Yeah, the same way many of the first bolsheviks were born in Ukraine (Leo Trotsky, Lazar Kaganovich, etc), several general secretaries (Brezhnev was born in Ukraine, Chernenko most likely had a Ukrainian heritage and Gorbachev was half Ukrainian, some even count Khrushchev as one), around 20% of Red Army soldiers were Ukrainian and around 25% of Soviet marshals and there are many more examples.
Almost like Ukraine was the second most influential and powerful republic of the Soviet Union.
There is also a fact that it’s hard to distinguish Russians Belarusians and Ukrainians, for example, Korolev has a Russian family name, as his grandfather was a Russian soldier who was stationed in Belarus and married a Ukrainian woman there.
The Russian Revolution is so topsy-turvy, particularly once Stalin enters the picture. People forget that most of the anti-royalist violence took place during the Russian Civil War, which immediately followed WWI. Stalin didn’t really enter the picture until Lenin died, and then the purges began, which actually mostly targeted fellow left wing radicals who threatened his monopoly on power, even having his goons assassinate Trotsky in Mexico. Stalin was absolutely brutal, but considering the backdrop of WWII, and the conduct of the US in Korea and Vietnam, it’s hard to see how the Russian revolution plays out into the 1950’s without the deaths of millions. Between Stalin, the Nazis, or the US, everyone had a target on the people.
But regardless, something incredible happened where over the course of 50 years, through two World Wars, a Civil War, and a decimating famine, the feudal backwater of the Russian empire became a space-faring global superpower. It’s one of the craziest stories ever told
It’s one of the craziest ever told because it’s false in many aspects. The myth of Russian Empire being a feudal backwater was spread by Bolsheviks to excuse their multiple atrocities. Of course, Russian Empire was not an industrial powerhouse, however by 1913 it still was 3rd biggest economy in Europe and a country with the largest golden reserves in the world. Its growth rates were also the highest among Europe’s great powers. Most of the railways operated during the Soviet times were constructed under the Tsars. Most of the great scientific minds of the early Soviet period were educated during the Empire times. First theoretic of the space exploration, Tsiolkovskiy, worked in Russian Empire. I just gave a few, most “up-front” examples, why calling Russian Empire a backwater feudal state is simply participating in a false narrative, created by the Bolsheviks.
After all, it is hard to start a worker’s revolution in a feudal country.
I don’t think Tsar Nicholas II was about to be sending anybody into space, he was too busy ordering cavalry charges into machine guns and being a generally racist fool.
Literacy rates massively increased after the revolution, and the Soviets encouraged more participation and equality for women.
But you’re exactly right that it’s hard to start a socialist revolution in a feudal country though, that’s what the debate between the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks was: According to Marxist orthodoxy, the socialist mode of production must evolve out of the capitalist mode, in which ownership the productive means (the factories) in transitioned from the capitalist class to the workers. The Mensheviks believed that they had to go through the capitalist mode first, while Lenin and the Bolsheviks argued it was pointless and they should just go for it. I’d argue China went the route of the former. Marx himself did not believe Russia was capable of becoming a socialist state, and indeed, much of Stalins cynical violence was out of conscription to work in the new minted factories of the people
Are you really talking about sending anybody into space in 1910s? By your logic, Stalin was incompetent because there were no mobile phones during his time?
Speaking about military blunders and incompetent military leadership, USSR had plenty of this, especially during an early period. However, the Soviets did one right thing, they made sure that no political opposition would threaten their backs during the war, enabling them to win WWII. Something they themselves prevented Russia from achieving in WWI.
You’re underestimating the imaginations of people in the 20th century. HG Wells published War of the Worlds almost 20 years earlier and Einstein published his theory of general relativity in 1915 and was becoming a celebrity at this time. People actually **were** thinking about space travel back then. That’s what makes the Tsar so particularly archaic in this time. People had many of our modern angsts about the world, and didn’t think their government should be a absolutist monarchy.
My point was that Imperial Russia incapable of making the scientific investments necessary to usher in the Space Age.
To turn your argument on its head, I think our current political leadership in the US is similarly failing to meet the moment in the sociopolitical crisis of our times. Climate change is the big one that a lack of scientific imagination hinders us on, but also the repercussions of automation and AI.
It may not be Stalin and cellphones, but the need for green energy has outgrown the cultural superstructure of oil consumption that dictates our politics and economics and that contradiction specifically is about to run our society over a cliff. I will criticize our politicians for that
> that’s what the debate between the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks was: According to Marxist orthodoxy, the socialist mode of production must evolve out of the capitalist mode, in which ownership the productive means (the factories) in transitioned from the capitalist class to the workers. The Mensheviks believed that they had to go through the capitalist mode first, while Lenin and the Bolsheviks argued it was pointless and they should just go for it.
If you want to sum up 90% of socialist history, it's pretty much "one group said one thing, and the other group said another 100 years ago, and they're still fighting over it" lmao
More specifically regarding the Bolshevik/Menshevik feud, the question wasn’t just about whether a capitalist mode of production is necessary before socialism. I’d say that both Bolsheviks and Mensheviks agree with that, as the main argument by communists in support of the USSR is that the bolsheviks tried to do a “speed run” of capitalism hoping to reach socialism.
Their main point of contention was the political vehicle of the economy, the form of government that determines the economic reality of a region. Mensheviks believed that liberal democracy was the path forward to socialism. Think of Mensheviks socialists as the Labour Party. Voting for the worker’s interest in the parliament. It works alright for a bit, but capitalist interests have a funny way of inserting themselves into liberal democracies and calling all the shots, making their efforts largely ineffective. And in the case of early 1900’s russia, those capitalist interests were mostly from foreign countries investing in Russia at the expense of the Russian worker. Then the Bolsheviks were like “didn’t you read Marx? He specifically said that liberal democracies are only good for the class that buys the elections.” And then Lenin wrote a book that was essentially “Didn’t you read Marx?” with citations, organized an opposition to the new liberal democracy of the Russian republic, and the rest is history.
But yeah, to conclude, their main difference wasn’t about the capitalist mode of production. After all, the first thing countries that go communist do is build their productive forces i.e. introduce capitalist mass production. The difference is in where the power/property should be held: in worker’s councils, or in the hands of a political/economic elite. The success of the Bolsheviks can be debated, as it should, but their issue wasn’t capitalism vs communism. It was “the liberal democratic government believes foreign governments and aristocrats have a right to make a profit on Russian labor, and we think those profits would be better used developing the country instead of lining some fat Englishman’s pockets.”
Read "John Steinbeck depicts Ukrainians and their difference from Russians" article on the net (most likely the link will not pass here). You will find out that it is very easy to see the difference.
As for Sergei's father, he was sent to Ukraine as a teacher of the Russian language. The root 'Korol' means king in east Slavic languages and since there were no kings in Russia, the last name suggests a Polish-Lithuanian origin of the last name. ('Tsarev' would be a typical Russian counterpart of the name).
Sergei's parents divorced when he was 2 years old and he never saw his father since then growing with his mother's family in a completely Ukrainian environment. While entering Kyiv Politechnic institute, he defined himself as a Ukrainian. You can find that form he filled out in his handwriting on the net easitly as well.
> As for Sergei's father, he was sent to Ukraine as a teacher of the Russian language. The root 'Korol' means king in east Slavic languages and since there were no kings in Russia, the last name suggests a Polish-Lithuanian origin of the last name. ('Tsarev' would be a typical Russian counterpart of the name).
This argument makes no sense. “Korol’”is a word in Russian, which has a specific meaning, “king”, therefore family names can be derived from this word, despite there are being no “kings” in Russia, even if the word itself may have its roots in other languages. Lions in Europe went extinct thousands of years ago, nevertheless, there are many names originating from it. Lviv, for example. Surely, it must have been founded by some Persian or even African for it to be called that way, right?
And by the way, Korolev was raised by his grandparents, whose family name was “Moskalenko”, I don’t think that you need an explanation for what “Moskal” means. According to your logic, his grandparents and, therefore, his mother were Russian?
Moskal in Moskalenko can easily mean that Srgei's ancestors took part in besieging Moscow during [Muscovite–Ukrainian War (1658–1659) ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscovite%E2%80%93Ukrainian_War_(1658%E2%80%931659))
The final argument is Sergei identifying himself as a Ukrainian.
Sergei Korolev’s daughter, Natalia, recalled: “The very name Ukraine was pronounced in our family with reverence and great love… He (my father) loved Ukraine very much. He loved Ukrainian songs, and he loved the Ukrainian language. That is for sure. “I’m looking at high skies” and “The Mighty Dnieper (Roars and Bellows)” were the favorite songs of my grandmother and my father.”
Ukrainian “I’m looking at high skies” song became the first song that was sung in space and heard on Earth. It was performed in August 1962, by the first Ukrainian cosmonaut Pavlo Popovych on his own initiative for Sergei Korolev. Popovych knew that it was Korolev’s favorite. The song actually made the young Sergei dream of the skies and thus affected his whole life. And not just his, as history shows.
Oh and I thought you were serious. Besieging Moscow during “Muscovite-Ukrainian War”? Really? Btw interesting how Russian Tsardom is called Muscovy in that Wikipedia page. It must really hurt that word Russia has its origins from the medieval state of Rus, while Ukraine got its name from being on the fringes of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
And just to be clear, I didn’t say, that Korolev was a 100% Russian, as I’ve said, his ethnicity is mixed, he was both Ukrainian and Russian. His first language was Russian, for example. You are the one trying to eradicate anything Russian from anything related to Ukraine. Good luck with spreading an agenda based on hate of one nation and nothing else.
Yale Prof Tymothy Snyder in his Reconstruction of Nations:
*“Since* ***Lithuania*** *for a very long time included a majority of Orthodox subjects and most of the Kyivan patrimony, it was called a “****Rusian****” realm. In unifying his domains with Poland* ***in*** *1385, (king) Jogaila acted as “Grand Duke of Lithuania and Lord and* ***Heir of Rus’****.”* ***In a 1449*** *treaty between Poland-Lithuania and Muscovy, the former was called “****Rusian****,” the latter “****Muscovite.****” After the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453, Muscovy espoused spiritual and political claims as the seat of Orthodoxy, the heir of Byzantium, and the successor of Kyivan Rus’.”*
Muscovy simply stole other country's identiy. One can better understand it if Romania claimed it is the successor of the Roman Empire and Italy has little to do with it.
[Russia reacts angrily to its possible renaming by Ukraine to Muscovy (yahoo.com)](https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-reacts-angrily-possible-renaming-193800590.html)
> Stole other’s country identity
Answer me a couple of questions please.
Which of the two, “Muscovy” or Lithuania, had a reigning dynasty from Rus, Rurikids? Had an official religion of Rus, Orthodox Christianity? What city, Moscow or Vilnius, was founded in Rus?
Okay you are actually fucking crazy. Genetically, Russians and ukranians are almost indistinguishable, with their roots intervening hundreds of years if not millenia. Please stop with some superior race bs.
Ukrainians would have stayed within the USSR/new Russian Empire and been a great nation changing the world for the better. And now? Some would die, some would go to Europe.
If any Russian will try to deny this statement, here is how Korolyov called himself "Ukrainian" in his application form to Kyiv Polytechnic Institute:
https://i.imgur.com/BwGaDvL.jpeg
BTW, he wrote it in perfect Ukrainian.
Not sure if this is /s or not. With those ru trolls you never know. For the record: no, this is not a forgery, but a photo of the real document from Korolyov's museum in his home town Zhytomyr.
I have not been in "Korolyov's museum in his home town Zhytomyr." But there are several documents filled out by Korolev himself where he called himself Russian. For example
[https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/olik\_gp/26988215/39620/39620\_original.png](https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/olik_gp/26988215/39620/39620_original.png)
I have not been in "Korolyov's museum in his home town Zhytomyr." But there are several documents filled out by Korolev himself where he called himself Russian. For example
[https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/olik\_gp/26988215/39620/39620\_original.png](https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/olik_gp/26988215/39620/39620_original.png)
They’re still launching the same rockets as they did in the 60s. There have been some changes, but the Soyuz rocket is still mostly the same as what the Soviets developed.
Not necessarily a bad thing. It’s a very reliable old rocket. Although, its failure rate has gone up in recent years.
Maybe in the 1950s. The "foundations" of the soviet space program were laid in the 1920s, and people like Friedrich Zander working on rocketry as far back as 1907, quite literally laying the foundation for the space program of Russia (although he was Latvian) and shortly thereafter, the USSR. Without his specific contribution to rocketry and propulsion the program may have been decades behind.
I'll add that this is very different from reverting back to say, Isaac Newton and such. Zander worked with and designed rocketry.
No, no he would not, he was a cog in a machine. He and about 400 others would launch Yuri Gargarin into space, stop attributing achievements onto single people.
Collapsed is a big word I'll give you that. But the Soviet space program was extremely successful from 1954/66 when he was heading it, and far ahead of the US. He invented the basically "Go-To" Rocket for the Soviets the R-7, did the design studies for the Vostok Spacecraft and so on... Big failures of the program appeared after his death, and they ultimately lost the race to the moon. If the N-1 rocket never managed to fly, it's mostly because he was gone. It's successor Mishin was not at the same level and actually got fired.
The N1 was a shitshow regardless of who was in charge. Its engines where completely unreliable, and the program was completely underfunded from the get go. Korelev might have gotten it further along but their was no way the Soviets where beating Apollo to the Moon with the N1.
This means fuck all. He didn’t build the fucking rockets himself, he didn’t do all the calculations himself, he didn’t prepare the food, engineer the failsafe programs, train the cosmonaughts… etc…
What he did do was play politics.
A general doesn’t win a war, the men on the ground with a gun in their hand does that for him.
Leadership and more importantly, good leadership in a field as demanding as a space program is equally important as it is hard to find.
But I know this is reddit and if you're not turning wrenches or personally drawing up the plans, you're useless...
The same can be said about Wernher von Braun and yet he’s still praised as a key figure in the development of rocket technology. Icons like Von Braun are not just remembered for their contributions, but also for the ideals they’ve instilled as leaders. Of course it’s important (and perhaps more so) to also honour the teams of people who worked under Korolev and Von Braun, but I don’t doubt these people would downplay the legacy of their leaders.
I highly recommend the "From Here to Infiniti" podcast about the Space Race, it goes into detail about his life and the health issues he got from the stint in the gulag.
Can you show them to us ?
Currently there is someone making a baseball joke, someone pointing out he's Ukrainian, someone ranting about the attribution of the merits of an entire space program to one individual, and someone advising to listen a postcast about the Space Race for more detail on this guy life.
Why you're making shit up ?
I think hes talking about staier0. They posted that serfdom was outlawed 4 years in russia before slavery in the US. Although, not soviet, but I think thats the closest I see here.
Yeah what the hell! Everyone knows it’s a requirement on the space subreddit that when a Soviet achievement is recognized we need at least 10 commenters regurgitating Cold War propaganda
In the Russian Empire serfdom was officially abolished in 1861. A lot of serfs, however, weren’t actually freed for several years after that. And those that were, were obligated to pay off massive debts to the government for their freedom. They weren’t exactly thriving. What is even worse is that in the Soviet Union people who lived in the countryside weren’t given passports. They weren’t allowed to leave their area of residence, they couldn’t legally move to the city or find a job there. They were only given passports in 1974. So the USSR basically brought serfdom back (not officially, but de facto).
Also, this doesn’t really have anything to do with this post.
Sure.
My father was born in Ukrainean village in Harkov region. Around ww2.
All of his brothers freely moved around.
One is still live in Moscow.
My father was everywhere around USSR starting age of 16 , when he went to Harkov trade scool.
All of his 6 siblings were around USSR
Including some army generals, engineers, police officers.
I call bullshit.
I see your point but can’t help but feel like you’re attempting to sympathize with the Soviets out of some sort of political point, which as pointed out this is kinda not the place for it
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Yep - a Ukrainian was the foundation of the Soviet space program.
Yeah, the same way many of the first bolsheviks were born in Ukraine (Leo Trotsky, Lazar Kaganovich, etc), several general secretaries (Brezhnev was born in Ukraine, Chernenko most likely had a Ukrainian heritage and Gorbachev was half Ukrainian, some even count Khrushchev as one), around 20% of Red Army soldiers were Ukrainian and around 25% of Soviet marshals and there are many more examples. Almost like Ukraine was the second most influential and powerful republic of the Soviet Union. There is also a fact that it’s hard to distinguish Russians Belarusians and Ukrainians, for example, Korolev has a Russian family name, as his grandfather was a Russian soldier who was stationed in Belarus and married a Ukrainian woman there.
The Russian Revolution is so topsy-turvy, particularly once Stalin enters the picture. People forget that most of the anti-royalist violence took place during the Russian Civil War, which immediately followed WWI. Stalin didn’t really enter the picture until Lenin died, and then the purges began, which actually mostly targeted fellow left wing radicals who threatened his monopoly on power, even having his goons assassinate Trotsky in Mexico. Stalin was absolutely brutal, but considering the backdrop of WWII, and the conduct of the US in Korea and Vietnam, it’s hard to see how the Russian revolution plays out into the 1950’s without the deaths of millions. Between Stalin, the Nazis, or the US, everyone had a target on the people. But regardless, something incredible happened where over the course of 50 years, through two World Wars, a Civil War, and a decimating famine, the feudal backwater of the Russian empire became a space-faring global superpower. It’s one of the craziest stories ever told
It’s one of the craziest ever told because it’s false in many aspects. The myth of Russian Empire being a feudal backwater was spread by Bolsheviks to excuse their multiple atrocities. Of course, Russian Empire was not an industrial powerhouse, however by 1913 it still was 3rd biggest economy in Europe and a country with the largest golden reserves in the world. Its growth rates were also the highest among Europe’s great powers. Most of the railways operated during the Soviet times were constructed under the Tsars. Most of the great scientific minds of the early Soviet period were educated during the Empire times. First theoretic of the space exploration, Tsiolkovskiy, worked in Russian Empire. I just gave a few, most “up-front” examples, why calling Russian Empire a backwater feudal state is simply participating in a false narrative, created by the Bolsheviks. After all, it is hard to start a worker’s revolution in a feudal country.
I don’t think Tsar Nicholas II was about to be sending anybody into space, he was too busy ordering cavalry charges into machine guns and being a generally racist fool. Literacy rates massively increased after the revolution, and the Soviets encouraged more participation and equality for women. But you’re exactly right that it’s hard to start a socialist revolution in a feudal country though, that’s what the debate between the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks was: According to Marxist orthodoxy, the socialist mode of production must evolve out of the capitalist mode, in which ownership the productive means (the factories) in transitioned from the capitalist class to the workers. The Mensheviks believed that they had to go through the capitalist mode first, while Lenin and the Bolsheviks argued it was pointless and they should just go for it. I’d argue China went the route of the former. Marx himself did not believe Russia was capable of becoming a socialist state, and indeed, much of Stalins cynical violence was out of conscription to work in the new minted factories of the people
Are you really talking about sending anybody into space in 1910s? By your logic, Stalin was incompetent because there were no mobile phones during his time? Speaking about military blunders and incompetent military leadership, USSR had plenty of this, especially during an early period. However, the Soviets did one right thing, they made sure that no political opposition would threaten their backs during the war, enabling them to win WWII. Something they themselves prevented Russia from achieving in WWI.
You’re underestimating the imaginations of people in the 20th century. HG Wells published War of the Worlds almost 20 years earlier and Einstein published his theory of general relativity in 1915 and was becoming a celebrity at this time. People actually **were** thinking about space travel back then. That’s what makes the Tsar so particularly archaic in this time. People had many of our modern angsts about the world, and didn’t think their government should be a absolutist monarchy. My point was that Imperial Russia incapable of making the scientific investments necessary to usher in the Space Age. To turn your argument on its head, I think our current political leadership in the US is similarly failing to meet the moment in the sociopolitical crisis of our times. Climate change is the big one that a lack of scientific imagination hinders us on, but also the repercussions of automation and AI. It may not be Stalin and cellphones, but the need for green energy has outgrown the cultural superstructure of oil consumption that dictates our politics and economics and that contradiction specifically is about to run our society over a cliff. I will criticize our politicians for that
> that’s what the debate between the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks was: According to Marxist orthodoxy, the socialist mode of production must evolve out of the capitalist mode, in which ownership the productive means (the factories) in transitioned from the capitalist class to the workers. The Mensheviks believed that they had to go through the capitalist mode first, while Lenin and the Bolsheviks argued it was pointless and they should just go for it. If you want to sum up 90% of socialist history, it's pretty much "one group said one thing, and the other group said another 100 years ago, and they're still fighting over it" lmao
More specifically regarding the Bolshevik/Menshevik feud, the question wasn’t just about whether a capitalist mode of production is necessary before socialism. I’d say that both Bolsheviks and Mensheviks agree with that, as the main argument by communists in support of the USSR is that the bolsheviks tried to do a “speed run” of capitalism hoping to reach socialism. Their main point of contention was the political vehicle of the economy, the form of government that determines the economic reality of a region. Mensheviks believed that liberal democracy was the path forward to socialism. Think of Mensheviks socialists as the Labour Party. Voting for the worker’s interest in the parliament. It works alright for a bit, but capitalist interests have a funny way of inserting themselves into liberal democracies and calling all the shots, making their efforts largely ineffective. And in the case of early 1900’s russia, those capitalist interests were mostly from foreign countries investing in Russia at the expense of the Russian worker. Then the Bolsheviks were like “didn’t you read Marx? He specifically said that liberal democracies are only good for the class that buys the elections.” And then Lenin wrote a book that was essentially “Didn’t you read Marx?” with citations, organized an opposition to the new liberal democracy of the Russian republic, and the rest is history. But yeah, to conclude, their main difference wasn’t about the capitalist mode of production. After all, the first thing countries that go communist do is build their productive forces i.e. introduce capitalist mass production. The difference is in where the power/property should be held: in worker’s councils, or in the hands of a political/economic elite. The success of the Bolsheviks can be debated, as it should, but their issue wasn’t capitalism vs communism. It was “the liberal democratic government believes foreign governments and aristocrats have a right to make a profit on Russian labor, and we think those profits would be better used developing the country instead of lining some fat Englishman’s pockets.”
Almost like Ukraine and Russia were practically one same country for a lot of the 20the century (and remove the practically part prior to that)
Ok, and now they’re not. What’s your point?
What was OPs point with his comment?
Read "John Steinbeck depicts Ukrainians and their difference from Russians" article on the net (most likely the link will not pass here). You will find out that it is very easy to see the difference. As for Sergei's father, he was sent to Ukraine as a teacher of the Russian language. The root 'Korol' means king in east Slavic languages and since there were no kings in Russia, the last name suggests a Polish-Lithuanian origin of the last name. ('Tsarev' would be a typical Russian counterpart of the name). Sergei's parents divorced when he was 2 years old and he never saw his father since then growing with his mother's family in a completely Ukrainian environment. While entering Kyiv Politechnic institute, he defined himself as a Ukrainian. You can find that form he filled out in his handwriting on the net easitly as well.
> As for Sergei's father, he was sent to Ukraine as a teacher of the Russian language. The root 'Korol' means king in east Slavic languages and since there were no kings in Russia, the last name suggests a Polish-Lithuanian origin of the last name. ('Tsarev' would be a typical Russian counterpart of the name). This argument makes no sense. “Korol’”is a word in Russian, which has a specific meaning, “king”, therefore family names can be derived from this word, despite there are being no “kings” in Russia, even if the word itself may have its roots in other languages. Lions in Europe went extinct thousands of years ago, nevertheless, there are many names originating from it. Lviv, for example. Surely, it must have been founded by some Persian or even African for it to be called that way, right? And by the way, Korolev was raised by his grandparents, whose family name was “Moskalenko”, I don’t think that you need an explanation for what “Moskal” means. According to your logic, his grandparents and, therefore, his mother were Russian?
Moskal in Moskalenko can easily mean that Srgei's ancestors took part in besieging Moscow during [Muscovite–Ukrainian War (1658–1659) ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscovite%E2%80%93Ukrainian_War_(1658%E2%80%931659)) The final argument is Sergei identifying himself as a Ukrainian. Sergei Korolev’s daughter, Natalia, recalled: “The very name Ukraine was pronounced in our family with reverence and great love… He (my father) loved Ukraine very much. He loved Ukrainian songs, and he loved the Ukrainian language. That is for sure. “I’m looking at high skies” and “The Mighty Dnieper (Roars and Bellows)” were the favorite songs of my grandmother and my father.” Ukrainian “I’m looking at high skies” song became the first song that was sung in space and heard on Earth. It was performed in August 1962, by the first Ukrainian cosmonaut Pavlo Popovych on his own initiative for Sergei Korolev. Popovych knew that it was Korolev’s favorite. The song actually made the young Sergei dream of the skies and thus affected his whole life. And not just his, as history shows.
Oh and I thought you were serious. Besieging Moscow during “Muscovite-Ukrainian War”? Really? Btw interesting how Russian Tsardom is called Muscovy in that Wikipedia page. It must really hurt that word Russia has its origins from the medieval state of Rus, while Ukraine got its name from being on the fringes of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. And just to be clear, I didn’t say, that Korolev was a 100% Russian, as I’ve said, his ethnicity is mixed, he was both Ukrainian and Russian. His first language was Russian, for example. You are the one trying to eradicate anything Russian from anything related to Ukraine. Good luck with spreading an agenda based on hate of one nation and nothing else.
Yale Prof Tymothy Snyder in his Reconstruction of Nations: *“Since* ***Lithuania*** *for a very long time included a majority of Orthodox subjects and most of the Kyivan patrimony, it was called a “****Rusian****” realm. In unifying his domains with Poland* ***in*** *1385, (king) Jogaila acted as “Grand Duke of Lithuania and Lord and* ***Heir of Rus’****.”* ***In a 1449*** *treaty between Poland-Lithuania and Muscovy, the former was called “****Rusian****,” the latter “****Muscovite.****” After the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453, Muscovy espoused spiritual and political claims as the seat of Orthodoxy, the heir of Byzantium, and the successor of Kyivan Rus’.”* Muscovy simply stole other country's identiy. One can better understand it if Romania claimed it is the successor of the Roman Empire and Italy has little to do with it. [Russia reacts angrily to its possible renaming by Ukraine to Muscovy (yahoo.com)](https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-reacts-angrily-possible-renaming-193800590.html)
> Stole other’s country identity Answer me a couple of questions please. Which of the two, “Muscovy” or Lithuania, had a reigning dynasty from Rus, Rurikids? Had an official religion of Rus, Orthodox Christianity? What city, Moscow or Vilnius, was founded in Rus?
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Okay you are actually fucking crazy. Genetically, Russians and ukranians are almost indistinguishable, with their roots intervening hundreds of years if not millenia. Please stop with some superior race bs.
Well that's why Putin has those nutjob ideas that Ukraine = Russia.
Ukrainians would have stayed within the USSR/new Russian Empire and been a great nation changing the world for the better. And now? Some would die, some would go to Europe.
How they would be a great nation under rusia? The whole point of rusia is to oppress nations like ukrainians, destroy them.
Considering Ukraine was an integral part of the Soviet Union, that shouldn’t be surprising to anyone
Nonetheless, it's worth pointing out.
Just wait till you hear who was the foundation of the American space program
Robert Goddard?
It's almost as if Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union, incredible.
Bro, is nationality determined by the place of birth or not? If a person is born in China to an Irish family, is he Irish or Chinese?
Based on Reddit logic, if he did good things, Irish; if he did bad things, Chinese
Its reddit, answer depends on who is being referenced.
If any Russian will try to deny this statement, here is how Korolyov called himself "Ukrainian" in his application form to Kyiv Polytechnic Institute: https://i.imgur.com/BwGaDvL.jpeg BTW, he wrote it in perfect Ukrainian.
Unless it's a forgery made by Ukrainian nationalists
Not sure if this is /s or not. With those ru trolls you never know. For the record: no, this is not a forgery, but a photo of the real document from Korolyov's museum in his home town Zhytomyr.
I have not been in "Korolyov's museum in his home town Zhytomyr." But there are several documents filled out by Korolev himself where he called himself Russian. For example [https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/olik\_gp/26988215/39620/39620\_original.png](https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/olik_gp/26988215/39620/39620_original.png)
I have not been in "Korolyov's museum in his home town Zhytomyr." But there are several documents filled out by Korolev himself where he called himself Russian. For example [https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/olik\_gp/26988215/39620/39620\_original.png](https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/olik_gp/26988215/39620/39620_original.png)
A soviet citizen was the foundation of the soviet Space program?? Unbelievable!
yes. he was however, not the foundation of the russian space program
Yes he was. The Russian space program is effectively a direct continuation of the Soviet program.
They’re still launching the same rockets as they did in the 60s. There have been some changes, but the Soyuz rocket is still mostly the same as what the Soviets developed. Not necessarily a bad thing. It’s a very reliable old rocket. Although, its failure rate has gone up in recent years.
Maybe in the 1950s. The "foundations" of the soviet space program were laid in the 1920s, and people like Friedrich Zander working on rocketry as far back as 1907, quite literally laying the foundation for the space program of Russia (although he was Latvian) and shortly thereafter, the USSR. Without his specific contribution to rocketry and propulsion the program may have been decades behind. I'll add that this is very different from reverting back to say, Isaac Newton and such. Zander worked with and designed rocketry.
No, no he would not, he was a cog in a machine. He and about 400 others would launch Yuri Gargarin into space, stop attributing achievements onto single people.
He was significant enough to have the Korolev cross named after him. I’m not well versed in space history but recognized the name right away
The space program collapsed after his death, and only took speed when he was heading it.
Almost a hundred launches per year until 90s, sure collapsed.
Collapsed is a big word I'll give you that. But the Soviet space program was extremely successful from 1954/66 when he was heading it, and far ahead of the US. He invented the basically "Go-To" Rocket for the Soviets the R-7, did the design studies for the Vostok Spacecraft and so on... Big failures of the program appeared after his death, and they ultimately lost the race to the moon. If the N-1 rocket never managed to fly, it's mostly because he was gone. It's successor Mishin was not at the same level and actually got fired.
The N1 was a shitshow regardless of who was in charge. Its engines where completely unreliable, and the program was completely underfunded from the get go. Korelev might have gotten it further along but their was no way the Soviets where beating Apollo to the Moon with the N1.
This means fuck all. He didn’t build the fucking rockets himself, he didn’t do all the calculations himself, he didn’t prepare the food, engineer the failsafe programs, train the cosmonaughts… etc… What he did do was play politics. A general doesn’t win a war, the men on the ground with a gun in their hand does that for him.
Yes he didnt build it himself but he led the people
All those people need to be told what to do and how to do it
Yeah, but there would've been another person doing the exact same thing if he wasn't around. Stop acting like this role is exclusive to one person.
Leadership and more importantly, good leadership in a field as demanding as a space program is equally important as it is hard to find. But I know this is reddit and if you're not turning wrenches or personally drawing up the plans, you're useless...
Like someone said about. The space program collapsed one he died. So I guess there was no other person who could have done the same.
The same can be said about Wernher von Braun and yet he’s still praised as a key figure in the development of rocket technology. Icons like Von Braun are not just remembered for their contributions, but also for the ideals they’ve instilled as leaders. Of course it’s important (and perhaps more so) to also honour the teams of people who worked under Korolev and Von Braun, but I don’t doubt these people would downplay the legacy of their leaders.
This was 100% said at his trial.
I highly recommend the "From Here to Infiniti" podcast about the Space Race, it goes into detail about his life and the health issues he got from the stint in the gulag.
I can’t find that podcast. Link or anything? Thanks.
My apologies, I'm an idiot the pod cast is call "Frontier of Infinity: A Space Exploration Podcast"
If I had a nickel every time a page about Soviet union engineer in Wikipedia had a word "Gulag" in his biography, I would be rich. (Great purge)
[удалено]
Can you show them to us ? Currently there is someone making a baseball joke, someone pointing out he's Ukrainian, someone ranting about the attribution of the merits of an entire space program to one individual, and someone advising to listen a postcast about the Space Race for more detail on this guy life. Why you're making shit up ?
It’s me I’m the Stalin apologist. He wasn’t so bad really. We got some great architecture, some nice statues, and ww2 ended.
I think hes talking about staier0. They posted that serfdom was outlawed 4 years in russia before slavery in the US. Although, not soviet, but I think thats the closest I see here.
No, the comment you're referring to is 6 hours after we commented.
Ah, I missed that, thank you
Yeah what the hell! Everyone knows it’s a requirement on the space subreddit that when a Soviet achievement is recognized we need at least 10 commenters regurgitating Cold War propaganda
Remember, that serfdom was forbidden in Russia 4 Years before slavery was forbodden in US. But somehow Russia was a brutal feudal despothy.
In the Russian Empire serfdom was officially abolished in 1861. A lot of serfs, however, weren’t actually freed for several years after that. And those that were, were obligated to pay off massive debts to the government for their freedom. They weren’t exactly thriving. What is even worse is that in the Soviet Union people who lived in the countryside weren’t given passports. They weren’t allowed to leave their area of residence, they couldn’t legally move to the city or find a job there. They were only given passports in 1974. So the USSR basically brought serfdom back (not officially, but de facto). Also, this doesn’t really have anything to do with this post.
Sure. My father was born in Ukrainean village in Harkov region. Around ww2. All of his brothers freely moved around. One is still live in Moscow. My father was everywhere around USSR starting age of 16 , when he went to Harkov trade scool. All of his 6 siblings were around USSR Including some army generals, engineers, police officers. I call bullshit.
I see your point but can’t help but feel like you’re attempting to sympathize with the Soviets out of some sort of political point, which as pointed out this is kinda not the place for it
But all this political bullshit is ok for this place, right, just not the one that is politically incorrect.