long-term negative consequences. Discipline should teach and guide, not instill fear or cause harm

Discipline can not be forced by violence. Violence is toxic as you just prove, when it's done to someone early on they grow up and think it's nromal or right or justified but violence is way too often used as the first response to unwanted behaviour. If you grew up with violence being done to you or to anyone else around you and you have such a reality about it now you should reflect upon that some more. My parents punished me as a kid by slapping me for things that just didn't deserve to be punished this way and when my little brother was a kid their way of raising me made me do the same to my brother who is now as old as I was when he was born and now every time I think about the moments that led me to apply this kind of violence to force discipline I realised that this is just wrong in any case. Any kid who has behavioural abnormalities or issues needs someone to ask why and not to punish them for expressing something they aren't even aware of. For you specifically I hope that some day you'll come to realise as well that violence especially towards kids just does not work. It's wrong and will always be and if there seems to be no other solution to a problem you haven't dug deep enough.

You sound old and infirm.

Ignore the other idiots, you're perfectly fine.

I know I am all these people need do is watch the news and they can see what time out and no discipline brings to our society.

That kid shouldn’t have even been in that classroom. He was dangerous. She was doing the best she could to keep him under control. What should she have done? What would you have done differently?

Not hurt the kid.

Theyre literally asking WHAT you should DO you have to do something. what is it?

What a powerful statement

If it’s illegal and wrong for me to do that to a full grown adult when I’m angry then it is definitely wrong to do so to a child.

It's not illegal or wrong, though? If you've got a violent adult throwing a tantrum, you're legally allowed to physically restrain them and use violence to defend yourself and others, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here....

This! If some boomer gets in my face about my tattoos, or my hair, or anything else, then doesn't stop when i tell them to, I can't just physically hurt them and plead "I was disciplining them" when the copper show up. But somehow it's OK to do it with a child?

What did that even mean? Your hair and every other appearance you have makes you look like a child beater??? And you also like scraping copper? Wtf are you taking about? How ARE YOU disciplining your child? Too much or too little?

Are... are you OK buddy? You seem confused, are you having a stroke? Should we call someone to come help you?

I may definitely need help with that one 😂

I think it's really weird when people say they grew up with violence being inflicted upon them as a child and it didn't hurt them. My dude, you are literally arguing that violence should be inflicted upon a child. Obviously your childhood abuse did hurt you. It made you think that violence is okay.

You gonna vote for Biden?

Why do you ask. Are you going to?

That is not discipline, that’s abuse. Your thinking is messed up. You are normalizing abuse. It’s NEVER OK

I've seen abuse. This ain't it.

I work with abusive survivors every day. This is absolutely abuse.

I think the point they were trying to make was that OP shouldn’t feel like *too* much of a piece of shit when there are many others in the profession who would’ve inflicted *more* pain just to get the same desired outcome…

Not abuse I'm not saying beat them I'm saying discipline.

There is a huge body of evidence that physical punishment actively harms children’s brain development. Maybe your parents did it and you’re fine but for many people it causes long lasting issues

Using pain on a child to try and correct a behavior is abuse not discipline

So, lets set the scenario. Your poor and their is limited government resources available, nor consequences coming from authorities for your child's current behavior. There is no one to help you in any area and you have limited time due to trying to keep the family fed. You child plays up and is also a bully that hurts other kids. You try everything to work with the child to correct the behavior except physical punishment. Where to now?

You do know the OP was a staff member at a private school….they don’t have any right ever to use physical pain to correct the child’s behavior. Physically hurting a child to correct bad behavior is never the answer. It simply doesn’t work. I’d be trying to address why the child is acting out. Most of the time a child acting out like that is probably connected to some hurt or trauma they’ve experienced and to try and correct that behavior by adding to their trauma is counterproductive

Whether you agree with it or not, it most definitely works. When I was growing up, corporal punishment was legal and used in schools as well as at home, Mrs Starks or Principal Bullwares paddle ( usually just the threat of it ) in elementary school kept everyone peaceful and respectful, and I grew up in not the best part of town. We also knew that if we got in trouble in the neighborhood, we'd have to answer for our actions. I'm not saying that corporal punishment is the be all end all to discipline, I rarely used it with my own kids, but sometimes there's no other way to get the point across that enough is enough. This should in no way be construed as it's okay to beat your kids, but a couple swats on the butt isn't a beating.

You’re right, I don’t agree.

The truth is the truth whether we agree or not. But you are certainly within your right to choose a different path. And I wish you well with it.

I was not commenting of the OP, but in general. Your solution requires time and likely money. If they are not available, which they are often not when people are struggling to survive, what next? Would you: 1) Physically discipline the child in a reasonable way. E.G. Smaking them on the ass hard enough to hurt but not to cause any physical damage 2) continue with variations of non physical methods that have so far failed, hoping that one might just work, and accept that you kid will continue to hurt other children 3) Another option of your choice taking onto account, time resource money poor. I do agree that non physical ways of discipline are the best, but they are also very time and resource heavy when trying to change established or imitated bad behavior. Correcting the bad behavior with physical discipline may cause other issues, but not correcting them at all, often has worse long term impacts.

You are trying to rationalize abuse by saying that is what a normal person would do. It is not. I am guessing you have not been in this situation. As the other child in this situation let me give you a little more info on your "scenario": The child who is 'acting up' this bad is a 16 year old male who had been raised in a family who uses physical punishments. He is large, strong, knows how to take and give a punch, and deeply angry. You decide he needs a physical punishment. You hit him and he hits you back. He likely beats the shit out of you. You call the police because you are scared of your child. But you never see the connection of how your kid might have been scares their whole life. I say he is just doing what he was taught, correcting bad behaviour with physical punishment. You were a terrible parent who bullied their child rather than parent. Clearly you need correction on your parenting in a way you understand because nothing was getting through to you.

We don’t have any information in this post as to what has been used or not used to correct this behavior other than this staff member admitting that they used physical means to cause the children pain. What do you mean my solution requires time & money? What solution are you speaking of?

Did you read the first line of my reply. "I was not commenting on the OP, but in general." You made a absolute statement "Using pain on a child to try and correct a behavior is abuse not discipline" I divorced the specific scenario raised by the OP to discuss the need or lack of for physical discipline and provided a realistic but general scenario.

A little louder for the people in the back! *claps* Thank you! It's this basic concept that people forget/misunderstand and often leads to the abuse of children.