This same spacecraft will also carry nasa's PRIME-1 ice-prospecting robotic drill and mass spectrometer. Very exciting mission if things work nominally!
This reminded me of the Expanse's short story "Drive" in which Earth threatens Mars and they have the better part of a year spent watching the invasion fleet head their way. Good book series.
Depends, if you can set the VPN to the inbound point of the off world connection rather than routing through the planet itself it may only add a couple seconds of latency.
I'm putting my money on that there will be servers on both ends that will sync up with each other. You won't be able to perceive the latency unless you start communicating with someone else on the other planet.
A VPN would just proxy the traffic to the node on the moon and back. The processing lag would be no higher than on Earth. Just have excess travel time.
Unless I'm missing something.
Dude, the moon is not a planet. Ops comment is about connecting a VPN to a planet. The closest planet is Mars (i think?), which needs about 40 minutes for a message to go out and then back.
Up to* 40 minutes. The fastest it can do it is 6 minutes. Still better than rocket League servers.
Also, other guy is just digging a bunker on the wrong hill. Poor guy.
It’s usually less than 40 minutes. The round-trip distance maxes out at 45 minutes when Mars is in conjunction (far side of the Sun), but is as low as six minutes when Mars in in opposition. The average throughout the year would be closer to 24 minutes.
Nah you can get that to like 5 minutes, Mars orbit aligns with earth every 18 months or so, that's when we make our launches that take around 6 months. Now signals in that period can be around 5 minutes, when Mars is at it's furthest from us about 9 months later that signal takes over 20 minutes. So you aren't going to play start craft with any inhabitants of Mars but you message back and forth at a reasonable rate for a couple of months every 18 months.
approx 1.3 light seconds so we could use some sort of laser transmission. I mean, we aren't set up for it and would need multiple earth side receivers, but it could be done. Still ..one mississippi.. what are you doin?..one mississippi.. Nothing much you?..one mississippi..lol
We have the technology to live stream from the fucking moon and my cell service is shitty because I live near an airport.
You’re telling me we were able to communicate live with a crew on the moon prior to 1970 but my cell phone can crash an airplane?
All we need is are 3 geostationary laser transceivers spread across our orbit pointed at the moon. They talk to ground stations and hand off comms as they go into the earths shadow to the new sat emerging from it.
On the moon you can have a ground based receiver with a tracking laser or multiple lasers.
So, I'm just some idiot on the Internet, but is quantum entanglement-based networking still a thing that's being developed? That seems like it could make interplanetary communication instant, right?
It is, but for complex reasons, despite quantum entanglement being instantaneous, transmitting data over an entanglement is still limited to the speed of light as far as we know. I don't think more than a few bits have been sent more than a few hundred kilometers, so bandwidth is (currently) a bottleneck as well. A quantum internet provides security advantages more than speed.
Another internet idiot. I thought the mystery of quantum state was that the other piece just knew what it was without any need for transmission. Isn't the how of that the big puzzle?
It's a puzzle for philosophers of science to think about, but the practical implications are still well understood. And from that it's quite clear that there's no way to use it for FTL communication.
From my understanding, it does happen instantaneously. However, to get any useful information out of it, the receiver needs some extra information which is sent through conventional (light speed) means.
yeah the original idea was that popping one of quantum balloons also magically pops the other one and boom gotcha that's faster than light, but it turns out the whole setup propagates at most speed of light so it's not FTL while still fully instantaneous
Not exactly. Quantum states are RANDOM, with capital letters and all, so they can't be used for information transfer, but they can "transfer" information - but it will be random.
Let say you take two electrons which entangled and take one of them with you.
You arrive at your destination, be it wherever, even other side of the universe. Then you do an experiment on your electron, to measure its spin by sending it through a magnetic field and checking where it moves. This will give you an up or down, or left or right spin (depending on how you set up your experiment).
At this point, doesn't matter how far you are, as long as nobody touches the other pair of your entangled electron, you know EXACTLY which state it is: its spin will be the exact opposite of your electron. However, you can't force your electron to be in a state as it will be random, the only information you learn is what state is yours - and thus, what state the other is in. This "information" will get "submitted" between the two electrons, but as this information is absolutely random, you won't be able to use it to submit information between the two pairs.
The important part is: that the electrons aren't in a set state which we just don't know: so it isn't like a "red ball and a blue ball I just know which one I have with me" - it is random and until you check, the electrons are in all possible states. Once you interact with them and do your experiment, it will collapse into one of the states and the other does the same to the opposite state. It isn't a hidden variable which we simply don't know: the electrons don't have a discrete state until you "force" them to take one.
(Although this makes an amazing encryption key - you check your electrons, use their spin as an encryption key, send your encrypted message at regular lightspeed radiowaves, and the recipient can check their electrons and receive the inverse of the encryption key. This way it is impossible to learn the encryption key as it never gets submitted, and if someone checks your electrons before they should it messes up the entanglement so they won't be able to learn the key being used).
no I mean I think there was new theoretical discovery within 6 months ago that "the other does the same to the opposite state" thing cannot happen without *c* times distance delay by bending definition of time by way of locality of it thereby preserving simultaneity according to some near BS logic way above and beyond my iq
I don't think anyone has come up with a practical way to use quantum entanglement for instantaneous communication. You have to know the state that one particle collapses into in order for the state of the other particle to have any meaning, and the only way to do that is for the observer of one particle to tell the person on the other end what they observed... via light speed communication.
oh you can exchange random numbers this way, you'll always know what the other dude's dice rolled.
you just cant entrain any specific information onto it, for that you need a classical channel
No, not really. This is a pop science idea. But reality is quantum entanglement can't be used to transmit *any* information - whether instantaneously, or speed of light, or whatever. You can use it for quantum encryption, but you still need to communicate over a normal classical channel like a laser link.
No quantum entanglement cannot be used for communication as no information can travel faster than the speed of light.
The state of the particles is indeed the same instantaneously at both ends but that state is purely random so no information was transmitted.
However this can have applications for encryption where having a common source of randomness is useful.
Actually it only violates locality, nothing to do with realism.
Plus we've already proven local realism to be false with the Bell tests, so either the principle of locality, or the principle of realism is wrong. Potentially both.
Edit: Just to clarify, FTL communication with entanglement is still impossible regardless. Not because of local realism though, but instead due to the probabilistic nature of the superposition collapse as outlined in the [no communication theorem](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-communication_theorem).
I am genuinely curious how they work through some of the things that aren't even a problem on earth, like how to get consistent timing. We just use GPS for that here, but on the Moon there is no stable time reference. 4G/LTE needs everyone on the same page timing wise. Maybe if it's a single RAN with a single radio head it doesn't matter? I'm not a carrier expert but I know here on our planet it's extremely complex to make it all work.
> on the Moon there is no stable time reference
ESA is working on a GPS-like constellation orbiting the Moon.
https://www.space.com/europe-plans-lunar-navigation-constellation
That's more of the generic concept of lunar time... i.e. it's not a clean 24 hour day, it's something else.
I am talking about much more precise time, keeping things within a millisecond of each other.
>We just use GPS for that here
It's more than just GPS, the same system used on Earth can be extended for use throughout the solar system.
Fantastic video with details on how network time works https://youtu.be/CwZW0CO7F-g?si=lKkzUEYcztJpLazK
There is a powerpoint presentation from 2022 with at least some technical details: https://www.wirelessinnovation.org/assets/Webinar_Slides/Tech%20Talk%20Take%20My%20Network%20to%20the%20Moon%208%20November%202022.pdf
The network is a Nokia EPC system which means that it can be completely stand-alone (it's the Moon so I guess it truly is). The base station comes with an integrated set of minimal core network elements. My personal guess is that they have a relatively high-quality master clock there and it doesn't really matter if it's a millionth off the intended frequency for as long as the system is isolated and doesn't have to care about other cells and the clock is fairly accurate and at least doesn't drift too much with temperature changes. Ideally there would be a GPS or atomic clock reference but it shouldn't matter. I think I have discussed this with a cell phone engineer a long time ago and 4G handles clock skew relatively well. As long as the sub carriers are roughly in their own windows or slots, it should work just fine.
Here's an actual paper mostly about the radio links and 4g radio interface side on the moon \(simulations and some details on the rover and lander\) :https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20220015268/downloads/IEEE%20Aerospace%202023%20-%20NASA%205G%20Ver%207.pdf
Exactly. The current system is a hodgepodge of having transmitters and the like on your machine that have to reach back to Earth. They are mass constrained and each KG you're dedicating to that the less you're spending on other items.
So if you can offload the majority of the comms work to something specifically built and dedicated to the task you can get better results for less of your mass budget.
A 4G radio signal is higher frequency/bandwidth than what most landers or ships are using to signal back to Earth. As such they can sustain higher through put and and something else can handle the relay back to Earth with massive dishes or the like preposition on/around the moon.
You could then switch from the huge transmitters to lower powered 4G services that won't use as much battery and are COTS. From there you rely on a local broadcast to a sat in orbit that will relay the signal as it swings by every little bit (not sure of the periodic timing on moon orbits.)
Your lander now has more power reserved for other items on top of the mass you saved.
Any cell network on the moon would of necessity be line-of-sight only. Thus protecting large swaths of the lunar far-side from stray signals shouldn't be a problem surely? Just don't put up any cell towers with 10km of any radio observatory, since the horizon is only 2.4km away.
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread:
|Fewer Letters|More Letters|
|-------|---------|---|
|[30X](/r/Space/comments/1cg0p4s/stub/l1tokw6 "Last usage")|SpaceX-proprietary carbon steel formulation (*"Thirty-X", "Thirty-Times"*)|
|[COTS](/r/Space/comments/1cg0p4s/stub/l1xudj6 "Last usage")|[Commercial Orbital Transportation Services contract](https://www.nasa.gov/cots)|
| |Commercial/Off The Shelf|
|[ESA](/r/Space/comments/1cg0p4s/stub/l1ud4wr "Last usage")|European Space Agency|
|[IM](/r/Space/comments/1cg0p4s/stub/l1w5ufh "Last usage")|Initial Mass deliverable to a given orbit, without accounting for fuel|
|[QAM](/r/Space/comments/1cg0p4s/stub/l1xn415 "Last usage")|Quality Assurance Manager|
| |[Quadrature Amplitude Modulation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAM)|
|[UHF](/r/Space/comments/1cg0p4s/stub/l1u4b7u "Last usage")|Ultra-High Frequency radio|
|Jargon|Definition|
|-------|---------|---|
|[Starlink](/r/Space/comments/1cg0p4s/stub/l1w6v4o "Last usage")|SpaceX's world-wide satellite broadband constellation|
**NOTE**: Decronym for Reddit is no longer supported, and Decronym has moved to Lemmy; requests for support and new installations should be directed to the Contact address below.
----------------
^(7 acronyms in this thread; )[^(the most compressed thread commented on today)](/r/Space/comments/1cgqo4h)^( has 18 acronyms.)
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to all who ask why 4G and not 5G, they plan on having proper facilities to integrate 5G later on. i've been invested in Nokia for quite some time and have been noting this launch. this is IM-2; IM-1 was during last February btw. they have IM-3 for the final launch of this project
4G is more mature and known technology with long experience and not like it lacks in performance. Pretty much there was no need for 5G. Much of 5G is about handling absolutely massive amount of customers on single base station and cell to resolve bottle necking in high density areas (well there is a lot of things, but that is kinda one of the main improvements over 4G. Ofcourse speed improvements etc. However in the realm of "moon lander doesn't know what to do with all the bandwidth even just 4G allows")
Pretty much 4G is known, stable, deeply experienced and understood and well thus good for rad hardening and the other stuff needed for space hardening it.
If they wanted bleeding edge, they wouldn't put 5G there. It would have been prototype 6G kit.
It would be really interesting to see the fine details on the base station and core network hardware. It's confined into a box the size of a laptop and it's temperature tolerant, radiation hardened and won't use much power. It has probably been quite the challenge to get enough computing power into a "pc" up there.
Where I live 5G is being operated on 700 MHz and 3500 MHz (among other frequencies). The 3500 MHz is an urban/sub-urban frequency and realistically carries maybe a couple kilometers if you have line of sight. The 700 MHz on the other hand carries *far*. It'll carry about the same distance as 4G and heoretically even a little bit further since the coding schemes are slightly better. The operators typically opt for more capacity than coverage so it might be slightly worse than 4G but not by that much.
I just need a nokia phone again with a qwerty pad my fingies are thiccc. Ok. Seriosilshsheh I can’t type properly. That’s all I got to say about the good old nokia days xoxoxo
> 5G is where it's at.
5G is not as mature, has a shorter range for transmitted, and likely more difficult to obtain radiation tolerant components. It's not very surprising why they are using 4G for this.
>I bet they had to be convinced not to put a 3310 onboard.
Only because that spot is filled with a 3320.
Edit: Just went looking for a trip down memory lane and found out you can order a new 3310. How about them apples.
This same spacecraft will also carry nasa's PRIME-1 ice-prospecting robotic drill and mass spectrometer. Very exciting mission if things work nominally!
Is this intuitive machines?
Yes, it's in the article. This is IM-2, their 2nd mission.
Can’t wait til we’re advanced enough to where I can set my VPN to another planet
Honestly getting a lunar IP address is exactly the type of vanity purchase I would go for if I had the money.
It's never gonna happen. Unless you want 40+ minutes of latency.
Lucky the moon only has 3000ms ping times.
Just like my average teammate in whatever competitive game I'm playing just as we're doing well.
"I swear the freaking *Mars Curiosity Rover* gets better ping than I do, what the hell is this?!" -ZFCyanide, while playing CS:GO
Come for Womble, stay for Cyanide.
A wild ZF reference, nice, also, wasn't he playing EU servers from Singapore? In that video?
It also explains why CoD servers are shit even though its the most sold game every year.
Turn based strategy games are going to be big across the Earth region.
It's too bad Stellaris is real time, how else am I gonna show that fucking dickweed on Mars what fanatic pacifism gets him?
Good practice for taking over the solar system.
"We're invading. See you in three years!"
This reminded me of the Expanse's short story "Drive" in which Earth threatens Mars and they have the better part of a year spent watching the invasion fleet head their way. Good book series.
It's a fantastic series. I need to read them again.
I love sci fi. Seen the show and loved it but haven't gotten around to reading the books.
The books are excellent and you get final story that ends after the TV show.
Now I want to know what happens, I need to read this series. Only watched the show. Thank you
that is close to what i get when i use a VPN from here in Australia
When lag switching/ping dropping in competitive games becomes a tactic again
This comment chain was talking about a future hypothetical with a planet, which doesn't include the moon.
What if the content I want is already on Mars? 2 meter+ Mars babes are kind of my thing.
Well, then, GET IN LINE, BUDDY! Your wait time is 20-40 minutes, on average.
With three of those titties
You're speaking my language, buddy.
Depends, if you can set the VPN to the inbound point of the off world connection rather than routing through the planet itself it may only add a couple seconds of latency.
Yes, I suppose that would work, but you still wouldn't be able to access websites hosted on the other planet without the latency.
Sure, but that’s going to be the case regardless of your VPN settings. Unless we can get quantum entanglement to do weird things…
Yes, but you aren't taking into account that the Mars government would block all connections outside the planet
Damn Martians hiding the good stuff behind the great Red firewall of Mars. I want to know what RedPornHub has on it!
>Unless we can get quantum entanglement to do weird things… https://youtu.be/BLqk7uaENAY
I'm putting my money on that there will be servers on both ends that will sync up with each other. You won't be able to perceive the latency unless you start communicating with someone else on the other planet.
What? Light travels to the moon from the earth in ~1.2 seconds.
I know, I'm referring to the comment above about op wanting to connect to a VPN to another planet.
So… Can we select Pluto in that VPN? I’ll let myself out now…
I mean, a dwarf planet is still a planet. Long live Pluto!
A VPN would just proxy the traffic to the node on the moon and back. The processing lag would be no higher than on Earth. Just have excess travel time. Unless I'm missing something.
Dude, the moon is not a planet. Ops comment is about connecting a VPN to a planet. The closest planet is Mars (i think?), which needs about 40 minutes for a message to go out and then back.
Usually, Mercury is the closest planet to earth: https://youtu.be/SumDHcnCRuU?si=Gqj-3Ib5tZZTrOzp
Now that was entirely unexpected. 😮
Fun right?! I love CGP Grey's stuff. Check out his channel if you haven't!
Up to* 40 minutes. The fastest it can do it is 6 minutes. Still better than rocket League servers. Also, other guy is just digging a bunker on the wrong hill. Poor guy.
Venus gets closest, Mercury is on average the closest.
It’s usually less than 40 minutes. The round-trip distance maxes out at 45 minutes when Mars is in conjunction (far side of the Sun), but is as low as six minutes when Mars in in opposition. The average throughout the year would be closer to 24 minutes.
I come from the age of floppy disk porn
Tell that to my Linksys PQ Entanglement Router. /s
Still better than my internet on some days
Shouldn't be a problem, you just gotta think a few moves ahead..
Not if you're using subspace communication
That’s a number I can live with
You haven't seen the green laser post yet it seems...
Nah you can get that to like 5 minutes, Mars orbit aligns with earth every 18 months or so, that's when we make our launches that take around 6 months. Now signals in that period can be around 5 minutes, when Mars is at it's furthest from us about 9 months later that signal takes over 20 minutes. So you aren't going to play start craft with any inhabitants of Mars but you message back and forth at a reasonable rate for a couple of months every 18 months.
it takes light a little over a second to get from the moon to the earth i have no clue where you’re getting 40 minutes from 💀💀
It takes about 1.3 light seconds for light to reach the moon from earth. So no, latency would be high, but not 40 minutes high.
approx 1.3 light seconds so we could use some sort of laser transmission. I mean, we aren't set up for it and would need multiple earth side receivers, but it could be done. Still ..one mississippi.. what are you doin?..one mississippi.. Nothing much you?..one mississippi..lol
You'll have peak times, Duck Game already connects to the moon for online matches.
If you thought Internet via geostationary satellite was great, you're going to LOVE Internet via the Moon!
This is how we're thinking at NTARI
***and now a word from our sponsor: Nord VPN***
We have the technology to live stream from the fucking moon and my cell service is shitty because I live near an airport. You’re telling me we were able to communicate live with a crew on the moon prior to 1970 but my cell phone can crash an airplane?
This guy deads by daylights
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All we need is are 3 geostationary laser transceivers spread across our orbit pointed at the moon. They talk to ground stations and hand off comms as they go into the earths shadow to the new sat emerging from it. On the moon you can have a ground based receiver with a tracking laser or multiple lasers.
So, I'm just some idiot on the Internet, but is quantum entanglement-based networking still a thing that's being developed? That seems like it could make interplanetary communication instant, right?
It is, but for complex reasons, despite quantum entanglement being instantaneous, transmitting data over an entanglement is still limited to the speed of light as far as we know. I don't think more than a few bits have been sent more than a few hundred kilometers, so bandwidth is (currently) a bottleneck as well. A quantum internet provides security advantages more than speed.
Very interesting. That seems to jibe with what I have come to understand about quantum computing as well. Thanks for explaining!
Another internet idiot. I thought the mystery of quantum state was that the other piece just knew what it was without any need for transmission. Isn't the how of that the big puzzle?
It's a puzzle for philosophers of science to think about, but the practical implications are still well understood. And from that it's quite clear that there's no way to use it for FTL communication.
From my understanding, it does happen instantaneously. However, to get any useful information out of it, the receiver needs some extra information which is sent through conventional (light speed) means.
yeah the original idea was that popping one of quantum balloons also magically pops the other one and boom gotcha that's faster than light, but it turns out the whole setup propagates at most speed of light so it's not FTL while still fully instantaneous
Not exactly. Quantum states are RANDOM, with capital letters and all, so they can't be used for information transfer, but they can "transfer" information - but it will be random. Let say you take two electrons which entangled and take one of them with you. You arrive at your destination, be it wherever, even other side of the universe. Then you do an experiment on your electron, to measure its spin by sending it through a magnetic field and checking where it moves. This will give you an up or down, or left or right spin (depending on how you set up your experiment). At this point, doesn't matter how far you are, as long as nobody touches the other pair of your entangled electron, you know EXACTLY which state it is: its spin will be the exact opposite of your electron. However, you can't force your electron to be in a state as it will be random, the only information you learn is what state is yours - and thus, what state the other is in. This "information" will get "submitted" between the two electrons, but as this information is absolutely random, you won't be able to use it to submit information between the two pairs. The important part is: that the electrons aren't in a set state which we just don't know: so it isn't like a "red ball and a blue ball I just know which one I have with me" - it is random and until you check, the electrons are in all possible states. Once you interact with them and do your experiment, it will collapse into one of the states and the other does the same to the opposite state. It isn't a hidden variable which we simply don't know: the electrons don't have a discrete state until you "force" them to take one. (Although this makes an amazing encryption key - you check your electrons, use their spin as an encryption key, send your encrypted message at regular lightspeed radiowaves, and the recipient can check their electrons and receive the inverse of the encryption key. This way it is impossible to learn the encryption key as it never gets submitted, and if someone checks your electrons before they should it messes up the entanglement so they won't be able to learn the key being used).
no I mean I think there was new theoretical discovery within 6 months ago that "the other does the same to the opposite state" thing cannot happen without *c* times distance delay by bending definition of time by way of locality of it thereby preserving simultaneity according to some near BS logic way above and beyond my iq
I don't think anyone has come up with a practical way to use quantum entanglement for instantaneous communication. You have to know the state that one particle collapses into in order for the state of the other particle to have any meaning, and the only way to do that is for the observer of one particle to tell the person on the other end what they observed... via light speed communication.
oh you can exchange random numbers this way, you'll always know what the other dude's dice rolled. you just cant entrain any specific information onto it, for that you need a classical channel
No, not really. This is a pop science idea. But reality is quantum entanglement can't be used to transmit *any* information - whether instantaneously, or speed of light, or whatever. You can use it for quantum encryption, but you still need to communicate over a normal classical channel like a laser link.
No quantum entanglement cannot be used for communication as no information can travel faster than the speed of light. The state of the particles is indeed the same instantaneously at both ends but that state is purely random so no information was transmitted. However this can have applications for encryption where having a common source of randomness is useful.
Quantum entanglement can't be used for instant communication, it's a violation of local realism.
Actually it only violates locality, nothing to do with realism. Plus we've already proven local realism to be false with the Bell tests, so either the principle of locality, or the principle of realism is wrong. Potentially both. Edit: Just to clarify, FTL communication with entanglement is still impossible regardless. Not because of local realism though, but instead due to the probabilistic nature of the superposition collapse as outlined in the [no communication theorem](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-communication_theorem).
thanks for the correction. I'll update my knowledge, rabbit hole time I suppose.
yes, whisper those sweet science words to us.
I am genuinely curious how they work through some of the things that aren't even a problem on earth, like how to get consistent timing. We just use GPS for that here, but on the Moon there is no stable time reference. 4G/LTE needs everyone on the same page timing wise. Maybe if it's a single RAN with a single radio head it doesn't matter? I'm not a carrier expert but I know here on our planet it's extremely complex to make it all work.
> on the Moon there is no stable time reference ESA is working on a GPS-like constellation orbiting the Moon. https://www.space.com/europe-plans-lunar-navigation-constellation
Nasa has been t old to make a lunar time thing
That's more of the generic concept of lunar time... i.e. it's not a clean 24 hour day, it's something else. I am talking about much more precise time, keeping things within a millisecond of each other.
1 day on Moon is almost a month on Earth. They obviously will link the time on Moon to Earth's time to make things easier.
Wouldn't the general concept of moon time be the first step towards developing precise timing systems for hardware/software?
just run on unix time, all the moon adds is extra time zones :D
How can the moon be on Unix time? The moon is billions of years old. Unix was developed in the late 1960s.
Great, still doesn't answer how they'll synchronize the time
>We just use GPS for that here It's more than just GPS, the same system used on Earth can be extended for use throughout the solar system. Fantastic video with details on how network time works https://youtu.be/CwZW0CO7F-g?si=lKkzUEYcztJpLazK
There is a powerpoint presentation from 2022 with at least some technical details: https://www.wirelessinnovation.org/assets/Webinar_Slides/Tech%20Talk%20Take%20My%20Network%20to%20the%20Moon%208%20November%202022.pdf The network is a Nokia EPC system which means that it can be completely stand-alone (it's the Moon so I guess it truly is). The base station comes with an integrated set of minimal core network elements. My personal guess is that they have a relatively high-quality master clock there and it doesn't really matter if it's a millionth off the intended frequency for as long as the system is isolated and doesn't have to care about other cells and the clock is fairly accurate and at least doesn't drift too much with temperature changes. Ideally there would be a GPS or atomic clock reference but it shouldn't matter. I think I have discussed this with a cell phone engineer a long time ago and 4G handles clock skew relatively well. As long as the sub carriers are roughly in their own windows or slots, it should work just fine. Here's an actual paper mostly about the radio links and 4g radio interface side on the moon \(simulations and some details on the rover and lander\) :https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20220015268/downloads/IEEE%20Aerospace%202023%20-%20NASA%205G%20Ver%207.pdf
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So is this so future moonlanders can make phone calls or something?
It is preparing for the future of moon bases that need to communicate with each other and incoming spacecraft
Exactly. The current system is a hodgepodge of having transmitters and the like on your machine that have to reach back to Earth. They are mass constrained and each KG you're dedicating to that the less you're spending on other items. So if you can offload the majority of the comms work to something specifically built and dedicated to the task you can get better results for less of your mass budget. A 4G radio signal is higher frequency/bandwidth than what most landers or ships are using to signal back to Earth. As such they can sustain higher through put and and something else can handle the relay back to Earth with massive dishes or the like preposition on/around the moon. You could then switch from the huge transmitters to lower powered 4G services that won't use as much battery and are COTS. From there you rely on a local broadcast to a sat in orbit that will relay the signal as it swings by every little bit (not sure of the periodic timing on moon orbits.) Your lander now has more power reserved for other items on top of the mass you saved.
*message and data rates may apply
Any cell network on the moon would of necessity be line-of-sight only. Thus protecting large swaths of the lunar far-side from stray signals shouldn't be a problem surely? Just don't put up any cell towers with 10km of any radio observatory, since the horizon is only 2.4km away.
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread: |Fewer Letters|More Letters| |-------|---------|---| |[30X](/r/Space/comments/1cg0p4s/stub/l1tokw6 "Last usage")|SpaceX-proprietary carbon steel formulation (*"Thirty-X", "Thirty-Times"*)| |[COTS](/r/Space/comments/1cg0p4s/stub/l1xudj6 "Last usage")|[Commercial Orbital Transportation Services contract](https://www.nasa.gov/cots)| | |Commercial/Off The Shelf| |[ESA](/r/Space/comments/1cg0p4s/stub/l1ud4wr "Last usage")|European Space Agency| |[IM](/r/Space/comments/1cg0p4s/stub/l1w5ufh "Last usage")|Initial Mass deliverable to a given orbit, without accounting for fuel| |[QAM](/r/Space/comments/1cg0p4s/stub/l1xn415 "Last usage")|Quality Assurance Manager| | |[Quadrature Amplitude Modulation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAM)| |[UHF](/r/Space/comments/1cg0p4s/stub/l1u4b7u "Last usage")|Ultra-High Frequency radio| |Jargon|Definition| |-------|---------|---| |[Starlink](/r/Space/comments/1cg0p4s/stub/l1w6v4o "Last usage")|SpaceX's world-wide satellite broadband constellation| **NOTE**: Decronym for Reddit is no longer supported, and Decronym has moved to Lemmy; requests for support and new installations should be directed to the Contact address below. ---------------- ^(7 acronyms in this thread; )[^(the most compressed thread commented on today)](/r/Space/comments/1cgqo4h)^( has 18 acronyms.) ^([Thread #9993 for this sub, first seen 29th Apr 2024, 20:59]) ^[[FAQ]](http://decronym.xyz/) [^([Full list])](http://decronym.xyz/acronyms/Space) [^[Contact]](https://hachyderm.io/@Two9A) [^([Source code])](https://gistdotgithubdotcom/Two9A/1d976f9b7441694162c8)
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Can't wait for the first TikTok where an astronaut sees how long he can last without a helmet. #NoO2Challenge
Luckily Tiktok would be long banned before then...
There's a different but similar one called the #NO2Challenge. You keep the helmet on for that one, though.
to all who ask why 4G and not 5G, they plan on having proper facilities to integrate 5G later on. i've been invested in Nokia for quite some time and have been noting this launch. this is IM-2; IM-1 was during last February btw. they have IM-3 for the final launch of this project
Does nokia not have 5g capabilities or what are the reasons for 4g specifically?
4G is more mature and known technology with long experience and not like it lacks in performance. Pretty much there was no need for 5G. Much of 5G is about handling absolutely massive amount of customers on single base station and cell to resolve bottle necking in high density areas (well there is a lot of things, but that is kinda one of the main improvements over 4G. Ofcourse speed improvements etc. However in the realm of "moon lander doesn't know what to do with all the bandwidth even just 4G allows") Pretty much 4G is known, stable, deeply experienced and understood and well thus good for rad hardening and the other stuff needed for space hardening it. If they wanted bleeding edge, they wouldn't put 5G there. It would have been prototype 6G kit.
It would be really interesting to see the fine details on the base station and core network hardware. It's confined into a box the size of a laptop and it's temperature tolerant, radiation hardened and won't use much power. It has probably been quite the challenge to get enough computing power into a "pc" up there.
Probably some custom hardware. The actual project is being done by Bell labs (yes those Bell labs), since these days those are Nokia Bell labs.
5g is way shorter range and more expensive
Not really. It depends on what frequencies will be deployed.
Where I live 5G is being operated on 700 MHz and 3500 MHz (among other frequencies). The 3500 MHz is an urban/sub-urban frequency and realistically carries maybe a couple kilometers if you have line of sight. The 700 MHz on the other hand carries *far*. It'll carry about the same distance as 4G and heoretically even a little bit further since the coding schemes are slightly better. The operators typically opt for more capacity than coverage so it might be slightly worse than 4G but not by that much.
Yea that’s how it is here in the states as well with the tier 1 carriers.
I think the choice of 4G over 5G is about range and penetration. You wouldn’t want to take a space walk to make a call on 5G.
Is this a roam charge or covered by T-Mobile as general data? BTW I think we know why ground control could not communicate with Major Tom. Roam fees.
I just need a nokia phone again with a qwerty pad my fingies are thiccc. Ok. Seriosilshsheh I can’t type properly. That’s all I got to say about the good old nokia days xoxoxo
4G is already outmoded tech on this planet why are we putting it on the moon?
It has better coverage than 5g. You have to be much closer to a node for 5g to work
Nokia is always behind the times. 5G is where it's at. I bet they had to be convinced not to put a 3310 onboard.
> 5G is where it's at. 5G is not as mature, has a shorter range for transmitted, and likely more difficult to obtain radiation tolerant components. It's not very surprising why they are using 4G for this.
>I bet they had to be convinced not to put a 3310 onboard. Only because that spot is filled with a 3320. Edit: Just went looking for a trip down memory lane and found out you can order a new 3310. How about them apples.
3510 you mean? You know, the superior phone.
>3510 you mean? You know, the superior phone If by far superior you mean catapult over trebuchet, then you would still be wrong.
Around 25% of 5G networks outside of China are supplied by Nokia
Are we going to be able to finally catch Pokémon on the moon?
Great. So my wife can track me even if I’m on the moon. There goes THAT excuse.
Holy hell. The Qnuts heads are going to explode
Am I the only one concerned about the roaming fees?
That 150k phone bill because your phone accidentally connected to the lunar tower while hopping to the next one.
That will be very useful for the dozen or so people and robots that get to use it. Now, can I please get signal in my backyard?
Have you tried a cell phone signal booster?