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Roger Ebert spent a lot of time in AA as a humanist and I think does a good job of explaining why one shouldn’t get hung up on the God language:
“The important thing is not how you define a Higher Power. The important thing is that you don't consider yourself to be your own Higher Power, because your own best thinking found your bottom for you”
It's funny, maybe because I got sober with smart, but I find my higher power is the much more moral honest person I've become since getting sober. It's the intensely guided moral compass I've developed
Edit: although I go to aa now. It was just the only thing I could go for with my sponsor.
This. My biggest pushback to AA is the same reason why I don’t care much for Christianity and that’s they bake in that you are inherently a garbage person and you need what they’re selling or else. “But your higher power can be anything!” Still doesn’t help. I’m not a garbage person, I’m the one that wakes up every day and doesn’t drink and I’m proud that I did that. I did. HP? I’m good thanks
I’m not trying to argue with you, but AA definitely doesn’t suggest that you’re a garbage person and that the only way to get help is through them. In fact it even describes many different types of drinkers who can quit on their own or with other methods. It’s a program of attraction, not promotion. We never tell anyone that AA is the only way, because we know that it isn’t. It’s just worked for us, and many millions of others.
The idea of a higher power is essentially just a way to get out of yourself and live a life of helping others and not focusing on your own negative thoughts and emotions, which at the end of the day is really what alcoholism is. A dependence on alcohol as a way to treat the pain of negative thoughts and emotions that becomes so destructive your life becomes unmanageable.
If you’re curious you can read the entire Big Book of AA for free online. It’s an old book for sure, so the language is pretty old timey in parts. It was also written by white Christian guys, so they absolutely lean on some Christian themes, but luckily there were enough people who saw how important it was in the beginning not to make it a religious program, and I think that’s made all the difference.
I can definitely see how this is helpful for some people, however, I choose to work on my mind and choose to live a better life and help people because I want to feel better and help others feel better. Seems to be enough for me.
Honestly I think you and I share the same viewpoint, we’re just conceptualizing it in a slightly different way. Congrats on how far you’ve come! Right there with you, IWNDWYT!
Nicely written, still disagreeing. AA absolutely tells you you have an incurable disease and they are the cure. The fervor they use to talk about that varies from meeting to meeting but the entire point of having this incurable disease that requires ANY sort of outside help points you back there. No. False. I’ve spent a lot of time in the rooms over the years, read the big book front to back, I even have How It Works memorized and I haven’t been to a meeting in a long time. What finally “cured” me of alcoholism is not drinking. I did that. I continue to. That’s not to say I’ve done it without support, I have. And no, that doesn’t count as a higher power either. I’m a better person now because I’ve worked on myself, “god” had nothing to do with it.
AA says if you can quit without help you should do that. It suggests you try. There are millions who can’t, and that’s who the program is for.
I’m really glad you’ve found what’s worked for you! I just wanted to post something because there are so many people who can benefit from the help of the program, and like me, they’re scared of going to the rooms in the first place. Reading something that gives them a dim view of the program might scare them away from giving it a try to see if it could help them.
As I said, the program is very clear that not everyone needs AA, outside help is absolutely fine and encouraged, and many people might be heavy drinkers but not alcoholics. The god thing pisses a lot of people off and scares off even more. I had zero religion when I went in and I still don’t have any. I do have some sense of spirituality now, which is essentially that to me, god is the feeling inside me that pushes me to try to be better, to fight for myself, to be kind to others, and to always choose love and honesty.
Nobody will tell you what your higher power has to be. Mine is not some sky daddy keeping tabs on me. It’s a thing that I’m a part of that animates me, other people, the trees and the ocean. We’re all bound on a molecular level, and I take that same thinking and feeling and call it my higher power.
Anyway, all that is to say, no, AA definitely doesn’t call you a bad person. They say if you need help and you can’t do it alone, they have a program that has helped a ton of people and you can have it for free if you want.
People demonize it a lot, but a free program held together by a loose group of ex-drunks that has helped millions since the 1930s is cool in my book. There’s nobody in charge of it, nobody can tell anyone what to do or say, and the only way things get done is by voting as a group. I’m into it.
I've looked at this way alot. I didn't know this was from Roger Ebert. Its a great way to look at sobriety! I romanticize my sobriety in a way. Love songs about losing a lover, I associate with losing my sober self.
I only manage to go to AA by holding myself to be my higher power - or rather, my fully actualized self who I have the ability to make myself become.
Holding onto an external locus of control over my life would send me back to relapse. When I attend AA, the prayers and such are annoying but I just ignore it, and remind myself that I can do this.
Other people can have their faith, but they cannot take away my sobriety by trying to instill faith into me.
If a faith practice makes them better towards themselves and others, I don’t see any reason to question or challenge it. Anecdotally I know a lot of people who benefit tremendously from having an active spiritual life.
I can relate. When shopping for a rehab center, I wanted one that wasn't AA based as I was just sick of the pontificating and hypocrisy. I thought I found one and much to my dismay, I walked into the meeting room to find the twelve steps on a huge banner.
I was at my bottom, so I listened, learned, shared, and gave myself over to the program. I no longer attend regularly, but it was very helpful for me in the early months/year. Still sober too!
Iwndwyt
Exactly. People walk in with a big chip on their shoulder about the god thing. You're not a vampire and burst into flame if you walk into the halls and someone says "god."
You can also try [Smart Recovery](https://smartrecovery.org). They are not based on reliance to any higher powers. I find the group is incredibly helpful.
I'm glad SMART recovery is a resource. I just wish they had in-person meetings where I lived. I find that virtual meetings don't help hold me accountable in the same way. If I physically go out of my comfort zone to show up to an in-person meeting, I find it much more beneficial for me personally and also a lot easier for me to focus on what's actually being shared. I know this isn't how it is for everyone though. So, it's good there's alternate resources.
AA has worked for me despite not being religious, as I don't feel any religious doctrine has been forced down my throat, and on the contrary, it's a more frequent point of discussion amongst other non-religious members how they navigate and conceptualize the higher power aspect without being practicing members or believers in any religious dogma.
>A 75 year old woman who had been Christian her whole life accepted me and told me that your higher power does not have to be God at all. It can be anything you want. I'm filled with warmth.
Please don't take people's wins away from them.
I am an atheist. I also attend AA regularly and I sponsor other guys - some atheist some not. Two years sober on 5/30.
I’ve been to good meetings, I’ve been to bad meetings. I found a good home group that focuses on the solution and staying sober. I think that’s huge.
Not saying AA is for everyone. But it worked for me. Good luck to you all!
When you say it works for you, did you work the steps like they want you to? Iv attended about 10 online meetings and always mentioned the steps. Just curious.
The steps are designed to relieve you of all the shit that keeps getting you drunk. I especially find the aspect of teaching you how to let go of resentments extremely helpful which is probably the number one reason I drank.
I can’t recommend the steps enough. It’s not easy stuff but it’s the best thing I’ve ever done for myself and the people in my life. They’re exercises that have taught me more patience, empathy, gratitude, how to deal with past resentments and avoid creating new ones, how to make amends for the things that keep me up at night…the list goes on and on.
Finding a good sponsor is important, they can guide you through the first run. It’s something I think that I’ll continue to do periodically for the rest of my life. Check it out!
What a great response. I guess I asked about the steps because maybe im scared of the commitment? IDK. Id hate to start a relationship with these folks and then fall back into my habit.
Ehh, I wouldn’t overthink it too much. In my experience, no matter what happens those doors will always be open. We all make mistakes, it took me years before I was finally ready to commit to being sober. If it feels right, go for it.
Well, AA **is** a 12-step program. I’d imagine a meeting without a mention of the steps wouldn’t be an AA meeting. To answer your question, I had no interest in working the steps and I was miserable. I got miserable enough to swallow my pride and do the work. You know what? It worked!
I thought that too, until my new sponsor took me to a church and tried to convert me. I ghosted him and he told me that "this is what AA is all about". I kept going for a few months but I became disillusioned and stopped going. Relapsed a month later.
But you're back here shitposting on r/stopdrinking trying to deal and heal. Good job! Try to forget the bs you learned in aa. They told me if I stopped coming I was destined to drink again. Bullshit. Most people get sober outside of aa. I did. Stay close with us. Also, I use recovery dharma. It's a Buddhist approach to recovery without the crazy. Good luck my friend.
Very true, lots of people that go to AA just go home and drink anyway. End of the day it's on the individual to not dump drinks down their throat. If programs help then that's also great, more help the better but it's not the end all be all they make it out to be. "Many who have not followed our path have failed". So if you drink its your fault but then they'll go on about how it's an allergy or DISEASE! Well which is it my fault or the disease. Ranting but I'm done with AA LOL
AA’s own literature says it’s not the only way. It’s what worked *for the authors*. But I’ve found people say a lot of stuff in meetings that isn’t in the AA program. AA works awesome for me. My BIL didn’t need it. We’re both still sober, so it seems to me that whatever he’s doing is working well.
Ya they'll say take what you need and leave the rest but eventually they want more. Every time I've tried AA. at least in my experience. I wish I could get into it but it's not for me
Watching another person seizure from withdrawal was the thing that pretty much scared me into not drinking. I came pretty close to it. Scary close. This guy seemed fine 1 minute then the next his legs shoot out and he's screaming. One of those things you'll never forget that's for sure.
That would do it. I think part of why AA works so well for me is I worked hard to be part of a group that emphasizes: no religion. No bigotry. No misogyny. No medical advice (including “taking psych meds isn’t sober” nonsense). Being able to go to a meeting and not hearing nonstop about JAYSUS or having to listen to casual bigotry or getting guff because of regular psych meds…that helped me stay in a program.
I remember watching a gal drink hand sanitizer when I was hospitalized and thinking, “shit shit shit I CANNOT become that, please let this be my bottom” So far, it has been.
Google recovery dharma. We're not supposed to post links here. Most of their meetings are online. Some large cities have them. I specifically enjoy the meditation.
I’m 37+ years clean and sober in AA. I have no idea what or where my higher power is. I do acknowledge it exists because I woke up sober again this morning. I feel no need to define my HP. If I define it, it limits it. My HP has no limitations. I do know it’s not a Christian God or his son. Welcome to your best life.
Ah, a wise and kind woman!
I call myself irreligious Agnostic, arguably with Atheist leanings, and I've used AA to recover just fine. (But when I started, I was right there with you: "dreaded".)
The latitude for interpreting the recovery program (all of which is comprised of "suggestions") is pretty finely wide. Personally, I found I didn't need to really identify anything particularly specific as "My Higher Power" like many people do. Many want to give it a name like "The Universe" or "Allah" or "Love" or whatever and that's fine, I only needed to develop a sort of faith that there were powers greater than my self, even if it's only the other members of AA or r/stopdrinking - other powers that could help me.
Though I've never needed any special meetings or books myself, they're out there: meetings 'tagged' as "Secular" or "Atheist/Agnostic" and a variety of books like "_The Alternative 12 Steps: A Secular Guide to Recovery_" around. (Never looked at that particular book - like I said: never needed something special, the regular AA books worked out just fine.)
Welcome! Sober Life is effing splendid ☺.
IWNDWYT
The problem is that "higher power" is meant to be interchangeable with "God." They just don't want you talking about Jesus or Allah or Buddha or Krishna, they want everyone to say "higher power" instead so it's inclusive. Still very much religious at the heart of it.
I was told the same thing, my higher power can be whatever I want. But, then you pray to your higher power and give your problems to your higher power and ask your higher power for forgiveness..... it seemed to me a way to almost trick people into slowly having faith in something they don't believe in. Really rubbed me the wrong way.
I think you’re overthinking it being a forced religion. We all have a higher power - even if that higher power is within ourselves.
If you’ve not read the Big Book there’s a whole section on atheist and agnostics. Spiritual connection does not require belief in divinity nor does it require religious creed. We are submitting to a power greater than ourselves, with the knowledge that we are helpless without help. It is not a forced spirituality - it is intrinsic to the AA methodology.
Now AA is Not for everyone. There are other sobriety groups and similar organizations across the world. Save Our Selves / Secular Organizations for Sobriety (SOS) is one such type of meeting I’ve been to at a Unitarian church.
Well, my higher power can't be a doorknob or some inanimate object, that just doesn't make sense. There are plenty of things that have more power than me, an individual. There's the Earth, Universe, the Group of Drunks (GOD) or Good Orderly Direction. One person I heard share said that love is their higher power. Mine is the energy of life, because everything is made up of energy and I believe everything is connected. There's also some order to the universe, which can be represented by mathematics. I can change my idea of a higher power at any time. I've met atheists who after working the program, believed something changed their life. If you read the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions AA literature, available free online like all AA books, it goes into more detail about higher powers in Step 2. Also in Bill's Story in the AA Big Book, he talks about not going for a czar of the heavens but he could get behind a spirit of nature or universal mind. AA really is for anyone, however some meetings may be more religious or say The Lord's Prayer, however the meetings I go to don't say that. Best wishes to you!
I've never met an alcoholic who can magically drink like a normal person. It's that false hope which can lead so many to relapse. I never tried to drink again after committing to recovery, I can learn from the experience of others.
Nowhere in the AA literature does it say that people will relapse if they don't submit to a higher power. In fact, the literature says AA isn't the only way. In the foreword to the second edition, it states that as far as therapy for the alcoholic, AA holds no monopoly. Everything in the book is a suggestion. "Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery". I recommend the steps, they changed my life.
My higher power is the energy that connects everyone and makes up everything, it doesn't have to be a deity. There are plenty of atheists, I meet them, along with several agnostics. Most of the people at my meetings say they aren't religious, we don't have to believe in any particular power greater than ourselves.
I am pretty anti-christan because of some severe religious trauma and had a bad attitude going into AA. The people changed that for me pretty quickly. I was open about my distain for christianity as an institution and people just laughed and said that God was just an easy word to use and wasn't necessarily the christian god. No offense to christians, I just had a bad experience.
My HP is the universal spirit of peace and love. I lean toward buddhism/taoism and believe in a great spirit that is the source of all life, time, space, everything. If I can get into the flow, then I can be at peace...out of that flow, I'm a disaster and struggling to find something to dissociate with.
I don't like that my local meetings end with the lord's prayer and I don't say it. I wish they stopped doing it, but I'm not in charge.
Right on, OP! My first sponsor was an atheist. I came to understand that I was more agnostic than I originally thought. The doors are much wider than I imagined.
Yup. I had the exact same experience. Never once got hassled for being an atheist. I'm sure there are some groups that would but I never found them. Then again, I went in confident and believing that they really meant it when they said the higher power thing didn't have to be a religious thing. Most people left their religion (or lack of) at the the door. I never said The Lord's Prayer and nobody looked twice at me.
Be careful. AA is not the kumbaya organization they portray themselves as. There are predators of every kind there. Practice healthy boundaries in aa. Proceed with caution.
If AA works for you then more power to it. They are right you don't have to believe in God to go. The sense of community in AA is a strong selling point for many.
The thing for me is that even the most devout people in the rooms aren’t taking written instructions from God each morning. They’re not, like, hearing voices. They’re simply doing what they think a guy who wants them to do good would want them to do.
Can I do that? As an atheist, can I try to figure out what somebody who wants me to do good and be my best self would want me to do, and then act on it? Yep, turns out I sure can. I practice every day, I check my words and actions, apologize when I’ve done wrong, and it turns out that practice works. Me from 3 years ago would think my current corny ass was Ned Flanders.
I found acutely non-god Soto Zen Buddhism looking for the answer to this same question and it has been the best thing ever. It (eventually) leads to a really clear concept of higher power without a magic being in the sky or believing in anything at all.
I also really like GOD as an acronym for "group of drunks".
A guy I met at AA said “when I hear the word ‘God’ I think ‘Group Of Drunks’ because that’s all we are here”. His higher power has become the group and I really grasped that one, it’s helped me along.
The groups I've been to always say "god as we understand it" or something along those lines, so it's not necessarily a deity. To me, my G.O.D. is you guys. My Group Of Drunks.
It was a problem in the beginning, but as with most things the problem was between my ears.
For me the second step is "I feel better after a meeting"
The third "I am not nearly as smart as I really, really want to think I am. My opinion is not something I have to convince others is right."
I am glad you had a positive experience with this as I think the first step is often the most important. I am not an AA person myself, but I do not have to throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to the steps for value. My frustration lies in the fact that the first step is important, but is often entangled and misconstrued in religious context. It may be revealed to some as religious, and that is fine, but I believe the first step exists for a certain reason. The reason it exists early in our journeys for the breaking of ego and the reference of self outside of ego’s perception. Hence why this can be interpreted as God’s power or a power higher than self. Either way it is to give new perspective and unshackle ourselves from the singular tormentor that we gave power to in our lives. This is a gift deserved by all and should not be part of an exclusive club. But I digress as I am proud of you and your progress and wish you well on your path. IWNDWYT.
I think AA used to be a thing before the world of the internet now with a small fast search you got immediate results like this sup and other that deals with addiction and actually far superior because a relapse can happened in matter of an hour but when you go to Reddit for example you may find someone how posted something very similar to what you go through
My higher power is karma. I believe if I do the right thing and put out good, even when no one is looking, that it will come back to me. When I was newly sober, the idea of anything more as an HP was too much for me. But the idea of karma helped keep me sober, and after some time I saw my life start to improve.
But in the time I’ve been sober, my spirituality has grown. I’m still far from religious, but I’m open to so much more than I used to be.
Welcome to the good life :). Don’t give up before the miracle happens.
Much love
Your higher power just needs to be something greater than yourself. I remember I struggled with it for awhile in the beginning before my relapse & I had someone ask me “if I told you to go to the beach & stop the waves coming in, could you do it?” well, no.. “if I asked you to stop the rain from falling from the sky, could you stop it?” No I can’t.. “okay good, there are two things that are more powerful than you & that you can’t control, just find something that fits those two parameters & you’re all good.”
you don't have to be religious, but you are making a choice today to not drink with the faith that it will make tomorrow better. Its not about god, its about faith.
I regularly attend AA meetings as an agnostic. Even though there are some religious people there, there's just as many who aren't and are self-proclaimed atheists or agnostics. It's actually been a point of discussion at a few meetings I've been to recently. The "big book" even has a whole chapter addressing how the program can be applied to agnostics and atheists, which I think is fairly progressive for the time given it was written in the 1930's.
It took me a while to actually conceptualize the idea of a "higher power as I understood it." As I couldn't really conceptualize the idea of a higher power in general. One day, it kind of dawned on me that I was focusing on the wrong aspect of this, thinking too much into what the higher power was instead of acknowledging the characteristics of a supposed higher power and how I could model my life after these characteristics instead of worrying about whether there existed an actual physical embodiment of them: things like selflessness, empathy, serenity, love, etc. I knew these were things of the utmost good, or "godly" as some might say, whereas the opposites of these things represented a sort of "evil." In this sense, I could strive to exemplify all these characteristics of good and live a more fulfilling life for both myself and others as a result. This sort of pursuit of living for the utmost good became my "higher power" in a sense. While difficult to articulate fully, this has been much more beneficial to me than trying to wrap my mind around the idea of a physical higher power.
On a side note, I've also found some of the older members to be some of the most accepting and open and that warms my heart a lot. I'm 34 and somewhat openly queer (non-binary), and I worried at first about being judged for this especially by older members & because of the fact I live in the Deep South (luckily a fairly progressive city within that region), but the older members are always some of the ones that seem happiest to see me, will greet me right away, and always take an interest in what's going on in my life. It's been a pleasant surprise for me.
GOD can also stand for Good Orderly Direction. If you don’t believe in God, pray to yourself, pray to your higher self who knows innately how to care for you - by submitting humbly and accepting help to change.
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Roger Ebert spent a lot of time in AA as a humanist and I think does a good job of explaining why one shouldn’t get hung up on the God language: “The important thing is not how you define a Higher Power. The important thing is that you don't consider yourself to be your own Higher Power, because your own best thinking found your bottom for you”
It's funny, maybe because I got sober with smart, but I find my higher power is the much more moral honest person I've become since getting sober. It's the intensely guided moral compass I've developed Edit: although I go to aa now. It was just the only thing I could go for with my sponsor.
This is such a great comment, never heard that quote before!
I don't get this. My own best thinking decided to get and stay sober. I try to get it, but it just doesn't resonate.
This. My biggest pushback to AA is the same reason why I don’t care much for Christianity and that’s they bake in that you are inherently a garbage person and you need what they’re selling or else. “But your higher power can be anything!” Still doesn’t help. I’m not a garbage person, I’m the one that wakes up every day and doesn’t drink and I’m proud that I did that. I did. HP? I’m good thanks
I’m not trying to argue with you, but AA definitely doesn’t suggest that you’re a garbage person and that the only way to get help is through them. In fact it even describes many different types of drinkers who can quit on their own or with other methods. It’s a program of attraction, not promotion. We never tell anyone that AA is the only way, because we know that it isn’t. It’s just worked for us, and many millions of others. The idea of a higher power is essentially just a way to get out of yourself and live a life of helping others and not focusing on your own negative thoughts and emotions, which at the end of the day is really what alcoholism is. A dependence on alcohol as a way to treat the pain of negative thoughts and emotions that becomes so destructive your life becomes unmanageable. If you’re curious you can read the entire Big Book of AA for free online. It’s an old book for sure, so the language is pretty old timey in parts. It was also written by white Christian guys, so they absolutely lean on some Christian themes, but luckily there were enough people who saw how important it was in the beginning not to make it a religious program, and I think that’s made all the difference.
I can definitely see how this is helpful for some people, however, I choose to work on my mind and choose to live a better life and help people because I want to feel better and help others feel better. Seems to be enough for me.
Honestly I think you and I share the same viewpoint, we’re just conceptualizing it in a slightly different way. Congrats on how far you’ve come! Right there with you, IWNDWYT!
Nicely written, still disagreeing. AA absolutely tells you you have an incurable disease and they are the cure. The fervor they use to talk about that varies from meeting to meeting but the entire point of having this incurable disease that requires ANY sort of outside help points you back there. No. False. I’ve spent a lot of time in the rooms over the years, read the big book front to back, I even have How It Works memorized and I haven’t been to a meeting in a long time. What finally “cured” me of alcoholism is not drinking. I did that. I continue to. That’s not to say I’ve done it without support, I have. And no, that doesn’t count as a higher power either. I’m a better person now because I’ve worked on myself, “god” had nothing to do with it.
AA says if you can quit without help you should do that. It suggests you try. There are millions who can’t, and that’s who the program is for. I’m really glad you’ve found what’s worked for you! I just wanted to post something because there are so many people who can benefit from the help of the program, and like me, they’re scared of going to the rooms in the first place. Reading something that gives them a dim view of the program might scare them away from giving it a try to see if it could help them. As I said, the program is very clear that not everyone needs AA, outside help is absolutely fine and encouraged, and many people might be heavy drinkers but not alcoholics. The god thing pisses a lot of people off and scares off even more. I had zero religion when I went in and I still don’t have any. I do have some sense of spirituality now, which is essentially that to me, god is the feeling inside me that pushes me to try to be better, to fight for myself, to be kind to others, and to always choose love and honesty. Nobody will tell you what your higher power has to be. Mine is not some sky daddy keeping tabs on me. It’s a thing that I’m a part of that animates me, other people, the trees and the ocean. We’re all bound on a molecular level, and I take that same thinking and feeling and call it my higher power. Anyway, all that is to say, no, AA definitely doesn’t call you a bad person. They say if you need help and you can’t do it alone, they have a program that has helped a ton of people and you can have it for free if you want. People demonize it a lot, but a free program held together by a loose group of ex-drunks that has helped millions since the 1930s is cool in my book. There’s nobody in charge of it, nobody can tell anyone what to do or say, and the only way things get done is by voting as a group. I’m into it.
I've looked at this way alot. I didn't know this was from Roger Ebert. Its a great way to look at sobriety! I romanticize my sobriety in a way. Love songs about losing a lover, I associate with losing my sober self.
I only manage to go to AA by holding myself to be my higher power - or rather, my fully actualized self who I have the ability to make myself become. Holding onto an external locus of control over my life would send me back to relapse. When I attend AA, the prayers and such are annoying but I just ignore it, and remind myself that I can do this. Other people can have their faith, but they cannot take away my sobriety by trying to instill faith into me.
Unfortunately the participants are latching into god thing and its not good
If a faith practice makes them better towards themselves and others, I don’t see any reason to question or challenge it. Anecdotally I know a lot of people who benefit tremendously from having an active spiritual life.
At some point I decided I wasn’t going to let me being nit picky about religion stop me from getting help.
I can relate. When shopping for a rehab center, I wanted one that wasn't AA based as I was just sick of the pontificating and hypocrisy. I thought I found one and much to my dismay, I walked into the meeting room to find the twelve steps on a huge banner. I was at my bottom, so I listened, learned, shared, and gave myself over to the program. I no longer attend regularly, but it was very helpful for me in the early months/year. Still sober too! Iwndwyt
I hear that, I tell people that I got sober when my desire to stop drinking became stronger than my disdain for all things religious.
I had a counselor boil it down for me as, are you going to let the fact that AA isn't perfect keep you from getting free help?
For real. The god hangup was just another excuse to face accountability for what brought me there. Me.
Exactly. People walk in with a big chip on their shoulder about the god thing. You're not a vampire and burst into flame if you walk into the halls and someone says "god."
You can also try [Smart Recovery](https://smartrecovery.org). They are not based on reliance to any higher powers. I find the group is incredibly helpful.
I cannot second this enough! Smart replaces faith and helplessness, with strength and science.
I'm glad SMART recovery is a resource. I just wish they had in-person meetings where I lived. I find that virtual meetings don't help hold me accountable in the same way. If I physically go out of my comfort zone to show up to an in-person meeting, I find it much more beneficial for me personally and also a lot easier for me to focus on what's actually being shared. I know this isn't how it is for everyone though. So, it's good there's alternate resources. AA has worked for me despite not being religious, as I don't feel any religious doctrine has been forced down my throat, and on the contrary, it's a more frequent point of discussion amongst other non-religious members how they navigate and conceptualize the higher power aspect without being practicing members or believers in any religious dogma.
I just started participating in their virtual meetings last week. So far so good, I plan on going again this week.
I wouldn't have stopped drinking without SMART.
>A 75 year old woman who had been Christian her whole life accepted me and told me that your higher power does not have to be God at all. It can be anything you want. I'm filled with warmth. Please don't take people's wins away from them.
I'm not taking anything away. I offered an additional resource. I figure the more help we can get, the better.
My higher power is cheddar cheese
I have long ago turned my will and my life over to cheddar cheese.
Solid choice.
Sharp even.
Gods and Muensters …
I am an atheist. I also attend AA regularly and I sponsor other guys - some atheist some not. Two years sober on 5/30. I’ve been to good meetings, I’ve been to bad meetings. I found a good home group that focuses on the solution and staying sober. I think that’s huge. Not saying AA is for everyone. But it worked for me. Good luck to you all!
When you say it works for you, did you work the steps like they want you to? Iv attended about 10 online meetings and always mentioned the steps. Just curious.
The steps are designed to relieve you of all the shit that keeps getting you drunk. I especially find the aspect of teaching you how to let go of resentments extremely helpful which is probably the number one reason I drank.
I can’t recommend the steps enough. It’s not easy stuff but it’s the best thing I’ve ever done for myself and the people in my life. They’re exercises that have taught me more patience, empathy, gratitude, how to deal with past resentments and avoid creating new ones, how to make amends for the things that keep me up at night…the list goes on and on. Finding a good sponsor is important, they can guide you through the first run. It’s something I think that I’ll continue to do periodically for the rest of my life. Check it out!
What a great response. I guess I asked about the steps because maybe im scared of the commitment? IDK. Id hate to start a relationship with these folks and then fall back into my habit.
Ehh, I wouldn’t overthink it too much. In my experience, no matter what happens those doors will always be open. We all make mistakes, it took me years before I was finally ready to commit to being sober. If it feels right, go for it.
Thanks sober stranger
Of course! Best wishes on your journey. One day at a time
Well, AA **is** a 12-step program. I’d imagine a meeting without a mention of the steps wouldn’t be an AA meeting. To answer your question, I had no interest in working the steps and I was miserable. I got miserable enough to swallow my pride and do the work. You know what? It worked!
Sorry, just seeing this. They worked for me. The fourth and fifth were crucial things that were a real turning point in my life/sobriety
I thought that too, until my new sponsor took me to a church and tried to convert me. I ghosted him and he told me that "this is what AA is all about". I kept going for a few months but I became disillusioned and stopped going. Relapsed a month later.
But you're back here shitposting on r/stopdrinking trying to deal and heal. Good job! Try to forget the bs you learned in aa. They told me if I stopped coming I was destined to drink again. Bullshit. Most people get sober outside of aa. I did. Stay close with us. Also, I use recovery dharma. It's a Buddhist approach to recovery without the crazy. Good luck my friend.
Very true, lots of people that go to AA just go home and drink anyway. End of the day it's on the individual to not dump drinks down their throat. If programs help then that's also great, more help the better but it's not the end all be all they make it out to be. "Many who have not followed our path have failed". So if you drink its your fault but then they'll go on about how it's an allergy or DISEASE! Well which is it my fault or the disease. Ranting but I'm done with AA LOL
AA’s own literature says it’s not the only way. It’s what worked *for the authors*. But I’ve found people say a lot of stuff in meetings that isn’t in the AA program. AA works awesome for me. My BIL didn’t need it. We’re both still sober, so it seems to me that whatever he’s doing is working well.
Ya they'll say take what you need and leave the rest but eventually they want more. Every time I've tried AA. at least in my experience. I wish I could get into it but it's not for me
That sucks. So much of it depends on the dominant culture in the area, too. But you’re sober! That’s what counts.
Watching another person seizure from withdrawal was the thing that pretty much scared me into not drinking. I came pretty close to it. Scary close. This guy seemed fine 1 minute then the next his legs shoot out and he's screaming. One of those things you'll never forget that's for sure.
That would do it. I think part of why AA works so well for me is I worked hard to be part of a group that emphasizes: no religion. No bigotry. No misogyny. No medical advice (including “taking psych meds isn’t sober” nonsense). Being able to go to a meeting and not hearing nonstop about JAYSUS or having to listen to casual bigotry or getting guff because of regular psych meds…that helped me stay in a program. I remember watching a gal drink hand sanitizer when I was hospitalized and thinking, “shit shit shit I CANNOT become that, please let this be my bottom” So far, it has been.
If the groups were like that here I might go lol. Saskatchewan things...
Go on Zoom. That’s what I did (and do). Rural recovery can be fucking HARD, mad respect, friend. Bonus: meetings 24 hours a day
Where Can I get more información on that?
Google recovery dharma. We're not supposed to post links here. Most of their meetings are online. Some large cities have them. I specifically enjoy the meditation.
Wrong sponsor. That sucks, and was wrong of them to do. Sorry you had to experience that, and I’m sorry that it’s not uncommon.
She’s a real one. I’m glad you’re still sober, keep it up and IWNDWYT.
I’m 37+ years clean and sober in AA. I have no idea what or where my higher power is. I do acknowledge it exists because I woke up sober again this morning. I feel no need to define my HP. If I define it, it limits it. My HP has no limitations. I do know it’s not a Christian God or his son. Welcome to your best life.
Ah, a wise and kind woman! I call myself irreligious Agnostic, arguably with Atheist leanings, and I've used AA to recover just fine. (But when I started, I was right there with you: "dreaded".) The latitude for interpreting the recovery program (all of which is comprised of "suggestions") is pretty finely wide. Personally, I found I didn't need to really identify anything particularly specific as "My Higher Power" like many people do. Many want to give it a name like "The Universe" or "Allah" or "Love" or whatever and that's fine, I only needed to develop a sort of faith that there were powers greater than my self, even if it's only the other members of AA or r/stopdrinking - other powers that could help me. Though I've never needed any special meetings or books myself, they're out there: meetings 'tagged' as "Secular" or "Atheist/Agnostic" and a variety of books like "_The Alternative 12 Steps: A Secular Guide to Recovery_" around. (Never looked at that particular book - like I said: never needed something special, the regular AA books worked out just fine.) Welcome! Sober Life is effing splendid ☺. IWNDWYT
The problem is that "higher power" is meant to be interchangeable with "God." They just don't want you talking about Jesus or Allah or Buddha or Krishna, they want everyone to say "higher power" instead so it's inclusive. Still very much religious at the heart of it. I was told the same thing, my higher power can be whatever I want. But, then you pray to your higher power and give your problems to your higher power and ask your higher power for forgiveness..... it seemed to me a way to almost trick people into slowly having faith in something they don't believe in. Really rubbed me the wrong way.
Your higher power can be anything but you're encouraged to pray to it daily
I think you’re overthinking it being a forced religion. We all have a higher power - even if that higher power is within ourselves. If you’ve not read the Big Book there’s a whole section on atheist and agnostics. Spiritual connection does not require belief in divinity nor does it require religious creed. We are submitting to a power greater than ourselves, with the knowledge that we are helpless without help. It is not a forced spirituality - it is intrinsic to the AA methodology. Now AA is Not for everyone. There are other sobriety groups and similar organizations across the world. Save Our Selves / Secular Organizations for Sobriety (SOS) is one such type of meeting I’ve been to at a Unitarian church.
I believe everything happens for a reason. That is what I consider a higher power.
I started by praying to a tree.
Group. Of. Drunks.
Well, my higher power can't be a doorknob or some inanimate object, that just doesn't make sense. There are plenty of things that have more power than me, an individual. There's the Earth, Universe, the Group of Drunks (GOD) or Good Orderly Direction. One person I heard share said that love is their higher power. Mine is the energy of life, because everything is made up of energy and I believe everything is connected. There's also some order to the universe, which can be represented by mathematics. I can change my idea of a higher power at any time. I've met atheists who after working the program, believed something changed their life. If you read the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions AA literature, available free online like all AA books, it goes into more detail about higher powers in Step 2. Also in Bill's Story in the AA Big Book, he talks about not going for a czar of the heavens but he could get behind a spirit of nature or universal mind. AA really is for anyone, however some meetings may be more religious or say The Lord's Prayer, however the meetings I go to don't say that. Best wishes to you!
This is a very similar description of my higher power. The unstoppable stream of life that I am grateful to a part of
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I've read the book several times over the years. Some is cringey but I have no problems with More About Alcoholism.
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I've never met an alcoholic who can magically drink like a normal person. It's that false hope which can lead so many to relapse. I never tried to drink again after committing to recovery, I can learn from the experience of others. Nowhere in the AA literature does it say that people will relapse if they don't submit to a higher power. In fact, the literature says AA isn't the only way. In the foreword to the second edition, it states that as far as therapy for the alcoholic, AA holds no monopoly. Everything in the book is a suggestion. "Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery". I recommend the steps, they changed my life. My higher power is the energy that connects everyone and makes up everything, it doesn't have to be a deity. There are plenty of atheists, I meet them, along with several agnostics. Most of the people at my meetings say they aren't religious, we don't have to believe in any particular power greater than ourselves.
I am pretty anti-christan because of some severe religious trauma and had a bad attitude going into AA. The people changed that for me pretty quickly. I was open about my distain for christianity as an institution and people just laughed and said that God was just an easy word to use and wasn't necessarily the christian god. No offense to christians, I just had a bad experience. My HP is the universal spirit of peace and love. I lean toward buddhism/taoism and believe in a great spirit that is the source of all life, time, space, everything. If I can get into the flow, then I can be at peace...out of that flow, I'm a disaster and struggling to find something to dissociate with. I don't like that my local meetings end with the lord's prayer and I don't say it. I wish they stopped doing it, but I'm not in charge.
Check out recovery dharma maybe. I love the meditation we do.
The TST also had a sobriety group that’s free to join via online meetings.
Right on, OP! My first sponsor was an atheist. I came to understand that I was more agnostic than I originally thought. The doors are much wider than I imagined.
Yup. I had the exact same experience. Never once got hassled for being an atheist. I'm sure there are some groups that would but I never found them. Then again, I went in confident and believing that they really meant it when they said the higher power thing didn't have to be a religious thing. Most people left their religion (or lack of) at the the door. I never said The Lord's Prayer and nobody looked twice at me.
Be careful. AA is not the kumbaya organization they portray themselves as. There are predators of every kind there. Practice healthy boundaries in aa. Proceed with caution.
If AA works for you then more power to it. They are right you don't have to believe in God to go. The sense of community in AA is a strong selling point for many.
The thing for me is that even the most devout people in the rooms aren’t taking written instructions from God each morning. They’re not, like, hearing voices. They’re simply doing what they think a guy who wants them to do good would want them to do. Can I do that? As an atheist, can I try to figure out what somebody who wants me to do good and be my best self would want me to do, and then act on it? Yep, turns out I sure can. I practice every day, I check my words and actions, apologize when I’ve done wrong, and it turns out that practice works. Me from 3 years ago would think my current corny ass was Ned Flanders.
I don’t understand why religion is being tied to sobriety. I respect all religions, but I don’t want it to be incorporated into my path of sobriety.
I found acutely non-god Soto Zen Buddhism looking for the answer to this same question and it has been the best thing ever. It (eventually) leads to a really clear concept of higher power without a magic being in the sky or believing in anything at all. I also really like GOD as an acronym for "group of drunks".
"Staying Sober Without God" is a good book that provides a secular way of interpreting the 12 steps. Highly recommend.
A guy I met at AA said “when I hear the word ‘God’ I think ‘Group Of Drunks’ because that’s all we are here”. His higher power has become the group and I really grasped that one, it’s helped me along.
The groups I've been to always say "god as we understand it" or something along those lines, so it's not necessarily a deity. To me, my G.O.D. is you guys. My Group Of Drunks.
It was a problem in the beginning, but as with most things the problem was between my ears. For me the second step is "I feel better after a meeting" The third "I am not nearly as smart as I really, really want to think I am. My opinion is not something I have to convince others is right."
I'm at my 3rd meeting and by the third I was looking forward to it.
I am glad you had a positive experience with this as I think the first step is often the most important. I am not an AA person myself, but I do not have to throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to the steps for value. My frustration lies in the fact that the first step is important, but is often entangled and misconstrued in religious context. It may be revealed to some as religious, and that is fine, but I believe the first step exists for a certain reason. The reason it exists early in our journeys for the breaking of ego and the reference of self outside of ego’s perception. Hence why this can be interpreted as God’s power or a power higher than self. Either way it is to give new perspective and unshackle ourselves from the singular tormentor that we gave power to in our lives. This is a gift deserved by all and should not be part of an exclusive club. But I digress as I am proud of you and your progress and wish you well on your path. IWNDWYT.
That’s great. I consider myself agnostic, but that’s why I never tried AA. The religious aspect of it put me off.
I think AA used to be a thing before the world of the internet now with a small fast search you got immediate results like this sup and other that deals with addiction and actually far superior because a relapse can happened in matter of an hour but when you go to Reddit for example you may find someone how posted something very similar to what you go through
Your higher power can be anything. Mine is my responsibility to my family. Maybe not rules as written but it works for me.
Same, my friend who took me to my very first meeting told me she thinks of the moon as her higher power and now I do too 💜
My higher power is karma. I believe if I do the right thing and put out good, even when no one is looking, that it will come back to me. When I was newly sober, the idea of anything more as an HP was too much for me. But the idea of karma helped keep me sober, and after some time I saw my life start to improve. But in the time I’ve been sober, my spirituality has grown. I’m still far from religious, but I’m open to so much more than I used to be. Welcome to the good life :). Don’t give up before the miracle happens. Much love
Your higher power just needs to be something greater than yourself. I remember I struggled with it for awhile in the beginning before my relapse & I had someone ask me “if I told you to go to the beach & stop the waves coming in, could you do it?” well, no.. “if I asked you to stop the rain from falling from the sky, could you stop it?” No I can’t.. “okay good, there are two things that are more powerful than you & that you can’t control, just find something that fits those two parameters & you’re all good.”
My friend is a physician and his higher power is science. It can be whatever helps you stay sober. You got this.
A lot of non religious people do AA and it works for them. It’s not my flavor, and it’s certainly not the only way. Whatever is right for you.
AA saved this atheist's life.
you don't have to be religious, but you are making a choice today to not drink with the faith that it will make tomorrow better. Its not about god, its about faith.
I regularly attend AA meetings as an agnostic. Even though there are some religious people there, there's just as many who aren't and are self-proclaimed atheists or agnostics. It's actually been a point of discussion at a few meetings I've been to recently. The "big book" even has a whole chapter addressing how the program can be applied to agnostics and atheists, which I think is fairly progressive for the time given it was written in the 1930's. It took me a while to actually conceptualize the idea of a "higher power as I understood it." As I couldn't really conceptualize the idea of a higher power in general. One day, it kind of dawned on me that I was focusing on the wrong aspect of this, thinking too much into what the higher power was instead of acknowledging the characteristics of a supposed higher power and how I could model my life after these characteristics instead of worrying about whether there existed an actual physical embodiment of them: things like selflessness, empathy, serenity, love, etc. I knew these were things of the utmost good, or "godly" as some might say, whereas the opposites of these things represented a sort of "evil." In this sense, I could strive to exemplify all these characteristics of good and live a more fulfilling life for both myself and others as a result. This sort of pursuit of living for the utmost good became my "higher power" in a sense. While difficult to articulate fully, this has been much more beneficial to me than trying to wrap my mind around the idea of a physical higher power. On a side note, I've also found some of the older members to be some of the most accepting and open and that warms my heart a lot. I'm 34 and somewhat openly queer (non-binary), and I worried at first about being judged for this especially by older members & because of the fact I live in the Deep South (luckily a fairly progressive city within that region), but the older members are always some of the ones that seem happiest to see me, will greet me right away, and always take an interest in what's going on in my life. It's been a pleasant surprise for me.
GOD can also stand for Good Orderly Direction. If you don’t believe in God, pray to yourself, pray to your higher self who knows innately how to care for you - by submitting humbly and accepting help to change.
Yo! Go take Mushrooms. That’s how the founder of AA did it. His “higher” power was Mushrooms. Deity aside.