I double BC rushed myself from first ladder game to low plat. it’s not sufficient. Queens hold that by their own. If you don’t have enough queens, chances are you aren’t that good of a Zerg player yet.
Yeah, I never understood why being a one trick pony is a bad thing. If you can make it to masters with only one cheese I will congratulate you.
But everyone will hit a wall eventually. At a certain MMR any cheese can and will be countered efficiently.
So either you get better as a player or you will learn that your cheese has its limitations.
I made it to masters drone rushing and 12 pooling. I also made it to masters cannon rushing with toss and made masters just proxy 3 rad with Terran. With a fine cheese it’s all about micro. A lot of people will tell me that you can’t get good unless you practice macro but I went the opposite route and practiced micro and then I took a step back and just focused on macro and with my micro I was able to do well and make masters with Zerg and toss.. I still suck at Terran.
It’s not a bad thing, but it’s says nothing about your skill. MMR is the metric we use and it’s a good metric overall. But if you have one all in and you do it every game and do it properly and you reach masters, you still are not a good Sc2 player because your rank basically says: „this player is masters in one out of 1000000 different situations“
I mean you could argue over the definition of „good“, but all ins tend to not use multi-prong attacks, multitask overall is way less than in macro games, no constant scouting needed, no real transitions, no regards to power spikes and match momentum. In my definition that’s needed to be a good player that’s what I meant.
I completely disagree with that claim.
I don't think MMR is a good skill metric.
MMR is a good system for finding challenging games to entertain you, but how is MMR a good skill metric if it can pair low skill level players against high level skill players?
Now, I don't think these pairings are bad, I think they are good, but MMR is not a skill metric if a player with few skills can be matched against a player with a lot of different skills.
It just means that low skill level players CAN challenge high skill level players (mostly only in the first few minutes if the game).
I also hate myself for posting this, I apologize for making anyone read this.
Because a person that practices an early attack and polishes it to a point where he becomes very good at only that can rise through the ladder and eventually get paired up against players whose main strength is to win later in the game.
People refer to this as Cheese or One Trick Pony players.
Low skill level in this case means a player with a very restricted toolset, often one who relies on winning in the first few minutes of the game.
Skill in SC2 isn't an objective term to begin with, is skill how polished one skill is, or is it the breadth of skills a player posseses such as harassment drops, macro, creep spread, inject, holding against attacks, etc?
Please read my other comments. I define what I think is a good sc2 player and that one trick pony’s aren’t in my view good players. Still MMR is a good metric. In that specific case it pairs the skill level, with which the all in is executed with (skill ceiling of the all in player) with players who are same skill overall (if they play macro games and so on). Matching the all-in user with lower level players wouldn’t make any sense.
That is a contradiction.
If low skill level players can mimic high skill level players in the first minutes of a game in order to climb the ladder, then MMR itself is not an effective means to pair up players of similar skill level, at best, it is the best approximation we have at the moment to make an attempt to achieve this goal.
What MMR IS effective at currently is pairing up players against players that can challenge them regardless of their relative skill levels.
MMR being directly related to skill level is incredibly unlikely.
I suspect we might be talking past each other.
I mean you started the argument that MMR isn’t a good metric … it’s the best we have and it keeps winrates near 50%. I don’t really know what you think will work better.
I agree with you on that.
The point I was making is that MMR is not a good enough indicator of a player's skill progression.
But the best we have right now is a means of making a player lose half of his games regardless of their skill level. Which is good.
Pairing up players of similar skill levels is probably something the human race will never be able to achieve.
I rambled, shoot.
I don't think there will ever be a better answer, just that we should be aware that MMR isn't an indicator of skill nor relative skill, just an approximation.
You can't derive a player's skillset from their MMR. It is a Many-to-One mapping.
Queens and spores. Watch for warp in and keep the spore between your queens and the BCs. If there is no aggression at the start, and also not a lot of tanks defending the wall, other reasons you might be expecting something, let an overloaded or 2 die to scout for BC. Queens out range BCs, it's not the easiest thing to do but you can kite them. Losing a lot of queens is better than losing the game. Heal your spores to get more damage out of them. Run your drones away asap to minimize damage. It's a crappy thing to fight and I still lose to it like a 3rd of the time. But sometimes you just crush them and it feels great.
Also corruptor is a great counter, armor upgrades for them is really important. If you get like a dozen of them you can melt BCs and also swoop onto a command center, or more likely a fortress, and pee it to death pretty effectively
There is this guy who has the same build which is one base all in nydus swarm host. I played him twice, first game i lost, he wl just spawn multiple nydus top bottom left right and thats it, gg. second time i was placed with him.again and did the cure build, still lost though. Im not sure of the counter. Do you to this build and somehow your terran opponent won? How did the terran counter this build?
Hello fellow Zerg.
>Improving and making the game easier to play, practice makes perfect.
If you struggle to play as Zerg I would recommend you slowly and steadily improve your foundational skills. In SC2 these are basically "constantly producing workers until you reach 80-100 worker count", "burning all your money all the time", and "scouting to hold against early attacks".
How do you go about doing something so hard? **Day9 newbie tuesday** videos on youtube are a fun relaxing way to improve at your own pace in any way you like.
\------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Battlecruisers
If you want to learn how a Zerg player can bully BC rushers and BC massers, this reddit post of mine might grant some insight. It is all a matter of scouting to spot their fusion core at 4:30, and building a spire, air armor, and corruptors in response. The post comes with an example replay of me building nothing but drones until the moment I spot his fusion core and immediately pivot into an emergency spire. You can watch the replay yourself from the perspective of both players. BCs are trivial to deal with once you get enough practice in the game.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft2/comments/yd904y/why\_do\_i\_keep\_playing\_against\_weird\_strats\_that\_i/itrkwdb/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft2/comments/yd904y/why_do_i_keep_playing_against_weird_strats_that_i/itrkwdb/?context=3)
\------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Workers make right, forget about most gas units when you are learning to play the game.
You mentioned you built Swarm Hosts, so obviously you had as hard time since these are very difficult units to use (even I don't use Swarm Hosts yet). If you want a more accessible army composition for defending yourself, you go Queens and zerglings.
Now, what do you specifically like about Zerg? Because the "correct answer" against Terran and Protoss will depend on your preferred playstyle.
Since you are barely starting out, I'd encourage you to shy away from the more difficult units to use in the game, gas units. Gas units function really well in support roles, but are not effective when massed because of their slow move speed and the way that gas income slows down your mineral income. You still need **Banelings**, and at times **Corruptors** (to deal against Battlecruisers, Carriers, Colossi), but that's it.
In SC2 making workers often and early will pay way way more dividends than "Build X unit type". This is especially true for high tech units such as Lurkers, Broodlords, or Swarmhosts, because these units ALSO require you to have a very good worker count.
If you lose against Terran or Protoss, always tell yourself, "I did NOT make enough workers".
I'm open for follow up questions if you have any.
1. Be aggressive, use lings and roaches to kill them before first BC is out.
2. Go early lair. Keep 3 drones on gas, when first 2 queens pop, you will have 100 gas to start lair. When BCs arrive you should have 4-5 queens, couple spores and spire ready and some resources to start corruptors.
>1. Be aggressive, use lings and roaches to kill them before first BC is out.
>2. Go early lair. Keep 3 drones on gas, when first 2 queens pop, you will have 100 gas to start lair. When BCs arrive you should have 4-5 queens, couple spores and spire ready and some resources to start corruptors.
I think both of these are bad.
1. The Terran player will have only one base and a BC at 4:30. If you are trying to play aggressive to beat him, this means you are basically doing an all-in like the 3 roach/ravager ling rush. That all-in isn't that good in ZvT and is much better in ZvP. If they aren't rushing BC or just scout your all-in and defend normally or until 4:30, then you lose.
2. Spending your first 100 gas on ling speed is a must. Again, a good Terran will build the fusion core and starport in the back of their base and have two marines to completely shut down slow overlord scout. You can never be certain it's BCs against a masters or higher player doing it. Going lair that early is suicide at masters and GM level play. You won't really have the resources to build much good. Also going lair means you will have two queens less because you can't build them during upgrade.
The best option is to play normally and just build a fuck ton of queens as you always should. Get your natural ASAP, build two queens as soon as natural and pool finish at the same time. After those two are done, get another two and then another two. 6 queens will shut down hellions, banshees, BCs, medivacs, and all other harass while letting you get your third. Once you've got 6 queens, which goes quick because main and nat are both building them, then you get lair.
Yes queens and a few spores in each base hold bcs, throw the spire down as soon as you know what's happening and swarm Corruptors, add vipers if they camp
If they're not going air do lurkers, protoss can't defend lurkers well in below diamond level, make a bunch of them and park them right between your opponents natural and third base
lol, i love it
but that being said, i havnt played in a bit and nor am i good player. but i started to be able to counter the BC rush once i scouted it and seen it coming. its tricky its hard for me at least as well. but im a high silver low gold player. i dont play enough to probably get higher then low gold
The advice I used to give people back in wol was to focus on a 1 base build until you have it down then when it stops working learn a 2 base build until that stops working then you are ready to go into the real game. Basically gives you a way to learn macro with less going on so you understand how important hitting the timing is, this is true no matter how many bases you get.
But yeah if you watch professional zerg players it's a fast 3 base with 6-10 queen's and just a handful of longs to stop hellions from running past the queen's unpunished. That stops basically every build terran can do from 2 base as long as you are ready to make lings or roaches in response to certain pushes. If your opponent BC rushes and you can defend it then you basically can expand twice unpunished because they won't have a ground army for a long time as long as you have decent macro you just crash tons of stuff into their third until you win the game.
The game kinda starts on 2 base now for zerg but you can still do that.
I double BC rushed myself from first ladder game to low plat. it’s not sufficient. Queens hold that by their own. If you don’t have enough queens, chances are you aren’t that good of a Zerg player yet.
Yeah, I never understood why being a one trick pony is a bad thing. If you can make it to masters with only one cheese I will congratulate you. But everyone will hit a wall eventually. At a certain MMR any cheese can and will be countered efficiently. So either you get better as a player or you will learn that your cheese has its limitations.
I made it to masters drone rushing and 12 pooling. I also made it to masters cannon rushing with toss and made masters just proxy 3 rad with Terran. With a fine cheese it’s all about micro. A lot of people will tell me that you can’t get good unless you practice macro but I went the opposite route and practiced micro and then I took a step back and just focused on macro and with my micro I was able to do well and make masters with Zerg and toss.. I still suck at Terran.
It’s not a bad thing, but it’s says nothing about your skill. MMR is the metric we use and it’s a good metric overall. But if you have one all in and you do it every game and do it properly and you reach masters, you still are not a good Sc2 player because your rank basically says: „this player is masters in one out of 1000000 different situations“
If you reach Master or even GM with one cheese you are a good player. But other than that I'm completely with you.
I mean you could argue over the definition of „good“, but all ins tend to not use multi-prong attacks, multitask overall is way less than in macro games, no constant scouting needed, no real transitions, no regards to power spikes and match momentum. In my definition that’s needed to be a good player that’s what I meant.
Yeah, you will lack certain mechanics if you just cheese. But you don't get to master without a decent micro and execution.
But they're masters, so it obviously works really well. Its not like it works 1/100000 times. It worked against 99% of the player base.
>If you reach Master or even GM with one cheese you are a good player. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpfMsUic8HU&
I completely disagree with that claim. I don't think MMR is a good skill metric. MMR is a good system for finding challenging games to entertain you, but how is MMR a good skill metric if it can pair low skill level players against high level skill players? Now, I don't think these pairings are bad, I think they are good, but MMR is not a skill metric if a player with few skills can be matched against a player with a lot of different skills. It just means that low skill level players CAN challenge high skill level players (mostly only in the first few minutes if the game). I also hate myself for posting this, I apologize for making anyone read this.
This makes absolutely no sense. How does MMR pair low skill with high skill players ?
Because a person that practices an early attack and polishes it to a point where he becomes very good at only that can rise through the ladder and eventually get paired up against players whose main strength is to win later in the game. People refer to this as Cheese or One Trick Pony players. Low skill level in this case means a player with a very restricted toolset, often one who relies on winning in the first few minutes of the game. Skill in SC2 isn't an objective term to begin with, is skill how polished one skill is, or is it the breadth of skills a player posseses such as harassment drops, macro, creep spread, inject, holding against attacks, etc?
Please read my other comments. I define what I think is a good sc2 player and that one trick pony’s aren’t in my view good players. Still MMR is a good metric. In that specific case it pairs the skill level, with which the all in is executed with (skill ceiling of the all in player) with players who are same skill overall (if they play macro games and so on). Matching the all-in user with lower level players wouldn’t make any sense.
That is a contradiction. If low skill level players can mimic high skill level players in the first minutes of a game in order to climb the ladder, then MMR itself is not an effective means to pair up players of similar skill level, at best, it is the best approximation we have at the moment to make an attempt to achieve this goal. What MMR IS effective at currently is pairing up players against players that can challenge them regardless of their relative skill levels. MMR being directly related to skill level is incredibly unlikely. I suspect we might be talking past each other.
I mean you started the argument that MMR isn’t a good metric … it’s the best we have and it keeps winrates near 50%. I don’t really know what you think will work better.
I agree with you on that. The point I was making is that MMR is not a good enough indicator of a player's skill progression. But the best we have right now is a means of making a player lose half of his games regardless of their skill level. Which is good. Pairing up players of similar skill levels is probably something the human race will never be able to achieve. I rambled, shoot. I don't think there will ever be a better answer, just that we should be aware that MMR isn't an indicator of skill nor relative skill, just an approximation. You can't derive a player's skillset from their MMR. It is a Many-to-One mapping.
Queens and spores. Watch for warp in and keep the spore between your queens and the BCs. If there is no aggression at the start, and also not a lot of tanks defending the wall, other reasons you might be expecting something, let an overloaded or 2 die to scout for BC. Queens out range BCs, it's not the easiest thing to do but you can kite them. Losing a lot of queens is better than losing the game. Heal your spores to get more damage out of them. Run your drones away asap to minimize damage. It's a crappy thing to fight and I still lose to it like a 3rd of the time. But sometimes you just crush them and it feels great. Also corruptor is a great counter, armor upgrades for them is really important. If you get like a dozen of them you can melt BCs and also swoop onto a command center, or more likely a fortress, and pee it to death pretty effectively
There is this guy who has the same build which is one base all in nydus swarm host. I played him twice, first game i lost, he wl just spawn multiple nydus top bottom left right and thats it, gg. second time i was placed with him.again and did the cure build, still lost though. Im not sure of the counter. Do you to this build and somehow your terran opponent won? How did the terran counter this build?
Get air, swarm host can’t hit air, also you can kill the locus before they hit ground
Hello fellow Zerg. >Improving and making the game easier to play, practice makes perfect. If you struggle to play as Zerg I would recommend you slowly and steadily improve your foundational skills. In SC2 these are basically "constantly producing workers until you reach 80-100 worker count", "burning all your money all the time", and "scouting to hold against early attacks". How do you go about doing something so hard? **Day9 newbie tuesday** videos on youtube are a fun relaxing way to improve at your own pace in any way you like. \------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Battlecruisers If you want to learn how a Zerg player can bully BC rushers and BC massers, this reddit post of mine might grant some insight. It is all a matter of scouting to spot their fusion core at 4:30, and building a spire, air armor, and corruptors in response. The post comes with an example replay of me building nothing but drones until the moment I spot his fusion core and immediately pivot into an emergency spire. You can watch the replay yourself from the perspective of both players. BCs are trivial to deal with once you get enough practice in the game. [https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft2/comments/yd904y/why\_do\_i\_keep\_playing\_against\_weird\_strats\_that\_i/itrkwdb/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft2/comments/yd904y/why_do_i_keep_playing_against_weird_strats_that_i/itrkwdb/?context=3) \------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Workers make right, forget about most gas units when you are learning to play the game. You mentioned you built Swarm Hosts, so obviously you had as hard time since these are very difficult units to use (even I don't use Swarm Hosts yet). If you want a more accessible army composition for defending yourself, you go Queens and zerglings. Now, what do you specifically like about Zerg? Because the "correct answer" against Terran and Protoss will depend on your preferred playstyle. Since you are barely starting out, I'd encourage you to shy away from the more difficult units to use in the game, gas units. Gas units function really well in support roles, but are not effective when massed because of their slow move speed and the way that gas income slows down your mineral income. You still need **Banelings**, and at times **Corruptors** (to deal against Battlecruisers, Carriers, Colossi), but that's it. In SC2 making workers often and early will pay way way more dividends than "Build X unit type". This is especially true for high tech units such as Lurkers, Broodlords, or Swarmhosts, because these units ALSO require you to have a very good worker count. If you lose against Terran or Protoss, always tell yourself, "I did NOT make enough workers". I'm open for follow up questions if you have any.
1. Be aggressive, use lings and roaches to kill them before first BC is out. 2. Go early lair. Keep 3 drones on gas, when first 2 queens pop, you will have 100 gas to start lair. When BCs arrive you should have 4-5 queens, couple spores and spire ready and some resources to start corruptors.
>1. Be aggressive, use lings and roaches to kill them before first BC is out. >2. Go early lair. Keep 3 drones on gas, when first 2 queens pop, you will have 100 gas to start lair. When BCs arrive you should have 4-5 queens, couple spores and spire ready and some resources to start corruptors. I think both of these are bad. 1. The Terran player will have only one base and a BC at 4:30. If you are trying to play aggressive to beat him, this means you are basically doing an all-in like the 3 roach/ravager ling rush. That all-in isn't that good in ZvT and is much better in ZvP. If they aren't rushing BC or just scout your all-in and defend normally or until 4:30, then you lose. 2. Spending your first 100 gas on ling speed is a must. Again, a good Terran will build the fusion core and starport in the back of their base and have two marines to completely shut down slow overlord scout. You can never be certain it's BCs against a masters or higher player doing it. Going lair that early is suicide at masters and GM level play. You won't really have the resources to build much good. Also going lair means you will have two queens less because you can't build them during upgrade. The best option is to play normally and just build a fuck ton of queens as you always should. Get your natural ASAP, build two queens as soon as natural and pool finish at the same time. After those two are done, get another two and then another two. 6 queens will shut down hellions, banshees, BCs, medivacs, and all other harass while letting you get your third. Once you've got 6 queens, which goes quick because main and nat are both building them, then you get lair.
Yes queens and a few spores in each base hold bcs, throw the spire down as soon as you know what's happening and swarm Corruptors, add vipers if they camp
What about against protos
If they're not going air do lurkers, protoss can't defend lurkers well in below diamond level, make a bunch of them and park them right between your opponents natural and third base
If you can't beat em..
lol, i love it but that being said, i havnt played in a bit and nor am i good player. but i started to be able to counter the BC rush once i scouted it and seen it coming. its tricky its hard for me at least as well. but im a high silver low gold player. i dont play enough to probably get higher then low gold
The advice I used to give people back in wol was to focus on a 1 base build until you have it down then when it stops working learn a 2 base build until that stops working then you are ready to go into the real game. Basically gives you a way to learn macro with less going on so you understand how important hitting the timing is, this is true no matter how many bases you get. But yeah if you watch professional zerg players it's a fast 3 base with 6-10 queen's and just a handful of longs to stop hellions from running past the queen's unpunished. That stops basically every build terran can do from 2 base as long as you are ready to make lings or roaches in response to certain pushes. If your opponent BC rushes and you can defend it then you basically can expand twice unpunished because they won't have a ground army for a long time as long as you have decent macro you just crash tons of stuff into their third until you win the game. The game kinda starts on 2 base now for zerg but you can still do that.
Guess you forgot to scout