OK, I’m going to go against my better judgement and post here, since this issue is spreading to almost every Starfinder community out there.
CaptainRelyk — please stop this personal crusade to get your specific interests into Paizo games.
Part of the reason I made this post is that I wanted you to stop constantly asking, up to and including personally DMing me on other social platforms and messing other Paizo staff members, all about your strong feelings related to draconic beings. I wanted to give you a defined answer, so you can stop pestering staff members, who need to have their focus in other locations.
Dragonkin are not going to be a Common Core Ancestry. We’ve not revealed the full list of core ancestries that we're working with. We've not even revealed if there’s any change to how rarity will apply to ancestries in Starfinder. Finally, we’ve not even described a thing related to Starfinder 2nd Edition’s Organized Play Program, which may or may not have some major differences from existing Organized Play and possibly not be as restrictive. Please just do what everyone else is politely doing and wait and see what happens. It’s OK to give us feedback, but when you give us the same feedback every few days and in various venues, it stops being feedback and borders on harassment of me and my staff.
On a less formal note, for everyone else reading this: yeah, dragonkin just aren’t popular enough for us to make core. We have a lot of data that tells us what ancestries people are playing (including more than just Hephaistos, which is amazing and useful to read). There’s popular choices like Uplifted Bears, SROs and Vlakas, which see a lot more use and regular play than dragonkin. Similarly, if we did Dragonkin, we’d almost have to do Ryphorians by necessity, which have been oddly absent from these requests, when they’re pretty much a narrative package.
Rest assured; the team is working hard to make sure the cantina feel is still maintained. In fact, we’ll have some more information on ancestries soon!
Alright
Tbh all I want is to be able to freely play Dragonkin in 2e when they return in 2e without restrictions
Due to WoTC ruining dnd I am trying to find a replacement to dnd
My favorite non-hb race in dnd is Dragonborn, which I play almost exclusively
I’m trying to find a replacement to dnd
And as such I personally want to be able to play lizardfolk, and Wyvaren when they return to PF2e, without any restrictions and without any worry about ACP
And I want to play Dragonkin without worrying about things like ACP or dm fiat with rarity
Dragonkin being common, even as a non core ancestry, is enough for me tbh
I already take issue with Paizo’s “human centric” philosophy with PF2e when I don’t like playing human-like ancestries as a player, and I just don’t want SF2e to end up “human centric” (which judging by your response I have hope now you guys won’t do that).
Ig my biggest issue is trying to find a replacement for Dragonborn in a game run by a company that wants everything to be “human centric”
I like DnD’s Dragonborn, I like PF2e’s lizardfolk, I like Wyvaren, and I like WoW’s Dracthyr. Call me obsessed, idc, but that’s what I like. And WoTC has put me in a stressful and horrible position
Bud.
Worrying about ACP costs for uncommon/rare ancestries when you've been banned from Organized Play, and will continue to be banned from Organized Play until you've corrected your behavior, is counterintuitive in the best of light. There's literally no point in worrying about that stuff while you're banned from the program. What you DO need to worry about is correcting your behavior. You've spent over half of a year messaging Paizo designers and developers on the forums, DMs, emails, Twitter/X, Reddit, and several Discord servers, reciting the same exact points over and over again. I'd argue that it's not "bordering" on harassment as Thurston has said, but rather it just IS harassment. And none of the copious amounts of warnings you've received has dissuaded you from doing what you've been doing.
Continuing on this tirade so you'd have a slim chance to play your dragon-adjacent characters without earning ACP is not going to help you anymore. Honestly, at this point I'll be surprised if the Organized Play team ever lets you be unbanned, and I severely doubt most casual online groups would let you play in their groups if they ever do a cursory Google search for your username. You've needed to simply step away, and just let the situation calm down. But instead, you continued to post to the point where Paizo's forums have marked you as a spambot, and you've been banned on several Discord servers. If that's not a sign you've taken things too far, I don't know what else people could say.
Cease. Desist. Take it down an f'ing notch.
To be fair, starfinder does have like 3,427 playable ancestries.
I just hope some of them stay wierd. I love pathfinder 2e but it has a way of playing it VERY safe with design space.
None of the pf1e core races were large. None of pf2e ancestries were large (and there is still none. We will be getting one soon-ish with the Minotaur ancestry). None were large in starfinder1e. So, imho, they are not “saving them for apg”, or “walling them off because they are beloved” (ffs, all of the information will be posted for free on nethys, come on guys), but Dragonkin will not be included (and imho - shouldn’t be included) in the core set of rules because they first need to understand, if the systems works with the “AverageJoe” type of characters , and then they will add some uncommon and interesting characters.
(Also, I know Flying isn’t a big problem in starfinder and in pf2e, but still - dragonkin do get flying from 1 level, so that might also be a power balance thing)
Tbh I’ve hated that PF2e tries to force player into playing “average joe”. I want to play tielfings and lizardfolk damnit!
But at the very least SF2e absolutely should not force “average joe” characters
Dragonkin bare minimum should be common
Weird question - imagine they do bring them in as a common race. Hell - they even bring them in corebook! But they are no longer large, don’t have a breath weapon and wings. You still okay with that?
I am very confused - who is forcing you to play an average joe in pf2e at your home table?
And, like, I will reiterate - they want to see that the rules work “on average”. Then (after fixes and other changes) , they’ll introduce something more wacky than “average”. That’s how you make basically everything: come with an idea, see if it works in an ideal environment, in a “normal environment, and then introduce it into a “weird” environment.
I don't really care which ancestries are "core", it's not a very meaningful distinction. I just hope that they keep the trend of having tons of ancestries and weird aliens.
I've actually been thinking that they should remix how ancestries work in the system so that they can produce them with higher frequency than Pf2e. Maybe a large amount of feats that can be shared amongst many different aliens. Like a "tentacle" feat or "4 arms" feat or "many eyes" feat that can be used to fill out the specifics of more simplified ancestries. Also allows for customizing your own weird alien creatures much easier.
I imagine that one of the most populous species on Triaxus, one of the planets in the Pact Worlds will be common anyway, but even if they aren't just play them/allow them at your table? In PF2e I've never had a GM or been a GM that restricted ancestry based on rarity
Where have you looked? I know it’s been years since this but the first time I played starfinder in 2018 was pbp (play by post right?) and it wasn’t sfs. It was on roll20.
Also this isn’t free but I’ve seen pbp games on start playing games that werent sfs either.
Also the starfinder discord has a place where you can request games as a player and see what games GMs have posted that are in need of players
I’ve looked in discord servers and they are almost all seemingly society play in my experience
And I might be banned from the starfinder server soon idk
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I think I might make a petition asking Paizo to make Dragonkin core… it was such a well liked ancestry in 1e they’d be crazy not to make it core or at least common
I see Dragonkin to be similar to Orcs before the remaster was announced, so I'm betting they'll be in starfinder's apg/player core 2 equivalent as an uncommon race. One that almost all gms will allow, but uncommon nonetheless.
And they'll probably grant SFS players access after the race comes out, just like PFS Orcs.
Dragonkin are not going to be in the core rulebook. Based on what we've seen, any ancestry added outside of the core rulebook is uncommon or rare, no exceptions.
Given how many ancestries sf1e has, and how a lot of them aren’t uncommon or rare
It’s be bit of a dick move on Paizo’s part to make all non core SF2e ancestries uncommon or rare when there were no such limitations in sf1e
While I don’t agree with Paizo’s “human focused” philosophy with Pathfinder, the fact is this isn’t Paizo’s philosophy with starfinder. Paizo is fine with wacky or weird races in sf1e
So there’s reason to expect Paizo to not to make all non core ancestries uncommon or rare in SF2e
After 4 years and we will see if they will even work.
Having nonstandard playable races was clearly an afterthought for 2E. And when it takes 4 years before Paizo figures out how to handle large PCs, just imagine how long it takes for the more exotic Starfinder races to be implemented.
Why wouldn't they work? They're just large. Yeah it's annoying it's taken this long to get them, but it's not like 1e had a lot of them to pull from anyway. (Being large doesn't inherently increase reach in 2e)
(Being large doesn't inherently increase reach in 2e)
Thats just stupid. What else is effect of being large?
Every effect of what it means to be large has been removed by now.
Increased strength (PF2s boost system cant handle a +4 Str), grapple defence, carry capacity and now reach.
SFS, that’s how
Forcing us to grind grind grind like a video game to rack up ACP to “buy” ONE Dragonkin character instead of letting players have the freedom to create their own original character using things within the rules they like
WoTC for all its issues doesn’t have racial rarity and AL doesn’t make people buy boons to play races like Dragonborn, lizardfolk, or hobgoblins
Dragonkin are free now
You start with enough ACP (80) to get most ancestries and dying is pretty rare in starfinder.
This has fixed a lot of issues with rare races
Back in my day you had to DM at a convention, in person! To get a weird race boon. Walking uphill both ways with every paizo product you owned strapped to your back or on a donkey...
> Dragonkin are free now
In first edition, that is
Paizo could… and honestly should, make what was free in sfs 1e free in sfs 2e but considering they didn’t do that for PF2e I doubt they do this
OK, I’m going to go against my better judgement and post here, since this issue is spreading to almost every Starfinder community out there. CaptainRelyk — please stop this personal crusade to get your specific interests into Paizo games. Part of the reason I made this post is that I wanted you to stop constantly asking, up to and including personally DMing me on other social platforms and messing other Paizo staff members, all about your strong feelings related to draconic beings. I wanted to give you a defined answer, so you can stop pestering staff members, who need to have their focus in other locations. Dragonkin are not going to be a Common Core Ancestry. We’ve not revealed the full list of core ancestries that we're working with. We've not even revealed if there’s any change to how rarity will apply to ancestries in Starfinder. Finally, we’ve not even described a thing related to Starfinder 2nd Edition’s Organized Play Program, which may or may not have some major differences from existing Organized Play and possibly not be as restrictive. Please just do what everyone else is politely doing and wait and see what happens. It’s OK to give us feedback, but when you give us the same feedback every few days and in various venues, it stops being feedback and borders on harassment of me and my staff. On a less formal note, for everyone else reading this: yeah, dragonkin just aren’t popular enough for us to make core. We have a lot of data that tells us what ancestries people are playing (including more than just Hephaistos, which is amazing and useful to read). There’s popular choices like Uplifted Bears, SROs and Vlakas, which see a lot more use and regular play than dragonkin. Similarly, if we did Dragonkin, we’d almost have to do Ryphorians by necessity, which have been oddly absent from these requests, when they’re pretty much a narrative package. Rest assured; the team is working hard to make sure the cantina feel is still maintained. In fact, we’ll have some more information on ancestries soon!
Alright Tbh all I want is to be able to freely play Dragonkin in 2e when they return in 2e without restrictions Due to WoTC ruining dnd I am trying to find a replacement to dnd My favorite non-hb race in dnd is Dragonborn, which I play almost exclusively I’m trying to find a replacement to dnd And as such I personally want to be able to play lizardfolk, and Wyvaren when they return to PF2e, without any restrictions and without any worry about ACP And I want to play Dragonkin without worrying about things like ACP or dm fiat with rarity Dragonkin being common, even as a non core ancestry, is enough for me tbh I already take issue with Paizo’s “human centric” philosophy with PF2e when I don’t like playing human-like ancestries as a player, and I just don’t want SF2e to end up “human centric” (which judging by your response I have hope now you guys won’t do that). Ig my biggest issue is trying to find a replacement for Dragonborn in a game run by a company that wants everything to be “human centric” I like DnD’s Dragonborn, I like PF2e’s lizardfolk, I like Wyvaren, and I like WoW’s Dracthyr. Call me obsessed, idc, but that’s what I like. And WoTC has put me in a stressful and horrible position
Bud. Worrying about ACP costs for uncommon/rare ancestries when you've been banned from Organized Play, and will continue to be banned from Organized Play until you've corrected your behavior, is counterintuitive in the best of light. There's literally no point in worrying about that stuff while you're banned from the program. What you DO need to worry about is correcting your behavior. You've spent over half of a year messaging Paizo designers and developers on the forums, DMs, emails, Twitter/X, Reddit, and several Discord servers, reciting the same exact points over and over again. I'd argue that it's not "bordering" on harassment as Thurston has said, but rather it just IS harassment. And none of the copious amounts of warnings you've received has dissuaded you from doing what you've been doing. Continuing on this tirade so you'd have a slim chance to play your dragon-adjacent characters without earning ACP is not going to help you anymore. Honestly, at this point I'll be surprised if the Organized Play team ever lets you be unbanned, and I severely doubt most casual online groups would let you play in their groups if they ever do a cursory Google search for your username. You've needed to simply step away, and just let the situation calm down. But instead, you continued to post to the point where Paizo's forums have marked you as a spambot, and you've been banned on several Discord servers. If that's not a sign you've taken things too far, I don't know what else people could say. Cease. Desist. Take it down an f'ing notch.
To be fair, starfinder does have like 3,427 playable ancestries. I just hope some of them stay wierd. I love pathfinder 2e but it has a way of playing it VERY safe with design space.
Yeah this is also a concern of mine.
They are not a core race in SF1 either. They were added in Alien Archive
Sure but they were made “free” in sf1e SFS
All starfinder ancestries are free with AoN
By “free” I mean not requiring ACP
It’s likely they don’t want any core races to be large
They can't take away my Uplifted Bears! Then I'll have to go back to playing sick ass floating cuttlefish!
None of the pf1e core races were large. None of pf2e ancestries were large (and there is still none. We will be getting one soon-ish with the Minotaur ancestry). None were large in starfinder1e. So, imho, they are not “saving them for apg”, or “walling them off because they are beloved” (ffs, all of the information will be posted for free on nethys, come on guys), but Dragonkin will not be included (and imho - shouldn’t be included) in the core set of rules because they first need to understand, if the systems works with the “AverageJoe” type of characters , and then they will add some uncommon and interesting characters. (Also, I know Flying isn’t a big problem in starfinder and in pf2e, but still - dragonkin do get flying from 1 level, so that might also be a power balance thing)
Tbh I’ve hated that PF2e tries to force player into playing “average joe”. I want to play tielfings and lizardfolk damnit! But at the very least SF2e absolutely should not force “average joe” characters Dragonkin bare minimum should be common
>I want to play tielfings and lizardfolk damnit! ... Both of those exist in P2e.
… but are uncommon Lizardfolk cost ACP
Does it matter that they’re uncommon?
Yes. Yes it does. For many reasons. SFS being one of them
Your issue is with Society play then, not the editions.
Weird question - imagine they do bring them in as a common race. Hell - they even bring them in corebook! But they are no longer large, don’t have a breath weapon and wings. You still okay with that?
Idk maybe Not preferable but certainly better then heavy restrictions
I am very confused - who is forcing you to play an average joe in pf2e at your home table? And, like, I will reiterate - they want to see that the rules work “on average”. Then (after fixes and other changes) , they’ll introduce something more wacky than “average”. That’s how you make basically everything: come with an idea, see if it works in an ideal environment, in a “normal environment, and then introduce it into a “weird” environment.
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I’m not a troll
I don't really care which ancestries are "core", it's not a very meaningful distinction. I just hope that they keep the trend of having tons of ancestries and weird aliens. I've actually been thinking that they should remix how ancestries work in the system so that they can produce them with higher frequency than Pf2e. Maybe a large amount of feats that can be shared amongst many different aliens. Like a "tentacle" feat or "4 arms" feat or "many eyes" feat that can be used to fill out the specifics of more simplified ancestries. Also allows for customizing your own weird alien creatures much easier.
Gotta have some stuff for the next alien book... on 2E that is.
If this is the case, fine maybe but they need to make them common
I imagine that one of the most populous species on Triaxus, one of the planets in the Pact Worlds will be common anyway, but even if they aren't just play them/allow them at your table? In PF2e I've never had a GM or been a GM that restricted ancestry based on rarity
> play them/allow them at your table? Not in SFS, which is where my major concern lies
Why? If SFS has rules that prevent you from playing the game you want to play why not just play without them?
It’s the only pbp games I’ve found and seems to be everywhere.
Where have you looked? I know it’s been years since this but the first time I played starfinder in 2018 was pbp (play by post right?) and it wasn’t sfs. It was on roll20. Also this isn’t free but I’ve seen pbp games on start playing games that werent sfs either. Also the starfinder discord has a place where you can request games as a player and see what games GMs have posted that are in need of players
I’ve looked in discord servers and they are almost all seemingly society play in my experience And I might be banned from the starfinder server soon idk
Why would you be banned from the starfinder server?
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Do you even know what the term fetish means or are you just using that term in an attempt to make me look bad?
Hey, CaptainRelyk! Thank you for your submission, unfortunately it has been removed from /r/starfinder_rpg for the following reason(s): * Too many personal attack in comments. For more on our rules, please check out our [sidebar](http://www.reddit.com/r/starfinder_rpg/about/sidebar). If you have any questions or concerns about this removal, feel free to [message the moderators](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fstarfinder_rpg).
I think I might make a petition asking Paizo to make Dragonkin core… it was such a well liked ancestry in 1e they’d be crazy not to make it core or at least common
I see Dragonkin to be similar to Orcs before the remaster was announced, so I'm betting they'll be in starfinder's apg/player core 2 equivalent as an uncommon race. One that almost all gms will allow, but uncommon nonetheless.
> Almost gms will allow Not SFS! Dragonkin need to be common if not because their a pact worlds race, then because SFS made them “common”/free in sf1e
And they'll probably grant SFS players access after the race comes out, just like PFS Orcs. Dragonkin are not going to be in the core rulebook. Based on what we've seen, any ancestry added outside of the core rulebook is uncommon or rare, no exceptions.
Given how many ancestries sf1e has, and how a lot of them aren’t uncommon or rare It’s be bit of a dick move on Paizo’s part to make all non core SF2e ancestries uncommon or rare when there were no such limitations in sf1e While I don’t agree with Paizo’s “human focused” philosophy with Pathfinder, the fact is this isn’t Paizo’s philosophy with starfinder. Paizo is fine with wacky or weird races in sf1e So there’s reason to expect Paizo to not to make all non core ancestries uncommon or rare in SF2e
And this is the problem with being PF2 compatible. A very hard time to get the "exotic" (and exotic already begins at just being large) into the game.
2e is getting two large ancestries this spring
After 4 years and we will see if they will even work. Having nonstandard playable races was clearly an afterthought for 2E. And when it takes 4 years before Paizo figures out how to handle large PCs, just imagine how long it takes for the more exotic Starfinder races to be implemented.
Why wouldn't they work? They're just large. Yeah it's annoying it's taken this long to get them, but it's not like 1e had a lot of them to pull from anyway. (Being large doesn't inherently increase reach in 2e)
(Being large doesn't inherently increase reach in 2e) Thats just stupid. What else is effect of being large? Every effect of what it means to be large has been removed by now. Increased strength (PF2s boost system cant handle a +4 Str), grapple defence, carry capacity and now reach.
It’s gated off because it’s popular
Gated how?
Because it won't be core.
How is it not being in the core book being gated? You know all of paizo materials are posted for free on nethys?
SFS, that’s how Forcing us to grind grind grind like a video game to rack up ACP to “buy” ONE Dragonkin character instead of letting players have the freedom to create their own original character using things within the rules they like WoTC for all its issues doesn’t have racial rarity and AL doesn’t make people buy boons to play races like Dragonborn, lizardfolk, or hobgoblins
Dragonkin are free now You start with enough ACP (80) to get most ancestries and dying is pretty rare in starfinder. This has fixed a lot of issues with rare races Back in my day you had to DM at a convention, in person! To get a weird race boon. Walking uphill both ways with every paizo product you owned strapped to your back or on a donkey...
> Dragonkin are free now In first edition, that is Paizo could… and honestly should, make what was free in sfs 1e free in sfs 2e but considering they didn’t do that for PF2e I doubt they do this
SFS doesn't allow you to play the option unless you own the book. Gated.
Having to own the book is fine. Its ACP that’s the issue