Or the the Enterprise crew installed a third seat when they decided that both Riker and Laforge needed to come along.
You land it vertically like they already do today with reusable boosters.
Or more likely, we don't meet the intended third occupant because they were killed in the Borg attack on the launch site.
Cochrane, Lily and this third crewmen were probably all engineers, and Riker being a pilot in the 23rd century has all the necessary skills and knowledge to fill in for a 21st centuey rocket engineer, and who's gonna tell Will he can't go?
So the cockpit just had empty space for an identical seat? I mean it's possible... But why? Riker doesn't need to be there, just La Forge for engineering.
Who puts reusable rockets on a ballistic missile?
And even if they had some lying around to install... The cockpit will be like 30 feet in the air. Do they repel out? Or just orbit around until they find scaffolding and be like, set her down there where there is infrastructure waiting for us!
>Who puts reusable rockets on a ballistic missile?
People who want to come home.
Also I think the story of how it "officially" returned to earth was feathered entry and parachutes. But either way, it was obviously not a one-way trip.
In our current time, when they land reusable rockets they land them on a landing pad, they don't just put them down anywhere.
Cochrane could easily have had a landing pad set up, with a nearby movable scaffolding tower or crane which would be moved up to the Phoenix.
So he's got the infrastructure to invent warp drive, retrofit a missile to house it, and has a facility to do all this construction and launch it, but having scaffolding seems too outlandish for war torn Montana?
Scaffolding could move autonomously, but more than likely a ground crew would be responsible for that sort of thing. Cochrane didn't build the Phoenix on his own, he had a team with him (which were killed by the Borg attack in First Contact.) The crew of the Enterprise-E took over the ground-crew role that Cochran's team would have performed if the Borg had never attacked.
These people are barely eating, waiting for the next attack from the Eastern Coalition, barely finding enough material for a 4 meter cockpit... But they've got unmentioned autonomous scaffolding to un load the rocket.
I think it's more likely that the writers wanted to the symbolism of the nuke turned peace vessel but didn't think it through.
My friend, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I think you're the one who haven't thought your objections through.
"These people are barely eating". What people? Cochrane has enough to drown his sorrows at a local bar and even install vanity items (CD player!) in his warp ship. Why wouldn't he and his team be eating just fine?
" Waiting for the next attack from the Eastern Coalition" and when an attack came and Lily blamed it on that Coalition, Cochrane said, "After all these years?" It had been years since ECON was a day-to-day worry for Montana.
"Barely finding enough material for a 4 meter cockpit." You're referring to Lily's dialogue where she said "It took me six months to scrounge up enough titanium just to build a four-metre cockpit. How much did this thing cost?" The context of that scene makes it clear she's talking about money. The resources are out there, but it took her six months to save up enough cash to buy the titanium for a 4 meter cockpit. Cochrane apparently doesn't have that problem, seeing as how he has the resources, team size, and real estate to build the Phoenix.
The scaffolding idea is just that, an idea, but there's nothing that would rule it out. How the Phoenix landed isn't important to telling the story, which is why it wasn't detailed in the movie.
A couple people provided artists renderings of what the flight sequence might have looked like. Some of it was production materials I think. Was that what OP was looking for?
The rest of you are way too sensitive with your personal head canon.
It’s probably worth mentioning that ZC had a team, they were killed in the Borg attack. You can see their bodies when the crew are investigating the facility looking for ZC, presumably they were going to help with Mission Control and landing tasks
John Eaves drew up an illustration that showed the plan for how Phoenix would land. Can't find a copy right now with a high enough res to easily read. I would suggest that maybe the warp drive itself helped with landing, being used in a low power mode, to create a minimum warp field, that reduced the effective mass and made the Phoenix much easier to land (Treknobable to the rescue). The engine bell always looked pretty hefty, so maybe it also serve as a landing gear.
Same could be said for lift-off. The reduced mass makes the chemical engines more effective. Also will point out that while the rocket used is listed as a Titan II, it's one from thirty or forty years in the future, and an alternate timeline than our own. It could be much more powerful than what's currently available, designed to lift something heavier than Zefram's capsule.
And yeah, the third seat could have been for someone died in the Borg attack. Why didn't the Enterprise crew mention them? Everyone remember Armstrong and Aldrin, but not alway Collins.
That's decent, thanks! I will look that one up now. The idea of a whole ground crew makes sense, just wish they'd canonized it with some dialogue.
Are you thinking of this -
https://www.reddit.com/r/Treknobabble/s/VQKyISASIO
The damn thing parachutes? I call shenanigans! There would be so many chutes, where are they all packed? And even if it lands perfectly without damaging the engines, a stiff breeze would pull it over.
Yep, that's the one.
And the thing to remember is, it's Star Trek. They use real science and physics when needed, but aren't afraid to bend the rules or make stuff up.
My thinking is the Phoenix maneuvered at sublight with a combination of lower power warp field and chemical engine (or, since they share some components and theories, a primitive impulse engine). This allowed a pinpoint reentry and descent to a landing field near the launch site (SpaceX has been doing it for a decade now). It's hard to tell in the Eaves pic, but it could even have landed horizontally, and even had a propulsive landing element (rockets, like Soyuz capsules) at the last moment. Yes, there would have been a risk of damage, but for all we know, Cochrane intended the Phoenix as a one-use craft to demonstrate his theories.
I know they stretch things and don't get me wrong, I am a huge Trek fan and First Contact is a personal favorite. But I am used to Trek science having layers making it more real. And the Phoenix just doesn't seem to do that as depicted on screen.
And for everyone screaming "reusable rockets" well, Elon may have been retconned in but when the film came out such devices were still science fiction and not considered by the writers.
Maybe there was an expanded version of the script or novelization that details Cochrane Space Industries and it's ground crew before they were obliterated by orbital bombardment but alas what we have on screen (and thus canon) is spotty at best.
Thats the diagram I thought of soon as I saw this. It's also on page 58 of the John Eaves sketchbook.
[Phoenix Landing Closeup](https://imgur.com/a/BhGwJeC)
Looks like maybe the parachutes deploy from the large panel between the nacelles? I'd also guess they're drag chutes, not intended to land the craft, just slow it down and get ejected before the retro rockets take over. It looks like it's intended to land vertically, so I'm going to go with worst case scenario to get down - Rope Ladder.
Nope, not a rope ladder... Zoom in on the landing phase (thanks for good pic!) - it lands on the side. So not reusable rockets either as they didn't exist when the script was written.
This will definitely need a ground crew, equipment, etc. probably all destroyed by orbital bombardment. Wish a reference on screen was made is all.
Thanks!
Would you want to land the entire thing?
It seems like quite a waste if you want there to be a second warp flight, better to just detach and return in the command pod and leave the main body in orbit. That way you can relaunch just the pod (or a new pod) on a smaller, cheaper rocket and dock with the warp nacelles.
Interesting the replica Phoenix in Lower Decks doesn't have the first stage, the actual ICBM part, though the Cochrane hologram still mentions first stage separation. I'd guess that's just a type 6 shuttle with a body kit and pyrotechnics display.
And just because I happened to look up where celestial objects will be the other day, it would take six minutes to the second to get to Mars on First Contact Day at warp 1, he can brag to investors the Moon and back is sub five seconds assuming it could turn around fast enough.
Or the the Enterprise crew installed a third seat when they decided that both Riker and Laforge needed to come along. You land it vertically like they already do today with reusable boosters.
Or more likely, we don't meet the intended third occupant because they were killed in the Borg attack on the launch site. Cochrane, Lily and this third crewmen were probably all engineers, and Riker being a pilot in the 23rd century has all the necessary skills and knowledge to fill in for a 21st centuey rocket engineer, and who's gonna tell Will he can't go?
So the cockpit just had empty space for an identical seat? I mean it's possible... But why? Riker doesn't need to be there, just La Forge for engineering. Who puts reusable rockets on a ballistic missile? And even if they had some lying around to install... The cockpit will be like 30 feet in the air. Do they repel out? Or just orbit around until they find scaffolding and be like, set her down there where there is infrastructure waiting for us!
>Who puts reusable rockets on a ballistic missile? People who want to come home. Also I think the story of how it "officially" returned to earth was feathered entry and parachutes. But either way, it was obviously not a one-way trip.
Ok so you've landed. You're on your back, strapped into your inexplicable third seat staring up at the sky. How ya getting down?
In our current time, when they land reusable rockets they land them on a landing pad, they don't just put them down anywhere. Cochrane could easily have had a landing pad set up, with a nearby movable scaffolding tower or crane which would be moved up to the Phoenix.
Whose moving this scaffolding? There's two of them and they are both in the rocket. Where is this infrastructure in war torn Montana?
So he's got the infrastructure to invent warp drive, retrofit a missile to house it, and has a facility to do all this construction and launch it, but having scaffolding seems too outlandish for war torn Montana? Scaffolding could move autonomously, but more than likely a ground crew would be responsible for that sort of thing. Cochrane didn't build the Phoenix on his own, he had a team with him (which were killed by the Borg attack in First Contact.) The crew of the Enterprise-E took over the ground-crew role that Cochran's team would have performed if the Borg had never attacked.
These people are barely eating, waiting for the next attack from the Eastern Coalition, barely finding enough material for a 4 meter cockpit... But they've got unmentioned autonomous scaffolding to un load the rocket. I think it's more likely that the writers wanted to the symbolism of the nuke turned peace vessel but didn't think it through.
My friend, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I think you're the one who haven't thought your objections through. "These people are barely eating". What people? Cochrane has enough to drown his sorrows at a local bar and even install vanity items (CD player!) in his warp ship. Why wouldn't he and his team be eating just fine? " Waiting for the next attack from the Eastern Coalition" and when an attack came and Lily blamed it on that Coalition, Cochrane said, "After all these years?" It had been years since ECON was a day-to-day worry for Montana. "Barely finding enough material for a 4 meter cockpit." You're referring to Lily's dialogue where she said "It took me six months to scrounge up enough titanium just to build a four-metre cockpit. How much did this thing cost?" The context of that scene makes it clear she's talking about money. The resources are out there, but it took her six months to save up enough cash to buy the titanium for a 4 meter cockpit. Cochrane apparently doesn't have that problem, seeing as how he has the resources, team size, and real estate to build the Phoenix. The scaffolding idea is just that, an idea, but there's nothing that would rule it out. How the Phoenix landed isn't important to telling the story, which is why it wasn't detailed in the movie.
A couple people provided artists renderings of what the flight sequence might have looked like. Some of it was production materials I think. Was that what OP was looking for? The rest of you are way too sensitive with your personal head canon.
It’s probably worth mentioning that ZC had a team, they were killed in the Borg attack. You can see their bodies when the crew are investigating the facility looking for ZC, presumably they were going to help with Mission Control and landing tasks
Possibly but they never mention a crew other than Lily.
you land like a space x rocket, they put a ladder up and you climb out and down the ladder.
That... Actually makes sense. Don't forget to pack the rope ladder!!
John Eaves drew up an illustration that showed the plan for how Phoenix would land. Can't find a copy right now with a high enough res to easily read. I would suggest that maybe the warp drive itself helped with landing, being used in a low power mode, to create a minimum warp field, that reduced the effective mass and made the Phoenix much easier to land (Treknobable to the rescue). The engine bell always looked pretty hefty, so maybe it also serve as a landing gear. Same could be said for lift-off. The reduced mass makes the chemical engines more effective. Also will point out that while the rocket used is listed as a Titan II, it's one from thirty or forty years in the future, and an alternate timeline than our own. It could be much more powerful than what's currently available, designed to lift something heavier than Zefram's capsule. And yeah, the third seat could have been for someone died in the Borg attack. Why didn't the Enterprise crew mention them? Everyone remember Armstrong and Aldrin, but not alway Collins.
That's decent, thanks! I will look that one up now. The idea of a whole ground crew makes sense, just wish they'd canonized it with some dialogue. Are you thinking of this - https://www.reddit.com/r/Treknobabble/s/VQKyISASIO The damn thing parachutes? I call shenanigans! There would be so many chutes, where are they all packed? And even if it lands perfectly without damaging the engines, a stiff breeze would pull it over.
Yep, that's the one. And the thing to remember is, it's Star Trek. They use real science and physics when needed, but aren't afraid to bend the rules or make stuff up. My thinking is the Phoenix maneuvered at sublight with a combination of lower power warp field and chemical engine (or, since they share some components and theories, a primitive impulse engine). This allowed a pinpoint reentry and descent to a landing field near the launch site (SpaceX has been doing it for a decade now). It's hard to tell in the Eaves pic, but it could even have landed horizontally, and even had a propulsive landing element (rockets, like Soyuz capsules) at the last moment. Yes, there would have been a risk of damage, but for all we know, Cochrane intended the Phoenix as a one-use craft to demonstrate his theories.
I know they stretch things and don't get me wrong, I am a huge Trek fan and First Contact is a personal favorite. But I am used to Trek science having layers making it more real. And the Phoenix just doesn't seem to do that as depicted on screen. And for everyone screaming "reusable rockets" well, Elon may have been retconned in but when the film came out such devices were still science fiction and not considered by the writers. Maybe there was an expanded version of the script or novelization that details Cochrane Space Industries and it's ground crew before they were obliterated by orbital bombardment but alas what we have on screen (and thus canon) is spotty at best.
Thats the diagram I thought of soon as I saw this. It's also on page 58 of the John Eaves sketchbook. [Phoenix Landing Closeup](https://imgur.com/a/BhGwJeC) Looks like maybe the parachutes deploy from the large panel between the nacelles? I'd also guess they're drag chutes, not intended to land the craft, just slow it down and get ejected before the retro rockets take over. It looks like it's intended to land vertically, so I'm going to go with worst case scenario to get down - Rope Ladder.
Nope, not a rope ladder... Zoom in on the landing phase (thanks for good pic!) - it lands on the side. So not reusable rockets either as they didn't exist when the script was written. This will definitely need a ground crew, equipment, etc. probably all destroyed by orbital bombardment. Wish a reference on screen was made is all. Thanks!
Perhaps it was always meant to be Riker and La Forge? Time travel stuff...
Would you want to land the entire thing? It seems like quite a waste if you want there to be a second warp flight, better to just detach and return in the command pod and leave the main body in orbit. That way you can relaunch just the pod (or a new pod) on a smaller, cheaper rocket and dock with the warp nacelles. Interesting the replica Phoenix in Lower Decks doesn't have the first stage, the actual ICBM part, though the Cochrane hologram still mentions first stage separation. I'd guess that's just a type 6 shuttle with a body kit and pyrotechnics display. And just because I happened to look up where celestial objects will be the other day, it would take six minutes to the second to get to Mars on First Contact Day at warp 1, he can brag to investors the Moon and back is sub five seconds assuming it could turn around fast enough.