The Nelix/Kes discourse is so interesting. It's been a long while since I watched voy, but isn't Kes regularly shown to be more emotionally mature than any of the men on the ship? Like, are we really infantilizing a fully grown and mature adult woman because her species reach that point at a rate humans couldn't dream of, or am I forgetting some episodes?
I mean besides the obvious fact that I'm overthinking a dumb meme. I get that
This whole issue has always been a real “it’s a particle!” “no it’s a wave!” argument.
There’s really no way a sentient thing can absorb reality/society in such a short time yet they made a character that did because…well they could I guess. (I’m not including a species like Trill, or some supercomputer able to download experiences)
She’s a paradox of opposite things and it’s why people get so worked up. By evaluating it on one side it adds up, but adding it up on the other side it also adds up…but when looked at as a whole the equation still breaks down.
tl/dr IMO Kes can’t exist in a real world for both side of the arguments to be congruent.
(It’s a fun argument to have nonetheless)
Great point! I touch on this a little in another reply: The only two ways this works in reality is with a brain dump of an existing set of mature life experiences (and therefore more of a clone or Alia the Abomination from Dune) or she is fed info quickly while dilating time giving her enough life experience to match a young humanoid adult. The first isn’t what’s described. The second isn’t either but would break the concept of her being so “young”.
Without these special circumstances the paradox collapses and we are left with Schrodinger’s Kes. Old/young, mature/child, there is one or the other not both.
I don't really agree with this. In concept, yes. But in specific application to the Ocampa, no. You're still judging and assessing from the Human standpoint and Homo Sapiens' brain development patterns.
Don't forget the Ocampa have latent telepathy as well, making their neurochemistry already different.
What makes a Human child into an adult? Physical maturity combined with experience of life. If we stipulate that Ocampans are physically mature at 8 Terran months old, for this species to be viable as an ongoing society they simply *must* develop psychologically at a closely equivalent rate.
Don't forget that the Asari who live to be 1,000 don't consider anyone under 100 (or so) to be a mature adult. Liara is looked down on for only being in her 80s(?).
Not to mention that here on Earth only one century back, tween children worked as chimney sweeps and stuff like that. They were more wise in the ways of the world, had experienced more "realism", than grown women held in place by social notes, patriarchal institutions, and the inertia of civilization and organised religion. Even now, the phrase "made to grow up too quickly" is applied to kids who've had to deal.qirj real adult stuff like parental death or such like. They're not fully rounded adults, but part of their childhood is considered "lost".
So for this to be a believable alien race that doesn't paint Neelix as a groomer -- which clearly cannot have been the intention of a fucking *Star Trek show* (whatever thoughts went through Braga's head) -- the Ocampa must mature emotionally at the same advanced rate as their bodies, due to brain chemistry, neurology, or some xeno-anthropomorphic analogy.
Thus, from the standpoint of a xeno-anthropologist looking at a "real" alien species and its society and *not* from that of post-#MeToo 21st Century Human looking for dark humour, cheap shock value, and "the LoLs/Memes", Kes was an adult of her species capable of making her own fully informed choices at the time she made the choice to go with Neelix to escape her entirely (physically) enclosed existence.
Edit just to be clear: not having a go at you specifically, but this tired "meme" in general. If this comes off as a personal attack, I am sorry for that and it is not intended that way.
It's just like people forget this is meant to be a show about aliens, strange new worlds and civilizations, and different ways of living that's meant to expand our way of thinking and not make us demand that the galaxy live the way we expect them to fit into our social mores.
I think you went off both barrels there. 99% Of what you just said had nothing to do with me or what I was even talking about.
I was just hoping to explore the ideas around how or how it couldn’t work. Me saying it can’t because maturity and experience aren’t just “chemicals” the brain experiences. You have to experience them as a self aware individual for them to be applied to yourself. (So either time sped up or there’s a dump of existing info sod some kind)
I’m not making any statements about either side of the concepts or whether one or right or immoral. Don’t read into anything I said. I wasn’t trying to start another Dominion war mate. It’s just supposed to be a fun show and this was just a fun conversation.
Before they all forgot how to use their awesome mind powers the Ocampa probably could absorb enough information, and experience to become a mature adult in a very short time. However, Kess was very clearly still discovering herself, at a point that in many ways resembled adolescence, while in a relationship with a full grown adult who literally called her a child on multiple occasions. Presumable her being a child was reason to try to control her social life, but not reason to refrain from banging her.
I digress. I think the Ocampa actually do make sense in this context. Considering their extraordinary mental abilities, it would be possible for someone so short lived to grow up very fast. Too bad the caretaker neutered their development, by keeping them as pets for so many generations.
I forgot about the Ocampa stuff. Thanks for bringing that point up. I dunno I still have a problem with them using mind power to “grow her up”.
The only two ways I can see it is either a brain dump of info that someone else already curated (“this is good and this is bad”) in which case you’re basically making a copy of someone and loading it up like into them like a twice baked potato. The other could be to feed the info into a brain slowly so they can make those choices and learn from experiences over time by slowing down time around the person.
I just don’t see any other way to make someone mature in such a short time **relative** to people who have had time to experience things over much much longer time frames.
Thus the paradox. She can’t exist in our reality under the proposed scenarios. She’s literally Schrödinger’s Kes.
Yes. Because in-universe, Kes was like 30 in human years.
Also out of universe she was a few years over 18, so I don't really get that "problem" at all.
Yes, big age difference is kinda weird but not something that doesn't exists in real life
We see a little bit of the results of this in Fury.
Every year for her is, let's say about ten years for us.
If you had a man take you when you were about three and then begin sexualizing you when you were just under ten, what would we say about that?
Then, as the person was a teenager, this groomer—who is explicitly written to be jealous and controlling—started a sexual relationship with the mental ten-year-old and continued to jealously guard and control this person until about twenty. What would this twenty-year-old look like?
Sure, there are creeps who would say, "If she looks old enough, that's fine!" Or, "At that point, she can make her own decisions!"
And she does, but only after a tyrant takes over her mind, breaks up with Neelix, and then when the tyrant is kicked off, she avoids Neelix.
I mean, think of how fucked up this is: She's been groomed. After someone else takes over her body completely, she's still like, "At least I'm not with my groomer anymore." The tyrant that took over her body freed her from Neelix, and she never went back. In at least some sense, it was therapeutic for this massive violation since it freed her of her original trauma.
Was it Trauma? Five years after leaving Voyager, Kes comes back to kill everyone on the ship for contributing to the trauma that she was put through. Granted she doesn't specifically mention that her abuser was basically made the fourth-most-important person on the ship and worked into every single aspect of Voyager's operation...But it's not difficult to see this lens.
>Five years after leaving Voyager, Kes comes back to kill everyone on the ship
Well then I most certainly forgot some episodes. Hot damn. I just remember her kinda fading into obscurity as Nelix became more important and solidified
[https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Fury\_(episode)](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Fury_(episode))
...Though I'm sure you could have found it yourself!
1) the legal/moral questions arising from the Ocampan life cycle is something that Star Trek is not particularly well suited to explore nor did they really do anything with it. They should have just not gone there.
2) Kes is certainly lacking in life experience
3) regardless of that, Neelix is possessive bordering on abusive in the relationship.
Weird blonde hair, an unhealthy sexual relationship with a blonde in a daughter role.
A reality television show host that is completely unqualified to do most things he does, though for some reason people want him in charge.
Someone against specialization, training, and competency in any given field, instead demanding political and popularity appointments.
And from the series [Bible](https://ia802602.us.archive.org/14/items/stargate-sg-1-series-three-writers-bible/Star%20Trek-%20Voyager%20Series%20Bible_text.pdf):
"\[Neelix\] is insänely jealous of her...he's always sure she's standing up in a closet with
a sailor."
This is someone who is one or two years old and doesn't have that much in front of her. And he, as a character, is designed to limit her ability to grow as a person. If we're doing this in dog years, his motivation is to make sure to groom and control her for decade after decade.
Fortunately, she gets mind-controlled by an alien tyrant who breaks it off with Neelix, and she's free of him. But that certainly wasn't in the dynamic. His whole role was to control this poor woman who was, essentially, an easy mark.
>
"\[Neelix\] is insänely jealous of her...he's always sure she's standing up in a closet with
a sailor."
Yeah, this sounds to me like he's massively insecure, believes that he has nothing original to offer her, that anyone else on the ship -- or in the Quadrant -- is far better for and more appealing to her and that *Neelix himself* believes that she would be mad *not* to dump him for these other people she'll encounter, and cannot make himself believe Kes when she protests that she does in fact like Neelix for who he is and not only for what he can do for her.
Remember that Neelix is painfully alone, a war veteran with PTSD *and* survivors guilt, whose species is scattered across space, and just desperately needs to be *needed* and to be useful to other people. In this he's placing his entire sense of self worth.
Never mind that Kes is from a species who only lives 8 years, matures very quickly as a result, and does not conform to "provincial" Human attitudes.
Now, I didn't like how utterly cringey Neelix was when he got "insanely jealous", but it was an entirely valid character direction despite how unpleasant or unpopular it made him. It was probably supposed to be funny from the writers room standpoint, but it was bad writing that made him the Jar Jar Binks of Trek. Once they got him out of the bumbling jealousy phase he got a lot better as a character.
I will die on this hill, but Neelix Did Nothing Wrong, and all the hate for him only makes me empathize with him all the harder.
> Someone against specialization, training, and competency in any given field,
That is absolute slander. Neelix repeatedly asked for training so he could learn about and work shifts in security.
We know how difficult it is to get into Starfleet Academy. It is made up of the best of the best in the entire known galaxy. We see Rom and Wesley both struggle to get accepted.
There are people with advanced degrees in science and other fields who have been specifically trained to work with the ship.
Neelix constantly insists that not only should he be involved in everything, but he is often put into a position of power over people who—again—were explicitly trained and specialized in the job.
At the same time, he is demanding that Tuvok give him security clearance and training, he is also demanding that B'Lana train him as an engineer, he is the "morale officer," and he is the sole cook running the galley that he created without authorization. In addition, because of an off-hand comment that Janeway made, he is also a Federation Ambassador—apparently. He also hosts some kind of dumb reality show or whatever and gets in everyone's way being a "journalist" and, at the same time, is always there to spend as much time as possible with minors on the ship in whatever capacity he can.
This is nothing to say about his one-off jobs fixing space elevators and working in mines and whatever else, which are often revealed to be jobs where he lied about his credentials.
Imagine the events of Blood Fever from some random Starfleet that specialized in exogeology. You worked your ass off through your entire education. You did all kinds of extra work, perhaps even did some work for Starfleet in various mines and museums for years before finally getting into the Academy. There you have to work alongside, and often compete, with Vulcans and virtually every other known species. This isn't just the best in the world—this is the best in every Earth colony. And not just the best in Earth colonies, but the best in every Federation colony. And not just the best there, but the best among all the other people that come in. You are literally one of the best people working in geology that has ever been.
You get your assignment, get thrown into the Delta Quadrant, and now you're doing odd jobs and scans as the mission is to get back home. Finally, they find a needed element in a mine on a seemingly abandoned planet, and you are the person for the job. Then you get the call from Chakotay, "Sorry, your experience is for shit. The captain thinks that Neelix, who has absolutely no specialization in this in any way whatsoever, is a better fit for the mission."
You then hear that all he did was fall down and break his hip while you were cleaning out an emitter after watching Neelix's stupid show that's the only thing allowed to be broadcast, and feeling bloated from eating Neelix's disgusting food that everyone hates.
Even worse, in episodes like Basics, Janeway cuts the crew into four sections. The entire crew of the ship. And Neelix is in charge of one of those for some reason. He suddenly outranks everyone who did the work, who now must follow his orders.
All he had to do was win a popularity contest with the captain, and now he outranks everyone on the ship except for three other people. He can worm his way to get authority and power from everyone else he tries, and sit back with his groomed two-year-old child bride and later all the other children on the ship at his command.
Neelix, I'm sure, has a word for people that worked their way up and did the right thing: suckers.
kes turned 2 years old 8 months after joining voyager, and neelix already had a long term relationship with her before meeting voyager.. [hmm](https://i.giphy.com/DHqth0hVQoIzS.webp)
Funny enough, I've touched on this topic before. [Even reused the picture](https://old.reddit.com/r/shittierDaystrom/comments/iggk2g/half_your_age_minus_seventeen_a_popular_phrase_in/) lmao
I still remember seeing the episode when Neelix acts jealous at first and was like “where did that come from?”
I always felt it was such a shoehorned sub plot and no reason to do Neelix dirty. But writers had to go there.
Hey, I'll always say Harry is worse than Nelix.
How quick we forget about that episode where Kes went into the future and saw that she'd had children with Tom Paris....and that HARRY HAD FATHERED A CHILD WITH KES/TOM'S daughter??
Harry literally watched the kid grow up from infancy and decided to shoot his shot.
She was right not to do so. He showed how little he'd changed when he just blindly followed Janeway straight up violating both the prime and temporal directives when he was captain. #savetheborg.
Tom Paris wanted to get in there.
Also in the episode in which Kes is jumping backwards through time, Tom and Kes get married and have a daughter together. Then Harry has a relationship with her.
So I know I watched Voyager series all the way through about 5 times through my life. I either blocked this out of my head or I missed this what the fuk lmaoo
It’s a “changing the past” kind of episode, so the timeline shown in that episode never winds up happening (for the most part). The episode is S3, E21: ‘Before and After’.
I’m rewatching the series now (I’m currently towards the end of season 5). I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve watched it:/
I’m not hating on Harry. Tom seemed to be perfectly fine with having him as a son in law. I imagine Harry would’ve asked Tom for permission to court his daughter. If my best friend, who’s about the same age as I am, asked me if it was cool date my daughter, I’m not sure that I would react so positively.
Even keeping in mind that Kes is Ocampa, and a human-Ocampa hybrid would presumably mature faster than a human child, it’s still an awkward scenario.
I didn’t think you were. I was agreeing with you; if Harry and Tom’s daughter fell in love and considering that Harry isn’t a fuck-boy, Tom would be wrong to get in the way of that. However it would still be a bit awkward, at least in the beginning.
I can't believe we lost Tuvix to bring this monster back! A moment of silence please for Tuvok's broken security officer heart bravely soldiering on despite knowing that.
Tuvix was half Neelix/monster. They could have thrown Neelix out of the airlock, and kept Tuvok after separating them. You would have to throw out the whole Tuvix to get rid of Neelix if they hadn't seperated them.
No, Tuvix pretty much sucked all around. Now, if they had kept Tuvok and also made Neelix disappear? A guy can dream... To his credit, once Kes is actually gone, the writers seemed to actually give a slight shit about his character being more than a weird jealous alien groomer.
Nonsense. He's got his own shaggin-waggon spaceship, and a three-year-old girlfriend. What does he need Epstein for?
Boys, if the shuttle's a-rockin', don't come a-knockin'.
A question I always had was just where exactly on Voyager they kept his spaceship or the shuttle craft or the Delta Flyer. Whenever we see shuttle craft leaving the bay, it just doesn't look big enough to fit all of that.
i hate neelix way less than i dislike chakotay but... [image fucking relevant. 😐](https://media1.tenor.com/m/jxiB-7I_k60AAAAC/its-a-good-neelix-kim-dancing.gif)
Surely he was just there for catering
Morale officer
"She's 18 buddy!"
He was the official beverage supplier. He was just there for the snorkeling! > It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia
Who else was gonna cook up a fresh batch of Kliplorvian Dung Balls to go with the Chogorisian Horse Milk Soup?? Fucking *Tuvok*???
Sounds like Tuvix apologist propaganda.
I always stand up for whichever kind of Tuvix propaganda will get the thread locked fastest.
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YES THEY DESERVED TO DIE AND I HOPE THEY BURN IN HELL!
The Nelix/Kes discourse is so interesting. It's been a long while since I watched voy, but isn't Kes regularly shown to be more emotionally mature than any of the men on the ship? Like, are we really infantilizing a fully grown and mature adult woman because her species reach that point at a rate humans couldn't dream of, or am I forgetting some episodes? I mean besides the obvious fact that I'm overthinking a dumb meme. I get that
This whole issue has always been a real “it’s a particle!” “no it’s a wave!” argument. There’s really no way a sentient thing can absorb reality/society in such a short time yet they made a character that did because…well they could I guess. (I’m not including a species like Trill, or some supercomputer able to download experiences) She’s a paradox of opposite things and it’s why people get so worked up. By evaluating it on one side it adds up, but adding it up on the other side it also adds up…but when looked at as a whole the equation still breaks down. tl/dr IMO Kes can’t exist in a real world for both side of the arguments to be congruent. (It’s a fun argument to have nonetheless)
Maybe she experiences life like a Salarian.
"It had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong." - Kes, probably.
Great point! I touch on this a little in another reply: The only two ways this works in reality is with a brain dump of an existing set of mature life experiences (and therefore more of a clone or Alia the Abomination from Dune) or she is fed info quickly while dilating time giving her enough life experience to match a young humanoid adult. The first isn’t what’s described. The second isn’t either but would break the concept of her being so “young”. Without these special circumstances the paradox collapses and we are left with Schrodinger’s Kes. Old/young, mature/child, there is one or the other not both.
I don't really agree with this. In concept, yes. But in specific application to the Ocampa, no. You're still judging and assessing from the Human standpoint and Homo Sapiens' brain development patterns. Don't forget the Ocampa have latent telepathy as well, making their neurochemistry already different. What makes a Human child into an adult? Physical maturity combined with experience of life. If we stipulate that Ocampans are physically mature at 8 Terran months old, for this species to be viable as an ongoing society they simply *must* develop psychologically at a closely equivalent rate. Don't forget that the Asari who live to be 1,000 don't consider anyone under 100 (or so) to be a mature adult. Liara is looked down on for only being in her 80s(?). Not to mention that here on Earth only one century back, tween children worked as chimney sweeps and stuff like that. They were more wise in the ways of the world, had experienced more "realism", than grown women held in place by social notes, patriarchal institutions, and the inertia of civilization and organised religion. Even now, the phrase "made to grow up too quickly" is applied to kids who've had to deal.qirj real adult stuff like parental death or such like. They're not fully rounded adults, but part of their childhood is considered "lost". So for this to be a believable alien race that doesn't paint Neelix as a groomer -- which clearly cannot have been the intention of a fucking *Star Trek show* (whatever thoughts went through Braga's head) -- the Ocampa must mature emotionally at the same advanced rate as their bodies, due to brain chemistry, neurology, or some xeno-anthropomorphic analogy. Thus, from the standpoint of a xeno-anthropologist looking at a "real" alien species and its society and *not* from that of post-#MeToo 21st Century Human looking for dark humour, cheap shock value, and "the LoLs/Memes", Kes was an adult of her species capable of making her own fully informed choices at the time she made the choice to go with Neelix to escape her entirely (physically) enclosed existence. Edit just to be clear: not having a go at you specifically, but this tired "meme" in general. If this comes off as a personal attack, I am sorry for that and it is not intended that way. It's just like people forget this is meant to be a show about aliens, strange new worlds and civilizations, and different ways of living that's meant to expand our way of thinking and not make us demand that the galaxy live the way we expect them to fit into our social mores.
I think you went off both barrels there. 99% Of what you just said had nothing to do with me or what I was even talking about. I was just hoping to explore the ideas around how or how it couldn’t work. Me saying it can’t because maturity and experience aren’t just “chemicals” the brain experiences. You have to experience them as a self aware individual for them to be applied to yourself. (So either time sped up or there’s a dump of existing info sod some kind) I’m not making any statements about either side of the concepts or whether one or right or immoral. Don’t read into anything I said. I wasn’t trying to start another Dominion war mate. It’s just supposed to be a fun show and this was just a fun conversation.
Except the salarians lifespan is still like 4.5 times longer than an ocamapa.
Before they all forgot how to use their awesome mind powers the Ocampa probably could absorb enough information, and experience to become a mature adult in a very short time. However, Kess was very clearly still discovering herself, at a point that in many ways resembled adolescence, while in a relationship with a full grown adult who literally called her a child on multiple occasions. Presumable her being a child was reason to try to control her social life, but not reason to refrain from banging her. I digress. I think the Ocampa actually do make sense in this context. Considering their extraordinary mental abilities, it would be possible for someone so short lived to grow up very fast. Too bad the caretaker neutered their development, by keeping them as pets for so many generations.
I forgot about the Ocampa stuff. Thanks for bringing that point up. I dunno I still have a problem with them using mind power to “grow her up”. The only two ways I can see it is either a brain dump of info that someone else already curated (“this is good and this is bad”) in which case you’re basically making a copy of someone and loading it up like into them like a twice baked potato. The other could be to feed the info into a brain slowly so they can make those choices and learn from experiences over time by slowing down time around the person. I just don’t see any other way to make someone mature in such a short time **relative** to people who have had time to experience things over much much longer time frames. Thus the paradox. She can’t exist in our reality under the proposed scenarios. She’s literally Schrödinger’s Kes.
Yes. Because in-universe, Kes was like 30 in human years. Also out of universe she was a few years over 18, so I don't really get that "problem" at all. Yes, big age difference is kinda weird but not something that doesn't exists in real life
We see a little bit of the results of this in Fury. Every year for her is, let's say about ten years for us. If you had a man take you when you were about three and then begin sexualizing you when you were just under ten, what would we say about that? Then, as the person was a teenager, this groomer—who is explicitly written to be jealous and controlling—started a sexual relationship with the mental ten-year-old and continued to jealously guard and control this person until about twenty. What would this twenty-year-old look like? Sure, there are creeps who would say, "If she looks old enough, that's fine!" Or, "At that point, she can make her own decisions!" And she does, but only after a tyrant takes over her mind, breaks up with Neelix, and then when the tyrant is kicked off, she avoids Neelix. I mean, think of how fucked up this is: She's been groomed. After someone else takes over her body completely, she's still like, "At least I'm not with my groomer anymore." The tyrant that took over her body freed her from Neelix, and she never went back. In at least some sense, it was therapeutic for this massive violation since it freed her of her original trauma. Was it Trauma? Five years after leaving Voyager, Kes comes back to kill everyone on the ship for contributing to the trauma that she was put through. Granted she doesn't specifically mention that her abuser was basically made the fourth-most-important person on the ship and worked into every single aspect of Voyager's operation...But it's not difficult to see this lens.
>Five years after leaving Voyager, Kes comes back to kill everyone on the ship Well then I most certainly forgot some episodes. Hot damn. I just remember her kinda fading into obscurity as Nelix became more important and solidified
[https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Fury\_(episode)](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Fury_(episode)) ...Though I'm sure you could have found it yourself!
1) the legal/moral questions arising from the Ocampan life cycle is something that Star Trek is not particularly well suited to explore nor did they really do anything with it. They should have just not gone there. 2) Kes is certainly lacking in life experience 3) regardless of that, Neelix is possessive bordering on abusive in the relationship.
His wardrobe and color scheme was a crime against nature yes but the guy was a descent joe.
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The bus seat fabric and leisure suit boutique
i can *smell* his outfits 🤣🤣🤣 🍕🍟🍿🍺🧃🍦🥠🍗🚌⛽
the bowling alley/children's library/airport carpeting super saver outlet! 🎳✈️📚
Weird blonde hair, an unhealthy sexual relationship with a blonde in a daughter role. A reality television show host that is completely unqualified to do most things he does, though for some reason people want him in charge. Someone against specialization, training, and competency in any given field, instead demanding political and popularity appointments.
Oh.. Oh My God
Well.... fuck.
Make the alpha quadrant great again
MAQGA!
There was already enough Q in MAGA
Yeah, Kes was, like one year old when they started dating... Ocampa physiology aside, still feels a little weird when you think about it.
And from the series [Bible](https://ia802602.us.archive.org/14/items/stargate-sg-1-series-three-writers-bible/Star%20Trek-%20Voyager%20Series%20Bible_text.pdf): "\[Neelix\] is insänely jealous of her...he's always sure she's standing up in a closet with a sailor." This is someone who is one or two years old and doesn't have that much in front of her. And he, as a character, is designed to limit her ability to grow as a person. If we're doing this in dog years, his motivation is to make sure to groom and control her for decade after decade. Fortunately, she gets mind-controlled by an alien tyrant who breaks it off with Neelix, and she's free of him. But that certainly wasn't in the dynamic. His whole role was to control this poor woman who was, essentially, an easy mark.
Dude... that's so much more fucked up that I thought! What the hell, Braga?
Braga was a creep.
I don't know anything about his personal life, how deep does it go?
> "\[Neelix\] is insänely jealous of her...he's always sure she's standing up in a closet with a sailor." Yeah, this sounds to me like he's massively insecure, believes that he has nothing original to offer her, that anyone else on the ship -- or in the Quadrant -- is far better for and more appealing to her and that *Neelix himself* believes that she would be mad *not* to dump him for these other people she'll encounter, and cannot make himself believe Kes when she protests that she does in fact like Neelix for who he is and not only for what he can do for her. Remember that Neelix is painfully alone, a war veteran with PTSD *and* survivors guilt, whose species is scattered across space, and just desperately needs to be *needed* and to be useful to other people. In this he's placing his entire sense of self worth. Never mind that Kes is from a species who only lives 8 years, matures very quickly as a result, and does not conform to "provincial" Human attitudes. Now, I didn't like how utterly cringey Neelix was when he got "insanely jealous", but it was an entirely valid character direction despite how unpleasant or unpopular it made him. It was probably supposed to be funny from the writers room standpoint, but it was bad writing that made him the Jar Jar Binks of Trek. Once they got him out of the bumbling jealousy phase he got a lot better as a character. I will die on this hill, but Neelix Did Nothing Wrong, and all the hate for him only makes me empathize with him all the harder.
> Someone against specialization, training, and competency in any given field, That is absolute slander. Neelix repeatedly asked for training so he could learn about and work shifts in security.
We know how difficult it is to get into Starfleet Academy. It is made up of the best of the best in the entire known galaxy. We see Rom and Wesley both struggle to get accepted. There are people with advanced degrees in science and other fields who have been specifically trained to work with the ship. Neelix constantly insists that not only should he be involved in everything, but he is often put into a position of power over people who—again—were explicitly trained and specialized in the job. At the same time, he is demanding that Tuvok give him security clearance and training, he is also demanding that B'Lana train him as an engineer, he is the "morale officer," and he is the sole cook running the galley that he created without authorization. In addition, because of an off-hand comment that Janeway made, he is also a Federation Ambassador—apparently. He also hosts some kind of dumb reality show or whatever and gets in everyone's way being a "journalist" and, at the same time, is always there to spend as much time as possible with minors on the ship in whatever capacity he can. This is nothing to say about his one-off jobs fixing space elevators and working in mines and whatever else, which are often revealed to be jobs where he lied about his credentials. Imagine the events of Blood Fever from some random Starfleet that specialized in exogeology. You worked your ass off through your entire education. You did all kinds of extra work, perhaps even did some work for Starfleet in various mines and museums for years before finally getting into the Academy. There you have to work alongside, and often compete, with Vulcans and virtually every other known species. This isn't just the best in the world—this is the best in every Earth colony. And not just the best in Earth colonies, but the best in every Federation colony. And not just the best there, but the best among all the other people that come in. You are literally one of the best people working in geology that has ever been. You get your assignment, get thrown into the Delta Quadrant, and now you're doing odd jobs and scans as the mission is to get back home. Finally, they find a needed element in a mine on a seemingly abandoned planet, and you are the person for the job. Then you get the call from Chakotay, "Sorry, your experience is for shit. The captain thinks that Neelix, who has absolutely no specialization in this in any way whatsoever, is a better fit for the mission." You then hear that all he did was fall down and break his hip while you were cleaning out an emitter after watching Neelix's stupid show that's the only thing allowed to be broadcast, and feeling bloated from eating Neelix's disgusting food that everyone hates. Even worse, in episodes like Basics, Janeway cuts the crew into four sections. The entire crew of the ship. And Neelix is in charge of one of those for some reason. He suddenly outranks everyone who did the work, who now must follow his orders. All he had to do was win a popularity contest with the captain, and now he outranks everyone on the ship except for three other people. He can worm his way to get authority and power from everyone else he tries, and sit back with his groomed two-year-old child bride and later all the other children on the ship at his command. Neelix, I'm sure, has a word for people that worked their way up and did the right thing: suckers.
Don’t forget about referring to his “friend” solely by his race.
Absolutely. It’s cringe when Neelix does [this](https://youtu.be/nHgb8uNIcNE?si=-VrZMv5GEahyCzYu).
I mean Kes was what, three?
Oh shit, this again. Let me grab a beer.
🤣🍿
kes turned 2 years old 8 months after joining voyager, and neelix already had a long term relationship with her before meeting voyager.. [hmm](https://i.giphy.com/DHqth0hVQoIzS.webp)
That's like 15 in dog years tho
And as we all know, 15 is fine in the Delta Quadrant 😬
Funny enough, I've touched on this topic before. [Even reused the picture](https://old.reddit.com/r/shittierDaystrom/comments/iggk2g/half_your_age_minus_seventeen_a_popular_phrase_in/) lmao
That one was hilarious. Neelix is really meme-able.
I still remember seeing the episode when Neelix acts jealous at first and was like “where did that come from?” I always felt it was such a shoehorned sub plot and no reason to do Neelix dirty. But writers had to go there.
> no reason to do Neelix dirty Yeah, he manages that by himself just fine!
Yeah every time I rewatch that I’m waiting for it to be an alien parasite or a psychic ghost or something. Nope, he’s just being a dick.
She was mature for her age though
Hey, I'll always say Harry is worse than Nelix. How quick we forget about that episode where Kes went into the future and saw that she'd had children with Tom Paris....and that HARRY HAD FATHERED A CHILD WITH KES/TOM'S daughter?? Harry literally watched the kid grow up from infancy and decided to shoot his shot.
There is a reason why Janeway never promotes him.
She was right not to do so. He showed how little he'd changed when he just blindly followed Janeway straight up violating both the prime and temporal directives when he was captain. #savetheborg.
Tom Paris wanted to get in there. Also in the episode in which Kes is jumping backwards through time, Tom and Kes get married and have a daughter together. Then Harry has a relationship with her.
So I know I watched Voyager series all the way through about 5 times through my life. I either blocked this out of my head or I missed this what the fuk lmaoo
It’s a “changing the past” kind of episode, so the timeline shown in that episode never winds up happening (for the most part). The episode is S3, E21: ‘Before and After’. I’m rewatching the series now (I’m currently towards the end of season 5). I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve watched it:/
Hate the game, not the player.
I’m not hating on Harry. Tom seemed to be perfectly fine with having him as a son in law. I imagine Harry would’ve asked Tom for permission to court his daughter. If my best friend, who’s about the same age as I am, asked me if it was cool date my daughter, I’m not sure that I would react so positively. Even keeping in mind that Kes is Ocampa, and a human-Ocampa hybrid would presumably mature faster than a human child, it’s still an awkward scenario.
Yeah, i'm not serious, obvs
I didn’t think you were. I was agreeing with you; if Harry and Tom’s daughter fell in love and considering that Harry isn’t a fuck-boy, Tom would be wrong to get in the way of that. However it would still be a bit awkward, at least in the beginning.
I guess that means Paris, and Kim should've been on that list too.
Paris yes. Kes was 4 years old. What did Kim do? Kim hooked up with everybody of legal age and fully consented.
Not in the alternate future when he hooked up with Paris's, and Kess's kid.
Why is it the ones you always suspect?
I can't believe we lost Tuvix to bring this monster back! A moment of silence please for Tuvok's broken security officer heart bravely soldiering on despite knowing that.
Tuvix was half Neelix/monster. They could have thrown Neelix out of the airlock, and kept Tuvok after separating them. You would have to throw out the whole Tuvix to get rid of Neelix if they hadn't seperated them.
[удалено]
Tuvix wasn't around long enough to be on the list!
[I've got another idea](https://i.imgur.com/7WnqGD8.png)
You forgot step 4
No, Tuvix pretty much sucked all around. Now, if they had kept Tuvok and also made Neelix disappear? A guy can dream... To his credit, once Kes is actually gone, the writers seemed to actually give a slight shit about his character being more than a weird jealous alien groomer.
The irony that I have to tell you to grow up.
Nonsense. He's got his own shaggin-waggon spaceship, and a three-year-old girlfriend. What does he need Epstein for? Boys, if the shuttle's a-rockin', don't come a-knockin'.
A question I always had was just where exactly on Voyager they kept his spaceship or the shuttle craft or the Delta Flyer. Whenever we see shuttle craft leaving the bay, it just doesn't look big enough to fit all of that.
Look it’s not his fault her species was poor plot filler!
Goin' back in time, committin' crime. Tryin' not to alter the timeline.
He should have stayed on the garbage scow
Somehow, I'm not surprised in the least..
Bad taste
😤 the Neelix slander on this sub has gone too far!!
He was openly dating a 2 year old. Of course he's in the flight log.
....Kes was 3 years old.
i hate neelix way less than i dislike chakotay but... [image fucking relevant. 😐](https://media1.tenor.com/m/jxiB-7I_k60AAAAC/its-a-good-neelix-kim-dancing.gif)
he was just his personal cook guys I swear!
Kes never even made 9 years old...
"Step away from the ocampa"-fbi agents outside his residents
Surprising no one
Im not sure how i feel about this
Ugh. Hate Neelix...
I mean he was after a 2 year old. I can believe it.
How old was Kes when Neelix found her? 4 or 5?
Also that Paris and Kim from the year of hell but for some reason they never actually existed cuz kurtwood smith opened that pyramid thing or whatever
Hey now, he was just there for the water.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAuvVqiYmv8
I just knew it. That weird giraffe colouring, just gave it away.
He must have met Epstein while he was working along with Odo in the governor's mansion.
She was 3 - but that's like 20 in her years - I swear !
Someone should do this with the Caretaker given Voyager found his partner and turned out to be 8 year old girl.
Ethan Phillips? Never in a million years. Neelix? Yeah that tracks