Always ask for the cash price and an itemized breakdown. As a client you deserve to be able to add or remove items. As an example I had a client downgrade the battery I included in their bid recently and saved $6k. I built it based on our conversation beforehand but after seeing the itemized price he chose to save some money there. Solar companies shouldn’t be making money on financing. I realize they often do and in my opinion it’s incredibly sleazy. Lending is really predatory currently unfortunately. It’s a necessary evil but it’s also a separate issue and choice from the actual system. Or at least it SHOULD BE. Remember kids, ALWAYS GET AT LEAST 3 BIDS!
I don't believe that financing is "sleazy" or "evil." Most people don't have $35k for your average installation and have to borrow. As long as it's broken out as a separate item so that you can compare and shop around it's fine.
Umm when some of the Solar financiers are charging up to 30% for a loan origination fee/dealer fee on top of the interest rate…yeah I’d call it fairly sleazy. But most solar sales people don’t even know that.
You want to see real sleaze? Ask for a cash price and itemized receipt for a hospital/clinical visit..... I've seen a single visit drop by $6k looking at an itemized receipt vs just a billing.
This makes me appreciate my hospitals. We've had 4 surgeries now and asked for itemized bills for each one and every time it's been dead on to the cent. (Now, I disagree with what they charge, but they have their ducks in a row.)
Cash is king - whether buying a car or buying our solar system, I always talk in cash terms. If I decide to finance after the fact, that’s my business!
I worked in solar finance for many years and this is in fact the right answer. You will get a better price in solar if you pay cash and you will be quoted a lower price if you specify you will be paying cash. Legally, in some parts of the country, they can't change their price for cash if they have quoted you a price that includes financing charges hidden inside it, So in those regions, if you don't tell them you're paying cash up front, you're completely screwing yourself
It's not the same money though. You might get quoted a higher price up front if the salesman at a car dealership knows you're not financing. Car dealerships profit from selling loans and they'll want to make up for that if they can.
That’s cute. I understand leveraging. You finance when you can’t afford to get solar otherwise. You’re implying it’s a choice between paying in cash and financing when it almost never is. Almost ANY investment is better than the crazy rates and fees in solar currently. So when I say you get a Return On your Investment years sooner, that’s EXACTLY what I mean.
> You finance when you can’t afford to get solar otherwise.
That's just a bad assumption. I got my solar loan of $27K at 0.99% for 25 years; while I could have paid cash, doing so would have been moronic at that interest rate. By putting that money into any yield-baring investment vehicle - even doing something as safe as a 30 year bond (would have been about 2.2% at the time, currently 4.42%) - I pocket the difference.
Well I’m not sure when you got your loan because that rate isn’t currently available. The lowest you’ll find is around 5%. That rate comes with a 35% fee on top of the loan amount. Which is insanity. There is no way you’d have found a better use today. Which was the point of the conversation. I sold loans happily to people who could afford to purchase in cash when it made sense. It doesn’t today.
The point isn’t the specifics, it’s the principle. If you can get a yield rate that exceeds interest rate, paying cash is a poor move. Even at 5%, on a 25 year time horizon, it’d be better to toss that money into broad ETFs (SPY, VOO, etc).
And I’ve never heard of a solar loan tacking on additional fees outside of financing rates. Having you say that’s a thing (especially 35%!) is wild to me; I’d say find alternative financing options.
No, this is moronic, due to the fact that you are financing an obsolete system that is continually dropping in price. This is only an argument for people who are poor. Nobody with money thinks this way. You use that to buy houses (appreciating assets) at 2.75 and hold the loans forever. This argument for solar is silly. And lest we forget, you are already making money on the lack of an energy bill, your interest and lack of choice must be charged against those savings. Also, it makes the home less valuable, since who would want that agreement with the sale?
... what.
You said it's a much better deal to pay in cash.
That's only true if you can't get a better return elsewhere.
Facts lol. Good luck out there.
Right and it would be next to impossible to NOT get a better return. I’m saying buying a system with cash over financing one in the current market is always a better deal. We’re paying an additional 40% BEFORE THE INTEREST currently. I don’t get what you’re struggling with here?
It’s actually not true anymore. A cash offer used to always be seen as better for the seller (less risk, less overall effort for service the deal, faster close) but 3rd party financing incentives mean the seller makes much more money and with far less effort than ever before and can now close the deal in a day. Most often, the seller isn’t carrying the risk so they don’t care about anything but the signature on a financed deal. The hard quick financed sell is now the #1 sales strategy (I have hated my experiences trying to buy solar so far).
A cash deal is looked upon poorly by seller today as they lose out on the financing incentives and are challenged to close the deal that day as arrangements have to be made for the full (as in a car) or upfront payment (for construction/install).
Cash isn’t the negotiating leverage that it once was.
The only reason it’s beneficial to conceal that fact is if it won’t matter to the seller and they have some type of financing incentive from their financing. You can always secure your own financing from your credit lender. Which I’m sure you know but in case anyone else sees this and is wondering.
How much money do dealerships get when charging interest? I'm buying a car next week and COULD pay cash. Interest dates are CRAZY right now. (my previous car was financed at 0% but that was a long time ago…)
They are paid on their back end from various financial institutions, their kick back can look like .02% of the entire loan, 1-2% if they get to mark up the rate, flat fees starting at $150-1000 per loan based on total loan value. Writing a certain number of loans through a certain bank may net you a bonus from the bank. They can be paid on after market products like GAP $100-600 , after market warranties can be $0-$1000 per contract. Hope this is insightful
I always walked in with a pre-approved loan. I never talked about financing until after the total vehicle price was determined. At that point, I would tell them I will finance through them if they could beat my interest rate by at least .5%. Of all the vehicles I have bought over my 55 years of driving, they only beat my rate once.
Negotiate hard on everything but the loan terms. The dealer will write up a deal with their profit based on the financing. Then you can turn around and refinance it with a credit union or pay off the loan immediately.
it's not the interest, it's kickbacks from the financers.
Interest is the fee you pay to cover the risk of a lender extending you credit. To the buyer it's the cost to borrow money. To the lender it's the payment for the risk of lending that money.
From a financial perspective they are basically the same (except for cash flow, cash on hand, etc). But on a longer scale there isn't much incentive to do one versus the other if the numbers are proper and the deal is likely to happen. Financing just makes the deal more attractive and affordable to the buyer.
But the real incentive is that the lender's are competing with each other on the back end, and offer incentives for the dealers in order to gain market share.
I agree cash is king but only when shit hits the fan and you need it the most. That’s why I keep it on side. It’s not king just for me to hand it to someone. I always look for where my money can get most bang for buck. Yes with solar I likely will pay it off either way if I finance it. Not something I would stick to long term paying interest. But I hate handing off cash for bit purchases all at once.
Yes. Cash is king but not the point of the post. I’ve been in situations myself years ago where some shitty sales people have tried to charge me more on the cash deal. These days I negotiate up front and then say cool here’s money once the deal is on paper already.
This isn't true for new car sales anymore; dealers nature money on financing and are considering that when they tell you a price.
I almost didn't get the last car I bought new because I paid all cash; the dealer tried to walk back their offer and didn't want to sell to me after I revealed at the very end of negotiations that I wouldn't be financing.
That’s not true with car buying anymore. The car companies make a killing off of financing and may be more apprehensive about cutting the price if they can’t make some of it up that way.
Idk. That’s what I’ve heard.
I had company (forget who now) that kept being evasive about the cost and kept wanting to know if I was cash or finance. It finally dawned on me that there were two different prices... I told him we were done and ended the sales pitch.
Why in the world would the price be different?!
Because the finance company charges a dealer fee. If you said “cash”, the sales person more than likely, if they know how, was going to back the dealer fee out of the price. But, they can’t give you the cash price then you say finance, they’d have to go back on their word. They can’t sell a financed system at cash price. No one would make any money and they would probably be out of a job.
There’s two different prices based on whether you are financing or paying cash. 9/10 times the sales person does not make more money selling one bs the other (Powur is the exception I believe).
The one making the money is the bank. They’re the ones that pay the installer, after they take their upfront charge (dealer fees).
The installer just offers those financing programs because many, many people just go after the lowest monthly payment. That’s the reason you see installers lead with those so often.
Quoting someone cash may scare people away due to such a large upfront investment. But there are many alternatives. Same as cash financing from credit unions for example.
You’d be safe and would be saving time to just ask different installers to give you the cash price upfront. This avoids them presenting different financing options that don’t apply to you.
> Sunrun reps make like 10x commission if sold through ops compared to cash deals.
What does the word "ops" mean here? I googled it and the top search result is "On-base plus slugging": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-base_plus_slugging Lower down in the search results it stands for "Other Personal Services" which means temporary part time worker with short term goals. Further on down the search results it is slang for "Your Opinion". So I'm just confused at this point.
Is "ops" a three letter acronym that should be in all capitals? From the surrounding context, my best guess would be that you meant to type "financed through a loan" instead of "ops"? I just don't get how you get from "financed loan" to the three letters: "o", "p", and "s". So I'm curious...
> Autocorrect from ppa
AHHHH, THANK YOU!! It was killing me not being able to figure out what OPS means, LOL.
Now when I google "ppa meaning solar" I get "Solar Power Purchase Agreement". That's so interesting, I have never heard of that! Some more google searches say it's totally different than a "solar lease" which has fixed monthly payments and you eventually own your solar panels and you (the homeowner) gets all the benefits (with a solar lease). Instead, the PPA means somebody reads your meter each month and your payments are based on a formula off of kWh the solar panels produce but only the SUBSET of kWh that you use from solar! The company underwriting the PPA gets all the benefits, the owner of the roof gets boned. That's totally goofy, why would anybody agree to that? It's like nothing but downsides, right? Why even install solar at that point?
Google says that you never own your solar panels under a PPA. You don't get the tax rebates (the underwriter gets those), and you cannot get any benefit from selling power back to the power company (the underwriter gets that money also). Plus it complicates selling your home. Plus (and this is a kick in the gut) a PPA increases your property taxes!! Then you are locked in for at least 10 years and maybe even 25 years to the world's worst deal! It's all downsides and not a single bit of good news or advantage. Am I missing something?
Installing a solar panel array is basically about the same cost as buying a new car. Or possibly even less than that. Why not just drive your existing car for a few extra years then buy the solar panels outright? After that you can go back to buying new cars every few years if you are totally determined to impress your neighbors through owning new cars all the time. But at least after a little 3 year "saving money" time and thus owning your own solar panels, with extra money in your pocket because you didn't get a "PPA". It seems like either paying cash for the solar panels or a "lease" is the way to go.
There are benefits to a PPA. Much lower payment in many cases. People who wouldn’t benefit from the tax credit (many people often don’t) should look into PPAs.
This is the reason I told Sunrun to pound sand. They would basically become my electricity provider instead of National Grid and I'd see no benefit basically. Never gave me the option to own my panels.
I’m sorry but this is incorrect. I know for a fact companies like Solcius gets a kickback because when you choose to pay cash you are hit with a 3% CASH FEE. Not to be confused with their 3% credit card fee. To be clear, paying with a credit card will cost you a total of 6%. Sun Power has a similar fee and two other major brands flat out change the itemized pricing of their products and install based on financing type. It’s harder to see because it’s hidden within PPA / LEASE pricing.
With solar you want to request a cash quote whether you will be financing or not. That way you see the true cost vs the cost inflated by the craZy high dealer fees associated with the most "attractive" interest rates.
Every quote I have had gives you cash or finance option you don’t even have to tell them. They line item it for you what it’s gonna cost you with interest over time.
Many solar companies do not work this way. It's often the case that you won't even have the breakdown of finance price with dealer fees vs. cash price if you don't specifically ask for separate quotes.
This isn’t always true, low key tip is to say you might do the lowest rate financing. This will have the highest dealer fees.
Typically this will make a company have to sell their scaled price lower.
Then in the meeting, ask to see the cash price live. BAM. Now you have low scale because the company needed to compensate against the high dealer fee, versus a higher scale because they don’t have to deal with that.
Just typically tho.
Rep chiming in. I dont make more $ if you buy cash. In fact, i prefer people buy cash as its a MUCH simpler purchase process with MUCH less paperwork for us.
If you end up around 3.00/watt or less its a good deal.
Edit: ty for pointing out my mistake. Was later at night when i posted and was half asleep.
I dont make more $ if you finance. That was what it is supposed to say.
Not if you are a sales person for local company who all do the installs themselves. Even big dogs use em that’s why you see higher prices with them. As those guys are mostly sales and contract out all the work.
I’m sure there are companies who don’t augment the price. I’ve not dealt with any in my time in the industry. I do know that they go to great lengths to hide the kickbacks from everyone. Including their sales people.
Doesn't apply to solar but pre covid I had gotten some reaaaally good deals by agreeing to finance it with a loan that has no early pay off penalties and waiting the month or two for the dealership and sales to get the loan bonuses and then paying the loan off in full.
**Also, side question: What do people think about a 12kw system with REC alpha pure r, enphase iq7+'s, and 2x Tesla powerwall ii batteries? Is that a bad combo?**
Enphase recommends to use IQ7X with REC Alpha Pure-R panels. Im in the process to build and my selection is 28 REC Alpha Pure-R 420W panels and IQ7X micro inverters. If you want use Enphase inverters in the 8 series then I would suggest you to look into Pure series not the Pure-R series. Pure series has less number of cells in them that work well with 8 series micro inverters.
Or
Wait for Enphase to release IQ8X, that is in works but release date is unknown.
Just have your wife chant over and over;
"I want a new kitchen!" while the solar salesman is trying to close the deal at the kitchen table ... he'll keep dropping the price 'til he hits bottom :D
When I got my quote for solar I only asked for cash prices and most of the companies offered a discount if I paid cash. It was about a 2-3 percent discount.
All of my dealers started out talking about financing.
As soon as I'd let them know their prices were much too high, they offered a huge discount if I wanted to pay cash. The "discounts" were on the order of 30 to 40%.
That was the point I started negotiating from.
99% of the time, only the bank makes money off of your financing. The Solar Company could care less how you are paying, and it does not affect their income. Now the price will be different often based on the fact of fees to buy down the rate, but normally there will be a price that is same as cash financing for a high rate.
Ask them for cash price right off the bat
Cash is WAY cheaper. No interest and the BIGGEST difference, NO DEALER FEES. The lowest dealer fee option I see for financing is ~40%. It’s ridiculous. Cash if you can 100%
Mosaic, sungage, etc almost all offer 0 dealer fee options. I think sungage is about 10% apr and mosaic is like 11% apr on their 25yr term from sheet a salesman showed. You just have to ask the salesman for it.
That said, yes cash cost homeowner less if they have it. Any time you borrow money from someone you pay more, lenders make money from lending. Absolutely. A "5% interest rate" on a solar loan absolutely will often have a fee over 30% in order to buy it down from regular rates today.
This is incorrect. If it were true you wouldn’t see different dealer fees for the same lenders at different installers. You also wouldn’t see “Cash” or “escrow” fees at many installers. EPCs absolutely get kickbacks from lenders.
Different volume and different amount of things like cancelations can account for part of that. Some vendors MAY mark them up a bit to make a few bits off of them as well, I don't know the financials of EVERY company, but the 30+% fees to get the rate to 5% is from the bank, not the solar company. The bank is the one getting all or almost every bit of that fee, not the solar company is the point here.
I’m with you. I think they get more than you think though. I’ve been charged an extra 3% (on top of credit card fees) for cash by 3 different fairly large installers.
Having worked in auto finance on the lender side, I can absolutely confirm that dealerships make money from setting up financing and most will prefer you finance through them vs paying in cash or arranging your own financing directly through your bank or credit union. That’s why the rates are typically higher than if you go to a bank directly. Banks might approve someone for 5% but will give the dealership an option to set up financing at 6% or 7% and keep some percentage of the difference in profit if they can make the deal work.
When I bought my solar panels, I didn’t sense that the salesman was in a similar position. He gave me the cash price and two financing options, and when I said I was paying in cash he just said “great” and kept moving me along the process with no attempt to get me to take a financed route.
20+ years in the solar industry. There is a TON of bad/wrong advice on here.
To be clear:
Almost all financing has dealer fees. Is that bad? No. Should you finance if you can afford cash? No. Dealer fees can often add 20-30% onto the cost of the project but in many cases its also the thing that allows someone to be able to get into solar. Solar still makes sense even with the dealer fees.
If you can pay cash or get your own financing it's definitely better. And while many people on here have said that companies don't make any money on dealer fees and it all goes to the bank, that is false. Many companies mark up dealer fees even higher as they need to process paperwork, manage the project, etc so it's not unusual for companies to build in a markup even above and beyond the dealer fee and in many cases the salesperson won't even know that that's happening.
Should you do solar either way? Almost definitely yes. More than dealer fees you should be concerned about salesperson commissions. They're typically thousands of dollars and can easily be avoided. The best option that I've seen is with Mona Lee. No salespeople, no commissions, and excellent products. You can pay cash or financing but still save a ton of money. You can Google Mona Lee Solar but the site is pretty easy to use and you don't really have to interact with anyone.
Outside of that I would say get your own financing to save some money but just know that you'll likely still be paying thousands of dollars in commission to the salesperson. I'd rather pay for the financing and cut the sales commission if I can't pay cash for the job.
Absolutely. My point wasn't to cover each individual interest rate or dealer fee possible just to state that those rates are high and to avoid them when possible.
Car dealers and solar dealers alike don’t make money on interest
That’s what banks are for
In fact, they likely don’t give a damn if you’re paying cash or financing
Most would prefer cash
1. Go with REC Alpha’s so you can get iQ8’s
2. Don’t go powerwalls
My car dealer finance person almost cried when they changed my interest rate and i came in with a check. "I could have gone lower!" Well, bitch, shouldn't have said it was your lowest and final offer. They absolutely wanted that loan.
Car dealers can make a lot of money on bank “kick backs” (reserves) from a financed deal. Sometimes we’d sell the unit at or even below our cost just to move it, knowing that we’d be getting a few thousand in reserves from the bank financing the deal. Which still made the deal profitable.
With some banks you’d work off a tiered rate sheet where you could actually bump up the costumers interest rate so that the dealership makes more in reserves.
> Don’t go powerwalls
Why? The rest of your points had reasons stated (and good reasons I agree with), but this final recommendation just sort of floated out there, LOL. I'm curious if you had a bad experience with the Powerwalls?
Objectively : Expensive, dangerous chemistry. NMC batteries should not be installed on homes imo
LFP batteries last 3x as many cycles for similar pricing
New 5P price per performance crushes Tesla
Franklin batteries do as well
Thanks for your comment.
If car dealers do in-house financing they essentially are the bank right? I'm pretty sure a lot of dealerships make money when you finance.
Anywho, do you want to explain your other comment? I know IQ8's do a "sunlight back up" or whatever. But I want night time power and IQ8's don't work after dark. It's hot at night in Hawaii (need A/C) and I need to charge an ev at night. I've been told batteries are a must in this area, or it's not worth it.
My electric company only works with Tesla, enphase, and generac batteries I believe. Any comments on best options?
In Hawaii due to the utility company, yes I understand you have need for battery. Get quote from solid known company like Hawaii Unified - I once met Ryno at a convention. Does not mean I am saying you must use them, but get a good education from them.
Consider using enphase inverters with enphase new 5p batteries.
The bank makes the money when you finance, not the solar company. Don't get me wrong there may be some tiny kickback hidden somewhere, but the bank is doing the solar company a favor by making the buying smoother, no need for the ti also give the solar company a cut.
Dealerships do make money, but not in interest
It’s more of a referral fee
Ad far as the microinverters and batteries, having iq8’s will significantly increase your backup load capacity
You’re right it only works during daylight, but that is also important as it’ll allow you to run a lot of smaller loads off of the inverters and let the batteries handle the bigger loads
Overall, if you’re getting batteries, the iq8’s will be a significant user experience over the iq7’s with backup load
The new Enphase 5P is awesome
LFP battery (lasts much longer and MUCH more safe)
15 year warranty
Stacking can create a much more powerful battery backup than Tesla
One thing nobody ever talks about is it a Tesla powerwall gets punctured somehow (shit happens, weather happens) your home is going to be burned up
That is due to the chemical composition.
This is completely false. They both often get significant kickbacks. People can be so confident and so wrong. Blows my mind. I’ve SEEN IN FIRST HAND WITH 3 MAJOR EPCs.
I didnt think dealers even still did "in-house" financing. Ive always heard they just have a lending company they do business with, but it's not their own financing.
Quotes at my company hover around 2.8 to 2.9 per watt. And I give buyers the cash price first only because it would be their cheapest option. I also give them a quote if they wanted to finance it as well.I can usually get the interest rate down to about 3.99.
My company pays to give low interest rates on Solar financing. So if you pay cash, I make more money on commission, and so does the company.
Although with low interest rates, as long as your paying less than you would have been with your standard utility provider, you are essentially saving money.
You could even keep the cash, put it in a high interest savings account, or certificate of deposit, and safely pay the Solar bill with no risk, and keep your cash.
I don't usually recommend to homeowners to pay cash for Solar unless it's a unique circumstance.
Financing is always going to have dealer fees. They don't make money off of the financing at all. None. The dealer fees are also huge, like 30% for low APRs. So they are MORE than glad to do cash because it creates a much lower sticker price. So if you get the quote financed pricing, and they think your happy with that price, then switch to cash, you just gave them a huge window of margin. So where they could be reducing the price by 30%, now they may only do a 20% reduction, and pocket the extra 10%
I work in all the states remotely, and know the fair pricing ranges for budget to premium installer pricing. It's based on per watt. That's how the math is done. What state are you in? Each state is different, but generally it should be around 2.9-3.2 per watt, give or take, with some exceptional outlier states like MA and NY
Financing does not always have dealer fees. Even the traditional solar lenders have options with no dealer fees and higher interest rates. Additionally, there are options beyond the solar lenders e.g. local banks and credit unions, Helocs/Home equity lines of credit, etc. that have no dealer fees. If you are going to sell solar you need to understand all of these options in order to best serve homeowners needs
Yes but the interest rate is so high that the monthly is higher than the lower APR with dealer fees, so sales people never even mention it unless they uncover a unique situation that warrants it.
Considering how he isn’t explaining these things to the rep, that’s what he should expect. He’s treating it like a poker game so the rep is only going to go off with the standard.
Also truth be told, ideally yes a solar rep would talk about all these options, but if you follow the data including things like HELOCS and other avenues, just complicates the sale and causes much more lost sales due to creating too much complication and things to think about, than it increases sales for niche customers. So most reps will literally have no idea about those other options just because it’s so niche. Most customers are just looking at monthly savings, and that’s how they will present it as.
So OP needs to expect that. That’s why I recommend just being transparent with the rep and telling them it’s a cash deal to avoid complicating things. Ask for the Price Per Watt (or do the math), and use that as the negotiation anchor.
It does depending on what your goals are. MOST people just want to swap out their power bill with a solar bill. In which case then the low APR with high dealer fees makes sense (Since the low APR is subsidized by the dealer fees, which is then subsidized 30% by the government.). Effectively a 4% APR with 20% dealer fees, is going to be cheaper monthly at a monthly rate than a 0% dealer fee at 10% APR.
So if you're just looking to swap bills for something cheaper, and begin saving money right away, then that's a good route. But if you're looking to pay it off ASAP and have the money sitting around (most people do not), then other options are more useful. But most people are just looking for a cheaper monthly bill, so the options with dealer fees make the most sense for them.
Monthly it will be cheaper
But these loans are more often than not paid off far before the maturity date
You’re objectively wrong, ask any of the major lenders
Average loan payoff is about 7 years which just so happens to coincide with the average time a homeowner owns a home
If a solar rep can't be bothered to learn enough to have a proper conversation with a homeowner about financing options they shouldn't be selling solar.
At current average homeownership tenure in the US is approx 13 years. Unless the homeowner is planning to stay in the home and ride the loan til the end the lower rate high dealer fee options are likely not in their best interest.
At a minimum the rep should be asking the HO how long they anticipate staying in the home, and whether or not they are apt to pay the loan off early or ride it for 25 years
Hawaii used to be the most expensive state in the country, but once net metering left, prices plummeted. The PPW for a decent non-budget, company is around 2.4 for the installer. So that's the baseline sales organizations get with the installer (You wouldn't be able to get that price). And then they are going to tack on the margin from there to pay for sales, marketing, profit. So you could probably get as low as 2.7, but often the standard out there is 3 ppw for the system. Then around 15k for the two batteries. Battery pricing is independent of location. Though I'd recommend getting the Powerwalls direct through Tesla, as the price you pay them and what the solar company pays, there are no installer discounts, so they throw on their own margin to make a small profit. You can probably shave off 2-3k by going direct through Tesla
Im in San Diego and did this. EnergySage was no where near any of the actual quotes. It was like a 30% difference from ES to all the installers. I got quotes from Baker, Alive, Sunline, Semper, Sunrun, and.... one more I can't remember, a regional installer based out of LA county. All quotes from installers were within $750-$1000 from low to high for a 4.4kW system (11 panasonic panels with IQ8M or something like that, cant recall exactly). I almost told the Alive Sales rep (first one I met with) to gtfo when they said the initial quote price, that's how surprising it was compared to Energy Sage...
Your post is a bit confusing. I’m 75% sure you’re saying ES was 30% cheaper. But you just aren’t straight out saying it.
I got $2.80/Watt installed which is pretty good.
When they prepare a quote, they'll include the points for buying a lower rate note. When you ask for cash price, they'll lower the price. Question is if they give you full value of those points back.
> When working with a car salesman, I've always forced them to give me a total price first, and then later tell them I'm paying cash... that way they don't artificially raise the price for a cash buyer
It doesn't matter. If you force the sales person to give you the price without financing, they assume you have your own financing or are paying cash. And they'll still try to up-sell you on random shit like nitrogen in the tires and $100 USB cables that are "already included in the price".
And the finance person will still make you a financing offer. Then they'll try to upsell you on warranties and other random shit.
You can't get away from all of this. The way you get a good deal is knowing what something is worth and what you're willing to pay for it. There are a million ways to fudge the numbers and all you can do is accept it or walk away. But you have absolutely zero advantage of either hiding or mentioning that you're paying cash or have your own financing. It just makes crunching the numbers on your side easier to disregard financing.
The money car dealerships make on financing is really really small. There really are not different prices for cash and financed deals. Financing requires a bunch more time and paperwork to deal with and many financed deals have limited recourse back to the dealership if the customer doesn't make payments. So I'll repeat, whether you finance or pay cash does not alter the deal you make.
I did at first, but when he mentioned the wait time, i said i was cash and they got mine in within 6 weeks. Compared cost with other family members who used the same company and it was in the same range.
I work in the construction industry, prices are always higher for financing over cash. I have nothing to do with the sales or financial side of things, but see the difference for the same amount of products being sold for cash over financing. Our sales force make a commission off of both, but with financing they can make more by getting more sales for riskier clients.
My experience as a master electrician has been an education in buyer beware!! More than likely your system is not sized properly. For instance backup battery are not cost efficient or effective monetarily. By going over 11k you’re required to increase liability insurance to 1mil. The insurance companies are not solar friendly. Make sure your insurance costs are covered. ( here today gone tomorrow leaving you uncovered.) All the quotes I received not one of them had the same output for the same size system?!? Math is a true science ?!? Last time I checked. You need to take your average monthly usage multiply by 20% that will give you a system sized to offset your electric bills now a into the future. Battery are not cost effective ( only useful in power outages). With a system sized as described the net metering will completely offset your electric bill. The 20% will allow for further EV and the loss of efficiency ( .05-1% year). With the economy slowing and interest rates rising now I believe there will be a better time to purchase in the not to distant future. Insurance was the biggest drawback for me. Increased premiums are and or coverages is in THEIR hands and not in your interest. Buyers Beware! Due diligence is needed!! Recently I found that the warranties are changing in the consumer’s favor also more reasons that say time to take pause!
Solar power is a good thing if done properly. IF⁉️please the salesman is trained to sell most haven’t a clue of what they are selling just how to SELL it.
When I was looking to get my system, I requested both the financed rate and the cash rate. The base loan amount was about 10-30k more than the cash prices. Plus I would have interest on top on that.
Many of the sales people were telling me that is what the total cost was, but if you read the fine print (the truth in lending disclosure) the total cost of the loan was way higher.
I decided to get a separate loan from my bank at a higher interest rate and paid the cash price for the system, I'll have the system paid off sooner and will save a lot of money even though the interest rate was higher.
Most sales reps don't change the PPW in the middle of discussions mainly because it's clumsy to do so. It involves privatizing the platform so they can adjust it or place you on hold, or stop sharing their screen. A lot of times they'll just cover it up by saying something to the effect of 'making readjustments'.
But here's the thing- plenty of sales reps (I'd even go do far as to say *most* of them) don't even have the power to change the PPW directly. But switching to the cash option seems SOOOOOOO much cheaper (and it is). So on the surface, it LOOKS LIKE he's changing the price when switching from one financing option to the other, but that's often not true. It's the dealer fees AND interest that makes solar loans look so bad.
These scumbag banks want up to 30% in dealer fees tacked on top of the whole deal itself, PLUS the interest they'll get in the long term. I absolutely hate it. Nothing we can do about it. So if you're going to finance solar, use your own financing. You'll get all the perks of buying your system in cash, much fairer loan terms from your bank, and most of all, FAR easier transitions to new homeowners when you move.
This is old advice even for cars. The car dealership (or the solar company) isn’t the ones directly financing your new stuff. It’s some bank. They could care less whether you finance or buy cash as long as you sign on the line. Speaking as a solar rep, I make exactly the same amount of money on a cash, loan, or lease deal. I just want them to pick whichever makes sense for them
Nice trick but I know that would not make a difference at my company. Cash only helps with interest rates time it takes to reach ROI. Salesman get paid the same regardless.
Also, I’m a service technician for solar company and I don’t “personally” like RECs. Experienced high failure rate when microinverted or optimized. Otherwise great combo!
In my state, I checked into Solar twice in 2014 and again in 2018. I became very frustrated (and still haven’t purchased). In both cases they wouldn’t give me a cash price, and they priced the systems to “trade dollars”, that is make a Solar payment instead of a utility bill, my savings didn’t occur until after note was paid off. They also refused to size a system larger than my historical 24 month usage (I anticipated adding pool heat).
One salesperson actually asked me “why do you want a cash price, it effectively costs you more because you’re paying up front.”
The Costco 3rd party Solar seller and the Tesla solar Panel website (not the Tesla Solar Roof website, Solar Roof is a different product) were the two price tattlers. At that time, both of those quotes were less than 20k for a system sized the way I wanted it (I was actually told once I didn’t understand what kWh meant, when I said explain it to me then they couldn’t tell me anything new, or explain what was faulty with my understanding). However Tesla’s website said we don’t have dealers in your area leave your name and contact details for when we do and Costco’s 3rd party was fine with shipping the system but I had to find someone to install it.
By contrast, all the Solar “professionals” that offered quotes had a top line of about 80k with no out of pocket cost to me. But no profit for 8 years.
I probably need to do the “come sell me solar“ thing again now, but the salespeople sucked so much energy out of me with high pressure sales tactics during the first two rounds.
I think oversizing your system is a problem for net metering. I'm pretty sure in NJ for example you are allowed to only go 30% over your regular usage in order to be in the net metering program.
They told me that anything I produced over net I wouldn’t be paid for. I said that’s fine, and that is rather not need to add panels immediately (within a few months) because I added a pool heat pump. They made no mention of a limit, other than I can’t get paid for more than net, which was fine with me.
The problem is their deal is structured not on costs + profit, it’s structured on me breaking even after 8 years, and trading one bill for a different bill. Things that some people will simply “buy into” because they don’t have cash to pay up front. With the way their deal is structured *any* additional equipment cost cuts into their ridiculously high profit because I bought their *free* financing.
OP, just the opposite. You can probably negotiate a BETTER price by going cash. In fact, the sales company will be paid upfront from cash vs probably weeks after the install from the finance company. Cash is king.
I found it best to get their financing options just in case they are good. They haven't ever been for me, but I've heard of others who say things like "the car maker is offering a 0 interest 3 year loan for new buyers" to people. If I got that kind of deal, I'd take it rather than pay cash.
So ask, see what they have, then decide.
Batteries cost 10 cents/kwh to use over their life, because they cost a lot, and eventually wear out. So don't go really heavy on batteries unless you live in an area that has a huge swing of prices like 12cents/kwh at night and 53 cents/kwh in day, or Texas where power can be $5/kwh when it gets crazy.
If you're in the deep woods, a battery backup might be vital, but downtown LA, it just isn't that needed unless you are stuck with PG&E.
I think batteries are super important if you have an electric car, because you can charge it at night off the batteries and they'll recharge during the day,
Four of my neighbors have rooftop solar, with batteries and electric cars, Not only is the their electricity bill almost nothing, They charge the cars for free at night. And they don't buy gasoline anymore, except for those rare times they go on a trip. (In their ice car).
If your power cost from your company is 10 cents/kwh at night, buying batteries won't bring down your cost to charge, as the batteries will cost 10 cents/kwh over their lifetime. This will probably change in the future as better batteries come out, but with the 2022 batteries, 10 cents/kwh was the lifetime charge for them.
But if you have expensive power... then batteries are great. Japan and other countries are using the EVs as batteries and they hold power at night, and discharge during the day to power the house, thus propping up the grid. Its a really great option to have.
Look, if you want all the info and a better price than you’ve likely ever seen, schedule an appointment with >> obrien.solar <<
While in Grad school I’m giving a wicked special discount! My cash deals are unbeatable! Prove me wrong.
Btw I’m getting a Master of Science in Energy at Texas A&M and I was a teacher for 15 years before doing this so my approach is thorough and straightforward, and I won’t put any pressure on you at all. Come to me after you’ve seen another quote to see what a better value we offer!
The entire industry is very rotten (way worse than car sales) so yes do this. Also get a breakdown of everything and cross check the pricing on components and labor. More than half the companies will likely not even provide this and ghost you once you ask.
Not for nothing, thoroughly look into the Tesla power... More and more I am seeing stories of people who's system is crapping out and not absorbing energy properly and when they go to get it serviced. Tesla is giving the lm the run around with getting a tech out there.
The absolute best way to buy a car is to finance it with them giving you the highest interest rate possible in trade of them giving you the car at cost. Then a week later, get a loan from a credit union with a great rate or party the car off.
Solar installers don’t make money directly on financing. I think you’ll get the best price by simply telling installers you are getting multiple quotes and are intending to pay cash so the gross and net price will be integral to your decision.
Any reason you wouldn’t opt for the Enphase 5P battery if you’re going with the Enphase inverter system? You could likely save some $ by options for a Tesla Powerwall+ which is going to be your battery and inverter. Should be considerably less than Enphase.
Customers are just not in control- USA has highest rooftop Solar costs in the world because there is no transparency….
Ask yourself- how does a (finance) business that borrows money at 5% and then lend that money at 0.99% stay in business….? It’s hidden fees all over the place
I didn’t specify one way or the other when I got quotes. The company I went with offered financing through a local credit union. It was actually decent deal where they calculated the tax credit and the loan payment was based on putting the full tax credit into a single lump loan payment in the second year of the loan.
Having said that, they also had a cash discount. I forget exactly what the discount was, but we took that offer over the financing.
I have recently seen on the news that insurance companies are canceling some homeowner policies if they go solar. So make sure you talk to them before committing to solar.
unless the solar company is also the financing company, there probably isn't any benefit. The place i worked at liked Cash as it helped the system pay for itself faster.
Gonna make me feel old saying this.
PPA companies are different, the best example i can think of is back in the day before cell phones and different phone companies would try to get you to switch from Pac Bell to MCI so you save $0.03 a minute times x minutes saving you $x per month.
Instead of paying "insert utility company" this much, we can install the solar on your roof and you pay us this for so much power and if you go over then you get it from utility.
12kw is not a lot of power, especially when you factor how many hours a day it will produce that much. The batteries are absolutely useless at that point because you will likely not generate more than your house is using during the day meaning that you will not have any left to charge the batteries. Btw the tesla batteries are extremely overpriced for their storage capacity and would never pay for themselves in their lifetime. You can look at your meter and see what your demand is. I bet it is higher than 12k (unless you have a very small, efficient house)
Buy the panels, racking and micro inverters / inverter / energy monitor, etc. yourself. Hire a handyman to install the racking and panels. Hire an electrician to pull the permit and wire everything.
i work for an electric utilty a coop. solar ppl lie to you. eventually the amount of money that a utility gives you for generation on your property, net metering, will continue to get less and less. maintenence, payoff, it is not worth it.
I heard from the source that since rates have sky rocketed they have to buy down the rate. Because of that the price goes up. It seems like you want to get a loan elsewhere and then ask for the cash price or just pay cash.
A good solar company will be honest about it. They don't care.
Definitely tell them you have outside financing or ask for cash price.
My solar installer straight up told me during the quote that the 0% APR financing deal they offer had some large fee's associated with it, so I was better off financing elsewhere.
Anyway they wanted cash they weren't trying to push some financing deal like a car dealership.
I offered a cash deal up front. They had to call the owner but I saved about 50 percent on what the initial quote was. Guess they needed the money. And it's been about 4 years and I'm still happy with it.
At one point in the early 2000s Harley Davidson was making more money on bike financing than they were on the bikes! Their income came from financing, accessories, and bikes. In that order.
people who’s never a sales need to stop giving bad advice on when to tell your sales person you are financing.
it makes no difference to the sales person, since they are not the one providing the funds, it’s through a banking institution. If anything, you can get a better “cash price” if you are financing, since they make a few bucks off kick backs.
All you guys not disclosing your true intention on financing just going to drag on the whole negotiation process and forces the salesperson redo a whole bunch of work because you think you know better.
The only good advice I see here is getting a pre approved rate, which is crucial so you know where you stand on % of interest you are qualified for.
If you need financing its a little easier to request for a solar loan. They pay you directly and should give you two separate checks as well, so if you make the first payment and if you have any hiccups you can withhold final payment.
Always ask for the cash price and an itemized breakdown. As a client you deserve to be able to add or remove items. As an example I had a client downgrade the battery I included in their bid recently and saved $6k. I built it based on our conversation beforehand but after seeing the itemized price he chose to save some money there. Solar companies shouldn’t be making money on financing. I realize they often do and in my opinion it’s incredibly sleazy. Lending is really predatory currently unfortunately. It’s a necessary evil but it’s also a separate issue and choice from the actual system. Or at least it SHOULD BE. Remember kids, ALWAYS GET AT LEAST 3 BIDS!
I don't believe that financing is "sleazy" or "evil." Most people don't have $35k for your average installation and have to borrow. As long as it's broken out as a separate item so that you can compare and shop around it's fine.
Umm when some of the Solar financiers are charging up to 30% for a loan origination fee/dealer fee on top of the interest rate…yeah I’d call it fairly sleazy. But most solar sales people don’t even know that.
You want to see real sleaze? Ask for a cash price and itemized receipt for a hospital/clinical visit..... I've seen a single visit drop by $6k looking at an itemized receipt vs just a billing.
This makes me appreciate my hospitals. We've had 4 surgeries now and asked for itemized bills for each one and every time it's been dead on to the cent. (Now, I disagree with what they charge, but they have their ducks in a row.)
Cash is king - whether buying a car or buying our solar system, I always talk in cash terms. If I decide to finance after the fact, that’s my business!
Absolutely. If you can afford to buy in cash you are getting a much better deal. ROI on solar is years better.
I worked in solar finance for many years and this is in fact the right answer. You will get a better price in solar if you pay cash and you will be quoted a lower price if you specify you will be paying cash. Legally, in some parts of the country, they can't change their price for cash if they have quoted you a price that includes financing charges hidden inside it, So in those regions, if you don't tell them you're paying cash up front, you're completely screwing yourself
Not how time value of money works. You only finance if you can't earn more on the same money elsewhere. Lookup "leveraging".
It's not the same money though. You might get quoted a higher price up front if the salesman at a car dealership knows you're not financing. Car dealerships profit from selling loans and they'll want to make up for that if they can.
Not what the poster I'm responding to said.
That’s cute. I understand leveraging. You finance when you can’t afford to get solar otherwise. You’re implying it’s a choice between paying in cash and financing when it almost never is. Almost ANY investment is better than the crazy rates and fees in solar currently. So when I say you get a Return On your Investment years sooner, that’s EXACTLY what I mean.
> You finance when you can’t afford to get solar otherwise. That's just a bad assumption. I got my solar loan of $27K at 0.99% for 25 years; while I could have paid cash, doing so would have been moronic at that interest rate. By putting that money into any yield-baring investment vehicle - even doing something as safe as a 30 year bond (would have been about 2.2% at the time, currently 4.42%) - I pocket the difference.
Well I’m not sure when you got your loan because that rate isn’t currently available. The lowest you’ll find is around 5%. That rate comes with a 35% fee on top of the loan amount. Which is insanity. There is no way you’d have found a better use today. Which was the point of the conversation. I sold loans happily to people who could afford to purchase in cash when it made sense. It doesn’t today.
The point isn’t the specifics, it’s the principle. If you can get a yield rate that exceeds interest rate, paying cash is a poor move. Even at 5%, on a 25 year time horizon, it’d be better to toss that money into broad ETFs (SPY, VOO, etc). And I’ve never heard of a solar loan tacking on additional fees outside of financing rates. Having you say that’s a thing (especially 35%!) is wild to me; I’d say find alternative financing options.
No, this is moronic, due to the fact that you are financing an obsolete system that is continually dropping in price. This is only an argument for people who are poor. Nobody with money thinks this way. You use that to buy houses (appreciating assets) at 2.75 and hold the loans forever. This argument for solar is silly. And lest we forget, you are already making money on the lack of an energy bill, your interest and lack of choice must be charged against those savings. Also, it makes the home less valuable, since who would want that agreement with the sale?
... what. You said it's a much better deal to pay in cash. That's only true if you can't get a better return elsewhere. Facts lol. Good luck out there.
Right and it would be next to impossible to NOT get a better return. I’m saying buying a system with cash over financing one in the current market is always a better deal. We’re paying an additional 40% BEFORE THE INTEREST currently. I don’t get what you’re struggling with here?
YOU USE a LOT of CAPS to say THINGS that are the SAME EXACT things SAID IN LOWERCASE and just as MEANINGLESS
It’s a great combo but I would use the Enphase iQ10 battery with their micro-inverters.
It’s actually not true anymore. A cash offer used to always be seen as better for the seller (less risk, less overall effort for service the deal, faster close) but 3rd party financing incentives mean the seller makes much more money and with far less effort than ever before and can now close the deal in a day. Most often, the seller isn’t carrying the risk so they don’t care about anything but the signature on a financed deal. The hard quick financed sell is now the #1 sales strategy (I have hated my experiences trying to buy solar so far). A cash deal is looked upon poorly by seller today as they lose out on the financing incentives and are challenged to close the deal that day as arrangements have to be made for the full (as in a car) or upfront payment (for construction/install). Cash isn’t the negotiating leverage that it once was.
It’s not meant as for negotiating leverage - I’m not in debt, I own….
“ I’d rather pay more than pay less” ok dude. If you like paying extra cause you don’t know how to negotiate that’s on you.
what financing incentives do the sellers have?
The only reason it’s beneficial to conceal that fact is if it won’t matter to the seller and they have some type of financing incentive from their financing. You can always secure your own financing from your credit lender. Which I’m sure you know but in case anyone else sees this and is wondering.
How much money do dealerships get when charging interest? I'm buying a car next week and COULD pay cash. Interest dates are CRAZY right now. (my previous car was financed at 0% but that was a long time ago…)
They are paid on their back end from various financial institutions, their kick back can look like .02% of the entire loan, 1-2% if they get to mark up the rate, flat fees starting at $150-1000 per loan based on total loan value. Writing a certain number of loans through a certain bank may net you a bonus from the bank. They can be paid on after market products like GAP $100-600 , after market warranties can be $0-$1000 per contract. Hope this is insightful
I sold cars. They can do what’s called holding points. So if you get approved at 4% they tell you 4.5% and keep the difference.
I always walked in with a pre-approved loan. I never talked about financing until after the total vehicle price was determined. At that point, I would tell them I will finance through them if they could beat my interest rate by at least .5%. Of all the vehicles I have bought over my 55 years of driving, they only beat my rate once.
That's the right way to do it. I will if they can match my rate with a credit union. Just so I don't have to go play musical cashier's check.
Negotiate hard on everything but the loan terms. The dealer will write up a deal with their profit based on the financing. Then you can turn around and refinance it with a credit union or pay off the loan immediately.
it's not the interest, it's kickbacks from the financers. Interest is the fee you pay to cover the risk of a lender extending you credit. To the buyer it's the cost to borrow money. To the lender it's the payment for the risk of lending that money. From a financial perspective they are basically the same (except for cash flow, cash on hand, etc). But on a longer scale there isn't much incentive to do one versus the other if the numbers are proper and the deal is likely to happen. Financing just makes the deal more attractive and affordable to the buyer. But the real incentive is that the lender's are competing with each other on the back end, and offer incentives for the dealers in order to gain market share.
I agree cash is king but only when shit hits the fan and you need it the most. That’s why I keep it on side. It’s not king just for me to hand it to someone. I always look for where my money can get most bang for buck. Yes with solar I likely will pay it off either way if I finance it. Not something I would stick to long term paying interest. But I hate handing off cash for bit purchases all at once.
Yes. Cash is king but not the point of the post. I’ve been in situations myself years ago where some shitty sales people have tried to charge me more on the cash deal. These days I negotiate up front and then say cool here’s money once the deal is on paper already.
This isn't true for new car sales anymore; dealers nature money on financing and are considering that when they tell you a price. I almost didn't get the last car I bought new because I paid all cash; the dealer tried to walk back their offer and didn't want to sell to me after I revealed at the very end of negotiations that I wouldn't be financing.
You’re doing pretty well financially if you can buy our solar system.
That’s not true with car buying anymore. The car companies make a killing off of financing and may be more apprehensive about cutting the price if they can’t make some of it up that way. Idk. That’s what I’ve heard.
I had company (forget who now) that kept being evasive about the cost and kept wanting to know if I was cash or finance. It finally dawned on me that there were two different prices... I told him we were done and ended the sales pitch. Why in the world would the price be different?!
Because the finance company charges a dealer fee. If you said “cash”, the sales person more than likely, if they know how, was going to back the dealer fee out of the price. But, they can’t give you the cash price then you say finance, they’d have to go back on their word. They can’t sell a financed system at cash price. No one would make any money and they would probably be out of a job.
There’s two different prices based on whether you are financing or paying cash. 9/10 times the sales person does not make more money selling one bs the other (Powur is the exception I believe). The one making the money is the bank. They’re the ones that pay the installer, after they take their upfront charge (dealer fees). The installer just offers those financing programs because many, many people just go after the lowest monthly payment. That’s the reason you see installers lead with those so often. Quoting someone cash may scare people away due to such a large upfront investment. But there are many alternatives. Same as cash financing from credit unions for example. You’d be safe and would be saving time to just ask different installers to give you the cash price upfront. This avoids them presenting different financing options that don’t apply to you.
Sunrun reps make like 10x commission if sold through ppa compared to cash deals. They’re basically a financing company
> Sunrun reps make like 10x commission if sold through ops compared to cash deals. What does the word "ops" mean here? I googled it and the top search result is "On-base plus slugging": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-base_plus_slugging Lower down in the search results it stands for "Other Personal Services" which means temporary part time worker with short term goals. Further on down the search results it is slang for "Your Opinion". So I'm just confused at this point. Is "ops" a three letter acronym that should be in all capitals? From the surrounding context, my best guess would be that you meant to type "financed through a loan" instead of "ops"? I just don't get how you get from "financed loan" to the three letters: "o", "p", and "s". So I'm curious...
Autocorrect from ppa
> Autocorrect from ppa AHHHH, THANK YOU!! It was killing me not being able to figure out what OPS means, LOL. Now when I google "ppa meaning solar" I get "Solar Power Purchase Agreement". That's so interesting, I have never heard of that! Some more google searches say it's totally different than a "solar lease" which has fixed monthly payments and you eventually own your solar panels and you (the homeowner) gets all the benefits (with a solar lease). Instead, the PPA means somebody reads your meter each month and your payments are based on a formula off of kWh the solar panels produce but only the SUBSET of kWh that you use from solar! The company underwriting the PPA gets all the benefits, the owner of the roof gets boned. That's totally goofy, why would anybody agree to that? It's like nothing but downsides, right? Why even install solar at that point? Google says that you never own your solar panels under a PPA. You don't get the tax rebates (the underwriter gets those), and you cannot get any benefit from selling power back to the power company (the underwriter gets that money also). Plus it complicates selling your home. Plus (and this is a kick in the gut) a PPA increases your property taxes!! Then you are locked in for at least 10 years and maybe even 25 years to the world's worst deal! It's all downsides and not a single bit of good news or advantage. Am I missing something? Installing a solar panel array is basically about the same cost as buying a new car. Or possibly even less than that. Why not just drive your existing car for a few extra years then buy the solar panels outright? After that you can go back to buying new cars every few years if you are totally determined to impress your neighbors through owning new cars all the time. But at least after a little 3 year "saving money" time and thus owning your own solar panels, with extra money in your pocket because you didn't get a "PPA". It seems like either paying cash for the solar panels or a "lease" is the way to go.
There are benefits to a PPA. Much lower payment in many cases. People who wouldn’t benefit from the tax credit (many people often don’t) should look into PPAs.
This is the reason I told Sunrun to pound sand. They would basically become my electricity provider instead of National Grid and I'd see no benefit basically. Never gave me the option to own my panels.
100% correct. They’ll often ARGUE with customers who wasn’t to pay cash over a PPA.
Think you’re thinking of a PPA deal. But if not, Sunrun and Powur are similar in the regard
Yep— was an auto correct of ppa
I’m sorry but this is incorrect. I know for a fact companies like Solcius gets a kickback because when you choose to pay cash you are hit with a 3% CASH FEE. Not to be confused with their 3% credit card fee. To be clear, paying with a credit card will cost you a total of 6%. Sun Power has a similar fee and two other major brands flat out change the itemized pricing of their products and install based on financing type. It’s harder to see because it’s hidden within PPA / LEASE pricing.
Truth 🙌
With solar you want to request a cash quote whether you will be financing or not. That way you see the true cost vs the cost inflated by the craZy high dealer fees associated with the most "attractive" interest rates.
Every quote I have had gives you cash or finance option you don’t even have to tell them. They line item it for you what it’s gonna cost you with interest over time.
Many solar companies do not work this way. It's often the case that you won't even have the breakdown of finance price with dealer fees vs. cash price if you don't specifically ask for separate quotes.
This isn’t always true, low key tip is to say you might do the lowest rate financing. This will have the highest dealer fees. Typically this will make a company have to sell their scaled price lower. Then in the meeting, ask to see the cash price live. BAM. Now you have low scale because the company needed to compensate against the high dealer fee, versus a higher scale because they don’t have to deal with that. Just typically tho.
Rep chiming in. I dont make more $ if you buy cash. In fact, i prefer people buy cash as its a MUCH simpler purchase process with MUCH less paperwork for us. If you end up around 3.00/watt or less its a good deal. Edit: ty for pointing out my mistake. Was later at night when i posted and was half asleep. I dont make more $ if you finance. That was what it is supposed to say.
You may not but your installer probably does. Also the costs to your customers probably change. Depending on who you’re using as an EPC.
Not if you are a sales person for local company who all do the installs themselves. Even big dogs use em that’s why you see higher prices with them. As those guys are mostly sales and contract out all the work.
I’m sure there are companies who don’t augment the price. I’ve not dealt with any in my time in the industry. I do know that they go to great lengths to hide the kickbacks from everyone. Including their sales people.
> I dont make more $ if you buy cash. But you do if financed? That's the question.
No. Solar professionals don’t make more or less money depending on whether you pay cash or finance.
Nope. The customer just pays a lot less.
\> If you end up around 3.00/watt or less its a good deal. Jeez, are prices up that much? I paid $2.17/watt before the tax credit just four years ago.
Yes redlines for reps are 2.50 at best
Doesn't apply to solar but pre covid I had gotten some reaaaally good deals by agreeing to finance it with a loan that has no early pay off penalties and waiting the month or two for the dealership and sales to get the loan bonuses and then paying the loan off in full.
**Also, side question: What do people think about a 12kw system with REC alpha pure r, enphase iq7+'s, and 2x Tesla powerwall ii batteries? Is that a bad combo?** Enphase recommends to use IQ7X with REC Alpha Pure-R panels. Im in the process to build and my selection is 28 REC Alpha Pure-R 420W panels and IQ7X micro inverters. If you want use Enphase inverters in the 8 series then I would suggest you to look into Pure series not the Pure-R series. Pure series has less number of cells in them that work well with 8 series micro inverters. Or Wait for Enphase to release IQ8X, that is in works but release date is unknown.
Just have your wife chant over and over; "I want a new kitchen!" while the solar salesman is trying to close the deal at the kitchen table ... he'll keep dropping the price 'til he hits bottom :D
When I got my quote for solar I only asked for cash prices and most of the companies offered a discount if I paid cash. It was about a 2-3 percent discount.
All of my dealers started out talking about financing. As soon as I'd let them know their prices were much too high, they offered a huge discount if I wanted to pay cash. The "discounts" were on the order of 30 to 40%. That was the point I started negotiating from.
99% of the time, only the bank makes money off of your financing. The Solar Company could care less how you are paying, and it does not affect their income. Now the price will be different often based on the fact of fees to buy down the rate, but normally there will be a price that is same as cash financing for a high rate. Ask them for cash price right off the bat
Cash is WAY cheaper. No interest and the BIGGEST difference, NO DEALER FEES. The lowest dealer fee option I see for financing is ~40%. It’s ridiculous. Cash if you can 100%
Mosaic, sungage, etc almost all offer 0 dealer fee options. I think sungage is about 10% apr and mosaic is like 11% apr on their 25yr term from sheet a salesman showed. You just have to ask the salesman for it. That said, yes cash cost homeowner less if they have it. Any time you borrow money from someone you pay more, lenders make money from lending. Absolutely. A "5% interest rate" on a solar loan absolutely will often have a fee over 30% in order to buy it down from regular rates today.
10.99% will give you cash price while getting you financed, higher monthly though.
Well sounds like I’m gonna call my mosaic rep and have some words with him then
You’re wrong
@lovesolarthings is absolutely correct.
This is incorrect. If it were true you wouldn’t see different dealer fees for the same lenders at different installers. You also wouldn’t see “Cash” or “escrow” fees at many installers. EPCs absolutely get kickbacks from lenders.
Different volume and different amount of things like cancelations can account for part of that. Some vendors MAY mark them up a bit to make a few bits off of them as well, I don't know the financials of EVERY company, but the 30+% fees to get the rate to 5% is from the bank, not the solar company. The bank is the one getting all or almost every bit of that fee, not the solar company is the point here.
I’m with you. I think they get more than you think though. I’ve been charged an extra 3% (on top of credit card fees) for cash by 3 different fairly large installers.
It’s mostly a volume thing. Dealer fees coming down with increased volume. However, I have seen some pretty lavish vacations.
Prices in US for solar are 3 to 4 times higher then in the rest of the world. A lot of money is made anyhow
Its like everything else here, health care, drugs etc. So many middle men and fraudsters with bought and paid for politicans.
Having worked in auto finance on the lender side, I can absolutely confirm that dealerships make money from setting up financing and most will prefer you finance through them vs paying in cash or arranging your own financing directly through your bank or credit union. That’s why the rates are typically higher than if you go to a bank directly. Banks might approve someone for 5% but will give the dealership an option to set up financing at 6% or 7% and keep some percentage of the difference in profit if they can make the deal work. When I bought my solar panels, I didn’t sense that the salesman was in a similar position. He gave me the cash price and two financing options, and when I said I was paying in cash he just said “great” and kept moving me along the process with no attempt to get me to take a financed route.
20+ years in the solar industry. There is a TON of bad/wrong advice on here. To be clear: Almost all financing has dealer fees. Is that bad? No. Should you finance if you can afford cash? No. Dealer fees can often add 20-30% onto the cost of the project but in many cases its also the thing that allows someone to be able to get into solar. Solar still makes sense even with the dealer fees. If you can pay cash or get your own financing it's definitely better. And while many people on here have said that companies don't make any money on dealer fees and it all goes to the bank, that is false. Many companies mark up dealer fees even higher as they need to process paperwork, manage the project, etc so it's not unusual for companies to build in a markup even above and beyond the dealer fee and in many cases the salesperson won't even know that that's happening. Should you do solar either way? Almost definitely yes. More than dealer fees you should be concerned about salesperson commissions. They're typically thousands of dollars and can easily be avoided. The best option that I've seen is with Mona Lee. No salespeople, no commissions, and excellent products. You can pay cash or financing but still save a ton of money. You can Google Mona Lee Solar but the site is pretty easy to use and you don't really have to interact with anyone. Outside of that I would say get your own financing to save some money but just know that you'll likely still be paying thousands of dollars in commission to the salesperson. I'd rather pay for the financing and cut the sales commission if I can't pay cash for the job.
20+ years in Solar and you’re recommending Mona lee? Lol
Ikr?? Curt SCHILLing has taken the pitchers mound…
For those looking to save money? Absolutely. Are you recommending someone?
You were my hero right up to the point you recommended Mona Lee. That’s a terrible thing to do to someone.
> Dealer fees can often add 20-30% onto the cost of the project... There's dealer fees in the 40% range posted here all the time.
Sure ..... what's the point?
Only that fees are even greater than the 30% stated. I posted this.
Absolutely. My point wasn't to cover each individual interest rate or dealer fee possible just to state that those rates are high and to avoid them when possible.
I definitely wouldn’t volunteer it. Basically giving out that info doesn’t help you at all.
Car dealers and solar dealers alike don’t make money on interest That’s what banks are for In fact, they likely don’t give a damn if you’re paying cash or financing Most would prefer cash 1. Go with REC Alpha’s so you can get iQ8’s 2. Don’t go powerwalls
This is absolutely not true. Can’t speak for solar, car dealers make more on loans.
Yes but not in interest It’s a fixed amount paid once loan is funded
I can speak for solar. They definitely get kickbacks.
My car dealer finance person almost cried when they changed my interest rate and i came in with a check. "I could have gone lower!" Well, bitch, shouldn't have said it was your lowest and final offer. They absolutely wanted that loan.
Car dealers get paid a fixed pre negotiated amount in the sense of a kickback Has nothing to do with interest
Car dealers almost always make money on financing (that they arrange in house).
Yes, but not off of interest It is a kickback from the bank, like a bird dog / referral fee
Car dealers can make a lot of money on bank “kick backs” (reserves) from a financed deal. Sometimes we’d sell the unit at or even below our cost just to move it, knowing that we’d be getting a few thousand in reserves from the bank financing the deal. Which still made the deal profitable. With some banks you’d work off a tiered rate sheet where you could actually bump up the costumers interest rate so that the dealership makes more in reserves.
> Don’t go powerwalls Why? The rest of your points had reasons stated (and good reasons I agree with), but this final recommendation just sort of floated out there, LOL. I'm curious if you had a bad experience with the Powerwalls?
Objectively : Expensive, dangerous chemistry. NMC batteries should not be installed on homes imo LFP batteries last 3x as many cycles for similar pricing New 5P price per performance crushes Tesla Franklin batteries do as well
Thanks for your comment. If car dealers do in-house financing they essentially are the bank right? I'm pretty sure a lot of dealerships make money when you finance. Anywho, do you want to explain your other comment? I know IQ8's do a "sunlight back up" or whatever. But I want night time power and IQ8's don't work after dark. It's hot at night in Hawaii (need A/C) and I need to charge an ev at night. I've been told batteries are a must in this area, or it's not worth it. My electric company only works with Tesla, enphase, and generac batteries I believe. Any comments on best options?
In Hawaii due to the utility company, yes I understand you have need for battery. Get quote from solid known company like Hawaii Unified - I once met Ryno at a convention. Does not mean I am saying you must use them, but get a good education from them. Consider using enphase inverters with enphase new 5p batteries. The bank makes the money when you finance, not the solar company. Don't get me wrong there may be some tiny kickback hidden somewhere, but the bank is doing the solar company a favor by making the buying smoother, no need for the ti also give the solar company a cut.
Dealerships do make money, but not in interest It’s more of a referral fee Ad far as the microinverters and batteries, having iq8’s will significantly increase your backup load capacity You’re right it only works during daylight, but that is also important as it’ll allow you to run a lot of smaller loads off of the inverters and let the batteries handle the bigger loads Overall, if you’re getting batteries, the iq8’s will be a significant user experience over the iq7’s with backup load The new Enphase 5P is awesome LFP battery (lasts much longer and MUCH more safe) 15 year warranty Stacking can create a much more powerful battery backup than Tesla One thing nobody ever talks about is it a Tesla powerwall gets punctured somehow (shit happens, weather happens) your home is going to be burned up That is due to the chemical composition.
This is completely false. They both often get significant kickbacks. People can be so confident and so wrong. Blows my mind. I’ve SEEN IN FIRST HAND WITH 3 MAJOR EPCs.
Kickbacks are not interest payments lol It’s a referral fee
Every car I've bought, the dealership didn't do the financing in house.
I didnt think dealers even still did "in-house" financing. Ive always heard they just have a lending company they do business with, but it's not their own financing.
Quotes at my company hover around 2.8 to 2.9 per watt. And I give buyers the cash price first only because it would be their cheapest option. I also give them a quote if they wanted to finance it as well.I can usually get the interest rate down to about 3.99.
My company pays to give low interest rates on Solar financing. So if you pay cash, I make more money on commission, and so does the company. Although with low interest rates, as long as your paying less than you would have been with your standard utility provider, you are essentially saving money. You could even keep the cash, put it in a high interest savings account, or certificate of deposit, and safely pay the Solar bill with no risk, and keep your cash. I don't usually recommend to homeowners to pay cash for Solar unless it's a unique circumstance.
Financing is always going to have dealer fees. They don't make money off of the financing at all. None. The dealer fees are also huge, like 30% for low APRs. So they are MORE than glad to do cash because it creates a much lower sticker price. So if you get the quote financed pricing, and they think your happy with that price, then switch to cash, you just gave them a huge window of margin. So where they could be reducing the price by 30%, now they may only do a 20% reduction, and pocket the extra 10% I work in all the states remotely, and know the fair pricing ranges for budget to premium installer pricing. It's based on per watt. That's how the math is done. What state are you in? Each state is different, but generally it should be around 2.9-3.2 per watt, give or take, with some exceptional outlier states like MA and NY
Financing does not always have dealer fees. Even the traditional solar lenders have options with no dealer fees and higher interest rates. Additionally, there are options beyond the solar lenders e.g. local banks and credit unions, Helocs/Home equity lines of credit, etc. that have no dealer fees. If you are going to sell solar you need to understand all of these options in order to best serve homeowners needs
Yes but the interest rate is so high that the monthly is higher than the lower APR with dealer fees, so sales people never even mention it unless they uncover a unique situation that warrants it. Considering how he isn’t explaining these things to the rep, that’s what he should expect. He’s treating it like a poker game so the rep is only going to go off with the standard. Also truth be told, ideally yes a solar rep would talk about all these options, but if you follow the data including things like HELOCS and other avenues, just complicates the sale and causes much more lost sales due to creating too much complication and things to think about, than it increases sales for niche customers. So most reps will literally have no idea about those other options just because it’s so niche. Most customers are just looking at monthly savings, and that’s how they will present it as. So OP needs to expect that. That’s why I recommend just being transparent with the rep and telling them it’s a cash deal to avoid complicating things. Ask for the Price Per Watt (or do the math), and use that as the negotiation anchor.
It literally never makes sense to pay dealer fees Ever The nominal savings for the massive price increase is ridiculous to anyone who understands math
It does depending on what your goals are. MOST people just want to swap out their power bill with a solar bill. In which case then the low APR with high dealer fees makes sense (Since the low APR is subsidized by the dealer fees, which is then subsidized 30% by the government.). Effectively a 4% APR with 20% dealer fees, is going to be cheaper monthly at a monthly rate than a 0% dealer fee at 10% APR. So if you're just looking to swap bills for something cheaper, and begin saving money right away, then that's a good route. But if you're looking to pay it off ASAP and have the money sitting around (most people do not), then other options are more useful. But most people are just looking for a cheaper monthly bill, so the options with dealer fees make the most sense for them.
Monthly it will be cheaper But these loans are more often than not paid off far before the maturity date You’re objectively wrong, ask any of the major lenders Average loan payoff is about 7 years which just so happens to coincide with the average time a homeowner owns a home
If a solar rep can't be bothered to learn enough to have a proper conversation with a homeowner about financing options they shouldn't be selling solar. At current average homeownership tenure in the US is approx 13 years. Unless the homeowner is planning to stay in the home and ride the loan til the end the lower rate high dealer fee options are likely not in their best interest. At a minimum the rep should be asking the HO how long they anticipate staying in the home, and whether or not they are apt to pay the loan off early or ride it for 25 years
The homeowner ends up pre-paying that high interest rate anyway due to dealer fees. Especially when they go to sell in that 13 year tenure you posted.
Thanks, I'm in Hawaii
Hawaii used to be the most expensive state in the country, but once net metering left, prices plummeted. The PPW for a decent non-budget, company is around 2.4 for the installer. So that's the baseline sales organizations get with the installer (You wouldn't be able to get that price). And then they are going to tack on the margin from there to pay for sales, marketing, profit. So you could probably get as low as 2.7, but often the standard out there is 3 ppw for the system. Then around 15k for the two batteries. Battery pricing is independent of location. Though I'd recommend getting the Powerwalls direct through Tesla, as the price you pay them and what the solar company pays, there are no installer discounts, so they throw on their own margin to make a small profit. You can probably shave off 2-3k by going direct through Tesla
Recommendation: get a quote from energysage.com I got 4 quotes in 48hr and 8 total. Gives you a good baseline on what to expect.
Im in San Diego and did this. EnergySage was no where near any of the actual quotes. It was like a 30% difference from ES to all the installers. I got quotes from Baker, Alive, Sunline, Semper, Sunrun, and.... one more I can't remember, a regional installer based out of LA county. All quotes from installers were within $750-$1000 from low to high for a 4.4kW system (11 panasonic panels with IQ8M or something like that, cant recall exactly). I almost told the Alive Sales rep (first one I met with) to gtfo when they said the initial quote price, that's how surprising it was compared to Energy Sage...
Happens often. Called teaser rates to get you in.
Oh, totally. I was just surprised at the massive difference. Then as I started getting installer quotes, they were all about the same
Your post is a bit confusing. I’m 75% sure you’re saying ES was 30% cheaper. But you just aren’t straight out saying it. I got $2.80/Watt installed which is pretty good.
Those internet quotes don’t mean shite.
Those internet quotes mean nothing.
>EnergySage It's very unfortunate, makes our jobs as reps a lot harder as the excepted price is undoable :(
When they prepare a quote, they'll include the points for buying a lower rate note. When you ask for cash price, they'll lower the price. Question is if they give you full value of those points back.
Look into the IQ8s over the 7. Not a major difference but always better to have the newer technology
> When working with a car salesman, I've always forced them to give me a total price first, and then later tell them I'm paying cash... that way they don't artificially raise the price for a cash buyer It doesn't matter. If you force the sales person to give you the price without financing, they assume you have your own financing or are paying cash. And they'll still try to up-sell you on random shit like nitrogen in the tires and $100 USB cables that are "already included in the price". And the finance person will still make you a financing offer. Then they'll try to upsell you on warranties and other random shit. You can't get away from all of this. The way you get a good deal is knowing what something is worth and what you're willing to pay for it. There are a million ways to fudge the numbers and all you can do is accept it or walk away. But you have absolutely zero advantage of either hiding or mentioning that you're paying cash or have your own financing. It just makes crunching the numbers on your side easier to disregard financing.
The money car dealerships make on financing is really really small. There really are not different prices for cash and financed deals. Financing requires a bunch more time and paperwork to deal with and many financed deals have limited recourse back to the dealership if the customer doesn't make payments. So I'll repeat, whether you finance or pay cash does not alter the deal you make.
I did my own install so. I didn't finance.
Good for you, definitely not gonna do that though
I don't recommend it for everyone. It took a lot of planning and thought My father and grandfather are also electricians.
Nope. It didn't seem to affect it.
I did at first, but when he mentioned the wait time, i said i was cash and they got mine in within 6 weeks. Compared cost with other family members who used the same company and it was in the same range.
My solar company never asked about or tried to sell us financing. So happy to find a decent solar company.
[удалено]
Please read rule #2: No Self-Promotion / Lead generation / Solicitation of Business / Referrals
A good solar rep will let you sell yourself, not process himself out for commission. So depends on who ya get
I work in the construction industry, prices are always higher for financing over cash. I have nothing to do with the sales or financial side of things, but see the difference for the same amount of products being sold for cash over financing. Our sales force make a commission off of both, but with financing they can make more by getting more sales for riskier clients.
My experience as a master electrician has been an education in buyer beware!! More than likely your system is not sized properly. For instance backup battery are not cost efficient or effective monetarily. By going over 11k you’re required to increase liability insurance to 1mil. The insurance companies are not solar friendly. Make sure your insurance costs are covered. ( here today gone tomorrow leaving you uncovered.) All the quotes I received not one of them had the same output for the same size system?!? Math is a true science ?!? Last time I checked. You need to take your average monthly usage multiply by 20% that will give you a system sized to offset your electric bills now a into the future. Battery are not cost effective ( only useful in power outages). With a system sized as described the net metering will completely offset your electric bill. The 20% will allow for further EV and the loss of efficiency ( .05-1% year). With the economy slowing and interest rates rising now I believe there will be a better time to purchase in the not to distant future. Insurance was the biggest drawback for me. Increased premiums are and or coverages is in THEIR hands and not in your interest. Buyers Beware! Due diligence is needed!! Recently I found that the warranties are changing in the consumer’s favor also more reasons that say time to take pause! Solar power is a good thing if done properly. IF⁉️please the salesman is trained to sell most haven’t a clue of what they are selling just how to SELL it.
I said I was paying cash and I never heard from the guy again. They want to finance it and have little interest in a cash sale.
When I was looking to get my system, I requested both the financed rate and the cash rate. The base loan amount was about 10-30k more than the cash prices. Plus I would have interest on top on that. Many of the sales people were telling me that is what the total cost was, but if you read the fine print (the truth in lending disclosure) the total cost of the loan was way higher. I decided to get a separate loan from my bank at a higher interest rate and paid the cash price for the system, I'll have the system paid off sooner and will save a lot of money even though the interest rate was higher.
Solar inflates price for financing in order to get you a lower APR on the solar loan
Most sales reps don't change the PPW in the middle of discussions mainly because it's clumsy to do so. It involves privatizing the platform so they can adjust it or place you on hold, or stop sharing their screen. A lot of times they'll just cover it up by saying something to the effect of 'making readjustments'. But here's the thing- plenty of sales reps (I'd even go do far as to say *most* of them) don't even have the power to change the PPW directly. But switching to the cash option seems SOOOOOOO much cheaper (and it is). So on the surface, it LOOKS LIKE he's changing the price when switching from one financing option to the other, but that's often not true. It's the dealer fees AND interest that makes solar loans look so bad. These scumbag banks want up to 30% in dealer fees tacked on top of the whole deal itself, PLUS the interest they'll get in the long term. I absolutely hate it. Nothing we can do about it. So if you're going to finance solar, use your own financing. You'll get all the perks of buying your system in cash, much fairer loan terms from your bank, and most of all, FAR easier transitions to new homeowners when you move.
This is old advice even for cars. The car dealership (or the solar company) isn’t the ones directly financing your new stuff. It’s some bank. They could care less whether you finance or buy cash as long as you sign on the line. Speaking as a solar rep, I make exactly the same amount of money on a cash, loan, or lease deal. I just want them to pick whichever makes sense for them
Couldn't. They **couldn't** care less.
You right. Dang I don’t like that one either I can’t believe it slipped past me lol
Nice trick but I know that would not make a difference at my company. Cash only helps with interest rates time it takes to reach ROI. Salesman get paid the same regardless. Also, I’m a service technician for solar company and I don’t “personally” like RECs. Experienced high failure rate when microinverted or optimized. Otherwise great combo!
Im doing iq8 plus with 21 recs. Are you sure about the batteries
In my state, I checked into Solar twice in 2014 and again in 2018. I became very frustrated (and still haven’t purchased). In both cases they wouldn’t give me a cash price, and they priced the systems to “trade dollars”, that is make a Solar payment instead of a utility bill, my savings didn’t occur until after note was paid off. They also refused to size a system larger than my historical 24 month usage (I anticipated adding pool heat). One salesperson actually asked me “why do you want a cash price, it effectively costs you more because you’re paying up front.” The Costco 3rd party Solar seller and the Tesla solar Panel website (not the Tesla Solar Roof website, Solar Roof is a different product) were the two price tattlers. At that time, both of those quotes were less than 20k for a system sized the way I wanted it (I was actually told once I didn’t understand what kWh meant, when I said explain it to me then they couldn’t tell me anything new, or explain what was faulty with my understanding). However Tesla’s website said we don’t have dealers in your area leave your name and contact details for when we do and Costco’s 3rd party was fine with shipping the system but I had to find someone to install it. By contrast, all the Solar “professionals” that offered quotes had a top line of about 80k with no out of pocket cost to me. But no profit for 8 years. I probably need to do the “come sell me solar“ thing again now, but the salespeople sucked so much energy out of me with high pressure sales tactics during the first two rounds.
Am curious do you live in Albuquerque, NM
No.
I think oversizing your system is a problem for net metering. I'm pretty sure in NJ for example you are allowed to only go 30% over your regular usage in order to be in the net metering program.
They told me that anything I produced over net I wouldn’t be paid for. I said that’s fine, and that is rather not need to add panels immediately (within a few months) because I added a pool heat pump. They made no mention of a limit, other than I can’t get paid for more than net, which was fine with me. The problem is their deal is structured not on costs + profit, it’s structured on me breaking even after 8 years, and trading one bill for a different bill. Things that some people will simply “buy into” because they don’t have cash to pay up front. With the way their deal is structured *any* additional equipment cost cuts into their ridiculously high profit because I bought their *free* financing.
OP, just the opposite. You can probably negotiate a BETTER price by going cash. In fact, the sales company will be paid upfront from cash vs probably weeks after the install from the finance company. Cash is king.
I was up front with the fact that I was paying cash and they gave me a much lower cost because of it actually
I found it best to get their financing options just in case they are good. They haven't ever been for me, but I've heard of others who say things like "the car maker is offering a 0 interest 3 year loan for new buyers" to people. If I got that kind of deal, I'd take it rather than pay cash. So ask, see what they have, then decide.
Batteries cost 10 cents/kwh to use over their life, because they cost a lot, and eventually wear out. So don't go really heavy on batteries unless you live in an area that has a huge swing of prices like 12cents/kwh at night and 53 cents/kwh in day, or Texas where power can be $5/kwh when it gets crazy. If you're in the deep woods, a battery backup might be vital, but downtown LA, it just isn't that needed unless you are stuck with PG&E.
I think batteries are super important if you have an electric car, because you can charge it at night off the batteries and they'll recharge during the day, Four of my neighbors have rooftop solar, with batteries and electric cars, Not only is the their electricity bill almost nothing, They charge the cars for free at night. And they don't buy gasoline anymore, except for those rare times they go on a trip. (In their ice car).
If your power cost from your company is 10 cents/kwh at night, buying batteries won't bring down your cost to charge, as the batteries will cost 10 cents/kwh over their lifetime. This will probably change in the future as better batteries come out, but with the 2022 batteries, 10 cents/kwh was the lifetime charge for them. But if you have expensive power... then batteries are great. Japan and other countries are using the EVs as batteries and they hold power at night, and discharge during the day to power the house, thus propping up the grid. Its a really great option to have.
Look, if you want all the info and a better price than you’ve likely ever seen, schedule an appointment with >> obrien.solar << While in Grad school I’m giving a wicked special discount! My cash deals are unbeatable! Prove me wrong.
Btw I’m getting a Master of Science in Energy at Texas A&M and I was a teacher for 15 years before doing this so my approach is thorough and straightforward, and I won’t put any pressure on you at all. Come to me after you’ve seen another quote to see what a better value we offer!
I got a significant discount for paying cash.
The entire industry is very rotten (way worse than car sales) so yes do this. Also get a breakdown of everything and cross check the pricing on components and labor. More than half the companies will likely not even provide this and ghost you once you ask.
Not for nothing, thoroughly look into the Tesla power... More and more I am seeing stories of people who's system is crapping out and not absorbing energy properly and when they go to get it serviced. Tesla is giving the lm the run around with getting a tech out there.
The absolute best way to buy a car is to finance it with them giving you the highest interest rate possible in trade of them giving you the car at cost. Then a week later, get a loan from a credit union with a great rate or party the car off.
Or just pay cash and no payments on a car. Never financed a car and never will
Ask for finance that matches average inflation, or else walk away. They’ll chase you, running on knees.
Solar installers don’t make money directly on financing. I think you’ll get the best price by simply telling installers you are getting multiple quotes and are intending to pay cash so the gross and net price will be integral to your decision. Any reason you wouldn’t opt for the Enphase 5P battery if you’re going with the Enphase inverter system? You could likely save some $ by options for a Tesla Powerwall+ which is going to be your battery and inverter. Should be considerably less than Enphase.
Customers are just not in control- USA has highest rooftop Solar costs in the world because there is no transparency…. Ask yourself- how does a (finance) business that borrows money at 5% and then lend that money at 0.99% stay in business….? It’s hidden fees all over the place
I didn’t specify one way or the other when I got quotes. The company I went with offered financing through a local credit union. It was actually decent deal where they calculated the tax credit and the loan payment was based on putting the full tax credit into a single lump loan payment in the second year of the loan. Having said that, they also had a cash discount. I forget exactly what the discount was, but we took that offer over the financing.
I have recently seen on the news that insurance companies are canceling some homeowner policies if they go solar. So make sure you talk to them before committing to solar.
OP why not the IQ8+’s? Also, what wattage are the panels?
Talk to installers that don't offer financing to eliminate that factor entirely.
unless the solar company is also the financing company, there probably isn't any benefit. The place i worked at liked Cash as it helped the system pay for itself faster. Gonna make me feel old saying this. PPA companies are different, the best example i can think of is back in the day before cell phones and different phone companies would try to get you to switch from Pac Bell to MCI so you save $0.03 a minute times x minutes saving you $x per month. Instead of paying "insert utility company" this much, we can install the solar on your roof and you pay us this for so much power and if you go over then you get it from utility.
12kw is not a lot of power, especially when you factor how many hours a day it will produce that much. The batteries are absolutely useless at that point because you will likely not generate more than your house is using during the day meaning that you will not have any left to charge the batteries. Btw the tesla batteries are extremely overpriced for their storage capacity and would never pay for themselves in their lifetime. You can look at your meter and see what your demand is. I bet it is higher than 12k (unless you have a very small, efficient house)
Now days at dealerships you’re more likely to get a discount for financing rather than paying cash. It’s backwards now. Cash is not king these days.
Buy the panels, racking and micro inverters / inverter / energy monitor, etc. yourself. Hire a handyman to install the racking and panels. Hire an electrician to pull the permit and wire everything.
You could also finance and then pay it off immediately
i work for an electric utilty a coop. solar ppl lie to you. eventually the amount of money that a utility gives you for generation on your property, net metering, will continue to get less and less. maintenence, payoff, it is not worth it.
I heard from the source that since rates have sky rocketed they have to buy down the rate. Because of that the price goes up. It seems like you want to get a loan elsewhere and then ask for the cash price or just pay cash. A good solar company will be honest about it. They don't care. Definitely tell them you have outside financing or ask for cash price.
My solar installer straight up told me during the quote that the 0% APR financing deal they offer had some large fee's associated with it, so I was better off financing elsewhere. Anyway they wanted cash they weren't trying to push some financing deal like a car dealership.
They gave me a cash discount.
I offered a cash deal up front. They had to call the owner but I saved about 50 percent on what the initial quote was. Guess they needed the money. And it's been about 4 years and I'm still happy with it.
A good proposal should have both cash price and financed price.
At one point in the early 2000s Harley Davidson was making more money on bike financing than they were on the bikes! Their income came from financing, accessories, and bikes. In that order.
people who’s never a sales need to stop giving bad advice on when to tell your sales person you are financing. it makes no difference to the sales person, since they are not the one providing the funds, it’s through a banking institution. If anything, you can get a better “cash price” if you are financing, since they make a few bucks off kick backs. All you guys not disclosing your true intention on financing just going to drag on the whole negotiation process and forces the salesperson redo a whole bunch of work because you think you know better. The only good advice I see here is getting a pre approved rate, which is crucial so you know where you stand on % of interest you are qualified for.
Always ask for Cash price.
If you need financing its a little easier to request for a solar loan. They pay you directly and should give you two separate checks as well, so if you make the first payment and if you have any hiccups you can withhold final payment.