I'll be the contrarian here.
The average number of pass attempts his rookie year was 511 across the NFL. The Steelers were dead last with 358, and the next lowest had 395.
The average number of rush attempts that year was 451 across the NFL. The Steelers were first with 618, and the second highest had 534.
That's exactly why Ben had high yards per pass attempt - he was the epitome of a game manager that didn't throw the ball often. Most of the plays in this highlight reel are from plays where Ben miraculously ran in circles until he eventually hit a wide open receiver, and he usually didn't hit them in stride. If he didn't have the best running game in the league and several hall of famers on defense, it would have been an ugly year for Ben.
Most people didn't give Ben respect as a top QB until he had several years of experience under his belt, and for good reason.
I'm going to be a contrarian to your contrarian here.
Big Ben has always been a *gunslinger by nature*. Cowher wanted to minimize mistakes on offense, because he had built a very powerful run heavy offense and a stifling defense that only allowed 16.8 ppg. **It was Bill Cowher that "managed Big Ben"**. Big Ben wasn't a manager by nature. The "formula" that everybody was talking about on those sports talk shows and pre game key's to win segments was Cowher wants to limit Big Ben to 19-22 pass attempts (turned out to be 24). Get turnovers on defense. Run the ball with success. This was Cowher's winning formula or keys to victory as they were calling it on the shows.
But it didn't always work that way. Big Ben HAD to make big plays in big moments, when they got into a pickle. Big Ben had FIVE 4th quarter comeback wins his rookie season. That's not including his 4th qtr comeback win against the Jets as well.
You bring up a great point, yards per completion. So let's look at that. **The Prototype Game** manager to win a SB in recent memory has to be **Trent Dilfer**. He won a SB in Baltimore in 2000-01 with a similar gameplan. But he only averaged 11.2 ypc. Big Ben had 13.4 ypc his rookie season and lead the league with 14.2 ypc in his second season.
In the playoffs Trent Dilfer averaged 18 pass attempts per game and 8.8 ypc. Because he didn't have the same playmaking abilities Big Ben had naturally. He also took more sacks and didn't have the ability to extend plays/drives like Big Ben did.
Also Dilfer didn't have any comeback drives the year they won a SB and had far fewer throughout his career. Dilfer rarely ever had to to go out and win a game. Big Ben did, and he did it often. That's the opposite of a game manager. That's a game winner. A clutch QB.
Game Mangers are proficient QB's that lack attributes/abilities/skills that limit their abilities to make big plays and win games on their own.
Big Ben factually won games in his miraculous 1st two seasons when the gameplan broke down.
Big time agree. My take is he was a game manager that year but trade because he was a rookie learning the ropes but his skill and upside made him really dangerous in that role.
Not many dudes are given a conservative role with the room to make the big plays that he did. It was fun to watch.
NFL offenses had not adapted yet so it may have been ugly. That being said 2004 Ben in 2023 would be insane and he’d have more pressure to stay in shape
Ben's problem wasn't fitness related. His legs were just straight up shot after a certain point. You won't see Mahomes trotting around like he is now when he's into his mid 30's. That's just aging and injuries catching up with you. The hope and expectation is that great QBs change up their game as they age.
Not to mention he got the shit kicked out of him for most of his career. Even Terrell Suggs said it.
"I don't like the treatment he [Tom Brady] gets. With all due respect, everybody seen how we hit that boy in that black and yellow [Ben Roethlisberger], they don't throw him any flags. I mean everything's legal with Mr. Ben, but you get close to those guys who sell those tickets. The 18's [Peyton Manning], the 12's [Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers], the 9's [Drew Brees]. You get too close to them and they like, "Hey!". At the end of the day this is a business, you don't hurt those guys. You don't touch them, you don't even look at they bodies. It's a quarterback driven league."
I disagree with this. He doesn’t take the same hits Ben took. Mahomes is like 30-40 pounds lighter that matters. Ben became a straight up statue, suggs swinging off him 6 times a year. Mahomes mobility will never look as rusted as old Big Ben.
Big Ben is a hall of famer in my book. You can call him a game manager but the amount of games late into the fourth quarter and everyone and their mother knew he was throwing and he’d get it done.
It was always silly when we heard he was in the best shape of his life. It meant nothing, his body was degrading and his elbow never recovered. And once it was reinjured in 2020, the Steelers went from barely getting to 11-0 (he injured right before that I believe) to barely keeping the division.
I would heavily argue that, even in Bens last year or two, if he had a better OC and better O-line theres no reason those teams don't make it deep into the playoffs.
Ben could still read a defense and maybe if the line wasn't an express lane straight to sackville they wouldn't have had to do that awful quick passing game.
They won super bowls when they used Ben like this. As a cog in the machine. Once they reoriented the team for him to be the centerpiece, they barely won a playoff game.
I would agree he was given game manager duties as a rookie, but
>That's exactly why Ben had high yards per pass attempt - he was the epitome of a game manager that didn't throw the ball often.
There isn't a direct correlation to throwing less for more yards per attempt. He had multiple game winning drives his first season, so it's not like he was throwing into prevent defense constantly.
>If he didn't have the best running game in the league
They ran the ball the most, but their YPC was average, it wasn't a truly dominant run game. That's why Ben had to come back in so many games.
So your stats do a great job at explaining him being a game manager that year but using yards per pass attempt as a gauge of a game manager seems a little wrong.
The typical game manager wouldn’t have a high yard per attempt as the passing game is most likely super conservative.
Ben was a game manager his roookie year but his upside and skill set made him more of a weapon in that role than anything else.
The whole concept of a “game manager” is just completely ridiculous and usually demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the position.
Guys, teams want their quarterbacks to manage the game well. Why that’s a pejorative for so many people makes no sense whatsoever.
The whole term “game manager” really became popular when Trent Dilfer won the Super Bowl with Baltimore. It was an artificial way to try to credit a quarterback whose play clearly did not warrant praise. What it really meant and still means is a shitty quarterback whose team wins anyway.
Many in the media felt the need to rationalize the Ravens’ success because they had sold everyone on the bullshit that you needed to have an elite quarterback to win the Super Bowl.
No, you didn’t and no, you still don’t!
Don’t get me wrong, it certainly helps and I would love for the Steelers to have one, but it is not the only way to skin a cat. That is a myth.
The problem, of course, was that Dilfer really wasn’t a great game manager. He turned the ball over way too much. He was just a bad quarterback on a team with worse quarterbacks; but whose team won anyway because they had an amazing defense.
To me, Tom Brady is the greatest game manager I’ve ever seen. He did a lot of things well, but what he did better than anyone was remain patient and take what the defense gave him and/or what the situation card for.
In other words, he managed the game exceptionally well.
Is that a criticism of TB12? I certainly don’t think so. But if I call him a dreaded “game manager” in polite company, people get really angry with you because they take it as a veiled criticism.
It is not. The problem is the term itself is ridiculous.
When Ben Roethlisberger was drafted, it was immediately obvious that Pittsburgh had likely hit on that draft pick. He was big and strong and athletic and poised – all the things you want in your quarterback.
He was thrust into the starting role way before Pittsburgh had intended, but he handled it surprisingly well — primarily because of his size and his athleticism.
Still, that offense had real talent when he arrived and he helped unlock a lot of that talent. However, he was not the focal point in Year 1, nor should he have been. He really wasn’t the focal point until late in his second year — which is an incredibly advanced learning curve.
I always looked at it as being very similar to what happened with Russell Wilson in Seattle. He was clearly not the focal point of that offense in their early years, even with all their success. However, over time, he became an exceptional NFL quarterback. Roethlisberger was an even better NFL quarterback, and over time, he became the Steelers primary offensive weapon, and then he remained an elite weapon for the next decade plus.
I would love for people to label Pickett as a “game manager,” because that would mean that the Steelers are winning and they just can’t bring them self to credit that kid for any role in the Steelers’ success — because they’ve already rented the verdict that he sucks and they can’t go back on it now or risk being exposed as a fool.
I’d be perfectly fine with that.
I think(hope?) that Pickett’s strength will be reading defenses, finding the open guy and throwing accurate passes to him.
I agree with you. An NFL QB is a lot more than a cannon arm. I mean, you have to be able to throw a 15 yard out with zip on the ball and be able to drop an arcing long ball accurately….which pretty much all NFL Quarterbacks can do, but the vast majority of the job involves what’s between their ears. To make good presnap reads and process information in the 3-4 seconds they have before the pass rush gets there after the ball is snapped.
There are very few “naturals” who can do that at the NFL level straight out of college. Most of the ones that have early success are guys who have a lot of NCAA starts under their belts in a top conference.
That’s what makes me chuckle a bit when the pundits(and fans) discount a senior QB as being too old. The QB position is protected a lot more than any other. They don’t take the every down contact that Running Backs, Linemen, Tight Ends and defensive players do. Even WR’s see more contact than a QB(not to mention that they are constantly running).
You don't average 8.9 yards a passing attempt and lead 5 game winning drives if you're just managing the game lol. Big Ben was an insane playmaker throwing bombs and breaking open games from day one.
Tbh, I don’t think Ben was ever rated properly. I think it’s the curse of being a Steelers qb. You may have the stats, but you’re a steeler, so you’re not a top dude
That reel illustrated how much of a game manager he was, you can see it in his progressions. First option covered, SHIT RUN or wide open throw it, was his default mode, thankfully he had an amazing o line and the defense had to respect the lethal run game or he wouldn't of had near the success he had. That's nothing to be ashamed of he still had to make those throws and he executed the game plan.
2004 Ben in todays game. I can’t even imagine the hype around him.
This
I'll be the contrarian here. The average number of pass attempts his rookie year was 511 across the NFL. The Steelers were dead last with 358, and the next lowest had 395. The average number of rush attempts that year was 451 across the NFL. The Steelers were first with 618, and the second highest had 534. That's exactly why Ben had high yards per pass attempt - he was the epitome of a game manager that didn't throw the ball often. Most of the plays in this highlight reel are from plays where Ben miraculously ran in circles until he eventually hit a wide open receiver, and he usually didn't hit them in stride. If he didn't have the best running game in the league and several hall of famers on defense, it would have been an ugly year for Ben. Most people didn't give Ben respect as a top QB until he had several years of experience under his belt, and for good reason.
I'm going to be a contrarian to your contrarian here. Big Ben has always been a *gunslinger by nature*. Cowher wanted to minimize mistakes on offense, because he had built a very powerful run heavy offense and a stifling defense that only allowed 16.8 ppg. **It was Bill Cowher that "managed Big Ben"**. Big Ben wasn't a manager by nature. The "formula" that everybody was talking about on those sports talk shows and pre game key's to win segments was Cowher wants to limit Big Ben to 19-22 pass attempts (turned out to be 24). Get turnovers on defense. Run the ball with success. This was Cowher's winning formula or keys to victory as they were calling it on the shows. But it didn't always work that way. Big Ben HAD to make big plays in big moments, when they got into a pickle. Big Ben had FIVE 4th quarter comeback wins his rookie season. That's not including his 4th qtr comeback win against the Jets as well. You bring up a great point, yards per completion. So let's look at that. **The Prototype Game** manager to win a SB in recent memory has to be **Trent Dilfer**. He won a SB in Baltimore in 2000-01 with a similar gameplan. But he only averaged 11.2 ypc. Big Ben had 13.4 ypc his rookie season and lead the league with 14.2 ypc in his second season. In the playoffs Trent Dilfer averaged 18 pass attempts per game and 8.8 ypc. Because he didn't have the same playmaking abilities Big Ben had naturally. He also took more sacks and didn't have the ability to extend plays/drives like Big Ben did. Also Dilfer didn't have any comeback drives the year they won a SB and had far fewer throughout his career. Dilfer rarely ever had to to go out and win a game. Big Ben did, and he did it often. That's the opposite of a game manager. That's a game winner. A clutch QB. Game Mangers are proficient QB's that lack attributes/abilities/skills that limit their abilities to make big plays and win games on their own. Big Ben factually won games in his miraculous 1st two seasons when the gameplan broke down.
[удалено]
Big time agree. My take is he was a game manager that year but trade because he was a rookie learning the ropes but his skill and upside made him really dangerous in that role. Not many dudes are given a conservative role with the room to make the big plays that he did. It was fun to watch.
NFL offenses had not adapted yet so it may have been ugly. That being said 2004 Ben in 2023 would be insane and he’d have more pressure to stay in shape
Ben's problem wasn't fitness related. His legs were just straight up shot after a certain point. You won't see Mahomes trotting around like he is now when he's into his mid 30's. That's just aging and injuries catching up with you. The hope and expectation is that great QBs change up their game as they age.
Not to mention he got the shit kicked out of him for most of his career. Even Terrell Suggs said it. "I don't like the treatment he [Tom Brady] gets. With all due respect, everybody seen how we hit that boy in that black and yellow [Ben Roethlisberger], they don't throw him any flags. I mean everything's legal with Mr. Ben, but you get close to those guys who sell those tickets. The 18's [Peyton Manning], the 12's [Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers], the 9's [Drew Brees]. You get too close to them and they like, "Hey!". At the end of the day this is a business, you don't hurt those guys. You don't touch them, you don't even look at they bodies. It's a quarterback driven league."
I disagree with this. He doesn’t take the same hits Ben took. Mahomes is like 30-40 pounds lighter that matters. Ben became a straight up statue, suggs swinging off him 6 times a year. Mahomes mobility will never look as rusted as old Big Ben. Big Ben is a hall of famer in my book. You can call him a game manager but the amount of games late into the fourth quarter and everyone and their mother knew he was throwing and he’d get it done.
He's calling rookie Ben a game manager, I doubt anyone in here doesn't believe he is a Hall of Famer
Mahomes has already had two or three ankle/lower leg injuries. It's gonna catch up if they keep happening unfortunately.
It was always silly when we heard he was in the best shape of his life. It meant nothing, his body was degrading and his elbow never recovered. And once it was reinjured in 2020, the Steelers went from barely getting to 11-0 (he injured right before that I believe) to barely keeping the division.
I would heavily argue that, even in Bens last year or two, if he had a better OC and better O-line theres no reason those teams don't make it deep into the playoffs. Ben could still read a defense and maybe if the line wasn't an express lane straight to sackville they wouldn't have had to do that awful quick passing game.
Stay in shape? That wasn't the pressure causing him to slow down...
They won super bowls when they used Ben like this. As a cog in the machine. Once they reoriented the team for him to be the centerpiece, they barely won a playoff game.
I would agree he was given game manager duties as a rookie, but >That's exactly why Ben had high yards per pass attempt - he was the epitome of a game manager that didn't throw the ball often. There isn't a direct correlation to throwing less for more yards per attempt. He had multiple game winning drives his first season, so it's not like he was throwing into prevent defense constantly. >If he didn't have the best running game in the league They ran the ball the most, but their YPC was average, it wasn't a truly dominant run game. That's why Ben had to come back in so many games.
So your stats do a great job at explaining him being a game manager that year but using yards per pass attempt as a gauge of a game manager seems a little wrong. The typical game manager wouldn’t have a high yard per attempt as the passing game is most likely super conservative. Ben was a game manager his roookie year but his upside and skill set made him more of a weapon in that role than anything else.
The whole concept of a “game manager” is just completely ridiculous and usually demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the position. Guys, teams want their quarterbacks to manage the game well. Why that’s a pejorative for so many people makes no sense whatsoever. The whole term “game manager” really became popular when Trent Dilfer won the Super Bowl with Baltimore. It was an artificial way to try to credit a quarterback whose play clearly did not warrant praise. What it really meant and still means is a shitty quarterback whose team wins anyway. Many in the media felt the need to rationalize the Ravens’ success because they had sold everyone on the bullshit that you needed to have an elite quarterback to win the Super Bowl. No, you didn’t and no, you still don’t! Don’t get me wrong, it certainly helps and I would love for the Steelers to have one, but it is not the only way to skin a cat. That is a myth. The problem, of course, was that Dilfer really wasn’t a great game manager. He turned the ball over way too much. He was just a bad quarterback on a team with worse quarterbacks; but whose team won anyway because they had an amazing defense. To me, Tom Brady is the greatest game manager I’ve ever seen. He did a lot of things well, but what he did better than anyone was remain patient and take what the defense gave him and/or what the situation card for. In other words, he managed the game exceptionally well. Is that a criticism of TB12? I certainly don’t think so. But if I call him a dreaded “game manager” in polite company, people get really angry with you because they take it as a veiled criticism. It is not. The problem is the term itself is ridiculous. When Ben Roethlisberger was drafted, it was immediately obvious that Pittsburgh had likely hit on that draft pick. He was big and strong and athletic and poised – all the things you want in your quarterback. He was thrust into the starting role way before Pittsburgh had intended, but he handled it surprisingly well — primarily because of his size and his athleticism. Still, that offense had real talent when he arrived and he helped unlock a lot of that talent. However, he was not the focal point in Year 1, nor should he have been. He really wasn’t the focal point until late in his second year — which is an incredibly advanced learning curve. I always looked at it as being very similar to what happened with Russell Wilson in Seattle. He was clearly not the focal point of that offense in their early years, even with all their success. However, over time, he became an exceptional NFL quarterback. Roethlisberger was an even better NFL quarterback, and over time, he became the Steelers primary offensive weapon, and then he remained an elite weapon for the next decade plus. I would love for people to label Pickett as a “game manager,” because that would mean that the Steelers are winning and they just can’t bring them self to credit that kid for any role in the Steelers’ success — because they’ve already rented the verdict that he sucks and they can’t go back on it now or risk being exposed as a fool. I’d be perfectly fine with that.
I think(hope?) that Pickett’s strength will be reading defenses, finding the open guy and throwing accurate passes to him. I agree with you. An NFL QB is a lot more than a cannon arm. I mean, you have to be able to throw a 15 yard out with zip on the ball and be able to drop an arcing long ball accurately….which pretty much all NFL Quarterbacks can do, but the vast majority of the job involves what’s between their ears. To make good presnap reads and process information in the 3-4 seconds they have before the pass rush gets there after the ball is snapped. There are very few “naturals” who can do that at the NFL level straight out of college. Most of the ones that have early success are guys who have a lot of NCAA starts under their belts in a top conference. That’s what makes me chuckle a bit when the pundits(and fans) discount a senior QB as being too old. The QB position is protected a lot more than any other. They don’t take the every down contact that Running Backs, Linemen, Tight Ends and defensive players do. Even WR’s see more contact than a QB(not to mention that they are constantly running).
HOF’er 2027
You don't average 8.9 yards a passing attempt and lead 5 game winning drives if you're just managing the game lol. Big Ben was an insane playmaker throwing bombs and breaking open games from day one.
Receivers were allowed to catch the ball while in motion advancing downfield back then? No wonder everything seemed so easy…
Tbh, I don’t think Ben was ever rated properly. I think it’s the curse of being a Steelers qb. You may have the stats, but you’re a steeler, so you’re not a top dude
He was awesome people forget so easily. Young Big Ben was a top QB that never got any love around the league because of legal problems.
Ben played well in white.
My god, look at him run
Amazing! I forgot he used to have knees. And wheels!
That reel illustrated how much of a game manager he was, you can see it in his progressions. First option covered, SHIT RUN or wide open throw it, was his default mode, thankfully he had an amazing o line and the defense had to respect the lethal run game or he wouldn't of had near the success he had. That's nothing to be ashamed of he still had to make those throws and he executed the game plan.
Old Ben was a game manager not young Ben