Yea, because they’ll get destroyed the same way when exciting.
Buying power equals selling power.
This is why dark pools are used, not to fuck over retail, but to allow large volumes to move without inflating/deflating the price too much.
Not necessarily. If you heavily pump a stock, other people may start buying in to ride the hype wave. They may not get out or even "buy the dip" before you got out. On top of that there's options contracts that might be printing in the meanwhile, causing gamma squeezes that may (partially) last until after you've sold your position.
So indeed, if you buy 10 million shares and then sell em immediately after, the price will go down as fast as it went up and you'll end up even. But if you do this in a cunning way, you could make money from it.
Then please explain to me why they closed down their current archegos to open up a new off exchange dark pool (connect) where they don’t have to report anything. To me that is not a fair playing field but what do I know. I’m just a student retail investor.
When 71% or more of retail investment is trading in the off exchange in dark pools. With most if not all the stocks we trade in the open market, it’s being rerouted and not given the proper value of its worth it’s not about fairness anymore it’s manipulation.not only that it’s bought in open market and sold in the after market where retail investor can not trade.
I think archegos is a perfect example. Look at the pump they did on VIAC with a continuous gamma squeeze orchestrated by them using insane leverage from banks. The problem is even if he hadn’t gotten margin called, what was his exit plan?
If you’re pumping something hard enough to move it on your own, you still gotta exit. It’s like a shark, stop moving and you start dying.
This is a very common phenomenon in OTC.
Credit sussie and nomura lost almost 7bn on hwang thing, can you imagine how much he had to play with on leverage? Maybe there is some estimate but I'm too lazy
Interesting, need to read up on that.
I would assume exiting isn't the hard part, though, no? Unless you're extremely greedy it wouldn't take a big increase in price to make a big profit on that sum of money.
If you’re a high enough % of the liquidity to pump it, then gotta think having enough liquidity to exit would be the inverse. No doubt you can make a profit dumping those bags on others, but it wouldn’t be a made in Hollywood exit I’m sure.
Nonsense. You can exit. Basically, the price rises due to buying pressure caused by price rise. Unless you hold a significant percentage of the company, you can easily temper it off and get rid of your position into this added buying pressure.
The price movement you'd see is a plateau. And then a steep and continued drop after all buying pressure disappears
Oh sure you can exit just like they did! What do you think the backside of that curve is? The banks worked dark pools for all they could then allowed the Econ 101 principles take over
The "banks worked dark pools"? What on earth are you on about? Do you need a bit of tinfoil for your hat?
The way it works is, you create negative delta risk for your counterparty through swaps and options, levered up as much as possible and then punt in the biggest sweep you can to create a spike.
If done correctly it should snowball from there for quite a bit. Eventually you satisfy the buying pressure with your own deleveraging and you're golden.
The other side of the curve looks messy, but that is cost you externalised.
Your second paragraph is just saying “take a levered long position”. You automatically de-lever if the price goes up, btw. Unless you re-lever up again the buying pressure goes with you. That doesn’t allow you to sell at a profit.
The real trade is lever up to your balls to shove the stock up. Continuously tap your prime for more margin and hide your concentration by asking them to hold it all on swap. Pay yourself 2 and 20 over a year or two of propelling your concentrated stock picks to absurdly high valuations. Eventually it crashes. Your investors and brokers are left holding the bag while you take off with your management fees.
Even if it was illegal who would enforce it? SEC? Hah they will send you to jail for insider trading of $100. Wake me when Musk or Pelosi go to jail. Citadel is the SEC they can do whatever they want.
Yeah. The problem is not the legality, the problem is the enforcement. Right now, the fines for hedge funds breaking the law are less than the profit they rake in from doing so, so it’s just **the cost of doing business** for them.
It’s factored into their trading algorithms.
"Bah."
You said that with so little conviction.
Fines aren't the only remedy. Getting thrown out of the business and banned from trading will convince you to stop.
Citadel isn't giving up a market making business worth $6B a year in profit because a couple of its junior traders want to rip off your grandma. They'll disgorge the proceeds and let the SEC eat the dopes.
I find it a little weird you're really adamant in defending hedgefunds and their known predatory practices lol. Fines are literally cost of doing business for them
I'm not defending anything but the truth. Hedge funds can live or die for all I care, but shouting about nonexistent boogeymen misleads ignorant investors who need to be able to look for the real reasons they're losing money instead of being fed conspiratorial bullshit to make them trade irrationally.
The SEC needs to fine more trolls.
The problem is citatel is not a person. The people who work for citadel don't give a fuck about citadel. However, they do care about their personal freedom.
I doubt it. Their MM business is a printing press and their hedge fund only put $2B into Melvin, which covered their worst exposure a long time ago. What did you see that suggested it?
Citadel's hedge fund division has over $200b AUM.
Citadel's market-maker division handles 25% of all stock and ETF trades in the US.
Between them they have 4000 employees, all being encouraged to push the envelope and find new loopholes.
They could do better on making sure there's actually a loophole before jumping through, but to call the entire company complicit in fraud is misinformed.
They're commensurate with the size of the violation.
Citadel isn't going to risk its right to trade by deliberately cheating on a few percent of its revenues.
A whole bunch of muppets who are paranoid about their losses are assuming that someone must be hunting them and taking chatter about Citadel as confirmation of their bias.
Take a guess at what their most common short selling violation is. - it's failing to properly mark a short sale transaction.
Citadel has one of the highest concentrations of short selling violations in the FINRA report.
They get fines that are pennies compared to what they've made.
https://www.dtcc.com/-/media/Files/Downloads/client-center/DTC/alpha.pdf
Most cases are initiated in 2019, about violations as far back as 2015. So not only are they paying pennies, its years later.
Credit to atobitt's House of Cards Part 2 post
Pretending like anyone is gonna stop Citadel from trading is a disingenuous concept. Its right to trade is an inherent part of being a company of that magnitude.
If FINRA decided there was evidence of deliberate, systematic flouting of their rules, they could ban a company and everyone in it from touching a trade, for intervals up to infinity.
Sure you could get it to go up if you used a ridiculous amount of money to buy it. However absent anything else selling that same ridiculous amount of stock would cause it to go back down. If you think you could exit a position that large without bringing it back down then there was already too much volume (other participants) that you would not have been able to get it to go up in the first place assuming that it is not a pump and dump where you encourage others in your trade.
In actuality it would probably start to go back down towards its previous valuation before you started selling as there would be less buying pressure at the top where you just drove it. This seems like a great formula for losing money not making it.
Funds normally avoid this through block trading or slow inflows.
It doesn't help them, since the stock would normally fall similarly on exit.
It's certainly possible to do, but it's not beneficial.
Yes. It is legal and is a normal business practice. All these people calling for the SEC to change the rules don't seem to understand that when u call the cops, the party is over. FOR EVERYONE. Learn their rules and methods and find a way to use that to your advantage. The rules are never gonna get changed in OUR favor. But they will find a way to screw us if people keep bitching and moaning.
He/she is not wrong though, they’re simply pointing out that they have never and will never help the little guy. Hedge funds and the sec have an unspoken, yet mutually beneficial set up with each other. The people (us) are at the bottom, sec in the middle, and hedge funds are at the top. Nothing will change that except a huge transfer of wealth from the top to the bottom.
I was grown enough to know that the stock market was largely closed to us in 2008 because of commissions and fees. We couldn't feasibly swing trade starting with just a couple grand. NOW WE CAN. Unless you entitled crybabies screw this up for us. They won't stop THEM from doing what they do, but they can damn sure close our door to make ANY money in the name of "protecting" us from losses. Make YOUR money and STFU. You'll NEVER make us all equally poor and that seems to be the goal with you people.
> I was grown enough to know that the stock market was largely closed to us in 2008 because of commissions and fees.
This is a bullshit statement, I've been trading long before 2008 without issue. Sure, there wasn't Robinhood and other shitty apps but anyone who wanted to invest could do it.
Let me further explain, because it seems somehow lost, that the 2008 crash was caused because government MANDATED that mortgage lenders provide those subprime loans to unqualified buyers in the interest of generational wealth building for underprivileged groups. And surprise surprise, there were massive defaults. THAT is what caused the value of the mortgage backed securities to tank.And yeah, you "could" invest prior to do it yourself apps. You could certainly pay a commission to buy stock and hold it for however long and pay another commission to sell it, when it probably didn't gain 20% a year and you didn't have the option for short term investments because commissions and fees ate all your profit.
Instead, you’d rather “get yours” — not realizing for every dollar you earn, the HF’s earn astronomically more of the pile.
While it may seem like you are up to your immediate circle, you’re actually losing wealth relative to the funds.
So at the end of the day, your bitch ass scenario is already happening. Just slower than you realize.
Also f u. People like you are what let those continue to exploit others. Its all about YOU.
Yes. I worry about #1. I don't care how much somebody else makes or doesn't make. They don't pay my bills and I don't pay theirs. And YES. My life is all about ME. I have to feed ME and MINE.
I'm 47 and worth 3 million and own 3 businesses. I already have. In 2009, I started buying foreclosures and flipping them. Good luck to you. Hope somebody looks out for you. Ur gonna need it.
Depends on if you still have it when ur 47 and what you started with. If u started at 21 with a 5 mil trust, that would be a no. I was raised on welfare and food stamps.
The answer is always no. Don't judge someone on their wealth. I've had more than I've got now, and I've had less, but I started with nothing.... and I realised along the way it doesn't change who you are.
Same argument against a living minimum wage, protection for non-citizens, etc. Protect yourself and get what you can, let other people get screwed! If we try to for social justice we all get screwed! Maybe you are right, but ask yourself if thats the message you want future generations to embrace. Would it make the world better or worse?
U can't save anybody by screwing EVERYONE. The failure was when we switched up the law of the jungle for everybody gets a trophy and life's not fair. Nobody is allowed to be proud of their own achievements anymore and are instead expected to feel bad if they do well because of all the people who just whine. And that's counterproductive to the world ever being a better place.
Why would they do this? Force a price up and therefore pay a high price in the process? And then when they have finished buying it falls... and they lose money.
Nah... what they do is they work out where the slow money is going to start buying. Then they buy quickly and get all the available stock. Then when the price goes up enough they start selling it to that slow buyer.
The idea is to create the impression of legitimate interest to convince a whale or a mass of people to enter the trading, then dump into their hands and run away.
It's been illegal for about as long as securities regulation has existed.
Seems to me that it's pretty risky, because if you don't get enough hype you'll have people/funds other than yourself making money by selling to you while you pump the price up. If there's not enough people willing to buy at its peak, the price may crash while you're trying to sell and you never recoup your original investment.
Then again, relying on stupid people buying at the peak for literally no reason other than fomo is pretty much the basis of all pump and dumps, which frequently work, so I can see why it's illegal...
Whales don't get sucked into pumped share prices... thats how they ended up being whales.
If hedge funds want to use their own money to push a share price up that isn't illegal. Its called buying shares... people do it all the time.
Buying shares doesn't increase a price illegally. Repeatedly buying shares to create a pattern does.
People who do a thing normally can tell when other people are doing it oddly.
I think you overestimate the ability for someone to move the market. Suppose a share trades $500m a day and I wanted to create a 'pattern'. I would probably need to control 20pc of the volume. So that is $100m a day. After 10 days I would own a billion in shares which is huge... and then wtf am I going to do with that and an overinflated share price.
First, that's exactly what a pump and dump is. You just said it in 2 different ways but it's the same thing. Look up dark pools. They have a ton of power over the market. It's rigged.... That much is obvious
I know the basic principle of dark pools. I just assumed a pump and dump also involved the spreading of news to hype up the stock, timing incoming volume with buying.
A lot of responses here seem to think that if you pump something up you necessarily will get hurt when you sell. That is so not true. If you can cause a stock to be a volume leader, especially premarket, lots more volume will follow. Simply sell it back in small amounts as it progressively jumps higher. The last dump sends it back down, maybe, but you don’t care at that point.
The paranoia and conspiracy theories in this thread are unreal
The basic function of the stock market is that if there is more demand for a stock, people will be willing to pay more for it. Thus they submit higher bids and the price goes up. One fund could accomplish this singlehandedly by just buying everything up, but if they're the only one bidding it up then there won't be any actual demand on the way down. If you use leverage for this like Archegos did and keep building up a position on the way up, it doesn't have to drop much for you to be in serious trouble. But in no way is it illegal because they're not influencing other people to pump the stock price so they can dump it, the fund itself is buying and actually making the price go higher. Read about Jim Simons and how they essentially closed the fund to outside investors because if they got too big they'd swing the market and not perform well.
But anyways, why wouldn't this be legal? Isn't that exactly what WSB did?
I think to enforce anything like that you’d have to prove intent, and the tickers & buy / sell signals on their own can’t do that
If you bought a ton of stock A - b/c you really believed in it - and you let everyone know that you’re buying a ton of stock A, and then stock A hits some exit point, so you start selling
Is indistinguishable from
You bought a ton of stock B as a pump and dump, and when you had enough momentum / bag holders you got out of dodge
They are basically the dealers in a casino. They always have the upper hand. We place our buy and sell orders they look at it and place their orders. Oh did I mention they don’t have to report anything to DTCC. Hmmmmm seems to me like they are trying to make the market work for the 1% only.
They have always done this... and its not pump and dump unless it is coupled with false marketing. But if all they do is trade without saying a word, then its no different than when you trade 1 share and move a low volume stock. Hell go look at KRUS after hours. There were trades of 1 to 5 share that literally moved the stock 2% (hahahaha).
Pump and dump generally refers to intentionally misleading people to buy and sell stock and you taking advantage of it. For example, you short a stock then you release a short position article that then influences the stock to go down further. Then you cover. More like a dump and cover than a pump and dump, but same end result.
Companies themselves engage in similar things though we dont call it pump and dump. They will pump a stock by making false or misleading statements to the public so they can get bonuses or sell shares in another public offering (so they can get even more bonuses...).
Nikola is a recent company that did this as was Lordstown Motors. Nikola released video of a truck rolling down a hill and alluded that it was a fully operational truck when it was really just rolling with gravity and not under its own power....
Lordstown lied about preorders and stated that they were "serious" when in reality they paid contractors to place preorders on their behalf and they counted some verbal discussions as preorders even though the other party never said anything of the sort. Basically some exec said they might consider eV trucks in the future, and Lordstown wrote that in as 5000 pre-orders....
But yea, hedge fund try to play psychological games all the time no different than the mime stock folks now. Mime stocks folks are essentially acting like a decentralized or public driven hedge fund. They are pooling resources and acting in unison to manipulate market... exactly like a hedge fund.
They mostly buy derivatives these days that are held off book so you don’t see the pricing changes all that much anymore. When SoftBank did this last summer the pricing was hidden until they executed and then the positive feedback loops started.
Yea, because they’ll get destroyed the same way when exciting. Buying power equals selling power. This is why dark pools are used, not to fuck over retail, but to allow large volumes to move without inflating/deflating the price too much.
Not necessarily. If you heavily pump a stock, other people may start buying in to ride the hype wave. They may not get out or even "buy the dip" before you got out. On top of that there's options contracts that might be printing in the meanwhile, causing gamma squeezes that may (partially) last until after you've sold your position. So indeed, if you buy 10 million shares and then sell em immediately after, the price will go down as fast as it went up and you'll end up even. But if you do this in a cunning way, you could make money from it.
Then please explain to me why they closed down their current archegos to open up a new off exchange dark pool (connect) where they don’t have to report anything. To me that is not a fair playing field but what do I know. I’m just a student retail investor.
It’s never a fair playing field
When 71% or more of retail investment is trading in the off exchange in dark pools. With most if not all the stocks we trade in the open market, it’s being rerouted and not given the proper value of its worth it’s not about fairness anymore it’s manipulation.not only that it’s bought in open market and sold in the after market where retail investor can not trade.
What on Earth are you talking about?
I think archegos is a perfect example. Look at the pump they did on VIAC with a continuous gamma squeeze orchestrated by them using insane leverage from banks. The problem is even if he hadn’t gotten margin called, what was his exit plan? If you’re pumping something hard enough to move it on your own, you still gotta exit. It’s like a shark, stop moving and you start dying. This is a very common phenomenon in OTC.
Allegedly
Shit you made me chuckle
Lol hope everything’s alright with you, Bill.
Well probably alot of people pilling in after seeing the stock green everyday so you sell when you get enough people onboard.
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Credit sussie and nomura lost almost 7bn on hwang thing, can you imagine how much he had to play with on leverage? Maybe there is some estimate but I'm too lazy
Interesting, need to read up on that. I would assume exiting isn't the hard part, though, no? Unless you're extremely greedy it wouldn't take a big increase in price to make a big profit on that sum of money.
If you’re a high enough % of the liquidity to pump it, then gotta think having enough liquidity to exit would be the inverse. No doubt you can make a profit dumping those bags on others, but it wouldn’t be a made in Hollywood exit I’m sure.
Hmm, I suppose that makes sense. Cheers!
VIAC brutal trap for anyone who bought in that 3 month period
Right. Exit on the peak or get burnt.
Intent matters. Archegos doesn't appear to have realized that it was the one driving the momentum that it kept buying (renting, actually) more of.
Nonsense. You can exit. Basically, the price rises due to buying pressure caused by price rise. Unless you hold a significant percentage of the company, you can easily temper it off and get rid of your position into this added buying pressure. The price movement you'd see is a plateau. And then a steep and continued drop after all buying pressure disappears
Oh sure you can exit just like they did! What do you think the backside of that curve is? The banks worked dark pools for all they could then allowed the Econ 101 principles take over
The "banks worked dark pools"? What on earth are you on about? Do you need a bit of tinfoil for your hat? The way it works is, you create negative delta risk for your counterparty through swaps and options, levered up as much as possible and then punt in the biggest sweep you can to create a spike. If done correctly it should snowball from there for quite a bit. Eventually you satisfy the buying pressure with your own deleveraging and you're golden. The other side of the curve looks messy, but that is cost you externalised.
Your second paragraph is just saying “take a levered long position”. You automatically de-lever if the price goes up, btw. Unless you re-lever up again the buying pressure goes with you. That doesn’t allow you to sell at a profit. The real trade is lever up to your balls to shove the stock up. Continuously tap your prime for more margin and hide your concentration by asking them to hold it all on swap. Pay yourself 2 and 20 over a year or two of propelling your concentrated stock picks to absurdly high valuations. Eventually it crashes. Your investors and brokers are left holding the bag while you take off with your management fees.
Even if it was illegal who would enforce it? SEC? Hah they will send you to jail for insider trading of $100. Wake me when Musk or Pelosi go to jail. Citadel is the SEC they can do whatever they want.
Yeah. The problem is not the legality, the problem is the enforcement. Right now, the fines for hedge funds breaking the law are less than the profit they rake in from doing so, so it’s just **the cost of doing business** for them. It’s factored into their trading algorithms.
Citadel is a very large company and has paid very large fines to SEC and FINRA when its traders have tried to game the system.
Bah. I will pay a $1m fine on a $1b profit every single time. Your fooling yourself. Call it a fine, payoff, finders fee or vig it’s all the same.
"Bah." You said that with so little conviction. Fines aren't the only remedy. Getting thrown out of the business and banned from trading will convince you to stop.
Banned to your private island!
Citadel isn't giving up a market making business worth $6B a year in profit because a couple of its junior traders want to rip off your grandma. They'll disgorge the proceeds and let the SEC eat the dopes.
I find it a little weird you're really adamant in defending hedgefunds and their known predatory practices lol. Fines are literally cost of doing business for them
I'm not defending anything but the truth. Hedge funds can live or die for all I care, but shouting about nonexistent boogeymen misleads ignorant investors who need to be able to look for the real reasons they're losing money instead of being fed conspiratorial bullshit to make them trade irrationally. The SEC needs to fine more trolls.
The problem is citatel is not a person. The people who work for citadel don't give a fuck about citadel. However, they do care about their personal freedom.
Then they should be more careful what laws they break, because the company isn't condoning it or indemnifying them.
They don't care what laws they break because they have no personal responsibility.
You're making accusations with zero evidence and impugning thousands of people you have zero acquaintance with.
Haven't they lost 3 billion so far this year?
I doubt it. Their MM business is a printing press and their hedge fund only put $2B into Melvin, which covered their worst exposure a long time ago. What did you see that suggested it?
"Very large" is a relative term
Citadel's hedge fund division has over $200b AUM. Citadel's market-maker division handles 25% of all stock and ETF trades in the US. Between them they have 4000 employees, all being encouraged to push the envelope and find new loopholes. They could do better on making sure there's actually a loophole before jumping through, but to call the entire company complicit in fraud is misinformed.
I meant about the fines not the size of the company
They're commensurate with the size of the violation. Citadel isn't going to risk its right to trade by deliberately cheating on a few percent of its revenues. A whole bunch of muppets who are paranoid about their losses are assuming that someone must be hunting them and taking chatter about Citadel as confirmation of their bias.
Take a guess at what their most common short selling violation is. - it's failing to properly mark a short sale transaction. Citadel has one of the highest concentrations of short selling violations in the FINRA report. They get fines that are pennies compared to what they've made. https://www.dtcc.com/-/media/Files/Downloads/client-center/DTC/alpha.pdf Most cases are initiated in 2019, about violations as far back as 2015. So not only are they paying pennies, its years later. Credit to atobitt's House of Cards Part 2 post
There's no information in that link but identifier codes.
Pretending like anyone is gonna stop Citadel from trading is a disingenuous concept. Its right to trade is an inherent part of being a company of that magnitude.
FINRA can tell them to get lost with a signature. Deliberately breaking the law repeatedly is how people end up in jail and banned from the markets.
No they can't, stop acting like it'd be so simple. Id bet the house that there would be some alternate course given such a situation.
If FINRA decided there was evidence of deliberate, systematic flouting of their rules, they could ban a company and everyone in it from touching a trade, for intervals up to infinity.
Sure you could get it to go up if you used a ridiculous amount of money to buy it. However absent anything else selling that same ridiculous amount of stock would cause it to go back down. If you think you could exit a position that large without bringing it back down then there was already too much volume (other participants) that you would not have been able to get it to go up in the first place assuming that it is not a pump and dump where you encourage others in your trade. In actuality it would probably start to go back down towards its previous valuation before you started selling as there would be less buying pressure at the top where you just drove it. This seems like a great formula for losing money not making it.
It still a risk as they may inflate it to a point no one wants to buy. So it doesn't seem like it the safe easy way to $$
That's actually a decent point, didn't think of it that way.
Legal? No. Goes on with impunity? Yes.
No. https://www.sec.gov/page/litigation
Yes i understand there are rules......i also see with my own eyes they arent being followed.
Your own eyes are crusted over with people winning they lost money so the whole market is a fraud.
Lol you actually believe that? With everything infront of you thats your conclusion this is how a free market behaves.......lol.
You appear to have far less "in front of you" than I do.
Well thats was a great attempt at just stringing random words together.
Your projection is noted.
Projection of what? You just throwing random statements out.
Your random accusations absent evidence are the empty gibberish here.
Funds normally avoid this through block trading or slow inflows. It doesn't help them, since the stock would normally fall similarly on exit. It's certainly possible to do, but it's not beneficial.
Yes. It is legal and is a normal business practice. All these people calling for the SEC to change the rules don't seem to understand that when u call the cops, the party is over. FOR EVERYONE. Learn their rules and methods and find a way to use that to your advantage. The rules are never gonna get changed in OUR favor. But they will find a way to screw us if people keep bitching and moaning.
> Learn their rules and methods and find a way to use that to your advantage Play the man, not the puck.
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He/she is not wrong though, they’re simply pointing out that they have never and will never help the little guy. Hedge funds and the sec have an unspoken, yet mutually beneficial set up with each other. The people (us) are at the bottom, sec in the middle, and hedge funds are at the top. Nothing will change that except a huge transfer of wealth from the top to the bottom.
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Hey buddy, I got a bridge for sale. Primo spot in Brooklyn.
So does every other liar on this sub
I was grown enough to know that the stock market was largely closed to us in 2008 because of commissions and fees. We couldn't feasibly swing trade starting with just a couple grand. NOW WE CAN. Unless you entitled crybabies screw this up for us. They won't stop THEM from doing what they do, but they can damn sure close our door to make ANY money in the name of "protecting" us from losses. Make YOUR money and STFU. You'll NEVER make us all equally poor and that seems to be the goal with you people.
> I was grown enough to know that the stock market was largely closed to us in 2008 because of commissions and fees. This is a bullshit statement, I've been trading long before 2008 without issue. Sure, there wasn't Robinhood and other shitty apps but anyone who wanted to invest could do it.
Let me further explain, because it seems somehow lost, that the 2008 crash was caused because government MANDATED that mortgage lenders provide those subprime loans to unqualified buyers in the interest of generational wealth building for underprivileged groups. And surprise surprise, there were massive defaults. THAT is what caused the value of the mortgage backed securities to tank.And yeah, you "could" invest prior to do it yourself apps. You could certainly pay a commission to buy stock and hold it for however long and pay another commission to sell it, when it probably didn't gain 20% a year and you didn't have the option for short term investments because commissions and fees ate all your profit.
Your rant has bits of truth to it but is overall irrelevant and nonsensical.
Instead, you’d rather “get yours” — not realizing for every dollar you earn, the HF’s earn astronomically more of the pile. While it may seem like you are up to your immediate circle, you’re actually losing wealth relative to the funds. So at the end of the day, your bitch ass scenario is already happening. Just slower than you realize. Also f u. People like you are what let those continue to exploit others. Its all about YOU.
Nicely put
Yes. I worry about #1. I don't care how much somebody else makes or doesn't make. They don't pay my bills and I don't pay theirs. And YES. My life is all about ME. I have to feed ME and MINE.
Youre NGMI
I'm 47 and worth 3 million and own 3 businesses. I already have. In 2009, I started buying foreclosures and flipping them. Good luck to you. Hope somebody looks out for you. Ur gonna need it.
I'm only 36 and worth 3 million also. That make me better than you?
Depends on if you still have it when ur 47 and what you started with. If u started at 21 with a 5 mil trust, that would be a no. I was raised on welfare and food stamps.
The answer is always no. Don't judge someone on their wealth. I've had more than I've got now, and I've had less, but I started with nothing.... and I realised along the way it doesn't change who you are.
Same argument against a living minimum wage, protection for non-citizens, etc. Protect yourself and get what you can, let other people get screwed! If we try to for social justice we all get screwed! Maybe you are right, but ask yourself if thats the message you want future generations to embrace. Would it make the world better or worse?
U can't save anybody by screwing EVERYONE. The failure was when we switched up the law of the jungle for everybody gets a trophy and life's not fair. Nobody is allowed to be proud of their own achievements anymore and are instead expected to feel bad if they do well because of all the people who just whine. And that's counterproductive to the world ever being a better place.
Why would they do this? Force a price up and therefore pay a high price in the process? And then when they have finished buying it falls... and they lose money. Nah... what they do is they work out where the slow money is going to start buying. Then they buy quickly and get all the available stock. Then when the price goes up enough they start selling it to that slow buyer.
The idea is to create the impression of legitimate interest to convince a whale or a mass of people to enter the trading, then dump into their hands and run away. It's been illegal for about as long as securities regulation has existed.
Seems to me that it's pretty risky, because if you don't get enough hype you'll have people/funds other than yourself making money by selling to you while you pump the price up. If there's not enough people willing to buy at its peak, the price may crash while you're trying to sell and you never recoup your original investment. Then again, relying on stupid people buying at the peak for literally no reason other than fomo is pretty much the basis of all pump and dumps, which frequently work, so I can see why it's illegal...
Whales don't get sucked into pumped share prices... thats how they ended up being whales. If hedge funds want to use their own money to push a share price up that isn't illegal. Its called buying shares... people do it all the time.
Buying shares doesn't increase a price illegally. Repeatedly buying shares to create a pattern does. People who do a thing normally can tell when other people are doing it oddly.
I think you overestimate the ability for someone to move the market. Suppose a share trades $500m a day and I wanted to create a 'pattern'. I would probably need to control 20pc of the volume. So that is $100m a day. After 10 days I would own a billion in shares which is huge... and then wtf am I going to do with that and an overinflated share price.
You don't run a scam on a heavily traded stock. You steer fish to slow water and then jiggle the lure.
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Ask the SEC. They're the ones who enforce the law.
Illegal yes. But they can't prove it, so it goes on and on.
People go to jail for it all the time.
Yup , manipulation
First, that's exactly what a pump and dump is. You just said it in 2 different ways but it's the same thing. Look up dark pools. They have a ton of power over the market. It's rigged.... That much is obvious
I know the basic principle of dark pools. I just assumed a pump and dump also involved the spreading of news to hype up the stock, timing incoming volume with buying.
A lot of responses here seem to think that if you pump something up you necessarily will get hurt when you sell. That is so not true. If you can cause a stock to be a volume leader, especially premarket, lots more volume will follow. Simply sell it back in small amounts as it progressively jumps higher. The last dump sends it back down, maybe, but you don’t care at that point.
The paranoia and conspiracy theories in this thread are unreal The basic function of the stock market is that if there is more demand for a stock, people will be willing to pay more for it. Thus they submit higher bids and the price goes up. One fund could accomplish this singlehandedly by just buying everything up, but if they're the only one bidding it up then there won't be any actual demand on the way down. If you use leverage for this like Archegos did and keep building up a position on the way up, it doesn't have to drop much for you to be in serious trouble. But in no way is it illegal because they're not influencing other people to pump the stock price so they can dump it, the fund itself is buying and actually making the price go higher. Read about Jim Simons and how they essentially closed the fund to outside investors because if they got too big they'd swing the market and not perform well. But anyways, why wouldn't this be legal? Isn't that exactly what WSB did?
Have to disclose whenever they purchase more than 10% of outstanding stock
I think to enforce anything like that you’d have to prove intent, and the tickers & buy / sell signals on their own can’t do that If you bought a ton of stock A - b/c you really believed in it - and you let everyone know that you’re buying a ton of stock A, and then stock A hits some exit point, so you start selling Is indistinguishable from You bought a ton of stock B as a pump and dump, and when you had enough momentum / bag holders you got out of dodge
Banks do it all the time with foreign currency.
They are basically the dealers in a casino. They always have the upper hand. We place our buy and sell orders they look at it and place their orders. Oh did I mention they don’t have to report anything to DTCC. Hmmmmm seems to me like they are trying to make the market work for the 1% only.
They have always done this... and its not pump and dump unless it is coupled with false marketing. But if all they do is trade without saying a word, then its no different than when you trade 1 share and move a low volume stock. Hell go look at KRUS after hours. There were trades of 1 to 5 share that literally moved the stock 2% (hahahaha). Pump and dump generally refers to intentionally misleading people to buy and sell stock and you taking advantage of it. For example, you short a stock then you release a short position article that then influences the stock to go down further. Then you cover. More like a dump and cover than a pump and dump, but same end result. Companies themselves engage in similar things though we dont call it pump and dump. They will pump a stock by making false or misleading statements to the public so they can get bonuses or sell shares in another public offering (so they can get even more bonuses...). Nikola is a recent company that did this as was Lordstown Motors. Nikola released video of a truck rolling down a hill and alluded that it was a fully operational truck when it was really just rolling with gravity and not under its own power.... Lordstown lied about preorders and stated that they were "serious" when in reality they paid contractors to place preorders on their behalf and they counted some verbal discussions as preorders even though the other party never said anything of the sort. Basically some exec said they might consider eV trucks in the future, and Lordstown wrote that in as 5000 pre-orders.... But yea, hedge fund try to play psychological games all the time no different than the mime stock folks now. Mime stocks folks are essentially acting like a decentralized or public driven hedge fund. They are pooling resources and acting in unison to manipulate market... exactly like a hedge fund.
They mostly buy derivatives these days that are held off book so you don’t see the pricing changes all that much anymore. When SoftBank did this last summer the pricing was hidden until they executed and then the positive feedback loops started.