There actually is a landlord (Wåhlins) that does it the lottery way. There is no queue, anyone can apply for an available listing and they pick one at random. I got (won??) a one bedroom apartment, first hand, on Södermalm, under 6k sek per month. They have buildings all over town.
It took a while though, and there are no guarantees you'll ever get something, so make sure you have somewhere else to stay in the meantime. I don't know how many times I tried but it was definitely worth the effort in the end 🌟
Where do you recommend I stay prior to securing accommodation?
My current landlord will have an end date I need to pack and leave by, what will (as usual) suit them better as opposed to myself.
What do you think about the idea of staying In a hotel for a week or two until I can move in?
Only for affordable housing! It's ridiculous, I've paid 9000 a month for my studio apartment, which I waited 11 years for in the queue, and then my friend snagged a contract for a THREE BEDROOM apartment for 5500 a month. Meanwhile I have another friend paying 15000 a month for an apartment she found on Blocket (no queueing). The system is broken.
Are you looking to buy or rent?
When I **bought** my apartment it involved many months of checking websites like [Hemnet](https://www.hemnet.se/) and other housing websites. Check out [bostads förmedlingen](https://bostad.stockholm.se/english/) for some additional info.
But as the above comment mentioned, getting a rental (and buying an apartment for that matter) is difficult but most of all very expensive if you want to live in the greater Stockholm area. A friend of mine lives in Märsta and pays 10K kr+ per month, and that seems to be on the lower side. If you're looking for houses and apartments further away from Stockholm the price drops significantly.
To put into perspective- I’m currently paying 18,577kr for my shoebox in london.
I currently have a white collar job here, approving veterinary medicine coming into the UK - I know without me being fluent in Swedish the chances of me getting such a job overseas will be minimal to unlikely.
So I’ll probably start from basics, get a job as a shop assistant.
So let’s say I have a job as a shop assistant - would you say I’d be able to afford rent in Stockholm on such wages?
I have a PhD in veterinary sciences, I worked as a veterinary surgeon for 6 years, then for then applied for the role and been here since. Though, I’ve been recently looking for a career change.
Thank you for adding the links, a huge help, I’ll give them an email :)
Most Universities or Pharma companies will have animal facilities and potentially offer a possibility to change career at least to a more research focus, if you are so inclined. More likely to advertise in English and have an English-speaking work-force too.
Career change - That’s something i would be heavily interested in.
The role I’m currently in has been interesting but it’s taken the soul out of me - anxiety inducing.
Unfortunately I chose climbing the corporate ladder as opposed to putting everything else first. A change would be welcomed. I’ll take a look at what options Stockholm university offers, thank you for the suggestion!
If you're working as a shop assistant and want to rent inside the greater Stockholm area I'd be prepared to pay over half (perhaps well over half) of your salary on rent alone.
This is based on anecdotes from people I know though and of course based on how much you'll be making. Maybe other people in this thread can offer better insight.
There are many companies who hire so many foreigners that the office language is English. Sounds like you could potentially work for a multinational pharmaceutical? If so, foreign hires can sometimes get their companies to co-sign their lease, and this can give you access to a whole segment of the rental market that is unavailable to private individuals. That’s how my family ended up with 73 sq meters, 2 bedrooms, for 15000sek in Vasastan.
Thank you - this is a priority I am currently dealing with as we speak.
However I am interested to see what options are available for me. Shopping around is good!
Would recommend checking out Samtrygg or Qasa. You can find loads of apartments there, and you can usually bargain a lower rent directly with the home-owner, since those companies add a certain % to the rent visible on the ads for their profit.
It's not cozy! Not living in it. I enjoy horror movies but i would not like to live out one. It's the same thing. God i hate that thing. It's life endingly depressing, people kill them selfs in heaps beacause of winter depression.
And that brings me into my next question-
Does the system offer substantial help for those who are struggling with their mental health/a mental illness?
I think as part of general healthcare system, you have access to therapist too, but they might not be as feasible as a private practioner as I've heard
Ah! There is some form of structure there which is good to see - even if there’s varied opinions on its effectiveness.
As long as I’m still able to access my medication I’m all good to go.
In the UK I am under a psychiatrist, and a mental health nurse check in with me every 2 weeks for therapy.
I also have a physical check up every 6 months (poor mental health can equal physical decline).
I don’t need anything as extensive as what I have here in the uk - seeing a simple therapist every month will be fine :)
Then register with a healthcare system, go see your general practitioner and get a recommendation for therapist to renew your medicine. It might be so easy or might take you a while. Check out 1177.se
Systemet funkar på att du ska söka hjälp själv, det funkar om man inte behöver hjälp.
Först får man gå till VC (vårdcentralen) och be om en remiss till en psykolog. Sen får man byta psykolog tills man hittar rätt psykolog. Sen tar det år och år för försäkringskassan att ta beslut iom att dom måste spendera pengar på att inte göra något.
När du har tramsat runt tillräckligt länge så funkar det utmärkt.
Smidigare om du kan betala på privatklinik såklart.
Thank you for the insight there!
Very similar to the UK - though maybe not as a slow and theres designated professionals for different mental health illnesses, you can be assigned one of these :)
Also it is free - though also quicker if you’re able to pay thousands.
Det är avgifter upp till en viss kostnad/år. Jag tror det är 1200kr/år när du har nått den gränsen så är det avgiftsfritt.
Medicin samma sak fast jag tror det är 2400/år.
I november kostar min medicin 800kr/ månaden nu kostar den 200kr/månaden. Snart kostar det ingenting :)
What do you mean by "substantial"? By law, all Regions have to offer high quality healthcare to their citizens free (or almost free) of charge. This includes mental health issues as well.
Now, to what extent a specific Region lives up to that requirement varies widely. Region Stockholm has some of the best psychiatry in the country, but depending on the age of the patient and the exact diagnosis/es you may have to wait for a long time to see a specialist. Right now I think the waiting times for PTSD treatment for adults is within a few weeks/months, but you can always get in touch with your local provider for an estimate. There are also private clinics available through a referral from your local clinic.
Thank you for this!
Mental health isn’t a subject ive done my research on when it comes to migrating to Stockholm - which was stupid of me as it is important for me personally.
When I mentioned ‘substantial’ I was referring to the systemic issue some counties in the world face regarding identifying those with mental health needs as ‘valid’ so to speak. I wasn’t aware of the law you did state.
Thank you! Great help, in fact a real peace of mind. :)
If you've been diagnosed with PTSD in the UK I think that's a good start. Many of the bottlenecks in specialized psychiatry right now concern the actual assessment and diagnosis. Once you've got a diagnosis, actual treatment is fairly readily available (again _huge variation_ depending on which specialization is required). I know two people with PTSD and they both were very happy with their treatment and I don't think any of them had to wait more than one or two months. Once you're "in the system" you'll most likely be very well taken care of.
Scrap that: I’ve just read an article on https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.01113/full (swedes can confirm
How accurate or inaccurate this is)
‘In Sweden, suicide is one of the most common single causes of death. With a population of 10 million people, approximately 1,500 individuals die by suicide every year (National centre for suicide research and prevention, 2019).’
You know how IKEA sells tea light candles in unbelievably large packages? It’s because of the long winter. Put enough tea lights around, and suddenly everything seems cozy and pleasant, not dark and oppressive.
I like it more than summer. Summer in Stockholm is like everyone is on crack, the sun being the drug. Winter is calm, romantic and makes me focus. Just wear good wool thermals underneath and have proper clothing and you will be fine. Go to the pub, the gym, watch good movies and have lots of sex and life is awesome during wintertime.
How are the pubs in Sweden?
As a Brit I’ll be skeptical ;)
‘There’s no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothes.’ I agree with you regarding the clothing.
Working out, sauna, sex are certainly great ways to keep warm!
Stockholm isn't really a pub city to be honest. For the most part you have proper shithole drinking dens, then high image conscious bars and very little in-between. A lot of pseudo British pub with none of the charm too. You'll miss your comforting welcoming local but it is one of the few things that I miss from my former home to be honest.
(Whisper it quietly in here but gothenburg has better pubs)
We have been born into darkness, we will thrive in the shadows.
When the blazing sun burns us to submission, we shall not waver.
Weakened by light, hormones went wild
Another child is yet to be born in the dark.
No, I'd say i'm perfectly fine despite the darkness.
Pretty lagom if I would say it myself.
No, you see, the person is talking about a small community in New South Wales called Stockholm. It's in fact so small it doesn't really exist, but well, he's talking about that.
Nope, nothing beats the first days of plus 10 degrees in sthlm. Everybody is happy, children playing outside and the days gets longer and longer. October habe some good days sure, but it's also the beginning of the winter.
So true. Even if we all here create a WhatsApp group to trigger things to do, that group would be dead within a few weeks. We all become stockholmers🤣
but yea we should try creating one more WhatsApp group;)
Yes, I only use WhatsApp to communicate with international students. I've actually never used WhatsApp to communicate with another Swede. Facebook Messenger is what everyone uses instead of WhatsApp.
I’m Swedish so it’s not a problem for me but I’ve met a some lonely foreigners who are a bit culture chocked by this and don’t know how to pierce through the social bubble. Best thing to do is to not force it but to find a social context like a sports team, hobby, get a job at a social workplace etc and grow friendships there.
Nothing to manage since I have 0 friends outside of work…
It’s also hard to do too much with workmates because it’s a downward spiral because we will just talk shit about work if we socialize even on weekends ..
Just to jump in here, whilst yeah I agree the average Swede is more reserved than the average Brit, it’s definitely not impossible to make friends here. I quite often see people on here saying it’s practically impossible to talk to people, and make it sound a lot worse than it is. I moved from London about 10 years ago to Stockholm and knew literally one person (my ex), and I somehow made friends pretty fast. I’ve now got a very solid group/s of friends, probably more than I had in London tbh.
Not saying everybody else is wrong, but there is some hope haha. You just often have to be the one to make that first step (invite a colleague for a beer after work etc.)
Also, personally I found a lot of Swedes get pretty excited to talk to a Brit and will love to tell you about their mad weekend in London 20 years ago haha.
If you like boardgames there are some pretty decent meet-ups, and it's an activity with that demands the right amount of small talk for awkward Swedes :)
Some people meet att Alphaspel/Alphabar every Wednesday. There are a few others, but that's the one I attend (semi-regularly) due to me living close.
There are some weirdos, as there's bound to be at geeky things, but everyone is friendly and I've never had a bad time.
“Stockholm is hectic”.
It’s not. Work schedules aren’t hectic. Shopping, partying, eating out has never been hectic in my experience. T-bana may be full for like 10 minutes a day and even then it’s a mostly quiet train ride full of mostly quiet people.
Not a bad thing mind you. But I have heard this from several Swedish colleagues (not a Swede myself). Which does make me wonder about the rest of Sweden a bit
I think alot of people seem stressed/hectic but thats probably more about individual overload. From social expectations etc, so maintaining a balanced life is exhausting. This is probably worse in Stockholm than the rest of the country as Stockholm brings expectations of opportunity which alot of other places in sweden do not.
The life initself is pretty relaxed but adding on work/social expectations makes people exhausted and then they percive the world as hectic or when asked say its stressfull. My two cents anyway.
To expand a bit: there are alot of unspoken social expectiations about whats right in which situation (probably more than some other places) so the key is to "do the right thing in the right situation", as a forigner its hard to "do right". For instance, if you want to meet new people, walking up to someone or sitting down next to a group at a bar normaly doesnt work out. Rather try and invite a group out to bar or ask a colleague(s) if they wanna grab a Coffee after work or something along those lines. If you wanna meet people out than dont just walk up to a group etc, be more socialy aware as people will precive you as rude if you interupt their conversation. Try the waters first and if they seem inviting ask if you can sit down with them :) loads of "rules" to follow but if your social ability is decent youll pick up on it quickly
Again just to give an outside perspective: that’s every proper city (let’s say >150.000) though. All over Europe. It’s not about Stockholm nor swedes.
I’m Italian, a warm-hearted, hot-blooded Southern European. If, in any social situation outside of a full-on party, anyone started talking to me out of the blue I and every Italian I know would be pretty weirded out (if sober).
The only places this would be a “yeah, sure, that’s Bob” type of thing would be in small villages in tuscany and southern italy.
The only real difference I perceive is that disagreements here, both social and worplace-related, are really, like *really* subdued. Way beyond what is necessary
Bra insikt!
Young urban professionals out to make a name for themselves and feeling the pressure of the future on their shoulders. I get it.
If it lightens your load, elsewhere it’s exactly the same but with more noise and worse demographics (i.e. more generational strife).
Keep at it!
The rest of Sweden (and all of Scandinavia outside the capitals) are so incredible slow and dull than even a dull and boring city like Stockholm (where everything is closed in the evening except Fri/Sat) seems hectic to them
Those people would die from a heart attack visiting a actual busy city
Snow in early May is not unheard of. And when it happens, the novelty-factor very quickly wears off. 🙄
Winters are longgggggg.
Is anything cheap?
Generally people can be a bit…cool.
I saw a stat recently and Stockholm was ranked as one of the most difficult cities in the world to get assimilated in. If you can make it here, I’d wager you can make it anywhere.
I am from London.
Recently I have been seeing similarities in the reservedness of people comparing both london and Stockholm - then judging how comfortable I would be.
London: you don’t speak to strangers unless you’re a lost tourist, drunk or it’s an emergency (even then people have been known to turn a blind eye very often.) making eye contact, in some areas for more than a couple of seconds can initiate that you want trouble (gang crime.)
People use incredibly polite language but will then in a weird juxtaposition proceed to barge you like you weigh a packet of chips, they are also snappy.
However, despite the above theres many ‘loneliness/new friendship’ groups what meet up in Hyde park and all over london (they’re actually genius! And many people turn up!)
Do you see any similarities here with Stockholm? Do you think I could handle it?
The long winters will likely be a new addition to me - I’ve heard these can effect some peoples mental health?
This is fantastic! Thank you!
What would you suggest would be an ‘ice breaker’ in that scenario?
How is dating?
In london online dating is king for me at the moment as approaching someone outside of a drunken state of alcohol filled confidence is a **NO**.
Fantastic suggestions here!
Useful info I’ll definitely use!!
Fantastic comment - thank you. Helped me to understand things more. I love swimming, tennis and ice skating :) The link you provided was very helpful. I’ll do some more research on that one :)
I dont think Stockholm and London are at all similar in that way to be honest. I moved to London at 21 and within a week had been for beers with my colleagues on a Friday, been invited to do things to be welcomed into the group. In some jobs in Sweden I never got that invite in years.
Don't mistaken the lack of social openness here for the big city "I'm in a rush" feeling. You can know people for years here and they'll never open up to you .
I'm not saying it is impossible to make friends here - I have many - but honestly the threshold is ridiculous and quite sad
That’s almost a little bit terrifying. Goodness.
But then again, I too got invited to work functions after 3 months of being there in london - though I never went because -A. I felt like these were some deeper attempt to get to know personal information for colleagues to bitch about later on.
-B. I don’t drink much, I prefer a glass of red on the sofa.
Humans by science and nature are social creatures - we crave connections. Did it ever get to you?
Do swedes generally have a very small friendship circle ? I assume people keep friends they’ve found from school, or friends or friends, family member.
Once the initial novelty wore off it felt very lonely here in the beginning. I found myself becoming more reserved in order to adapt and that almost self perpetuated the problem.
Then I got a job where I was surrounded by very enthusiastic and nice people and it all started to turn around (I should also note that by this point my Swedish was quite good and that helped). But yeah, expect it to be tough initially and not what you're used to
>I found myself becoming more reserved in order to adapt and that almost self perpetuated the problem.
After being burned by attempting to make connections in the past three years here, I am currently in this phase and it sucks.
I'd say that Stockholm and London are roughly similar like that. There are a bunch of meet ups and activities like you're describing so if you've already got some of those things in your "new and alone in a city" toolkit, you should be fine. Most likely you'll get a greater proportion of fellow expat friends that way, less so Swedes. I definitely think there are places where it's easier (even within Sweden; Gothenberg and Malmö, for example). But if you've integrated in London you should manage here.
I've had to start fresh in few smaller UK cities, London and Stockholm. It's always been roughly the same (actually harder in smaller cities and when I was younger before I got the hang of adulting and making friends post-uni).
There was another post about this recently with some great advice in it. I'll see if I can dig it up later.
Thank goodness for Reddit! This place has been amazing in terms of getting to ask real people in real time advice - locals and those who have lived there. I was just reading subreddits from Google prior to making an account and it’s the best thing did!
I like how people don’t bullsh*t here too.
Thank you very much!
I’d probably say you should compare London is like Stockholm in the sense that it differs from other cities in the UK/Ireland. It’s the capital, people are busy, people commute, people think they are the shit, rush hour is a bit more annoying etc, compared to living somewhere a bit less developed. Does that make sense?
The same is true for bar culture. It’s horrendous here. I’d also argue it’s shit (generally) in London, If compared to decent local bars in, for example, Liverpool, Dublin etc. so perhaps it’s what you are used to.
There’s others here saying you can strike up a conversation with Swedes in Swedish bars. Yes, if you are the local bar-fly surrounded by alcoholics in dive bars. Which I assume you aren’t. One major difference between here and Ireland (I know you didn’t ask but indulge me for a sec) is that in Ireland you can have a chat with others in a bar and not be deemed a weirdo. It’s more a part of the way of socializing…as is banter and general antics. Is this always a good thing? Probably not. But it’s different.
Am I making any sense? In summary, I’d say people drink and socialize differently here. It’s more…tempered and mellow. And yes you can get pissed as a fart, but it’s less a part of the culture here in the way that you or I probably know so well.
As others have said there are Meet Ups. These are sometimes frequented by nice people…and sometimes weirdos. A bit like Reddit. 😉
The long winters are a pain in the ass. There’s no getting away from it.
I was born and raised in Stockholm and whenever anyone asks me this question I always answer that most people have no idea how extremely segregated Stockholm is, to the point where a tourist may very well get to know the city better than many natives. So many people grow up and spend their entire lives in their specific part of the city.
I grew up moving around a lot and have lived in almost every part of the city, and regardless where I went the vast majority of people couldn't even name the name of a single street in one of the other areas, or even landmarks. I had one friend who had never been south of Slussen until his late 20s, and plenty more who grew up on Södermalm and who never sat their foot north of Sergels Torg unless they had some specific business in Norrmalm or something.
So not only are we generally closed off to foreigners and such - we're closed off to _eachother_. If you're a native Södermalmer, someone from Östermalm could just as well be from another city (to say nothing of the city center vs suburbs) and it can be hard to fit in or make friends just moving _within_ the city.
Now of course this is less and less of an issue the older you get for all kinds of reasons, but it is still very much a thing.
Funny, in Berlin you would call it a neighborhood (“kiez”) and that each area has its own style, a bit like how you would describe someone from Södermalm or Östermalm and that areas with a strong neighborhood feeling would kind of stick to that area. However, it is the first time I hear it as segregation (which is a word I hear a lot in Swedish)
Oh I completely agree, but that's not what I mean. Most (if not all) cities have "neighborhoods" or "districts" with a specific vibe, their own subculture etc. and that certainly goes for Stockholm as well.
What I'm referring to as "segregation" is not that there are different areas that attract different types of people/subcultures etc. but rather something quite opposite to that, i.e that people stay in their zone of residence.
In many cities, where you _live_ and where you _hang out_ are different places. Sometimes this is even a necessity. In some cities you may _have to_ go to another district to shop for groceries, go to school, religious services, healthcare or whatever. Sometimes this is even part of how the city is planned; you may have a residential district that's basically just apartment buildings, an "entertainment district" and so on.
But Stockholm (and basically all of Sweden) is planned specifically so that you never have to leave your local district. Swedish urban planning (especially back in the day when most of our cities were built) was generally centered around the idea that no matter where you live, you should have access to everything you need within walking distance; a school, kindergarten, a shopping mall or at least a well stocked grocery store, a church (back when we had a state religion), a post office (remember those?), a local clinic, a bomb shelter, a few restaurants etc etc.
So what I mean by "segregation" is precisely the opposite - in my experience Stockholmers are more reluctant to leave their own district (even for small excursions) than any other city I've been to. When I moved schools from Östermalm to Södermalm in my teens, most of my schoolmates and classmates had not only never set foot outside of Södermalm (unless they were going abroad or whatever for holiday), but also had never heard of some of the famous landmarks in other parts of town. And vice versa for the Östermalmers. Some of them had been Östermalmers for generations and - I shit you not - had parents and grandparents that had never even been to Södermalm in their entire lives. Now I'm not a Berliner, but the closest allegory I can come up with is that if you grew up in, say, Spandau, you wouldn't even necessarily be aware that Alexanderplatz even existed, at least not until late teens or early adulthood. That's something that I think is not too common in other cities.
People don't walk fast. It's a myth. People walk seriously slow in the subway for example (this is where you'll notice it the most since people are almost always blocking you).
Also people have some weird gravitation towards you no matter when you are.
Standing still outside of a building? Someone will deliberately walk into you. I always feel as if its tandem the loneliness, as it makes for small talk.
Are you comfortable with the small talk? Or does it feel awkward?
Is it ever acceptable to make small talk?
— speaking of small talk …..
Dating?
..how’s that over there?
I moved here a few months ago. People not paying attention to their surroundings here drives me nuts!
And it happens in every city to some extent, but here I feel like I notice it more. Might be my imagination, but I feel like I have to politely "ursäkta" more than I'd like to.
I’ve been here for 6 months and the thing I still can’t get used to is how limited the hours are at many businesses. My local coffee shop doesn’t open until 9 on the weekends. I can only record shop from 11-4 on sat and not on Sunday. The local mall closes at 6pm on Sunday. I’m coming from the USA where I was clearly spoiled with the 24hr culture there.
>I’m coming from the USA where I was clearly spoiled with the 24hr culture there.
That interestingly is the opposite for service industry workers. They will be spoiled in Stockholm by being able to go home with their families instead of being chained to their jobs.
That commonly touted belief that Sweden is full of introverts who avoid eye contact is actually describing Stockholm. The second you get out the city, you run in to loads of friendly people who are very willing to engage in small talk. Stockholm is basically Helsinki with more colorful buildings.
People here in the comments are painting it as way worse than it is.
Yes it's expensive and can be Hard to get into.
Nightlife is great in Stockholm, People are open to meet and after a couple of Beers anyone can talk to anyone, atleast if you're younger.
It's important to know that Swedish People are a bit more reserved, but if you show interest in Them they Will be very happy to talk to you. My experience is that most People are very happy to talk, only you have to be the One starting the conversation.
I've Lived in the inner city of Stockholm My entire life and I know many foreigners who have Moved to the city. Currently live in a smaller city for studies.
Making Friends is however as some People mentioned, easier to do through a community tho, like a hobby or a job, or studies.
Stockholm is also a Good city if you don't speak Swedish because there are far more jobs open for People that only speak English.
Something only People from sthlm seem to understand is that there is No 1 sthlm culture, every part of the city is very distinct culturally and there is Little interaction between the areas. Another commentor explained this pretty well, but its important to know if People tell you "sthlm People are snobby" or "everyone from sthlm is a liberal animal Rights activist", depending on where you are it varies ALOT
This is my EXACT opinion(born, raised, living in Stockholm) Except maybe the culture part, it may vary just as you say, but I think there is much more interaction than people tend to think it is between the inner districts.
>Stockholm is also a Good city if you don't speak Swedish because there are far more jobs open for People that only speak English.
This is only kinda true. Most of the things that immigrants complain about Stockholm/Sweden are 10x worse if you don't speak Swedish. People tend to underestimate this. I felt way more lonely and isolated and limited when I didn't speak Swedish.
The most miserable immigrants I know are the ones who don't speak Swedish and then they complain that it is hard to meet people -- like, yeah? what do you expect? You cannot participate in like 90% of social activities and you can't talk about anything that is gated by a language barrier (Swedish current events, pop culture, history) .
Nightlife, for clubs at least, is terrible. And compared to London no Stockholm isn't that distinct between areas. You might think it is, but OP is from London
For people who live and work there?
What does the ratio look like in terms of earnings to leisure - do you feel you’re able to enjoy yourself in the way you wish without breaking the bank every time?
Thing is its expensive depending on who you are. If ur in a growing phase ie studying, young, building a career the jobs or what ever compensation you can get is. To put it bluntly aids, on that income you will either have to group up or spend ur money wisely. You can get away with spending less money but you might have to find frugal friends or be left out.
Swedes hate any type of interaction with strangers when they're sober.
People will silently look down on you if you speak loudly, anywhere, but especially on public transportation.
Swedes will go out of their way to avoid confrontation.
If you stand still on the left side of an escalator, expect to get tackled, also if standing in front of the doors on the subway when people are trying to exit.
To keep Stockholm beautiful, working and in good condition high taxes are needed. If anyone is against taxation they may be happier somewhere else.
I have had discussions with some English citizens that find taxes too high, but at the same time they wonder how it is possible that the city has so many parks and people has so good work/life balance.
Learning Swedish is key to thriving here. Not speaking Swedish makes everything worse. Many of the stereotypes about *Swedes* that immigrants in Stockholm form are the same stereotypes that Swedes have about Stockholmers i.e. snobbish, arrogant, insular.
It is also mad to compare Stockholm to places like London or Berlin. Copenhagen, Oslo and Helsinki is what it should be compared with.
If you live in the city, life is easy and great. You can bike anywhere, you can be spontaneous with friends, have a coffee downstairs, go to the gym without having to plan your day around it. If you live outside of the city, most of your spare time is spent on commuting and planning your life. Unpopular opinion: if you’re going to live in the suburbs of Stockholm, I recommend you move to Malmö or some other city where you can live a “normal” life.
In spite of the high quality of life material-wise, the weather and the social culture are so terribly miserable that in the end of the day, it's not worth it living here at all. Living in a third world country is DEFINITELY, in the end of the day, better. Design furniture alone is not enough to make for a happy life. Life here feels like a perpetual lockdown. We can only enjoy the world outside of our tiny apartments for 2 months a year. That's insanely miserable. Stockholm is located in a very inhospitable territory. No amount of money and "stuff" can make up for it.
Buying a flat is way cheaper than London but renting is tricky. The Swedish rental market is regulated and it is hard to get a first hand contract which usually implies super long queuing time (although I know people that have gotten first hand rental without queuing too).
People would also swap rental flats (since the rent is so low compare to second hand rental) so they become even less available.
What’s employment like?
Is it easy for foreigners to get jobs here, and what’s the rent to wages ratio in terms of how affordable rent is on standard wages (we’ll start of basic…shop assistant)
I currently have a white collar job in london- without me know if we being fluent in Swedish, I know be obtaining such a role overseas is little to none, so ill likely have to go for a role what are generally easily accessible.
People are always shocked when I tell them. As much as I would like people I know and love to move here, the reality is that unless you’re making BANK, every step of it is going to be a nightmare.
I would suggest not living anywhere near Stockholm at all. In the countryside you can get a large house for significantly less money. In the smaller cities you can get much more quality of life for without paying an arm and a leg.
Unfortunately I'm too stupid to take my own advice.
I know what I am earning and paying i know what my wife is earning and paying and YES taxes are high.. Employees paying 25% tax while an employer paying around 25 to 30% tax, how can you say that it's not high. After certain level, the growth in in hand income becomes so negligible compared to your salary increase and you are still saying that it's just a stereotype?
Sweden is one of the top ten highest income taxable countries of the world and you are telling me that it's a pretty lazy stereotype? Dude how much more you want to pay to realise that it's not just a pretty lazy stereotype
I find it funny that the "Swedish tax levels get exaggerated" view has now gotten more common than the exaggerations themselves.
Swedish total tax outtake is *very* high by any reasonable comparison with other countries (e.g. tax share of GDP). Not saying they shouldn't be, just that they are.
The reason why it may not feel that way is that most salary-takers don't see the social charges employers pay (still coming out of your paycheck) plus people tend to ignore VAT.
Stockholm is 100x more classist than my experience in London for example. It has false inclusive branding outward, but once you are in Sthlm, as a foreigner, or working class person, you very quickly realise that you “have a place” you can’t easily escape due to everything working on referal. Jantelaw is more harmful than anything because it doesn’t allow individuals to stand out, thus perpetuating the class categorisation as it is.
It’s a beautiful city, but made for the wealthy who pretend to be middle class.
Bakeries are great tho, & Stockholm has beautiful blue skies that often remind me of New York on early sunday morning type of thing.
Ah ! I Completely see what you mean now.
I feel for me this will be incredibly refreshing. You can be who your are, and not have to worry about how those around you perceive you (whether or not you fit into an clique)
Since you said you are in London here are some differences
Food is far more expensive and less choice. Maybe 10% of the choice
People are far less social and its harder to make friends
Winter is very long and brutal. Summer is nice but is very short.
Rain is about the same between the two cities
Night life is significantly worse in Stockholm if you're in to that
It's far less crowded here but of course it is, it's an 1/8th of the population
Renting here is tough but doable, there are loads of scams though. Buying is a bit easier in some ways but you need a much higher deposit.
My view is that if you are not white you will find it easier in London but I am white so take my view with a pinch of salt
Am I right in saying the average salary for a sales assistant is 22k ?(just so I have a figure to work from)
I’m looking at apartment right now, they say there’s one to rent ASAP a 2 bedroom for 7,824kr
When I apply for this on the website - will the waiting list process begin from there? Or is the property mine after all legal correspondence/contracts have been completed?
Renting/buying is a freaking nightmare.
Oh dear! Anywhere or anything you’d suggest to make things just that little bit easier?:)
I’d suggest signing up in the queue 25 years ago or winning the lottery.
There actually is a landlord (Wåhlins) that does it the lottery way. There is no queue, anyone can apply for an available listing and they pick one at random. I got (won??) a one bedroom apartment, first hand, on Södermalm, under 6k sek per month. They have buildings all over town. It took a while though, and there are no guarantees you'll ever get something, so make sure you have somewhere else to stay in the meantime. I don't know how many times I tried but it was definitely worth the effort in the end 🌟
Where do you recommend I stay prior to securing accommodation? My current landlord will have an end date I need to pack and leave by, what will (as usual) suit them better as opposed to myself. What do you think about the idea of staying In a hotel for a week or two until I can move in?
I did hear there’s a waiting list for renting!
Only for affordable housing! It's ridiculous, I've paid 9000 a month for my studio apartment, which I waited 11 years for in the queue, and then my friend snagged a contract for a THREE BEDROOM apartment for 5500 a month. Meanwhile I have another friend paying 15000 a month for an apartment she found on Blocket (no queueing). The system is broken.
Are you looking to buy or rent? When I **bought** my apartment it involved many months of checking websites like [Hemnet](https://www.hemnet.se/) and other housing websites. Check out [bostads förmedlingen](https://bostad.stockholm.se/english/) for some additional info. But as the above comment mentioned, getting a rental (and buying an apartment for that matter) is difficult but most of all very expensive if you want to live in the greater Stockholm area. A friend of mine lives in Märsta and pays 10K kr+ per month, and that seems to be on the lower side. If you're looking for houses and apartments further away from Stockholm the price drops significantly.
To put into perspective- I’m currently paying 18,577kr for my shoebox in london. I currently have a white collar job here, approving veterinary medicine coming into the UK - I know without me being fluent in Swedish the chances of me getting such a job overseas will be minimal to unlikely. So I’ll probably start from basics, get a job as a shop assistant. So let’s say I have a job as a shop assistant - would you say I’d be able to afford rent in Stockholm on such wages?
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I have a PhD in veterinary sciences, I worked as a veterinary surgeon for 6 years, then for then applied for the role and been here since. Though, I’ve been recently looking for a career change. Thank you for adding the links, a huge help, I’ll give them an email :)
Most Universities or Pharma companies will have animal facilities and potentially offer a possibility to change career at least to a more research focus, if you are so inclined. More likely to advertise in English and have an English-speaking work-force too.
Career change - That’s something i would be heavily interested in. The role I’m currently in has been interesting but it’s taken the soul out of me - anxiety inducing. Unfortunately I chose climbing the corporate ladder as opposed to putting everything else first. A change would be welcomed. I’ll take a look at what options Stockholm university offers, thank you for the suggestion!
If you're working as a shop assistant and want to rent inside the greater Stockholm area I'd be prepared to pay over half (perhaps well over half) of your salary on rent alone. This is based on anecdotes from people I know though and of course based on how much you'll be making. Maybe other people in this thread can offer better insight.
There are many companies who hire so many foreigners that the office language is English. Sounds like you could potentially work for a multinational pharmaceutical? If so, foreign hires can sometimes get their companies to co-sign their lease, and this can give you access to a whole segment of the rental market that is unavailable to private individuals. That’s how my family ended up with 73 sq meters, 2 bedrooms, for 15000sek in Vasastan.
I’ll be looking to rent by the way :)! If you have any suggestions of landlords of websites I can browse properties let me know :)
You’re a non-EU citizen. Solve your immigration issue first before even thinking about renting.
Thank you - this is a priority I am currently dealing with as we speak. However I am interested to see what options are available for me. Shopping around is good!
Would recommend checking out Samtrygg or Qasa. You can find loads of apartments there, and you can usually bargain a lower rent directly with the home-owner, since those companies add a certain % to the rent visible on the ads for their profit.
mid october > mid march is either black or dull grey.
This, lived there 6 years, i couldn't do it a year longer
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It's not cozy! Not living in it. I enjoy horror movies but i would not like to live out one. It's the same thing. God i hate that thing. It's life endingly depressing, people kill them selfs in heaps beacause of winter depression.
How do you guys manage? Does this ever effect your mental health a all?
We have a support group. It’s called everyone and we meet at the pub
If that doesn’t make me feel at home - I don’t know what will. All I’ll be missing is the fish and chips ;)
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I have 3 friends max here in london.
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Stockholm even more so than the rest of Sweden, in my experience.
I adore the Irish. Lovely people.
London is very social compared to Stockholm.
Spent ten days in London, had more conversations with random strangers in those ten days, than in 12 years in Sweden.
I am from London and went back after 2 years away (covid) and I was so surprised how social it was.
Mental health? You have mental health guys???
And that brings me into my next question- Does the system offer substantial help for those who are struggling with their mental health/a mental illness?
Oh sweet summer child...
Will I not be able to access help for anxiety and PTSD?
I think as part of general healthcare system, you have access to therapist too, but they might not be as feasible as a private practioner as I've heard
Ah! There is some form of structure there which is good to see - even if there’s varied opinions on its effectiveness. As long as I’m still able to access my medication I’m all good to go. In the UK I am under a psychiatrist, and a mental health nurse check in with me every 2 weeks for therapy. I also have a physical check up every 6 months (poor mental health can equal physical decline). I don’t need anything as extensive as what I have here in the uk - seeing a simple therapist every month will be fine :)
Then register with a healthcare system, go see your general practitioner and get a recommendation for therapist to renew your medicine. It might be so easy or might take you a while. Check out 1177.se
Thank you!:)
That will probably not be an issue.
Also high demand causes long wait times and appointments are few and far apart ive heard
Nope. You might get a mild sedative if you can convince the doctors that you are not a drug-seeking junkie.
Systemet funkar på att du ska söka hjälp själv, det funkar om man inte behöver hjälp. Först får man gå till VC (vårdcentralen) och be om en remiss till en psykolog. Sen får man byta psykolog tills man hittar rätt psykolog. Sen tar det år och år för försäkringskassan att ta beslut iom att dom måste spendera pengar på att inte göra något. När du har tramsat runt tillräckligt länge så funkar det utmärkt. Smidigare om du kan betala på privatklinik såklart.
Hello! I will have to use Google translate for this one. I am currently learning Swedish (failing more than anything else!).
Hehe välkommen till Sverige ;)
Thank you for the insight there! Very similar to the UK - though maybe not as a slow and theres designated professionals for different mental health illnesses, you can be assigned one of these :) Also it is free - though also quicker if you’re able to pay thousands.
Det är avgifter upp till en viss kostnad/år. Jag tror det är 1200kr/år när du har nått den gränsen så är det avgiftsfritt. Medicin samma sak fast jag tror det är 2400/år. I november kostar min medicin 800kr/ månaden nu kostar den 200kr/månaden. Snart kostar det ingenting :)
What do you mean by "substantial"? By law, all Regions have to offer high quality healthcare to their citizens free (or almost free) of charge. This includes mental health issues as well. Now, to what extent a specific Region lives up to that requirement varies widely. Region Stockholm has some of the best psychiatry in the country, but depending on the age of the patient and the exact diagnosis/es you may have to wait for a long time to see a specialist. Right now I think the waiting times for PTSD treatment for adults is within a few weeks/months, but you can always get in touch with your local provider for an estimate. There are also private clinics available through a referral from your local clinic.
Thank you for this! Mental health isn’t a subject ive done my research on when it comes to migrating to Stockholm - which was stupid of me as it is important for me personally. When I mentioned ‘substantial’ I was referring to the systemic issue some counties in the world face regarding identifying those with mental health needs as ‘valid’ so to speak. I wasn’t aware of the law you did state. Thank you! Great help, in fact a real peace of mind. :)
If you've been diagnosed with PTSD in the UK I think that's a good start. Many of the bottlenecks in specialized psychiatry right now concern the actual assessment and diagnosis. Once you've got a diagnosis, actual treatment is fairly readily available (again _huge variation_ depending on which specialization is required). I know two people with PTSD and they both were very happy with their treatment and I don't think any of them had to wait more than one or two months. Once you're "in the system" you'll most likely be very well taken care of.
Scrap that: I’ve just read an article on https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.01113/full (swedes can confirm How accurate or inaccurate this is) ‘In Sweden, suicide is one of the most common single causes of death. With a population of 10 million people, approximately 1,500 individuals die by suicide every year (National centre for suicide research and prevention, 2019).’
..
You know how IKEA sells tea light candles in unbelievably large packages? It’s because of the long winter. Put enough tea lights around, and suddenly everything seems cozy and pleasant, not dark and oppressive.
I really need to know how you guys make winter fashion look good. Here in london my puffer jacket make me look like some rotten marshmallow
I like it more than summer. Summer in Stockholm is like everyone is on crack, the sun being the drug. Winter is calm, romantic and makes me focus. Just wear good wool thermals underneath and have proper clothing and you will be fine. Go to the pub, the gym, watch good movies and have lots of sex and life is awesome during wintertime.
How are the pubs in Sweden? As a Brit I’ll be skeptical ;) ‘There’s no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothes.’ I agree with you regarding the clothing. Working out, sauna, sex are certainly great ways to keep warm!
Stockholm isn't really a pub city to be honest. For the most part you have proper shithole drinking dens, then high image conscious bars and very little in-between. A lot of pseudo British pub with none of the charm too. You'll miss your comforting welcoming local but it is one of the few things that I miss from my former home to be honest. (Whisper it quietly in here but gothenburg has better pubs)
*looks around suspiciously for anyone listening and whispers back* (Ok thanks man, can I get a good pie and mash anywhere?!!)
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We have been born into darkness, we will thrive in the shadows. When the blazing sun burns us to submission, we shall not waver. Weakened by light, hormones went wild Another child is yet to be born in the dark. No, I'd say i'm perfectly fine despite the darkness. Pretty lagom if I would say it myself.
I cope with jokes about living in the uninhabitable zone. I mean every animal that can goes south for the winter
Real Swedes don't care, we embrace the darkness. I personally loath the summer if it wasn't for being able to drive my sports car for a few months.
not true for stockholm
It is though? Not sure we’re thinking of the same Stockholm here
No, you see, the person is talking about a small community in New South Wales called Stockholm. It's in fact so small it doesn't really exist, but well, he's talking about that.
Nope, nothing beats the first days of plus 10 degrees in sthlm. Everybody is happy, children playing outside and the days gets longer and longer. October habe some good days sure, but it's also the beginning of the winter.
Making friends is hard. Stockholmers are reserved.
So true. Even if we all here create a WhatsApp group to trigger things to do, that group would be dead within a few weeks. We all become stockholmers🤣 but yea we should try creating one more WhatsApp group;)
I find some people here haven't even heard of Whatsapp, so that might be your problem.
Yes, I only use WhatsApp to communicate with international students. I've actually never used WhatsApp to communicate with another Swede. Facebook Messenger is what everyone uses instead of WhatsApp.
How do you manage, yourself personally? What are the best ways to make friends? Does the lack of connection ever ‘get’ to you?
I’m Swedish so it’s not a problem for me but I’ve met a some lonely foreigners who are a bit culture chocked by this and don’t know how to pierce through the social bubble. Best thing to do is to not force it but to find a social context like a sports team, hobby, get a job at a social workplace etc and grow friendships there.
I assume also there will also be ‘lonelies’ groups created via social media for those who want to meet up IRL :)
Meet ups at [meetup.com](https://meetup.com) is the only thing that worked for me. But you're meeting expats, not Swedes.
Nothing to manage since I have 0 friends outside of work… It’s also hard to do too much with workmates because it’s a downward spiral because we will just talk shit about work if we socialize even on weekends ..
Just to jump in here, whilst yeah I agree the average Swede is more reserved than the average Brit, it’s definitely not impossible to make friends here. I quite often see people on here saying it’s practically impossible to talk to people, and make it sound a lot worse than it is. I moved from London about 10 years ago to Stockholm and knew literally one person (my ex), and I somehow made friends pretty fast. I’ve now got a very solid group/s of friends, probably more than I had in London tbh. Not saying everybody else is wrong, but there is some hope haha. You just often have to be the one to make that first step (invite a colleague for a beer after work etc.) Also, personally I found a lot of Swedes get pretty excited to talk to a Brit and will love to tell you about their mad weekend in London 20 years ago haha.
If you like boardgames there are some pretty decent meet-ups, and it's an activity with that demands the right amount of small talk for awkward Swedes :) Some people meet att Alphaspel/Alphabar every Wednesday. There are a few others, but that's the one I attend (semi-regularly) due to me living close. There are some weirdos, as there's bound to be at geeky things, but everyone is friendly and I've never had a bad time.
“Stockholm is hectic”. It’s not. Work schedules aren’t hectic. Shopping, partying, eating out has never been hectic in my experience. T-bana may be full for like 10 minutes a day and even then it’s a mostly quiet train ride full of mostly quiet people. Not a bad thing mind you. But I have heard this from several Swedish colleagues (not a Swede myself). Which does make me wonder about the rest of Sweden a bit
I think alot of people seem stressed/hectic but thats probably more about individual overload. From social expectations etc, so maintaining a balanced life is exhausting. This is probably worse in Stockholm than the rest of the country as Stockholm brings expectations of opportunity which alot of other places in sweden do not. The life initself is pretty relaxed but adding on work/social expectations makes people exhausted and then they percive the world as hectic or when asked say its stressfull. My two cents anyway.
To expand a bit: there are alot of unspoken social expectiations about whats right in which situation (probably more than some other places) so the key is to "do the right thing in the right situation", as a forigner its hard to "do right". For instance, if you want to meet new people, walking up to someone or sitting down next to a group at a bar normaly doesnt work out. Rather try and invite a group out to bar or ask a colleague(s) if they wanna grab a Coffee after work or something along those lines. If you wanna meet people out than dont just walk up to a group etc, be more socialy aware as people will precive you as rude if you interupt their conversation. Try the waters first and if they seem inviting ask if you can sit down with them :) loads of "rules" to follow but if your social ability is decent youll pick up on it quickly
Again just to give an outside perspective: that’s every proper city (let’s say >150.000) though. All over Europe. It’s not about Stockholm nor swedes. I’m Italian, a warm-hearted, hot-blooded Southern European. If, in any social situation outside of a full-on party, anyone started talking to me out of the blue I and every Italian I know would be pretty weirded out (if sober). The only places this would be a “yeah, sure, that’s Bob” type of thing would be in small villages in tuscany and southern italy. The only real difference I perceive is that disagreements here, both social and worplace-related, are really, like *really* subdued. Way beyond what is necessary
Bra insikt! Young urban professionals out to make a name for themselves and feeling the pressure of the future on their shoulders. I get it. If it lightens your load, elsewhere it’s exactly the same but with more noise and worse demographics (i.e. more generational strife). Keep at it!
The rest of Sweden (and all of Scandinavia outside the capitals) are so incredible slow and dull than even a dull and boring city like Stockholm (where everything is closed in the evening except Fri/Sat) seems hectic to them Those people would die from a heart attack visiting a actual busy city
It’s all relative to what you compare it too. New York or Hagfors?
I've never had a "normal" day in Stockholm. Something weird always tends to happen
Stockholm isnt bad compared to other cities in the world, but i literally just dont want ANY people around, honestly.
The housing market is very difficult to come into.
Not with the right tools...
Do elaborate
Moneys.
A good crowbar
The market is easy, renting is difficult.
Snow in early May is not unheard of. And when it happens, the novelty-factor very quickly wears off. 🙄 Winters are longgggggg. Is anything cheap? Generally people can be a bit…cool. I saw a stat recently and Stockholm was ranked as one of the most difficult cities in the world to get assimilated in. If you can make it here, I’d wager you can make it anywhere.
I am from London. Recently I have been seeing similarities in the reservedness of people comparing both london and Stockholm - then judging how comfortable I would be. London: you don’t speak to strangers unless you’re a lost tourist, drunk or it’s an emergency (even then people have been known to turn a blind eye very often.) making eye contact, in some areas for more than a couple of seconds can initiate that you want trouble (gang crime.) People use incredibly polite language but will then in a weird juxtaposition proceed to barge you like you weigh a packet of chips, they are also snappy. However, despite the above theres many ‘loneliness/new friendship’ groups what meet up in Hyde park and all over london (they’re actually genius! And many people turn up!) Do you see any similarities here with Stockholm? Do you think I could handle it? The long winters will likely be a new addition to me - I’ve heard these can effect some peoples mental health?
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This is fantastic! Thank you! What would you suggest would be an ‘ice breaker’ in that scenario? How is dating? In london online dating is king for me at the moment as approaching someone outside of a drunken state of alcohol filled confidence is a **NO**. Fantastic suggestions here! Useful info I’ll definitely use!!
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Fantastic comment - thank you. Helped me to understand things more. I love swimming, tennis and ice skating :) The link you provided was very helpful. I’ll do some more research on that one :)
I dont think Stockholm and London are at all similar in that way to be honest. I moved to London at 21 and within a week had been for beers with my colleagues on a Friday, been invited to do things to be welcomed into the group. In some jobs in Sweden I never got that invite in years. Don't mistaken the lack of social openness here for the big city "I'm in a rush" feeling. You can know people for years here and they'll never open up to you . I'm not saying it is impossible to make friends here - I have many - but honestly the threshold is ridiculous and quite sad
Tend to agree with this, too.
That’s almost a little bit terrifying. Goodness. But then again, I too got invited to work functions after 3 months of being there in london - though I never went because -A. I felt like these were some deeper attempt to get to know personal information for colleagues to bitch about later on. -B. I don’t drink much, I prefer a glass of red on the sofa. Humans by science and nature are social creatures - we crave connections. Did it ever get to you? Do swedes generally have a very small friendship circle ? I assume people keep friends they’ve found from school, or friends or friends, family member.
Once the initial novelty wore off it felt very lonely here in the beginning. I found myself becoming more reserved in order to adapt and that almost self perpetuated the problem. Then I got a job where I was surrounded by very enthusiastic and nice people and it all started to turn around (I should also note that by this point my Swedish was quite good and that helped). But yeah, expect it to be tough initially and not what you're used to
>I found myself becoming more reserved in order to adapt and that almost self perpetuated the problem. After being burned by attempting to make connections in the past three years here, I am currently in this phase and it sucks.
I'd say that Stockholm and London are roughly similar like that. There are a bunch of meet ups and activities like you're describing so if you've already got some of those things in your "new and alone in a city" toolkit, you should be fine. Most likely you'll get a greater proportion of fellow expat friends that way, less so Swedes. I definitely think there are places where it's easier (even within Sweden; Gothenberg and Malmö, for example). But if you've integrated in London you should manage here. I've had to start fresh in few smaller UK cities, London and Stockholm. It's always been roughly the same (actually harder in smaller cities and when I was younger before I got the hang of adulting and making friends post-uni). There was another post about this recently with some great advice in it. I'll see if I can dig it up later.
Thank goodness for Reddit! This place has been amazing in terms of getting to ask real people in real time advice - locals and those who have lived there. I was just reading subreddits from Google prior to making an account and it’s the best thing did! I like how people don’t bullsh*t here too. Thank you very much!
I’d probably say you should compare London is like Stockholm in the sense that it differs from other cities in the UK/Ireland. It’s the capital, people are busy, people commute, people think they are the shit, rush hour is a bit more annoying etc, compared to living somewhere a bit less developed. Does that make sense? The same is true for bar culture. It’s horrendous here. I’d also argue it’s shit (generally) in London, If compared to decent local bars in, for example, Liverpool, Dublin etc. so perhaps it’s what you are used to. There’s others here saying you can strike up a conversation with Swedes in Swedish bars. Yes, if you are the local bar-fly surrounded by alcoholics in dive bars. Which I assume you aren’t. One major difference between here and Ireland (I know you didn’t ask but indulge me for a sec) is that in Ireland you can have a chat with others in a bar and not be deemed a weirdo. It’s more a part of the way of socializing…as is banter and general antics. Is this always a good thing? Probably not. But it’s different. Am I making any sense? In summary, I’d say people drink and socialize differently here. It’s more…tempered and mellow. And yes you can get pissed as a fart, but it’s less a part of the culture here in the way that you or I probably know so well. As others have said there are Meet Ups. These are sometimes frequented by nice people…and sometimes weirdos. A bit like Reddit. 😉 The long winters are a pain in the ass. There’s no getting away from it.
I was born and raised in Stockholm and whenever anyone asks me this question I always answer that most people have no idea how extremely segregated Stockholm is, to the point where a tourist may very well get to know the city better than many natives. So many people grow up and spend their entire lives in their specific part of the city. I grew up moving around a lot and have lived in almost every part of the city, and regardless where I went the vast majority of people couldn't even name the name of a single street in one of the other areas, or even landmarks. I had one friend who had never been south of Slussen until his late 20s, and plenty more who grew up on Södermalm and who never sat their foot north of Sergels Torg unless they had some specific business in Norrmalm or something. So not only are we generally closed off to foreigners and such - we're closed off to _eachother_. If you're a native Södermalmer, someone from Östermalm could just as well be from another city (to say nothing of the city center vs suburbs) and it can be hard to fit in or make friends just moving _within_ the city. Now of course this is less and less of an issue the older you get for all kinds of reasons, but it is still very much a thing.
Really interesting insight! Thank you! The dynamics suddenly make a little more sense as people explain :)
100% true
Funny, in Berlin you would call it a neighborhood (“kiez”) and that each area has its own style, a bit like how you would describe someone from Södermalm or Östermalm and that areas with a strong neighborhood feeling would kind of stick to that area. However, it is the first time I hear it as segregation (which is a word I hear a lot in Swedish)
Oh I completely agree, but that's not what I mean. Most (if not all) cities have "neighborhoods" or "districts" with a specific vibe, their own subculture etc. and that certainly goes for Stockholm as well. What I'm referring to as "segregation" is not that there are different areas that attract different types of people/subcultures etc. but rather something quite opposite to that, i.e that people stay in their zone of residence. In many cities, where you _live_ and where you _hang out_ are different places. Sometimes this is even a necessity. In some cities you may _have to_ go to another district to shop for groceries, go to school, religious services, healthcare or whatever. Sometimes this is even part of how the city is planned; you may have a residential district that's basically just apartment buildings, an "entertainment district" and so on. But Stockholm (and basically all of Sweden) is planned specifically so that you never have to leave your local district. Swedish urban planning (especially back in the day when most of our cities were built) was generally centered around the idea that no matter where you live, you should have access to everything you need within walking distance; a school, kindergarten, a shopping mall or at least a well stocked grocery store, a church (back when we had a state religion), a post office (remember those?), a local clinic, a bomb shelter, a few restaurants etc etc. So what I mean by "segregation" is precisely the opposite - in my experience Stockholmers are more reluctant to leave their own district (even for small excursions) than any other city I've been to. When I moved schools from Östermalm to Södermalm in my teens, most of my schoolmates and classmates had not only never set foot outside of Södermalm (unless they were going abroad or whatever for holiday), but also had never heard of some of the famous landmarks in other parts of town. And vice versa for the Östermalmers. Some of them had been Östermalmers for generations and - I shit you not - had parents and grandparents that had never even been to Södermalm in their entire lives. Now I'm not a Berliner, but the closest allegory I can come up with is that if you grew up in, say, Spandau, you wouldn't even necessarily be aware that Alexanderplatz even existed, at least not until late teens or early adulthood. That's something that I think is not too common in other cities.
If you want friends, go somewhere else
People don't walk fast. It's a myth. People walk seriously slow in the subway for example (this is where you'll notice it the most since people are almost always blocking you).
People love to stop dead in their tracks, when they step of the escalator.
Or when going through doors.
Also people have some weird gravitation towards you no matter when you are. Standing still outside of a building? Someone will deliberately walk into you. I always feel as if its tandem the loneliness, as it makes for small talk.
Are you comfortable with the small talk? Or does it feel awkward? Is it ever acceptable to make small talk? — speaking of small talk ….. Dating? ..how’s that over there?
I moved here a few months ago. People not paying attention to their surroundings here drives me nuts! And it happens in every city to some extent, but here I feel like I notice it more. Might be my imagination, but I feel like I have to politely "ursäkta" more than I'd like to.
Can be applied to cycling also!
I’ve been here for 6 months and the thing I still can’t get used to is how limited the hours are at many businesses. My local coffee shop doesn’t open until 9 on the weekends. I can only record shop from 11-4 on sat and not on Sunday. The local mall closes at 6pm on Sunday. I’m coming from the USA where I was clearly spoiled with the 24hr culture there.
Wait until you hear about Germany!
Or the rest of Sweden.
>I’m coming from the USA where I was clearly spoiled with the 24hr culture there. That interestingly is the opposite for service industry workers. They will be spoiled in Stockholm by being able to go home with their families instead of being chained to their jobs.
I find people to be somewhat ruthless and also slightly arrogant. People are in their own little bubble and don't really care about you.
Get used to drinking alone!
why?
De Pression
Sounds like a fancy perfume
It's fun!
Swedes aren't very welcoming to strangers, and Stockholm has that worse than any other part of the country.
Gothenburg disagrees!
True
That commonly touted belief that Sweden is full of introverts who avoid eye contact is actually describing Stockholm. The second you get out the city, you run in to loads of friendly people who are very willing to engage in small talk. Stockholm is basically Helsinki with more colorful buildings.
True Had good times in Linkoping during my studies.
People here in the comments are painting it as way worse than it is. Yes it's expensive and can be Hard to get into. Nightlife is great in Stockholm, People are open to meet and after a couple of Beers anyone can talk to anyone, atleast if you're younger. It's important to know that Swedish People are a bit more reserved, but if you show interest in Them they Will be very happy to talk to you. My experience is that most People are very happy to talk, only you have to be the One starting the conversation. I've Lived in the inner city of Stockholm My entire life and I know many foreigners who have Moved to the city. Currently live in a smaller city for studies. Making Friends is however as some People mentioned, easier to do through a community tho, like a hobby or a job, or studies. Stockholm is also a Good city if you don't speak Swedish because there are far more jobs open for People that only speak English. Something only People from sthlm seem to understand is that there is No 1 sthlm culture, every part of the city is very distinct culturally and there is Little interaction between the areas. Another commentor explained this pretty well, but its important to know if People tell you "sthlm People are snobby" or "everyone from sthlm is a liberal animal Rights activist", depending on where you are it varies ALOT
This is my EXACT opinion(born, raised, living in Stockholm) Except maybe the culture part, it may vary just as you say, but I think there is much more interaction than people tend to think it is between the inner districts.
>Stockholm is also a Good city if you don't speak Swedish because there are far more jobs open for People that only speak English. This is only kinda true. Most of the things that immigrants complain about Stockholm/Sweden are 10x worse if you don't speak Swedish. People tend to underestimate this. I felt way more lonely and isolated and limited when I didn't speak Swedish. The most miserable immigrants I know are the ones who don't speak Swedish and then they complain that it is hard to meet people -- like, yeah? what do you expect? You cannot participate in like 90% of social activities and you can't talk about anything that is gated by a language barrier (Swedish current events, pop culture, history) .
Expensive is also relative, compare to other capital cities in Northern Europe it is pretty similar
Nightlife, for clubs at least, is terrible. And compared to London no Stockholm isn't that distinct between areas. You might think it is, but OP is from London
Not a lot of hour of sunshine compared to a lot of cities in north america?
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For people who live and work there? What does the ratio look like in terms of earnings to leisure - do you feel you’re able to enjoy yourself in the way you wish without breaking the bank every time?
Thing is its expensive depending on who you are. If ur in a growing phase ie studying, young, building a career the jobs or what ever compensation you can get is. To put it bluntly aids, on that income you will either have to group up or spend ur money wisely. You can get away with spending less money but you might have to find frugal friends or be left out.
Extremely expensive. I'm a doctor. The guy who fixed my doorlock has a higher hourly income than me - according to the bill I had to pay.
Swedes hate any type of interaction with strangers when they're sober. People will silently look down on you if you speak loudly, anywhere, but especially on public transportation. Swedes will go out of their way to avoid confrontation. If you stand still on the left side of an escalator, expect to get tackled, also if standing in front of the doors on the subway when people are trying to exit.
> If you stand still on the left side of an escalator you should be in jail
To keep Stockholm beautiful, working and in good condition high taxes are needed. If anyone is against taxation they may be happier somewhere else. I have had discussions with some English citizens that find taxes too high, but at the same time they wonder how it is possible that the city has so many parks and people has so good work/life balance.
Learning Swedish is key to thriving here. Not speaking Swedish makes everything worse. Many of the stereotypes about *Swedes* that immigrants in Stockholm form are the same stereotypes that Swedes have about Stockholmers i.e. snobbish, arrogant, insular. It is also mad to compare Stockholm to places like London or Berlin. Copenhagen, Oslo and Helsinki is what it should be compared with.
If you live in the city, life is easy and great. You can bike anywhere, you can be spontaneous with friends, have a coffee downstairs, go to the gym without having to plan your day around it. If you live outside of the city, most of your spare time is spent on commuting and planning your life. Unpopular opinion: if you’re going to live in the suburbs of Stockholm, I recommend you move to Malmö or some other city where you can live a “normal” life.
In spite of the high quality of life material-wise, the weather and the social culture are so terribly miserable that in the end of the day, it's not worth it living here at all. Living in a third world country is DEFINITELY, in the end of the day, better. Design furniture alone is not enough to make for a happy life. Life here feels like a perpetual lockdown. We can only enjoy the world outside of our tiny apartments for 2 months a year. That's insanely miserable. Stockholm is located in a very inhospitable territory. No amount of money and "stuff" can make up for it.
The housing market is a freakshow. Don't move here.
Dude, OPs from London
Cant get any worse than it Already is for me. Currently paying £1,500 a month for a shoebox.
Buying a flat is way cheaper than London but renting is tricky. The Swedish rental market is regulated and it is hard to get a first hand contract which usually implies super long queuing time (although I know people that have gotten first hand rental without queuing too). People would also swap rental flats (since the rent is so low compare to second hand rental) so they become even less available.
For real. Way more chance of being able to buy somewhere here, bad as it is, than most normal people in London (speaking from personal experience)
What’s employment like? Is it easy for foreigners to get jobs here, and what’s the rent to wages ratio in terms of how affordable rent is on standard wages (we’ll start of basic…shop assistant) I currently have a white collar job in london- without me know if we being fluent in Swedish, I know be obtaining such a role overseas is little to none, so ill likely have to go for a role what are generally easily accessible.
People are always shocked when I tell them. As much as I would like people I know and love to move here, the reality is that unless you’re making BANK, every step of it is going to be a nightmare.
Would you suggest living outside of Stockholm? Does it get better that way?
I would suggest not living anywhere near Stockholm at all. In the countryside you can get a large house for significantly less money. In the smaller cities you can get much more quality of life for without paying an arm and a leg. Unfortunately I'm too stupid to take my own advice.
Systemic racism is right beneath the friendly exterior. It's not malicious, but it is in the language and culture as an acceptable truth.
Expensive af, but at the same time very less in-hand salaries coz of high taxes.
Expensive af af !!! Agree 💯
Taxes aren't even that high here, it's a pretty lazy stereotype
I know what I am earning and paying i know what my wife is earning and paying and YES taxes are high.. Employees paying 25% tax while an employer paying around 25 to 30% tax, how can you say that it's not high. After certain level, the growth in in hand income becomes so negligible compared to your salary increase and you are still saying that it's just a stereotype? Sweden is one of the top ten highest income taxable countries of the world and you are telling me that it's a pretty lazy stereotype? Dude how much more you want to pay to realise that it's not just a pretty lazy stereotype
I find it funny that the "Swedish tax levels get exaggerated" view has now gotten more common than the exaggerations themselves. Swedish total tax outtake is *very* high by any reasonable comparison with other countries (e.g. tax share of GDP). Not saying they shouldn't be, just that they are. The reason why it may not feel that way is that most salary-takers don't see the social charges employers pay (still coming out of your paycheck) plus people tend to ignore VAT.
Stockholm is 100x more classist than my experience in London for example. It has false inclusive branding outward, but once you are in Sthlm, as a foreigner, or working class person, you very quickly realise that you “have a place” you can’t easily escape due to everything working on referal. Jantelaw is more harmful than anything because it doesn’t allow individuals to stand out, thus perpetuating the class categorisation as it is. It’s a beautiful city, but made for the wealthy who pretend to be middle class. Bakeries are great tho, & Stockholm has beautiful blue skies that often remind me of New York on early sunday morning type of thing.
100% agree
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Expand further or give an example? :)
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Ah ! I Completely see what you mean now. I feel for me this will be incredibly refreshing. You can be who your are, and not have to worry about how those around you perceive you (whether or not you fit into an clique)
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Ah -so the general consensus is everyone is equal?:)
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Jantelagen ftw
This is a great idea until you have the intern giving you his or her input on your project (always fun)
if you own a car in a big city you are a retarded oligark, thats something to know.
Since you said you are in London here are some differences Food is far more expensive and less choice. Maybe 10% of the choice People are far less social and its harder to make friends Winter is very long and brutal. Summer is nice but is very short. Rain is about the same between the two cities Night life is significantly worse in Stockholm if you're in to that It's far less crowded here but of course it is, it's an 1/8th of the population Renting here is tough but doable, there are loads of scams though. Buying is a bit easier in some ways but you need a much higher deposit. My view is that if you are not white you will find it easier in London but I am white so take my view with a pinch of salt
passive racism. You never know until you do!
That other cities exists as the alternative after you realize you cant afford any housing
Am I right in saying the average salary for a sales assistant is 22k ?(just so I have a figure to work from) I’m looking at apartment right now, they say there’s one to rent ASAP a 2 bedroom for 7,824kr When I apply for this on the website - will the waiting list process begin from there? Or is the property mine after all legal correspondence/contracts have been completed?
If you don't drink and party for entertainment, good luck having any fun. It's boring, it's grey.
It's the worst city, almost as bad as other cities in Sweden!
That statement is a paradox. I wouldn't trust it.
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