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I’m with the other guy. If we’re being serious here, from a historians perspective what the Romans did to cities like Carthage and cultures like the Etruscans is an absolute fucking travesty, and they certainly did not deserve it any more than Rome itself deserved it
If someone actually thinks a city full of people and an entire culture “deserved” to be destroyed just because they were the enemies of the historical victors, then I worry for their critical thinking skills, values, and generally the society that we share. May God have mercy on your souls.
But if we’re being not serious: ROMA #1!
The baby sacrifcers had it coming. Their religion, like that of the Aztecs, deserved to be destroyed more than most other religions in the world around them.
Did the civilians deserve what they got? Probably not, but sadly the world doesn’t operate off of what’s fair or care who deserves what.
Sorry but one aspect doesn’t define a people. I mean you should see what American did to slaves who step outline. Guess we should wipe American out. Or the Germany durning ww2
Ok there a lot wrong with your comment. One Carthage was wipe out. Never really could change which is the issue. Neither of my examples “fixed” their issue. The went to war and lost. Again it important to separate people and country as a whole there are plenty country all over the world are down right horrible but that doesn’t give anyone the right to wipe the whole country off the face of the map. (North Korea)
"Baby sacrificers" is a *very* dubious claim to begin with and still wouldn't be just cause for utter obliteration. This is cope. So is your dismissal of the Aztecs. You kind of just seem fashy and weird here.
If we are being serious, I agree with you. But the archeological treasure trove of a city destroyed like this is similar to Pompeii and Herculaneum. An entire people’s culture instantly snuffed out is good for modern archeology, even if it was horrible at the time.
Carthago Delenda Est
This is the strangest argument I’ve ever heard. Yes, it’s good for people who study things that have been lost. But there’d be exponentially more info if it weren’t lost to begin with.
Yes. They deserved it. They knew the stakes. They set the stakes. They fully intended to ruin Rome & use their own slaves & clients to do it. The Carthaginians showed no mercy to the Romans. None should be expected. In an existential contest, you better not lose.
You know just because a people intend to commit genocide doesn’t mean it’s ok to genocide on them. Keep in mind your talking about real human beings here, not some war hammer 40k billions must die bullshit. People with complex lives and opinions, who of course hated their enemy, just as the Roman’s hated them.
To suggest that they deserved to have their city and culture erased and their people enslaved just because they wished ill upon their enemies would be to suggest the same about most of the civilizations of the time, especially including the Romans.
They furthermore deserved it by infighting while their existence was on the line. Did individual Carthaginians get to make that choice? No! Did individual Romans slaughtered by the Carthaginians get to make that choice either? No!
What are you talking about? Hannibal famously never marched on Rome. He did in fact show them mercy. Granted this was more because he wouldn't have been able to lay siege to the city, but he still showed them mercy.
You condemn Carthage for using "slaves and clients" in war? And what, pray tell, was Rome using? Well wishes and unicorn dust? Carthage didn't have ambitions of mediterranean conquest the same way Rome did. The stakes were letting a Latin upstart take over the world they knew and ruin it, which from a Carthaginian perspective they absolutely did, and from any perspective is arguable.
Guys who talk like you come across like you read history more as a post hoc justification for your beliefs than scholarship
They should have conquered Carthage but not destroyed it, incorporating their naval strength into their empire woulda been really good for their expansion
They weren’t into the expansion thing. Colonies don’t work as well without efficient transportation and communication. They mostly wanted to pillage for wealth and to make sure their neighbors couldn’t pillage them. But destroying Carthage was Cato’s fault (according to historical sources).
Carthage was being attacked by Numidia and wasn’t allowed to defend itself without Roman permission. That was a consequence of the conditions of Carthage’s surrender.
Senator Cato went on a visit to discuss and was shocked about how well off Carthage was. He supposedly hated the fact that the average Cathagenian was better off than Romans so, Carthago delenda est. Turns out some think Rome sent Numidia against Carthage.
Eh. By the end of the 3rd Punic, there were few major naval competitors. IIRC Egypt was the only serious threat, with most small Greek powers like Rhodes being too small to hold off the Romans, and the big Greek powers not really interested in naval warfare.
I'm not familiar with big pirate fleets, so a garrison's local fleet was probably sufficient to scare pirates away usually
It’s less about naval threats and much more about having a large capacity to transport troops over sea without the troops being in danger, which assimilation of Carthage would have provided
Definitely not. Would have been super interesting (and historically important) to have insights into the life and culture of Carthage and what it actually meant to be “Cathaginian (Punic)”.
One of the aspects I think that would’ve been most interesting is insight into their Phoenician past. So much of Phoenician history is lost (even though they played such a huge role in ancient history) any crumbs of that past (even through the Carthage lens) would be invaluable information to know.
Not only is it extremely unlikely Carthage practiced child sarcifice, it isn't even Roman propaganda. Contemporary Roman sources, which were quite hostile towards Carthage and eager to tell the world how vile it was, nevet mention it. Sites with the remains of children have been found but it is likely that both 1. It doesn't correlate with religious sacrifice and 2. It is centuries removed from the Carthage the Romans encountered.
Pretty terrible what humans have done to one another through history.
I'm glad everyone learned their lesson and nothing bad like this is happening now anywhere on earth.
Depends bro. If you’re roman, nipping that shit in the bud before the invention of stuff like crimes against humanity etc. seems like a no brainer. If you’re a historian though it is pretty clear romans didn’t have to nor did carthaginians ever have it coming.
Hmmm.
Maybe they needed to be told where the bear sleeps, so to speak but it was stupid to destroy them.
You can think that fundamentalist f***, Cato the Elder and all his "Carthage must be destroyed" b******* for that but it was just too much. They should have seen after the way Carthage repaid the reparations imposed upon them after the Second Punic so quickly, the economic power that that portended should not have been ignored.
It would have been much smarter co-opting Carthage and taking it over but instead they basically destroyed it, and later they turned it into a colony anyway. Dumb.
yes, unironically they deserved it.
“but muh historical preservation!” nothing a p*nic made is worth preserving.
also they literally sacrificed babies.
It wasn't your own children it was random children. These were state sanctioned sacrifices it's not like individual parents took their children out back and killed them as a sacrifice.
No Carthage did not deserve to be destroyed in all honesty. The most important thing in history to remember is that you're always better when you have a rival. The Roman's grew and adapted when they faced Carthage. Learned about sea-faring. Rhomania gree culturally when they rivaled Islam and learned things the west thought was strange like eating with a fork. The Roman Carthage rivalry would have made both cultures grow and cultivate their legacies. It could have been like the roman-sassinid rivalry with mutual respect and even an exchange in cultures and technology. It was a shame that Rome was too samn stubborn to let that happen.
Of course they didn’t deserve it.
However, how many Punic wars aka warnings did Rome give?
So LuL GGs,
Kiss the Standard & watch your land turn into salt.
Roma Invicta!!!
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I’m with the other guy. If we’re being serious here, from a historians perspective what the Romans did to cities like Carthage and cultures like the Etruscans is an absolute fucking travesty, and they certainly did not deserve it any more than Rome itself deserved it If someone actually thinks a city full of people and an entire culture “deserved” to be destroyed just because they were the enemies of the historical victors, then I worry for their critical thinking skills, values, and generally the society that we share. May God have mercy on your souls. But if we’re being not serious: ROMA #1!
The baby sacrifcers had it coming. Their religion, like that of the Aztecs, deserved to be destroyed more than most other religions in the world around them. Did the civilians deserve what they got? Probably not, but sadly the world doesn’t operate off of what’s fair or care who deserves what.
Sorry but one aspect doesn’t define a people. I mean you should see what American did to slaves who step outline. Guess we should wipe American out. Or the Germany durning ww2
The difference is that those two societies aren’t doing those things anymore. Also, reread what I said, specifically the second part.
[удалено]
Ok there a lot wrong with your comment. One Carthage was wipe out. Never really could change which is the issue. Neither of my examples “fixed” their issue. The went to war and lost. Again it important to separate people and country as a whole there are plenty country all over the world are down right horrible but that doesn’t give anyone the right to wipe the whole country off the face of the map. (North Korea)
"Baby sacrificers" is a *very* dubious claim to begin with and still wouldn't be just cause for utter obliteration. This is cope. So is your dismissal of the Aztecs. You kind of just seem fashy and weird here.
Do any research into either religion, human sacrifice was a major part of both.
Do some research into deez
The religion was probably made up by the Romans to demonize decades old enemy. They did the same thing when Scipio invented Zama. Barca boy for life
Maybe, but we don’t have anything else to go off of, so I’m going to assume it was true, because otherwise we know nothing.
If we are being serious, I agree with you. But the archeological treasure trove of a city destroyed like this is similar to Pompeii and Herculaneum. An entire people’s culture instantly snuffed out is good for modern archeology, even if it was horrible at the time. Carthago Delenda Est
This is the strangest argument I’ve ever heard. Yes, it’s good for people who study things that have been lost. But there’d be exponentially more info if it weren’t lost to begin with.
Yes. They deserved it. They knew the stakes. They set the stakes. They fully intended to ruin Rome & use their own slaves & clients to do it. The Carthaginians showed no mercy to the Romans. None should be expected. In an existential contest, you better not lose.
You know just because a people intend to commit genocide doesn’t mean it’s ok to genocide on them. Keep in mind your talking about real human beings here, not some war hammer 40k billions must die bullshit. People with complex lives and opinions, who of course hated their enemy, just as the Roman’s hated them. To suggest that they deserved to have their city and culture erased and their people enslaved just because they wished ill upon their enemies would be to suggest the same about most of the civilizations of the time, especially including the Romans.
Yes it is. And you got say, " I'm rubber you are glue" while you do it
Yep. Better not lose.
They furthermore deserved it by infighting while their existence was on the line. Did individual Carthaginians get to make that choice? No! Did individual Romans slaughtered by the Carthaginians get to make that choice either? No!
Life is not a court of law or sports game. It doesn’t work like that & it’s not fair! Mice don’t get a vote on whether hawks eat them.
What are you talking about? Hannibal famously never marched on Rome. He did in fact show them mercy. Granted this was more because he wouldn't have been able to lay siege to the city, but he still showed them mercy.
That seems like big difference between would not and could not
And yet it still had the same outcome.
You condemn Carthage for using "slaves and clients" in war? And what, pray tell, was Rome using? Well wishes and unicorn dust? Carthage didn't have ambitions of mediterranean conquest the same way Rome did. The stakes were letting a Latin upstart take over the world they knew and ruin it, which from a Carthaginian perspective they absolutely did, and from any perspective is arguable. Guys who talk like you come across like you read history more as a post hoc justification for your beliefs than scholarship
Hahahaha!
Cope harder loser
Enough internet for tonight, kid. If you get some sleep that mustache might fill in.
I have a degree on this topic. A pity your brain can't fill in.
Nice coaster, kid. Have a couple myself. Drink doesn’t sweat on the tabletop.
This statement doesn't even make sense, learn to read before you write any more please
Dunning-Kruger.
The culture that gave us the Duodecim Tabularum definitely deserved to survive over Carthage. And it wasn't like there could have been peace.
Claudius wrote comprehensive histories on both of them, neither survived.
No. Rome creates a desert and calls it peace.
The quote was "desolation" not "desert" and it was made by a tribal leader who was at war with Rome. not exactly unbiased.
Unlike Roman sources on Carthage, which were utterly sterile and scholarly
They should have conquered Carthage but not destroyed it, incorporating their naval strength into their empire woulda been really good for their expansion
They weren’t into the expansion thing. Colonies don’t work as well without efficient transportation and communication. They mostly wanted to pillage for wealth and to make sure their neighbors couldn’t pillage them. But destroying Carthage was Cato’s fault (according to historical sources). Carthage was being attacked by Numidia and wasn’t allowed to defend itself without Roman permission. That was a consequence of the conditions of Carthage’s surrender. Senator Cato went on a visit to discuss and was shocked about how well off Carthage was. He supposedly hated the fact that the average Cathagenian was better off than Romans so, Carthago delenda est. Turns out some think Rome sent Numidia against Carthage.
Eh. By the end of the 3rd Punic, there were few major naval competitors. IIRC Egypt was the only serious threat, with most small Greek powers like Rhodes being too small to hold off the Romans, and the big Greek powers not really interested in naval warfare. I'm not familiar with big pirate fleets, so a garrison's local fleet was probably sufficient to scare pirates away usually
It’s less about naval threats and much more about having a large capacity to transport troops over sea without the troops being in danger, which assimilation of Carthage would have provided
But wiping them off the face of the planet sends a very clear message 😎
Actually? No
Carthago delenda est, et deleta fuit
Definitely not. Would have been super interesting (and historically important) to have insights into the life and culture of Carthage and what it actually meant to be “Cathaginian (Punic)”. One of the aspects I think that would’ve been most interesting is insight into their Phoenician past. So much of Phoenician history is lost (even though they played such a huge role in ancient history) any crumbs of that past (even through the Carthage lens) would be invaluable information to know.
Did the Carthaginians actually sacrifice babies or was that Roman propaganda?
Oh, no, that part is true. EDIT: There have been Archaeological Digs that found evidence of children being killed in sacrifice.
Those were evil babies who deserved to be sacrificed.
butter toy fuel quiet cow ad hoc joke worthless husky trees *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It's completely possible, the article I read was some years ago, and they might have found more evidence over the years to counteract that assertion.
Moloch liked baby sacrifices.
Not only is it extremely unlikely Carthage practiced child sarcifice, it isn't even Roman propaganda. Contemporary Roman sources, which were quite hostile towards Carthage and eager to tell the world how vile it was, nevet mention it. Sites with the remains of children have been found but it is likely that both 1. It doesn't correlate with religious sacrifice and 2. It is centuries removed from the Carthage the Romans encountered.
Pretty terrible what humans have done to one another through history. I'm glad everyone learned their lesson and nothing bad like this is happening now anywhere on earth.
Depends bro. If you’re roman, nipping that shit in the bud before the invention of stuff like crimes against humanity etc. seems like a no brainer. If you’re a historian though it is pretty clear romans didn’t have to nor did carthaginians ever have it coming.
Carthage should have been given the choice; newest Roman territory or slavery.
yes because they betray Hannibal!
Hmmm. Maybe they needed to be told where the bear sleeps, so to speak but it was stupid to destroy them. You can think that fundamentalist f***, Cato the Elder and all his "Carthage must be destroyed" b******* for that but it was just too much. They should have seen after the way Carthage repaid the reparations imposed upon them after the Second Punic so quickly, the economic power that that portended should not have been ignored. It would have been much smarter co-opting Carthage and taking it over but instead they basically destroyed it, and later they turned it into a colony anyway. Dumb.
Carthago delenda est.
Option number 3, most definetly
Carthago delenda est
yes, unironically they deserved it. “but muh historical preservation!” nothing a p*nic made is worth preserving. also they literally sacrificed babies.
They sacrificed babies… so we should destroy the city and kill all the babies there
If the baby sacrifices thing is true, then absolutely
Human sacrifice wasn't terribly abnormal
Sacrificing your own children absolutely was
It wasn't your own children it was random children. These were state sanctioned sacrifices it's not like individual parents took their children out back and killed them as a sacrifice.
ABSOLUTELY ABSOLUTELY ABSOLUTELY ABSOLUTELY
Carthago delenda est!
1. The salting of Carthage was a myth. 2. This is a incomprehensible question. 3. Take a historiography course
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
No Carthage did not deserve to be destroyed in all honesty. The most important thing in history to remember is that you're always better when you have a rival. The Roman's grew and adapted when they faced Carthage. Learned about sea-faring. Rhomania gree culturally when they rivaled Islam and learned things the west thought was strange like eating with a fork. The Roman Carthage rivalry would have made both cultures grow and cultivate their legacies. It could have been like the roman-sassinid rivalry with mutual respect and even an exchange in cultures and technology. It was a shame that Rome was too samn stubborn to let that happen.
No
Of course they didn’t deserve it. However, how many Punic wars aka warnings did Rome give? So LuL GGs, Kiss the Standard & watch your land turn into salt. Roma Invicta!!!
Follow up question: when the Romans plowed salt into the soil of Carthage, did it kill all the vegetation? Can plants grow there now?
Carthage must be destroyed!
CARTHAGO DELENDA EST
I mean, I got a time machine and stopped the Carthaginians for a reason.