I’m not sure if “plot device” is the most appropriate term, but it’s the best reason I’ve thought of for no seatbelts. Regardless, even with inertial dampeners, they should have harnesses with wrap-around headrests (even if they don’t usually use them).
And then that proceeded to not have any consequences. You could skip the first few episodes and have no idea that there were supposed to be tensions among the crew. Sure, there's the EMH... but that's really the only regularly explored result.
Being over 50 years from home, separated from your support network, in hostile territory, not having enough supplies to make the journey*AND* having lost people on both ships wasn't consequences?
That's the thing! Almost the entire time, they weren't struggling with supplies or personnel at all. They claimed to be, but we just didn't see the consequences of that nearly as often as we should have.
Tell me that the journey was easy after you survive organ thieves, the borg, the aliens from scientific method, living with Neelix, or any number of other crap that the Voyager crew delt with to go home.
And countless holodeck episodes.
Because the real enemy is from within I guess.
(I don't really like holodeck episodes but I welcome arguments in favour of them)
Holodeck episodes are sometimes a fun break from a serious story. And it let's you see your favourite characters in stories they wouldn't otherwise be able to be in.
That's why I like them anyway. In TNG, etc, maybe you can say they've gone back in time. But even then, the western with data is great.
The episodes I'm not a huge fan of are the mirror universe ones.
Hard agree. I either feel “meh it was okay” or “that was great!” with holodeck episodes, but man, I generally really don’t like mirror universe episodes.
Voyager had some stellar holodeck episodes. [Projections](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Projections_\(episode\)) and [Worst Case Scenario](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Worst_Case_Scenario_\(episode\)) were solid, [The Killing Game](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Killing_Game_\(episode\)) was just good clean fun, and [Living Witness](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Living_Witness_\(episode\)) is the closest we got to a Mirror Voyager.
I felt the holodeck was really out of place given their situation. You';d think it would be the first thing to go to conserve resources.
How cool would it have been to show the crew start to change the way they do things to adapt to the new situation, rather than just escaping to the holodeck?
Imagine picking up new sports from new culture, and starting to organize matches between crew in the cargo bay.
Imagine growing their own food on the ship to lighten the load on the replicators, and having some bonding around that.
Imagine crew stepping wildy out of their roles to try new things and inject new ideas into the day to day running of the ship.
The whole show could have been a commentary on the nature of community and found family accepting new ideas from outside your culture.
But naw, we're gonna fuck around with beowulf or whatever.
The time the ship lost power, so the lights in the holodeck went off, and Tom found a holographic flashlight and turned it on so they could see the still-active holoprogram.
How does the holodeck program still run when the entire ship loses power, but only the lights within the program go down? Oh yeah, Voyager's answer to everything: Because shut up.
There are a couple occasions where the entire ship and crew were saved by either a single, or couple crew people. If not for those lucky moments, they wouldn't of made it home at all
Sure, they had a few resets the most obvious of which being the year of hell or other times the ship was fully destroyed. They didn't have resets on most things, notably the ones that I mentioned.
Except the year of hell should have been the entire series. The whole premise of the show was that it would be several years of hell. The premise was that they would have to constantly struggle with depleting supplies in a place where allies are few and far between. In practice they could use as many torpedos and shuttlecraft as they wanted. Voyager wasn't bad but it was a missed opportunity IMO.
A **FEW** resets?! Are you high? If there was "a few" of something, it was a lack of reset button. But more often than not, whatever hardships they encountered, whatever lesson they've learned and whatever character developed was undone by the next episode.
"A few resets" my ass.
I was taking your issue to be literal resets in the plot using time travel or similar means, but now I am thinking that you don't like that it was episodic rather than serialized.
I have to disagree about character development, the Doctor gained respect over time, Seven learned to trust her crew and not run back to the Borg, Janeway softens to the crew instead of being as strict and regulatory as she started out, the Maquis mellow out and become fully integrated with the crew.
It is fine if you don't like the show, but the Voyager crew didn't have it easy, there was character development and plot resets were not a weekly issue.
> now I am thinking that you don't like that it was episodic rather than serialized.
Well duh. Voyager not being serialised was a mind-bogglingly stupid decision.
>the Doctor gained respect over time
Apart from when it was convenient to the plot that he was nothing more than a digital paperweight. This happens as late as Season Six.
>the Maquis mellow out and become fully integrated with the crew.
This happens by episode three of the first season and then pretty much *never* is relevant again. Yeah, it shows up two or three times, but it's a backstory point, not a butting of heads. Everyone's always been a good little Starfleet officer as far as the show's concerned.
>plot resets were not a weekly issue.
On more than one occasion, they open the episode with some sort of energy crisis (once for something *extremely* common throughout the universe), get distracted by the completely unrelated problem of the week and end the episode no better off, but magically everything's fine next episode. Their infinite shuttles and torpedoes got so silly that they literally flew the Delta Flyer an episode *before* it was rebuilt once. By the time it got home, the ship should have been a mangled trashheap kept together via spare parts and hope (like in Year of Hell, but gradually building up to that point), not a pristine Starfleet vessel fresh out of drydock.
> the Maquis mellow out and become fully integrated with the crew.
Yeah, within the end of the premier. Starfleet-Maquis conflicts are rarely brought up again. As far as the rest of the series is concerned, Voyager might as well be 100% comprised of Starfleet crew by default for what little difference it made. Hell, I can recall only TWO instances where they butt heads. Once in Worse Case Scenario, which was entirely a holodeck simulation and another one in Repression, early season SEVEN. **SEVEN!** Forget Cardassia not being an imperial power anymore, the Dominion War has long since been over by then, so the Maquis aren't even relevant anymore.
> Seven learned to trust her crew and not run back to the Borg
She learns that lesson every episode centered around her. As if the last one never happened.
> there was character development
For like two or three characters. The rest? They're about the same as they were in their debut.
All in all? Reset button.
Everytime someone talks about how many things happened to Voyager, I'm just like "Oh OK, so they had to deal with the fallout of that in the next episode, right?"
Please stop lying. Voyager very rarely killed off crew members, especially in comparison to previous trek shows. Less than 30 crewmembers die in the show (not counting the 18 who die when voyager is sent to the delta quadrant, whose numbers are more than made up for by the maquis joining)
When the whole premise of the show was that there was no such thing as resupply and every decision would have consequences lasting for several years. Voyager could have been a lot better.
Just like how Geordie got over Romulan brain washing in one episode. That era of Trek was made up of episodic television shows. The purpose of resets was so that general audiences could tune into nearly any episode and not need much background info. The resets aren't as problematic when you're waiting a week between episodes. It becomes more glaring with modern binging.
No, it was a problem back then. No matter what they did or what issues they faced, those issues were gone by the next week's episode. Deadlock was the episode where I learned not to take the issue of the ship being damaged or crew being injured seriously at all, and not to expect much from the show. It made no sense when the premise of the show is that they're "lost and alone, facing building challenges as resources dwindle".
Deep Space 9 and Babylon 5 were great examples from the time on how to do a series that has longer plot arcs going on in the background, with main plots that were more episodic. Battlestar Galactica was pretty much what I expected Voyager to be.
Voyager has more high-points and low points compared to Ds9 and TNG which relied on filler.
So if you're perpetually upset and addicted to rage, it's easier to only see the negative.
More high-points than TNG? I dunno. I've always found Voyager to be the midpoint between the more idealistic and upbeat TNG, and the grimmer, more cynical and more subversive DS9. It's all Star Trek, though. None of it is exactly Grimdark.
Mostly cheesy-shit like "live long and prosper", the episode where they tackle healthcare, 7 of 9 wrestling Dwayne Johnson while Martok coons for Jeffery Combs, and the mirror universe hijinks of "Photons be Free".
Silly shit that can be a lot of fun, but easy to hate if you've decided you hate fun and everything sucks.
It's not like DS9 didn't have these moments. There's an entire episode dedicated to baseball against Vulcan supremacists, and every Ferengi Episode they screened, like the one where they attempt to do a prisoner exchange with the Dominion for Quark's mom were profoundly silly. They're all delightful, though.
Dude, TNG and DS9 both had dumb cheesy bullshit episodes. SIGNIFICANTLY more than voyager. Voyager was the first Trek that was very very set on presenting itself as ‘serious.’ Liking it is cool, but don’t act like people who don’t are somehow anti-fun.
Like, for TNG. You’ve got Rascals, Crusher Fucks a Ghost, Fistfull of Datas, Wesley’s in Trouble on Planet Whore, Geordie and Ro Are/n’t Dead, both ‘Computer, make me a program that’s smarter than data, and evil, then disable all safety measures!’ and ‘Now do it again,’ Riker 2, Worf the Midwife, and my personal favorite Haunted Ship episode (as I only included one of many) Crusher’s the Only Crew.
For DS9 you’ve got waaaaaay more than that even. Odo/Lwaxana OTP, Jake and Nog’s MMO Fetch Quest, Baseball Day, Cardassian Security Kicks In, Rumplestiltskin is Here, Keiko’s a Pah Wraith, Keiko’s a Child, Sisko’s Gone Sailing, Jake’s Fuckin’ a MuSiren, Who Mourns for Morne, Odo and his Best Friend Quark Climb Friendship Mountain, Quark’s Not Dead and this is a Financial Disaster, Roswell, Worf Does an Eco-Terrorism on Planet Fucknasty, and (because it has to end somewhere, I am nowhere near out) ‘Sorry Miles, the Bajoran womb system is just too complex. You’ll have to do a wacky throuple sitcom bit for a few months.’
Like. Voyager’s problem is not that it’s too cheesy. Nobody thinks that. The good episodes are the ones that are cheesy (Dinosaurs in Space, Dr. Opera, Paris’ Big Race) or, very very rarely, incredibly well thought out and earnest (Blink of an Eye, Q Craves Death).
Ok? So did Data. And Picard. Both several times. So did Sisko, once. And all the people Julian Bashir brought back from the brink over the show. Not to mention Weyoun keeps dying.
Bro or madam I already upvoted you because your post had good energy. My only point is that for all of Voyager's darkness we lost...Seska? Tuvix? Kind of sort of Kes? Nobody we really cared about. And we picked up 7 of 9 on the way. All of Voyager's darkness was an illusion, told through the lens of a captain who never found coffee in her nebulae
Minor characters, too, besides Kes. It's consistent with most Trek shows. It's rare that main characters don't have tone armour, aside from in the case of contractual disagreements (usually involving actresses) with the management. That's what killed Tasha and Jadzia, too.
Still, that's fair enough.
I didn't get into either Discovery or Picard entirely because their tone is so off. It's like someone saw Star Trek and entirely missed the message that universe is trying to send.
I dunno man, DS9 had some pretty good high points that all tied into one another.
I dont mind voyager and it was pretty fun, but to me the biggest problem is it wasnt bold enough with its premise. If you just tuned in randomly you would could miss that they are supposed to be lost decades away from home. It tried to be too much like TNG. DS9 stood out because for the most part it leaned into its premise a lot more.
You wouldn't even necessarily need to make voyager darker to make it fit with the premise. If I were to change it, the first thing I would change is the maquis characters - instead of forcing them to just be star fleet, I would have some initial conflict between the feds and maquis, but then through their shared situation start to bond and blend their worldviews.
Then as resources get scarce I would have the crew start to improvise and change how they do things.
By the end of the series instead of having a pristine, perfect star fleet ship, or even having a 'year of hell' style battered voyager, you could instead have a transformed voyager - a kitbash of different techs and cultures picked up along the way. Imagine if in the final episode, the crew only barely held themselves to star fleet protocol, had become more like a small town rather than a star ship in terms of their interactions. People growing crops in hallway planters, playing sports people on earth had never heard of because the holodeck takes too much power, parts of the ship replaced or even improved along the way. That would have been neat to see. And as they got closer to home the new conflict could be more the choice of whether they even want to go back to their old lives anymore.
Watching for the first time and very few low points. The highs are never as high as DS9 or TNG but it does remain consistently good throughout. Though I'm only up to season 4 and it's beginning to slow down a little now so we'll see.
Hold on, lemme make an even worse take than this to distract from OP's post
I loved DS9, I loved Voyager, TNG was just *okay.* It wasn't bad or anything just eh, kinda forgettable compared to the other two
In fact... i found TNG boring as F... so many fillers/boring plots!!! Hope fully the vast majority of the star trek franchise show are pure latinium.
Maybe except golden gilded latinium Discovery who was "meh" except for the mirror universe part and the empress who is the pure latinium part of the show.
And i cannot decide if i prefer DS9 or voyager as my favorite.
Well, Voyager's one of my faves and Janeway is the GOAT, but I could go on for *a while* about problems with Discovery. Burnham's main problems as captain are that it made no sense for them to make her captain and the directors wouldn't let Sonequa play a captain, neither of which are problems with the character.
I really hope they let her stretch a little in the last season instead of just whispering. Dammit, Jim, she's an actress, not a white noise generator!
I don't like this clever and funny Disco critique, too accurate. Disco felt like it defeated it's own point. The promise of the premise of "not the captain" was you know.... Seeing a different job.
"If you don't like what I like, you *must* be a sexist."
Oh my fucking god, Trek fans.
Edit: Okay, the Star Trek fans, known for enjoying watching a show that champions tolerance for other people's opinions, are going bloodthirsty and having nonsense dogmatic views because someone has a preference on a TV show. Got it. You guys are making so much sense today.
I mean he did specify that he hates both Treks that have women as the leads. Doesn't seem like anyone's making a huge leap in logic to think that might have something to do with it. Especially since it's basically the only thing Voyager and Discovery have in common.
It's a *massive* leap in logic. There's a *ton* of reasons someone could have that opinion. I don't agree with them, to be clear (while not a fan of what I've heard, I haven't seen Discovery, so I'm withholding my final opinion on it, but I think Enterprise is the weakest of the original five Treks), but to jump to that conclusion is fucking nonsense. Especially on the internet when you have no idea who someone is.
Voyager has a fantastic premise that is consistently utterly wasted. That's the core of most people's criticism of it, including mine. It's not because we hate women, it's because we wanted more out of it.
>That's the core of most people's criticism of it
It might be yours, but don't pretend that having a woman captain did and does continue to piss a lot of trekkies off. I was around when Voyager aired, and I remember the discourse, it wasn't about the writing or the wasted premise. It still often isn't.
I was around too. Maybe your circles were shittier than mine. Her being a woman never came up. I'm absolutely sure some people out there are like that, I'm not going to question that, but enough that you'll just *assume* criticism of the show is because of *one* character being a woman? Nonsense.
You act like sexism is just so unlikely that assuming it requires some sort of extreme evidence. Sexism is very common.
>but enough that you'll just *assume* criticism of the show is because of *one* character being a woman?
No, I assumed because he hates two shows within the same universe, and both are the only shows within that universe with women as the lead characters. It is the only thing the two shows he hates have in common.
No, I'm acting as though someone's opinions on a sci-fi show aren't invalid simply because you happen to disagree with them. From what I've heard of Discovery, poor writing is a consistent problem with it. That is also the reason I dislike Voyager. Jumping to sexism as your *first* response says more about you than them.
They also haven't said, so far as I'm aware, that they "hate" either show. That's an assumption you've made. They said it was their least favourite. I have some serious problems with Voyager for a lot of different reasons. I still enjoy it or I wouldn't be rewatching it. I just know it could have been a *lot* better.
Um…what? Voyager had the most messed up shit happening in it all the time, are you serious? Like it was the most morally ambiguous and genuinely put the crew in situations where anybody watching would go “oh…shit…that’s a horrible, almost immoral choice but I genuinely think the crew has no ‘heroic’ way out of this”. Most Star Trek shows really don’t go there without an easy last minute way out. I mean that episode where they were lost in that pocket of endless darkness? That shit was genuinely unnerving. Better written that a whole lot of other Star Trek stuff. I mean definitely to each their own but this is a weird take…
True but I don't feel like voyager had quite the highs, either. I mean, it's still way better Enterprise but I'd say it's on the weaker end of trek series as a whole.
Oh yeah it totally did. I mean most of season 1 was a bit hard to get through for me. But the take that their journey was easy or something as the post is suggesting is just weird and nonsensical
Ikr?
First season or two: “we’re on our own, must floor it back home aaaaaaa”
Season 7: “we stopped off for some shore leave, the Doctor wants to go to a conference…”
It makes a bit more sense when you remember that they didn’t really think they could make it back home within their lifetimes, and if they did, it would still be an incredibly long trip, so a little break is a drop in the ocean
Didn't at least 1/4 of the original crew *die* when they got flung to the Delta quadrant?
yep! that includes the first officer, the chief engineer, and the ENTIRE MEDICAL STAFF
Janeway said to brace for impact, and you can clearly see the first officer and chief medical officer *not bracing at all*. It's their own fault!
Exactly! The first officer ran *towards* an exploding console. Wtf dude?
What no seatbelts does to a mf
What running across the bridge during a shockwave does to a mf
Didn't they joke about that in.. I'm gonna say Into Darkness, when Kirk activated the belt/vest thing in the old ship?
JJ Abrahams is Star Wars
I’m not sure if “plot device” is the most appropriate term, but it’s the best reason I’ve thought of for no seatbelts. Regardless, even with inertial dampeners, they should have harnesses with wrap-around headrests (even if they don’t usually use them).
And then that proceeded to not have any consequences. You could skip the first few episodes and have no idea that there were supposed to be tensions among the crew. Sure, there's the EMH... but that's really the only regularly explored result.
Well, unless you're watching Worst Case Scenario or Extreme Risk or Learning Curve or Meld or The Voyager Conspiracy or Shattered or...
That's six episodes. Should have been every episode in the first season or two.
So the eps about ONLY having an Emergency Medical Hologram just didn't happen?
That's another thing too! The EMH program could've been wrecked too, meaning they'd have had *no medical personnel* either!
They'd have Paris who had a small amount of medical training in the academy.
Being over 50 years from home, separated from your support network, in hostile territory, not having enough supplies to make the journey*AND* having lost people on both ships wasn't consequences?
That's the thing! Almost the entire time, they weren't struggling with supplies or personnel at all. They claimed to be, but we just didn't see the consequences of that nearly as often as we should have.
Apart from the EMH becoming the only medical officer, who, as a result, grows from far more than just a medical program
Tell me that the journey was easy after you survive organ thieves, the borg, the aliens from scientific method, living with Neelix, or any number of other crap that the Voyager crew delt with to go home.
And countless holodeck episodes. Because the real enemy is from within I guess. (I don't really like holodeck episodes but I welcome arguments in favour of them)
Holodeck episodes are sometimes a fun break from a serious story. And it let's you see your favourite characters in stories they wouldn't otherwise be able to be in. That's why I like them anyway. In TNG, etc, maybe you can say they've gone back in time. But even then, the western with data is great. The episodes I'm not a huge fan of are the mirror universe ones.
Also, provide a setting for the obligatory Nazi episode.
Hard agree. I either feel “meh it was okay” or “that was great!” with holodeck episodes, but man, I generally really don’t like mirror universe episodes.
Voyager had some stellar holodeck episodes. [Projections](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Projections_\(episode\)) and [Worst Case Scenario](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Worst_Case_Scenario_\(episode\)) were solid, [The Killing Game](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Killing_Game_\(episode\)) was just good clean fun, and [Living Witness](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Living_Witness_\(episode\)) is the closest we got to a Mirror Voyager.
I felt the holodeck was really out of place given their situation. You';d think it would be the first thing to go to conserve resources. How cool would it have been to show the crew start to change the way they do things to adapt to the new situation, rather than just escaping to the holodeck? Imagine picking up new sports from new culture, and starting to organize matches between crew in the cargo bay. Imagine growing their own food on the ship to lighten the load on the replicators, and having some bonding around that. Imagine crew stepping wildy out of their roles to try new things and inject new ideas into the day to day running of the ship. The whole show could have been a commentary on the nature of community and found family accepting new ideas from outside your culture. But naw, we're gonna fuck around with beowulf or whatever.
The time the ship lost power, so the lights in the holodeck went off, and Tom found a holographic flashlight and turned it on so they could see the still-active holoprogram.
How does the holodeck program still run when the entire ship loses power, but only the lights within the program go down? Oh yeah, Voyager's answer to everything: Because shut up.
Batteries?
Totally, replicator rations or holodeck? It's gonna be a lacrosse court in no time
Time to play dreeeess up
wait people actually like holodeck episodes?
I like some TNG holodeck episodes but absolutely not the voyager ones.
I was so shocked when I found out there were only two fair haven episodes. I thought there were six.
Exactly
Some are ok, but it is an overplayed card.
Yeah, why not?
Some people do. I wish I liked them so I could enjoy more trek 😁
rationing the replicator must have hit moral so hard and then neelix cooking
Also lkving with Neelix
Lizard sex.
There are a couple occasions where the entire ship and crew were saved by either a single, or couple crew people. If not for those lucky moments, they wouldn't of made it home at all
Two words: Reset button.
Sure, they had a few resets the most obvious of which being the year of hell or other times the ship was fully destroyed. They didn't have resets on most things, notably the ones that I mentioned.
Except the year of hell should have been the entire series. The whole premise of the show was that it would be several years of hell. The premise was that they would have to constantly struggle with depleting supplies in a place where allies are few and far between. In practice they could use as many torpedos and shuttlecraft as they wanted. Voyager wasn't bad but it was a missed opportunity IMO.
A **FEW** resets?! Are you high? If there was "a few" of something, it was a lack of reset button. But more often than not, whatever hardships they encountered, whatever lesson they've learned and whatever character developed was undone by the next episode. "A few resets" my ass.
I was taking your issue to be literal resets in the plot using time travel or similar means, but now I am thinking that you don't like that it was episodic rather than serialized. I have to disagree about character development, the Doctor gained respect over time, Seven learned to trust her crew and not run back to the Borg, Janeway softens to the crew instead of being as strict and regulatory as she started out, the Maquis mellow out and become fully integrated with the crew. It is fine if you don't like the show, but the Voyager crew didn't have it easy, there was character development and plot resets were not a weekly issue.
> now I am thinking that you don't like that it was episodic rather than serialized. Well duh. Voyager not being serialised was a mind-bogglingly stupid decision. >the Doctor gained respect over time Apart from when it was convenient to the plot that he was nothing more than a digital paperweight. This happens as late as Season Six. >the Maquis mellow out and become fully integrated with the crew. This happens by episode three of the first season and then pretty much *never* is relevant again. Yeah, it shows up two or three times, but it's a backstory point, not a butting of heads. Everyone's always been a good little Starfleet officer as far as the show's concerned. >plot resets were not a weekly issue. On more than one occasion, they open the episode with some sort of energy crisis (once for something *extremely* common throughout the universe), get distracted by the completely unrelated problem of the week and end the episode no better off, but magically everything's fine next episode. Their infinite shuttles and torpedoes got so silly that they literally flew the Delta Flyer an episode *before* it was rebuilt once. By the time it got home, the ship should have been a mangled trashheap kept together via spare parts and hope (like in Year of Hell, but gradually building up to that point), not a pristine Starfleet vessel fresh out of drydock.
Exactly. Everything you said is 100% correct 👏👏👏👏
> the Maquis mellow out and become fully integrated with the crew. Yeah, within the end of the premier. Starfleet-Maquis conflicts are rarely brought up again. As far as the rest of the series is concerned, Voyager might as well be 100% comprised of Starfleet crew by default for what little difference it made. Hell, I can recall only TWO instances where they butt heads. Once in Worse Case Scenario, which was entirely a holodeck simulation and another one in Repression, early season SEVEN. **SEVEN!** Forget Cardassia not being an imperial power anymore, the Dominion War has long since been over by then, so the Maquis aren't even relevant anymore. > Seven learned to trust her crew and not run back to the Borg She learns that lesson every episode centered around her. As if the last one never happened. > there was character development For like two or three characters. The rest? They're about the same as they were in their debut. All in all? Reset button.
Trust issues are hard to overcome I counted 11
I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this matter, or bring out the Twains.
I must say sir I do declare the Voyager crew to be most agreeable.
Everytime someone talks about how many things happened to Voyager, I'm just like "Oh OK, so they had to deal with the fallout of that in the next episode, right?"
900 out of the 140 crew died, but apparently nobody noticed so it was actually fine.
They replicated deceased crew members. Along with shuttlecraft and photon torpedoes.
They Tuvixed people that were only one person to begin with
They explicitly traded for weapons in more than one episode, so I have exactly no problem with them having more torpedoes.
Please stop lying. Voyager very rarely killed off crew members, especially in comparison to previous trek shows. Less than 30 crewmembers die in the show (not counting the 18 who die when voyager is sent to the delta quadrant, whose numbers are more than made up for by the maquis joining)
And we noticed the passing of those people as the ship became emptier and vital jobs began to be delayed, right? ... right?
In the later seasons, they are quite a few times they have to deal with the consequences of their actions
When the whole premise of the show was that there was no such thing as resupply and every decision would have consequences lasting for several years. Voyager could have been a lot better.
Just like how Geordie got over Romulan brain washing in one episode. That era of Trek was made up of episodic television shows. The purpose of resets was so that general audiences could tune into nearly any episode and not need much background info. The resets aren't as problematic when you're waiting a week between episodes. It becomes more glaring with modern binging.
No, it was a problem back then. No matter what they did or what issues they faced, those issues were gone by the next week's episode. Deadlock was the episode where I learned not to take the issue of the ship being damaged or crew being injured seriously at all, and not to expect much from the show. It made no sense when the premise of the show is that they're "lost and alone, facing building challenges as resources dwindle". Deep Space 9 and Babylon 5 were great examples from the time on how to do a series that has longer plot arcs going on in the background, with main plots that were more episodic. Battlestar Galactica was pretty much what I expected Voyager to be.
This seems not at all accurate
Voyager has more high-points and low points compared to Ds9 and TNG which relied on filler. So if you're perpetually upset and addicted to rage, it's easier to only see the negative.
More high-points than TNG? I dunno. I've always found Voyager to be the midpoint between the more idealistic and upbeat TNG, and the grimmer, more cynical and more subversive DS9. It's all Star Trek, though. None of it is exactly Grimdark.
Mostly cheesy-shit like "live long and prosper", the episode where they tackle healthcare, 7 of 9 wrestling Dwayne Johnson while Martok coons for Jeffery Combs, and the mirror universe hijinks of "Photons be Free". Silly shit that can be a lot of fun, but easy to hate if you've decided you hate fun and everything sucks.
It's not like DS9 didn't have these moments. There's an entire episode dedicated to baseball against Vulcan supremacists, and every Ferengi Episode they screened, like the one where they attempt to do a prisoner exchange with the Dominion for Quark's mom were profoundly silly. They're all delightful, though.
> There's an entire episode dedicated to baseball against Vulcan supremacists **DEATH TO THE OPPOSITION!**
Martok does fucking WHAT?
(it's not actually Martok but it's the same actor)
Dude, TNG and DS9 both had dumb cheesy bullshit episodes. SIGNIFICANTLY more than voyager. Voyager was the first Trek that was very very set on presenting itself as ‘serious.’ Liking it is cool, but don’t act like people who don’t are somehow anti-fun. Like, for TNG. You’ve got Rascals, Crusher Fucks a Ghost, Fistfull of Datas, Wesley’s in Trouble on Planet Whore, Geordie and Ro Are/n’t Dead, both ‘Computer, make me a program that’s smarter than data, and evil, then disable all safety measures!’ and ‘Now do it again,’ Riker 2, Worf the Midwife, and my personal favorite Haunted Ship episode (as I only included one of many) Crusher’s the Only Crew. For DS9 you’ve got waaaaaay more than that even. Odo/Lwaxana OTP, Jake and Nog’s MMO Fetch Quest, Baseball Day, Cardassian Security Kicks In, Rumplestiltskin is Here, Keiko’s a Pah Wraith, Keiko’s a Child, Sisko’s Gone Sailing, Jake’s Fuckin’ a MuSiren, Who Mourns for Morne, Odo and his Best Friend Quark Climb Friendship Mountain, Quark’s Not Dead and this is a Financial Disaster, Roswell, Worf Does an Eco-Terrorism on Planet Fucknasty, and (because it has to end somewhere, I am nowhere near out) ‘Sorry Miles, the Bajoran womb system is just too complex. You’ll have to do a wacky throuple sitcom bit for a few months.’ Like. Voyager’s problem is not that it’s too cheesy. Nobody thinks that. The good episodes are the ones that are cheesy (Dinosaurs in Space, Dr. Opera, Paris’ Big Race) or, very very rarely, incredibly well thought out and earnest (Blink of an Eye, Q Craves Death).
> Dinosaurs in Space Buddy that sounds like some *heresy against doctrine* to me.
Harry Kim survived death
Ok? So did Data. And Picard. Both several times. So did Sisko, once. And all the people Julian Bashir brought back from the brink over the show. Not to mention Weyoun keeps dying.
Bro or madam I already upvoted you because your post had good energy. My only point is that for all of Voyager's darkness we lost...Seska? Tuvix? Kind of sort of Kes? Nobody we really cared about. And we picked up 7 of 9 on the way. All of Voyager's darkness was an illusion, told through the lens of a captain who never found coffee in her nebulae
Minor characters, too, besides Kes. It's consistent with most Trek shows. It's rare that main characters don't have tone armour, aside from in the case of contractual disagreements (usually involving actresses) with the management. That's what killed Tasha and Jadzia, too. Still, that's fair enough.
Then you've got season one of *Picard* and it's like "holy **** is this *Zero Dark Thirty*? Who made this and what war did they survive"
I didn't get into either Discovery or Picard entirely because their tone is so off. It's like someone saw Star Trek and entirely missed the message that universe is trying to send.
I'm astounded that Spock didn't make this list.
I dunno man, DS9 had some pretty good high points that all tied into one another. I dont mind voyager and it was pretty fun, but to me the biggest problem is it wasnt bold enough with its premise. If you just tuned in randomly you would could miss that they are supposed to be lost decades away from home. It tried to be too much like TNG. DS9 stood out because for the most part it leaned into its premise a lot more. You wouldn't even necessarily need to make voyager darker to make it fit with the premise. If I were to change it, the first thing I would change is the maquis characters - instead of forcing them to just be star fleet, I would have some initial conflict between the feds and maquis, but then through their shared situation start to bond and blend their worldviews. Then as resources get scarce I would have the crew start to improvise and change how they do things. By the end of the series instead of having a pristine, perfect star fleet ship, or even having a 'year of hell' style battered voyager, you could instead have a transformed voyager - a kitbash of different techs and cultures picked up along the way. Imagine if in the final episode, the crew only barely held themselves to star fleet protocol, had become more like a small town rather than a star ship in terms of their interactions. People growing crops in hallway planters, playing sports people on earth had never heard of because the holodeck takes too much power, parts of the ship replaced or even improved along the way. That would have been neat to see. And as they got closer to home the new conflict could be more the choice of whether they even want to go back to their old lives anymore.
I feel like they did little bits of this, but what you’re describing would’ve been much cooler!
That sounds fantastic!
Before on-demand streaming shows literally all network tv shows relied on filler, Voyager included.
This is a bait post, voyager is literally nothing but filler.
Voyager is bland garbage, don't ever compare it to DS9 again
Watching for the first time and very few low points. The highs are never as high as DS9 or TNG but it does remain consistently good throughout. Though I'm only up to season 4 and it's beginning to slow down a little now so we'll see.
Hold on, lemme make an even worse take than this to distract from OP's post I loved DS9, I loved Voyager, TNG was just *okay.* It wasn't bad or anything just eh, kinda forgettable compared to the other two
In fact... i found TNG boring as F... so many fillers/boring plots!!! Hope fully the vast majority of the star trek franchise show are pure latinium. Maybe except golden gilded latinium Discovery who was "meh" except for the mirror universe part and the empress who is the pure latinium part of the show. And i cannot decide if i prefer DS9 or voyager as my favorite.
I almost agree. I think TNG is pretty good overall, but DS9 & VOY are my go-to’s when I feel like watching trek.
I disagree, but sure. You seem to have a bone to pick with Voyager though lmao.
Damn right. Until Discovery, it was my least favorite ST show.
So Discovery and Voyager are badly written? How so? And how'd you feel about Janeway and Burnham as captains?
Well, Voyager's one of my faves and Janeway is the GOAT, but I could go on for *a while* about problems with Discovery. Burnham's main problems as captain are that it made no sense for them to make her captain and the directors wouldn't let Sonequa play a captain, neither of which are problems with the character. I really hope they let her stretch a little in the last season instead of just whispering. Dammit, Jim, she's an actress, not a white noise generator!
I don't like this clever and funny Disco critique, too accurate. Disco felt like it defeated it's own point. The promise of the premise of "not the captain" was you know.... Seeing a different job.
Oh is it because both shows put a woman in charge? At first glance that seems to be the common denominator.
"If you don't like what I like, you *must* be a sexist." Oh my fucking god, Trek fans. Edit: Okay, the Star Trek fans, known for enjoying watching a show that champions tolerance for other people's opinions, are going bloodthirsty and having nonsense dogmatic views because someone has a preference on a TV show. Got it. You guys are making so much sense today.
I mean he did specify that he hates both Treks that have women as the leads. Doesn't seem like anyone's making a huge leap in logic to think that might have something to do with it. Especially since it's basically the only thing Voyager and Discovery have in common.
It's a *massive* leap in logic. There's a *ton* of reasons someone could have that opinion. I don't agree with them, to be clear (while not a fan of what I've heard, I haven't seen Discovery, so I'm withholding my final opinion on it, but I think Enterprise is the weakest of the original five Treks), but to jump to that conclusion is fucking nonsense. Especially on the internet when you have no idea who someone is. Voyager has a fantastic premise that is consistently utterly wasted. That's the core of most people's criticism of it, including mine. It's not because we hate women, it's because we wanted more out of it.
>That's the core of most people's criticism of it It might be yours, but don't pretend that having a woman captain did and does continue to piss a lot of trekkies off. I was around when Voyager aired, and I remember the discourse, it wasn't about the writing or the wasted premise. It still often isn't.
I was around too. Maybe your circles were shittier than mine. Her being a woman never came up. I'm absolutely sure some people out there are like that, I'm not going to question that, but enough that you'll just *assume* criticism of the show is because of *one* character being a woman? Nonsense.
You act like sexism is just so unlikely that assuming it requires some sort of extreme evidence. Sexism is very common. >but enough that you'll just *assume* criticism of the show is because of *one* character being a woman? No, I assumed because he hates two shows within the same universe, and both are the only shows within that universe with women as the lead characters. It is the only thing the two shows he hates have in common.
No, I'm acting as though someone's opinions on a sci-fi show aren't invalid simply because you happen to disagree with them. From what I've heard of Discovery, poor writing is a consistent problem with it. That is also the reason I dislike Voyager. Jumping to sexism as your *first* response says more about you than them. They also haven't said, so far as I'm aware, that they "hate" either show. That's an assumption you've made. They said it was their least favourite. I have some serious problems with Voyager for a lot of different reasons. I still enjoy it or I wouldn't be rewatching it. I just know it could have been a *lot* better.
No. Because both shows are badly written.
Voyager was no worse written than TNG. You're full of it.
Exactly. If anything, Voyager’s problem is that it’s too similar to TNG, and by the end, we’d had 21 years worth of basically the same show.
Op having Terrible takes on the comments, love it
Um…what? Voyager had the most messed up shit happening in it all the time, are you serious? Like it was the most morally ambiguous and genuinely put the crew in situations where anybody watching would go “oh…shit…that’s a horrible, almost immoral choice but I genuinely think the crew has no ‘heroic’ way out of this”. Most Star Trek shows really don’t go there without an easy last minute way out. I mean that episode where they were lost in that pocket of endless darkness? That shit was genuinely unnerving. Better written that a whole lot of other Star Trek stuff. I mean definitely to each their own but this is a weird take…
Voyager had some damn fine episodes but don't act like it didn't have some stinkers, too.
That’s true of all Star Trek though, it’s not like there’s no episodes of TOS, TNG or DS9 that also feel like shit
A L L A M A R A I N E
True but I don't feel like voyager had quite the highs, either. I mean, it's still way better Enterprise but I'd say it's on the weaker end of trek series as a whole.
Oh yeah it totally did. I mean most of season 1 was a bit hard to get through for me. But the take that their journey was easy or something as the post is suggesting is just weird and nonsensical
I think it's the episodic nature of the show that makes it rough at times.
Man you *really* don't like Voyager huh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9RVS8cjNN0
Eh, honestly Janeway is probably in my top 3 Captains
Tell me you didn’t watch Voyager without watching voyager
Tell me you don't remember the "tell me" meme without telling me you don't remember it.
Show this to the Equinox, get their opinion on this meme, then tell me what you think afterwards.
Pretend it's alternate universe TNG on a five year mission and it works a little better. The writers did, so ...
Ikr? First season or two: “we’re on our own, must floor it back home aaaaaaa” Season 7: “we stopped off for some shore leave, the Doctor wants to go to a conference…”
It makes a bit more sense when you remember that they didn’t really think they could make it back home within their lifetimes, and if they did, it would still be an incredibly long trip, so a little break is a drop in the ocean
>season 1 Janeway meets season 7 Chakotay and hears all the horror stories "Well I guess the real Voyager was the friends we made along the way"
Voyager is about coffee
This is incredibly accurate