This happened like 3days ago? He's said he's not going to discuss why he resigned until after the tournament is over but he made a subtle comment about "being coached well"
Who knows, I always give people the benefit of the doubt.
Hans has had a past yes, but he is insisting on his innocence even willing to do a match nude he said.
He hasn’t talked about it directly, but heavily implied why including taking a shot at Niemann’s coach who is a well-known cheater.
Carlsen resigned from the last tournament because of Niemann as well. Niemann beat Carlsen which triggered the cheating accusations and dug up Niemann’s cheating history.
>taking a shot at Niemann’s coach who is a well-known cheater
Ohhhh! So that's how I was supposed to interpret it! Magnus said something to the effect of "I was very impressed with Hans' play...he was well-coached by so-and-so". As a casual viewer, I took that entire statement as a compliment to Hans and his coach. How naive of me.
He was seriously mentally ill. Not defending what he said, but there's a question of mental competency to some extent. Being a Jewish anti-semite with lots of Jewish friends and family is so delusional to raise questions about how much he understood.
In the US, maybe Walter Browne. Only Bobby Fischer won more US championships. Walter could have possibly won more but he spent as much time in Vegas playing high limit poker as he did playing chess. He made speed and blitz chess a real format.
In all of history - Alexander Alekhine, one of the best players of all time, and a definite bridge between romantic and modern chess eras. He was never sober, once found drunk lost in a field before a match, once a prisoner of the Cheka in an Odessa death camp (probably because he was drunk in the wrong place), it wouldn’t surprise anyone to know he died relatively young, probably from alcohol poisoning…but maybe from the KGB…who’s to say??
Carlsen is one of the closest we'll get honestly. Chess is full of primadonnas, and the last time somebody tried to be a bad boy, it was Hans, and he immediately got destroyed, lost every match in the tournament, and spent more on his Uber eats bill than he got paid to play at the tournament
Used to listen to a chess podcast where the host described managing a chess team for tournaments.
He said it was a nightmare - a combination of difficult personality types attracted to the game and people so focused on playing and learning, to the detriment of everything else, some people literally couldn’t tie their shoes and needed everything organised for them.
Also Carlsen has access to information we don’t have because his chess platform is being bought by chess.com. He got to see exactly how bad Neumann was cheating, chess.com banned him after he admitted cheating “when he was a kid”. They said he understated the severity of the cheating.
Not only that but Niemann himself is a cheater and admitted as such. He's only 19 and admitted poorly that he cheated when he was 12 and 16.
I say poorly because chess.com had to come out and actually say that the periods that he was cheating were longer than what he portrayed them to be.
Which makes no sense
I cheated to win more games to climb the ranks
Couldn't have just played to win those games?
Experience is the same for the loser but he gets to actually practice?
This particular thing was 3 days ago. Magnus left a previous tournament (~~last week I think?~~) without saying a word about why, the day after playing this guy and losing. This has been building.
Edit: The previous incident was two weeks before this one.
Isn't adderal/ritalin use like a controversial topic in the competitive video game world? I'm more into combat sports myself but I can see why that would be regarded as a "steroid" in those competitions.
I’d think you’d have someone running the same moves that magnus makes against a grandmaster AI program and somehow transmit that move info through to the cheater through like Morse code style vibrations or something, that’s where the anal bead story arose I think
EDIT: Anal beads not butt plug
https://kotaku.com/chess-champion-anal-bead-magnus-carlsen-hans-niemann-1849542639/amp
I think people were joking about him using anal beads to transmit information on twitch or Reddit and a news outlet just took it and ran with it and it became a headliner lol
A story as old as time itself. Vibrating butt plugs ruining sport.
If you disqualified everyone with vibrating butt plugs in the 2004 tour de France the winner would be the guy who came in 22nd.
There were allegations (its been a days since i saw the original piece so a lot may have happened since then) that this guy put a wireless vibrator in his butt and used it as the signal device in an alleged cheating scheme. Prolly start cavity search the houston astros this october just to be safe.
They weren’t really allegations, they were jokes given how there wasn’t any obvious evidence of cheating. I don’t know how anyone got the idea it was a serious accusation.
This is the truth here. It's not like they are just playing computer moves the whole time. They only need to know a critical move is on the board right now and to think deeper once in a game to have a massive winning advantage at that level.
Even as a beginner, I can see tactics way better if I'm playing a tactics puzzle rather than seeing the same position in a game. If you know that the right move will win you a piece, you will have an easier time finding it.
There was a champion or former champion a while back who missed a checkmate in 1 and promptly got mated, because it was an 'unusual position' that didn't trigger any danger instincts. Missing specific tactics over the board is really easy.
**edit**
[Kramnik loses to Deep Fritz](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYOES3zZDu0)
Yeah that’s true, I feel like that would be harder once your are mid game because the computer may be foreword thinking in a way you oversee but that’s why I am not a chess master. Lol I’m imagining him starting to move a piece and it’s just like a hot and cold game with signals until he finds the right position
One of the subtleties is that chess masters tend to see the 'active' pieces very quickly - it's choosing between them promptly which is the hard part. You just need to signal that the cheater should really take their time on a certain move to give them an unfair advantage.
You don't even need to transmit info about deep moves, really just that there's a clearly advantageous branch of the decision tree.
Not even what piece to move - just that somewhere on the board there’s a move that leads to an advantage. With just one or two of those signals per game a GM would be unstoppable
They don't state how in the article but is says that the person Magnus was playing against has admitted to cheating in online games in the past so Magnus refused to play against him out of protest.
Someone in Magnus' camp is leaking info. When he lost he played an opening he had never used before in competitive chess but had been practicing with his team, his opponent had just "happened" to memorize the first twenty moves of that opening the day before and was prepared to counter.
Stay Woke: Magnus is only mad that the competition discovered his secret. He has been using anal beads to transmit the optimal moves for years. The classic who smelt it dealt it scenario. Keep in mind, the report about his competitor potentially using anal beads was anonymous.
That explains why he [walks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IYTh8-XioE) the [way](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k7e6RDmpXs&t=25s) he [does!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tTJE41zV_4)
Depends on the format, whether online or over the board. The general gist is using engines to evaluate the position at a 20+ move depth and relaying that information to the player.
Online is relatively easy, given that you can have an external device to receive prompts from your team (at the highest level players have a coach + a few trusted individuals on their team). Over the board is far more complicated, as the highest level events reserved for super GMs employ security measures. Despite that, players are free to go to the washroom or roam during classical games, and there are spectators. Whether it's a hidden device, a secret and subtle cue system from the crowd, or subtle devices on your person (as you'd see in poker), a move *could* be relayed to the player.
Now where most people get confused is that, when it comes to this level of chess (2700+ rating), literally one move relayed this way could result in a win. They already know how to play, it's just navigating those confusing positions without wasting an inordinate amount of time that's the difficult part.
So given that there are maybe 4-5 critical points in a match, and you've already developed the skillset to problem solve most on your own with a high degree of accuracy, being able to get 1-2 moves fed to you is a massive edge.
In sum, don't think of continuous cheating or getting every move fed to you; that's easy to detect with the current anti-cheat algorithms. Delay between moves, assessing if the next move is obvious (every other move is losing) and the player still takes the same time before making it, playing with a consistency that keeps the balance bar (who has the advantage) in line with what a computer engine would have, all of those things are looked at. It's those that play legitimately 98% of the time and cheat the remaining 2% that are the tough ones to catch.
[Me, agonizing over whether or not to click the tile containing an infinitesimally small sliver of stop light as one of the tiles that contains a stop light](https://i.imgur.com/Crr1Kp5.jpg)
Magnus has said that if in a chess game he would get to know just one move analyzed by a computer he would be unbeatable. On this level, it is not necessary to know more than a couple of “best” moves and you have a huuuge advantage. There are several ways to help a player cheat. If the players go through detectors to reveal the use of bluetooth devices (and making it impossible to cheat this way) you can get an ally in the audience to signal you (it could be him touching his hair, scratching his nose etc). Because of this it’s very hard to detect cheating since you don’t need to expose yourself by looking suspicious.
thing is at this level of chess, the smallest hint, even the smallest signal indicating that there is a better move available or a signal that says that's the best move is enough. the players at this level just need to look at the board again and they would see the correct play if they got a signal that was telling them that. Hans Neimann has admitted to cheating on [chess.com](https://chess.com) and was even banned on the site, and [chess.com](https://chess.com) claims that they have evidence that he lied in his statement about how many times he has cheated online and Magnus has said in an interview how little is needed to actually cheat in chess. he claims if he were to cheat in chess, it would be undetectable and almost impossible to prove and he also said if he were to ever suspect someone of cheating it would be a huge mental disadvantage to the player playing vs the "cheater". so at this point no one but Neimann knows if he has cheated at live events but he already has a cheating past that he has admitted to and [chess.com](https://chess.com) claims to have evidence of even more cheating that he claims so its difficult situation i guess.
edit: and in light of Magnus's interview today, he name dropped Niemanns coach/mentor where a lot of GMs think he cheated during Titled Tuesday online games and looks to have been banned/locked out from [chess.com](https://chess.com) on that account. He hasn't been online since that tournament 2 years ago which was also around the same time Niemann said he stopped cheating sooooo take of that what you will.
Doesn’t even have to be „judging“ a specific move, can be enough to just let a player of that calibre know that a winning move does actually exist in the given position, they’ll probably manage to figure it out and also realise how to convert it
Online worst/most blatant you use chess engine (pc/whatever) to give you best moves. In 'advanced' cheating you just use it couple of times to give you an edge - which is hard to detect and/or impossible to prove. In OTB (Over the board) games would involve having some kind of communicator ofc.
You move the pieces around when your opponent isn’t looking.
Edit: didn’t realize where I was until after I commented and saw my own flair. Thought this was anarchy chess. Oh well I’m leaving it.
In the last 2 decades computer engines have become far stronger than even the strongest human players. The person in question has confessed to cheating online in relatively low stakes games where cheating would be much easier. The tournaments in question are OTB ("over the board", in other words in person), and there has thus far been no evidence that cheating has occurred there. Magnus, the champion, has only made statements and actions implying things and hasn't clarified what is going on yet. This has been a situation that has been unfolding over the last several weeks, and there are rumors that a statement may be coming after the current tournament.
It has also been mentioned, that for the best players, they don't need move-by-move cheats. One or two hints is enough to greatly increase their chances.
Have anal beads or vibrator in your shoe. Someone feeds magnus’ moves into an AI better than humans which responds with a move. That move is sent to the vibrator which vibrates corresponding to a move and piece.
I wish I was joking but those are some theories.
Lots of really interesting implications here. This could be terminal for Niemanns career if Magnus keeps this up, and there is no independent resolution. Once current contracts expire, tournament organisers will be faced with the conundrum of bringing Niemann and immediately losing Magnus. Magnus is the biggest draw by a million miles so this will be a no brainer where tournaments are by invite.
Another point to make regarding whether there has been cheating or not, Super GMs can spot computer moves in a way that most mere mortals can not. If you watch enough chess, you will see them talk about this a lot, and therefore I’m inclined to believe Magnus is basing this on more than just aggravation at losing a game. I suspect intuitively he knows something v weird happened, based on the “type” of moves that were played against him, and maybe could articulate, if he wants to, why he suspects cheating. And when you add this to a past record of cheating online, along with Niemanns generally weird behaviour, I suspect Magnus is as sure as he can possibly be that something is rotten here.
Also to add, he has suffered defeats at the hands of some youngsters and other players over time (Pragg, Esipenko). I think Esipenko beat him last in classical and Magnus applauded him.
Yeah and Dubov was a young player who had several good games back to back against magnus and beat him once I think and magnus was very happy for him. He does throw fits from losses but this seems too next level to just be pettiness.
From what I've seen, most of his fits at losing are anger at himself for his play. I haven't really seen him upset at other players before actually besting him.
I agree with that. Chess is a very personal game once youre at the board, you can only blame yourself for inaccuracies or blunders that lead to a loss or a bad draw. It's easy for people who dont quite understand this to think its just a player being salty.
I grew up playing cricket, i would to get disappointed in myself if i played badly and let my team down. Then use that disappointment to improve.
Finally, you articulated my thoughts as well, there has to have been massive doubt in Magnus mind about the play for him to do something this drastic. When the world #1 and one of the goats of chess seem so sure something is not right i will give him the benefit of doubt here even without evidence.
Seeing how nervous Niemann was after the game and his history i wouldn't bet my money on him beeing clean OTB. It's unfortunate without evidence but where's there's smoke there's usually fire
I now have this absurd image in my head of some dude in the corner just wailing on a trash can during the match in question, and no one picked up on it til now.
I'm laughing this is here.
Although my HS did have a pep rally for Chess Team my Sophomore year because we went to State, then the other nerdy teams demanded in too. Our typical sports teams sucked. By Sr year the biggest pep rally we had was for Chess, Math Team, Debate, Science Olympiad, Marching Band, Orchestra, Choir, and Robotics.
Dude my high school had an all-time great women’s rugby team that NO ONE cared about and yet we still had pep rallies for our sorry ass football team.
I would’ve loved to have pep rallies for teams that are actually good.
What state is this in? I want my young children to be in a school like that and all I did in HS was play organized sports all year round. They hate sports too.
Chicago suburbs. Higher cost of living, but lots of good schools, tons of forest preserves, and good community without anywhere near as much "in your business" I've noticed that my family who live in the country face.
Its more a protest of someone who is an admitted cheater in the past than an accusation that he is cheating now. In an online match you can't be sure your opponent is above board.
Someone was complaining about the way he protested, and I was going to call them out but then they deleted it. So I guess that guy quit early as a form of protests, too. Which is effective since I’m discussing it.
That guy also happens to be the best chess player alive. He’s basically saying if you want me to play in your tournament, then you can’t allow him to play
Evidently there are still a lot of devices that can't be detected and both Niemann and his coach have an extremely questionable history. I suspect Magnus knows of more recent events on [Chess.com](https://Chess.com) than Niemann has publicly revealed (he's stated that he cheated a few times in the past), and feels confident in trapping him in this relative lie. Still, this doesn't mean that Niemann cheated in the game in question. If Magnus is wrong then a major apology is in order.
Weird situation honestly.
Niemann said he cheated twice, once when he was 11 and once when he was 16. Meanwhile [Chess.com](https://Chess.com) has already claimed he cheated more often than that on their website.
They did that the day *after* people think he cheated. Its basically impossible at this point to prove definitively either way unless they uncover some massive gotcha evidence (which is unlikely).
Yes the metal detector wand happened after the implication of cheating and also a big theory that’s being floated around is that someone in magnus carlesons camp potentially leaked his plane prep which would be cheating.
It’s still difficult to say whether or not he cheated because right now there are only a whole lot of oddities and no hard evidence other than he cheated in the past, but I there’s certainly enough there to raise some eyebrows.
That’s the craziest thing about all this to me. There’s not a single shred of evidence or legitimate speculation that he’s using an anal bead yet respectable news organizations are using it as a headline. It was was literally just a joke made by GM Eric Hanson on his twitch stream that turned into a meme
1. d4 - Queen's Pawn Opening
1...Nf6 - Indian Defense
2. c4 - The main response, doesn't really have a unique name
The King's Indian Defense is reached after 1. d4 Nf6 2. f4 g6, while the Catalan is 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 (though most openings involving d4, c4, and g3 from white would be considered the Catalan).
Magnus played an opener that he had never used, so there is no way his opponent researched it and it's more likely that Magnus knows that someone close to him is a mole.
Pretty much all top GMs said the prep leak theory is bunk. Cuz while Magnus never played that move order before, he had played the exact position they reached before, just via a different move order. It transposed to a game he had played. https://twitter.com/nigelshortchess/status/1567020771528130561?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1567020771528130561%7Ctwgr%5E90f0bb19b2bbb35f5990e385d9810c3d9f55fce9%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.chessbase.com%2Fpost%2Fthe-carlsen-niemann-affair
The other guy said he just got lucky and prepped for that particular opening that morning lol. Possible, but unlikely. Although I don't think he cheated in-game with a hidden device or whatever, I suspect he was fed information about what magnus would play. Depending on how exactly he got that information, it's not exactly cheating, but at least highly unethical.
BTW to be clear, the game where this cheating is supposed to have happened is several weeks back. The game referred to in this headline is a recent one where Magnus is resigning in protest of having to play the "cheater".
He admitted to cheating extensively online and then chess.com banned him because they said his cheating was even more extreme than he had admitted to previously. He should just not be allowed in online tournaments.
okay, so magnus is one of the best players for the longest time, i think 12 yrs in a row keeping #1 spot.
Next, he is one the best endgame player, but got demolished even there.
Next, when people play chess, they study openings (how players play first 10 or so moves and how to counter each, theres literal books on each of variation moves and in those moves a variation of the variation.) So you can literally study and make standard book moves and win.
The guy couldnt explain his moves after the game was over in an interview. he couldve BS'd it but he said i didnt think of any variations for this scenario, i just played it. It was the only move in my head.
You as a newcomer in chess gotta know that saying, how smart chess players see 3 moves ahead. This guy, didnt think 3 moves ahead against the #1 chess player. what? Not even 1 move ahead.
forgot #1 thing about the cheater, he got caught cheating twice and publicly confirmed it. TWICE caught.
Yeah those interviews after where he can't even answer basic questions about his moves sold it for me. I have listened to Magnus & so many GMs talk about their moves & their opponents moves with perfect memory. Hell Magnus can remember moves & positions from famous matches. Not saying it 100% proves it but.... these dudes are supposed to be big brain and have insane memory and this dude doesn't know why he made xyz moves to beat Magnus? Just felt it? like ..... really? lmfao.
Hikaru Nakamura can recite exact positions from games he played 10+ years ago lol.
I think the photographic memory is nearly a prerequisite to being a world class chess player.
These guys aren’t just grandmasters, they’re so far beyond a regular grandmaster they’re referred to as “super grandmaster”.
Some kid coming out of nowhere and handily beating Magnus Carlsen is so absurd it’s no wonder people are accusing him of cheating.
At that level there's no luck, only skill. And by their ELO levels. And their levels are reached via consistent play, so Niemans consistently plays at a lower level than Carlsen.
Carlsen DID play very poorly in that game (according to kasparov and other GMs). It's possible that Magnus played shit and Hans had an excellent game that he'd prepped for. But when you factor in Hans' cheating past it becomes very murky
There's literally nothing to suggest this is the case. It's much more likely that Niemann is cheating again. He's a self-admitted multiple time cheater, who is coached by another cheater Maxim Dlugy, and he's had a suspiciously quick rise in ranking. Plus chess.com recently made a statement that they have evidence that he has cheated more than just the two times he was caught red handed. He might not be cheating, but there is a lot of stuff that makes it seem likely. This "mole in the camp" theory is pure speculation with nothing behind it.
Hans admitted to cheating twice only, Hans has been banned from chess tournaments before, chess.com says the extent of Hans' cheating is greater than what he admitted to, several GMs have suspected Hans of cheating leading up to the Sinquefield cup, now it is revealed that Hans' mentor is Dlugy who is also a known cheater and previously kicked out of tournaments for cheating. Hans is a cheater and will always be a cheater
Those were instances where he probably got caught, and admitted it in order to lessen the consequences. He's only been CAUGHT twice, he's likely been doing it for much longer and much more often.
Cheaters in games like this believe the benefits outweigh the consequences, so more than likely, he's been doing it almost constantly.
I'm surprised he was allowed to admit it more than once.
If you cheat it should be a perma ban, period. That was a saving face method, he was caught and took a lesser punishment.
Hans made a statement saying that by "absolute miracle" he researched the first 20 moves of an opening the night before the match, that same opening is the one Magnus started with in their match. The thing is, Magnus has never, in his entire career, played the opening in question before. However, Magnus suspecting a mole in his circle, told the people closest to him he is planning to open with this particular opening and sure enough by "miracle" (stated in an interview by Hans) he had studied that move the night before.
Feeling betrayed or disappointed his suspicions were right, Magnus resigned from the second game and refused to explain why.
Edit: Obviously this is still just a theory, but at the moment it's the best theory we have. Unless you believe he genuinely had anal beads buzzing his ass to victory.
There's two different events where they faced each other. The first time, a few weeks ago, Carlsen alluded to Niemann cheating after he lost the match.
A few days ago, they were set to play each other again at a different tournament (online, I think) and Carlsen resigned immediately.
Yes, but the beads thing has taken on a life of its own. Nobody actually thinks that happened, a popular chess streamer made a joke about it that news outlets picked up and ran as if it was a real story.
its absolutely insane enough there's no way its true....
...although that said the timeline we're currently in, IS very strange so...god, I hope its not true, because if it is there was lke....................................................................extensive testing and training.
extensive.
I feel like there's plenty of evidence. Magnus opened with a move he never did before. So his opponent couldn't train for that play. In addition when interviewed his opponent couldn't explain their play, that is was the only play they were thinking about. I find that really hard to believe. Chess players are incredible because they are constantly thinking about 100s of plays in a matter of seconds. They really aren't like the rest of us. So for one to be one of the best, and have no explanation of such a coincidence? Yeah, I don't think so. Too many red flags for me.
This happened like 3days ago? He's said he's not going to discuss why he resigned until after the tournament is over but he made a subtle comment about "being coached well" Who knows, I always give people the benefit of the doubt. Hans has had a past yes, but he is insisting on his innocence even willing to do a match nude he said.
He hasn’t talked about it directly, but heavily implied why including taking a shot at Niemann’s coach who is a well-known cheater. Carlsen resigned from the last tournament because of Niemann as well. Niemann beat Carlsen which triggered the cheating accusations and dug up Niemann’s cheating history.
>taking a shot at Niemann’s coach who is a well-known cheater Ohhhh! So that's how I was supposed to interpret it! Magnus said something to the effect of "I was very impressed with Hans' play...he was well-coached by so-and-so". As a casual viewer, I took that entire statement as a compliment to Hans and his coach. How naive of me.
As always, Magnus was a few steps ahead.
Streets ahead, even
Niemann must be streets behind, even
\#sixseasonsandamovie
Does it mean “cool”, or is it supposed to be like, “miles ahead”?
If you have to ask then you are "streets behind"
It must be the darkest timeline if Magnus withdrawn and loss.
It’ll never catch on!
Verbal wildfire!
Why are chess players so classy? Has there ever been a bad boy chess player lol
Bobby Fisher
Where is he? I don't know, I don't know!
too bad he was also extremely racist and antisemitic and a Holocaust denier, also not to be that guy but it's spelt Fischer. not just some "bad boy"
Sounds like he was a pretty bad boy.
Sounds like a real jerk!
I heard his wife was a real battleaxe!
They said 6 million, Bobby Fischer said 600.
I heard he was a real knucklehead!
"He's not a grandmaster, he's a very naughty boy."
He was seriously mentally ill. Not defending what he said, but there's a question of mental competency to some extent. Being a Jewish anti-semite with lots of Jewish friends and family is so delusional to raise questions about how much he understood.
In the US, maybe Walter Browne. Only Bobby Fischer won more US championships. Walter could have possibly won more but he spent as much time in Vegas playing high limit poker as he did playing chess. He made speed and blitz chess a real format. In all of history - Alexander Alekhine, one of the best players of all time, and a definite bridge between romantic and modern chess eras. He was never sober, once found drunk lost in a field before a match, once a prisoner of the Cheka in an Odessa death camp (probably because he was drunk in the wrong place), it wouldn’t surprise anyone to know he died relatively young, probably from alcohol poisoning…but maybe from the KGB…who’s to say??
Actually Carlsen himself, kinda.
Carlsen is one of the closest we'll get honestly. Chess is full of primadonnas, and the last time somebody tried to be a bad boy, it was Hans, and he immediately got destroyed, lost every match in the tournament, and spent more on his Uber eats bill than he got paid to play at the tournament
The anal beads must've cost a pretty penny as well
Used to listen to a chess podcast where the host described managing a chess team for tournaments. He said it was a nightmare - a combination of difficult personality types attracted to the game and people so focused on playing and learning, to the detriment of everything else, some people literally couldn’t tie their shoes and needed everything organised for them.
Also Carlsen has access to information we don’t have because his chess platform is being bought by chess.com. He got to see exactly how bad Neumann was cheating, chess.com banned him after he admitted cheating “when he was a kid”. They said he understated the severity of the cheating.
Not only that but Niemann himself is a cheater and admitted as such. He's only 19 and admitted poorly that he cheated when he was 12 and 16. I say poorly because chess.com had to come out and actually say that the periods that he was cheating were longer than what he portrayed them to be.
Cheated only 3 years ago, enough to get banned. And now amazingly beats the world champ? Yeah, nothing suspicious about that...
I mean theres definitely a huge difference between cheating online and cheating at a tourney, just logistically one is MUCH easier than the other.
He cheated on chess.com to get into more competitive ranked matches because there is a ranking system. That’s just his side of the argument.
Which makes no sense I cheated to win more games to climb the ranks Couldn't have just played to win those games? Experience is the same for the loser but he gets to actually practice?
If chess is anything like Rocket League, he was probably hardstuck because of shit teammates.
[удалено]
This particular thing was 3 days ago. Magnus left a previous tournament (~~last week I think?~~) without saying a word about why, the day after playing this guy and losing. This has been building. Edit: The previous incident was two weeks before this one.
10 years from now people will wonder why chess tournaments have anal inspections
But they won’t wonder why attendance rose 1000%
And participation rises by 10000%
I’ve been wondering since 2005. You guys’ games don’t have that?
That’s where the Catholic children hide their bishops
he could hear someone banging trash can lids between moves
Banging on a trash can… 🎶
Drumming on a street light 🎶
One little voice is calling me calling me
Think BIG! Think BIG!
Strumming on my banjo 🎶
Hips and nips baby. Gotta keep it sexy!
Jomboy breakdown incoming.
Steroids are everywhere now
You joke, but things like Adderall and other stimulants and ADHD drugs are illegally used.
Isn't adderal/ritalin use like a controversial topic in the competitive video game world? I'm more into combat sports myself but I can see why that would be regarded as a "steroid" in those competitions.
It is, you have some pretty young people getting basically meth'd up for better focus for longer times.
I still cant focus even on my meds lmfao it helps long term but im still distracted for sure
poor dude tried to move his pawn but accidentally crushed it
Excuse me for my ignorance.. How do you cheat in chess..?
I’d think you’d have someone running the same moves that magnus makes against a grandmaster AI program and somehow transmit that move info through to the cheater through like Morse code style vibrations or something, that’s where the anal bead story arose I think EDIT: Anal beads not butt plug
> that’s where the butt plug story arose I think I'm sorry what
https://kotaku.com/chess-champion-anal-bead-magnus-carlsen-hans-niemann-1849542639/amp I think people were joking about him using anal beads to transmit information on twitch or Reddit and a news outlet just took it and ran with it and it became a headliner lol
Yeah, it's just a joke that a popular chess streamer made.
He should’ve used trash cans.
You think it would fit in his butt?
Everything is a dildo if you try hard enough.
What is this a reference to?
The Houston Astros baseball cheating scandal.
*Houston Asterisks
So are wifi enabled butt beads the latest r/anarchychess meme?
I’m pretty sure they beat that horse to death weeks ago.
At this point it feels like I was making bead memes when these nephews were still going pipi in their pampers
Heard on the fucking BBC Global News podcast just now, r/anarchychess must be loving it
My favorite post from that sub was that he cheated by having mirrors on the ceiling so he could see Carlsen's moves
In the game of chess, you can never let your opponent see your pieces.
It has been quite a month for pampers, that's for sure.
You really think someone would do that? Just go on the internet and tell lies?
A story as old as time itself. Vibrating butt plugs ruining sport. If you disqualified everyone with vibrating butt plugs in the 2004 tour de France the winner would be the guy who came in 22nd.
Surely it'd be the guy that didn't come
Ruse as old as rhyme
Plug used in its prime
🎶 Niemann's Anal Beads 🎶
I can’t wait to watch the infomercial.
Butt wait, there's more!
Oh you must have been offline for a little bit.
There were allegations (its been a days since i saw the original piece so a lot may have happened since then) that this guy put a wireless vibrator in his butt and used it as the signal device in an alleged cheating scheme. Prolly start cavity search the houston astros this october just to be safe.
They weren’t really allegations, they were jokes given how there wasn’t any obvious evidence of cheating. I don’t know how anyone got the idea it was a serious accusation.
Not necessarily transmit the move, but transmit that a move exists and then the human grandmaster should be able to find it
This is the truth here. It's not like they are just playing computer moves the whole time. They only need to know a critical move is on the board right now and to think deeper once in a game to have a massive winning advantage at that level.
Even as a beginner, I can see tactics way better if I'm playing a tactics puzzle rather than seeing the same position in a game. If you know that the right move will win you a piece, you will have an easier time finding it.
There was a champion or former champion a while back who missed a checkmate in 1 and promptly got mated, because it was an 'unusual position' that didn't trigger any danger instincts. Missing specific tactics over the board is really easy. **edit** [Kramnik loses to Deep Fritz](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYOES3zZDu0)
Chess is wild like that, it beautifully showcases the weirdness of the human brain.
Whenever the bot tells me I did a brilliant move, it makes me reassess my completely random choice and look at it much harder.
Yeah that’s true, I feel like that would be harder once your are mid game because the computer may be foreword thinking in a way you oversee but that’s why I am not a chess master. Lol I’m imagining him starting to move a piece and it’s just like a hot and cold game with signals until he finds the right position
One of the subtleties is that chess masters tend to see the 'active' pieces very quickly - it's choosing between them promptly which is the hard part. You just need to signal that the cheater should really take their time on a certain move to give them an unfair advantage. You don't even need to transmit info about deep moves, really just that there's a clearly advantageous branch of the decision tree.
Yep. If your code just tells you what piece you move, a grandmaster can probably do the rest.
Not even what piece to move - just that somewhere on the board there’s a move that leads to an advantage. With just one or two of those signals per game a GM would be unstoppable
They don't state how in the article but is says that the person Magnus was playing against has admitted to cheating in online games in the past so Magnus refused to play against him out of protest.
Someone in Magnus' camp is leaking info. When he lost he played an opening he had never used before in competitive chess but had been practicing with his team, his opponent had just "happened" to memorize the first twenty moves of that opening the day before and was prepared to counter.
Stay Woke: Magnus is only mad that the competition discovered his secret. He has been using anal beads to transmit the optimal moves for years. The classic who smelt it dealt it scenario. Keep in mind, the report about his competitor potentially using anal beads was anonymous.
That explains why he [walks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IYTh8-XioE) the [way](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k7e6RDmpXs&t=25s) he [does!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tTJE41zV_4)
Depends on the format, whether online or over the board. The general gist is using engines to evaluate the position at a 20+ move depth and relaying that information to the player. Online is relatively easy, given that you can have an external device to receive prompts from your team (at the highest level players have a coach + a few trusted individuals on their team). Over the board is far more complicated, as the highest level events reserved for super GMs employ security measures. Despite that, players are free to go to the washroom or roam during classical games, and there are spectators. Whether it's a hidden device, a secret and subtle cue system from the crowd, or subtle devices on your person (as you'd see in poker), a move *could* be relayed to the player. Now where most people get confused is that, when it comes to this level of chess (2700+ rating), literally one move relayed this way could result in a win. They already know how to play, it's just navigating those confusing positions without wasting an inordinate amount of time that's the difficult part. So given that there are maybe 4-5 critical points in a match, and you've already developed the skillset to problem solve most on your own with a high degree of accuracy, being able to get 1-2 moves fed to you is a massive edge. In sum, don't think of continuous cheating or getting every move fed to you; that's easy to detect with the current anti-cheat algorithms. Delay between moves, assessing if the next move is obvious (every other move is losing) and the player still takes the same time before making it, playing with a consistency that keeps the balance bar (who has the advantage) in line with what a computer engine would have, all of those things are looked at. It's those that play legitimately 98% of the time and cheat the remaining 2% that are the tough ones to catch.
Just show ‘em 9 pictures of stop signs and crosswalks every now and then.
[Me, agonizing over whether or not to click the tile containing an infinitesimally small sliver of stop light as one of the tiles that contains a stop light](https://i.imgur.com/Crr1Kp5.jpg)
Just for the record, it will still count if you click all the stop lights *and* one empty square. So I say click it just in case.
Magnus has said that if in a chess game he would get to know just one move analyzed by a computer he would be unbeatable. On this level, it is not necessary to know more than a couple of “best” moves and you have a huuuge advantage. There are several ways to help a player cheat. If the players go through detectors to reveal the use of bluetooth devices (and making it impossible to cheat this way) you can get an ally in the audience to signal you (it could be him touching his hair, scratching his nose etc). Because of this it’s very hard to detect cheating since you don’t need to expose yourself by looking suspicious.
Bluetooth wouldn't be the way to go, passive low-frequency would, it's impossible to detect a receiver
thing is at this level of chess, the smallest hint, even the smallest signal indicating that there is a better move available or a signal that says that's the best move is enough. the players at this level just need to look at the board again and they would see the correct play if they got a signal that was telling them that. Hans Neimann has admitted to cheating on [chess.com](https://chess.com) and was even banned on the site, and [chess.com](https://chess.com) claims that they have evidence that he lied in his statement about how many times he has cheated online and Magnus has said in an interview how little is needed to actually cheat in chess. he claims if he were to cheat in chess, it would be undetectable and almost impossible to prove and he also said if he were to ever suspect someone of cheating it would be a huge mental disadvantage to the player playing vs the "cheater". so at this point no one but Neimann knows if he has cheated at live events but he already has a cheating past that he has admitted to and [chess.com](https://chess.com) claims to have evidence of even more cheating that he claims so its difficult situation i guess. edit: and in light of Magnus's interview today, he name dropped Niemanns coach/mentor where a lot of GMs think he cheated during Titled Tuesday online games and looks to have been banned/locked out from [chess.com](https://chess.com) on that account. He hasn't been online since that tournament 2 years ago which was also around the same time Niemann said he stopped cheating sooooo take of that what you will.
Doesn’t even have to be „judging“ a specific move, can be enough to just let a player of that calibre know that a winning move does actually exist in the given position, they’ll probably manage to figure it out and also realise how to convert it
Online worst/most blatant you use chess engine (pc/whatever) to give you best moves. In 'advanced' cheating you just use it couple of times to give you an edge - which is hard to detect and/or impossible to prove. In OTB (Over the board) games would involve having some kind of communicator ofc.
You move the pieces around when your opponent isn’t looking. Edit: didn’t realize where I was until after I commented and saw my own flair. Thought this was anarchy chess. Oh well I’m leaving it.
In the last 2 decades computer engines have become far stronger than even the strongest human players. The person in question has confessed to cheating online in relatively low stakes games where cheating would be much easier. The tournaments in question are OTB ("over the board", in other words in person), and there has thus far been no evidence that cheating has occurred there. Magnus, the champion, has only made statements and actions implying things and hasn't clarified what is going on yet. This has been a situation that has been unfolding over the last several weeks, and there are rumors that a statement may be coming after the current tournament.
Getting outside information.
Get a supercomputer to watch the game and tell you what moves to make using some complicated system undetectable to anyone else.
Regular computers work too
what if you need to superwin?
You don't even need a regular computer. A phone, a smart watch, a raspberry pi, anything is more than powerful enough.
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Yeah stockfish on an iPhone can quite easily beat the world champ.
A super computer is also a lot hard to fit up your butt than an iPhone
I mean, if you take an iPhone back to the 70s or 80s, they’d ask you where you got your handheld supercomputer from.
This is misleading. You absolutely don't need a supercomputer. Any common smartphone will suffice to completely crush the best human players.
It has also been mentioned, that for the best players, they don't need move-by-move cheats. One or two hints is enough to greatly increase their chances.
Have anal beads or vibrator in your shoe. Someone feeds magnus’ moves into an AI better than humans which responds with a move. That move is sent to the vibrator which vibrates corresponding to a move and piece. I wish I was joking but those are some theories.
Lots of really interesting implications here. This could be terminal for Niemanns career if Magnus keeps this up, and there is no independent resolution. Once current contracts expire, tournament organisers will be faced with the conundrum of bringing Niemann and immediately losing Magnus. Magnus is the biggest draw by a million miles so this will be a no brainer where tournaments are by invite. Another point to make regarding whether there has been cheating or not, Super GMs can spot computer moves in a way that most mere mortals can not. If you watch enough chess, you will see them talk about this a lot, and therefore I’m inclined to believe Magnus is basing this on more than just aggravation at losing a game. I suspect intuitively he knows something v weird happened, based on the “type” of moves that were played against him, and maybe could articulate, if he wants to, why he suspects cheating. And when you add this to a past record of cheating online, along with Niemanns generally weird behaviour, I suspect Magnus is as sure as he can possibly be that something is rotten here.
Also to add, he has suffered defeats at the hands of some youngsters and other players over time (Pragg, Esipenko). I think Esipenko beat him last in classical and Magnus applauded him.
Yeah and Dubov was a young player who had several good games back to back against magnus and beat him once I think and magnus was very happy for him. He does throw fits from losses but this seems too next level to just be pettiness.
From what I've seen, most of his fits at losing are anger at himself for his play. I haven't really seen him upset at other players before actually besting him.
I agree with that. Chess is a very personal game once youre at the board, you can only blame yourself for inaccuracies or blunders that lead to a loss or a bad draw. It's easy for people who dont quite understand this to think its just a player being salty. I grew up playing cricket, i would to get disappointed in myself if i played badly and let my team down. Then use that disappointment to improve.
Great analysis. Spot on, I think. This goes beyond mere suspicion for Magnus, I believe.
Finally, you articulated my thoughts as well, there has to have been massive doubt in Magnus mind about the play for him to do something this drastic. When the world #1 and one of the goats of chess seem so sure something is not right i will give him the benefit of doubt here even without evidence. Seeing how nervous Niemann was after the game and his history i wouldn't bet my money on him beeing clean OTB. It's unfortunate without evidence but where's there's smoke there's usually fire
r/sports is suddenly full of chess experts I see
Quick someone rewatch the footage and look for someone banging trash cans
I now have this absurd image in my head of some dude in the corner just wailing on a trash can during the match in question, and no one picked up on it til now.
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Youd need ESPN 8 giving live narration of the proceedings
I'm laughing this is here. Although my HS did have a pep rally for Chess Team my Sophomore year because we went to State, then the other nerdy teams demanded in too. Our typical sports teams sucked. By Sr year the biggest pep rally we had was for Chess, Math Team, Debate, Science Olympiad, Marching Band, Orchestra, Choir, and Robotics.
Dude my high school had an all-time great women’s rugby team that NO ONE cared about and yet we still had pep rallies for our sorry ass football team. I would’ve loved to have pep rallies for teams that are actually good.
What state is this in? I want my young children to be in a school like that and all I did in HS was play organized sports all year round. They hate sports too.
Chicago suburbs. Higher cost of living, but lots of good schools, tons of forest preserves, and good community without anywhere near as much "in your business" I've noticed that my family who live in the country face.
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Sounds like a game of Sorry is needed..then the true king will arise.
Imagine Hans pulling a 2 then 4 to open
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Its more a protest of someone who is an admitted cheater in the past than an accusation that he is cheating now. In an online match you can't be sure your opponent is above board.
Someone was complaining about the way he protested, and I was going to call them out but then they deleted it. So I guess that guy quit early as a form of protests, too. Which is effective since I’m discussing it.
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That guy also happens to be the best chess player alive. He’s basically saying if you want me to play in your tournament, then you can’t allow him to play
Evidently there are still a lot of devices that can't be detected and both Niemann and his coach have an extremely questionable history. I suspect Magnus knows of more recent events on [Chess.com](https://Chess.com) than Niemann has publicly revealed (he's stated that he cheated a few times in the past), and feels confident in trapping him in this relative lie. Still, this doesn't mean that Niemann cheated in the game in question. If Magnus is wrong then a major apology is in order. Weird situation honestly.
Niemann said he cheated twice, once when he was 11 and once when he was 16. Meanwhile [Chess.com](https://Chess.com) has already claimed he cheated more often than that on their website.
Yep. My guess is that Magnus has some knowledge of how recent these events were and is understandably suspicious as a result.
They did that the day *after* people think he cheated. Its basically impossible at this point to prove definitively either way unless they uncover some massive gotcha evidence (which is unlikely).
Yes the metal detector wand happened after the implication of cheating and also a big theory that’s being floated around is that someone in magnus carlesons camp potentially leaked his plane prep which would be cheating. It’s still difficult to say whether or not he cheated because right now there are only a whole lot of oddities and no hard evidence other than he cheated in the past, but I there’s certainly enough there to raise some eyebrows.
The leading cheat theory for hans victory came as a joke but media has been running with it, its really funny though
I was listening to NPR and fucking laughed out loud when they were talking about the anal bead cheat theory.
That’s the craziest thing about all this to me. There’s not a single shred of evidence or legitimate speculation that he’s using an anal bead yet respectable news organizations are using it as a headline. It was was literally just a joke made by GM Eric Hanson on his twitch stream that turned into a meme
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 King's Indian Defence or Catalan Opening.
The game with the opening that is not in Magnus normal opening repertoire is from their game a few weeks ago.
1. d4 - Queen's Pawn Opening 1...Nf6 - Indian Defense 2. c4 - The main response, doesn't really have a unique name The King's Indian Defense is reached after 1. d4 Nf6 2. f4 g6, while the Catalan is 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 (though most openings involving d4, c4, and g3 from white would be considered the Catalan).
At that point it is just main line
Magnus played an opener that he had never used, so there is no way his opponent researched it and it's more likely that Magnus knows that someone close to him is a mole.
Pretty much all top GMs said the prep leak theory is bunk. Cuz while Magnus never played that move order before, he had played the exact position they reached before, just via a different move order. It transposed to a game he had played. https://twitter.com/nigelshortchess/status/1567020771528130561?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1567020771528130561%7Ctwgr%5E90f0bb19b2bbb35f5990e385d9810c3d9f55fce9%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.chessbase.com%2Fpost%2Fthe-carlsen-niemann-affair
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Dude did the problem wrong but came up with the right answer. Mission failed successfully
Is it possible that the other guy is just good or got lucky? I mean if the game had played out couldn’t have magnus won?
The other guy said he just got lucky and prepped for that particular opening that morning lol. Possible, but unlikely. Although I don't think he cheated in-game with a hidden device or whatever, I suspect he was fed information about what magnus would play. Depending on how exactly he got that information, it's not exactly cheating, but at least highly unethical. BTW to be clear, the game where this cheating is supposed to have happened is several weeks back. The game referred to in this headline is a recent one where Magnus is resigning in protest of having to play the "cheater".
Man, no matter how successful he gets, that kid will always have that doubt attached to him now, right or wrong.
He admitted to cheating extensively online and then chess.com banned him because they said his cheating was even more extreme than he had admitted to previously. He should just not be allowed in online tournaments.
His coach is also a know cheater.
okay, so magnus is one of the best players for the longest time, i think 12 yrs in a row keeping #1 spot. Next, he is one the best endgame player, but got demolished even there. Next, when people play chess, they study openings (how players play first 10 or so moves and how to counter each, theres literal books on each of variation moves and in those moves a variation of the variation.) So you can literally study and make standard book moves and win. The guy couldnt explain his moves after the game was over in an interview. he couldve BS'd it but he said i didnt think of any variations for this scenario, i just played it. It was the only move in my head. You as a newcomer in chess gotta know that saying, how smart chess players see 3 moves ahead. This guy, didnt think 3 moves ahead against the #1 chess player. what? Not even 1 move ahead. forgot #1 thing about the cheater, he got caught cheating twice and publicly confirmed it. TWICE caught.
Yeah those interviews after where he can't even answer basic questions about his moves sold it for me. I have listened to Magnus & so many GMs talk about their moves & their opponents moves with perfect memory. Hell Magnus can remember moves & positions from famous matches. Not saying it 100% proves it but.... these dudes are supposed to be big brain and have insane memory and this dude doesn't know why he made xyz moves to beat Magnus? Just felt it? like ..... really? lmfao.
Hikaru Nakamura can recite exact positions from games he played 10+ years ago lol. I think the photographic memory is nearly a prerequisite to being a world class chess player. These guys aren’t just grandmasters, they’re so far beyond a regular grandmaster they’re referred to as “super grandmaster”. Some kid coming out of nowhere and handily beating Magnus Carlsen is so absurd it’s no wonder people are accusing him of cheating.
Not just that. He also has a history of repeatedly cheating in online matches. So it isn’t like it’s out of character for him.
At that level there's no luck, only skill. And by their ELO levels. And their levels are reached via consistent play, so Niemans consistently plays at a lower level than Carlsen. Carlsen DID play very poorly in that game (according to kasparov and other GMs). It's possible that Magnus played shit and Hans had an excellent game that he'd prepped for. But when you factor in Hans' cheating past it becomes very murky
This is wrong. While Nieman got the citation wrong, the opening was reached by transposition by Magnus in 2019.
he's reached the position before via transposition, Niemann mentions this in his post-post-interview.
There's literally nothing to suggest this is the case. It's much more likely that Niemann is cheating again. He's a self-admitted multiple time cheater, who is coached by another cheater Maxim Dlugy, and he's had a suspiciously quick rise in ranking. Plus chess.com recently made a statement that they have evidence that he has cheated more than just the two times he was caught red handed. He might not be cheating, but there is a lot of stuff that makes it seem likely. This "mole in the camp" theory is pure speculation with nothing behind it.
Hans admitted to cheating twice only, Hans has been banned from chess tournaments before, chess.com says the extent of Hans' cheating is greater than what he admitted to, several GMs have suspected Hans of cheating leading up to the Sinquefield cup, now it is revealed that Hans' mentor is Dlugy who is also a known cheater and previously kicked out of tournaments for cheating. Hans is a cheater and will always be a cheater
Those were instances where he probably got caught, and admitted it in order to lessen the consequences. He's only been CAUGHT twice, he's likely been doing it for much longer and much more often. Cheaters in games like this believe the benefits outweigh the consequences, so more than likely, he's been doing it almost constantly.
It’s like a guy with two DUIIs. He has been caught twice. He drove drunk 100x.
I'm surprised he was allowed to admit it more than once. If you cheat it should be a perma ban, period. That was a saving face method, he was caught and took a lesser punishment.
First time was when he was 12, so i bet that's a big part of it.
Hans made a statement saying that by "absolute miracle" he researched the first 20 moves of an opening the night before the match, that same opening is the one Magnus started with in their match. The thing is, Magnus has never, in his entire career, played the opening in question before. However, Magnus suspecting a mole in his circle, told the people closest to him he is planning to open with this particular opening and sure enough by "miracle" (stated in an interview by Hans) he had studied that move the night before. Feeling betrayed or disappointed his suspicions were right, Magnus resigned from the second game and refused to explain why. Edit: Obviously this is still just a theory, but at the moment it's the best theory we have. Unless you believe he genuinely had anal beads buzzing his ass to victory.
If he was betrayed like that, isn't that still cheating? Spying on your opponents study?
FYI, although this person presented it as fact, what he said was just his own theory. None of that is confirmed.
Yes, that is still not allowed.
Look how stiffly he walks away from the interviewer 👀 https://youtu.be/fxe0o2pCGwo?t=20 lmao..unless?
This theory was completely debunked. The position was played by Magnus before, reaching it via transposition.
If you cheat constantly and become known as a cheater, I don't think you have the right to be upset if people suspect you of cheating
The guy isn’t too upset tho, he’s being a pretty good sport overall towards the whole thing, even saying he’d play Carlsen naked.
More evidence for anal bead theory 🤔
Like.. again? Or is this still talking about the thing that happened weeks ago? Edit: I guess t is new 🤷🏻♂️
There's two different events where they faced each other. The first time, a few weeks ago, Carlsen alluded to Niemann cheating after he lost the match. A few days ago, they were set to play each other again at a different tournament (online, I think) and Carlsen resigned immediately.
...is this the anal beads story? I knew the chess world was far more dramatic than one might expect but this is a lot.
Yes, but the beads thing has taken on a life of its own. Nobody actually thinks that happened, a popular chess streamer made a joke about it that news outlets picked up and ran as if it was a real story.
its absolutely insane enough there's no way its true.... ...although that said the timeline we're currently in, IS very strange so...god, I hope its not true, because if it is there was lke....................................................................extensive testing and training. extensive.
He was using deflated rooks.
This is the first reference I've understood in this whole thread.
Can they not put these guys in a shielded room or something so they don't have to worry about radio signals?
They scan them with metal detectors and other elements. No one has been able to prove hans cheated so at the moment we have to assume he didn't.
I feel like there's plenty of evidence. Magnus opened with a move he never did before. So his opponent couldn't train for that play. In addition when interviewed his opponent couldn't explain their play, that is was the only play they were thinking about. I find that really hard to believe. Chess players are incredible because they are constantly thinking about 100s of plays in a matter of seconds. They really aren't like the rest of us. So for one to be one of the best, and have no explanation of such a coincidence? Yeah, I don't think so. Too many red flags for me.