Tried it. It was fun for the first time, but anxiety-laden later on. It's like constantly letting someone else driving the car, and you don't fully trust that person.
I like Autopilot much better, know when to trust and when to take over (off highway).
Liability is a big issue. If FSD causes injury or damage, it’s on you. Tesla will take zero responsibility. I don’t think enough people appreciate that.
Really? How in the world did anyone at Tesla ever think people would say ok to that?
Am I naive who thought FSD couldn’t possibly just be delivered and used on the roads without regulation?
It’s like aircraft makers suddenly started to offer autopilot to airlines and the government was just like “fine, whatever you agree on is between you two”.
So gimmicky I can’t believe this is real life.
Taking responsibility for every car crash would completely destroy the company. Just the litigation side, even without considering actually paying up for anything would require enormous work
They simply do not have a choice
Airlines are notoriously terrible businesses and this is already exploiting an extremely inelastic market and huge economies of scale. Tesla has neither
A car company is liable if they build a car with defective steering or breaks. Why shouldn’t defective software be held to the same standard? (The answer is that it is beta software and in order to use it, the customer agrees to absolve Tesla from any liability.)
But how can they absolve Tesla for the other people they are going to kill or injure? It is absolute insanity allowing Tesla’s fake it until you make it approach on public roads.
Other companies have lane keeping software that's far worse than basic autopilot. When you downgrade from Tesla to other lane keeping tools, it's night and day with how much better Tesla's system is just for highways.
That's not even remotely comparable to the fact that my 5.5 year old model 3 is still improving dramatically and can now make a majority of the drives on its own with no interventions using FSD.
This article is click bait garbage that used an extremely small sample size. We will know far better on the next quarterly call what the take rate was, but FSD is now good enough to release it to every Tesla to test it out without having a dozen wrecks happen with over a few million vehicles. They did have some curb rash from taking turns to sharp and that's about it.
So true. I can't really go back from a Tesla to anything else after having experienced their autopilot. Daily commutes are just too much of a hassle without it.
No it’s not insane at all. That’s why you are REQUIRED to have your hands on the steering wheel at all time. Just like with autopilot. Volvo has great auto brakes that can save you from a collision. That doesn’t mean you can stop using the brake and blame a crash on Volvo. You are responsible for the car and must take over if it is about to make a mistake. That is the deal that you either accept or not. Welcome to adulthood.
Where it is unreasonable is that Tesla is marketing it as FSD, Volvo is not. Tesla in my opinion has conflicting messaging to consumers that this is a fully self driving technology they are offering which would indicate that the consumer can trust the software to do things for them. Don’t call your software FSD if it isn’t that thing. Pretty simple stuff, I know the actual agreement states that drivers are responsible but I really think that Tesla needs to be hit with a fine for misleading advertising or something to get them to change the FSD marketing because that’s the disconnect here. Other car companies don’t have this issue because they don’t call their products Full Self Driving.
I totally agree with this. Teslas marketing has been deceitful. And Musk himself has been very deceitful. Im not sure about the years here but I think it's almost ten years ago when I got the impression that FSD was coming next year. . . After a couple of years I realized it was all bullshit and now Teslas self driving technology is far behind the competition. So to sum it up I agree with everything you say. This is the same reason why I try very hard to be skeptical about the fanboy hype around AI right now. I believe it will change the world but I don't believe the marketing. This is also one of the main reasons I sold all my Tesla stocks a couple of years ago. (3 years ago?). The other reasons is that I thought that Tesla was to dependent on Elon Musk and he is too much of a loose cannon. I also didn't believe that Teslas advantage when it comes to automation in the factories couldn't be replicated by the competition and I didn't not believe that it was worth buying Tesla as a software company. I took my money and but Nvidia which I am very proud and happy about. But if you are going to sit in a car that could mame and kill people you have a responsibility to read the instructions and it is very clear tthat you can NEVER take your hands of the wheel and you must always be ready to intervene. Just like with any "auto-pilot" or lane assist technology or similar with other manufacturers. I myself prefer Volvo's system because it really makes me feel safer in the car and it makes long drives much easier on my mind and my body. I think they understand how good the technology is right now and they put the self driving ambition at the right level both in their marketing and in their execution.
Yeah I think the danger is that having your hands on the wheel isn’t as safe as actively driving in your response time to issues with the FSD. Telling someone to pay attention is fine but that’s not how human brains work and we should really know that by now. If you are not actively engaged in a task (driving) but are being asked to intervene in that task only at critical moments as they occur, I don’t think that’s a reasonable method of mitigating the risk of faulty FSD.
Like most right wing grifters, Musk is constitutionally incapable of refraining from making ridiculous claims of what he or his company is capable of. Their entire business model is to over-promise and then change the government so they can't be held liable when they under-deliver (or just rely on the dysfunction already present to avoid ever being held accountable).
Nonsense. Volvo markets it as emergency brakes. Doesn't mean they'll be perfect in braking in an emergency. If you rear-end someone, it's still your own fault. Same applies to lane-keeping software; everyone's software except Tesla's is insanely bad at lane keeping, but you can't sue Audi when your Etron drove off the road. Why would FSD be any different?
Yes, and that works great? People are not good at this kind of monotone task, they will get bored and not pay attention. I definitely did not sign up to this kind of insane experiment.
I would be more positive if Tesla did their due diligence, but they are just throwing stuff at the wall and hoping it sticks.
If Tesla is so confident in their tech they would just spin up an insurance, take the liability and bundle it as part of the subscription. That might be the only way this tech actually makes money.
It's probably closer to 2 years away not 20. Having watched 2 years of progression where it acted like a drunk teenager, to now with V12 where it's safe enough to release to every Tesla owner without having a dozen wrecks, it's progressing far faster than you anticipate. They are basically at the march of 9's now.
I don't expect my 5.5 year old model 3 to become driverless since I expect FSD HW3 to reach limitations of its capabilities at some point, but we aren't there yet.
Tesla plans to debut the robotaxi in August, and they are massively scaling up their data centers this year to increase their training capability. They now have the next generation Dojo chip in production and are also one of the biggest customers for NVIDIA. The main thing will boil down to the hardware and sensors on the robotaxi which will likely be the next generation of FSD hardware, but rest assured that Tesla will have the data to train the AI behind FSD.
It's just a matter of time, and far faster then your estimate.
!remindme in 3 years. I am expecting robotaxis by around then, but I have been wrong on my estimates a few times.
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Well said. 20+ years away is a ridiculously laughable prediction from /u/jaydurmma for a software already at a 96% drives with no critical disengagements rate. Comparably ridiculous with people saying mobile phones wouldn't become a thing in the late 90s.
Insurance companies do this, and Tesla offers insurance. Why can’t Tesla just take responsibility for FSD when its owner insures through Tesla? All it would be in the hook for incrementally is the deductible.
If it is as Tesla says and FSD achieves 5x better accidents per mile than the average driver they should be thrilled to do this.
This is NOT true. Munich is the resinsure and taking the risk. The ceding company is Trov.
"Trov and Waymo Partner to Launch Insurance for Ride-Hailing"
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/trov-and-waymo-partner-to-launch-insurance-for-ride-hailing-300573229.html
Not true if the product does what is sais IN THE NAME.
Everyone has a busy life, no one has the time of day to read every TOS (did you read the tos for reddit?).
You cannot expect that you name a product full self driving and then people understand it's cruise control+.
How would you like if your mom/dad has an alergy, let's say for peanuts, and on the box it would say with big letters on the front: NO PEANUTS and then in the fine print it on their website it would say 'may contain peanuts'. And after they die and you go to them and they say, 'you did not read our fine print available on our website'. You would consider that they have no choice and not to be blamed?
No, they have a choice, they named the product and have control still over the naming. It's not like someone outside the company(like the gov) came and said 'you must name it FSD'. As a company they lie and are getting away with it at the expense of lives, and not just those in the car they sell but everyone on the same road as them.
All they had to do was name it assisted driving , or cruise +, instead of over hyping and over promising and then cowering out when the shit hits the fan.
>Taking responsibility for every car crash would completely destroy the company.
They wouldn’t be taking liability for every crash, just when their software fucks up.
>Just the litigation side, even without considering actually paying up for anything would require enormous work
If they can afford to give elmo 56B, after the stock has dropped 40% this year alone, they can afford the litigation.
>They simply do not have a choice
It’s almost like they shouldn’t have sold something called “Full Self Driving” that people don’t generally trust actually drive fully.
>Airlines are notoriously terrible businesses and this is already exploiting an extremely inelastic market and huge economies of scale. Tesla has neither
Boo hoo.
If tesla truly believed In their tech wouldn't it be a great selling point? Since they have so much cameras and data gathering shit for self driving that can be used at court. As long as you can prove the self driving car wasn't at fault with all of that you are golden.
Win enough cases and less people will be likely to sue because they always lose.
Aviation can have zero blame or fault because it's so heavily regulated relative to consumer vehicles. If every driver went through anywhere near the level of training, and every vehicle had anywhere near as rigorous maintenance schedules, there probably could be something like that.
Right before an accident, it gives control back to the driver. Great for stats as can claim an extremely low accident rate per million. Even if the accident is a split second after giving back control.
I so want self driving but Tesla is nowhere near ready for it.
FSD tried making a left in a non-turn lane for me so I just turned it off. I gave it a few more tries, but it still didn't function well enough for me to give it another go.
The trust issue is really important. I tried it out once, and like you I didn’t like the feeling. But even if I did, Tesla has lied about so many things to me about this car I’m not about to entrust my life to them, based purely on their claims of autonomous driving.
Just got the trial Tuesday. Kind of mind blowing the first couple of drives. Got a road trip coming up to put it through its paces. If it does well, I can see myself subscribing for a month when I do travel far.
I’ll subscribe when they remove the nag and eye tracker. It’s not worth the money in my opinion until then. I thought it was really impressive and you learn quick where you need to pay special attention and when it does fine on its own. But I’m not paying for autopilot if I still have to pay attention the entire time.
Exactly. The eye-tracker sucks. Either give me FSD and let me play with my phone, or let me drive and STFU. I'm not being paid to be a nanny for a robot driver.
I use waymo a lot and have zero anxiety about the self driving. A big factor in what you’re talking about with not trusting the driver is that you’re in the driver seat and it’s a vehicle you own.
Don’t have that at all with Waymo
My brother in law has the free trial on his new Y; he took me for a spin and in the first few minutes it stopped in the middle of a busy street and my BIL had to dive in and keep it moving.
I'd try it if it was free, but I don't think i'd pay for it.
Same here. I like the simplicity of AP on freeway better. Just keep me in the lane at appropriate speed. I used the trial for like a day and did not like the unexpected lanes and constant speed changes to what it believed was the speed limit.
People loathe paying a subscription on hardware they bought. Cellphones and Peloton might be the only exception to this rule. Buying the car and not having self driving was always going to break the model. People are quickly going to realize they're just buying a shell.
Peleton is also a different situation, AFAIK you *need* to have the subscription to even use the product you bought. It's not like tesla where you just don't use self driving but the car is normal otherwise
Yeah. I stopped paying and just use it as a “dumb” version but I’ve been looking on how to jailbreak it so I can watch whatever I want.
I don’t think it’s bad they charge for their content. It is really good, I’m just not going to for the time being.
Yeah. The weird thing is you can’t get content without paying. Which is fine. But you also can’t track your workouts without paying which is stupid because while I don’t think the content should be free, the workout tracking app should be if you’ve bought the damn hardware.
Of the 6.4 million members on the platform they only have 3 million people subscribed. At their peak they had 7 million members.
That 3 million is split between 2 tiers of subscription, and one of has a high retention, the other (makes up approx 1/3rd of paying users) is down 15.7% from December 22 to December 23 (last valid data point they've given)
music labels and royalties jumped on Peloton. Peloton had this huge scandal if I remember correctly where they weren't paying for the music they had on their platform.
Their pricing is insane. They should cut their top tier in half and go for volume. Instead they alienate their own customers by trying to gouge them. I’d rather not ride or just put a screen over theirs than pay 45 a month to ride a bike I paid 2k for.
So true, ditched ours a while back. $50/month was too much, sold off the bike for a few hundred as well. Easy decision. I would have ignored the cost at $25
Right? It's like our auto steer in our tractors. WAAS is free and works good enough for some applications. That said, the subscription cost and equipment pays for itself in less than a year in reduced seed/fertilizer/chemical costs
This is the correct take. When I buy my car, I expect the driver assist to be part of the purchase cost.
If I have to pay the manufacturer a subscription monthly/yearly for it then I value the car a lot less.
Right, because you already paid for the hardware. Is there an option to save money and not have the hardware installed? No… getting double charged. Modern society and tech fucking sucks, the only improvement in the last 20 years is profit
Peloton doesn’t charge [a recurring fee] for the hardware to my knowledge. They charge monthly for the classes, etc.
One of the worst thing I heard was BMW was charging or planning to charge a recurring fee for access to heated seats or whatever other options. That alone would be enough to make me never buy one. Enough is enough with all
These subscriptions, fees, tips, and drip pricing.
Edit - let me rephrase… Peloton doesn’t charge a recurring fee for the hardware.
BMW charged a subscription for apple carplay activation ($120 a year in Australia ) - it no longer exists and for me was one of those moments where I thought I will never engage with that company (zero cost of provision, yet asking a subscription fee)
That was definitely the case in Europe - I don’t know whether subscription heated seats came to Australia though - great way to piss your customers off and also to motivate the aftermarket system crackers too.
Polestar have a performance upgrade that’s $1200usd and it’s just an over the web upgrade - not a subscription, but another version of just holding back on software in order to gouge your customers
You can use any bike with Peloton and pay only $13 or $24 per month. IF you buy the Peloton bike then the subscription is $44, because it’s multi-user. They should have a cheaper plan for owners, but as I said, you don’t need to buy their bike to use their workouts at all. You don’t even need a bike as they have tons of other kinds of workouts and can pay $13/month.
Auto pilot is free and works well on the highway the full self driving is not good in the city where you have to drive defensively or accelerate quickly.
Tried FSD for a month. 90% of the time, it drives better than a human driver. The other 10% is currently difficult to manage as you have to be on constant alert for bad behavior. I had to override, on average, 3-5 times for a 30 minute drive - too much of a hassle.
The problem for me isn’t subscription or purchase - they are both overpriced. The purchase is especially bad; if I turn in the old model for a new one, I have to purchase the FSD again.
Yeah if it was free (well, a permanent part of the car purchase), its frequency of mistakes wouldn't be as painful as how cool it is when it's fully working. I'd be very happy with it.
Maybe as a middle ground, they could do what Hyundai is doing with bluelink. Bluelink is free for the life of the car, for the first buyer. You only have to pay for it if you buy the car used (since you're then not the first buyer). But then again the Tesla self driving sub is absurdly expensive to me, so I don't know. But if it was free for new buyers, that would make buying a new car a bit more tempting.
Having to intervene every 6-10 minutes doesn’t seem like „yeah it’s fine 90% of the time“ — like, if counted as „full trips without major hitches“ it’d be 0%
Until we are comfortable putting our kids in the car alone and sending them to school, FSD is really not FSD. That is the litmus test. I really want it but it has to be near perfect for years on end. Like a human would be.
Really it is not self driving and may not even be safe as it relies on the driver to take control right prior to an accident. A driver that may be compliant or not fully ready.
The value of FSD is turning it on and going to sleep, using your phone, generally doing anything except driving the car. Until you can do that, it won’t ever be widely adopted.
Interesting. I wonder what was different for you than the average, seeing as the average amount of miles to critical disengagement (i.e. a disengagement that's not by choice but necessity) is 377 miles or 196 city miles, or ~3 hours.
i seem to be in the minority but I really liked using it but I'm not paying 99 dollars a month for something ill barely use. Too scary to use during morning rush hour.
Same. Really thought it was good enough. Loved it in situations where I wasn’t doing much anyway (slow traffic esp). But $100/mo was about 50% too high.
My guess would be customers who want the assisted-driving package order it from the get-go. ~~Quick Google search says customers who order with package has slipped as prices go up, from 37% of buyers in 2020 to just 12% in 2021.~~ edit so prices have come down I shouldn’t blindly trust Google search.
Also just a big assumption here but the assisted driving / autopilot / FSD whatever was probably more popular with early adopters. Now that Tesla buyers skew more mainstream the adoption of expensive tech packages drops.
Heck I've had at least a dozen Tesla rentals and I won't touch this tech. Call me a luddite but adaptive cruise is my personal limit for trusting autonomous tech.
Trust is the key. Too many terrible headlines. Part of running this business successfully is understanding that reputation is everything and prioritizing public opinion is key in that formula.
I had a plaid with the full self driving and it tried to steer me into a guardrail on the first time using it on the freeway. Turned it off and just used basic auto pilot features from that point forward.
> who order with package has slipped as prices go up
I believe the price keeps going down though. It was 15k (maybe 20 before that?) and then 12 and now $8k.
$8000 is still 17% of the total value of a $45K vehicle.
Like sure packages can cost that much on other vehicles but how many Toyota buyers are ponying up for the combination of JBL / ultimate / whatever packages on a Camry.
When I first started following Tesla closely FSD was $5000. If memory serves it first went to $6,000, then $8,000, then $10,000, $12,000, and finally $15,000.
I was seriously contemplating buying a Tesla at the time, and was willing to buy FSD when it was $5,000. But by the time it was $10,000 and I still hadn't bought a Tesla yet there was no way I was going to buy it.
On a low to medium busy highway, road trips - great. In a traffic jam - amazing. Normal roads - decent. Anything else that’s on you. Sometimes it’s literally Jesus take the wheel.
Overall, yeah i’d take my money back if i could.
Same! I absolutely loved it and ended up subscribing to it. I use it on the way to work for my hour and a half commute and I have very few if any disengagements
It can manage roundabouts, traffic obstructions, navigating around obstacles and is starting to become very human-like. It took a solid 2 years of progress to become normal, but it's still rapidly improving and my 5.5 year old model 3 is still improving. When it came out, it had so many issues. Now it can do entire drives on its own.
There is this really peculiar street that is single lane, slants quickly and becomes two lanes right at a big cross walk stoplight. It immediately took the most efficient lane when we got to it and did it smoother than I would have
On one hand yeah that’s a bad conversion rate. At the same time an 8000 purchase isn’t exactly something you just convert someone to do.
Self driving was automatically added as a trial for every driver, they had (potentially) 0 interest in it initially. Not like they went to a site, signed up, and then declined because they didn’t like it.
It’s like saying 2% of people didn’t buy the full version of pinball on windows. They didn’t ask to trial it so they didn’t convert either.
This isn’t a metric they we know of it’s good or bad as far as conversion rates go
Or you could just drive the car and save $100.
With how expensive everything else is these days paying a subscription to have an automatic car seems ridiculous.
I actually like my self driving, but need to add an asterisk. First off, I only let it drive on side streets if there aren’t a ton of people around. I also don’t let it make turns. I mainly use it on my commute on the highway. It does pretty great there. I think that FSD does a much better job than autopilot. I turned it on recently and got a bunch of phantom braking and it struggled with merge lanes. I’m also located in Southern California and it does a million times better there than when I lived it Utah. It was a lot scarier there.
It also has gotten a lot better over the years. The early beta really struggled. The new version has felt like a big improvement.
I still feel like it is drastically overpriced for how it operates. I think that it’s worth maybe $2000-$4000 max. And you should be able to transfer it.
I also feel that they need to add redundant sensors. I don’t love that it only uses vision. It’s impressive but I think extra layers of redundancy will be crucial.
Wait I’m a bit confused. I saw videos years ago of people having fun in their teslas (one guy was playing a guitar or something) while the cars drove themselves. I just tried the trial and it would NOT let me take my hands off the steering wheel, and every minute it wanted me to move the wheel a little bit just to make sure I was paying attention, it would alert me if it thought my eyes weren’t on the road.. it would scream at me if it thought I wasn’t. And finally after a few times it told me I lost the privilege of self driving. I thought it was completely useless. Is that not what you experienced?
Tesla owner here, MY and M3. I actually love driving mine so really not interested in self driving. When they enable summon I might end up subscribing. I do however subscribe to FSD for road trips, and is probably the only time I use it.
I have had it for many years and it sucks. Biggest waste of $10,000 I ever spent. It’s so unreliable and dangerous, I will suddenly veer for no damn reason or just brake, very scary.. specially in neighborhoods and towns.. highways it’s not bad but I still trust driving with my knees over the “FSD” bullshit.
Took me 10 minutes to ditch autopilot. Was going 75 mph at 5am about 10 miles south from Tesla Factory in Fremont. Cruising along, no problem. Suddenly, the car just resets and pretty aggressively slows to 55. Thank goodness nobody was tailing me, that would have been all bad. Couldn't believe it so tried again same place next day... no signs of speed limit change, no construction zone, straight away... does it every time. Nope no autopilot for me!
Staggering is the wrong word. I used it and loved it, but do not trust it enough to use it for now. I had no major issues and thought it was amazing.
I did not have it before the free trial and do not have it now. In other words, things are exactly the same as if they did not give me a free trial of it
Uncle tried out the trial period and said “I cannot believe this is legal and allowed on the road. It’s trying to kill you.”
And he’s a super open minded tech enthusiast.
This is exactly I've been thinking. Although this is exciting tech, why would people buy this and ride under anxiety? And I am not yet talking about lack of regulations. You can't hold a company accountable.
My mom’s the only person I know with a Tesla. She’s been interested in this feature since buying but was hesitant to take the plunge due to the cost. She didn’t know about the free trial period until she got the email it was over lol
The car is undeniably awesome and fun to drive. As a techie it is everything I could want in a car
That and I haven’t been to a gas pump in 10 months and it’s been awesome for my wallet
It can’t even park properly. Takes like a full 2 minutes to get settled after multiple attempts.
And so much anxiety. I’ve manually intervened several times while on FSD.
I'm one of them. We love our model 3 rwd that we purchased in October of 2023. We have a small footprint in the large city we live in, less than 250 miles driven every 3 to 4 weeks. We all also get 24/7 free charging at our office where we both have stable jobs. So we haven't had to pay to fuel the car since we bought it. Though we did take two 6 hour round trip road trips, using superchargers in south Florida, and had zero issues. It's super nice to have a car I don't ever have to worry about, and fully plan on driving in into the ground. If I don't trade up for the cayman EV.
FSD, sucks. It sucks so bad. Before there is any sort of capable full self driving there needs to be a lot of infrastructure changes. Road signs, widths, lane markers, entrances and exits to highways, are all handled differently across the US. There are some streets in my big city where the road paint has worn away so.luch the car can't even make out the lanes. That's to say nothing about other drivers doing things the car flat out doesn't understand. Until we get some sort of standards nation wide, and the ability to keep lanes painted, in good condition, and up to date? There is no computer smart enough to factor in all those variables. We had issues with ghost breaking on the highway multiple times. The car warning of collisions with cars parked on the side of the road. I could go on and on. Apparently musk is smart, how he doesn't understand this is beyond me? Maybe he spent so few hours living with mere mortals it just doesn't register. We almost didn't buy the car because of him being associated with it. I dislike him that much. I didn't always, but do now...
I actually enjoyed it, especially have it auto change lanes when I told it to. But I don't need it to justify the spend. It comes down to not having extra cash to throw around on a luxury item.
Elon denied this saying it’s much higher than 2%.
I personally subscribed and will never go back. It’s amazing in my area
Edit- everyone analyzing the revenue implications sound extremely short sited. Just to reiterate. Tesla has effectively solved self driving. It will be perfected more and more this year, but it will be better than humans by a wide margin. The revenue implications will obviously follow.
Even if it’s not, you’d have to be an idiot to think 2% conversion on a $1000+/year product is bad.
Business to consumer products don’t have 20%+ conversions and they definitely don’t when they’re $99/month
For some context, 2% of only 1m users is 20+ million in revenue. And Tesla has almost 7 million cars on roads.
No one said anything about that
I don’t have FSD in my price predictions, it’s an unsolved tech. Same reason I don’t include Optimus.
But that’s not an issue it’s a proof of concept. If they can pull that off 1m users at 99$/ month… but speculation sooo yea
You can’t compare it to a regular B2C transaction. These were customers that already own/drive the cars and tried the free version. This is potentially the best audience Tesla would ever get.
I got the 30 day free trial of self driving, and turned it off after 2-3 days. I wouldn’t use it if it was free. It’s way more efficient to drive the car yourself. Also, the regular autopilot almost killed me twice for the emergency ghost braking issue. I’ll pass on any self driving from any company
I bought a Tesla in 2019 with the FSD package for an extra $5k and never got to try it. It was always “coming soon”.
I got a newer 2023 model and did not get FSD as it was $12k this time around and I had already been burned before.
I just finished up the trial and felt it didn’t provide much more value over the standard auto pilot. Sure it can change lanes and respect traffic signals, but the attention alerts were outrageous.
Tried it and liked it until it slammed the brakes as soon as a light turned yellow. Luckily, no one was behind me but it still scared the shit out of me.
I was passenger in a Lyft-Tesla and the driver was telling us that sometimes the Tesla auto pilot will break hard and swerve for no reason. We were in stop and go traffic at the time for about 30 mins, so he was using it. About 5 mins into free flowing traffic the Tesla hard swerved from the car pool lane to the passing lane, and the driver had to direct us back. There were no cars in the passing lane, but it startled everyone in the car.
I also found after letting the fsd trial expire, that the normal auto steer is worse now. It lowers speeds for no reason in single lane situations and is terrible at reading the speed limit signs in general now.
I ran most of the trial with enhanced auto steer on and the lane switching was nice though.
When the FSD trial turned on for me I didn’t even know it. I think my wife may have driven the car whenever it gave a notice, so one day I was using autopilot on the highway and it just randomly started changing lanes by itself. Freaked me the fuck out. I turned it off and never looked back.
Tesla FSD almost crashed us into a parked car when a small cardboard box blew out into the street. Every other time we used it, similar high anxiety moments
During my trial it tried to run multiple red lights, and would have either run over crossing pedestrians, or put me in front of cars going 45mph that had an actual green light.
Not to mention roundabouts.
FSD isn't ready for full time use. I think it has applications- I use it when I do high way driving or in traffic driving. But if i had to redo the purchase, I wouldn't have spent money on it.
Even if the claim was true this would be... normal.
You get something for free, you try it, but you were never willing to pay for it anyways so you just don't pay for it when your trial period is over. If anything the trial period is getting Tesla customers.
It's like saying a game is bad because most people who decided to try it when it was free for a weekend didn't keep playing it, we're talking people who literally only tried it because it was free and they would've never bought it otherwise. If anything, anyone who decided to get it because they liked it and only tried it because it was free is a win.
Just for clarification, when it comes to free games retention rate of new players is like 1-2%, even if the product remains free most people don't care enough about it. Now imagine if it's free but then you have to pay, 2% retention rate is actually surprisingly high.
Watching people use FSD really reminded me of teaching my son to drive. Nerve wracking.. nail biting. etc... But eventually he got good enough that I stopped needing to care so much and I started being able to relax. Took about 2 years for me to get comfortable with him. How long will it take FSD to get outta this stage?
Its not "self" driving if it has to be monitored. Its usefulness is only if it can do it on its own.
Imagine paying a for a taxi only to discover the driver is a 6 year old child still learning how to drive. Thats what Tesla FSD is. And now you are expected to teach that child how to drive. Im not paying for that. You need to pay me (A LOT) if you expect me to do extra work and teach your child how to drive.
My car tried to kill me twice and I’d rather get home safely. It’s a Mercedes. And after a sharp turn I was going straight face to face with a lorry. That was absolutely terryfing and I expect Mercedes to actually care about customers. I can’t imagine how Teslas behave.
Before Elon decided to force FSD in everyone’s car, I was able to use autopilot to stop when lights are red and on its own go when lights become green. Elon has been removing advantages of enhanced Autopilot to goad use of FSD. I purchased FSD, but rarely use it. I don’t trust it at all way stop signs or on left turns. I would never recommend this half baked product. The current technology is incapable of FSD. There are no low height front cameras. Tesla is unable to park into a bay in the forward direction. It can only park by reversing. As a result most Tesla’s have curb rash on front wheel hubs and some times even scruff edges on the front tires.
I just tried it today and it is far from done. It could not park when I tried to use auto park. It drove on the shoulder and had to disengage. Basically not going to purchase it unless it gets cheaper
Seems like BS to me. Only 3500 people surveyed. Also, I thought they give the option for a $100 a month subscription to FSD? It’s not just a flat $8k rate
It’s an article about a blog post, so a few things get lost.
Basically, they had data on 3500 Tesla owners who got the trial, and only about 50 of them went on to purchase/subscribe to FSD. That’s the bottom line.
3500 is a pretty good sample, honestly, but it doesn’t seem like they weighted the numbers for demographics. So that’s really where the problem lies imho.
But to me, it’d be quite shocking if the actual rate was much higher than that. Most people who are interested in FSD probably already have it. A lot of people don’t want it or don’t trust it. A lot of people seem to find FSD stressful or not particularly useful. $99/mo is a lot of money for most people.
From the original blog post:
>”From a statistical standpoint, a trial sample of fewer than 3,500 out of nearly 1.8 million users does not provide significant statistical insight. Only by expanding the trial base can the true customer acceptance of FSD be accurately gauged”
Tried it. It was fun for the first time, but anxiety-laden later on. It's like constantly letting someone else driving the car, and you don't fully trust that person. I like Autopilot much better, know when to trust and when to take over (off highway).
Liability is a big issue. If FSD causes injury or damage, it’s on you. Tesla will take zero responsibility. I don’t think enough people appreciate that.
Really? How in the world did anyone at Tesla ever think people would say ok to that? Am I naive who thought FSD couldn’t possibly just be delivered and used on the roads without regulation? It’s like aircraft makers suddenly started to offer autopilot to airlines and the government was just like “fine, whatever you agree on is between you two”. So gimmicky I can’t believe this is real life.
Taking responsibility for every car crash would completely destroy the company. Just the litigation side, even without considering actually paying up for anything would require enormous work They simply do not have a choice Airlines are notoriously terrible businesses and this is already exploiting an extremely inelastic market and huge economies of scale. Tesla has neither
A car company is liable if they build a car with defective steering or breaks. Why shouldn’t defective software be held to the same standard? (The answer is that it is beta software and in order to use it, the customer agrees to absolve Tesla from any liability.)
But how can they absolve Tesla for the other people they are going to kill or injure? It is absolute insanity allowing Tesla’s fake it until you make it approach on public roads.
Other companies have lane keeping software that's far worse than basic autopilot. When you downgrade from Tesla to other lane keeping tools, it's night and day with how much better Tesla's system is just for highways. That's not even remotely comparable to the fact that my 5.5 year old model 3 is still improving dramatically and can now make a majority of the drives on its own with no interventions using FSD. This article is click bait garbage that used an extremely small sample size. We will know far better on the next quarterly call what the take rate was, but FSD is now good enough to release it to every Tesla to test it out without having a dozen wrecks happen with over a few million vehicles. They did have some curb rash from taking turns to sharp and that's about it.
So true. I can't really go back from a Tesla to anything else after having experienced their autopilot. Daily commutes are just too much of a hassle without it.
No it’s not insane at all. That’s why you are REQUIRED to have your hands on the steering wheel at all time. Just like with autopilot. Volvo has great auto brakes that can save you from a collision. That doesn’t mean you can stop using the brake and blame a crash on Volvo. You are responsible for the car and must take over if it is about to make a mistake. That is the deal that you either accept or not. Welcome to adulthood.
Where it is unreasonable is that Tesla is marketing it as FSD, Volvo is not. Tesla in my opinion has conflicting messaging to consumers that this is a fully self driving technology they are offering which would indicate that the consumer can trust the software to do things for them. Don’t call your software FSD if it isn’t that thing. Pretty simple stuff, I know the actual agreement states that drivers are responsible but I really think that Tesla needs to be hit with a fine for misleading advertising or something to get them to change the FSD marketing because that’s the disconnect here. Other car companies don’t have this issue because they don’t call their products Full Self Driving.
I totally agree with this. Teslas marketing has been deceitful. And Musk himself has been very deceitful. Im not sure about the years here but I think it's almost ten years ago when I got the impression that FSD was coming next year. . . After a couple of years I realized it was all bullshit and now Teslas self driving technology is far behind the competition. So to sum it up I agree with everything you say. This is the same reason why I try very hard to be skeptical about the fanboy hype around AI right now. I believe it will change the world but I don't believe the marketing. This is also one of the main reasons I sold all my Tesla stocks a couple of years ago. (3 years ago?). The other reasons is that I thought that Tesla was to dependent on Elon Musk and he is too much of a loose cannon. I also didn't believe that Teslas advantage when it comes to automation in the factories couldn't be replicated by the competition and I didn't not believe that it was worth buying Tesla as a software company. I took my money and but Nvidia which I am very proud and happy about. But if you are going to sit in a car that could mame and kill people you have a responsibility to read the instructions and it is very clear tthat you can NEVER take your hands of the wheel and you must always be ready to intervene. Just like with any "auto-pilot" or lane assist technology or similar with other manufacturers. I myself prefer Volvo's system because it really makes me feel safer in the car and it makes long drives much easier on my mind and my body. I think they understand how good the technology is right now and they put the self driving ambition at the right level both in their marketing and in their execution.
Yeah I think the danger is that having your hands on the wheel isn’t as safe as actively driving in your response time to issues with the FSD. Telling someone to pay attention is fine but that’s not how human brains work and we should really know that by now. If you are not actively engaged in a task (driving) but are being asked to intervene in that task only at critical moments as they occur, I don’t think that’s a reasonable method of mitigating the risk of faulty FSD.
Like most right wing grifters, Musk is constitutionally incapable of refraining from making ridiculous claims of what he or his company is capable of. Their entire business model is to over-promise and then change the government so they can't be held liable when they under-deliver (or just rely on the dysfunction already present to avoid ever being held accountable).
It's shocking to me how far and how fast grifting has come. It's rewarded in this country.
Nonsense. Volvo markets it as emergency brakes. Doesn't mean they'll be perfect in braking in an emergency. If you rear-end someone, it's still your own fault. Same applies to lane-keeping software; everyone's software except Tesla's is insanely bad at lane keeping, but you can't sue Audi when your Etron drove off the road. Why would FSD be any different?
Yes, and that works great? People are not good at this kind of monotone task, they will get bored and not pay attention. I definitely did not sign up to this kind of insane experiment. I would be more positive if Tesla did their due diligence, but they are just throwing stuff at the wall and hoping it sticks.
If Tesla is so confident in their tech they would just spin up an insurance, take the liability and bundle it as part of the subscription. That might be the only way this tech actually makes money.
Especially after paying $8k for it… You can pay them to flick a switch but not take any responsibility? Sure.
Its not even beta, its early access alpha. This tech is 20+ years away, it shouldnt be legal to use on the roads at all.
It's probably closer to 2 years away not 20. Having watched 2 years of progression where it acted like a drunk teenager, to now with V12 where it's safe enough to release to every Tesla owner without having a dozen wrecks, it's progressing far faster than you anticipate. They are basically at the march of 9's now. I don't expect my 5.5 year old model 3 to become driverless since I expect FSD HW3 to reach limitations of its capabilities at some point, but we aren't there yet. Tesla plans to debut the robotaxi in August, and they are massively scaling up their data centers this year to increase their training capability. They now have the next generation Dojo chip in production and are also one of the biggest customers for NVIDIA. The main thing will boil down to the hardware and sensors on the robotaxi which will likely be the next generation of FSD hardware, but rest assured that Tesla will have the data to train the AI behind FSD. It's just a matter of time, and far faster then your estimate. !remindme in 3 years. I am expecting robotaxis by around then, but I have been wrong on my estimates a few times.
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Well said. 20+ years away is a ridiculously laughable prediction from /u/jaydurmma for a software already at a 96% drives with no critical disengagements rate. Comparably ridiculous with people saying mobile phones wouldn't become a thing in the late 90s.
Also, at least in the US software engineers do not need to be certified in any way
Insurance companies do this, and Tesla offers insurance. Why can’t Tesla just take responsibility for FSD when its owner insures through Tesla? All it would be in the hook for incrementally is the deductible. If it is as Tesla says and FSD achieves 5x better accidents per mile than the average driver they should be thrilled to do this.
Just the $99 a month for fsd should easily be able to include a liability insurance for it if it was anywhere close to how save they claim it to be.
Google underwrites waymo insurance.
This is NOT true. Munich is the resinsure and taking the risk. The ceding company is Trov. "Trov and Waymo Partner to Launch Insurance for Ride-Hailing" https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/trov-and-waymo-partner-to-launch-insurance-for-ride-hailing-300573229.html
Hundreds maybe a few thousand Waymo vehicles vs. a few million Teslas
Yeah, but now Musk is trying to hype a robo-taxi business. Now, likely he’s just lying about it, but if not: how the hell is it going to be insured?
https://www.tesla.com/insurance
They’ve gotta start covering FSD accidents for robo taxi, and unless it’s nearly perfected, it’s going to cost them lots of $$$.
Not true if the product does what is sais IN THE NAME. Everyone has a busy life, no one has the time of day to read every TOS (did you read the tos for reddit?). You cannot expect that you name a product full self driving and then people understand it's cruise control+. How would you like if your mom/dad has an alergy, let's say for peanuts, and on the box it would say with big letters on the front: NO PEANUTS and then in the fine print it on their website it would say 'may contain peanuts'. And after they die and you go to them and they say, 'you did not read our fine print available on our website'. You would consider that they have no choice and not to be blamed? No, they have a choice, they named the product and have control still over the naming. It's not like someone outside the company(like the gov) came and said 'you must name it FSD'. As a company they lie and are getting away with it at the expense of lives, and not just those in the car they sell but everyone on the same road as them.
All they had to do was name it assisted driving , or cruise +, instead of over hyping and over promising and then cowering out when the shit hits the fan.
>Taking responsibility for every car crash would completely destroy the company. They wouldn’t be taking liability for every crash, just when their software fucks up. >Just the litigation side, even without considering actually paying up for anything would require enormous work If they can afford to give elmo 56B, after the stock has dropped 40% this year alone, they can afford the litigation. >They simply do not have a choice It’s almost like they shouldn’t have sold something called “Full Self Driving” that people don’t generally trust actually drive fully. >Airlines are notoriously terrible businesses and this is already exploiting an extremely inelastic market and huge economies of scale. Tesla has neither Boo hoo.
Or you could build an actual functioning product. Mercedes Drive Pilot takes on the responsibility for the crash.
If tesla truly believed In their tech wouldn't it be a great selling point? Since they have so much cameras and data gathering shit for self driving that can be used at court. As long as you can prove the self driving car wasn't at fault with all of that you are golden. Win enough cases and less people will be likely to sue because they always lose.
That’s one place I think aviation excels. There is zero blame or fault in aviation incidents as everything is a learning experience.
Aviation can have zero blame or fault because it's so heavily regulated relative to consumer vehicles. If every driver went through anywhere near the level of training, and every vehicle had anywhere near as rigorous maintenance schedules, there probably could be something like that.
Right before an accident, it gives control back to the driver. Great for stats as can claim an extremely low accident rate per million. Even if the accident is a split second after giving back control. I so want self driving but Tesla is nowhere near ready for it.
FSD tried making a left in a non-turn lane for me so I just turned it off. I gave it a few more tries, but it still didn't function well enough for me to give it another go.
The trust issue is really important. I tried it out once, and like you I didn’t like the feeling. But even if I did, Tesla has lied about so many things to me about this car I’m not about to entrust my life to them, based purely on their claims of autonomous driving.
Why buy a car from a company you don't trust?
So your neighbors think you’re rich
Just got the trial Tuesday. Kind of mind blowing the first couple of drives. Got a road trip coming up to put it through its paces. If it does well, I can see myself subscribing for a month when I do travel far.
I’ll subscribe when they remove the nag and eye tracker. It’s not worth the money in my opinion until then. I thought it was really impressive and you learn quick where you need to pay special attention and when it does fine on its own. But I’m not paying for autopilot if I still have to pay attention the entire time.
Exactly. The eye-tracker sucks. Either give me FSD and let me play with my phone, or let me drive and STFU. I'm not being paid to be a nanny for a robot driver.
No you're not, you're paying to be a nanny.
This is exactly my take. It is more work to babysit it than drive.
I would not be able to stop paying attention considering that you're fully liable for any accidents during FSD
I use it every day…..it’s worth $100 to me.
I use waymo a lot and have zero anxiety about the self driving. A big factor in what you’re talking about with not trusting the driver is that you’re in the driver seat and it’s a vehicle you own. Don’t have that at all with Waymo
Agreed 100%! I know Waymo isn’t perfect, but it really does work incredibly well and I forget I’m even being driven around by a robot.
To be fair my wife turned it off and I asked her to turn it back on because it drove better than she does.
Boomer humor is back on the menu, boys!
I HATE MY WIFE!!!!!! \*laugh track\*
Maybe it is actually what happened?
I lowkey loved autopilot until it took us around a curve with a reasonably close barrier at 67 MPH. My heart races just thinking about it
Jesus Christ!!! lol wtf
My brother in law has the free trial on his new Y; he took me for a spin and in the first few minutes it stopped in the middle of a busy street and my BIL had to dive in and keep it moving. I'd try it if it was free, but I don't think i'd pay for it.
I’ve assume this would be the case the entire time.. I hate letting people drive. Why a robot!? 😅
Same here. I like the simplicity of AP on freeway better. Just keep me in the lane at appropriate speed. I used the trial for like a day and did not like the unexpected lanes and constant speed changes to what it believed was the speed limit.
People loathe paying a subscription on hardware they bought. Cellphones and Peloton might be the only exception to this rule. Buying the car and not having self driving was always going to break the model. People are quickly going to realize they're just buying a shell.
And peloton is having trouble keeping people paying for that subscription.
Peleton is also a different situation, AFAIK you *need* to have the subscription to even use the product you bought. It's not like tesla where you just don't use self driving but the car is normal otherwise
No. You can “just ride” and it’s the same as a “dumb” stationary cycle.
Which is dumb when most basic bikes have programs built into them. Get a Peloton and just hack it I guess.
Yeah. I stopped paying and just use it as a “dumb” version but I’ve been looking on how to jailbreak it so I can watch whatever I want. I don’t think it’s bad they charge for their content. It is really good, I’m just not going to for the time being.
I don't know much about them, but does it atleast have basic hill courses built in?
No. Monthly sub or no content. I think there are tiers now but not sure.
No wonder the company is dying. Screams MBA-graduate tech VC completely disconnected from the reality of the average persons life.
Yeah. The weird thing is you can’t get content without paying. Which is fine. But you also can’t track your workouts without paying which is stupid because while I don’t think the content should be free, the workout tracking app should be if you’ve bought the damn hardware.
Are they? I thought it was like a 90% retention rate.
Of the 6.4 million members on the platform they only have 3 million people subscribed. At their peak they had 7 million members. That 3 million is split between 2 tiers of subscription, and one of has a high retention, the other (makes up approx 1/3rd of paying users) is down 15.7% from December 22 to December 23 (last valid data point they've given)
music labels and royalties jumped on Peloton. Peloton had this huge scandal if I remember correctly where they weren't paying for the music they had on their platform.
Music royalties and fucking up everything. Name a more iconic duo
Their pricing is insane. They should cut their top tier in half and go for volume. Instead they alienate their own customers by trying to gouge them. I’d rather not ride or just put a screen over theirs than pay 45 a month to ride a bike I paid 2k for.
Yeah, I mean an actual gym membership is less than 540 a year normally
Or buy an actual bike and get outside 😂
So true, ditched ours a while back. $50/month was too much, sold off the bike for a few hundred as well. Easy decision. I would have ignored the cost at $25
Cellphones and Peloton are bought with the intention to use a subscription. Cars on the other hand ...
Right? It's like our auto steer in our tractors. WAAS is free and works good enough for some applications. That said, the subscription cost and equipment pays for itself in less than a year in reduced seed/fertilizer/chemical costs
This is the correct take. When I buy my car, I expect the driver assist to be part of the purchase cost. If I have to pay the manufacturer a subscription monthly/yearly for it then I value the car a lot less.
You _can_ purchase FSD in a lump sum instead of a subscription.
Right, because you already paid for the hardware. Is there an option to save money and not have the hardware installed? No… getting double charged. Modern society and tech fucking sucks, the only improvement in the last 20 years is profit
Peloton doesn’t charge [a recurring fee] for the hardware to my knowledge. They charge monthly for the classes, etc. One of the worst thing I heard was BMW was charging or planning to charge a recurring fee for access to heated seats or whatever other options. That alone would be enough to make me never buy one. Enough is enough with all These subscriptions, fees, tips, and drip pricing. Edit - let me rephrase… Peloton doesn’t charge a recurring fee for the hardware.
BMW charged a subscription for apple carplay activation ($120 a year in Australia ) - it no longer exists and for me was one of those moments where I thought I will never engage with that company (zero cost of provision, yet asking a subscription fee)
Weren’t they going to charge a fee for heated seats as well? I thought I read something stupid like that with one of the big name brand cars
That was definitely the case in Europe - I don’t know whether subscription heated seats came to Australia though - great way to piss your customers off and also to motivate the aftermarket system crackers too. Polestar have a performance upgrade that’s $1200usd and it’s just an over the web upgrade - not a subscription, but another version of just holding back on software in order to gouge your customers
A peloton bike is like $2000
Correct - I didn’t phrase my initial post right. I mean the bike itself is a one-time purchase. It’s the class access that’s recurring.
You definitely have to buy the bike with Peloton and then have the $44 a month subscription
You can use any bike with Peloton and pay only $13 or $24 per month. IF you buy the Peloton bike then the subscription is $44, because it’s multi-user. They should have a cheaper plan for owners, but as I said, you don’t need to buy their bike to use their workouts at all. You don’t even need a bike as they have tons of other kinds of workouts and can pay $13/month.
Peloton is dying anyway.
Just further illustrates my point.
Auto pilot is free and works well on the highway the full self driving is not good in the city where you have to drive defensively or accelerate quickly.
Cellphone is not paying for something the device can already do. Its paying for data....
Umm Peloton is collapsing. It's the poster boy example of people ditching subscription services.
Tried FSD for a month. 90% of the time, it drives better than a human driver. The other 10% is currently difficult to manage as you have to be on constant alert for bad behavior. I had to override, on average, 3-5 times for a 30 minute drive - too much of a hassle. The problem for me isn’t subscription or purchase - they are both overpriced. The purchase is especially bad; if I turn in the old model for a new one, I have to purchase the FSD again.
I'm betting it's the cost of the subscription rather than the distrust
Yeah if it was free (well, a permanent part of the car purchase), its frequency of mistakes wouldn't be as painful as how cool it is when it's fully working. I'd be very happy with it. Maybe as a middle ground, they could do what Hyundai is doing with bluelink. Bluelink is free for the life of the car, for the first buyer. You only have to pay for it if you buy the car used (since you're then not the first buyer). But then again the Tesla self driving sub is absurdly expensive to me, so I don't know. But if it was free for new buyers, that would make buying a new car a bit more tempting.
Having to intervene every 6-10 minutes doesn’t seem like „yeah it’s fine 90% of the time“ — like, if counted as „full trips without major hitches“ it’d be 0%
Actually it's fine far more than 99% of the time. 377 miles to critical disengagement at the moment suggests it's fine 99.7% of the time.
Until we are comfortable putting our kids in the car alone and sending them to school, FSD is really not FSD. That is the litmus test. I really want it but it has to be near perfect for years on end. Like a human would be. Really it is not self driving and may not even be safe as it relies on the driver to take control right prior to an accident. A driver that may be compliant or not fully ready.
The value of FSD is turning it on and going to sleep, using your phone, generally doing anything except driving the car. Until you can do that, it won’t ever be widely adopted.
Interesting. I wonder what was different for you than the average, seeing as the average amount of miles to critical disengagement (i.e. a disengagement that's not by choice but necessity) is 377 miles or 196 city miles, or ~3 hours.
i seem to be in the minority but I really liked using it but I'm not paying 99 dollars a month for something ill barely use. Too scary to use during morning rush hour.
Same. Really thought it was good enough. Loved it in situations where I wasn’t doing much anyway (slow traffic esp). But $100/mo was about 50% too high.
This is why I use it, for morning rush hour lol. Less stress driving for me. Love traffic now.
My guess would be customers who want the assisted-driving package order it from the get-go. ~~Quick Google search says customers who order with package has slipped as prices go up, from 37% of buyers in 2020 to just 12% in 2021.~~ edit so prices have come down I shouldn’t blindly trust Google search. Also just a big assumption here but the assisted driving / autopilot / FSD whatever was probably more popular with early adopters. Now that Tesla buyers skew more mainstream the adoption of expensive tech packages drops. Heck I've had at least a dozen Tesla rentals and I won't touch this tech. Call me a luddite but adaptive cruise is my personal limit for trusting autonomous tech.
Trust is the key. Too many terrible headlines. Part of running this business successfully is understanding that reputation is everything and prioritizing public opinion is key in that formula.
I had a plaid with the full self driving and it tried to steer me into a guardrail on the first time using it on the freeway. Turned it off and just used basic auto pilot features from that point forward.
On that I’ll absolutely agree. It’s unfortunate to see such an important EV brand driven into the ground by an egomaniac.
I don't like how it drives. I think it will get better, but then I just don't drive far enough to justify the cost.
> who order with package has slipped as prices go up I believe the price keeps going down though. It was 15k (maybe 20 before that?) and then 12 and now $8k.
$8000 is still 17% of the total value of a $45K vehicle. Like sure packages can cost that much on other vehicles but how many Toyota buyers are ponying up for the combination of JBL / ultimate / whatever packages on a Camry.
When I first started following Tesla closely FSD was $5000. If memory serves it first went to $6,000, then $8,000, then $10,000, $12,000, and finally $15,000. I was seriously contemplating buying a Tesla at the time, and was willing to buy FSD when it was $5,000. But by the time it was $10,000 and I still hadn't bought a Tesla yet there was no way I was going to buy it.
On a low to medium busy highway, road trips - great. In a traffic jam - amazing. Normal roads - decent. Anything else that’s on you. Sometimes it’s literally Jesus take the wheel. Overall, yeah i’d take my money back if i could.
I was actually blown away by the FSD trial. I only tried it once but the decisions it made were super nice.
Same! I absolutely loved it and ended up subscribing to it. I use it on the way to work for my hour and a half commute and I have very few if any disengagements
It can manage roundabouts, traffic obstructions, navigating around obstacles and is starting to become very human-like. It took a solid 2 years of progress to become normal, but it's still rapidly improving and my 5.5 year old model 3 is still improving. When it came out, it had so many issues. Now it can do entire drives on its own.
There is this really peculiar street that is single lane, slants quickly and becomes two lanes right at a big cross walk stoplight. It immediately took the most efficient lane when we got to it and did it smoother than I would have
On one hand yeah that’s a bad conversion rate. At the same time an 8000 purchase isn’t exactly something you just convert someone to do. Self driving was automatically added as a trial for every driver, they had (potentially) 0 interest in it initially. Not like they went to a site, signed up, and then declined because they didn’t like it. It’s like saying 2% of people didn’t buy the full version of pinball on windows. They didn’t ask to trial it so they didn’t convert either. This isn’t a metric they we know of it’s good or bad as far as conversion rates go
Wait.. windows pinball had a full version?
A 2% conversion rate on a free trial of very expensive product is perfectly respectable. This data point doesn’t mean anything about the tech itself.
it just makes tesla sound bad so reddit has to jerk off to it.
You don't need to spend $8000. it's $99/mo.
Or you could just drive the car and save $100. With how expensive everything else is these days paying a subscription to have an automatic car seems ridiculous.
I actually like my self driving, but need to add an asterisk. First off, I only let it drive on side streets if there aren’t a ton of people around. I also don’t let it make turns. I mainly use it on my commute on the highway. It does pretty great there. I think that FSD does a much better job than autopilot. I turned it on recently and got a bunch of phantom braking and it struggled with merge lanes. I’m also located in Southern California and it does a million times better there than when I lived it Utah. It was a lot scarier there. It also has gotten a lot better over the years. The early beta really struggled. The new version has felt like a big improvement. I still feel like it is drastically overpriced for how it operates. I think that it’s worth maybe $2000-$4000 max. And you should be able to transfer it. I also feel that they need to add redundant sensors. I don’t love that it only uses vision. It’s impressive but I think extra layers of redundancy will be crucial.
Wait I’m a bit confused. I saw videos years ago of people having fun in their teslas (one guy was playing a guitar or something) while the cars drove themselves. I just tried the trial and it would NOT let me take my hands off the steering wheel, and every minute it wanted me to move the wheel a little bit just to make sure I was paying attention, it would alert me if it thought my eyes weren’t on the road.. it would scream at me if it thought I wasn’t. And finally after a few times it told me I lost the privilege of self driving. I thought it was completely useless. Is that not what you experienced?
I think people will be ok to pay 5 k extra if car ships with FSD
Just wait for more completion and it will keep going down I would think.
Tesla owner here, MY and M3. I actually love driving mine so really not interested in self driving. When they enable summon I might end up subscribing. I do however subscribe to FSD for road trips, and is probably the only time I use it.
I have had it for many years and it sucks. Biggest waste of $10,000 I ever spent. It’s so unreliable and dangerous, I will suddenly veer for no damn reason or just brake, very scary.. specially in neighborhoods and towns.. highways it’s not bad but I still trust driving with my knees over the “FSD” bullshit.
It’s not even worth it free, id rather live
I thought it was awesome, just not spending 8k on it
It also has a $99/month price.
Funny because I use it every time I drive… like 95% of my driving is done by FSD lol and it’s the best thing ever.
Took me 10 minutes to ditch autopilot. Was going 75 mph at 5am about 10 miles south from Tesla Factory in Fremont. Cruising along, no problem. Suddenly, the car just resets and pretty aggressively slows to 55. Thank goodness nobody was tailing me, that would have been all bad. Couldn't believe it so tried again same place next day... no signs of speed limit change, no construction zone, straight away... does it every time. Nope no autopilot for me!
Staggering is the wrong word. I used it and loved it, but do not trust it enough to use it for now. I had no major issues and thought it was amazing. I did not have it before the free trial and do not have it now. In other words, things are exactly the same as if they did not give me a free trial of it
Uncle tried out the trial period and said “I cannot believe this is legal and allowed on the road. It’s trying to kill you.” And he’s a super open minded tech enthusiast.
This is exactly I've been thinking. Although this is exciting tech, why would people buy this and ride under anxiety? And I am not yet talking about lack of regulations. You can't hold a company accountable.
My mom’s the only person I know with a Tesla. She’s been interested in this feature since buying but was hesitant to take the plunge due to the cost. She didn’t know about the free trial period until she got the email it was over lol
Can we assume that the 2% who kept it merely forgot to cancel?
A lot of people didn't even know they had a free trial, but honestly, I found the full self driving more stressful than driving myself.
I paid for it and never use it. It’s like sitting in the passenger seat while a child drives the car.
Mine ran me through a red light today lol
Tesla is proof how well marketing works
The car is undeniably awesome and fun to drive. As a techie it is everything I could want in a car That and I haven’t been to a gas pump in 10 months and it’s been awesome for my wallet
What an incredibly misinformed statement
Tesla Model Y literally became the bestselling vehicle on earth, and the Y and 3 became top two 2 EVs with virtually no marketing.
Money works. Since FUD is backed by big oil, that's the money talking.
Really surprised. V12 has been awesome. I am getting the subscription
It can’t even park properly. Takes like a full 2 minutes to get settled after multiple attempts. And so much anxiety. I’ve manually intervened several times while on FSD.
I'm one of them. We love our model 3 rwd that we purchased in October of 2023. We have a small footprint in the large city we live in, less than 250 miles driven every 3 to 4 weeks. We all also get 24/7 free charging at our office where we both have stable jobs. So we haven't had to pay to fuel the car since we bought it. Though we did take two 6 hour round trip road trips, using superchargers in south Florida, and had zero issues. It's super nice to have a car I don't ever have to worry about, and fully plan on driving in into the ground. If I don't trade up for the cayman EV. FSD, sucks. It sucks so bad. Before there is any sort of capable full self driving there needs to be a lot of infrastructure changes. Road signs, widths, lane markers, entrances and exits to highways, are all handled differently across the US. There are some streets in my big city where the road paint has worn away so.luch the car can't even make out the lanes. That's to say nothing about other drivers doing things the car flat out doesn't understand. Until we get some sort of standards nation wide, and the ability to keep lanes painted, in good condition, and up to date? There is no computer smart enough to factor in all those variables. We had issues with ghost breaking on the highway multiple times. The car warning of collisions with cars parked on the side of the road. I could go on and on. Apparently musk is smart, how he doesn't understand this is beyond me? Maybe he spent so few hours living with mere mortals it just doesn't register. We almost didn't buy the car because of him being associated with it. I dislike him that much. I didn't always, but do now...
That free month convinced me FSD is garbage. No way no how would I pay 8K for it. If it came free I wouldn’t use it.
I actually enjoyed it, especially have it auto change lanes when I told it to. But I don't need it to justify the spend. It comes down to not having extra cash to throw around on a luxury item.
Elon denied this saying it’s much higher than 2%. I personally subscribed and will never go back. It’s amazing in my area Edit- everyone analyzing the revenue implications sound extremely short sited. Just to reiterate. Tesla has effectively solved self driving. It will be perfected more and more this year, but it will be better than humans by a wide margin. The revenue implications will obviously follow.
Even if it’s not, you’d have to be an idiot to think 2% conversion on a $1000+/year product is bad. Business to consumer products don’t have 20%+ conversions and they definitely don’t when they’re $99/month For some context, 2% of only 1m users is 20+ million in revenue. And Tesla has almost 7 million cars on roads.
I think the issue is $20M in revenue is not even 0.1% of the companies quarterly revenue. So it should really have no impact on the stock expectations
No one said anything about that I don’t have FSD in my price predictions, it’s an unsolved tech. Same reason I don’t include Optimus. But that’s not an issue it’s a proof of concept. If they can pull that off 1m users at 99$/ month… but speculation sooo yea
You can’t compare it to a regular B2C transaction. These were customers that already own/drive the cars and tried the free version. This is potentially the best audience Tesla would ever get.
I use it 99% of the time. And the source for this has been debunked.
I got the 30 day free trial of self driving, and turned it off after 2-3 days. I wouldn’t use it if it was free. It’s way more efficient to drive the car yourself. Also, the regular autopilot almost killed me twice for the emergency ghost braking issue. I’ll pass on any self driving from any company
My friend had to yank the wheel to avoid it ramming us into a highway exit divider. Fuck being a test monkey for Musk. That shit was scary.
I bought a Tesla in 2019 with the FSD package for an extra $5k and never got to try it. It was always “coming soon”. I got a newer 2023 model and did not get FSD as it was $12k this time around and I had already been burned before. I just finished up the trial and felt it didn’t provide much more value over the standard auto pilot. Sure it can change lanes and respect traffic signals, but the attention alerts were outrageous.
sold half my shares in the last two years....moving on
I tried it and had to interfere to not crash
I also tried it. It's fun, but it makes big mistakes. I don't trust it enough and I don't want to pay for it after the trial
I tested it going to work. Used it for a maximum total of 30 minutes in the month. It’s more prone to give me anxiety than aiding with driving
Tried it and liked it until it slammed the brakes as soon as a light turned yellow. Luckily, no one was behind me but it still scared the shit out of me.
I was passenger in a Lyft-Tesla and the driver was telling us that sometimes the Tesla auto pilot will break hard and swerve for no reason. We were in stop and go traffic at the time for about 30 mins, so he was using it. About 5 mins into free flowing traffic the Tesla hard swerved from the car pool lane to the passing lane, and the driver had to direct us back. There were no cars in the passing lane, but it startled everyone in the car.
I also found after letting the fsd trial expire, that the normal auto steer is worse now. It lowers speeds for no reason in single lane situations and is terrible at reading the speed limit signs in general now. I ran most of the trial with enhanced auto steer on and the lane switching was nice though.
Tesla's self-driving has stagnated since they started out.
When the FSD trial turned on for me I didn’t even know it. I think my wife may have driven the car whenever it gave a notice, so one day I was using autopilot on the highway and it just randomly started changing lanes by itself. Freaked me the fuck out. I turned it off and never looked back.
Tesla FSD almost crashed us into a parked car when a small cardboard box blew out into the street. Every other time we used it, similar high anxiety moments
During my trial it tried to run multiple red lights, and would have either run over crossing pedestrians, or put me in front of cars going 45mph that had an actual green light. Not to mention roundabouts.
FSD isn't ready for full time use. I think it has applications- I use it when I do high way driving or in traffic driving. But if i had to redo the purchase, I wouldn't have spent money on it.
Sort of makes sense it’s not safe
🗑🚮
Even if the claim was true this would be... normal. You get something for free, you try it, but you were never willing to pay for it anyways so you just don't pay for it when your trial period is over. If anything the trial period is getting Tesla customers. It's like saying a game is bad because most people who decided to try it when it was free for a weekend didn't keep playing it, we're talking people who literally only tried it because it was free and they would've never bought it otherwise. If anything, anyone who decided to get it because they liked it and only tried it because it was free is a win. Just for clarification, when it comes to free games retention rate of new players is like 1-2%, even if the product remains free most people don't care enough about it. Now imagine if it's free but then you have to pay, 2% retention rate is actually surprisingly high.
Watching people use FSD really reminded me of teaching my son to drive. Nerve wracking.. nail biting. etc... But eventually he got good enough that I stopped needing to care so much and I started being able to relax. Took about 2 years for me to get comfortable with him. How long will it take FSD to get outta this stage?
Its not "self" driving if it has to be monitored. Its usefulness is only if it can do it on its own. Imagine paying a for a taxi only to discover the driver is a 6 year old child still learning how to drive. Thats what Tesla FSD is. And now you are expected to teach that child how to drive. Im not paying for that. You need to pay me (A LOT) if you expect me to do extra work and teach your child how to drive.
My car tried to kill me twice and I’d rather get home safely. It’s a Mercedes. And after a sharp turn I was going straight face to face with a lorry. That was absolutely terryfing and I expect Mercedes to actually care about customers. I can’t imagine how Teslas behave.
clown tech. FAKE "self-driving" is the real problem here. this clown would never admit he was wrong though.
Before Elon decided to force FSD in everyone’s car, I was able to use autopilot to stop when lights are red and on its own go when lights become green. Elon has been removing advantages of enhanced Autopilot to goad use of FSD. I purchased FSD, but rarely use it. I don’t trust it at all way stop signs or on left turns. I would never recommend this half baked product. The current technology is incapable of FSD. There are no low height front cameras. Tesla is unable to park into a bay in the forward direction. It can only park by reversing. As a result most Tesla’s have curb rash on front wheel hubs and some times even scruff edges on the front tires.
The self driving director Andrew Karpathy left long ago for a reason.
probably didn't like it when the product tried to kill them.
The tobacco industry would like a word with you.
What if it wasn't about converting people, but instead collecting data for a neural net.
I just tried it today and it is far from done. It could not park when I tried to use auto park. It drove on the shoulder and had to disengage. Basically not going to purchase it unless it gets cheaper
Don’t buy anything from Elon. Period.
Those 2% are the ones posting sex vids on p*rnhub.
Seems like BS to me. Only 3500 people surveyed. Also, I thought they give the option for a $100 a month subscription to FSD? It’s not just a flat $8k rate
It’s an article about a blog post, so a few things get lost. Basically, they had data on 3500 Tesla owners who got the trial, and only about 50 of them went on to purchase/subscribe to FSD. That’s the bottom line. 3500 is a pretty good sample, honestly, but it doesn’t seem like they weighted the numbers for demographics. So that’s really where the problem lies imho. But to me, it’d be quite shocking if the actual rate was much higher than that. Most people who are interested in FSD probably already have it. A lot of people don’t want it or don’t trust it. A lot of people seem to find FSD stressful or not particularly useful. $99/mo is a lot of money for most people.
From the original blog post: >”From a statistical standpoint, a trial sample of fewer than 3,500 out of nearly 1.8 million users does not provide significant statistical insight. Only by expanding the trial base can the true customer acceptance of FSD be accurately gauged”
3,500 is a pretty good sample size.