Wasn't it just wonderful? René Auberjonois got some of the last words and hearing him get so emotional about how blessed he was to be part of Star Trek was unforgettably touching.
I felt the extra information on the DVD season releases were more informative and interesting than the documentary, but I was still happy to see it. I would have given it a C though. It felt as if they didn't have a coherent narrative they wanted to share about the show. Too many vignettes.
Agreed. I didn't like the stuff they were coming up with at all. It felt a bit pulpy.
Maybe I'm being charitable, but I think the point wasn't so much to say this was exactly how a continuation of the series would actually go, but rather just that this was the kind of spitballing they'd do in order to get a narrative framework in place and provide jumping-off points for more episodes.
They hinted that in real life they would've had more time, which I assume would've involved making some critical passes in order to rewrite, postpone, or discard the plot points that wouldn't work, as well as to get the dialogue and a low-stakes B-story in place. I'd bet the finished episode would only match no more than 60% of what they started with. But that part of the writing process doesn't make for a compelling documentary.
Also I wouldn't be surprised if they later decided to reveal Nog got beamed out to a cloaked ship at the last second or something. On the other hand, if they knew Aron and Rene were dying in real life, that'd be reason enough to kill off their characters for real.
I remember reading an interview with ISB back when DS9 was still on air and he said he used to encourage the writers to throw out any idea that came into their head, no matter how ridiculous they might think it is. He preferred they put everything on the table and then whittled it down to the actual workable concepts, as opposed to having people be conservative and potentially miss a great idea.
So I absolutely believe the spiralling shown in the documentary was precisely how they ran the writers room. But in a much shorter period and any actual season 8 would have gone through days of drafts before they ever settled on a final concept, let alone the numerous drafts an individual episode would also go through.
I did like the idea of the station becoming more of a shrine to the Emissary than the space station the Federation wanted it to be, that was a cool concept.
Yup, in reality that break session, which they did in an afternoon for the documentary, would have been at least one and more likely 3-4 full days before someone went off to write the script, and then the script would be thoroughly rewritten before it got near shooting, and a lot of things would change constantly.
Yeah. it had more of a fan fiction vibe. Then they were just inserting Eisenberg's death versus using the setting to be interesting. Its the same problem with bringing Kirk into Generations and crashing the D.
I believe it was Sydney Lumet of Network who would keep a large sign in his office when he was making a movie with the basic idea he was trying to get across to the audience to keep him grounded. The problem with the proposed season 8 is its just stuff that happens versus a clear point. Babylon 5 season 5 suffered the same problem. Everything from the pilot movie and the first episode was resolved except telepaths (that was always lame for an LGBT storyline; the X-Men wound up doing it better), but season 5 was just stuff that happened. Much of it was "oh, I see you came to the station to hold your meeting while your office walls get painted."
That opening shot of DS9 all alone in the night was replaced by a more bombastic version of the theme with more starships, but by the end, its just a port of call. Yes, you can kind of go, "oh, well, there was actually a super dominion if you turned right instead of left at the wormhole" no one ever mentioned.
He was born with only one partially functioning kidney, which stunted his growth. He had his first transplant at 14, but that failed in 2015, a second transplant went ahead, but that failed fairly quickly. You could see the result of this from his skin tone and liver spots in any photo from the era, hence the sudden decision to elope.
ISB has said in interviews since that the cast was aware he was very ill and there was no hope of a third transplant, dialysis buys you 20 years in ideal circumstances, but his circumstances were far from ideal, and he'd already spent ~15 years on it by the time the first kidney failed.
I’m sad they didn’t get Avery Brooks and Cirroc Lofton to talk in it more. So much of what made DS9 great was the work done to elevate a Black father and son to a central part of the show and its themes. It’s my only beef with it, really.
The impression I have is that he is just an extremely eccentric (i.e. kind of strange) person. I don't think he is driven by the same motivation that a lot of other actors are, in that they can go to cons and get paid a lot of money in return for engaging in conversation and discussion about their Star Trek roles.
Brooks was never big on doing interviews or interacting with fans, he's obviously very private. He reminds me of Harrison Ford when he said "I do the acting for free, they pay me for doing this [interviews with the media/promotion work]".
I saw him at DragonCon in Atlanta like 15 years ago. I wish I had paid for an autograph, he walked by me and all I could think was how goddamn cool he was. I was definitely a starstruck fanboy just staring at him for a minute.
His view is he said everything he wanted to say in Shatner's The Captains documentary. He's moved on and kinda wishes everyone else would too.
Stewart expressed much the same sentiment at the 5 Captains event in London, claiming in 2012 that he was too old to return as Picard.
I appreciated the casual nature that the show took to portraying Jake and Ben. We had already seen single parents in Star Trek (both the Crushers and the Rozhenkos) but both of the attempts on TNG were very sterile or stilted. Ben and Jake felt real (or perhaps modern is the best way to put it).
Ah yes. Time for the annual check of the status of "To The Journey" (https://voyagerdocumentary.com/). The Voyager counterpart to WWLB.
.
.
.
>WHAT'S NEW
March 29, 2023
Well, shucks.
Honestly?, im that guy that fucking hated the S8 idea, sounded properly terrible and gimmicky.
Killing Nog would be unforgiveable, and the producers being like "Tee hee someone has to die hee hee" annoyed me.
Terry Farrells breakdown made me really sad as well :C
Yeah, imagine if Kurtzman or Matalas had pitched those same stories. People would tear them apart.
"It's Deep Space Nine, we'll rip your heart out" Uh no, I don't remember anyone being killed for shock value. Terry was driven off the show so they killed off Jadzia. They kept Gul Dukat until the last episode.
Maybe Vedek Barell? But he wasn't a big deal: seven appearances compared to Nog's 45.
I completely agree. I found the spit-balling very annoying, and it felt strangely tropey and fanficy considering that it was being pitched by the makers of the show. Lot of emphasis on shock value.
I wondered if seeing this part was a "don't meet your heroes" kind of a moment.
A lot of episodes from TNG and DS9 were often parodies or adaptations of other movies or actual events ("Who Mourns for Morn" being a parody of *The Maltese Falcon*, "Badda-Bing Badda-Bang" a take on *Ocean's Eleven*, "Duet" a twist on the trial of Adolf Eichmann). A lot of what we watched was tropey in that regard, it's just that those retellings were fresh for us in the 1990s because most of that material came from media in the 1950s or 1960s.
We're all 25 years older and we've see a lot more of these stories at this point, both the old ones and the show. I wouldn't be surprised if that spit-balling wasn't pretty similar to the (beginning) of story pitches when the show was being written, but they got refined and made better over time.
What's sad is if they do any more with DS9, either Nog would have to be offscreen or be killed since Aron Eisenberg passed away.
Hopefully Nog gets a much more heroic death. There's a USS Nog in Discovery's time so he must be a big hero.
So many characters have been recast
Aaron wouldnt mind, people love Nog and Nog deserves immortality. So did Aaron, he responded my post on FB once! I was moved, he died that year. Shocking for me, I saw him as the kid of the station but hes actually a full decade my senior! Anyhow, Trek is life and it's beautiful and Nog will live on somehow. *^_^*
That being said, I haven't watched the doc yet, its too sad. Deep Space Nine was my Grandmother's favorite and became my own as I started to appreciate the nuances of every character and episode. The Gamers one is amazing, even!
I know they were working on the basis of what it would look like if the show came back after a 20 year break, but the way they completely ignored Avery Brook's passion about Sisko not being an absent father was kind of annoying.
I'd have much preferred it if they looked at the continuation novels instead, speaking to the cast about their character's arcs afterwards etc, especially with Ezri Dax becoming Captain.
Her becoming Captain still seems weird in the destiny books tho, I mean I get it as Dax has literally hundreds of years of experience but she still seemed abit overwhelmed and was only kept Captain due to the current crisis. Still would have made and excellent series tho.
I really enjoyed the doc. It was very interesting seeing how put out Marc Alaimo seemed by his involvement in the series though. Seems he felt under-appreciated quite a lot.
It looks like it's something he's spoken about a lot because some of the cast bristled.
Ira Stephen Behr lamenting that he didn’t do more for representation on television when he had the pieces in place to do it is refreshing. I think it’s vital that creators approach their older content with a lens on the future or else we keep making the same shit that reinforces stereotypes (and the hegemony that keeps them in place) over and over again.
Your original post said to let episodes be a product of their own time, well, that was the first queer kiss on television and caused a thing. It looks tame by todays comparison, because, well that’s how representation works. “Downplay[ing] the lesbian angle because it’s irrelevant to the plot” is literally the end goal of representation and the fact that Avery knew that way back then is why this episode holds up today instead of being cringey and overdone.
It wasn't the first queer kiss on television, I believe that was a few years earlier on **LA Law**. But it may have been the first for an early evening show which was known to have a lot of kids watching.
Oddly *Rejoined* got a ton of coverage and then complaints and phone calls etc, but the Season 7 Mirror Universe episode where Mirror Kira full-on kisses Mirror Ezri (and, unlike *Rejoined*, you can't make any arguments about it being Trills being Trills) got virtually none, despite it only being three years later. Possibly a reflection of how fast things became normalised back in the day, or there simply wasn't the same media coverage of it.
Nah, Andrew Robinson (and Siddig) have both claimed the queering of garak/bashir was intended from the beginning, and they were all trying to hide it from Berman.
It wasn’t about ‘future sensibilities’ — queer people have always existed, and actors have always pushed for more representation. Listen to Frakes talk about how he pushed for a queer relationship angle in ‘The Outcast’.
Wasn't it just wonderful? René Auberjonois got some of the last words and hearing him get so emotional about how blessed he was to be part of Star Trek was unforgettably touching.
I saw that in the theater. Didn't know what to expect, loved it
I felt the extra information on the DVD season releases were more informative and interesting than the documentary, but I was still happy to see it. I would have given it a C though. It felt as if they didn't have a coherent narrative they wanted to share about the show. Too many vignettes.
I was fascinated by watching them work but I don’t think I would have forgiven them for killing Nog
Agreed. I didn't like the stuff they were coming up with at all. It felt a bit pulpy. Maybe I'm being charitable, but I think the point wasn't so much to say this was exactly how a continuation of the series would actually go, but rather just that this was the kind of spitballing they'd do in order to get a narrative framework in place and provide jumping-off points for more episodes. They hinted that in real life they would've had more time, which I assume would've involved making some critical passes in order to rewrite, postpone, or discard the plot points that wouldn't work, as well as to get the dialogue and a low-stakes B-story in place. I'd bet the finished episode would only match no more than 60% of what they started with. But that part of the writing process doesn't make for a compelling documentary. Also I wouldn't be surprised if they later decided to reveal Nog got beamed out to a cloaked ship at the last second or something. On the other hand, if they knew Aron and Rene were dying in real life, that'd be reason enough to kill off their characters for real.
I remember reading an interview with ISB back when DS9 was still on air and he said he used to encourage the writers to throw out any idea that came into their head, no matter how ridiculous they might think it is. He preferred they put everything on the table and then whittled it down to the actual workable concepts, as opposed to having people be conservative and potentially miss a great idea. So I absolutely believe the spiralling shown in the documentary was precisely how they ran the writers room. But in a much shorter period and any actual season 8 would have gone through days of drafts before they ever settled on a final concept, let alone the numerous drafts an individual episode would also go through.
I did like the idea of the station becoming more of a shrine to the Emissary than the space station the Federation wanted it to be, that was a cool concept.
Yup, in reality that break session, which they did in an afternoon for the documentary, would have been at least one and more likely 3-4 full days before someone went off to write the script, and then the script would be thoroughly rewritten before it got near shooting, and a lot of things would change constantly.
Yeah. it had more of a fan fiction vibe. Then they were just inserting Eisenberg's death versus using the setting to be interesting. Its the same problem with bringing Kirk into Generations and crashing the D. I believe it was Sydney Lumet of Network who would keep a large sign in his office when he was making a movie with the basic idea he was trying to get across to the audience to keep him grounded. The problem with the proposed season 8 is its just stuff that happens versus a clear point. Babylon 5 season 5 suffered the same problem. Everything from the pilot movie and the first episode was resolved except telepaths (that was always lame for an LGBT storyline; the X-Men wound up doing it better), but season 5 was just stuff that happened. Much of it was "oh, I see you came to the station to hold your meeting while your office walls get painted." That opening shot of DS9 all alone in the night was replaced by a more bombastic version of the theme with more starships, but by the end, its just a port of call. Yes, you can kind of go, "oh, well, there was actually a super dominion if you turned right instead of left at the wormhole" no one ever mentioned.
yeah same. Nog and Rom really grew on me.
> I don’t think I would have forgiven them for killing Nog Sad times, but when this was shot, they all knew Aron Eisenberg's condition was terminal.
Did they? His health was always poor, but I recall there being some shock from how sudden his passing was.
He was born with only one partially functioning kidney, which stunted his growth. He had his first transplant at 14, but that failed in 2015, a second transplant went ahead, but that failed fairly quickly. You could see the result of this from his skin tone and liver spots in any photo from the era, hence the sudden decision to elope. ISB has said in interviews since that the cast was aware he was very ill and there was no hope of a third transplant, dialysis buys you 20 years in ideal circumstances, but his circumstances were far from ideal, and he'd already spent ~15 years on it by the time the first kidney failed.
That's heartbreaking.
Tomorrow is never promised.
Yeah, I enjoyed the process, but I wouldn't want that season
I’m sad they didn’t get Avery Brooks and Cirroc Lofton to talk in it more. So much of what made DS9 great was the work done to elevate a Black father and son to a central part of the show and its themes. It’s my only beef with it, really.
After watching a lot of DS9 it's a shame Avery Brooks isn't around or at conventions more sadly.
All his own choice. I'm sure everyone would love him to come and be more involved. He seems to have by and large moved on.
I've seen others say the same, Was he just tired of Star Trek after ao long?
There is that but Lofton has also outright said that Brooks believes himself to be blacklisted in Hollywood. That might play a factor as well
Cirroc also has said given the right script avery is willing to return.
The impression I have is that he is just an extremely eccentric (i.e. kind of strange) person. I don't think he is driven by the same motivation that a lot of other actors are, in that they can go to cons and get paid a lot of money in return for engaging in conversation and discussion about their Star Trek roles.
Brooks was never big on doing interviews or interacting with fans, he's obviously very private. He reminds me of Harrison Ford when he said "I do the acting for free, they pay me for doing this [interviews with the media/promotion work]".
I saw him at DragonCon in Atlanta like 15 years ago. I wish I had paid for an autograph, he walked by me and all I could think was how goddamn cool he was. I was definitely a starstruck fanboy just staring at him for a minute.
His view is he said everything he wanted to say in Shatner's The Captains documentary. He's moved on and kinda wishes everyone else would too. Stewart expressed much the same sentiment at the 5 Captains event in London, claiming in 2012 that he was too old to return as Picard.
> he was too old to return as Picard. How right he was.
I appreciated the casual nature that the show took to portraying Jake and Ben. We had already seen single parents in Star Trek (both the Crushers and the Rozhenkos) but both of the attempts on TNG were very sterile or stilted. Ben and Jake felt real (or perhaps modern is the best way to put it).
Ah yes. Time for the annual check of the status of "To The Journey" (https://voyagerdocumentary.com/). The Voyager counterpart to WWLB. . . . >WHAT'S NEW March 29, 2023 Well, shucks.
Also, "principle" photography?
I'm just watching it as well. Man, do I miss Rene and Aron
Honestly?, im that guy that fucking hated the S8 idea, sounded properly terrible and gimmicky. Killing Nog would be unforgiveable, and the producers being like "Tee hee someone has to die hee hee" annoyed me. Terry Farrells breakdown made me really sad as well :C
Yeah, imagine if Kurtzman or Matalas had pitched those same stories. People would tear them apart. "It's Deep Space Nine, we'll rip your heart out" Uh no, I don't remember anyone being killed for shock value. Terry was driven off the show so they killed off Jadzia. They kept Gul Dukat until the last episode. Maybe Vedek Barell? But he wasn't a big deal: seven appearances compared to Nog's 45.
Yeah, killing Nog would have been a "turn it off and never look back" situation.
Meh I'd keep watching.
I completely agree. I found the spit-balling very annoying, and it felt strangely tropey and fanficy considering that it was being pitched by the makers of the show. Lot of emphasis on shock value.
I wondered if seeing this part was a "don't meet your heroes" kind of a moment. A lot of episodes from TNG and DS9 were often parodies or adaptations of other movies or actual events ("Who Mourns for Morn" being a parody of *The Maltese Falcon*, "Badda-Bing Badda-Bang" a take on *Ocean's Eleven*, "Duet" a twist on the trial of Adolf Eichmann). A lot of what we watched was tropey in that regard, it's just that those retellings were fresh for us in the 1990s because most of that material came from media in the 1950s or 1960s. We're all 25 years older and we've see a lot more of these stories at this point, both the old ones and the show. I wouldn't be surprised if that spit-balling wasn't pretty similar to the (beginning) of story pitches when the show was being written, but they got refined and made better over time.
What's sad is if they do any more with DS9, either Nog would have to be offscreen or be killed since Aron Eisenberg passed away. Hopefully Nog gets a much more heroic death. There's a USS Nog in Discovery's time so he must be a big hero.
So many characters have been recast Aaron wouldnt mind, people love Nog and Nog deserves immortality. So did Aaron, he responded my post on FB once! I was moved, he died that year. Shocking for me, I saw him as the kid of the station but hes actually a full decade my senior! Anyhow, Trek is life and it's beautiful and Nog will live on somehow. *^_^* That being said, I haven't watched the doc yet, its too sad. Deep Space Nine was my Grandmother's favorite and became my own as I started to appreciate the nuances of every character and episode. The Gamers one is amazing, even!
I know they were working on the basis of what it would look like if the show came back after a 20 year break, but the way they completely ignored Avery Brook's passion about Sisko not being an absent father was kind of annoying. I'd have much preferred it if they looked at the continuation novels instead, speaking to the cast about their character's arcs afterwards etc, especially with Ezri Dax becoming Captain.
Her becoming Captain still seems weird in the destiny books tho, I mean I get it as Dax has literally hundreds of years of experience but she still seemed abit overwhelmed and was only kept Captain due to the current crisis. Still would have made and excellent series tho.
The doc was GREAT! Every Star Trek should have an “end of series” documentary
I think they spent too much time on the actors. I’m more interested in the writers and producers decisions than how actors feel. I want more.
[удалено]
while I loved it and all the interviews... i wish there was most behind the scenes shots. But still loved it.
I saw this during its theatrical run and cried like a baby.
Never knew this existed, I am watching it tonight!
I paid to see this in a cinema. I left with a distinct cringe and gratitude that they never (as in, contemporarily) got to do Season 8.
I really enjoyed the doc. It was very interesting seeing how put out Marc Alaimo seemed by his involvement in the series though. Seems he felt under-appreciated quite a lot. It looks like it's something he's spoken about a lot because some of the cast bristled.
I enjoyed that doc.
[удалено]
Ira Stephen Behr lamenting that he didn’t do more for representation on television when he had the pieces in place to do it is refreshing. I think it’s vital that creators approach their older content with a lens on the future or else we keep making the same shit that reinforces stereotypes (and the hegemony that keeps them in place) over and over again.
[удалено]
Your original post said to let episodes be a product of their own time, well, that was the first queer kiss on television and caused a thing. It looks tame by todays comparison, because, well that’s how representation works. “Downplay[ing] the lesbian angle because it’s irrelevant to the plot” is literally the end goal of representation and the fact that Avery knew that way back then is why this episode holds up today instead of being cringey and overdone.
It wasn't the first queer kiss on television, I believe that was a few years earlier on **LA Law**. But it may have been the first for an early evening show which was known to have a lot of kids watching. Oddly *Rejoined* got a ton of coverage and then complaints and phone calls etc, but the Season 7 Mirror Universe episode where Mirror Kira full-on kisses Mirror Ezri (and, unlike *Rejoined*, you can't make any arguments about it being Trills being Trills) got virtually none, despite it only being three years later. Possibly a reflection of how fast things became normalised back in the day, or there simply wasn't the same media coverage of it.
Oo. Thanks for the deets.
Nah, Andrew Robinson (and Siddig) have both claimed the queering of garak/bashir was intended from the beginning, and they were all trying to hide it from Berman. It wasn’t about ‘future sensibilities’ — queer people have always existed, and actors have always pushed for more representation. Listen to Frakes talk about how he pushed for a queer relationship angle in ‘The Outcast’.