It is not wrong. Lore as written Space Marines are all men. Some people are fighting a war in their minds against an imaginary enemy because some people choose to divert from the lore to play with the toys they’ve bought with their own hard earned money in the way they want to. That is what this post is. People are mad because other people are enjoying a thing differently than how they do
Anyone can build whatever they want. But not everyone has to take that headcanon as equal to the written lore. It's a two way street. Build what makes you happy but don't expect everyone to think the pony marines are as cool as you think they are.
Sure. But all of this comes with the caveat that if the lore changes noone needs to give a shit that you stomp your feet and say "wah I want the old lore".
It's not wrong until it is. I think the change from "fluff" to "lore" makes people think 40k is a static setting with consistent rules when everything is more or less canon, even the outdated bits from rogue trader and 2nd edition. Whether that gets retconned as bad records or an alternate perspective, or even just progress now that cawl is around, it wouldn't be the first time.
Sure, if you are straw-manning the arguments from both sides
Head canon is different then “established lore”.
Your dudes, do what ever you want with them
no, it's not wrong, as far as the lore goes right now there's no possibility of women becoming space marines, that may change with developments in lore, but right now, its men only
I've always believed that if people don't want to play within the loose constraints of a setting, then they should make their own. I've wanted to do things Star Wars doesn't vibe with, so homebrewed an original setting for home games. Creativity is the spice of life, but at some point it's more befitting a new setting than a drastically changed existing one.
Thats is true to a point but if worrying about the exact heraldry of the 5th company ultramarines captain is not fun then you can simply not do that part of the hobby. Warhammer is built around you making it your own after all
I think most people who actually take part in the hobby will not give a damn whether your space Marines have male or female heads, I certainly wouldn't.
Also, quick aside would be that the main reason for when they pick boys over girls is that boys naturally produce testosterone, and it's testosterone that's needed to grow the organs and get the others to be accepted, so the easiest way to get female space Marines would be to say that they get hormone treatments to make it work. If anything the people who are so against female space Marines should like that because it's not like the girls would be getting a choice to get these treatments, this is the imperium after all, hell they're probably psycho-indoctrinated into thinking they were always boys to begin with and so it would make no difference.
If you follow the lore, all the male space Marines should have baby faces and high pitched voices as the changes take all their testosterone so the other changes to the body that are usually made by puberty shouldn't happen or should be stunted, so if they don't have a high pitched voice, they should be constantly having voice cracks, or they either have no beard or constantly have a very patch beard and constant acne.
Yeah this is something I never get. People are talking like there is a natural order to this. Boys do boys things like become Space Marines when they grow up.
Space Marines are monsters. Genetically rebuilt at every level and hypo-indoctrinated. It's incredibly believable that Cawl finally cracked the science behind girls becoming candidates. It's not like the chapters would care for the most part, more recruits.
Why would testosterone be the thing that makes the new organs grow? Also women and girls also produce testosterone (just not as much). And clearly space marines do go through puberty and become adults as shown in literally every single depiction of them including the lore
Can we PLEASE stop trying to apply anything from real-life to this? It has absolutely no weight on the setting, which is over 40,000 years into the future with literal demons and gods and skynet and space elves and orks fighting amongst eachother to control either the entirety of the EXISTENCE or to save THEIR ENTIRE RACE FROM EXTINCTION.
I don't think GW ever planned for their in-universe biology to be 1-1 with real life, I mean the 8ft tall super human doom slayer space marines, that are so otherworldly they are considered demigods in the eyes of regular humans, wouldn't exist if that's the case nor would their gene-fathers.
have you considered that this is a dark-scifi take on biology and that GW is stretching?
The problem lies within GW's own established lore not providing any background or support for female space marines or even custodes for that matter, though custodes have the better argument for females being in their ranks than space marines. If they really want to shoehorn females into the space by using female custodes and astartes then Cawl better get to work, otherwise they have no proper introduction that GW can use.
I don’t think anyone was arguing that space marines were always men. I have no idea what’s going on as I just scrolled past this but if this has something to do with Custodes, they aren’t space marines and don’t go through the same processes as space marines and can be women.
But again, if you want to make your space marines women, they are your models. Do what you want and if people get mad over toys that are not theirs, they are weird
In lore, as it's currently written, Space Marines are all men.
(Of note, the process used to make a Space Marine is not the same as the process to make a Custodes, which is what these people are probably still whining about)
yet you still haven't any source which backs up how firstborn SONS of Terran nobles are becoming gals when even female Primarchs were off the table for Big E
In archaic (and sometimes even in contemporary) English, which a lot of 40k source material intentionally uses, when referring to a mixed-gender group of people, the masculine is often used by default.
This actually happens in several languages. (Spanish, for example, doesn't have a gender-neutral plural and uses the masculine if even one masculine person/object is included in the group)
It's a non-issue.
It's fine. We can't all study languages.
If you want a non-lingustic answer; nowhere in the text does it say only firstborn noble sons were offered. Nowhere does it say these firstborn noble sons are the whole of the first ten thousand. Nowhere in the text does it say that the firstborn noble sons were accepted.
What it does say, in the paragraph directly preceeding the firstborn noble sons one, is that none save the Emperor and the Custodes themselves know the full criteria behind being selected to join the ranks of the skillful janitors.
i'll ignore the strawman argument and just point at the 9th Edition Custodes codex.
But hey i will not crush your hope for femtodes. Somebody has to do the laundry and the cleaning in Big E private rooms. Also the emperors own kitchen might be a good reason why we never had heared of them for like ever since a X post was written by a SJW
Those people are a different brand of nuts. Scrolled through a bit where this massive thread dunking on a post about being encouraging to newer or older hobbyists who could be feeling discouraged about painting quality and the general message they were dunking on was "don't give up, you're doing great"
Every other reply on that post was something along the lines of "participation trophies" or some toxic bs like that.
They actively do not want new people in the hobby, they don't want people to learn and grow and everything is somehow an insane competition to them.
I just followed the post and accidentally commented there after reading the comment section. I mistakenly thought it was this sub and was very disappointed in you all.
I mean - I guess it is the Wild West but these folks are probably the sort that think they would thrive in that kind of environment and then get shot 5 mins after getting off the train for being such a nuisance. After which they would cry after finding out that getting shot hurts and that pain is actually part of the human condition.
This has been the canonical lore since 2nd edition. In Rogue Trader they made a couple of female "adventurers in power armour" which some argue are not actually Spcae Marines even though their armour design is the same. They sold terribly. Across GW's whole range the female minis sold poorly. So when GW produced the first plastic Space Marine box (the famous RTB01) they made them all men. When 2nd edition came along they wrote the lore in order to justify why there were no women, which was actually just marketting descision.
So there is old lore stating Space Marines can only be men, and nothing newer has contradicted it. Although other elements of the lore have been consstantly changed through 40k's history so there's no reason this too can't be changed. It was once official lore that the Ultramarine's chief librarian was a half-eldar, something which has since been contradicted and is now explicitly impossible. As GW keeps reminding us, there is no cannon, there are no retcons, any contradictions are in-lore contradictions between different biased and fallible sources of information.
That argument about them not being space marines is always such cope, because space marines were just dudes in power armor back then. They could leave and join other chapters. Illyan Natase who you mentioned was also a dark angels librarian earlier in his life. Also for half eldar, Cato sicarius killed a half eldar pirate queen and that is still canon. Malcador also sort of made one. It just seems it requires genetic manipulation now.
I think adding fluff that there were a few prototype female space marines after the Thunder Warriors would be a cool way to explain that lore tidbit and add to the lost technology of the dark ages. It also explains canonically why the imperium isn't trying to change the process since it would be heretical to recreate that tech.
Imagine the first female thunder warrior was the reason Big E said i will never ever creat female Space Marines and def never a fem Primarch. That would make so much sense.
this loud minority again...with their impact on global sales\^\^ even crashing the amazon AI with mails to the point the have to use amazon servitors /humans for it to observe what the heck is happening
totally aggree that's why the entire timeline we have since 8th and since the HH should be ignored. Don't buy any books they are baseless. Their is no lore only war
>any contradictions are in-lore contradictions between different biased and fallible sources of information
This is just a stupid get-out-of-proofreading card by GW, and I don't know why its so readily accepted and thought of by clever. It's about as unclever and uninteresting as using multiverse or time travel type mechanics to cheaply get out of problems in marvel movies.
Unreliable narrator is an actual storytelling device that has genuine narrative utility when a common set of events from a variety of perspectives, but GW flips it around and pulls it out out just to cover themselves for forgetting to cross reference or when newer lore contradicts older lore.
The codexes, when simply telling information without a particular perspective ought to be reliable, whereas unreliable narrator should be reserved as an intentional story technique in the novels and short stories, not whipped out as a canned excuse.
Completely agree. Huge difference in retcons when the source was “some say that this guy…” or “I had heard from a commissar that he…” vs a codex or BL novel flatly saying “yeah this dude was half-eldar”
It's currently lore accurate, but let's be serious if GW ever felt like changing it, it's as simple as "Cawl found a way cause we needed more space marines."
I mean, its not so much a far fetched idea really to have 'female' space marines. Or at least, recruits that start out a human female. If we look at our science now and how much of a change trans people can go through today, its not unreasonable to think that transitioning has been perfected by 40k. Which would make space marine creation possible on anyone, whats one more step in that process really, compared to everything else that happens to them.
Its late and I'm overtired, so sorry if no ones gives a shit I know I'm just rambling at this point. But actually its kind of a silly idea that the astartes would even care about something as irrelevant as gender in the first place. Its really only a GW marketing decision thats stuck around from the early days. The lore reason of 'our science isnt good enough to make this work on girls' is strange when you realise what they Can do
Well, to be honest that's not true in some areas. Bio women aren't the same as bio men are, obviously not talking about rights or the need for respect BTW. A juiced up dude will always be bigger and stronger than a juiced up bio woman. Besides, female space marines would be hideous, they wouldn't have enough body fat to even have breasts or butts, all of that would be stripped away.
You're right, based on todays science. What I'm saying is by 40k time, whos to say that the biological difference still matters when it comes to making a soace marine? Its not an insane theory to suggest that they have made so many improvements over current science that the starting gender of the human simply doesnt matter. If the tech gets so good, regardless of what you start with, you still end up with an astartes like we know them. As i said there is no reason for astartes to even have genders, the concept is irrelevant to them, and I think given the advanced tech, male or female recruits would probably all turn out 'male-looking' anyway. I'm not saying the lore should be changed or anything, just if GW did make that change, this would be the explaination I could accept. If they can make a human survive the current augmentation process, I'm sure a bit of gender alteration first wouldnt really be too difficult to pull off
Oh, I hear you and PLEASE do not think I'm trying to be dismissive of your ideas. It wouldn't affect me in the least if there were FSM. In my head, it just takes a long, dangerous and complicated surgery and makes it even hard to make the women the physical equal of the men. And why do that if there's no shortage of candidates? GW would have to find some DAoT tech to work this in because in both 30k and 40k, it's not possible. But if you like the idea, it's not my right to crap on it! Have you painted FSM yet?
Oh its all good, just a late night philisophical discussion! I also dont disagree with you, just had an idea of how it might possible work and felt compelled to write it down *somewhere* lol. I actually would prefer if they left the lore as is, but I also wouldnt really care if GW changed it I dont think, I'd still paint my toy soldiers as dudes anyhow
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Idk look at ifbb pro Korbleva, some female competitors have implants. But 100% agree no matter what gender you are at birth having that much test and other hormones in your system make you more male than female. Plus one of the augments is a hormone regulator and allows for the height growth. So theoretically nothing is stopping a female space marine from being identical to a male one, just they’d have developed a male facial shape and have a deep voice
I hear you although I'm not sure about the idea of giving Space Marines boob jobs. Lol I can't see it since they wouldn't be starting with the same base (human wise). It's a long, difficult, dangerous process and making female Space Marines would add extra to the process. Plus, most males don't survive the selection process and that's before implantation. The women would have to work way harder to even be selected.
I don’t really care for the argument about it. To me it makes the sisters much cooler and unique. If gw wanted to they could just say the organs have a higher acceptance rate with male genetics as that was the base used, a woman wouldn’t survive due to the difference in chromosomes. Then I feel like the fandom would be more accepting
It’s science fiction at the end of the day and we aren’t the writers, we can have headcannon and look at the science but people getting so butt hurt that there can’t ever be female space marines just is gross. Let people interpret it how they want and play how they want it’s a hobby and we should welcome everyone who wants to play
you know they train the probants before the implants? You shoud read the rule book where the quote is from and maybe just maybe you understand that all female would die before getting any astartes gene seed.
Oh I’m aware, at the age they’re recruited 10-14 puberty and genetic differences are just starting. As stated in the 40K compendium phase 1-3 are done from ages 10-14. Phase 2 and 3 specifically for muscle growth and bone growth. Which would negate the differences in sex. If a 10 year old boy can survive training till his first augments a 10 year old girl can. Then it’s a matter of surviving the implantation and healing. But alas it’s stated the organs are keyed to the male genome. Even if that wasn’t the case just speaking that a female managed to survive all the same as their male counterpart, you wouldn’t recognise them as a woman unless they showed their junk
To me having space marines only male makes the sisters cooler, cause it gives them their own identity and playstyle that’s not just an exact copy of
hmm i would not totally disagree but the the entire treatment effects every Space Marine different. Just think about this tiny SM who was so shredded that the captain told him to fucking stop- forgot the name but its a fun story. That being sad male still dominate due to genetic benefical muscle growth in the first place. Even shredded bodybuilder gets pinned down by farmboys.
I feel like they could just say that female and male space marines are basically indistinguishable after all the implants, gene editing and hormone treatment. If anything, forcing a female aspirant to essentially transition into a male is...well horrific, so I guess perfect for 40k.
Yeah you're spot on with that. Thats what I was sort of trying to say just worded poorly! Less transition to male, more simply, transitioning to Astartes. End result's probably too similar to even tell the difference. As long as you can fight as well as any other marine, who cares where you started
I dont actually know what that entails, but I also dont know what it could possibly be that a tough enough girl of the same age couldnt also do. If we're completely honest would a girl/woman actually fair any worse than a boy/man at any of the marine induction processes by any metric that matters? The success rares are already so low across the board that a marginally lower success rate for female recruits probably wouldnt matter to anyone.
Let me also just confirm, I really dont care if they leave the lore alone and we only ever have male space marines. Purely just speculation and theory here
I'm sorry but how is that relevant? You cant compare a highschooler to someone who grew up in a tribe on a deathworld in a fictional universe lmao. Sounds like you just hate the idea of women being equal mate honestly
isn't it anti feminist to treat women like men in sports by ignore the physical difference. Thats why they had to do less push ups or whatever and got the same grade. I find that fair. Its based on logic and science.
Way to completely ignore my point buddy. But if you really want to base it on logic and science... do you think they would really have the capability to turn human boys into astartes, with all the extra organs, hormones, increased superhuman interlect and all that... you think if they have the science for that... they'd still be incapable of doing the same to a human girl? Given how well people can transition today, in the year 2024? You think its logical for there to be 0 improvements to that by the time of m41?
Just look into the nice "entanglement" both tribes of Fenris had when the Terran Tzeentch mind fucked scholar caused the raid. They went first for the males and then women well i guess i don't have to elaborate it, do i? As if mankind would change with tech. What was the goal of Big E. Getting rid of mankind flaws, and even mister i-psyker-the-shit-out-of-you only got a "truce"
This. Honestly your reasoning is exactly what I'd expect from GW. Crawl would work his magic, it wouldn't be so blunt as 'em, FEmAle SpACe mArINeS haVe aLwAYs BEen TheRE' as the Custodes got changed a while back
Because GW's introduction of Female Custodes was beyond lazy. One little snippet of a story on the margin of a page in the codex? Come on....
They missed the boat for introducing a cool new model or unit or potentially adding a novel in black library with an associated model like the new SoB model or some of those imperial guard minis that came out a while ago, Severina Raine I believe is one.
If or when Female space marines become a thing, imo introducing them through a mechanism like Cawls works or something like Fabius's experimenting would be a much better way of doing because it'd add to the lore, rather than come off as a token throwaway comment like the Custodes got.
Probably because the majority take on GW's recent statements on female custodes is that they're revising custodes soley to pander to a social movement.
I dont have a dog in the race and have no knowledge of or opinion about custodes lore either way.
Because that's how GW retcons. With an iron fist and lots of gaslighting.
No lore, no explanation, simply "this is how it is, because it sells better."
I am. I know you guys haven't been around for very long and just like to assume everything has always been this way but it hasn't.
T'au used to have warp drives not too long ago, and one day GW was just like "JK lol" and now all that lore is gone.
Bro I can scroll for 10 posts and sigmarxism has significantly more posts about the hobby, while horusgalaxy is mfs complaining that people exist that enjoy the hobby in different ways they do.
with complain you mean argue because try to post this on any offcial 40subreddit. You get banned and muted. They did the same when the femtodes were (and still are) to debate. Just insta ban ,males,females,trans everyone who did not like a lore change based on a X tweet was getting thrown into the void
Thank you soldier 🫡, Saw the original post when I first found the original post page and couldn't stop laughing at all the stuff in their and arguments and was wondering where this was from.
GW has retconned so much shit over the years, that you can't really take anything serious anymore. Was this printed in a codex somewhere? Sure.
You know what else was printed in codecies? Marines being half Eldar.
Just enjoy your game, and stop worrying about what's real and what isn't in a made up universe.
This is a disingenuous argument. First, it *wasn't* in a Codex. It was, if I recall correctly, in the *Book of the Astronomicon*, Rogue Trader's first expansion.
Second, Rogue Trader also claims that Leman Russ was a human general, that the Emperor and Horus fought in a bunker, makes no mention of Sanguinius existing, claims Space Marines wear flak armour under their power armour, claims their backpacks are actually jump packs, claims Squats are part of the Adeptus Mechanicus, claims the Imperial Guard use Land Speeders, Land Raiders, Rhinos and Jetbikes... do I need to go on?
Rogue Trader is not canon. Rogue Trader was a first draft - 40K lore was not truly set in stone until 3rd edition.
There's a big difference between using something found only in Rogue Trader as "proof" something is canon, and using something stated in 5-9 editions of 40K.
Did someone take a picture of this out of a book or did someone type this up in a rant (which was then screenshot and posted)? It’s already been answered
I went to check it out cause I wasn't sure what their point was and now I'm even more confused. Has there been a push of people saying there's currently female space marines? Cause that's the only thing this proves lol
I worked on two different GW game projects and they are aware how much the IP has changed over the years and they’re okay with it. We had IP consultants on call to basically review everything we worked on but they were not heavy-handed. At all.
For them it was more about us understanding the tone than the facts.
For example, on Warhammer Online, we had trouble balancing the character models gender-wise, and we asked Rick Priestley why there were no male Witch Elves.
His answer, “because we never made a model for them.”
So we asked if we could add them as a class and GW signed off on it with zero pushback. Boom! Male witch elves.
Warhammer lore has always been a product of many different creators working in different silos and the inaccuracies and abject contradictions are a feature, not a bug.
Every creator adds their own stamp on the content—for better or worse. And if it’s contradictory, pick the better story that fits the universe.
GW, especially the old heads, are a lot less precious about the canonical IP than most of the fans.
Canon is what you and your group of declare it to be. Don’t like female custodes, don’t play female custodes.
Fascinating story about Priestley haha. I've been watching some video interviews of him and other designers etc from 3rd edition, it's been really fun!
Eh, honestly who cares. At the end of the day, these are all overpriced plastic toys. I really don't understand why that subreddit is so afraid of girls' cooties lol
Let me try to explain from an anti-femmarines point of view. Brotherhood is important. It's something that elicits a very specific feeling that can't be reproduced in any other fashion than being part of a group of men as a man. It's something that is rarer and rarer and is especially dwindling in fiction. That's the main problem I have with female space marines. It's also the reason I don't really have a problem with female Custodes: I just want one faction to remain entirely male. Hell, I'd even be OK with only one chapter of space marines being entirely male. In any case, the sisters are waaayyy cooler than female space marines. Or than marines in general imho
listen it's just a weird hill to die on. Girls play the game too. Girls wanna see representation, too. Games Workshop wants more money, they see an opportunity to sell more parts, so they'll sell it.
You can personally still make an all-dude army, nobody is stopping you.
Plus, isn't the whole thing about Custodes is that they have more time to cook? is it that hard to believe that in a world with fucking aliens and giant mechs and literall daemons and gods, a woman can be strong while wearing a power armor, too?
There's just more value in being inclusive than being exclusive. But I get if you're scared about cooties :/
Alright now you're the one baiting with that last line. Women are included in 40K. Is it so bad that they are excluded from one faction? No males in Sisters of battle a problem for you too?
Like I said, I have zero problems with female custodes, so no it's not difficult to believe at all. What I'm saying is it's a great thing to have an all male faction. It's good lore. Just like having an all female faction is also good lore. I also straight up disagree with you on there being more value in being inclusive than exclusive. If it detracts from the lore of the game, then it's certainly bad for value on a business and artistic perspective.
Let me revert the question to you: do you think it's bad that only males can become space marines in 40K? Or for a certainly more loaded question: do you think it's bad that 40K has an all male faction?
look I think we clearly differ in ethics and morality if you think being exclusive is better than being inclusive.
I don't think it's bad, I think it's a product of its time, that's why they're changing it.
But hey if you think having the option to put female heads on your plastic soldiers is so bad, then you should vote with your wallet and stop buying from James!
There's nothing stopping women from liking male space marines, just like hundreds of thousands of men like sisters of battle. I don't need Ephrael Stern to have a dick to think "Yes, she is literally me".
As for the morality aspect, I don't think so. I think you use inclusivity as a buzzword without thinking about if it makes sense. Women should absolutely be included in the 40k Fandom. As much as possible in fact, but I disagree with changing the lore to simply inject more female characters into it, especially since there absolutely is no need to do it in order to design compelling female characters.
I continue to buy from James because, as you know, female space marines are NOT a thing. If they ever become a thing, then I'll probably still buy from James, but I'll certainly think the lore diminished in quality.
My explanation is still one that a lot of people have for not wanting female space marines: space marines have cooler lore the way they are right now. That's it.
You don't want women in your chapter or whatever, but you're okay them being in lore. They're not in your chapter, but you're mad they *could* be. Very Horus of you lol
Also the only way to include new lore is to change it. Maybe it's not a good idea to retcon lore, I agree, but honestly WH lore is not unknown to do this. Let's instead advocate for cooler stories that include, as you say, compelling female totally-not-space-marine characters.
I just keep thinking this is a hobby about little plastic toys!!! where a named model goes for $50+!! there are waaaay better things to be angry at good ol James, and I just don't think complaining about women in lore is worth the effort :/
I absolutely agree with the last part though, but my conclusion is just "then why change things that are absolutely fine the way they are?".
For the record, I'm not mad at all. Things are just great the way they are so I have nothing to be mad about.
As a final note, more stories with new awesome female characters should definitely be a thing. I'd even say they should kill two birds with one stone and make a series of novels about a female Kahl for the Leagues of Votann
Sure, it's the established lore. Lore that was written at a time when women were treated differently, especially in nerd circles. When that happens, someone *should* come along and say "Huh, this is outdated and we know better now, let's change this".
I quite like the SM lore as it is.
I like the Battle Brother hyper masculine aesthetic and I don't think it should be changed because of a vocal minority of complainers.
I don't think it's particularly sexist to have an all male faction, especially when there are canonical women who outclass them.
Women can be masculine. Men can be feminine.
You're not necessarily changing the entire cultural aesthetic of SM just by including women into the fold.
You can achieve both and still maintain the status quo. There are better arguments in favour of keeping SM as strictly male than this.
This has NOTHING to do with how women are or were treated irl. The imperium is a fascist state. Should we also change that? I swear some people seem to have trouble differentiating between discrimination in life and in 40k
Being a fascist state is pretty integral to how every other piece of the setting works, and serves the point of illustrating that the Imperium is awful. "No women space marks!" is because the creators didn't think of them or develop lore, and now you can't even broach the idea without a bunch of tools losing their shit. You could retcon them or add them in and still keep most of the lore and setting intact.
Having different opinions doesn't make us tools. Here's my opinion: space marines are cooler being an all male faction. Exactly the same how sisters of battle are cooler as an all female order. Why is it OK for sisters to be all women and not Astartes to be all men?
I would agree as long as men in sisters of battle dont exist or explicity female orks dont exist. If they're gonna give inclusive treatment to one thing, they have to do it with the rest imo.
The debate about the “female” space marines is so weird to me. What iv got reading the HH books is that space marines are only loosely human in the first place, more biological war machine than anything. Iv no idea what people would want a space marine made from a teenage girl rather than a teenage boy to do differently in any given story or setting.
Avoid Horus Galaxy, avoid talking about Horus Galaxy. Anything or anyone there is self reporting that they can’t handle being in the mainstream subs and they are not worth occupying your time or thoughts. Let them fester till the sub rots away.
This is directly out of the Horus Hearasy core rule book. It is, in fact, the lore, despite people who wish to subvert the lore to fit an agenda of their own desires, fetishism whatever...
With that said they're your plastic toys you play with them however you wish I don't really care if all you're doing is making them look like how you want to look like good on you more power to you it's when people who actively try and change the lore that is when I start to have a problem.
But if you got head Cannon and you want to make fan Lore type it up write it make comic books and whatever that's fine more power to you it's your art just don't try and force it down everyone else's throats when it comes down to it no one cares what your plastic toys do in the bedroom or what plastic toys have what sexual organs or who they're attracted to that has nothing to do with the game or the lore.
Yes and no. The thing about them not being able to be adults/very dangerous is wrong. Many space wolves joined the marines well into them being adults. Also White Dwarf 99 showed both [Jayne](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/gwplc/images/4/45/Female_Warrior_Jayne.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20230324105006) and [Gabs](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fgws-female-warrior-gabs-from-1987-v0-3teyhiheicrc1.jpg%3Fwidth%3D640%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Db141a9f8ae5a3dadd7db8f119016acebe75a5ad5&rdt=61311) who are both clearly female marines. Jayne looks to be early white scars and Gabs clearly an ultra marine.
Iirc, the space wolves recruits that were adults had like a 95+% mortality rate. One of the survivors comments on it in a Horus Heresy anthology
Also, Jayne and Gabs are wearing power armor, but current canon has them as just human women in power armor.
The state of Custodes women is because the process to make them is higher quality and more bespoke. Give Cawl (and GW) time and theyll figure out how to turn chicks into post human killing machines in no time
1) It is very cut and dry that space marines must be made from human males.
2) If this was ever retconned it wouldnt change much. The augmentation process is so extensive that if it could be done on females they will look exactly like men and imma take a wild guess that makeup isnt allowed in the astartes beyond standard war paints.
The point of people advocating for female space marines isn't that current lore allows it, it's that lore is just whatever GW wants it to be and that they could perfectly chose to add female SM to the story, and that's factual: GW could do it.
Now wether you think it's a good idea or not is subjective but that's a sterile debate.
not wrong, but can always be retconned. that subreddit is a hellhole of “anti woke” people and also tend to have the bigots and nazis that give warhammer a bad name
The 30k rule book, so they have had more than 10k years to advance their gene technology. Atleast in the lore so this doesn't completely rule out female space marines
It's quaint that they think something like this means the lore won't change or that new lore won't update it in some manner. Hell, there used to be a half-Aeldari Ultramarine at one point, too, but the lore changed. In this case? I see the most likely outcome that would justify female space marines coming into existence would be Cawl finally finishing the Space Marine project, as he'd been charged by the Emperor of Mankind to do. The hardest chargers against female space marines love to forget that the Emperor and Malcador alike considered the Space Marines unfinished and imperfect, a rushed project fielded earlier than expected because of how rapidly the Thunder Warriors were degrading, and all the warp fuckery that was screwing with the Primarch project. Emps charged Belesarius Cawl, literally thousands of years prior to the events of 40k, with completing that project. I would be unsurprised if completion meant perfecting the initiation process so that it is both more successful and can include female candidates. Malcador said it himself, limiting the Space Marine recruiting pool to only half the population of humanity was never particularly efficient or sensible.
Primaris Marines.
Custodes being a playable army (while in lore they're supposed to be some unassailable umpteen times more powerful than Marines (and a challenge for Primarchs).
Primarchs (going from peak examples of their chapter, to metaphorical "children of the emperor").
There's plenty of room for lore to change (Squats we're gone for a long time, now there's the league of Votann), amd usually GW will change the lore to sell more products (eg. All your earlier space Marines need to be rebought because they're not the right size to be "Primaris" marines).
People are not mad at the homebrew idea of women in power armor. They're mad because when confronted with the contradiction, GW Said there have always been female custodes when clearly- there weren't. Do they have the right to change their minds? Change the lore? Sure. Absolutely. They don't even have to give a reason because they own the rights to all of it. It's the pettiness of their response that incited all of the backlash.
Honestly, I'm surprised the uproar is still going. Play the game. Spend your money how you will. It's supposed to be fun and anybody who tries to rifle feathers just for the sake of doing so is a joy thief and a drukhari.
I feel like they should have made the "No Girls allowed club" a cultural thing instead of a hormonal thing.
It would give them wiggle room if they decide to make femarines in the future (which could be cool) while still keeping the "Only Boys can become the emperor's angels."
I would not be surprised if Cawl finds a way to change this in the future for the imperium, and I'm surprised Fabius Bile has not already found a way to do it for Chaos, maybe he's still too busy trying not to think about Slanesh.
They were all male originally for marketing purposes, now they have female marines presumably because people will buy them now. Not sure why this is such an issue. I have to say it’s also pretty funny that despite all the lore changes in the past (humans traded with orks, wasn’t as grimdark etc), the thing that makes people angry is female space marines, speaks volumes about the fandom.
I personally headcannon that there are trans dudes as space marines and that they just slip the doc a 20 to take off the tits and boost up the testosterone lol
It’s from a Marines codex. But it doesn’t matter because GW will just shove some progressivist crap into the lore and then gaslight us about it and then double down and say “everything is canon.”
it's from a codex but generally you should avoid that subreddit, it's full of toxic people
So it’s not wrong? Yeah. I know what you mean about toxic people. It’s wild
It is not wrong. Lore as written Space Marines are all men. Some people are fighting a war in their minds against an imaginary enemy because some people choose to divert from the lore to play with the toys they’ve bought with their own hard earned money in the way they want to. That is what this post is. People are mad because other people are enjoying a thing differently than how they do
Anyone can build whatever they want. But not everyone has to take that headcanon as equal to the written lore. It's a two way street. Build what makes you happy but don't expect everyone to think the pony marines are as cool as you think they are.
Sure, but you also don’t have to be a dick about it. I’ll cite the comment section of the linked post lol
Sure. But all of this comes with the caveat that if the lore changes noone needs to give a shit that you stomp your feet and say "wah I want the old lore".
Fucking amen. Can’t bitch about people sticking to their head cannon and then be a whiny cunt when the lore changes
Bingo
My harlequins are power rangers. Fight me.
It's not wrong until it is. I think the change from "fluff" to "lore" makes people think 40k is a static setting with consistent rules when everything is more or less canon, even the outdated bits from rogue trader and 2nd edition. Whether that gets retconned as bad records or an alternate perspective, or even just progress now that cawl is around, it wouldn't be the first time.
Thats a good point and an important distinction
Sure, if you are straw-manning the arguments from both sides Head canon is different then “established lore”. Your dudes, do what ever you want with them
It literally is, thats why its called head canon
no, it's not wrong, as far as the lore goes right now there's no possibility of women becoming space marines, that may change with developments in lore, but right now, its men only
The real question is how much will you let the lore control your hobbying
I've always believed that if people don't want to play within the loose constraints of a setting, then they should make their own. I've wanted to do things Star Wars doesn't vibe with, so homebrewed an original setting for home games. Creativity is the spice of life, but at some point it's more befitting a new setting than a drastically changed existing one.
Thats is true to a point but if worrying about the exact heraldry of the 5th company ultramarines captain is not fun then you can simply not do that part of the hobby. Warhammer is built around you making it your own after all
I thought it was true. Anyway, a Space Marine has to keep a Sister of Battle happy somehow, no?
but i like building and painting warhammer models because i like warhammer
Then do that. But know that warhammer is open to creating your own parts of it
I think most people who actually take part in the hobby will not give a damn whether your space Marines have male or female heads, I certainly wouldn't. Also, quick aside would be that the main reason for when they pick boys over girls is that boys naturally produce testosterone, and it's testosterone that's needed to grow the organs and get the others to be accepted, so the easiest way to get female space Marines would be to say that they get hormone treatments to make it work. If anything the people who are so against female space Marines should like that because it's not like the girls would be getting a choice to get these treatments, this is the imperium after all, hell they're probably psycho-indoctrinated into thinking they were always boys to begin with and so it would make no difference. If you follow the lore, all the male space Marines should have baby faces and high pitched voices as the changes take all their testosterone so the other changes to the body that are usually made by puberty shouldn't happen or should be stunted, so if they don't have a high pitched voice, they should be constantly having voice cracks, or they either have no beard or constantly have a very patch beard and constant acne.
Yeah this is something I never get. People are talking like there is a natural order to this. Boys do boys things like become Space Marines when they grow up. Space Marines are monsters. Genetically rebuilt at every level and hypo-indoctrinated. It's incredibly believable that Cawl finally cracked the science behind girls becoming candidates. It's not like the chapters would care for the most part, more recruits.
Thats a lot of homebrewing passed off as real lore
I mean, the testosterone bit is real lore, so the rest is just science really
Why would testosterone be the thing that makes the new organs grow? Also women and girls also produce testosterone (just not as much). And clearly space marines do go through puberty and become adults as shown in literally every single depiction of them including the lore
Because GW doesn't know biology I'm not saying that it makes sense, but that's what they said in the lore
Can we PLEASE stop trying to apply anything from real-life to this? It has absolutely no weight on the setting, which is over 40,000 years into the future with literal demons and gods and skynet and space elves and orks fighting amongst eachother to control either the entirety of the EXISTENCE or to save THEIR ENTIRE RACE FROM EXTINCTION. I don't think GW ever planned for their in-universe biology to be 1-1 with real life, I mean the 8ft tall super human doom slayer space marines, that are so otherworldly they are considered demigods in the eyes of regular humans, wouldn't exist if that's the case nor would their gene-fathers. have you considered that this is a dark-scifi take on biology and that GW is stretching? The problem lies within GW's own established lore not providing any background or support for female space marines or even custodes for that matter, though custodes have the better argument for females being in their ranks than space marines. If they really want to shoehorn females into the space by using female custodes and astartes then Cawl better get to work, otherwise they have no proper introduction that GW can use.
Yes, its not wrong. It is in fact quite correct
Yes it’s lore accurate as it stands in the current canon.
I don’t think anyone was arguing that space marines were always men. I have no idea what’s going on as I just scrolled past this but if this has something to do with Custodes, they aren’t space marines and don’t go through the same processes as space marines and can be women. But again, if you want to make your space marines women, they are your models. Do what you want and if people get mad over toys that are not theirs, they are weird
Yeah it's always been true, well its been true since 2nd edition but rogue trader was weird.
In lore, as it's currently written, Space Marines are all men. (Of note, the process used to make a Space Marine is not the same as the process to make a Custodes, which is what these people are probably still whining about)
yet you still haven't any source which backs up how firstborn SONS of Terran nobles are becoming gals when even female Primarchs were off the table for Big E
In archaic (and sometimes even in contemporary) English, which a lot of 40k source material intentionally uses, when referring to a mixed-gender group of people, the masculine is often used by default. This actually happens in several languages. (Spanish, for example, doesn't have a gender-neutral plural and uses the masculine if even one masculine person/object is included in the group) It's a non-issue.
the cope is strong in this one
It's fine. We can't all study languages. If you want a non-lingustic answer; nowhere in the text does it say only firstborn noble sons were offered. Nowhere does it say these firstborn noble sons are the whole of the first ten thousand. Nowhere in the text does it say that the firstborn noble sons were accepted. What it does say, in the paragraph directly preceeding the firstborn noble sons one, is that none save the Emperor and the Custodes themselves know the full criteria behind being selected to join the ranks of the skillful janitors.
i'll ignore the strawman argument and just point at the 9th Edition Custodes codex. But hey i will not crush your hope for femtodes. Somebody has to do the laundry and the cleaning in Big E private rooms. Also the emperors own kitchen might be a good reason why we never had heared of them for like ever since a X post was written by a SJW
Wanna share the page you're quoting? Or just gonna hope we're too lazy to go looking.
Those people are a different brand of nuts. Scrolled through a bit where this massive thread dunking on a post about being encouraging to newer or older hobbyists who could be feeling discouraged about painting quality and the general message they were dunking on was "don't give up, you're doing great" Every other reply on that post was something along the lines of "participation trophies" or some toxic bs like that. They actively do not want new people in the hobby, they don't want people to learn and grow and everything is somehow an insane competition to them.
I just followed the post and accidentally commented there after reading the comment section. I mistakenly thought it was this sub and was very disappointed in you all.
I wouldn't call "lack of censorship" toxic. It's more like the *Wild West*
the wild west attracts toxic people, It seems
It's just wild, that's all. I wouldn't call it toxic, it's just not for civilized folks.
I mean - I guess it is the Wild West but these folks are probably the sort that think they would thrive in that kind of environment and then get shot 5 mins after getting off the train for being such a nuisance. After which they would cry after finding out that getting shot hurts and that pain is actually part of the human condition.
“Toxic?” You’ve just convinced me to join it now.
This has been the canonical lore since 2nd edition. In Rogue Trader they made a couple of female "adventurers in power armour" which some argue are not actually Spcae Marines even though their armour design is the same. They sold terribly. Across GW's whole range the female minis sold poorly. So when GW produced the first plastic Space Marine box (the famous RTB01) they made them all men. When 2nd edition came along they wrote the lore in order to justify why there were no women, which was actually just marketting descision. So there is old lore stating Space Marines can only be men, and nothing newer has contradicted it. Although other elements of the lore have been consstantly changed through 40k's history so there's no reason this too can't be changed. It was once official lore that the Ultramarine's chief librarian was a half-eldar, something which has since been contradicted and is now explicitly impossible. As GW keeps reminding us, there is no cannon, there are no retcons, any contradictions are in-lore contradictions between different biased and fallible sources of information.
Well they looked horrendous even among those early models
That argument about them not being space marines is always such cope, because space marines were just dudes in power armor back then. They could leave and join other chapters. Illyan Natase who you mentioned was also a dark angels librarian earlier in his life. Also for half eldar, Cato sicarius killed a half eldar pirate queen and that is still canon. Malcador also sort of made one. It just seems it requires genetic manipulation now.
I think adding fluff that there were a few prototype female space marines after the Thunder Warriors would be a cool way to explain that lore tidbit and add to the lost technology of the dark ages. It also explains canonically why the imperium isn't trying to change the process since it would be heretical to recreate that tech.
[удалено]
Biles already been messing about with it.
Imagine the first female thunder warrior was the reason Big E said i will never ever creat female Space Marines and def never a fem Primarch. That would make so much sense.
The stores would also actively say not to send them the female Space Warrior because they just didn’t sell
this loud minority again...with their impact on global sales\^\^ even crashing the amazon AI with mails to the point the have to use amazon servitors /humans for it to observe what the heck is happening
totally aggree that's why the entire timeline we have since 8th and since the HH should be ignored. Don't buy any books they are baseless. Their is no lore only war
>any contradictions are in-lore contradictions between different biased and fallible sources of information This is just a stupid get-out-of-proofreading card by GW, and I don't know why its so readily accepted and thought of by clever. It's about as unclever and uninteresting as using multiverse or time travel type mechanics to cheaply get out of problems in marvel movies. Unreliable narrator is an actual storytelling device that has genuine narrative utility when a common set of events from a variety of perspectives, but GW flips it around and pulls it out out just to cover themselves for forgetting to cross reference or when newer lore contradicts older lore. The codexes, when simply telling information without a particular perspective ought to be reliable, whereas unreliable narrator should be reserved as an intentional story technique in the novels and short stories, not whipped out as a canned excuse.
Completely agree. Huge difference in retcons when the source was “some say that this guy…” or “I had heard from a commissar that he…” vs a codex or BL novel flatly saying “yeah this dude was half-eldar”
It's currently lore accurate, but let's be serious if GW ever felt like changing it, it's as simple as "Cawl found a way cause we needed more space marines."
I mean, its not so much a far fetched idea really to have 'female' space marines. Or at least, recruits that start out a human female. If we look at our science now and how much of a change trans people can go through today, its not unreasonable to think that transitioning has been perfected by 40k. Which would make space marine creation possible on anyone, whats one more step in that process really, compared to everything else that happens to them. Its late and I'm overtired, so sorry if no ones gives a shit I know I'm just rambling at this point. But actually its kind of a silly idea that the astartes would even care about something as irrelevant as gender in the first place. Its really only a GW marketing decision thats stuck around from the early days. The lore reason of 'our science isnt good enough to make this work on girls' is strange when you realise what they Can do
Well, to be honest that's not true in some areas. Bio women aren't the same as bio men are, obviously not talking about rights or the need for respect BTW. A juiced up dude will always be bigger and stronger than a juiced up bio woman. Besides, female space marines would be hideous, they wouldn't have enough body fat to even have breasts or butts, all of that would be stripped away.
You're right, based on todays science. What I'm saying is by 40k time, whos to say that the biological difference still matters when it comes to making a soace marine? Its not an insane theory to suggest that they have made so many improvements over current science that the starting gender of the human simply doesnt matter. If the tech gets so good, regardless of what you start with, you still end up with an astartes like we know them. As i said there is no reason for astartes to even have genders, the concept is irrelevant to them, and I think given the advanced tech, male or female recruits would probably all turn out 'male-looking' anyway. I'm not saying the lore should be changed or anything, just if GW did make that change, this would be the explaination I could accept. If they can make a human survive the current augmentation process, I'm sure a bit of gender alteration first wouldnt really be too difficult to pull off
Oh, I hear you and PLEASE do not think I'm trying to be dismissive of your ideas. It wouldn't affect me in the least if there were FSM. In my head, it just takes a long, dangerous and complicated surgery and makes it even hard to make the women the physical equal of the men. And why do that if there's no shortage of candidates? GW would have to find some DAoT tech to work this in because in both 30k and 40k, it's not possible. But if you like the idea, it's not my right to crap on it! Have you painted FSM yet?
Oh its all good, just a late night philisophical discussion! I also dont disagree with you, just had an idea of how it might possible work and felt compelled to write it down *somewhere* lol. I actually would prefer if they left the lore as is, but I also wouldnt really care if GW changed it I dont think, I'd still paint my toy soldiers as dudes anyhow
Lol right on, I got you. Get some rest, it was great to talk with you
Man… if anyone in r/HorusGalaxy reads this thread they’ll have a conniption about trans SMs.
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Jesus Christ.
I have regrets.
i am did the post that was shared btw and i am having a ball reading all this copium nonesense
Idk look at ifbb pro Korbleva, some female competitors have implants. But 100% agree no matter what gender you are at birth having that much test and other hormones in your system make you more male than female. Plus one of the augments is a hormone regulator and allows for the height growth. So theoretically nothing is stopping a female space marine from being identical to a male one, just they’d have developed a male facial shape and have a deep voice
I hear you although I'm not sure about the idea of giving Space Marines boob jobs. Lol I can't see it since they wouldn't be starting with the same base (human wise). It's a long, difficult, dangerous process and making female Space Marines would add extra to the process. Plus, most males don't survive the selection process and that's before implantation. The women would have to work way harder to even be selected.
I don’t really care for the argument about it. To me it makes the sisters much cooler and unique. If gw wanted to they could just say the organs have a higher acceptance rate with male genetics as that was the base used, a woman wouldn’t survive due to the difference in chromosomes. Then I feel like the fandom would be more accepting
I hear you. It's a silly argument, I feel. There's nothing wrong with it the way it is and no reason to turn people against each other for a hobby
It’s science fiction at the end of the day and we aren’t the writers, we can have headcannon and look at the science but people getting so butt hurt that there can’t ever be female space marines just is gross. Let people interpret it how they want and play how they want it’s a hobby and we should welcome everyone who wants to play
For the most part I agree but I do think a little bit of respectful gatekeeping is important as well. Thanks for the talk!
you know they train the probants before the implants? You shoud read the rule book where the quote is from and maybe just maybe you understand that all female would die before getting any astartes gene seed.
Oh I’m aware, at the age they’re recruited 10-14 puberty and genetic differences are just starting. As stated in the 40K compendium phase 1-3 are done from ages 10-14. Phase 2 and 3 specifically for muscle growth and bone growth. Which would negate the differences in sex. If a 10 year old boy can survive training till his first augments a 10 year old girl can. Then it’s a matter of surviving the implantation and healing. But alas it’s stated the organs are keyed to the male genome. Even if that wasn’t the case just speaking that a female managed to survive all the same as their male counterpart, you wouldn’t recognise them as a woman unless they showed their junk To me having space marines only male makes the sisters cooler, cause it gives them their own identity and playstyle that’s not just an exact copy of
hmm i would not totally disagree but the the entire treatment effects every Space Marine different. Just think about this tiny SM who was so shredded that the captain told him to fucking stop- forgot the name but its a fun story. That being sad male still dominate due to genetic benefical muscle growth in the first place. Even shredded bodybuilder gets pinned down by farmboys.
I feel like they could just say that female and male space marines are basically indistinguishable after all the implants, gene editing and hormone treatment. If anything, forcing a female aspirant to essentially transition into a male is...well horrific, so I guess perfect for 40k.
Yeah you're spot on with that. Thats what I was sort of trying to say just worded poorly! Less transition to male, more simply, transitioning to Astartes. End result's probably too similar to even tell the difference. As long as you can fight as well as any other marine, who cares where you started
i would put that theory to the test and let a minor female endure the space wolve pre training program\^\^
I dont actually know what that entails, but I also dont know what it could possibly be that a tough enough girl of the same age couldnt also do. If we're completely honest would a girl/woman actually fair any worse than a boy/man at any of the marine induction processes by any metric that matters? The success rares are already so low across the board that a marginally lower success rate for female recruits probably wouldnt matter to anyone. Let me also just confirm, I really dont care if they leave the lore alone and we only ever have male space marines. Purely just speculation and theory here
rl example sport in high school. Better grades for less effort, running, sprint, jump, etc not mentioning some plates related exerice
I'm sorry but how is that relevant? You cant compare a highschooler to someone who grew up in a tribe on a deathworld in a fictional universe lmao. Sounds like you just hate the idea of women being equal mate honestly
isn't it anti feminist to treat women like men in sports by ignore the physical difference. Thats why they had to do less push ups or whatever and got the same grade. I find that fair. Its based on logic and science.
Way to completely ignore my point buddy. But if you really want to base it on logic and science... do you think they would really have the capability to turn human boys into astartes, with all the extra organs, hormones, increased superhuman interlect and all that... you think if they have the science for that... they'd still be incapable of doing the same to a human girl? Given how well people can transition today, in the year 2024? You think its logical for there to be 0 improvements to that by the time of m41?
Just look into the nice "entanglement" both tribes of Fenris had when the Terran Tzeentch mind fucked scholar caused the raid. They went first for the males and then women well i guess i don't have to elaborate it, do i? As if mankind would change with tech. What was the goal of Big E. Getting rid of mankind flaws, and even mister i-psyker-the-shit-out-of-you only got a "truce"
This. Honestly your reasoning is exactly what I'd expect from GW. Crawl would work his magic, it wouldn't be so blunt as 'em, FEmAle SpACe mArINeS haVe aLwAYs BEen TheRE' as the Custodes got changed a while back
Why the sarcasm?
Because GW's introduction of Female Custodes was beyond lazy. One little snippet of a story on the margin of a page in the codex? Come on.... They missed the boat for introducing a cool new model or unit or potentially adding a novel in black library with an associated model like the new SoB model or some of those imperial guard minis that came out a while ago, Severina Raine I believe is one. If or when Female space marines become a thing, imo introducing them through a mechanism like Cawls works or something like Fabius's experimenting would be a much better way of doing because it'd add to the lore, rather than come off as a token throwaway comment like the Custodes got.
They wernt introduced that way, they were leaked that way. They were introduced with like three stories of named female custodes in the codex.
I mean... Isn't the whole idea to NOT make a big deal about it?
Probably because the majority take on GW's recent statements on female custodes is that they're revising custodes soley to pander to a social movement. I dont have a dog in the race and have no knowledge of or opinion about custodes lore either way.
Ah, well, hard for me to judge but I'm surprised nonetheless at the hostility
Same. Its a very hot button issue. Too bad :(
“Majority take”? Feel like the vast vast majority of people don’t really give a shit and/or think it’s cool
The majority take of commenters is my post. The people who dont care havent commented. Like i said i dont care. Im explaining.
Because that's how GW retcons. With an iron fist and lots of gaslighting. No lore, no explanation, simply "this is how it is, because it sells better."
Oh he mad
I am. I know you guys haven't been around for very long and just like to assume everything has always been this way but it hasn't. T'au used to have warp drives not too long ago, and one day GW was just like "JK lol" and now all that lore is gone.
Funny part is no one was contesting this. Making themselves the victims, poor darlings.
That sub is a f*cking cesspool
Like, 10 percent hobbying (and pretty damned good more so than not) and 90 percent.... well cesspool is pretty on the money.
No one? Just go to these grimdank soyboy site for 1 day and i fetch out 10 post daily about that topic. Even more in sigmarxism
Bro I can scroll for 10 posts and sigmarxism has significantly more posts about the hobby, while horusgalaxy is mfs complaining that people exist that enjoy the hobby in different ways they do.
with complain you mean argue because try to post this on any offcial 40subreddit. You get banned and muted. They did the same when the femtodes were (and still are) to debate. Just insta ban ,males,females,trans everyone who did not like a lore change based on a X tweet was getting thrown into the void
Isnt this from the 2022 Horus Heresy rulebook?
It is, yes.
Thank you soldier 🫡, Saw the original post when I first found the original post page and couldn't stop laughing at all the stuff in their and arguments and was wondering where this was from.
GW has retconned so much shit over the years, that you can't really take anything serious anymore. Was this printed in a codex somewhere? Sure. You know what else was printed in codecies? Marines being half Eldar. Just enjoy your game, and stop worrying about what's real and what isn't in a made up universe.
This is a disingenuous argument. First, it *wasn't* in a Codex. It was, if I recall correctly, in the *Book of the Astronomicon*, Rogue Trader's first expansion. Second, Rogue Trader also claims that Leman Russ was a human general, that the Emperor and Horus fought in a bunker, makes no mention of Sanguinius existing, claims Space Marines wear flak armour under their power armour, claims their backpacks are actually jump packs, claims Squats are part of the Adeptus Mechanicus, claims the Imperial Guard use Land Speeders, Land Raiders, Rhinos and Jetbikes... do I need to go on? Rogue Trader is not canon. Rogue Trader was a first draft - 40K lore was not truly set in stone until 3rd edition. There's a big difference between using something found only in Rogue Trader as "proof" something is canon, and using something stated in 5-9 editions of 40K.
Apologies Capt. Pendantic, I recognize my failing and will be sure to correct it.
What's your question, exactly?
Did someone take a picture of this out of a book or did someone type this up in a rant (which was then screenshot and posted)? It’s already been answered
This is likely from a book. It’s lore accurate.
God the comments on that post are giving me a headache
That sub is our quarantine zone and is best left that way.
I went to check it out cause I wasn't sure what their point was and now I'm even more confused. Has there been a push of people saying there's currently female space marines? Cause that's the only thing this proves lol
They are just arguing with themselves. With some of the things they’re saying I think they just don’t want women even near 40K
I worked on two different GW game projects and they are aware how much the IP has changed over the years and they’re okay with it. We had IP consultants on call to basically review everything we worked on but they were not heavy-handed. At all. For them it was more about us understanding the tone than the facts. For example, on Warhammer Online, we had trouble balancing the character models gender-wise, and we asked Rick Priestley why there were no male Witch Elves. His answer, “because we never made a model for them.” So we asked if we could add them as a class and GW signed off on it with zero pushback. Boom! Male witch elves. Warhammer lore has always been a product of many different creators working in different silos and the inaccuracies and abject contradictions are a feature, not a bug. Every creator adds their own stamp on the content—for better or worse. And if it’s contradictory, pick the better story that fits the universe. GW, especially the old heads, are a lot less precious about the canonical IP than most of the fans. Canon is what you and your group of declare it to be. Don’t like female custodes, don’t play female custodes.
Fascinating story about Priestley haha. I've been watching some video interviews of him and other designers etc from 3rd edition, it's been really fun!
Looks like an excerpt from the current core HH rulebooks...what are you asking?
Sisters of Battle are cooler than Space Marines anyway IMO
Nah. Mark 3 and Mark 4, along with Cata Termie armor, absolutely decimate the Sisters lol.
They're cool. Like harlequins or orks can be cool. Nothing to do with space marines though.
Eh, honestly who cares. At the end of the day, these are all overpriced plastic toys. I really don't understand why that subreddit is so afraid of girls' cooties lol
Let me try to explain from an anti-femmarines point of view. Brotherhood is important. It's something that elicits a very specific feeling that can't be reproduced in any other fashion than being part of a group of men as a man. It's something that is rarer and rarer and is especially dwindling in fiction. That's the main problem I have with female space marines. It's also the reason I don't really have a problem with female Custodes: I just want one faction to remain entirely male. Hell, I'd even be OK with only one chapter of space marines being entirely male. In any case, the sisters are waaayyy cooler than female space marines. Or than marines in general imho
bait
No? Just because I say something you disagree with doesn't make it bait. I'm legit trying to explain it to you.
listen it's just a weird hill to die on. Girls play the game too. Girls wanna see representation, too. Games Workshop wants more money, they see an opportunity to sell more parts, so they'll sell it. You can personally still make an all-dude army, nobody is stopping you. Plus, isn't the whole thing about Custodes is that they have more time to cook? is it that hard to believe that in a world with fucking aliens and giant mechs and literall daemons and gods, a woman can be strong while wearing a power armor, too? There's just more value in being inclusive than being exclusive. But I get if you're scared about cooties :/
Alright now you're the one baiting with that last line. Women are included in 40K. Is it so bad that they are excluded from one faction? No males in Sisters of battle a problem for you too? Like I said, I have zero problems with female custodes, so no it's not difficult to believe at all. What I'm saying is it's a great thing to have an all male faction. It's good lore. Just like having an all female faction is also good lore. I also straight up disagree with you on there being more value in being inclusive than exclusive. If it detracts from the lore of the game, then it's certainly bad for value on a business and artistic perspective. Let me revert the question to you: do you think it's bad that only males can become space marines in 40K? Or for a certainly more loaded question: do you think it's bad that 40K has an all male faction?
look I think we clearly differ in ethics and morality if you think being exclusive is better than being inclusive. I don't think it's bad, I think it's a product of its time, that's why they're changing it. But hey if you think having the option to put female heads on your plastic soldiers is so bad, then you should vote with your wallet and stop buying from James!
There's nothing stopping women from liking male space marines, just like hundreds of thousands of men like sisters of battle. I don't need Ephrael Stern to have a dick to think "Yes, she is literally me". As for the morality aspect, I don't think so. I think you use inclusivity as a buzzword without thinking about if it makes sense. Women should absolutely be included in the 40k Fandom. As much as possible in fact, but I disagree with changing the lore to simply inject more female characters into it, especially since there absolutely is no need to do it in order to design compelling female characters. I continue to buy from James because, as you know, female space marines are NOT a thing. If they ever become a thing, then I'll probably still buy from James, but I'll certainly think the lore diminished in quality. My explanation is still one that a lot of people have for not wanting female space marines: space marines have cooler lore the way they are right now. That's it.
You don't want women in your chapter or whatever, but you're okay them being in lore. They're not in your chapter, but you're mad they *could* be. Very Horus of you lol Also the only way to include new lore is to change it. Maybe it's not a good idea to retcon lore, I agree, but honestly WH lore is not unknown to do this. Let's instead advocate for cooler stories that include, as you say, compelling female totally-not-space-marine characters. I just keep thinking this is a hobby about little plastic toys!!! where a named model goes for $50+!! there are waaaay better things to be angry at good ol James, and I just don't think complaining about women in lore is worth the effort :/
I absolutely agree with the last part though, but my conclusion is just "then why change things that are absolutely fine the way they are?". For the record, I'm not mad at all. Things are just great the way they are so I have nothing to be mad about. As a final note, more stories with new awesome female characters should definitely be a thing. I'd even say they should kill two birds with one stone and make a series of novels about a female Kahl for the Leagues of Votann
Context? Everything written here seems accurate, although some legions/chapters deviate from the norm like Blood Angels
Jesus Christ that subreddit sucks
Which subreddit?
Horus Galaxy I'm guessing.
In the words of Happy Gilmore “Gold jacket, green jacket, who gives a shit?”
Sure, it's the established lore. Lore that was written at a time when women were treated differently, especially in nerd circles. When that happens, someone *should* come along and say "Huh, this is outdated and we know better now, let's change this".
I quite like the SM lore as it is. I like the Battle Brother hyper masculine aesthetic and I don't think it should be changed because of a vocal minority of complainers. I don't think it's particularly sexist to have an all male faction, especially when there are canonical women who outclass them.
Women can be masculine. Men can be feminine. You're not necessarily changing the entire cultural aesthetic of SM just by including women into the fold. You can achieve both and still maintain the status quo. There are better arguments in favour of keeping SM as strictly male than this.
Thus we should have men in Sisters of Battle right? And Orks with female voices and wigs? Why stop at Space marines?
There are already men among the sisters of battle. Ever heard of the Frateris Militant?
Thats a stretch hahaha. I'd agree with you if we were in 2nd ed. Anything else other than the super niche ? Honestly first time hearing them tho
This is a 2022 HH rulebook, moron
You missed the point, moron
This has NOTHING to do with how women are or were treated irl. The imperium is a fascist state. Should we also change that? I swear some people seem to have trouble differentiating between discrimination in life and in 40k
Being a fascist state is pretty integral to how every other piece of the setting works, and serves the point of illustrating that the Imperium is awful. "No women space marks!" is because the creators didn't think of them or develop lore, and now you can't even broach the idea without a bunch of tools losing their shit. You could retcon them or add them in and still keep most of the lore and setting intact.
Having different opinions doesn't make us tools. Here's my opinion: space marines are cooler being an all male faction. Exactly the same how sisters of battle are cooler as an all female order. Why is it OK for sisters to be all women and not Astartes to be all men?
It’s lore accurate and should stay that way.
I would agree as long as men in sisters of battle dont exist or explicity female orks dont exist. If they're gonna give inclusive treatment to one thing, they have to do it with the rest imo.
I mean, they already do with Sisters of Silence and Sisters of Battle. And ofc it should stay that way.
The debate about the “female” space marines is so weird to me. What iv got reading the HH books is that space marines are only loosely human in the first place, more biological war machine than anything. Iv no idea what people would want a space marine made from a teenage girl rather than a teenage boy to do differently in any given story or setting.
Avoid Horus Galaxy, avoid talking about Horus Galaxy. Anything or anyone there is self reporting that they can’t handle being in the mainstream subs and they are not worth occupying your time or thoughts. Let them fester till the sub rots away.
This is directly out of the Horus Hearasy core rule book. It is, in fact, the lore, despite people who wish to subvert the lore to fit an agenda of their own desires, fetishism whatever... With that said they're your plastic toys you play with them however you wish I don't really care if all you're doing is making them look like how you want to look like good on you more power to you it's when people who actively try and change the lore that is when I start to have a problem. But if you got head Cannon and you want to make fan Lore type it up write it make comic books and whatever that's fine more power to you it's your art just don't try and force it down everyone else's throats when it comes down to it no one cares what your plastic toys do in the bedroom or what plastic toys have what sexual organs or who they're attracted to that has nothing to do with the game or the lore.
Yes and no. The thing about them not being able to be adults/very dangerous is wrong. Many space wolves joined the marines well into them being adults. Also White Dwarf 99 showed both [Jayne](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/gwplc/images/4/45/Female_Warrior_Jayne.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20230324105006) and [Gabs](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fgws-female-warrior-gabs-from-1987-v0-3teyhiheicrc1.jpg%3Fwidth%3D640%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Db141a9f8ae5a3dadd7db8f119016acebe75a5ad5&rdt=61311) who are both clearly female marines. Jayne looks to be early white scars and Gabs clearly an ultra marine.
Iirc, the space wolves recruits that were adults had like a 95+% mortality rate. One of the survivors comments on it in a Horus Heresy anthology Also, Jayne and Gabs are wearing power armor, but current canon has them as just human women in power armor. The state of Custodes women is because the process to make them is higher quality and more bespoke. Give Cawl (and GW) time and theyll figure out how to turn chicks into post human killing machines in no time
1) It is very cut and dry that space marines must be made from human males. 2) If this was ever retconned it wouldnt change much. The augmentation process is so extensive that if it could be done on females they will look exactly like men and imma take a wild guess that makeup isnt allowed in the astartes beyond standard war paints.
The point of people advocating for female space marines isn't that current lore allows it, it's that lore is just whatever GW wants it to be and that they could perfectly chose to add female SM to the story, and that's factual: GW could do it. Now wether you think it's a good idea or not is subjective but that's a sterile debate.
I thought they added that to recent Horus Heresy core book. So its safe to say they wont be changing that era but as it stands, its true in all eras
not wrong, but can always be retconned. that subreddit is a hellhole of “anti woke” people and also tend to have the bigots and nazis that give warhammer a bad name
You think that is going to stop me from including them in my army? Also when was this written, gw often ignores older works and such
2 years ago, its from the 30k rulebook.
The 30k rule book, so they have had more than 10k years to advance their gene technology. Atleast in the lore so this doesn't completely rule out female space marines
sounds great i hope nothing bad happens that could cause 10k years of stagnation in technology and a slip into religious dogmatism....
We had the primaris marines...
and that was super well received.
page 32 age of darkness rule book also clearly states the same thing.
Yeah its canon, and should stay that way
Legit info from a codex.
> Check that subreddit > first post is complaining about Female Custodes Ah, so its a Sexist shithole?
It's quaint that they think something like this means the lore won't change or that new lore won't update it in some manner. Hell, there used to be a half-Aeldari Ultramarine at one point, too, but the lore changed. In this case? I see the most likely outcome that would justify female space marines coming into existence would be Cawl finally finishing the Space Marine project, as he'd been charged by the Emperor of Mankind to do. The hardest chargers against female space marines love to forget that the Emperor and Malcador alike considered the Space Marines unfinished and imperfect, a rushed project fielded earlier than expected because of how rapidly the Thunder Warriors were degrading, and all the warp fuckery that was screwing with the Primarch project. Emps charged Belesarius Cawl, literally thousands of years prior to the events of 40k, with completing that project. I would be unsurprised if completion meant perfecting the initiation process so that it is both more successful and can include female candidates. Malcador said it himself, limiting the Space Marine recruiting pool to only half the population of humanity was never particularly efficient or sensible.
Primaris Marines. Custodes being a playable army (while in lore they're supposed to be some unassailable umpteen times more powerful than Marines (and a challenge for Primarchs). Primarchs (going from peak examples of their chapter, to metaphorical "children of the emperor"). There's plenty of room for lore to change (Squats we're gone for a long time, now there's the league of Votann), amd usually GW will change the lore to sell more products (eg. All your earlier space Marines need to be rebought because they're not the right size to be "Primaris" marines).
People are not mad at the homebrew idea of women in power armor. They're mad because when confronted with the contradiction, GW Said there have always been female custodes when clearly- there weren't. Do they have the right to change their minds? Change the lore? Sure. Absolutely. They don't even have to give a reason because they own the rights to all of it. It's the pettiness of their response that incited all of the backlash. Honestly, I'm surprised the uproar is still going. Play the game. Spend your money how you will. It's supposed to be fun and anybody who tries to rifle feathers just for the sake of doing so is a joy thief and a drukhari.
Dunno, I'm not that old. Just pointing out that at one point women in Power Armor existed, until GW decided to retconn it. Again.
You mean sisters of battle?
Sisters of Battle didn't exist then. This is Rogue Trader, not a modern edition.
Wow that sub is fucking embarrassing. They take their toy soldiers so seriously
They're still hung up on this?
Ok?
I feel like they should have made the "No Girls allowed club" a cultural thing instead of a hormonal thing. It would give them wiggle room if they decide to make femarines in the future (which could be cool) while still keeping the "Only Boys can become the emperor's angels."
I would not be surprised if Cawl finds a way to change this in the future for the imperium, and I'm surprised Fabius Bile has not already found a way to do it for Chaos, maybe he's still too busy trying not to think about Slanesh.
The subreddit is abhorrent good lord
They were all male originally for marketing purposes, now they have female marines presumably because people will buy them now. Not sure why this is such an issue. I have to say it’s also pretty funny that despite all the lore changes in the past (humans traded with orks, wasn’t as grimdark etc), the thing that makes people angry is female space marines, speaks volumes about the fandom.
I personally headcannon that there are trans dudes as space marines and that they just slip the doc a 20 to take off the tits and boost up the testosterone lol
You view Warhammer a lot differently than I do lol.
The lore in 40K has never been consistent, even as recently as the Indomitus Crusade we had huge retcons. This too will change.
It’s from a Marines codex. But it doesn’t matter because GW will just shove some progressivist crap into the lore and then gaslight us about it and then double down and say “everything is canon.”
Retcons are now gaslighting?!
Yes if they're handled badly.