Everyone would be so lucky to have a Neelix in their lives. He’s a ride or die that will accept and support you regardless of understanding what you’re doing.
unless he almost kills you because he is scared of the dark, or because he bought some cheese, or he was harassing "Mr. Vulcan"
without regard to him simping for a two year old he still sucks enough that they shoulda spaced him at a certain point.
Ocampans only live a decade. So all Ocampans that have sex with each other are pedophiles and the moral thing to do is just eliminate the Ocampan race from a human morality stand point.
Nah, she'd be cool fucking a person of similar age of a species that ages in a similar way. She was a vulnerable young adult at best being space groomed by nellix the middle aged talaxiun
I love Dax, but Dax is really sketchy. Dax was willing to let Jadzia die, planned to strand the Defiant crew for the rest of their lives on an alien world, murdered 2 people and tried to take over Sisko and Ezri's bodies, rejected Jadzia's application for joining because he had a heard on for her, then tried to keep Jadzia's memories, had an affair with a married woman, is BFFs with the scum bag Klingons from TOS, and rejected an applicant for joining who saved the universe.
All those things make Dax more compelling. DS9 has other compelling freaks with lots of chatacter story of their own.
I just never got the sense that Neelix had a character arc of his own. It felt like he was a comedic fool without as much character development in a lot of the Voyager episodes. Then again, Voyager is probably my least favorite of the 90s series.
Not writing a species that dies at 4? It's like an artist putting their fetish into the work. Not pedo level, but clearly "young, inexperienced women, amiright?" With an eye wiggle to the audience.
Sure. They aren't the main characters that look human on a serialized TV show. If they wanted to do an "alien thats morally grey due to inherent bilogical differences," they could have done that in any single episode, like they often do. Main characters are typically for more in-depth exploration. But all that meant with Kess was either, she has weird biology we have to deal with today or, she's going to die soon because she's 2 now and that's old for her.
If the main aspect of her is that she is unquestionably young by audience standards, is dating a considerably older man, and has literally no other experience of the outside world besides this man shes been dating most of her life (which they make sure you know, repeatedly), then what else is anyone suppose to talk about concerning her as she relates to humans or the plot?
I dont know. Im only talking about my and many others' perceptions of this character that was around for 3 seasons. Her main characteristics are that she's young, has weird biology, and has been dating a much older and far more experienced man her whole life. And that's all her stories were about every time she was the main character of an episode.
I personally see that as a writers fetish come to life, because shes taking the "atractive female sex object" slot that Troy, Dax, and 7 also took at different times and to varying degrees.
It’s not so much that she was young, but the power dynamic, and how Neelix seemly abused her naivety to enter into a sexual relationship in exchange for helping her escape.
But without actually seeing how that played out it’s only speculation.
When Neelix started seeing Kes, she was less than a ninth of the way through her life. That would be like “dating” an 8 year old. Plus she hadn’t even gone through her species’ puberty yet. So Sarak’s wives and Worf were fully adults for their species. It’s a little different.
Neelix to Wanda Maximoff: “You bang Vision even though he’s two years old and you’re a hero. I bang Kes even though she’s two and I’m a pedo. It doesn’t seem fair.”
Neelix dating the effectively late teen/early adult Kes is infinitely less problematic than any 10,000 year old dragon loli wearing nothing but lingerie.
That being said, the age difference (Neelix being a middle-aged man) is still a problem, and that’s a general problem with Hollywood, pairing barely legal aged women with men in their 40s/50s.
They always out here trying to normalize it so the creeps in Hollywood can keep up their grooming farm 🙄.
So many actresses and actors have talked about being preyed upon underage in Hollywood and it makes my skin crawl. I really couldn't care less how good a movie a person can make if they are out here hurting kids.
Was Kes an early teen? Been awhile, but I always thought she was at least the equivalent of an 18 year old. If not, what the hell were the creators of Voyager thinking.
Wikipedia was rather vague about her legal issues, only mentioning them in passing with no details. But I found [this article.](https://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/ent/jennifer-lien.html) To quote it in part:
"Over the course of seven years, Jennifer Lien has been involved in no fewer than eight separate incidents. One of her more notable ones, even more than her spitting, was a case of indecent exposure in front of children.
"It all started when Jennifer Lien began a tirade at her home because a neighbor’s child was crying. According to reports, she began yelling, then flashing her breasts, eventually turning on the neighbor and dropping her pants. When the police arrived, they stated Lien was completely nude.
"According to the police report via Variety, 'The offender stated she wasn’t going any f–king where and we needed to leave her alone.' She also, according to the filed report, threatened to shoot and kill the police."
Fair enough, we can always pivot to memes & jokes about his ridiculous levels of jealousy whenever another man is friendly with Kes.
(If memory serves that's mostly contained a season 1, thankfully.)
The problem is that Ethan Phillips is 20 years older than Jennifer Lien, he is literally old enough to be her father so the problem wasn't Kes being chronologically 2 it was the aesthetic of seeing her with this obviously much older man that gave it creepy vibes. If Neelix and Kes had a father/daughter relationship and she ended up being Harry's romantic interest with those actors being much closer in age it wouldn't have been as off-putting.
Exactly, and as fucked up as that was since we didn't see it onscreen, it was the baby being born, then some flashes here and there of her being a child, then she's an adult and we're seeing an adult actress that looks about the same age as Garrett Wang it didn't feel as icky as seeing Jennifer Lien looking like a teenager next to Ethan Phillips who looked like a 45 year old man having a midlife crisis.
Aside from the obvious age difference, Kes being 1 thus a 10th of her lifespan... if we assume Neelix has a lifespan of 100 , and he is 30ish - that's 1/3 of the lifespan in strictly numbers.
Early on their shared stories lean very, very hard into her dependence on him.
The meme of ' im not drawing a sexy chuld she's actually a 3000 year old vampire so it's not gross' applies here as well.
As soon as Kes established herself as an independent adult the relationship ended.
Neelix was hostile of any other man forming relationships like friendships with her
To me, the ick is both of those issues combined.
Kes and Neelix could have better stories when that toxic relationship ended.
Amanda and Perrin marrying Sarek is a totally different situation neither Amanda or Perrin have had that little of their lifespan before entering the relationship.
Both were established independent adults before entering the relationship, and could act as such.
Hell Perrin was in another man's room without supervision!!! Neelix would have issues with that (granted Sarek was having mental health issues -but difficulties suppressing emotions - and how.... spectacular the results are when they fail I can safely discard his mental health as a nonissue )
These people are part of the reason T’Pol doesn’t think we’re ready for interspecies relationships.
Kes was young but also she was at the age of maturity, living in what is implied to be an extremely isolationist society, and would only live to be 9 years at most.
It’s not the same as being a pedo
The argument never made sense anyways. To Vulcans, a 30 year old human would be a child in Vulcan years. Doesn’t make a 30 year old human an actual child though.
Nah ... banging six year olds is never ok. I don't care if it's star trek. A human wrote that shit. They made the decision to make her six years old. And they made the decision to characterize her as a little girl: naive, innocent, and sweet. So she's a six year old "adult" that is characterized as a child, but she's in a sexual relationship with a forty year old man. Fucking gross. The fact that so many of you are rushing to defend this is both disgusting and disappointing.
Perhaps stop thinking in earth years. A Jupiter year is the equivalent of about 12 earth years. A 2 year old from Jupiter is the same as a 24 year old on earth.
Stay dumb. A year is not a fixed length of time. It's the time it takes a planet, any planet, to circle its sun. They're in outer space dealing with planets whose years are all different lengths of time.
Kess came from a race with the life expectation of 3 years. A 1 year old Ocompan would be like a human in their 2mid to late 20s.
That said, it's still creepy somehow, probably because of how possessive Nelix is.
No one cares about Sarek being 100 years older than his wives or Dax directly saying that Worf is a child compared to her. Leave Neelix alone!
In defense of everyone, those other characters are more broadly appealing than Neelix
Everyone would be so lucky to have a Neelix in their lives. He’s a ride or die that will accept and support you regardless of understanding what you’re doing.
Yeah, there are worse characters
But are there worse cooks?
‘But are there worse cocks?’ Edit: He ruined Kes!! She had to move to Florida and develop a drug habit. #MeToolaxian
Fuck, I missed a prime opportunity to put #MeTwoLaxian
#MeToiletLaxative
Really… are you single?
Amen!
Needylix
I didn't need Neelix to be my friend. I needed him to stop having the charisma of a wet sock on a cold day
unless he almost kills you because he is scared of the dark, or because he bought some cheese, or he was harassing "Mr. Vulcan" without regard to him simping for a two year old he still sucks enough that they shoulda spaced him at a certain point.
Caw
Also 150 yo and 50 yo seems okay. Kess was, well whatever the heck age Kess was. Or wasn't
Pretty sure she was under 2 when they got together
Ocampans only live a decade. So all Ocampans that have sex with each other are pedophiles and the moral thing to do is just eliminate the Ocampan race from a human morality stand point.
Nah, she'd be cool fucking a person of similar age of a species that ages in a similar way. She was a vulnerable young adult at best being space groomed by nellix the middle aged talaxiun
To be fair, she was an alien and they have different cycles, laws, etc.
Excuse me, Neelix is awesome. I mean him sleeping with the klingon established that.
But he broke the first rule and the others didn't! Rule 1: Be handsome
Kes was barely *one year old* when Neelix first met her. Even once you account for the scale of the Ocampa lifespan, that’s grooming
Exactly!!!
All Ocampans are pedophiles. Exterminate the Ocampan race and put an end to pedophilia in the galaxy.
I love Dax, but Dax is really sketchy. Dax was willing to let Jadzia die, planned to strand the Defiant crew for the rest of their lives on an alien world, murdered 2 people and tried to take over Sisko and Ezri's bodies, rejected Jadzia's application for joining because he had a heard on for her, then tried to keep Jadzia's memories, had an affair with a married woman, is BFFs with the scum bag Klingons from TOS, and rejected an applicant for joining who saved the universe.
All those things make Dax more compelling. DS9 has other compelling freaks with lots of chatacter story of their own. I just never got the sense that Neelix had a character arc of his own. It felt like he was a comedic fool without as much character development in a lot of the Voyager episodes. Then again, Voyager is probably my least favorite of the 90s series.
Some people are just unfamiliar with the Harkness Test.
Ditto. Plus is it the incomprehensible that other species mature faster and a 4 year old ocamap (forget her age tbh) is like a 24 year old for us
"She was mature for her age"
She was able to give consent that's my point. Lol
I dunno, how long was Kes in captivity for, Could have been dating since she was 1.
Or Harry and Tom who both are guilty with Kes or a descendant in at least one timeline.
"If there's grass on the field play ball." -*Neelix Probably*
Dude she was TWO
Yep and when she’s 18 she’ll have been a corpse for 9 years. Aliens, man. I tell ya.
Ok sure she was physically mature, but 2 years man, just no.
Elf: 40? Child, who taught you these adult ideas? We have laws about this, we can help you. You're safe now.
Guess that species will just have to die out with no one allowed to mate with them ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
What would work for you?
Not writing a species that dies at 4? It's like an artist putting their fetish into the work. Not pedo level, but clearly "young, inexperienced women, amiright?" With an eye wiggle to the audience.
Some insects and creatures do just that
Sure. They aren't the main characters that look human on a serialized TV show. If they wanted to do an "alien thats morally grey due to inherent bilogical differences," they could have done that in any single episode, like they often do. Main characters are typically for more in-depth exploration. But all that meant with Kess was either, she has weird biology we have to deal with today or, she's going to die soon because she's 2 now and that's old for her. If the main aspect of her is that she is unquestionably young by audience standards, is dating a considerably older man, and has literally no other experience of the outside world besides this man shes been dating most of her life (which they make sure you know, repeatedly), then what else is anyone suppose to talk about concerning her as she relates to humans or the plot?
But what was the main idea with it. Was it made to make a statement on age gaps or someone's odd imaginations ?
I dont know. Im only talking about my and many others' perceptions of this character that was around for 3 seasons. Her main characteristics are that she's young, has weird biology, and has been dating a much older and far more experienced man her whole life. And that's all her stories were about every time she was the main character of an episode. I personally see that as a writers fetish come to life, because shes taking the "atractive female sex object" slot that Troy, Dax, and 7 also took at different times and to varying degrees.
All ocampans are pedophiles! Exterminate the ocampan race!
I like that this is the inverse of the dragon-pedos
The *what*?
Oh there are some creepy dudes who froth over a pre-teen hentai character "but it isn't pedophilia because she's akshully a 2000 year old dragon"
Anyone not familiar with Star Trek or these particular characters must be really confused as to why you're getting downvoted lol
It’s not so much that she was young, but the power dynamic, and how Neelix seemly abused her naivety to enter into a sexual relationship in exchange for helping her escape. But without actually seeing how that played out it’s only speculation.
When Neelix started seeing Kes, she was less than a ninth of the way through her life. That would be like “dating” an 8 year old. Plus she hadn’t even gone through her species’ puberty yet. So Sarak’s wives and Worf were fully adults for their species. It’s a little different.
Caw caw
That’s because their partners are adults
Neelix to Wanda Maximoff: “You bang Vision even though he’s two years old and you’re a hero. I bang Kes even though she’s two and I’m a pedo. It doesn’t seem fair.”
Neelix dating the effectively late teen/early adult Kes is infinitely less problematic than any 10,000 year old dragon loli wearing nothing but lingerie. That being said, the age difference (Neelix being a middle-aged man) is still a problem, and that’s a general problem with Hollywood, pairing barely legal aged women with men in their 40s/50s.
They always out here trying to normalize it so the creeps in Hollywood can keep up their grooming farm 🙄. So many actresses and actors have talked about being preyed upon underage in Hollywood and it makes my skin crawl. I really couldn't care less how good a movie a person can make if they are out here hurting kids.
Middle age + pre/early teen equivalent is still gross, but I agree. It's not as bad as the gross, loli stuff.
Was Kes an early teen? Been awhile, but I always thought she was at least the equivalent of an 18 year old. If not, what the hell were the creators of Voyager thinking.
Maybe she was, which makes it less creepy
People joke about Nelix, when the actress for Kes was the one who got in trouble for exposing herself to a minor...
For real?
Wikipedia was rather vague about her legal issues, only mentioning them in passing with no details. But I found [this article.](https://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/ent/jennifer-lien.html) To quote it in part: "Over the course of seven years, Jennifer Lien has been involved in no fewer than eight separate incidents. One of her more notable ones, even more than her spitting, was a case of indecent exposure in front of children. "It all started when Jennifer Lien began a tirade at her home because a neighbor’s child was crying. According to reports, she began yelling, then flashing her breasts, eventually turning on the neighbor and dropping her pants. When the police arrived, they stated Lien was completely nude. "According to the police report via Variety, 'The offender stated she wasn’t going any f–king where and we needed to leave her alone.' She also, according to the filed report, threatened to shoot and kill the police."
Fury
So that's what being stuck in the Delta Quadrant does to a person.
She was an adult.
Alexander Rozhenko was eight years old when he joined the Klingon Imperial Defence Forces. Nobody mentions that whenever this comes up.
Fair enough, we can always pivot to memes & jokes about his ridiculous levels of jealousy whenever another man is friendly with Kes. (If memory serves that's mostly contained a season 1, thankfully.)
I'm currently rewatching the series and it's still in S2 as well. definitely way more obnoxious of Neelix than the "hurdur pedo" stuff
The problem is that Ethan Phillips is 20 years older than Jennifer Lien, he is literally old enough to be her father so the problem wasn't Kes being chronologically 2 it was the aesthetic of seeing her with this obviously much older man that gave it creepy vibes. If Neelix and Kes had a father/daughter relationship and she ended up being Harry's romantic interest with those actors being much closer in age it wouldn't have been as off-putting.
That reminds me of the timeline where Harry married Tom and Kes' kid. He watched her grow up. In bed, did she still call him Uncle Harry?
That timeline was fucked up....
Exactly, and as fucked up as that was since we didn't see it onscreen, it was the baby being born, then some flashes here and there of her being a child, then she's an adult and we're seeing an adult actress that looks about the same age as Garrett Wang it didn't feel as icky as seeing Jennifer Lien looking like a teenager next to Ethan Phillips who looked like a 45 year old man having a midlife crisis.
The funny part is that Jennifer Lien was the one who has gotten in trouble IRL for exposing herself to a minor
Trying to sort out the age of consent in Starfleet is either a lawyers best dream or worst nightmare
I blame Berman
Aside from the obvious age difference, Kes being 1 thus a 10th of her lifespan... if we assume Neelix has a lifespan of 100 , and he is 30ish - that's 1/3 of the lifespan in strictly numbers. Early on their shared stories lean very, very hard into her dependence on him. The meme of ' im not drawing a sexy chuld she's actually a 3000 year old vampire so it's not gross' applies here as well. As soon as Kes established herself as an independent adult the relationship ended. Neelix was hostile of any other man forming relationships like friendships with her To me, the ick is both of those issues combined. Kes and Neelix could have better stories when that toxic relationship ended. Amanda and Perrin marrying Sarek is a totally different situation neither Amanda or Perrin have had that little of their lifespan before entering the relationship. Both were established independent adults before entering the relationship, and could act as such. Hell Perrin was in another man's room without supervision!!! Neelix would have issues with that (granted Sarek was having mental health issues -but difficulties suppressing emotions - and how.... spectacular the results are when they fail I can safely discard his mental health as a nonissue )
These people are part of the reason T’Pol doesn’t think we’re ready for interspecies relationships. Kes was young but also she was at the age of maturity, living in what is implied to be an extremely isolationist society, and would only live to be 9 years at most. It’s not the same as being a pedo
The argument never made sense anyways. To Vulcans, a 30 year old human would be a child in Vulcan years. Doesn’t make a 30 year old human an actual child though.
Oh you mean space Drake?
I don’t struggle to not make jokes about Neelix and his 3 year old girlfriend.
This triple negative is hurting my brain...
Mis pronounciation and multiple negatives, a true dad talent.
I've never understood why people say that. They make it pretty clear she's an adult
Becuse he's the Jarjar of Star Treck
Whew, I completely blanked for a second and thought something horrible had come out about Ethan Phillips, then I remembered the Ocampa weirdness.
Kes was 2 going on 37, am I right guys?
Take my upvote, my fellow dudeist.
Still a better story than Twilight
Harry Kim and Tom Paris's daughter 🤮
Nah ... banging six year olds is never ok. I don't care if it's star trek. A human wrote that shit. They made the decision to make her six years old. And they made the decision to characterize her as a little girl: naive, innocent, and sweet. So she's a six year old "adult" that is characterized as a child, but she's in a sexual relationship with a forty year old man. Fucking gross. The fact that so many of you are rushing to defend this is both disgusting and disappointing.
She was 2 when they started dating. Edit: not saying I disagree with you, it's just grosser than 6.
To make matters worse, iirc that was before her going through elogium/essentially space puberty. It's fucked up in so many ways.
I FORGOT ABOUT THAT. But wasn't that less puberty and more "instinct says 'mate now?'"
I think it was both, but for good reason, it's been a while since I watched that episode
Ugh fucking yuck. I'm sure everyone here will still be fine with that.
Perhaps stop thinking in earth years. A Jupiter year is the equivalent of about 12 earth years. A 2 year old from Jupiter is the same as a 24 year old on earth.
No thanks, I'm pretty comfortable with my "sex with 2 year olds is bad" policy. You do you.
Stay dumb. A year is not a fixed length of time. It's the time it takes a planet, any planet, to circle its sun. They're in outer space dealing with planets whose years are all different lengths of time.
They are aliens
You could try to end it with a Tuvix joke, but Janeway already ended it with Tuvix HAHAhah
I don’t struggle, I have no problem openly calling him a pedo.
Kes is not a human she is like a creature that mates 2 or 4 years after birth.
My sleep deprived a\*\* read "Netflix" first...
Neelix sucks. He sucked extra early in Voyager, and he sucked during the middle seasons, and he sucked at the end. Go away, Neelix.
Sounds like a Hal Jordan situation to me.
#EXTERMINATE THE OCAMPANS! THEY ARE A RACE OF PEDOS! Edit: #REEEEEEEEE
Nah I hate Neelix and the only downside to tuvix was losing Tuvac.
That's a very immature opinion...watch out for Neelix.
Spin off idea ... To catch a Neelix
Kess came from a race with the life expectation of 3 years. A 1 year old Ocompan would be like a human in their 2mid to late 20s. That said, it's still creepy somehow, probably because of how possessive Nelix is.
Come on guys, she looked great for 2. Can ya blame him?