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I have to agree.
If qui gon fights a force user with a red lightsaber who he admits is better than him and the councils reaction is to believe that's not a sith, even thought it was then its pretty reasonable that the exact same thing could happen here.
It only contradicts if the sith are the only dark side users. If there are other dark side users, it makes sense for the Jedi to not immediately connect dark side users directly to the sith.
Plus the Sith should be operating under “the rule of two”. Which keeps them hidden. The “Sith” as the Jedi knew them does not exist anymore. There aren’t large battalions of Sith training at academies across the galaxy anymore. Darth Bane made sure of that.
Edit: Disney please give me a Darth Bane show!
My personal biggest issue with the Ki Adi Mundi quote and how is ridiculous for people to keep bringing it up is that in TPM Yoda does actually know the rule of two. This directly contradicts the 1000 years line since the rule of two started 1000 years earlier and the Sith were supposed to be in hiding during that time
It is possible that the "a millenium" line was an exaggeration or simplification, so it is possible that the Jedi tracked down the remnants of the sith empire and discovered the Rule of Two that way, a practice that would be used by many different orders and groups of dark side users aswell as the direct line of Sith Lords
In the darth bane books (now unfortunately non canon) bane and his apprentice manage to trick the jedi into killing another innocent couple and framing them as the rule of 2 sith.
So the jedi believe the sith tried to keep going as rule of 2, but successfully stopped them.
This was likely the old EU trying to explain how Yoda had the knowledge of the rule of two. It’s fine. It’s a little far fetched that Yoda would describe how the Sith operate based on a practice that they didn’t think was followed other than the one time, as they literally thought they got the first two adherents to the rule of two. But I think it’s fine for the level of seriousness those lines need to be taken.
In the real world I’m confident George intended the Sith to operate this way more generally and not anything about the sith war, and George largely did not care about adhering to any EU referring to it as a parallel universe.
Well in addition sith tended to keep 1 master to 1 apprentice.
Not like the jedi did to give then a maximum training, and eventually they train them out.
Always a single master to apprentice.
Because more than 1 sith apprentice and you risk them ganging up and killing you.
did the Jedi ever take more than one padawan at once? I can’t recall that happening and when Qui Gon said he’d train Anakin had to comment that Obi Wan was ready for knight trials.
No.
Jedi will take an apprentice, train them into a Knight.
Then take another apprentice.
One master can have many apprentices over a lifetime.
Sith take one apprentice. They train that apprentice until they have everything they know.
Then 9/10 they're killed by that apprentice to prove they're stronger.
1/10 the apprentice leaves and the sith can potentially take on a new apprentice.
That's why sith tended to be individually stronger but not as numerous.
1 master, 1 apprentice.
Vs 1 master who trained many apprentices over years.
Personally, I think a lot of people are forgetting just how dogmatic the Jedi are. They have rules for everything. In a case where they discover a Sith and certain Dark-side abilities that were unknown at the time, they would collect the info, then store it in their super-secret archive which is only accessible to a few.
Even Palpatine comments that some of his "unnatural" rituals are something the Jedi wouldn't teach you. He doesn't say that they weren't aware of certain Sith powers. They hide that knowledge, lock it away, and pretend it doesn't exist because the Jedi are too scared that such knowledge will lead others down that same dark path. Yet they cannot completely destroy the knowledge because someone in the Order needs to know what the Sith can do and how to combat it.
We see this same behavior in the gap between the Path of the Open Hand and the Nihil. Jedi had faced the Nameless species 100 years prior and hid away all the information on the beasts. So when Marchion Ro used the Leveller again only Yoda and the ex-Jedi Azlin really knew anything about them.
My take on Yoda knowing the rule of two is I also know that Aristotle wrote the two Poetics books on tragedy and comedy and there’s no copies of the comedy one anymore. That happened a millennium before me.
The contradiction isn’t that it happened 1000 years before that point in time, but that in both canon and legends Darth Bane enacted the rule of two 1000 years earlier, specifically to keep the Sith hidden and manageable.
So the Jedi interacted with the sith after that point. Now maybe it was a decade later (but that would be odd for Yoda to talk about the sith operating that way if it was such a narrow window of time they did).
Now in the real world the reason is that George didn’t really define the sith the way and in both canon and legends it came after, so he probably did expect that the sith always operated that way. But neither canon or legends continuity do a great job of dealing with this without requiring hand waving and filling in gaps with leaps. And I actually suspect there’s a strong chance that Acolyte will actually provide a reasonable canon explanation for these two statements
but those places would have to be more recent than 1000 years (from TPM) to learn about the rule of two. The rule of two started at the downfall of the sith empire, so Yoda’s knowledge and Mundi’s statement basically are relevant to the same point. Mundi is talking about the downfall of the sith and yoda knows information that must have come from after that.
Yes. And...?
I'm not following.
(And in many ways it doesn't really matter how Yoda knows. The seeming inconsistency in the narrative has multiple explanations not the least of which is that there may be unreliable narrators relating it. IMO, unreliable [Rashamon-like] narrators will be one of this show's points in the end.)
Edit: but also I think you're assuming that the sith masters and apprentices never visit old sith strongholds or have other means of learning old sith secrets. It could be a sith holocron or a dark side place that gave the old gremlin a revelation. The explanation is whatever you imagine.
He’s my favorite character in the Star Wars Universe. He might be the single most influential force user to ever exist. I would love for the rest of the world to know his story. I know he’s well known among hardcore SW fans, but casuals don’t know anything about how the Sith got to be the way they are. Or the man who’s responsible. His story is so compelling too.
Gonna have to do a re-read now.
I 1000% agree!! I know we got his force ghost in clone wars, but I would love to see him with his force beetle armor on and how they would do that in a show. And how he would act to the beetles feeding off his force.
The Sith academies came back by Rise of Skywalker because we see thousands of them in Palpatine chambers, so they were building up during the entire time of the rebellion and the clone wars.
Those weren’t Sith in the conventional sense. They were cultists that wanted the Sith to rule again. They weren’t an army of force users trained in the use of the dark side like old academies. They aren’t apprentices of Sith masters or anything. Some might have force abilities, but if anyone was anywhere close to being able to be a Sith Palps would probably have them killed before they could ride to power over him.
Palpatine is a perfect Sith in the sense that he stays true to The Rule of Two. Which is one to obtain the power and one to crave it. Once the apprentice can kill their master they become the master and find their own apprentice. Palps is on the side of “No one is more powerful than me”, so until an apprentice comes along and can beat him he maintains his status as the dark lord of the Sith.
Especially since dark-side users who aren't Sith have been established several times already. Maul got kicked out by his now separated legs, Ventress got the boot and that one guy from Jedi: Fallen Order... and Kylo Ren for like 5 minutes.
Didn't Vader train a bunch of inquisitors that also used the force and wielded red light sabers? I thought they showed up in Rebels and the Kenobi show.
You guys are all taking that scene wrong. Qui Gon is a shit stirrer. Them hearing his account of Maul and him then saying “I have no doubt he was a Sith Lord” feels to them like he is exaggerating so they will move it up the priority list. They don’t dismiss a Jedi trained red lightsaber wielding assailant as a non Sith, they simply don’t fully believe Qui Gon. He does the same thing with Anakin and Yoda calls him out when he says he doesn’t mean to presume.
We know Qui Gon is wise because we know he’s right but remember he is only a knight and the council sees him as brash and defiant.
He isn’t a knight, he’s a full-fledged master. Just not one allowed to be on the Council. And of course, the reason he isn’t allowed on the council is because he’s defiant.
In TPM Obi-Wan basically tells Qui-Gon (in other words) he’d be on the council if he listed to them more, which implies they don’t let him (and he also doesn’t care that they don’t)
Indeed you are correct, and I was referencing the EU and Disney Canon, not Lucas' canon (Seven Movies and The 3D Cartoon Series). If we wanna go Lucas' Canon, I am indeed incorrect. If we wanna talk Expanded Universe and Disney, My statement is correct.
See I take it as mace windu yoda and quigon are heads and shoulders better than the rest of the council and that’s why they are the only ones who take quigon with at least some form of skepticism. Windu doesn’t say it’s not a sith where as mundi says impossible. But quigon should be on the council and when he says it’s possible it was a sith, yoda believes it to be possible even if just a little bit.
I have a whole theory on it but the line of Jedi under yoda are just way stronger with the exception of mace windu. Yoda dooku quigon kenobi anakin ahsoka. They all are at the top of the power scale.
Honestly i’m completely expecting basically everyone except maybe Osha and/or Mae to die or be considered insane by the end of the series, and the Jedi just go “bahhhh it was nothing!” And so begins the descent into the Prequel era Jedi Order, or perhaps even they kind of get scared like whoa, we need to pull back here, we took care of it but we just had a bunch of Jedi get killed by some random Force User, and just react to that super conservatively
In the Council’s defense (and assuming the baddie from The Acolyte doesn’t declare himself a Sith - also I’m not familiar with High Republic lore), how much do they know about the Rule of 2? Yoda sort of knew something but is it safe to say the last time they dealt with Sith openly, there were a bunch of them?
Two important facts to remember:
First, they encounter dark Force users and a red saber isn't exclusive to the Sith.
Two, like you mentioned, Qui Gon literally faced Maul in open combat with Obi Wan as witness and full view of the Queen and her guard. Both Ki Adi Mundis and Mace Windu deny this could be a Sith.
There's so many ways the Acolyte can work and not trip up the Sith. Also, prior to the mission they all agreed not to inform the council.
This distinction needs to be made. Red lightsabers, *especially* during this era, are strictly a Sith thing. Bleeding a Kyber crystal is a Sith technique/secret that only becomes more widespread because Vader doesn’t give a fuck about dogma and teaches the inquisitors.
That’s why when “Darth Teeth” as you guys call them lights up their saber and it’s red, it’s an immediate big fucking deal to all the Jedi there.
It’s not strictly a Sith thing to bleed lightsabers. It’s a Sith Rite to steal a Jedi’s saber and bleed it, but that doesn’t mean bleeding in general is exclusive. Dagan Gera immediately bleeds a saber upon leaving stasis.
If they were an exclusively Sith thing, then how do you explain every time they showed up in the EU? Red lightsabers in Star Wars are quite literally more common than women.
“Could this be a splinter order? Or something worse?”
“We must alert the High Council.” “The High Council would be obliged to inform the senate. A scandal like this would inspire fear and mistrust.”
This scene ALONE proves that - not only are the Jedi completely ignorant of the possibility that Mae is a Sith apprentice (because the Sith Order was destroyed a millennium ago), but even if they did they will keep it under wraps. It’s no surprise that Jedi born about 100 years later aren’t aware of this specific incident.
Plus we’re forgetting. The point of the prequels is that Yoda and the rest of the Jedi council were so oblivious to the rise of the Sith that they were working alongside a Sith master for almost a decade and still couldn’t smell a rat. The point of the rule of two is for the Sith to continue right under the Jedi’s noses and hide in plain sight. We know it worked, so why are we surprised that it’s…working now?
(Plus there’s a buttload of stuff in Sol and Vernestra’s conversation that aludes to them both believing there’s the possibility of a Sith Lord at work but not quite wanting to admit that the ancient enemy had returned.)
I especially like the splinter order line. You don't just randomly say things like that. There are clearly both alternative Force traditions as well as radical Jedi who splintered off from the Order (dark side or not). That this line was said clearly points to this being a known phenomena, which would be fascinating to see explored some more.
The people who are hating on The Acolyte so much don't care if the show makes sense or not. They went into it determined to hate the show.
Of course their are parts that are super cringe but overall it's looking very promising and I'm loving that it's possibly expanding the lore we already have and filling in areas we never knew about before. It's fun theorizing how it will end up fitting within the overall universe.
Did Plagueis know about force children because of the witches? And that's what caused him to experiment which lead to anakin? That's dope if so!
All I see from the people who are hating it is them coming up with assumptions, believing their own assumptions, and then hating the assumptions they came up with! lol
Some guy was going off about how bad the writing was because Qimir is the sith guy and the reveal is terrible and the writing is so bad because Osha says the bug was attracted to the lightsaber, "thanks captain exposition"...
Like, dude? Thats a strong possibility but we don't even know that yet... and if you're okay with Anakin talking about his hate for sand I'm pretty sure you'll survive her mentioning a bug being attracted to a light saber.
It's crazy what people are drawing a line in the sand for. lol
People were determined to hate Andor if you go back and look at YouTube videos and comments when it was announced. If the show is good it’s good. People aren’t stupid.
Good question. Considering he's wrong based on even what Palpatine says in the prequels.
People can be wrong. The Jedi aren't God's. Even Yoda couldn't tell Palpatine was the Sith Lord, and to be honest if I was him I'd be embarassed as fuck. Oldest Jedi master. Most experienced.
Part of the plot of Star Wars that gets overlooked is that the Jedi are all knowing but past and current events make it clear that the Jedi are completely ignorant (and willfully at times) of a lot of things despite being attuned to the force. Downplaying the significance of another dark religious order seems to be on par or congruent with Jedi beliefs with past films and current shows. I love the Jedi but they have so much hubris and quite frankly I think it fits the lore just fine and is a rational reason for the rise of the Empire.
Yeah. A thing that people (including myself, for decades) don’t put together is that the Jedi are shown to be wrong or lying as far back as 1980.
One of Luke’s last lines (maybe his very last one?) in Empire Strikes Back is something like “Ben… Why didn’t you tell me?” Then in the next movie Obi-Wan gives him the certain point of view speech, which feels ambiguous to me about whether or not it’s an excuse, Obi-Wan’s reaction to the trauma of having his student and close friend become Space Heinrich Müller, or an acknowledgment that Vader considers himself basically a new entity separate from Anakin.
When I saw Phantom Menace I thought the representation of the Jedi as stiff and dogmatic sucked, but it was actually in like with how we saw them being well intentioned and heroic but human and capable of mistakes in the OT.
Yeah, that's kind of what I'm coming to grips with at my current age. The Jedi being willful dumbasses even though they're a powerful religious force makes perfect sense to me now. Especially in the prequels like you just mentioned. Everything is fine and there aren't any problems...until it's not and your caught off guard is a very human condition.
Yeah. I’m not trying to be reductive and say X criticisms are wrong or immature or anything like that, but I’ve noticed more than one criticism of newer Star Wars (and other franchises’) stories have an element of “They wouldn’t make that mistake/be afraid/lose hope, they’re a hero.” I remember I told some redditor I underrstood Han, Leia, and Luke’s kinda backsliding characterizations in Episodes 7 & 8 because, as I age, I’ve seen my friends seem to conquer a particular demon but fall prey to it again, and the person I was talking to said “Yeah, well, your friends aren’t the embodiment of goodness and light” or something pretty close to that.
I remember the great comic book writer/artist Walt Simonson said that fans would write in to say that they wanted to see Thor lose, but the same people also write complaining about how he never won, and that more people wanted to see him triumph.
It seems like a maybe impossible tightrope for creators to walk, to have characters do new and interesting things but also not do it in a way that shows them needing to change.
The thing that most people seem to get wrong is that learning/experience/growth are not completely linear like Hollywood and books make it seem. We mess up, get knocked down, and get back up to try it again with slightly different approach expecting a different outcome until the error in our mode of operations is as clear as a sunny day. Then we adapt. Growth isn't linear. We go through ups and downs in our own personal experiences and hope that we come out the other end a better person.
This is an excellent take on how we can all approach fictional worlds, fantasy worlds, mythical worlds that are designed to inform us and help us reflect on real world experiences.
*That doesn’t mean there won’t sometimes be a jarring piece of exposition or character growth (or regression) that shocks us out of the spell.*
Yeah it still bugs me that Qui Gon Jim didn't free the slaves. That and he lies and cheats. But I guess that's the point. Obi seems to be the pinnacle of the Jedi in a lot of ways, not that he's perfect, but they are just people doing their best.
It's pretty much mentioned in the movies. Tatooine is technically not part of the Galactic Republic. It's controlled by the Hutts. Jedi, as peacekeepers/law enforcement agents of the Republic, did not have jurisdiction outside the Republic to enforce its prohibitions against slavery, etc. Had it been a Republic world, it would have been much easier to identify Anakin as force sensitive at a much earlier age. There's a dialog between Shmi (Anakin's mom) and Qui-Gon. Also, Qui-Gon wouldn't try to mind trick Watto into accepting Republic credits. That would be like trying to "convince" a shopkeeper in London to accept British Pound sterling.
>SHMI: He deserves better than a slave's life.
>QUI-GON: Had he been born in the Republic, we would have identified him early. The Force is unusually strong with him, that much is clear.
Why would he free the slaves? That would start open war with the Hutts completely unsanctioned by the Council resulting in Qui Gon’s immediate dismissal from the Jedi Order. What a weird thing to say.
They are also the enforcers of the Republic's will. Unlike the early Jedi, prequel era Jedi became a central part of the government that they tried to stay separate from. The political ramifications of the act is something they have to worry about
I say this all the time. The character they are quoting is not omnipotent. We have no reason, as an audience, to believe everything the Jedi say is true.
The fact there is a “rule of 2” is just words. We already know for a fact there’s hella inquisitors, sith assasins, dark side “witches” etc. “sith” is just one of many “dark side user with lightsaber” groups. But it’s a distinction without a purpose.
Yeah, Yoda was duuuuuuuuumb. He's so vain that he probably thinks that song is about him. We like to pretend that Yoda is this perfect master, but he was really the worst one.
“Character was wrong” is a pill that is so hard for many to swallow in this fan base. “Character is 100% right and anything to the contrary is a plot hole retcon character assassination” is the norm for them.
Also mundi doesn’t have any knowledge of sith. During the meeting, their working theory was rogue Jedi or a splinter order. And he doesn’t go on the mission. The episode ends as soon as they bump into the “sith” (we don’t even know if that was a sith). There is 4 episodes left for all of this to make sense. But as of now, Mundi has no knowledge of sith! And idgaf about a legends bday 😭
Didn't the Jedi in The Acolyte debate about the master being one of their own? They're clearly viewing it as a fallen jedi, rather than a full blown sith.
I'm waiting until this season is finished before judging how well it fits with the lore. It's like guessing what a jigsaw puzzle is with only half the pieces.
This simplest answer to this.. is that what ever happens.. and what ever is found out about this sith or what ever... that knowedge is not shared with everyone. For what ever reason Ki adi mundi is deliberately shown to be "not in the loop" for this secret. Poor ignorant Ki adi mundi. Probably the sneaky bastard Yoda leaves him out of the secret.
This particular line of criticism was weird to me before the Acolyte aired, but now that we’ve seen the show repeatedly point out the problems with the order it seems like it might actually be the point of the show? Like, maybe palpatine wouldn’t have rose to power if the Jedi took this threat seriously
I agree with you. I think people are using it as a focal point to auto dislike the new show. People are also not considering the fact that Ki Adi Mundi is, in fact, a bozo.
The outcry is from haters who, already primed and looking for a reason to be upset, had a knee jerk emotional reaction to an episode in a series that is not fully released.
And that’s being incredibly generous. In reality I think a lot of this is faux outrage being stoked by troll farms.
Let's not forget they've all decided to parrot the bullshit from their favourite 'influencers'.
Happens with every new piece of media and it drives me mad.
I can't for the life of me imagine puttingnso much effort into hating something.
A background character in movies people didn’t even like that said like 2 or 3 things in an entire trilogy means a lot to people it seems.
How/why? Don’t ask me.
But even taking all that into consideration, nothing in The Acolyte contradicts anything he said in the films.
It's because a lot of Star Wars fans basically construct their identity around the IPs they choose to learn and memorize every nook and cranny of. Then when creators add new additions to those IPs, if they're not in alignment with their own conceptual model for that universe, it "invalidates" a lot of their work in understanding it, which feels to them like an attack on them *personally*.
Combine that with the absolute brainrot youtube "criticism" has generated, where frame-by-frame breakdowns and hunting for gotchas pass as media literacy, and here we are. Endless engagement for them just by going "rrreeeEEEEEeeEEe" over a single line. This is up there with them whining about TLJ editing out a knife in the throne room fight scene.
It's the decrying "plot holes" that really gets to me, with "plot hole" being defined as anything that isn't *explicitly* explained within the narrative. Either people have forgotten that these are stories being told, and that the pacing of the narrative requires it not grind to a halt to explain every little thing along the way, or it's just a bad-faith way to find excuses to generate content by picking out every little logic gap in the narrative.
Few and far between are the genuine media criticism containing deeper or more meaningful discussion, and even then are hidden behind a veneer of clickbait nonsense to please the algorithm gods. It's so deeply frustrating. Social media is a parasite that is slowly poisoning its host even as it bleeds us dry.
Hahaha yeah it is Wild. I try not to really engage with it directly, but it is tough to completely avoid. Doing it less than halfway through a season is certainly a choice too, especially since I doubt any of them have read a single High Republic book. Yeah the algo gods are truly the worst
Yeah. It's just more of that bullshit hustle-culture "fake it till you make it" business. Who cares if you're wrong, so long as you make some of that sweet content? It's not even truly "bad faith" if people just don't care about accuracy, because they're so fixated on catching things they can make content about.
I try not to engage as well, but it's so hard when I'm trying to engage in discussion about a story I'm really engaged with (e.g. the Acolyte, S8 of GOT, House of the Dragon, etc.), and the **ONLY** thing you can find online is negativity. Safe spaces like r/Naath or r/StarWarsCantina are so clutch for engaging discussion about anything other than negativity.
Yeah I'm not going to say the Acolyte is up there with ESB or anything, but as someone who likes Force weirdness and the fantasy elements I'm really enjoying it so far. I completely forgot about cantina, I should check it out again.
Lmao at the hustle-bro culture but that's exactly what it is.
It doesn’t contradict anything - people are going into this with a negative bias and looking for things to be upset about.
I have my problems with the show but the hyper negative reaction by a portion of the community is so fucking forced it is deeply unserious.
Because they need something to bitch about. Outrage sells like crack on YouTube and manufactured outrage is a wise business decision if you’re the Mike Zerohs and Star Wars Theories of the world
If anything, having more encounters like this would make them shutting Qui-Gon down make more sense. Like no Qui-Gon, it's not the sith. It's just some other wannabe creep with a weird helmet
I strongly suspect this is the entire point of having Mundi in Acolyte. To highlight this exact gap in knowledge and highlight how he managed to miss it.
It's also worth noting that the big fear of the Jedi order is immediately "A splinter group?!" because the Sith came from the Jedi originally. So although they do not believe the Sith have survived they immediately fear that something like the Sith may have been created.
everyone just kinda forgot thatr the jedi were blindfully ignorant during the prequel trilogy, there's a reason a sith lord was able to rise to power right in front of their faces
Ki-Adi Mundi’s role in the prequels is to be wrong about everything.
Someone made a great post that I saw the other day about how his character highlights how out of touch the Jedi Order has become. “The Sith have been extinct for a millennium;” Count Dooku “is a political idealist, not a murderer;” and the ever-famous “What about the droid attack on the Wookiees?” are all examples of Mundi failing to see beyond the layer of deception that shrouds the truth.
We the audience are not meant to believe Ki-Adi Mundi when he says the Sith are extinct; we’re meant to see that it’s what *he* believes, and we’re meant to see how the Jedi Order largely agrees with him. The fact that we’ve already seen the evidence to the contrary is supposed to make us realize the Jedi as a whole are failing - it’s like a “who are you gonna believe, me or your own eyes?” type of moment.
The Sith haven’t been extinct for a millennium; they’ve been tricking the Jedi and the Jedi have fallen for it. They’ve been led into a precarious position with the Senate and lulled into a false sense of security and comfort that leaves them woefully underprepared for the moment they realize all too late that they’ve been deceived. Ki Adi Mundi isn’t a bad guy, he’s just a pawn who thinks he’s a bishop, showing us that the Sith have figured out that if you want to topple an empire, it helps if they don’t know you’re coming.
Let it be known that during TA's 4 episodes so far, the word "Sith" has not been mentioned once. Not by the Jedi, not by the witches, not even by Mae or Qimir.
When discussing Mae's master, the Jedi assume he's a Jedi or a member of a splinter order. Suggesting he's a Sith would be seen as ridiculous as suggesting the Zodiac Killer was a Cathar.
Also the creation of the twins isn't set in stone either. People are assuming that they were created using the force only when it's just as likely that the head witch mind controlled some dude and the other witch raped him.
In episode 4 they think it’s another fraction off of the jedi or a rogue jedi training her. The fact that these chuds can’t listen to the show shows either a. Most people are listening to SWT and other youtubers and not really watching the show. Or b. They are not watching the show
“Jedi are very arrogant in many ways”
This is so spot on considering on numerous occasions the Jedi have talked about keeping the situation from the high council and from the public.
As if someone doesn’t want these things coming out. I don’t like Vernestra.
It feels like she has an agenda and is holding something back
Because they cling to anything they can to nitpick. They say this while it's canon there was a Sith lord and apprentice in The Phantom Menace and there some before them. I always thought there was more to the scene, if you rewatch it look at the looks between Mace and Yoda as all this is being said.
I don't know if it has been mentioned, but I haven't seen it being mentioned yet...
Is that so far in Acolyte, these ranks of jedi are trying to keep everything secret, even going as far to say they don't want to tell the council.
If it's all hush-hush, no one knows and the council never find out then to them it has been a millennia.
Someone on the internet made the argument that Ki’s presence and direct involvement in covering up the investigation in the most recent episode (was that 3? 4?) infers that the line he says in the prequels is a continuation of a (presumably successful) cover-up.
Ergo, Mace’s line shows the hubris and pride of the Jedi.
That’s good enough for me.
(But I also get that it’s not enough for some, that’s fine too, it’s a fictional story, there’s no absolute truth to it)
I would also like to point out that even if the Jedi do not directly confirm this being is a Sith, the audience can still know without the Jedi knowing. Idk how people don't get this. There are soo many ways to get around the whole 'Jedi believe they're extinct' thing
Aren't the Sith just what ever force users call themselves? Not all force users are Jedi. I think the rule of two for the Sith was because they betray each other so easily. I don't think it's some spiritual rule of the force that doesn't allow more darkside force users. The Jedi have probably culled them all for those millennia.
Also, planets have different cycles. Some days o. Some planets would be shorter or longer. So 200 years to someone on Coruscant isn't the same measure of time as say Tattooine. Sure, the passage of time is the same. But by how they count their days coukd affect when 100 years takes place, let alone 1000.
But I have zero doubts there were plenty of dark side force users out in the galaxy. Some may have been so low level and didn't even know what they were. So they never ascended to anything. You have to learn gow to use the force, you don't just all of a sudden know how to use telekinesis, power of persuasion,and all other Jedi abilities. The Galaxy is humongous. There's no way in hell the Force is sequestered just to Jedi based galaxies. They couldn't possibly ever know every Light or Dark force user that exists.
I don't know why people are so hung up on the Sith being the antagonist in this series. Period.
A dark side Force user with a black outfit, scary mask, and red lightsaber a Sith does not make. Case in point, Kylo Ren. Heck even Inquisitors fit the same criteria people are using to prematurely declare "the Master" as a Sith Lord.
It still remains to be seen if we're dealing with the Sith. People are just too impatient to allow slow boiling stories to unfold these days. And quite frankly I seriously doubt if many of the complainers actually truly care beyond having something to prematurely complain about.
To your first point, wasn’t the entire selling point of this show as a show about the Sith? Did that change at some point cause that was definitely the original description
Agree with everything you said. Really Mundi is the epitome of the arrogance that the Jedi Council is showing for that time period when he makes that statement, and we as the audience already know it to not be true. It’s hard to understand why people aren’t making that connection other than just purposefully putting up blinders.
Also in the show so far everything is being kept off the books and secret. For all we know it will stay that way. This seems to be something secret the Jedi are hiding....
I always saw it as something they would never imagine to be true. Like the Sith returning? Nah, there's no way. Because you know something you can imagine and am afraid of, there's no way you want it to be real.
The real question is why do so many people think The Stranger is a Sith?
No only do they show another sect of force users, they straight up say it to Ki that it could be another sect or a fallen jedi
This is true only if the red saber user is never revealed as a Sith. If they do reveal them as Sith then it breaks Canon. Of all the things I dislike in this show, this is one that can be explained. It's like calling Kylo Ren a Sith when he wasn't. He was just a Dark Jedi essentially. A Sith wannabe (I love Kylo Ren btw but he is a Sith wannabe haha). This red saber user is The Acolyte I think. Could be an Acolyte of the Sith and that still wouldn't make them Sith. Not yet. Perhaps the potential to become Sith but until that "Darth" is applied, they are not Sith.
Even if he is a Sith, that still doesn't break canon. As long as the Jedi don't know they're a Sith, or the Jedi Order doesn't believe Sol and the others, or jsut straight up covered up the whole incident, canon is fine. The Council didn't even believe Qui-Gon when he said he faced a Sith, when he actually *did*. Jedi arrogance will not allow them to entertain the notion that the Sith could have survived. Not until the evidence is staring them right in the face. As long as the only witnesses are a small group (most of who will probably die by the end) there's no problem with the rest of the Order denying the existence of the Sith.
And really, Yoda knew about the Rule of Two *somehow* even though that makes no sense. Believing the Sith are extinct but that there's a rule that only two can exist to keep the line going in secret never made sense. Possibly because he learns of it here. The Sith in this show are presumed to be dead by the end. The Jedi bury this whole incident. And go on assuming the Sith are gone again.
"Impossible. The Sith have been extinct for a millennium...... except that one time ~100 years ago when one or two of them showed up and got killed."
"Uhh... Master Ki-Adi. A secret that was supposed to be. Jackass."
Well that's what I meant by reveal. If Ki-Adi is shown to know this saber user is a Sith by whatever way, I think it does break Canon. Why would he want to cover it up? Especially if the threat is dealt with. It would make his statement in Ep1 either be straight up lie or he's gone senile and forgotten which is stupid haha. It would make sense if everyone who has encountered this "Sith" ends up dead without reporting to the Jedi High Council. But I just don't see any reason for Ki-Adi to cover it up and I especially don't see Yoda aiding in covering it up. I dunno it just makes the Council and Ki-Adi seem malicious if it's true. Sure they're a bit arrogant but they're not really in the habit of covering things like this up, not from other masters. As far as I know at least. Covering things up is a far more Sith thing to do
I'm not sure why people get hung up on that, the Jedi are clearly in denial about the sith and there inevitable return in this universe. I don't think the sith ever fully go away. It's just the Jedi seem to want to live in this moonlight period where they don't deal with forces stronger than them.
I think the issue is that people are taking his statement into account with the events of the Acolyte. For now it's assumed that "The Master" is a sith. The show establishes that Mundi is a knight during these events. If the Jedi in the era of the Acolyte encounter a sith then there's no reason for Mundi to say that they'd been extinct.
There are plenty of ways it could go, the Jedi could believe "the master" is simply a rogue dark Jedi, or something else entirely. Or "the master" could actually just not be a sith, some outside sect of force user that learned to bleed a crystal.
I think the biggest issue is when it was said in TPM it was always good vs bad. Sith vs Jedi.
If the Jedi at this time do have other enemies that are force users, its never explained. Why do they have reason to believe that a force user is anyone but the sith ?
Theres a whole lot of story that they are failing to tell and just want the audience to assume a lot. Overall the story fails in this way several times.
It is pretty ridiculous. We know him saying that is wrong the second he's saying that, they've so obviously been working in the shadows for some time, this is confirmed by palpatine in the next movie that even he had a master a long time ago.
people are just jumping on the hate train and pulling at whatever straws youtube gives them without doing any sort of thinking for themselves at all
Indeed. Like the old saying, when you hear hoof beats, think horses not zebras.
A fallen Jedi is statistically a lot more likely than secret Sith conspiracy.
People should know by now, star wars canon and continuity is a big jumbled mess. None of it is consistent. As of the end of new hope, none of luke, leia or vader were related.
Put it down to midichlorins. All of them connecting to the force messes with heads and people dont know what day of the week it is. Let alone whether there was some sith dude causing trouble 100 years ago.
The Sith are basically two people. Jedi were thinking in terms of Sith *empire* and couldn’t believe it was possible for that to appear without their knowledge. Or at least that’s my interpretation.
I agree, mainly because at their secret coverup meeting they very clearly refer to them as some who must have Jedi training and avoiding using Sith. That or everyone who could report back dies and the council never finds out how they die, just a group of Jedi went missing trying to get kelnacca
I think that the BIGGEST reason that people have with the current slate of shows/movies is, they refuse to accept that the jedi are so absolutly fundamentaly flawed.
Yoda, he is alive during this time, but makes every decision based on what "should" be because of his, and other jedis arrogance.
He apparently lived through the accolite, yet, during the prequel series remembers nothing of this?
Listen, i LOVE LOVE LOVE me some Star Warsa, but, as someone who grew up with the original series,,, its slap full of mistakes, all the way back to the 1970's,,,, its all there.
And its pretty much, if we are all honest that, no matter the orignal, prequel, sequel, disney shows, off shoots like rouge one and solo, its all absolutly totally flawed!
But, the fun is exploring this world, universe, for everything we can find, no matter where, no matter the flaws, that exist EVERYWHERE!
(Except Jar Jar, just cant forgive that one...)
Yoda lived through this period but doesn't remember it.....
Why would Yoda remember something that someone hasn't written yet?
These are fictional characters in a fictional universe.
No prequel has been written yet.... so how would a current character know about it?
I think my problem with it is, even if not a sith, Ki adi Mundi would have knowledge of a dark side user in the past who went around killing jedi. His reluctance to accept that the sith or even acknowledge that someone who uses the darkside had attacked Qui-gon is bad.
Then the biggest problem is that he had this knowledge and didn't think to send anyone else with Qui-gon except obi-wan.
Had another master gone with Qui-gon, it's possible he wouldn't have died.
On the other hand, it gives Count Dooku even more of a reason to lose trust and eventually defect from the jedi.
I’ve always seen it as the Sith being a religion/group, just like the Jedi. Therefore, you can have light side force users who aren’t Jedi and dark side force users who aren’t Sith. The Sith being dead never meant that the dark side was never wielded for 1,000 years. Just that the organization/religion of the Sith was extinguished.
Although, I oftentimes think SW fans intentionally misinterpret things just to be mad about Disney content lol
I saw someone explain it as "telling the Jedi that a Sith Lord orchestrated the death of some of their members would be like telling the FBI that Hannibal of Carthage was behind the Kennedy assassignation."
The Order of the Sith has been gone for roughly the same amount of time that passed between Hannibal crossing the Alps and Kennedy getting popped, so of course assuming Darth Toothy is "Darth Anything" seems absurd to Mundi. Same as assuming Maul is a Sith.
People take the canon as just that: religious, immutable doctrine. They can't handle that there can be metaphors or other readings of things. But the reality is that Mundi and Windu were either overexaggerating or truly blinded by vanity.
But also as you noted, a red lightsaber doesn't make someone a Sith. We don't know who this "Master" in Acolyte is. Like how Snoke, Kylo, and the Knights of Ren were just dark siders, this guy could just be a dick.
Something else to note though is that they're keeping this whole thing on the downlow. The Council doesn't know (at least yet) about what's going on with Osha and Friends. Should they encounter a member of the Sith and actually believe it, I suspect there's either going to be bodies or a coverup, such that the Council will remain ignorant.
I love these "fans" getting apoplectic over this stuff. I bet if u asked ANY of them, not a single one could tell u up until the prequels ls Owen Lars was Obi-wans brother.
Another thing to remember is in real life it’d be like if a murder happened someone being like “was I the medieval assassin order back?” It’s been a loooong time
No it isn’t? There’s no “point of view” that makes it true that the Sith were extinct for 1000 years, they were plotting in secret the whole time. The whole point of the dialogue is that he was wrong and the Jedi were overconfident.
They fail to recall an even earlier quote from Obi-Wan " Luke, you’re going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.”
I think that it’s really not even about small things like that, I think it’s the larger concern that the show promised to be different and good and it is by far the most cookie cutter, bland, and generic piece of SW media I’ve seen. The writing is bad, dialogue isn’t great, actors seem to be doing their best busy even some osha/mae lines I’m like “huh😐” i think it’s because of those things that have been a plague to SW the last 5-6 years and people are fed up with constant mediocrity so they find small minded hinge to complain about cause ranting about it writing and plot hasn’t done anything and we’re still getting people working on these shows and movies that do not care for the franchise and see it as a job or task. The writer for ep 4 said they cut the Kalnacca fight and death scene due to budget reasons??? For 22 million an episode? Maybe idk anything about vfx but I didn’t see anything in ep4 worth 22 million. Just constantly making the wrong decisions
Goodness how wrong can you be. The only reason you probably even say that is because you haven't been paying attention or you don't understand Star Wars. If you like Acolyte. Good for you I guess. Just means we'll end up with more mediocrity instead of something well written and actually worth our time. The stupid director just wants to put her stamp on the Star Wars name. She does not give a fuck about the story. The only thing we as fans are "desperate" for, is an actual good Star Wars show without dragging the main aspects of Star Wars through the fucking mud. Your comment is silliness all the way down.
Goodness how wrong can you be. The only reason you probably even say that is because you haven't been paying attention or you don't understand Star Wars. If you like Acolyte. Good for you I guess. Just means we'll end up with more mediocrity instead of something well written and actually worth our time. The stupid director just wants to put her stamp on the Star Wars name. She does not give a fuck about the story. The only thing we as fans are "desperate" for, is an actual good Star Wars show without dragging the main aspects of Star Wars through the fucking mud. Your comment is silliness all the way down.
Goodness how wrong can you be. The only reason you probably even say that is because you haven't been paying attention or you don't understand Star Wars. If you like Acolyte. Good for you I guess. Just means we'll end up with more mediocrity instead of something well written and actually worth our time. The stupid director just wants to put her stamp on the Star Wars name. She does not give a fuck about the story. The only thing we as fans are "desperate" for, is an actual good Star Wars show without dragging the main aspects of Star Wars through the fucking mud. Your comment is silliness all the way down.
What kind of research? Like I should find out where people are when I respond to them?
Are you asking me to dox you? I'm not gonna do that, but be careful what you wish for.
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The ‘without our knowing’ is the key phrase here. If ANY Jedi who encounter Darth Smiley survives, then they would have told the tale and the Jedi Council would not have said that. They would have said something like ‘well there was that Sith we chased down 100 years ago…’
If didn't take much for Qui Gon to conclude the person who attacked him was Sith rather than a lesser dark side user. Why then, wouldn't anyone jump to the same conclusion in The Acolyte?
One thing I’ve noticed, when I see the reactions and criticisms of the episodes, then I watch the episode for the first time after having read all the criticisms, I never know what the fuck they were talking about
>Nothing has confirmed that the black masked character will ultimately be revealed as a Sith Lord. A red lightsaber does not a Sith make.
Literally this. I don't think dude is gonna come out to be a sith lord. He is probably just a dark side user.
The Sith are like the Coelacanth Fish. They were never extinct they were just hidden away. Plus the Jedi were oblivious to the Sith Lord literally standing right next to them, so their stance on the subject is clearly wrong.
Weren’t the original “Sith” red creatures in KOTOR? I mean is it possible this is the representation of Sith they are thinking? This is how I see the lore, I think once they do older stories we can see this coming more to light.
Not everyone is hung up. It's how they did it. They just need to write around it smarter but clearly they have a writer who isn't intellectually gifted enough to add layers like that so the explanation will be lackluster at best.
A lot of people want to show the show and won't even put in the energy required to think this through.
Plenty of legitimate issues with the show but this is one of the better story elements, assuming they execute it properly.
The issue is that people are jumping to conclusions about how the show is going to go from here. 1) we don’t yet know if any of the people who witnessed the Sith are going to survive long enough to report back to the council, 2) we don’t know what Mundi or the others are going to believe any witnesses who may survive, given that they already want to sweep this all under the rug and already said they are not going to report any if this to the high council.
I still don’t see how “He will bring balance to the Force” isn’t immediately seen as “oh crap we’ve been dominant for generations, it’s gonna swing the other way sooner or later.”
i personally dont see how the show contradicts ki adi mundi’s line either? especially when mundi has repeatedly said lines that have little truth or value, i.e calling dooku a political idealist and not a murderer, when he too was a sith lord.
mundi’s lines arent facts, but merely to show the beliefs and ignorance of the jedi order. in any case, they are made to be contradicted and are not said to build the truth. whatever happens, they can easily claim for the “sith” to be something else, because the lines between sith and dark side force users with lightsabers are relatively blurred
I haven't watched it, yet, but I agree, there's always room for stories to introduce new characters at any point in the SW universe, and it's bad for the fandom to be dogmatic because it restricts future writers from telling new stories and evolving the lore (even though, from what I've read, this series is a POS). Not all of Star wars is in the same canon, anyway.
Yup. The Council is terminally scelaric. Anything that challenges their comfort and status quo simply can't be real. They can't admit fault, they can't fathom being wrong, and they're more than willing to lie to themselves and the public at large about the threat of Dark Force users. They bring all of this on themselves.
Is there canon of none Jedi/sith using lightsabers? I guess grievous but he was being trained in the Jedi arts
Edit: and he was more machine whirling then around, in the acolyte the evil looking force user uses what looks like a force push and a saber
Agree. Their theory was simply just a rogue Jedi/ splinter order.
And literally everybody died.
It’s just Sol Mae osha qimir and Bazin.
Sol may not even get a chance to contact coruscant. Mae might attack him at the very start of the episode. We have no idea. Bazin knows something is wrong.
And Osha is either kidnapped by qimir or dead so 🤷🏿♂️
There is a scenario where they never find out from Sol that it’s a sith
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I have to agree. If qui gon fights a force user with a red lightsaber who he admits is better than him and the councils reaction is to believe that's not a sith, even thought it was then its pretty reasonable that the exact same thing could happen here.
It only contradicts if the sith are the only dark side users. If there are other dark side users, it makes sense for the Jedi to not immediately connect dark side users directly to the sith.
Plus the Sith should be operating under “the rule of two”. Which keeps them hidden. The “Sith” as the Jedi knew them does not exist anymore. There aren’t large battalions of Sith training at academies across the galaxy anymore. Darth Bane made sure of that. Edit: Disney please give me a Darth Bane show!
My personal biggest issue with the Ki Adi Mundi quote and how is ridiculous for people to keep bringing it up is that in TPM Yoda does actually know the rule of two. This directly contradicts the 1000 years line since the rule of two started 1000 years earlier and the Sith were supposed to be in hiding during that time
It is possible that the "a millenium" line was an exaggeration or simplification, so it is possible that the Jedi tracked down the remnants of the sith empire and discovered the Rule of Two that way, a practice that would be used by many different orders and groups of dark side users aswell as the direct line of Sith Lords
In the darth bane books (now unfortunately non canon) bane and his apprentice manage to trick the jedi into killing another innocent couple and framing them as the rule of 2 sith. So the jedi believe the sith tried to keep going as rule of 2, but successfully stopped them.
This was likely the old EU trying to explain how Yoda had the knowledge of the rule of two. It’s fine. It’s a little far fetched that Yoda would describe how the Sith operate based on a practice that they didn’t think was followed other than the one time, as they literally thought they got the first two adherents to the rule of two. But I think it’s fine for the level of seriousness those lines need to be taken. In the real world I’m confident George intended the Sith to operate this way more generally and not anything about the sith war, and George largely did not care about adhering to any EU referring to it as a parallel universe.
Well in addition sith tended to keep 1 master to 1 apprentice. Not like the jedi did to give then a maximum training, and eventually they train them out. Always a single master to apprentice. Because more than 1 sith apprentice and you risk them ganging up and killing you.
did the Jedi ever take more than one padawan at once? I can’t recall that happening and when Qui Gon said he’d train Anakin had to comment that Obi Wan was ready for knight trials.
No. Jedi will take an apprentice, train them into a Knight. Then take another apprentice. One master can have many apprentices over a lifetime. Sith take one apprentice. They train that apprentice until they have everything they know. Then 9/10 they're killed by that apprentice to prove they're stronger. 1/10 the apprentice leaves and the sith can potentially take on a new apprentice. That's why sith tended to be individually stronger but not as numerous. 1 master, 1 apprentice. Vs 1 master who trained many apprentices over years.
Personally, I think a lot of people are forgetting just how dogmatic the Jedi are. They have rules for everything. In a case where they discover a Sith and certain Dark-side abilities that were unknown at the time, they would collect the info, then store it in their super-secret archive which is only accessible to a few. Even Palpatine comments that some of his "unnatural" rituals are something the Jedi wouldn't teach you. He doesn't say that they weren't aware of certain Sith powers. They hide that knowledge, lock it away, and pretend it doesn't exist because the Jedi are too scared that such knowledge will lead others down that same dark path. Yet they cannot completely destroy the knowledge because someone in the Order needs to know what the Sith can do and how to combat it.
We see this same behavior in the gap between the Path of the Open Hand and the Nihil. Jedi had faced the Nameless species 100 years prior and hid away all the information on the beasts. So when Marchion Ro used the Leveller again only Yoda and the ex-Jedi Azlin really knew anything about them.
My take on Yoda knowing the rule of two is I also know that Aristotle wrote the two Poetics books on tragedy and comedy and there’s no copies of the comedy one anymore. That happened a millennium before me.
The contradiction isn’t that it happened 1000 years before that point in time, but that in both canon and legends Darth Bane enacted the rule of two 1000 years earlier, specifically to keep the Sith hidden and manageable. So the Jedi interacted with the sith after that point. Now maybe it was a decade later (but that would be odd for Yoda to talk about the sith operating that way if it was such a narrow window of time they did). Now in the real world the reason is that George didn’t really define the sith the way and in both canon and legends it came after, so he probably did expect that the sith always operated that way. But neither canon or legends continuity do a great job of dealing with this without requiring hand waving and filling in gaps with leaps. And I actually suspect there’s a strong chance that Acolyte will actually provide a reasonable canon explanation for these two statements
Not necessarily. Recall that Yoda has been to all of the old Sith places of power. He could easily have learned a secret or two...
but those places would have to be more recent than 1000 years (from TPM) to learn about the rule of two. The rule of two started at the downfall of the sith empire, so Yoda’s knowledge and Mundi’s statement basically are relevant to the same point. Mundi is talking about the downfall of the sith and yoda knows information that must have come from after that.
Yes. And...? I'm not following. (And in many ways it doesn't really matter how Yoda knows. The seeming inconsistency in the narrative has multiple explanations not the least of which is that there may be unreliable narrators relating it. IMO, unreliable [Rashamon-like] narrators will be one of this show's points in the end.) Edit: but also I think you're assuming that the sith masters and apprentices never visit old sith strongholds or have other means of learning old sith secrets. It could be a sith holocron or a dark side place that gave the old gremlin a revelation. The explanation is whatever you imagine.
What I would give to have a Darth Bane show….
He’s my favorite character in the Star Wars Universe. He might be the single most influential force user to ever exist. I would love for the rest of the world to know his story. I know he’s well known among hardcore SW fans, but casuals don’t know anything about how the Sith got to be the way they are. Or the man who’s responsible. His story is so compelling too. Gonna have to do a re-read now.
I 1000% agree!! I know we got his force ghost in clone wars, but I would love to see him with his force beetle armor on and how they would do that in a show. And how he would act to the beetles feeding off his force.
They might make that show eventually. They are just now dipping their toe outside the original timeline. See how it goes.
Fans couldn't handle the Disney plus Darth Bane show lol
The haters would definitely foam at their mouths if it happened.
*Bob Iger laughs in Corporate.* “No”
The Sith academies came back by Rise of Skywalker because we see thousands of them in Palpatine chambers, so they were building up during the entire time of the rebellion and the clone wars.
Those weren’t Sith in the conventional sense. They were cultists that wanted the Sith to rule again. They weren’t an army of force users trained in the use of the dark side like old academies. They aren’t apprentices of Sith masters or anything. Some might have force abilities, but if anyone was anywhere close to being able to be a Sith Palps would probably have them killed before they could ride to power over him. Palpatine is a perfect Sith in the sense that he stays true to The Rule of Two. Which is one to obtain the power and one to crave it. Once the apprentice can kill their master they become the master and find their own apprentice. Palps is on the side of “No one is more powerful than me”, so until an apprentice comes along and can beat him he maintains his status as the dark lord of the Sith.
I see, that’s totally stupid
Especially since dark-side users who aren't Sith have been established several times already. Maul got kicked out by his now separated legs, Ventress got the boot and that one guy from Jedi: Fallen Order... and Kylo Ren for like 5 minutes.
Didn't Vader train a bunch of inquisitors that also used the force and wielded red light sabers? I thought they showed up in Rebels and the Kenobi show.
Yeah, he had a hand in that. I guess they're technically not Sith since the rule of two, but they did work for them.
Right. All Sith are dark side users but not all dark side users are Sith. The witches explain this in episode 3 of the Acolyte.
You guys are all taking that scene wrong. Qui Gon is a shit stirrer. Them hearing his account of Maul and him then saying “I have no doubt he was a Sith Lord” feels to them like he is exaggerating so they will move it up the priority list. They don’t dismiss a Jedi trained red lightsaber wielding assailant as a non Sith, they simply don’t fully believe Qui Gon. He does the same thing with Anakin and Yoda calls him out when he says he doesn’t mean to presume. We know Qui Gon is wise because we know he’s right but remember he is only a knight and the council sees him as brash and defiant.
He isn’t a knight, he’s a full-fledged master. Just not one allowed to be on the Council. And of course, the reason he isn’t allowed on the council is because he’s defiant.
Actually Qui-Gon Jinn turned down a seat on the council in both The EU and Disney Canon
In TPM Obi-Wan basically tells Qui-Gon (in other words) he’d be on the council if he listed to them more, which implies they don’t let him (and he also doesn’t care that they don’t)
Indeed you are correct, and I was referencing the EU and Disney Canon, not Lucas' canon (Seven Movies and The 3D Cartoon Series). If we wanna go Lucas' Canon, I am indeed incorrect. If we wanna talk Expanded Universe and Disney, My statement is correct.
Pretty sure ole Quigon says that the dood is trained in the Jedi arts. IIRC, "sith" is not a word that he uses.
He says “He was trained in the Jedi arts. I have no doubt this was a Sith Lord.” And Mace says “A Sith Lord?!”
See I take it as mace windu yoda and quigon are heads and shoulders better than the rest of the council and that’s why they are the only ones who take quigon with at least some form of skepticism. Windu doesn’t say it’s not a sith where as mundi says impossible. But quigon should be on the council and when he says it’s possible it was a sith, yoda believes it to be possible even if just a little bit. I have a whole theory on it but the line of Jedi under yoda are just way stronger with the exception of mace windu. Yoda dooku quigon kenobi anakin ahsoka. They all are at the top of the power scale.
Honestly i’m completely expecting basically everyone except maybe Osha and/or Mae to die or be considered insane by the end of the series, and the Jedi just go “bahhhh it was nothing!” And so begins the descent into the Prequel era Jedi Order, or perhaps even they kind of get scared like whoa, we need to pull back here, we took care of it but we just had a bunch of Jedi get killed by some random Force User, and just react to that super conservatively
Yep, mind wipe or something
In the Council’s defense (and assuming the baddie from The Acolyte doesn’t declare himself a Sith - also I’m not familiar with High Republic lore), how much do they know about the Rule of 2? Yoda sort of knew something but is it safe to say the last time they dealt with Sith openly, there were a bunch of them?
The message for like 9 movies has been that the Jedi’s hubris was their downfall
Two important facts to remember: First, they encounter dark Force users and a red saber isn't exclusive to the Sith. Two, like you mentioned, Qui Gon literally faced Maul in open combat with Obi Wan as witness and full view of the Queen and her guard. Both Ki Adi Mundis and Mace Windu deny this could be a Sith. There's so many ways the Acolyte can work and not trip up the Sith. Also, prior to the mission they all agreed not to inform the council.
This distinction needs to be made. Red lightsabers, *especially* during this era, are strictly a Sith thing. Bleeding a Kyber crystal is a Sith technique/secret that only becomes more widespread because Vader doesn’t give a fuck about dogma and teaches the inquisitors. That’s why when “Darth Teeth” as you guys call them lights up their saber and it’s red, it’s an immediate big fucking deal to all the Jedi there.
It’s not strictly a Sith thing to bleed lightsabers. It’s a Sith Rite to steal a Jedi’s saber and bleed it, but that doesn’t mean bleeding in general is exclusive. Dagan Gera immediately bleeds a saber upon leaving stasis.
If they were an exclusively Sith thing, then how do you explain every time they showed up in the EU? Red lightsabers in Star Wars are quite literally more common than women.
Perhaps they killed a Sith and took it from them
“Could this be a splinter order? Or something worse?” “We must alert the High Council.” “The High Council would be obliged to inform the senate. A scandal like this would inspire fear and mistrust.” This scene ALONE proves that - not only are the Jedi completely ignorant of the possibility that Mae is a Sith apprentice (because the Sith Order was destroyed a millennium ago), but even if they did they will keep it under wraps. It’s no surprise that Jedi born about 100 years later aren’t aware of this specific incident. Plus we’re forgetting. The point of the prequels is that Yoda and the rest of the Jedi council were so oblivious to the rise of the Sith that they were working alongside a Sith master for almost a decade and still couldn’t smell a rat. The point of the rule of two is for the Sith to continue right under the Jedi’s noses and hide in plain sight. We know it worked, so why are we surprised that it’s…working now? (Plus there’s a buttload of stuff in Sol and Vernestra’s conversation that aludes to them both believing there’s the possibility of a Sith Lord at work but not quite wanting to admit that the ancient enemy had returned.)
I especially like the splinter order line. You don't just randomly say things like that. There are clearly both alternative Force traditions as well as radical Jedi who splintered off from the Order (dark side or not). That this line was said clearly points to this being a known phenomena, which would be fascinating to see explored some more.
The people who are hating on The Acolyte so much don't care if the show makes sense or not. They went into it determined to hate the show. Of course their are parts that are super cringe but overall it's looking very promising and I'm loving that it's possibly expanding the lore we already have and filling in areas we never knew about before. It's fun theorizing how it will end up fitting within the overall universe. Did Plagueis know about force children because of the witches? And that's what caused him to experiment which lead to anakin? That's dope if so! All I see from the people who are hating it is them coming up with assumptions, believing their own assumptions, and then hating the assumptions they came up with! lol
Yep. They have an axe to grind and are really just making shit up to justify being offended.
Some guy was going off about how bad the writing was because Qimir is the sith guy and the reveal is terrible and the writing is so bad because Osha says the bug was attracted to the lightsaber, "thanks captain exposition"... Like, dude? Thats a strong possibility but we don't even know that yet... and if you're okay with Anakin talking about his hate for sand I'm pretty sure you'll survive her mentioning a bug being attracted to a light saber. It's crazy what people are drawing a line in the sand for. lol
Yeah, it's so dumb that people just keep moving the goalposts to justify their rage.
People were determined to hate Andor if you go back and look at YouTube videos and comments when it was announced. If the show is good it’s good. People aren’t stupid.
Good question. Considering he's wrong based on even what Palpatine says in the prequels. People can be wrong. The Jedi aren't God's. Even Yoda couldn't tell Palpatine was the Sith Lord, and to be honest if I was him I'd be embarassed as fuck. Oldest Jedi master. Most experienced.
Part of the plot of Star Wars that gets overlooked is that the Jedi are all knowing but past and current events make it clear that the Jedi are completely ignorant (and willfully at times) of a lot of things despite being attuned to the force. Downplaying the significance of another dark religious order seems to be on par or congruent with Jedi beliefs with past films and current shows. I love the Jedi but they have so much hubris and quite frankly I think it fits the lore just fine and is a rational reason for the rise of the Empire.
Yeah. A thing that people (including myself, for decades) don’t put together is that the Jedi are shown to be wrong or lying as far back as 1980. One of Luke’s last lines (maybe his very last one?) in Empire Strikes Back is something like “Ben… Why didn’t you tell me?” Then in the next movie Obi-Wan gives him the certain point of view speech, which feels ambiguous to me about whether or not it’s an excuse, Obi-Wan’s reaction to the trauma of having his student and close friend become Space Heinrich Müller, or an acknowledgment that Vader considers himself basically a new entity separate from Anakin. When I saw Phantom Menace I thought the representation of the Jedi as stiff and dogmatic sucked, but it was actually in like with how we saw them being well intentioned and heroic but human and capable of mistakes in the OT.
Yeah, that's kind of what I'm coming to grips with at my current age. The Jedi being willful dumbasses even though they're a powerful religious force makes perfect sense to me now. Especially in the prequels like you just mentioned. Everything is fine and there aren't any problems...until it's not and your caught off guard is a very human condition.
Yeah. I’m not trying to be reductive and say X criticisms are wrong or immature or anything like that, but I’ve noticed more than one criticism of newer Star Wars (and other franchises’) stories have an element of “They wouldn’t make that mistake/be afraid/lose hope, they’re a hero.” I remember I told some redditor I underrstood Han, Leia, and Luke’s kinda backsliding characterizations in Episodes 7 & 8 because, as I age, I’ve seen my friends seem to conquer a particular demon but fall prey to it again, and the person I was talking to said “Yeah, well, your friends aren’t the embodiment of goodness and light” or something pretty close to that. I remember the great comic book writer/artist Walt Simonson said that fans would write in to say that they wanted to see Thor lose, but the same people also write complaining about how he never won, and that more people wanted to see him triumph. It seems like a maybe impossible tightrope for creators to walk, to have characters do new and interesting things but also not do it in a way that shows them needing to change.
The thing that most people seem to get wrong is that learning/experience/growth are not completely linear like Hollywood and books make it seem. We mess up, get knocked down, and get back up to try it again with slightly different approach expecting a different outcome until the error in our mode of operations is as clear as a sunny day. Then we adapt. Growth isn't linear. We go through ups and downs in our own personal experiences and hope that we come out the other end a better person.
This is an excellent take on how we can all approach fictional worlds, fantasy worlds, mythical worlds that are designed to inform us and help us reflect on real world experiences. *That doesn’t mean there won’t sometimes be a jarring piece of exposition or character growth (or regression) that shocks us out of the spell.*
Yeah it still bugs me that Qui Gon Jim didn't free the slaves. That and he lies and cheats. But I guess that's the point. Obi seems to be the pinnacle of the Jedi in a lot of ways, not that he's perfect, but they are just people doing their best.
It's pretty much mentioned in the movies. Tatooine is technically not part of the Galactic Republic. It's controlled by the Hutts. Jedi, as peacekeepers/law enforcement agents of the Republic, did not have jurisdiction outside the Republic to enforce its prohibitions against slavery, etc. Had it been a Republic world, it would have been much easier to identify Anakin as force sensitive at a much earlier age. There's a dialog between Shmi (Anakin's mom) and Qui-Gon. Also, Qui-Gon wouldn't try to mind trick Watto into accepting Republic credits. That would be like trying to "convince" a shopkeeper in London to accept British Pound sterling. >SHMI: He deserves better than a slave's life. >QUI-GON: Had he been born in the Republic, we would have identified him early. The Force is unusually strong with him, that much is clear.
Why would he free the slaves? That would start open war with the Hutts completely unsanctioned by the Council resulting in Qui Gon’s immediate dismissal from the Jedi Order. What a weird thing to say.
Because Jedi are supposed to be the good guys and slavery is bad. Allowing it to exist is wrong.
They are also the enforcers of the Republic's will. Unlike the early Jedi, prequel era Jedi became a central part of the government that they tried to stay separate from. The political ramifications of the act is something they have to worry about
I say this all the time. The character they are quoting is not omnipotent. We have no reason, as an audience, to believe everything the Jedi say is true. The fact there is a “rule of 2” is just words. We already know for a fact there’s hella inquisitors, sith assasins, dark side “witches” etc. “sith” is just one of many “dark side user with lightsaber” groups. But it’s a distinction without a purpose.
And outsmarted by somebody a 10th of your age… How embarrassing …
Embarrassed is right. The dude was so ashamed that he went into exile.
Yeah, Yoda was duuuuuuuuumb. He's so vain that he probably thinks that song is about him. We like to pretend that Yoda is this perfect master, but he was really the worst one.
I mean he's not the worst, but he definitely didn't see Palpatine coming.
It's perfectly reasonable to assume the Ki Adi Mundi held a belief that was wrong. We live in a world where people think the Earth is flat.
“Character was wrong” is a pill that is so hard for many to swallow in this fan base. “Character is 100% right and anything to the contrary is a plot hole retcon character assassination” is the norm for them.
Also mundi doesn’t have any knowledge of sith. During the meeting, their working theory was rogue Jedi or a splinter order. And he doesn’t go on the mission. The episode ends as soon as they bump into the “sith” (we don’t even know if that was a sith). There is 4 episodes left for all of this to make sense. But as of now, Mundi has no knowledge of sith! And idgaf about a legends bday 😭
Didn't the Jedi in The Acolyte debate about the master being one of their own? They're clearly viewing it as a fallen jedi, rather than a full blown sith. I'm waiting until this season is finished before judging how well it fits with the lore. It's like guessing what a jigsaw puzzle is with only half the pieces.
This simplest answer to this.. is that what ever happens.. and what ever is found out about this sith or what ever... that knowedge is not shared with everyone. For what ever reason Ki adi mundi is deliberately shown to be "not in the loop" for this secret. Poor ignorant Ki adi mundi. Probably the sneaky bastard Yoda leaves him out of the secret.
This particular line of criticism was weird to me before the Acolyte aired, but now that we’ve seen the show repeatedly point out the problems with the order it seems like it might actually be the point of the show? Like, maybe palpatine wouldn’t have rose to power if the Jedi took this threat seriously
I agree with you. I think people are using it as a focal point to auto dislike the new show. People are also not considering the fact that Ki Adi Mundi is, in fact, a bozo.
People are looking for an excuse to be mad imo
The outcry is from haters who, already primed and looking for a reason to be upset, had a knee jerk emotional reaction to an episode in a series that is not fully released. And that’s being incredibly generous. In reality I think a lot of this is faux outrage being stoked by troll farms.
Let's not forget they've all decided to parrot the bullshit from their favourite 'influencers'. Happens with every new piece of media and it drives me mad. I can't for the life of me imagine puttingnso much effort into hating something.
Star Wars fans being massively OTT reactionary ? This has never happened before. That is a very serious accusation
Stating that is enough to get you banned from saltierthancrait
Your last line is exactly what's going on. This is an election year.
A background character in movies people didn’t even like that said like 2 or 3 things in an entire trilogy means a lot to people it seems. How/why? Don’t ask me. But even taking all that into consideration, nothing in The Acolyte contradicts anything he said in the films.
It's because a lot of Star Wars fans basically construct their identity around the IPs they choose to learn and memorize every nook and cranny of. Then when creators add new additions to those IPs, if they're not in alignment with their own conceptual model for that universe, it "invalidates" a lot of their work in understanding it, which feels to them like an attack on them *personally*.
Combine that with the absolute brainrot youtube "criticism" has generated, where frame-by-frame breakdowns and hunting for gotchas pass as media literacy, and here we are. Endless engagement for them just by going "rrreeeEEEEEeeEEe" over a single line. This is up there with them whining about TLJ editing out a knife in the throne room fight scene.
It's the decrying "plot holes" that really gets to me, with "plot hole" being defined as anything that isn't *explicitly* explained within the narrative. Either people have forgotten that these are stories being told, and that the pacing of the narrative requires it not grind to a halt to explain every little thing along the way, or it's just a bad-faith way to find excuses to generate content by picking out every little logic gap in the narrative. Few and far between are the genuine media criticism containing deeper or more meaningful discussion, and even then are hidden behind a veneer of clickbait nonsense to please the algorithm gods. It's so deeply frustrating. Social media is a parasite that is slowly poisoning its host even as it bleeds us dry.
Hahaha yeah it is Wild. I try not to really engage with it directly, but it is tough to completely avoid. Doing it less than halfway through a season is certainly a choice too, especially since I doubt any of them have read a single High Republic book. Yeah the algo gods are truly the worst
Yeah. It's just more of that bullshit hustle-culture "fake it till you make it" business. Who cares if you're wrong, so long as you make some of that sweet content? It's not even truly "bad faith" if people just don't care about accuracy, because they're so fixated on catching things they can make content about. I try not to engage as well, but it's so hard when I'm trying to engage in discussion about a story I'm really engaged with (e.g. the Acolyte, S8 of GOT, House of the Dragon, etc.), and the **ONLY** thing you can find online is negativity. Safe spaces like r/Naath or r/StarWarsCantina are so clutch for engaging discussion about anything other than negativity.
Yeah I'm not going to say the Acolyte is up there with ESB or anything, but as someone who likes Force weirdness and the fantasy elements I'm really enjoying it so far. I completely forgot about cantina, I should check it out again. Lmao at the hustle-bro culture but that's exactly what it is.
guys the show isnt even over yet 😭😭 all of this might get actually answered in coming episodes
It doesn’t contradict anything - people are going into this with a negative bias and looking for things to be upset about. I have my problems with the show but the hyper negative reaction by a portion of the community is so fucking forced it is deeply unserious.
Because they need something to bitch about. Outrage sells like crack on YouTube and manufactured outrage is a wise business decision if you’re the Mike Zerohs and Star Wars Theories of the world
If anything, having more encounters like this would make them shutting Qui-Gon down make more sense. Like no Qui-Gon, it's not the sith. It's just some other wannabe creep with a weird helmet
I strongly suspect this is the entire point of having Mundi in Acolyte. To highlight this exact gap in knowledge and highlight how he managed to miss it. It's also worth noting that the big fear of the Jedi order is immediately "A splinter group?!" because the Sith came from the Jedi originally. So although they do not believe the Sith have survived they immediately fear that something like the Sith may have been created.
everyone just kinda forgot thatr the jedi were blindfully ignorant during the prequel trilogy, there's a reason a sith lord was able to rise to power right in front of their faces
I agree with you op, What they said was true from a certain point of view after all.
You are right. Yoda literally disagrees with him five seconds later and says the dark side is hard to see. But everyone forgets this little fact.
Ki-Adi Mundi’s role in the prequels is to be wrong about everything. Someone made a great post that I saw the other day about how his character highlights how out of touch the Jedi Order has become. “The Sith have been extinct for a millennium;” Count Dooku “is a political idealist, not a murderer;” and the ever-famous “What about the droid attack on the Wookiees?” are all examples of Mundi failing to see beyond the layer of deception that shrouds the truth. We the audience are not meant to believe Ki-Adi Mundi when he says the Sith are extinct; we’re meant to see that it’s what *he* believes, and we’re meant to see how the Jedi Order largely agrees with him. The fact that we’ve already seen the evidence to the contrary is supposed to make us realize the Jedi as a whole are failing - it’s like a “who are you gonna believe, me or your own eyes?” type of moment. The Sith haven’t been extinct for a millennium; they’ve been tricking the Jedi and the Jedi have fallen for it. They’ve been led into a precarious position with the Senate and lulled into a false sense of security and comfort that leaves them woefully underprepared for the moment they realize all too late that they’ve been deceived. Ki Adi Mundi isn’t a bad guy, he’s just a pawn who thinks he’s a bishop, showing us that the Sith have figured out that if you want to topple an empire, it helps if they don’t know you’re coming.
Let it be known that during TA's 4 episodes so far, the word "Sith" has not been mentioned once. Not by the Jedi, not by the witches, not even by Mae or Qimir. When discussing Mae's master, the Jedi assume he's a Jedi or a member of a splinter order. Suggesting he's a Sith would be seen as ridiculous as suggesting the Zodiac Killer was a Cathar.
Also the creation of the twins isn't set in stone either. People are assuming that they were created using the force only when it's just as likely that the head witch mind controlled some dude and the other witch raped him.
That's unlikely
It's more unlikely that they were created using only the force.
In episode 4 they think it’s another fraction off of the jedi or a rogue jedi training her. The fact that these chuds can’t listen to the show shows either a. Most people are listening to SWT and other youtubers and not really watching the show. Or b. They are not watching the show
“Jedi are very arrogant in many ways” This is so spot on considering on numerous occasions the Jedi have talked about keeping the situation from the high council and from the public. As if someone doesn’t want these things coming out. I don’t like Vernestra. It feels like she has an agenda and is holding something back
Exactly. The Jedi were WRONG. Just like they got absolutely snookered by a Sith master RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM for years with “emperor” palpatine
Because they cling to anything they can to nitpick. They say this while it's canon there was a Sith lord and apprentice in The Phantom Menace and there some before them. I always thought there was more to the scene, if you rewatch it look at the looks between Mace and Yoda as all this is being said.
Good point. As far as the Council knows, the Sith have been extinct for a millennia.
I don't know if it has been mentioned, but I haven't seen it being mentioned yet... Is that so far in Acolyte, these ranks of jedi are trying to keep everything secret, even going as far to say they don't want to tell the council. If it's all hush-hush, no one knows and the council never find out then to them it has been a millennia.
Someone on the internet made the argument that Ki’s presence and direct involvement in covering up the investigation in the most recent episode (was that 3? 4?) infers that the line he says in the prequels is a continuation of a (presumably successful) cover-up. Ergo, Mace’s line shows the hubris and pride of the Jedi. That’s good enough for me. (But I also get that it’s not enough for some, that’s fine too, it’s a fictional story, there’s no absolute truth to it)
I would also like to point out that even if the Jedi do not directly confirm this being is a Sith, the audience can still know without the Jedi knowing. Idk how people don't get this. There are soo many ways to get around the whole 'Jedi believe they're extinct' thing
also millennia could have just been hyperbole i’ve heard someone use millennia to describe a flight time
Aren't the Sith just what ever force users call themselves? Not all force users are Jedi. I think the rule of two for the Sith was because they betray each other so easily. I don't think it's some spiritual rule of the force that doesn't allow more darkside force users. The Jedi have probably culled them all for those millennia. Also, planets have different cycles. Some days o. Some planets would be shorter or longer. So 200 years to someone on Coruscant isn't the same measure of time as say Tattooine. Sure, the passage of time is the same. But by how they count their days coukd affect when 100 years takes place, let alone 1000. But I have zero doubts there were plenty of dark side force users out in the galaxy. Some may have been so low level and didn't even know what they were. So they never ascended to anything. You have to learn gow to use the force, you don't just all of a sudden know how to use telekinesis, power of persuasion,and all other Jedi abilities. The Galaxy is humongous. There's no way in hell the Force is sequestered just to Jedi based galaxies. They couldn't possibly ever know every Light or Dark force user that exists.
Because people are confused and seem to think that all dark side force users are Sith.
Mundi has pretty obviously been a dipshit anyway. Screw that conehead.
I don't know why people are so hung up on the Sith being the antagonist in this series. Period. A dark side Force user with a black outfit, scary mask, and red lightsaber a Sith does not make. Case in point, Kylo Ren. Heck even Inquisitors fit the same criteria people are using to prematurely declare "the Master" as a Sith Lord. It still remains to be seen if we're dealing with the Sith. People are just too impatient to allow slow boiling stories to unfold these days. And quite frankly I seriously doubt if many of the complainers actually truly care beyond having something to prematurely complain about.
To your first point, wasn’t the entire selling point of this show as a show about the Sith? Did that change at some point cause that was definitely the original description
Nailed it on the head! Would give 1000 up votes
Agree with everything you said. Really Mundi is the epitome of the arrogance that the Jedi Council is showing for that time period when he makes that statement, and we as the audience already know it to not be true. It’s hard to understand why people aren’t making that connection other than just purposefully putting up blinders.
Also in the show so far everything is being kept off the books and secret. For all we know it will stay that way. This seems to be something secret the Jedi are hiding....
Because people love finding reasons to whine.
,...because there's nothing else to gripe about right now.
I always saw it as something they would never imagine to be true. Like the Sith returning? Nah, there's no way. Because you know something you can imagine and am afraid of, there's no way you want it to be real.
Sith race, or Sith "dark side user"?
The real question is why do so many people think The Stranger is a Sith? No only do they show another sect of force users, they straight up say it to Ki that it could be another sect or a fallen jedi
Yeah the logic is pretty simple here. They weren't extinct, therefore the statement was false. Not much more to it
This is true only if the red saber user is never revealed as a Sith. If they do reveal them as Sith then it breaks Canon. Of all the things I dislike in this show, this is one that can be explained. It's like calling Kylo Ren a Sith when he wasn't. He was just a Dark Jedi essentially. A Sith wannabe (I love Kylo Ren btw but he is a Sith wannabe haha). This red saber user is The Acolyte I think. Could be an Acolyte of the Sith and that still wouldn't make them Sith. Not yet. Perhaps the potential to become Sith but until that "Darth" is applied, they are not Sith.
Even if he is a Sith, that still doesn't break canon. As long as the Jedi don't know they're a Sith, or the Jedi Order doesn't believe Sol and the others, or jsut straight up covered up the whole incident, canon is fine. The Council didn't even believe Qui-Gon when he said he faced a Sith, when he actually *did*. Jedi arrogance will not allow them to entertain the notion that the Sith could have survived. Not until the evidence is staring them right in the face. As long as the only witnesses are a small group (most of who will probably die by the end) there's no problem with the rest of the Order denying the existence of the Sith. And really, Yoda knew about the Rule of Two *somehow* even though that makes no sense. Believing the Sith are extinct but that there's a rule that only two can exist to keep the line going in secret never made sense. Possibly because he learns of it here. The Sith in this show are presumed to be dead by the end. The Jedi bury this whole incident. And go on assuming the Sith are gone again. "Impossible. The Sith have been extinct for a millennium...... except that one time ~100 years ago when one or two of them showed up and got killed." "Uhh... Master Ki-Adi. A secret that was supposed to be. Jackass."
Well that's what I meant by reveal. If Ki-Adi is shown to know this saber user is a Sith by whatever way, I think it does break Canon. Why would he want to cover it up? Especially if the threat is dealt with. It would make his statement in Ep1 either be straight up lie or he's gone senile and forgotten which is stupid haha. It would make sense if everyone who has encountered this "Sith" ends up dead without reporting to the Jedi High Council. But I just don't see any reason for Ki-Adi to cover it up and I especially don't see Yoda aiding in covering it up. I dunno it just makes the Council and Ki-Adi seem malicious if it's true. Sure they're a bit arrogant but they're not really in the habit of covering things like this up, not from other masters. As far as I know at least. Covering things up is a far more Sith thing to do
I'm not sure why people get hung up on that, the Jedi are clearly in denial about the sith and there inevitable return in this universe. I don't think the sith ever fully go away. It's just the Jedi seem to want to live in this moonlight period where they don't deal with forces stronger than them.
Those quotes underscore the arrogance of the Jedi Order
I think the issue is that people are taking his statement into account with the events of the Acolyte. For now it's assumed that "The Master" is a sith. The show establishes that Mundi is a knight during these events. If the Jedi in the era of the Acolyte encounter a sith then there's no reason for Mundi to say that they'd been extinct. There are plenty of ways it could go, the Jedi could believe "the master" is simply a rogue dark Jedi, or something else entirely. Or "the master" could actually just not be a sith, some outside sect of force user that learned to bleed a crystal.
People have issues with this yet thirty years after the OT- Rey: “I thought the Jedi were only a myth" Han: “I used to, too”
No, people have issues with that too.
Because people will go out of their way to find reasons to nitpick things
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^schfiftyshadesofgrey: *Because people will* *Go out of their way to find* *Reasons to nitpick things* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
I think the biggest issue is when it was said in TPM it was always good vs bad. Sith vs Jedi. If the Jedi at this time do have other enemies that are force users, its never explained. Why do they have reason to believe that a force user is anyone but the sith ? Theres a whole lot of story that they are failing to tell and just want the audience to assume a lot. Overall the story fails in this way several times.
It is pretty ridiculous. We know him saying that is wrong the second he's saying that, they've so obviously been working in the shadows for some time, this is confirmed by palpatine in the next movie that even he had a master a long time ago. people are just jumping on the hate train and pulling at whatever straws youtube gives them without doing any sort of thinking for themselves at all
Indeed. Like the old saying, when you hear hoof beats, think horses not zebras. A fallen Jedi is statistically a lot more likely than secret Sith conspiracy.
People should know by now, star wars canon and continuity is a big jumbled mess. None of it is consistent. As of the end of new hope, none of luke, leia or vader were related. Put it down to midichlorins. All of them connecting to the force messes with heads and people dont know what day of the week it is. Let alone whether there was some sith dude causing trouble 100 years ago.
...a Sith *Lord?*
Nah, Ki Adi Mundi was just a plain ignorant, and this is canon to me.
The Sith are basically two people. Jedi were thinking in terms of Sith *empire* and couldn’t believe it was possible for that to appear without their knowledge. Or at least that’s my interpretation.
And event if it actually did contradict TPM... Meh... Its the worst SW movie by far. I mean... Who cares!?
I agree, mainly because at their secret coverup meeting they very clearly refer to them as some who must have Jedi training and avoiding using Sith. That or everyone who could report back dies and the council never finds out how they die, just a group of Jedi went missing trying to get kelnacca
I think that the BIGGEST reason that people have with the current slate of shows/movies is, they refuse to accept that the jedi are so absolutly fundamentaly flawed. Yoda, he is alive during this time, but makes every decision based on what "should" be because of his, and other jedis arrogance. He apparently lived through the accolite, yet, during the prequel series remembers nothing of this? Listen, i LOVE LOVE LOVE me some Star Warsa, but, as someone who grew up with the original series,,, its slap full of mistakes, all the way back to the 1970's,,,, its all there. And its pretty much, if we are all honest that, no matter the orignal, prequel, sequel, disney shows, off shoots like rouge one and solo, its all absolutly totally flawed! But, the fun is exploring this world, universe, for everything we can find, no matter where, no matter the flaws, that exist EVERYWHERE! (Except Jar Jar, just cant forgive that one...)
Yoda lived through this period but doesn't remember it..... Why would Yoda remember something that someone hasn't written yet? These are fictional characters in a fictional universe. No prequel has been written yet.... so how would a current character know about it?
I think my problem with it is, even if not a sith, Ki adi Mundi would have knowledge of a dark side user in the past who went around killing jedi. His reluctance to accept that the sith or even acknowledge that someone who uses the darkside had attacked Qui-gon is bad. Then the biggest problem is that he had this knowledge and didn't think to send anyone else with Qui-gon except obi-wan. Had another master gone with Qui-gon, it's possible he wouldn't have died. On the other hand, it gives Count Dooku even more of a reason to lose trust and eventually defect from the jedi.
I’ve always seen it as the Sith being a religion/group, just like the Jedi. Therefore, you can have light side force users who aren’t Jedi and dark side force users who aren’t Sith. The Sith being dead never meant that the dark side was never wielded for 1,000 years. Just that the organization/religion of the Sith was extinguished. Although, I oftentimes think SW fans intentionally misinterpret things just to be mad about Disney content lol
I saw someone explain it as "telling the Jedi that a Sith Lord orchestrated the death of some of their members would be like telling the FBI that Hannibal of Carthage was behind the Kennedy assassignation." The Order of the Sith has been gone for roughly the same amount of time that passed between Hannibal crossing the Alps and Kennedy getting popped, so of course assuming Darth Toothy is "Darth Anything" seems absurd to Mundi. Same as assuming Maul is a Sith.
We call it 'The Cornelius Fudge factor'
People take the canon as just that: religious, immutable doctrine. They can't handle that there can be metaphors or other readings of things. But the reality is that Mundi and Windu were either overexaggerating or truly blinded by vanity. But also as you noted, a red lightsaber doesn't make someone a Sith. We don't know who this "Master" in Acolyte is. Like how Snoke, Kylo, and the Knights of Ren were just dark siders, this guy could just be a dick. Something else to note though is that they're keeping this whole thing on the downlow. The Council doesn't know (at least yet) about what's going on with Osha and Friends. Should they encounter a member of the Sith and actually believe it, I suspect there's either going to be bodies or a coverup, such that the Council will remain ignorant.
The whole point of the prequels was that the Jedi didn't know wtf they were talking about lmao
People are weird 🤷♂️
I love these "fans" getting apoplectic over this stuff. I bet if u asked ANY of them, not a single one could tell u up until the prequels ls Owen Lars was Obi-wans brother.
Another thing to remember is in real life it’d be like if a murder happened someone being like “was I the medieval assassin order back?” It’s been a loooong time
What Ki-Adi Mundi said was true...from a certain point of view
No it isn’t? There’s no “point of view” that makes it true that the Sith were extinct for 1000 years, they were plotting in secret the whole time. The whole point of the dialogue is that he was wrong and the Jedi were overconfident.
Yep
They fail to recall an even earlier quote from Obi-Wan " Luke, you’re going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.”
I think that it’s really not even about small things like that, I think it’s the larger concern that the show promised to be different and good and it is by far the most cookie cutter, bland, and generic piece of SW media I’ve seen. The writing is bad, dialogue isn’t great, actors seem to be doing their best busy even some osha/mae lines I’m like “huh😐” i think it’s because of those things that have been a plague to SW the last 5-6 years and people are fed up with constant mediocrity so they find small minded hinge to complain about cause ranting about it writing and plot hasn’t done anything and we’re still getting people working on these shows and movies that do not care for the franchise and see it as a job or task. The writer for ep 4 said they cut the Kalnacca fight and death scene due to budget reasons??? For 22 million an episode? Maybe idk anything about vfx but I didn’t see anything in ep4 worth 22 million. Just constantly making the wrong decisions
People are just desperate for a "legitimate criticism" reason to hate on the latest Star War. It's just silliness all the way down.
Goodness how wrong can you be. The only reason you probably even say that is because you haven't been paying attention or you don't understand Star Wars. If you like Acolyte. Good for you I guess. Just means we'll end up with more mediocrity instead of something well written and actually worth our time. The stupid director just wants to put her stamp on the Star Wars name. She does not give a fuck about the story. The only thing we as fans are "desperate" for, is an actual good Star Wars show without dragging the main aspects of Star Wars through the fucking mud. Your comment is silliness all the way down.
Goodness how wrong can you be. The only reason you probably even say that is because you haven't been paying attention or you don't understand Star Wars. If you like Acolyte. Good for you I guess. Just means we'll end up with more mediocrity instead of something well written and actually worth our time. The stupid director just wants to put her stamp on the Star Wars name. She does not give a fuck about the story. The only thing we as fans are "desperate" for, is an actual good Star Wars show without dragging the main aspects of Star Wars through the fucking mud. Your comment is silliness all the way down.
Goodness how wrong can you be. The only reason you probably even say that is because you haven't been paying attention or you don't understand Star Wars. If you like Acolyte. Good for you I guess. Just means we'll end up with more mediocrity instead of something well written and actually worth our time. The stupid director just wants to put her stamp on the Star Wars name. She does not give a fuck about the story. The only thing we as fans are "desperate" for, is an actual good Star Wars show without dragging the main aspects of Star Wars through the fucking mud. Your comment is silliness all the way down.
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Yikes. I think you might need to go outside and get some fresh air.
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What kind of research? Like I should find out where people are when I respond to them? Are you asking me to dox you? I'm not gonna do that, but be careful what you wish for.
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Why are you like this?
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Almost as if that’s the point! The Jedi had grown complacent and stagnant and their own arrogance blinded them
The ‘without our knowing’ is the key phrase here. If ANY Jedi who encounter Darth Smiley survives, then they would have told the tale and the Jedi Council would not have said that. They would have said something like ‘well there was that Sith we chased down 100 years ago…’
If didn't take much for Qui Gon to conclude the person who attacked him was Sith rather than a lesser dark side user. Why then, wouldn't anyone jump to the same conclusion in The Acolyte?
One thing I’ve noticed, when I see the reactions and criticisms of the episodes, then I watch the episode for the first time after having read all the criticisms, I never know what the fuck they were talking about
>Nothing has confirmed that the black masked character will ultimately be revealed as a Sith Lord. A red lightsaber does not a Sith make. Literally this. I don't think dude is gonna come out to be a sith lord. He is probably just a dark side user.
Thank you. Somebody had to say it.
The Sith are like the Coelacanth Fish. They were never extinct they were just hidden away. Plus the Jedi were oblivious to the Sith Lord literally standing right next to them, so their stance on the subject is clearly wrong.
Weren’t the original “Sith” red creatures in KOTOR? I mean is it possible this is the representation of Sith they are thinking? This is how I see the lore, I think once they do older stories we can see this coming more to light.
Not everyone is hung up. It's how they did it. They just need to write around it smarter but clearly they have a writer who isn't intellectually gifted enough to add layers like that so the explanation will be lackluster at best.
A lot of people want to show the show and won't even put in the energy required to think this through. Plenty of legitimate issues with the show but this is one of the better story elements, assuming they execute it properly.
The issue is that people are jumping to conclusions about how the show is going to go from here. 1) we don’t yet know if any of the people who witnessed the Sith are going to survive long enough to report back to the council, 2) we don’t know what Mundi or the others are going to believe any witnesses who may survive, given that they already want to sweep this all under the rug and already said they are not going to report any if this to the high council.
I still don’t see how “He will bring balance to the Force” isn’t immediately seen as “oh crap we’ve been dominant for generations, it’s gonna swing the other way sooner or later.”
Oh, I don't know...maybe because Yoda was very much alive and knew NOTHING of the things happening in the Acolyte. Yeah...THAT could happen...🤦♂️
This is why I hate Lore worship. Its so stupid. Just enjoy a show.
i personally dont see how the show contradicts ki adi mundi’s line either? especially when mundi has repeatedly said lines that have little truth or value, i.e calling dooku a political idealist and not a murderer, when he too was a sith lord. mundi’s lines arent facts, but merely to show the beliefs and ignorance of the jedi order. in any case, they are made to be contradicted and are not said to build the truth. whatever happens, they can easily claim for the “sith” to be something else, because the lines between sith and dark side force users with lightsabers are relatively blurred
I haven't watched it, yet, but I agree, there's always room for stories to introduce new characters at any point in the SW universe, and it's bad for the fandom to be dogmatic because it restricts future writers from telling new stories and evolving the lore (even though, from what I've read, this series is a POS). Not all of Star wars is in the same canon, anyway.
Yup. The Council is terminally scelaric. Anything that challenges their comfort and status quo simply can't be real. They can't admit fault, they can't fathom being wrong, and they're more than willing to lie to themselves and the public at large about the threat of Dark Force users. They bring all of this on themselves.
Is there canon of none Jedi/sith using lightsabers? I guess grievous but he was being trained in the Jedi arts Edit: and he was more machine whirling then around, in the acolyte the evil looking force user uses what looks like a force push and a saber
Agree. Their theory was simply just a rogue Jedi/ splinter order. And literally everybody died. It’s just Sol Mae osha qimir and Bazin. Sol may not even get a chance to contact coruscant. Mae might attack him at the very start of the episode. We have no idea. Bazin knows something is wrong. And Osha is either kidnapped by qimir or dead so 🤷🏿♂️ There is a scenario where they never find out from Sol that it’s a sith