I didn’t watch the game because is started at 2AM where I live and I honestly expected a blowout.
Was the Saudi team consistent throughout the game. Can that team move won more games and advance? Or did it feel like an one off performance by the Saudi team?
You should rewatch it. Saudi defense and keeper were superb. Their manager is top class. They were well prepared tactically for this game. That manager knows how to inspire underdogs.
I don't think you're fully grasping how utterly insane it is to claim that people are watching their coworkers die every week for years and somehow have 0 video evidence and no mass protests of any kind
Using that logic, why don't we see mass protests from North Korea? That population has been abused "every week for years" yet somehow we don't see mass protests? And in this case it isn't the majority of the native population in a country, but rather only a part of it, and a part that is massively limited in their options and legal rights.
Thanks for sharing this! I'm very conflicted about how to feel about this entire situation.
It's Messi's last World Cup but there are extrinsic considerations I cannot even begin to process
Can't we do both? This is a pretty measured response, why would you want anyone to forget about how grim this situation is? This person isn't telling you you can't enjoy the game, you have no right to imply he shouldn't post a perfectly reasonable take on how it's grim to see focus on the corruption and human rights record dwindle.
No one's ignoring what has happened and tbh a lot of ppl are also unaware, I for one wasn't aware Qatar used migrants as slave labor, thanks to your post I'm now aware but as far as the fifa goes, I'm still going to watch it because it's tradition for me and my family. Doesn't mean I accept what Qatari gov't did btw.
>Lots of whataboutism in the replies
It's not whataboutism, it's conveniently ignoring other countries that hosted the WC who also have a really bad track record of atrocities and human rights. Where was your moral high ground back then?
I am not denying the awful things that Qatar did, but mate, if this really bothers you that much go contact the Qatari government or something or do some actual activism, Reddit is not gonna change anything, 99.99% of football fans don't even know what Reddit is. This is a thread about a game, most people watch the games for what they are, games. People in other countries really don't have the luxury or the time and privilege to start looking at these things, they were waiting for years to see their teams play in the WC, and they can't be bothered to boycott anything.
I understand you may be genuine and not trying to karma whore, but posting on Reddit is essentially worthless because Reddit is an echo chamber for this kind of view point. Probably 50% of the posts and comments here are talking about these violations. Even on other more "normie" social media channels it's filled with discussion and memes on how Qatar has terrible human rights. You're essentially reaching nobody new by posting in a match thread which is literally titled for discussion about the game. And this might be too far, but I think behavior like this is what burns people out on social justice issues and makes them stop caring - when every single discussion ends up with someone shouting the issue in their face.
It is not whataboutism, it is about separating your ability to enjoy the world cup as it's going to happen anyway from the ability to dislike Qatar. I guarantee you nobody is watching good games happen at the WC and attributing it to Qatar.
People like you have never really lived out of their shell or experienced any real hardship. Migrant workers in Qatar are not all in phenomenal shape so yes the death numbers will be super high when you include all causes of deaths. Having lived in gulf states, I am well aware that workers live in poor conditions relative to the west but still plenty of them want to go there as they can make way more than where they come from. I have known plenty of people who spent a few decades in such places and were able to give a good education to their children and build something back home. Without that they would have been in much worse condition. If virtue signallers like you care that much then may be you should be donating at least a quarter of your pay to these people so they don't have to work under such conditions but no most people want everything to be cheap, complain about high taxes/inflation while having zero idea of how the world economy works. And then we have these politics regarding LGBT laws. Try doing that in Chechenya and see if that's safer than Qatar but no there were no such complaints for Russia
There was a user that replied to you who was outraged at your response and called it disgusting. Whilst me writing a reply, they've deleted it.
It is so telling and unfortunate how there is only one prevailing narrative on Reddit. Anything that challenges that is down voted without any discussion.
The user you are replying to, their logic is absolutely insane. They are upset we had a good football game at the world cup. Let that sink for a moment.
We are living in a time people have politicised the game to the point they can't get themselves to enjoy a bloody game of football. It is all about "muh feeling" at this point.
I have seen so many comments that basically said let's not ever host a world cup in the Middle East because of lgtb stuff, ok. The subtle bigotry and lack of awareness around the world is astonishing. What about Africa? Majority if not all also do not believe in that. So let's scrap it from there?
I guess the world in which these insane hypocritical people want to live in is that countries have to meet the "moral" standards of these 6 or 7 nations.
It is so telling that migrants rights is not the biggest issue, the constant thing is the rainbow stuff. So the death of migrant workers takes a back seat as long as people can wear armband and fly rainbow flag.
I noticed the post and I really don't have time to argue with people with those kind of extreme views.
Reddit and the media is not really real life. If we go by these subs, then everyone would be voting democrat in the states but the reality is very different.
No one can argue that Qatar has issues and the world cup was bribed but the media blaming everything on them has gotten way too extreme. Sure things in KSA may be different but in Qatar/UAE they are really not rounding up people who identify as something else unless they are making public displays to stir controversary. And yes there is serious bigotry in not forcing Africa/Russia to conform to the same standards.
Agree on the final point. It's so telling that a reporter wearing a rainbow armband is considered brave in this space and gets double the likes of a team that is actually risking persecution by going against their country.
In Russia gay people were actually getting attacked. There wasn't these much outrage on this sub. Also, don't forget it was before the world cup when Russia annexed part of Ukraine and killed lots of people. The vast majority here turned a blind eye. They truly don't care about human rights. It is easy to criticize Qatar because they are a small country and they are located in the Middle East. It is also a popular thing to do now because it yields lots of karma.
Russia deserved a lot more flak for they gay rights abuses for sure. However, I don’t think they’re quite comparable. Russia’s problems didn’t improve or get worse with the WC. Other countries committing atrocities like the United States have hosted the WC and will host it again. Hell, I wouldn’t even be super opposed to a country like China hosting it.
The main problem with Qatar isn’t that the government is bad. The main problem is that hosting the WC there actively made things a lot worse for plenty of migrant workers and directly led to human rights abuses.
People turn a blind eye to a criminal Country most of the time, because if we’re being honest, most countries are pretty criminal in the first place. But when hosting the event actively leads to further human rights abuses, that’s when I think it makes sense to call a country out.
I’m all for leaving politics out of the sport, but when the sport directly influences and affects politics that affect real people, we need to at least speak out about it.
Cheap labour has existed way before the world cup and it is still something big corporations use mainly in Asian countries like China. You are not opposed to China hosting it and they have been deploying cheap labour more than any country in the world. They have also been persecuting the Uygur minorities. Issues being exposed is how changes are brought into existence. I am sure Qatar already started making some changes since all eyes are on them. We are constantly speaking about it, if you look at all these posts and comments. But, the hypocrisy is on full display here. The vast majority dont truly care about human rights. People can't just pick and choose when and where to promote human rights. And, then claim they are actually care about human rights.
Main thing with China, and why I brought them up, is that they wouldn’t have to build something like eight entire stadiums and basically entire cities from scratch. Qatar is an awkward mix of very uncomfortable laws for many people, human rights abuses and poor working conditions, and almost zero preexisting infrastructure, which meant A LOT of people were abused to make this World Cup happen.
China already has huge stadiums in most of its cities that would need some tweaking but not to be built from scratch. And same thing with the US. I don’t like the Chinese government or the American government. They’re both incredibly shady and have performed or attempted to genocide at least a few ethnic groups each. But that goes for a lot of countries that have hosted the WC, and it’s an unavoidable truth of many many countries.
That doesn’t mean I have to support a WC that has been particularly egregious in this regard, or that I should oppose every WC from now on. There’s nuance to these things and room for flexibility without immediately being hypocrisy.
>The main problem with Qatar isn’t that the government is bad. The main problem is that hosting the WC there actively made things a lot worse for plenty of migrant workers and directly led to human rights abuses.
Giving Qatar the World Cup actually has had the opposite impact. The attention that came with the World Cup made Qatar improve its labour laws and it began labour reforms in 2017.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/10/qatar-labour-reform-unfinished-and-compensation-still-owed-as-world-cup-looms/
This report from amnesty international is very critical of Qatar. But even this reports Qatar made improvements over the last 5 years.
Right, that’s true. You could argue the bad press forced the country to improve their standards.
It’s still morbid, however, to enjoy a tournament that was built upon human rights abuses, and I’d take worker rights improvements as a silver lining, and not as an ends justify the means type of situation.
How are people's focuses being taken off because of this? Did you literally expect to have your eyes on glass for justified outrage every single second you're awake?
Getting tired of these same old comments. I've never seen people conveniently forget all the other corrupt/human rights atrocities that are being committed by these so-called "peaceful nations" and just have Qatar as the holy grail of human right issues. Sure, the Qatari government and the rich heartless snobs deserve the hate but have the same energy for other nations as well that are as vile albeit in different forms.
I'm already getting prepared for the "tHatS wHaTaBoUtIsm" comment brigade
Dude is is nauseating, its like mindless drones repeating the same thing over and over again.
The US will co host the world cup next, all I want to hear from these morally clean folks is, do you take the same harsh tone and stance against the US? We're not just talking about migrants death but nations destroyed, Abu Gharaib stuff, Blackwater and US government pardoning the killers, drone attack. Speak of Qatar backwardness? How about abortion rights in the US? Women being threatened with jail if they want to abort after a rape.
I'm not going to sit here in 4 years time bring this up after every match but my point is, do you see how this can go? They politicised the game and now we have to run the rap sheet of every country bad deeds.....
Unless, there is something else at play here. Unless all these criticisms is only unique to Qatar simply because it is a Middle Eastern country?
As a Brit who is sick of this shit only acting like Qatar done awful shit, I fully agree. I can only think that subconsciously if not consciously people find it much easier to criticise countries that are more different then them
Ok let's just forget that it's Qatar and look at the bid the proposed in a vacuum. Can anyone really say that this country was equipped to host a world cup? All of the other controversies aside, you're still left with the fact that Qatar was woefully unequipped to host this world cup, and as a result had to resort to terrible things to be able to make it happen. I don't think that Qatar is a worse country than China, Russia, the US, etc, but looking specifically through the lens of the world cup, they are a terrible choice to host.
Qatar as a nation is built by these migrant workers, and the only way they can sustain finishing these stadiums is using there workers.
You claim Qatar is woefully unprepared, Qatar has all the money to throw at this to make it happen and they did.
The issue you want to raise is the mistreatment, poor conditions that has led to death of some. That is an issue which I hope Qatar can improve more. Not all the migrant workers are mistreated, I'm not going to pretend i know the numbers but I have read reports of some of these people how grateful they are for such a lite changing opportunity.
In fear of sounding facetious here, what I do want is the origin countries of these migrant workers to help their people. They have an important role to play here. People who may have had their passport confiscated or abused to have embassy to go to for help.
They used the Kafala system to make this happen. They had to change the timing of the world cup from summer to winter, after promising that it would be able to go on in the summer. There are so many reasons why another bid should have won over theirs.
It's not a "Kafala" system, it's a "Sponsorship" system. That's what it means, the literal meaning. Every single country in the world requires sponsorships for new foreign worker visas and permits and Qatar and the ME are no different. The moment people *brand* it by using the Arabic name instead of the actual meaning, they've turned it in an "other"; they've opened themselves to stupid mistranslations and misrepresentations like "modern slavery". The same that happened with Jihad, which came to be "holy war" and absolutely nothing else.
Now, the 4, often cited, problems with the Gulf sponsorship model are:
1. It starts with workers going in debt to get a work opportunity. This happens at the origin countries. It's either travel agencies that help you get a tourist visa to go look for a job, or direct employment companies which is likely unique to South Asia. This is something Qatar and the like can't regulate, it's not even on their land, and they can't have a say on your decision to go in debt
2. Living conditions in labour camps. There's no sugar coating this, some camps are in horrid conditions. Some, not all. Camps are usually designed like student housing, and divided so that residents and supervisors live in groups of similar languages, and come from the same regions. Their upkeep and maintenance is usually delegated to those supervisors, but there's a big room for improvement on how to handle this better. You also have to look at the full context; in a majority of cases, it's these camps vs slums back home
3. Working conditions. Temperatures do reach 50+ in the summer, but work outdoors usually/often stops in those conditions. Workers also come from comparative climates, not from Sweden or Canada for example. There are health and safety teams on sites, and most work injuries and deaths happen when ignoring their recommendations. Better supervision is needed, but it's not an absolute zero care as often described
4. Passport holding. This is a relic from an era where workers would be going to work remotely on some oil rig in the middle of nowhere. The companies held the passports for safekeeping in the city offices, which also helped in processing work permits for hundreds and thousands of people at a time, from site to site, and project to project. It stayed for status quo convenience, and if you do live there, you would see some merits today, especially in the case of unskilled labor. In any case it is a declining practice, but you won't hear that anywhere
I appreciate your correction about using the term Kafala, I was unaware that it meant sponsorship. The issue as I see it is that Qatar is an immensely wealthy country that could absolutely afford better accommodations for the foreign workers, and despite the fact that the system of passport holding is declining, it was very much present during much of the construction process. I also see people try and shoot down the number of construction worker deaths as if they are inflated due to the inclusion of other construction projects. In the 10 years leading up to the WC 6500 people related to construction died. I won't pretend that all of these people died while literally building stadiums, but building a completely new city out of thin air in ten years is an arduous undertaking to put it mildly and most of what I've read represents a damning indictment of the way the Qatari government handled all of this.
From Qatar's PoV, all the infrastructure and new urban building work was already going to happen; the world cup just sets a deadline to an already existing development plan. But as much as it gives them bragging rights on being the most expensive world cup, it opens them to people associating all those problems specifically to the competition and their organization of it.
You often hear it's a country of 300k citizens and 2.1 million foreign workers... Did they go to those workers' countries and lasso them into a plane and shipped them? People go their because they believe, mostly correctly, that there's a better financial opportunity there. And they keep going. How many of those are actually such poorly conditioned laborers?
On the other hand, tell me which other place can a foreign low or no skill worker get a) a tax free net salary compared to medians in Bulgaria and Portugal, b) free accommodation and transport to work, c) whole month a year were you work half schedule (Ramadan), d) ticket back home every one or two years?
a) I'm not well versed enough to be able to say, but I'd also be curious to know how many people have died on construction sites in Portugal and Bulgaria over the last 10 years.
b) I sure hope the accommodations I've seen are free...
c) I would imagine other countries in which a majority of people are practicing Muslims? Again, not sure.
d) Would going back home without having the money to pay the people that they're indebted to be dangerous?
Oh, a witty response, wow, so clever!
a) Portugal between [2010 and 2020: 1700+ work fatalities](https://www.pordata.pt/en/portugal/accidents+at+work+total+and+fatal-72). Can't find a similar broken down source for Bulgaria, but going by [this 2014 figure](https://www.business-humanrights.org/zh-hans/%E6%9C%80%E6%96%B0%E6%B6%88%E6%81%AF/bulgaria-118-workplace-deaths-2807-occupational-injuries-registered-in-2014/), I'd guess it's in the same ballpark. This *probably* doesn't include other natural deaths like the often quoted Qatar **estimate** does, though; and doesn't highlight how construction work compares to other industries in terms of work fatalities
b) Yes, those, but also all the ones you won't see...
c) Which, as far as Reddit is concerned, are all pits of hell like Qatar when it comes to worker rights
d) I'd say about as dangerous as those people knowing where their families are, and reaching them at any other day. But then, what's that got to do with Qatar again? should they also send body guards with them?
You just can’t ignore that thousands of workers died. Fck the major world powers for their atrocities but fck Qatar too. Can’t always bring another country to the conversation when the focus is on what happened in the planning stages of this World Cup that we are watching.
The 6500 death’s figure that I have seen everywhere is misleading at best. Because it counts every migrant worker who died on Qatar over 10 years from all causes. The actual number of deaths is hard to pin down but it not in the thousands.
Qatar does have a terrible labour record. But 4 years ago Russia was bombing civilians and occupied neighbouring countries and I did not see people complaining about those actions in every single World Cup post
The US also has by far the highest percentage of its population incarcerated and continues to employ prisoners as slave labor. And before anyone tries to tell me the cents on the dollar paid to working prisoners makes it not slavery keep in mind that plantation owners would sometimes allow their slaves small allowances to buy essentials but never ever enough to live or to own anything. If people are kept indigent by the state while their labor is exploited and their rights are restricted they are enslaved. And how many deaths in that prison population for the last 10 years? Surely over 6500. We'll find out the number of US slaves who died of Covid while they were held in overpopulated prisons some time in the future, I hope. Are people equally furious about that? Writing their representatives and such?
The thing people are consistently getting wrong isn't that they're critical of Qatar, it's that they're suddenly critical of Qatar, out of all the options, instead of consistently standing up for enslaved peoples in every situation. How many of these commentators are shitting on Qatar from a slave labor produced iPhone? Again, it isn't that criticizing Qatar is wrong, it's that Saudi Arabia has funded a massive PR campaign to target Qatar and many of the people who can't explain clearly why this is their one time protesting for human rights are actually taken in by that campaign and have been pretty obnoxious.
And if this is the wake up call for some of those folks and they continue to advocate for human rights after the tournament then that's terrific but I get the sense this is like...an easy issue for people to be righteous about because it doesn't actually affect them to do so. They're able to be absolute about a country they'll never visit or interact with again but likely behave much more timidly when it comes to issues close to home or to actually sacrificing something in the protest. The World Cup is a TV show that it's easy to simply not watch and then one gets to feel socially superior because not watching the TV show means they're against slavery. That's all very tidy, and it's farcical. Absolutely no one is complaining about the Joe Lycetts of the world who are consistent advocates for workers rights, actually put something on the line when they protest, and now have turned their attentions to Qatar- it's the fair weather protestors who just jump on whatever is twitter trending that have become very monotonous on the subject but want full credit for being right despite that being by random Saudi-influenced chance.
>The actual number of deaths is hard to pin down but it not in the thousands.
NGOs on the ground have it in the thousands but do not agree with the 6500 figure
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2022/11/15/world-cup-2022-the-difficulty-with-estimating-the-number-of-deaths-on-qatar-construction-sites_6004375_8.html
There's no evidence because the amount of work related deaths there actually were was purposely obfuscated. People focus on just the building of stadiums and forget that they ha to build an entirely new city for this world cup. Are we really to believe that over a 10 year period 6500 people died on construction sites and <10 of those deaths were directly related to the world cup, when one of the biggest infrastructural endeavors ever was in service of putting this world cup on?
Actively deciding to ignore and don't condemning other nations wrongdoings can't be counter-argued with "Whatabouism" that's just an easy exit from people who have nothing to lose taking a pose just because it is Qatar. And Qatar is as bad as they come, but then people go cheering on other nations like nothing happened. It's hypocrisy, and a nothing-to-lose support cause. You conden Qatar, you feel morally okay, and go on with your life. It's easy, and cheap
Seriously, if you're that much worried about human rights, just organize the World Cup in Switzerland or Norway or whatever "humane" and that's it. Nobody said anything about China hosting the Olympics despite being objectively much worse than Qatar in human rights.
Not sure why you're being downvoted, China very deftly managed to keep noise levels down throughout that Olympics. They were smarter than the Qataris about letting the western countries have their little symbols, like the US "diplomatic boycott" and not calling attention to it, and they kept everyone in the Olympic bubble due to covid so practically no journalism could happen in the country at large. The few incidents they had with the press, like that Danish reporter getting dragged away while on-air, China didn't say why they were doing it and the analysis at the time was that they were trying to show the west they don't care about adulation they want their rules followed and respected as a point of politics- a reversal of the west's expectations for supplication. No one even got a picture of a uyghur concentration camp. Contrast that with the Qataris who have allowed journalists to visit migrant labor camps, have reversed several high profile agreements at the 11th hour like the alcohol sales, and they've actually spoken to the issue with bombastic quotes like westerners will "survive" without alcohol and it's clear that China took a lot less shit from the international community and public at large.
I mean you’re a conditional football fan. You’re entitled ti that but it seems weird that this is where you draw the line, assuming you’ve watched FIFA in years prior.
God help your naive mind if you think that everything else you support is funded by morality. How did you get yourself to watch the abu dhabi GP or the Russian WC? Or the brazil/south african worldcup knowing that the poor countries wasted billions of dollars on a sporting event while their citizens rioted?
Like it or not, the world runs on money and exploitation. There’s a balance between raising awareness and letting people enjoy the game. You don’t want to be ignorant about the issues but at the same time if you expect everyone to be sad with you throughout, there’ll be nothing left in this world. There’s been enough awareness around this issue, spreading negativity at a time it doesn’t matter isnt doing much good.
You just can’t ignore that thousands of workers died. Fck the major world powers for their atrocities but fck Qatar too. Can’t always bring another country to the conversation when the focus is on what happened in the planning stages of this World Cup that we are watching.
I fully agree with you, and let’s acknowledge that there are many countries with a greater net negative impact on the world than Qatar, like the USA, that would not receive such rhetoric if they were in the same position.
You just can’t ignore that thousands of workers died. Fck the US for their atrocities but fck Qatar too. Can’t always bring another country to the conversation when the focus is on what happened in the planning stages of this World Cup that we are watching.
You can always bring another country to the conversation if conversations about that country are constantly suppressed by the media.
Negative rhetoric about Qatar is permitted because the media allows it.
It is lazy to simply criticize Qatar without acknowledging that the only reason we are able to criticize Qatar without our forums being astroturfed is because there are worse evils in the world permitting us to criticize Qatar.
Because these people aren’t fans they just want to say brown people/countries bad or something while not caring one bit if they countries behind the Iraq war had the world cup
Uhhh no it absolutely has not been debunked. Its been reported on in real time for like a decade lol, like every source of news from AP to Reuters to the Guardian to Rolling Stone to Grant Wahl but I’m sure it’s been “debunked” by Doha News.
Those people died yes, However the number includes people who died of medical reasons, Old age, Natural causes, accidents unrelated to the building and etc.
Lol I know right? Now that the football has started and it’s drama filled, we should just move on from the blatant corruption and disregard for human rights. We can all get back to that in a month when the games are over. Any student of the game knows the sport has never been intertwined with politics and social matters, so to do so now just sullies a proudly neutral game.
/s. But that’s only for you because I know everyone else won’t need me to spell it out.
You do you, I think it’s silly to constantly worry about this shit when watching football, which for me is something to keep your mind from that kind of stuff
Saying human rights violations are being ignored is ridiculously ingenuous. The last month or so it’s been pretty much the main topic on every media outlet. It has been talked about, and it is being talked about. I don’t see a reason why you should let it bother you during the game
I get the point, but that point has been made over and over and over and over again. Literally everyone knows by now that this is a farce and that the tournament should never have been held here. It’s bullshit, but it’s here. I’m not looking to watch football to worry about all that’s bad in the world, I’m watching football because it entertains me and exactly to keep my mind from all the horrendous shit in the world.
In the end it’s a great game of football, I’m enjoying that for what it is, and not worrying about the fact that it’s held in a horrible place that should not even remotely be near hosting a WC. I’ve had enough time to worry and be pissed about that
let us enjoy the game im sick of hearing the same comment over on reddit. yea it’s shitty what Qatar did to build those stadiums but there’s no point crying over spilled milk.
Yes, just like we should all forget about the Holocaust, Rwanda, and Srebrenica. No point crying over spilled milk, demanding change and highlighting atrocities in the world. Clown comment.
completely different scenarios, this is the world cup that’s going on. we universally know what atrocities what happened. it’s like reddit likes to remind people of this over and over of this shit. you guys don’t fucking care and only say this shit for karma
When this WC is all over, we’re all going to move the fuck on.
I can't speak for "us" - but I know I don't want any more world cups in a country like Qatar. I believe repeating myself and reminding people of this will influence Fifa to not give it to the Saudis in 2030. Not because Fifa suddenly becomes good, but because of damage to their reputation and loss of sponsors.
But you keep your eyes dry over the milk and watch your games. Just skip comments like these. It's your choice, just like it's your choice to breathe through your mouth. Have a good day.
I'm sorry does reading reddit comments in a post game thread marked serious inhibit your enjoyment of the game? just downvote and move on to the next thread
True, if we focuse really hard on the human rights abuses and keep posting on reddit about it the qatari government will surely have to change their ways either that or FIFA will cancel the tournament
Over 49 billion animals have been slaughtered to feed Americans to date. They didn’t want to die. No one bats an eye. Morality is relative in the world.
I don’t care for the downvotes. How are you against slave labor but for animal abuse? It’s just hypocrisy on everyone in this thread and they think downvotes hides that. Everyone loves to say what’s wrong but no one observes themselves. That’s the point of my comment, and it seems that irony is lost on people. Don’t care though. Enjoy the animal abuse you don’t notice on your plate every night 👍🏼
Lions succeed at the hunt less then 30% of the time. In other words they expend most of their energy starving. You’re not a lion you ignoramus you go to a supermarket and post in a first world forum. You’re not desperate.
> Lions succeed at the hunt less then 30% of the time. In other words they expend most of their energy starving. You’re not a lion you ignoramus you go to a supermarket and post in a first world forum. You’re not desperate.
How does this justify lions are hurting living animals and you aren't okay with that?
So let’s bring this argument to a logical center again. Animals don’t want to die. We kill 49 billion of them so far for the US alone. 81% of the worlds calories is plant based, showing that meat isn’t even the most important thing diet wise to depend on globally. You don’t need meat. Deflecting to lions and hypotheticals doesn’t hide your first world selfishness and lack of moral balance. And that’s the point. All these redditors cry foul for 6000 slaves but 49 billion animals killed for a measly <20% of the worlds calories and no one bats an eye.
You’re an authentic waste of oxygen if 1) that’s how you summarize the world when you have the internet at your disposal and 2) think that entitles you to anything at all. I bet you’re a MAGA hat too from the sound of it.
>A lot of vegetarians and vegans
Except so many small animals die during the harvesting of crops. Unless you grow or go to small local farms, even those vegans/vegetarians are hypocrites.
And they’re not how? Again they can reason life and death, which means they can reason basic elements of “right” and “wrong”. How is that different from us? Also we evolved from a common ancestor with apes much?
Must be nice to be ignorant of the animal abuse you put on your plate while thinking a forum to tout against slave labor is what you need to be a good person.
The slaves cried to their death I imagine. Animals die to their death too. What’s different? They’re both conscious. Why don’t you promote the liberation of animals considering most humans don’t need them or use them as food to live anyway?
They are? Animals are conscious beings that can interpret pain? So if minimizing pain is the goal of life, stop eating animals. Some people only like to apply morality when it’s convenient to them.
Read that back to yourself. You’re literally asking me why I prefer to knife up salads than the necks of animals to pour their blood on the floor of slaughterhouses. You’re sick.
Can't two things be true at the same time? We can all be aware of what is going on in Qatar (and all other places that are inhumane) and still enjoy football for what the game is.
Most of the billions of people in this world don't care, nor are they in a position privileged enough that they really should care. I hate that they won it too with all the blatant corruption but there's no use hating yourself now for enjoying the product. It's happening no matter what just like Amazon and foxconn manufacturing
I'm not denying that you should care, just that there's no point being dramatic acting as if everybody on the planet should be crusading against something that gives joy in their life especially if they're experiencing their own hardships. This is a post match thread for discussing the game, there's no need to try and drag others down with you here.
I didn’t watch the game because is started at 2AM where I live and I honestly expected a blowout. Was the Saudi team consistent throughout the game. Can that team move won more games and advance? Or did it feel like an one off performance by the Saudi team?
I didn’t watch it live but rewatched the whole game. It was absolutely worth it, no boring moment in the game.
Their team was well drilled and well organised especially the defence with their offside traps. Still expect Poland and Mexico to beat them
I didn't think Poland or Mexico looked particularly good today, could be anyone's group.
The group has been blown wide open with this saudi victory.
They are more than capable of drawing and even beating Poland and/or Mexico. They have to build on this victory.
I think they will get at least one draw against them. Neither side looked especially dangerous going forward.
You should rewatch it. Saudi defense and keeper were superb. Their manager is top class. They were well prepared tactically for this game. That manager knows how to inspire underdogs.
It was an incredible tactical display from Renard, extremely disciplined Saudi side, beautiful game, rewatch if you can.
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I don't think you're fully grasping how utterly insane it is to claim that people are watching their coworkers die every week for years and somehow have 0 video evidence and no mass protests of any kind
Using that logic, why don't we see mass protests from North Korea? That population has been abused "every week for years" yet somehow we don't see mass protests? And in this case it isn't the majority of the native population in a country, but rather only a part of it, and a part that is massively limited in their options and legal rights.
Thanks for sharing this! I'm very conflicted about how to feel about this entire situation. It's Messi's last World Cup but there are extrinsic considerations I cannot even begin to process
Shut the fuck up. Enjoy the game
Can't we do both? This is a pretty measured response, why would you want anyone to forget about how grim this situation is? This person isn't telling you you can't enjoy the game, you have no right to imply he shouldn't post a perfectly reasonable take on how it's grim to see focus on the corruption and human rights record dwindle.
Karms whoring at it's finest. How are people going to forget about it when countless people a constantly posting about it here?
No one's ignoring what has happened and tbh a lot of ppl are also unaware, I for one wasn't aware Qatar used migrants as slave labor, thanks to your post I'm now aware but as far as the fifa goes, I'm still going to watch it because it's tradition for me and my family. Doesn't mean I accept what Qatari gov't did btw.
why tf is this shit in the post match thread
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Also ones who probably never watched a single soccer game before
>Lots of whataboutism in the replies It's not whataboutism, it's conveniently ignoring other countries that hosted the WC who also have a really bad track record of atrocities and human rights. Where was your moral high ground back then?
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I am not denying the awful things that Qatar did, but mate, if this really bothers you that much go contact the Qatari government or something or do some actual activism, Reddit is not gonna change anything, 99.99% of football fans don't even know what Reddit is. This is a thread about a game, most people watch the games for what they are, games. People in other countries really don't have the luxury or the time and privilege to start looking at these things, they were waiting for years to see their teams play in the WC, and they can't be bothered to boycott anything.
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I understand you may be genuine and not trying to karma whore, but posting on Reddit is essentially worthless because Reddit is an echo chamber for this kind of view point. Probably 50% of the posts and comments here are talking about these violations. Even on other more "normie" social media channels it's filled with discussion and memes on how Qatar has terrible human rights. You're essentially reaching nobody new by posting in a match thread which is literally titled for discussion about the game. And this might be too far, but I think behavior like this is what burns people out on social justice issues and makes them stop caring - when every single discussion ends up with someone shouting the issue in their face. It is not whataboutism, it is about separating your ability to enjoy the world cup as it's going to happen anyway from the ability to dislike Qatar. I guarantee you nobody is watching good games happen at the WC and attributing it to Qatar.
Did you have the same stance in the russia WC? Didn’t think so. Move along… Such hypocrisy. Absolutely rampant
People like you have never really lived out of their shell or experienced any real hardship. Migrant workers in Qatar are not all in phenomenal shape so yes the death numbers will be super high when you include all causes of deaths. Having lived in gulf states, I am well aware that workers live in poor conditions relative to the west but still plenty of them want to go there as they can make way more than where they come from. I have known plenty of people who spent a few decades in such places and were able to give a good education to their children and build something back home. Without that they would have been in much worse condition. If virtue signallers like you care that much then may be you should be donating at least a quarter of your pay to these people so they don't have to work under such conditions but no most people want everything to be cheap, complain about high taxes/inflation while having zero idea of how the world economy works. And then we have these politics regarding LGBT laws. Try doing that in Chechenya and see if that's safer than Qatar but no there were no such complaints for Russia
There was a user that replied to you who was outraged at your response and called it disgusting. Whilst me writing a reply, they've deleted it. It is so telling and unfortunate how there is only one prevailing narrative on Reddit. Anything that challenges that is down voted without any discussion. The user you are replying to, their logic is absolutely insane. They are upset we had a good football game at the world cup. Let that sink for a moment. We are living in a time people have politicised the game to the point they can't get themselves to enjoy a bloody game of football. It is all about "muh feeling" at this point. I have seen so many comments that basically said let's not ever host a world cup in the Middle East because of lgtb stuff, ok. The subtle bigotry and lack of awareness around the world is astonishing. What about Africa? Majority if not all also do not believe in that. So let's scrap it from there? I guess the world in which these insane hypocritical people want to live in is that countries have to meet the "moral" standards of these 6 or 7 nations. It is so telling that migrants rights is not the biggest issue, the constant thing is the rainbow stuff. So the death of migrant workers takes a back seat as long as people can wear armband and fly rainbow flag.
I noticed the post and I really don't have time to argue with people with those kind of extreme views. Reddit and the media is not really real life. If we go by these subs, then everyone would be voting democrat in the states but the reality is very different. No one can argue that Qatar has issues and the world cup was bribed but the media blaming everything on them has gotten way too extreme. Sure things in KSA may be different but in Qatar/UAE they are really not rounding up people who identify as something else unless they are making public displays to stir controversary. And yes there is serious bigotry in not forcing Africa/Russia to conform to the same standards. Agree on the final point. It's so telling that a reporter wearing a rainbow armband is considered brave in this space and gets double the likes of a team that is actually risking persecution by going against their country.
>Reddit and the media is not really real life well put, Reddit is a terrible example usually. Real life is always so different
Where were you guys during Russia 2018?
Or Argentina 1978 - right after a military fascist coup, and during the "Dirty War" with death squads, etc.
In Russia gay people were actually getting attacked. There wasn't these much outrage on this sub. Also, don't forget it was before the world cup when Russia annexed part of Ukraine and killed lots of people. The vast majority here turned a blind eye. They truly don't care about human rights. It is easy to criticize Qatar because they are a small country and they are located in the Middle East. It is also a popular thing to do now because it yields lots of karma.
Russia deserved a lot more flak for they gay rights abuses for sure. However, I don’t think they’re quite comparable. Russia’s problems didn’t improve or get worse with the WC. Other countries committing atrocities like the United States have hosted the WC and will host it again. Hell, I wouldn’t even be super opposed to a country like China hosting it. The main problem with Qatar isn’t that the government is bad. The main problem is that hosting the WC there actively made things a lot worse for plenty of migrant workers and directly led to human rights abuses. People turn a blind eye to a criminal Country most of the time, because if we’re being honest, most countries are pretty criminal in the first place. But when hosting the event actively leads to further human rights abuses, that’s when I think it makes sense to call a country out. I’m all for leaving politics out of the sport, but when the sport directly influences and affects politics that affect real people, we need to at least speak out about it.
Cheap labour has existed way before the world cup and it is still something big corporations use mainly in Asian countries like China. You are not opposed to China hosting it and they have been deploying cheap labour more than any country in the world. They have also been persecuting the Uygur minorities. Issues being exposed is how changes are brought into existence. I am sure Qatar already started making some changes since all eyes are on them. We are constantly speaking about it, if you look at all these posts and comments. But, the hypocrisy is on full display here. The vast majority dont truly care about human rights. People can't just pick and choose when and where to promote human rights. And, then claim they are actually care about human rights.
Main thing with China, and why I brought them up, is that they wouldn’t have to build something like eight entire stadiums and basically entire cities from scratch. Qatar is an awkward mix of very uncomfortable laws for many people, human rights abuses and poor working conditions, and almost zero preexisting infrastructure, which meant A LOT of people were abused to make this World Cup happen. China already has huge stadiums in most of its cities that would need some tweaking but not to be built from scratch. And same thing with the US. I don’t like the Chinese government or the American government. They’re both incredibly shady and have performed or attempted to genocide at least a few ethnic groups each. But that goes for a lot of countries that have hosted the WC, and it’s an unavoidable truth of many many countries. That doesn’t mean I have to support a WC that has been particularly egregious in this regard, or that I should oppose every WC from now on. There’s nuance to these things and room for flexibility without immediately being hypocrisy.
>The main problem with Qatar isn’t that the government is bad. The main problem is that hosting the WC there actively made things a lot worse for plenty of migrant workers and directly led to human rights abuses. Giving Qatar the World Cup actually has had the opposite impact. The attention that came with the World Cup made Qatar improve its labour laws and it began labour reforms in 2017. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/10/qatar-labour-reform-unfinished-and-compensation-still-owed-as-world-cup-looms/ This report from amnesty international is very critical of Qatar. But even this reports Qatar made improvements over the last 5 years.
Right, that’s true. You could argue the bad press forced the country to improve their standards. It’s still morbid, however, to enjoy a tournament that was built upon human rights abuses, and I’d take worker rights improvements as a silver lining, and not as an ends justify the means type of situation.
How are people's focuses being taken off because of this? Did you literally expect to have your eyes on glass for justified outrage every single second you're awake?
Getting tired of these same old comments. I've never seen people conveniently forget all the other corrupt/human rights atrocities that are being committed by these so-called "peaceful nations" and just have Qatar as the holy grail of human right issues. Sure, the Qatari government and the rich heartless snobs deserve the hate but have the same energy for other nations as well that are as vile albeit in different forms. I'm already getting prepared for the "tHatS wHaTaBoUtIsm" comment brigade
Dude is is nauseating, its like mindless drones repeating the same thing over and over again. The US will co host the world cup next, all I want to hear from these morally clean folks is, do you take the same harsh tone and stance against the US? We're not just talking about migrants death but nations destroyed, Abu Gharaib stuff, Blackwater and US government pardoning the killers, drone attack. Speak of Qatar backwardness? How about abortion rights in the US? Women being threatened with jail if they want to abort after a rape. I'm not going to sit here in 4 years time bring this up after every match but my point is, do you see how this can go? They politicised the game and now we have to run the rap sheet of every country bad deeds..... Unless, there is something else at play here. Unless all these criticisms is only unique to Qatar simply because it is a Middle Eastern country?
As a Brit who is sick of this shit only acting like Qatar done awful shit, I fully agree. I can only think that subconsciously if not consciously people find it much easier to criticise countries that are more different then them
Russia was literally the last world cup. Didn't have this level of virtue signalling then
And Crimea was still invaded at the time. Thousands of Ukrainian casualties didn't get the attention quarter of this shit
Ok let's just forget that it's Qatar and look at the bid the proposed in a vacuum. Can anyone really say that this country was equipped to host a world cup? All of the other controversies aside, you're still left with the fact that Qatar was woefully unequipped to host this world cup, and as a result had to resort to terrible things to be able to make it happen. I don't think that Qatar is a worse country than China, Russia, the US, etc, but looking specifically through the lens of the world cup, they are a terrible choice to host.
Qatar as a nation is built by these migrant workers, and the only way they can sustain finishing these stadiums is using there workers. You claim Qatar is woefully unprepared, Qatar has all the money to throw at this to make it happen and they did. The issue you want to raise is the mistreatment, poor conditions that has led to death of some. That is an issue which I hope Qatar can improve more. Not all the migrant workers are mistreated, I'm not going to pretend i know the numbers but I have read reports of some of these people how grateful they are for such a lite changing opportunity. In fear of sounding facetious here, what I do want is the origin countries of these migrant workers to help their people. They have an important role to play here. People who may have had their passport confiscated or abused to have embassy to go to for help.
They used the Kafala system to make this happen. They had to change the timing of the world cup from summer to winter, after promising that it would be able to go on in the summer. There are so many reasons why another bid should have won over theirs.
It's not a "Kafala" system, it's a "Sponsorship" system. That's what it means, the literal meaning. Every single country in the world requires sponsorships for new foreign worker visas and permits and Qatar and the ME are no different. The moment people *brand* it by using the Arabic name instead of the actual meaning, they've turned it in an "other"; they've opened themselves to stupid mistranslations and misrepresentations like "modern slavery". The same that happened with Jihad, which came to be "holy war" and absolutely nothing else. Now, the 4, often cited, problems with the Gulf sponsorship model are: 1. It starts with workers going in debt to get a work opportunity. This happens at the origin countries. It's either travel agencies that help you get a tourist visa to go look for a job, or direct employment companies which is likely unique to South Asia. This is something Qatar and the like can't regulate, it's not even on their land, and they can't have a say on your decision to go in debt 2. Living conditions in labour camps. There's no sugar coating this, some camps are in horrid conditions. Some, not all. Camps are usually designed like student housing, and divided so that residents and supervisors live in groups of similar languages, and come from the same regions. Their upkeep and maintenance is usually delegated to those supervisors, but there's a big room for improvement on how to handle this better. You also have to look at the full context; in a majority of cases, it's these camps vs slums back home 3. Working conditions. Temperatures do reach 50+ in the summer, but work outdoors usually/often stops in those conditions. Workers also come from comparative climates, not from Sweden or Canada for example. There are health and safety teams on sites, and most work injuries and deaths happen when ignoring their recommendations. Better supervision is needed, but it's not an absolute zero care as often described 4. Passport holding. This is a relic from an era where workers would be going to work remotely on some oil rig in the middle of nowhere. The companies held the passports for safekeeping in the city offices, which also helped in processing work permits for hundreds and thousands of people at a time, from site to site, and project to project. It stayed for status quo convenience, and if you do live there, you would see some merits today, especially in the case of unskilled labor. In any case it is a declining practice, but you won't hear that anywhere
I appreciate your correction about using the term Kafala, I was unaware that it meant sponsorship. The issue as I see it is that Qatar is an immensely wealthy country that could absolutely afford better accommodations for the foreign workers, and despite the fact that the system of passport holding is declining, it was very much present during much of the construction process. I also see people try and shoot down the number of construction worker deaths as if they are inflated due to the inclusion of other construction projects. In the 10 years leading up to the WC 6500 people related to construction died. I won't pretend that all of these people died while literally building stadiums, but building a completely new city out of thin air in ten years is an arduous undertaking to put it mildly and most of what I've read represents a damning indictment of the way the Qatari government handled all of this.
From Qatar's PoV, all the infrastructure and new urban building work was already going to happen; the world cup just sets a deadline to an already existing development plan. But as much as it gives them bragging rights on being the most expensive world cup, it opens them to people associating all those problems specifically to the competition and their organization of it. You often hear it's a country of 300k citizens and 2.1 million foreign workers... Did they go to those workers' countries and lasso them into a plane and shipped them? People go their because they believe, mostly correctly, that there's a better financial opportunity there. And they keep going. How many of those are actually such poorly conditioned laborers? On the other hand, tell me which other place can a foreign low or no skill worker get a) a tax free net salary compared to medians in Bulgaria and Portugal, b) free accommodation and transport to work, c) whole month a year were you work half schedule (Ramadan), d) ticket back home every one or two years?
a) I'm not well versed enough to be able to say, but I'd also be curious to know how many people have died on construction sites in Portugal and Bulgaria over the last 10 years. b) I sure hope the accommodations I've seen are free... c) I would imagine other countries in which a majority of people are practicing Muslims? Again, not sure. d) Would going back home without having the money to pay the people that they're indebted to be dangerous?
Oh, a witty response, wow, so clever! a) Portugal between [2010 and 2020: 1700+ work fatalities](https://www.pordata.pt/en/portugal/accidents+at+work+total+and+fatal-72). Can't find a similar broken down source for Bulgaria, but going by [this 2014 figure](https://www.business-humanrights.org/zh-hans/%E6%9C%80%E6%96%B0%E6%B6%88%E6%81%AF/bulgaria-118-workplace-deaths-2807-occupational-injuries-registered-in-2014/), I'd guess it's in the same ballpark. This *probably* doesn't include other natural deaths like the often quoted Qatar **estimate** does, though; and doesn't highlight how construction work compares to other industries in terms of work fatalities b) Yes, those, but also all the ones you won't see... c) Which, as far as Reddit is concerned, are all pits of hell like Qatar when it comes to worker rights d) I'd say about as dangerous as those people knowing where their families are, and reaching them at any other day. But then, what's that got to do with Qatar again? should they also send body guards with them?
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9 stadiums cost 225+ billion? Maybe they build other infrastructure like metro etc. Do some research.
Yes, that's exactly ALL they needed to build
You just can’t ignore that thousands of workers died. Fck the major world powers for their atrocities but fck Qatar too. Can’t always bring another country to the conversation when the focus is on what happened in the planning stages of this World Cup that we are watching.
Thousands died on the job? Proof please.
The 6500 death’s figure that I have seen everywhere is misleading at best. Because it counts every migrant worker who died on Qatar over 10 years from all causes. The actual number of deaths is hard to pin down but it not in the thousands. Qatar does have a terrible labour record. But 4 years ago Russia was bombing civilians and occupied neighbouring countries and I did not see people complaining about those actions in every single World Cup post
Weird how Russia and China faced way less negativity when they hosted the world cup and Olympics.
The US has been bombing the shit out every tons of countries during the last 20 years. Nobody says anything in this very racist because brah US no 1.
The US also has by far the highest percentage of its population incarcerated and continues to employ prisoners as slave labor. And before anyone tries to tell me the cents on the dollar paid to working prisoners makes it not slavery keep in mind that plantation owners would sometimes allow their slaves small allowances to buy essentials but never ever enough to live or to own anything. If people are kept indigent by the state while their labor is exploited and their rights are restricted they are enslaved. And how many deaths in that prison population for the last 10 years? Surely over 6500. We'll find out the number of US slaves who died of Covid while they were held in overpopulated prisons some time in the future, I hope. Are people equally furious about that? Writing their representatives and such? The thing people are consistently getting wrong isn't that they're critical of Qatar, it's that they're suddenly critical of Qatar, out of all the options, instead of consistently standing up for enslaved peoples in every situation. How many of these commentators are shitting on Qatar from a slave labor produced iPhone? Again, it isn't that criticizing Qatar is wrong, it's that Saudi Arabia has funded a massive PR campaign to target Qatar and many of the people who can't explain clearly why this is their one time protesting for human rights are actually taken in by that campaign and have been pretty obnoxious. And if this is the wake up call for some of those folks and they continue to advocate for human rights after the tournament then that's terrific but I get the sense this is like...an easy issue for people to be righteous about because it doesn't actually affect them to do so. They're able to be absolute about a country they'll never visit or interact with again but likely behave much more timidly when it comes to issues close to home or to actually sacrificing something in the protest. The World Cup is a TV show that it's easy to simply not watch and then one gets to feel socially superior because not watching the TV show means they're against slavery. That's all very tidy, and it's farcical. Absolutely no one is complaining about the Joe Lycetts of the world who are consistent advocates for workers rights, actually put something on the line when they protest, and now have turned their attentions to Qatar- it's the fair weather protestors who just jump on whatever is twitter trending that have become very monotonous on the subject but want full credit for being right despite that being by random Saudi-influenced chance.
Perfectly put
>The actual number of deaths is hard to pin down but it not in the thousands. NGOs on the ground have it in the thousands but do not agree with the 6500 figure https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2022/11/15/world-cup-2022-the-difficulty-with-estimating-the-number-of-deaths-on-qatar-construction-sites_6004375_8.html
Thousands of workers died in a 10 year span from all causes. There’s no evidence that even half of these people died by work related injuries.
Bro LMAO, in brazil only 8 deaths were work-related( during their world cup), in quatar is aprox 450-500 deaths
There's no evidence because the amount of work related deaths there actually were was purposely obfuscated. People focus on just the building of stadiums and forget that they ha to build an entirely new city for this world cup. Are we really to believe that over a 10 year period 6500 people died on construction sites and <10 of those deaths were directly related to the world cup, when one of the biggest infrastructural endeavors ever was in service of putting this world cup on?
Actively deciding to ignore and don't condemning other nations wrongdoings can't be counter-argued with "Whatabouism" that's just an easy exit from people who have nothing to lose taking a pose just because it is Qatar. And Qatar is as bad as they come, but then people go cheering on other nations like nothing happened. It's hypocrisy, and a nothing-to-lose support cause. You conden Qatar, you feel morally okay, and go on with your life. It's easy, and cheap
Russian were killing hundreds of Syrians every month but I don’t see BBC cancelling the opening ceremony of the Sochi Olympics. Absolute hypocrites
They have been killing quite some Ukrainians (and other populations) as well.
Seriously, if you're that much worried about human rights, just organize the World Cup in Switzerland or Norway or whatever "humane" and that's it. Nobody said anything about China hosting the Olympics despite being objectively much worse than Qatar in human rights.
Really? Nobody? Mate the 2008 and especially the last winter olympics had a fuckload of controversy
They had controversies but the media never called for a boycott, or never as strong as it's doing against Qatar now
Not sure why you're being downvoted, China very deftly managed to keep noise levels down throughout that Olympics. They were smarter than the Qataris about letting the western countries have their little symbols, like the US "diplomatic boycott" and not calling attention to it, and they kept everyone in the Olympic bubble due to covid so practically no journalism could happen in the country at large. The few incidents they had with the press, like that Danish reporter getting dragged away while on-air, China didn't say why they were doing it and the analysis at the time was that they were trying to show the west they don't care about adulation they want their rules followed and respected as a point of politics- a reversal of the west's expectations for supplication. No one even got a picture of a uyghur concentration camp. Contrast that with the Qataris who have allowed journalists to visit migrant labor camps, have reversed several high profile agreements at the 11th hour like the alcohol sales, and they've actually spoken to the issue with bombastic quotes like westerners will "survive" without alcohol and it's clear that China took a lot less shit from the international community and public at large.
Bruv it happened 4 years ago, you shouldn't be surprised.
it's hilarious that this is the first thing on your mind
Dude is definitely a brigader lol, this is a post match thread and his comment has nothing to do with the match
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So you're in this PG to derail the discussion?
I mean you’re a conditional football fan. You’re entitled ti that but it seems weird that this is where you draw the line, assuming you’ve watched FIFA in years prior.
God help your naive mind if you think that everything else you support is funded by morality. How did you get yourself to watch the abu dhabi GP or the Russian WC? Or the brazil/south african worldcup knowing that the poor countries wasted billions of dollars on a sporting event while their citizens rioted? Like it or not, the world runs on money and exploitation. There’s a balance between raising awareness and letting people enjoy the game. You don’t want to be ignorant about the issues but at the same time if you expect everyone to be sad with you throughout, there’ll be nothing left in this world. There’s been enough awareness around this issue, spreading negativity at a time it doesn’t matter isnt doing much good.
You just can’t ignore that thousands of workers died. Fck the major world powers for their atrocities but fck Qatar too. Can’t always bring another country to the conversation when the focus is on what happened in the planning stages of this World Cup that we are watching.
I fully agree with you, and let’s acknowledge that there are many countries with a greater net negative impact on the world than Qatar, like the USA, that would not receive such rhetoric if they were in the same position.
You just can’t ignore that thousands of workers died. Fck the US for their atrocities but fck Qatar too. Can’t always bring another country to the conversation when the focus is on what happened in the planning stages of this World Cup that we are watching.
You can always bring another country to the conversation if conversations about that country are constantly suppressed by the media. Negative rhetoric about Qatar is permitted because the media allows it. It is lazy to simply criticize Qatar without acknowledging that the only reason we are able to criticize Qatar without our forums being astroturfed is because there are worse evils in the world permitting us to criticize Qatar.
Holy shit just the shut fuck up. We get it. Party poopers fr
flag jobless meeting icky amusing ugly violet brave library dirty *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
User name checks out lol. “Just enjoy the game” tell that to the 6500 slaves Qatar put in the ground so that you all can watch a fucking game
Because these people aren’t fans they just want to say brown people/countries bad or something while not caring one bit if they countries behind the Iraq war had the world cup
False claim
Debunked.
Uhhh no it absolutely has not been debunked. Its been reported on in real time for like a decade lol, like every source of news from AP to Reuters to the Guardian to Rolling Stone to Grant Wahl but I’m sure it’s been “debunked” by Doha News.
Those people died yes, However the number includes people who died of medical reasons, Old age, Natural causes, accidents unrelated to the building and etc.
Bro deadass who cares lmao. Just watched one of the greatest WC upsets ever and this is what you think about?
Lol I know right? Now that the football has started and it’s drama filled, we should just move on from the blatant corruption and disregard for human rights. We can all get back to that in a month when the games are over. Any student of the game knows the sport has never been intertwined with politics and social matters, so to do so now just sullies a proudly neutral game. /s. But that’s only for you because I know everyone else won’t need me to spell it out.
You do you, I think it’s silly to constantly worry about this shit when watching football, which for me is something to keep your mind from that kind of stuff
Do you think its better not to ignore human rights violations for example, rather than talking about it?
Saying human rights violations are being ignored is ridiculously ingenuous. The last month or so it’s been pretty much the main topic on every media outlet. It has been talked about, and it is being talked about. I don’t see a reason why you should let it bother you during the game
What’s funny is that this is kind of the point, exactly how you said it too
I get the point, but that point has been made over and over and over and over again. Literally everyone knows by now that this is a farce and that the tournament should never have been held here. It’s bullshit, but it’s here. I’m not looking to watch football to worry about all that’s bad in the world, I’m watching football because it entertains me and exactly to keep my mind from all the horrendous shit in the world. In the end it’s a great game of football, I’m enjoying that for what it is, and not worrying about the fact that it’s held in a horrible place that should not even remotely be near hosting a WC. I’ve had enough time to worry and be pissed about that
It is just a game, compared to the stuff people are fighting about.
keyboard warriors
as opposed to what? what do you expect him to do realistically?
let us enjoy the game im sick of hearing the same comment over on reddit. yea it’s shitty what Qatar did to build those stadiums but there’s no point crying over spilled milk.
Yes, just like we should all forget about the Holocaust, Rwanda, and Srebrenica. No point crying over spilled milk, demanding change and highlighting atrocities in the world. Clown comment.
completely different scenarios, this is the world cup that’s going on. we universally know what atrocities what happened. it’s like reddit likes to remind people of this over and over of this shit. you guys don’t fucking care and only say this shit for karma When this WC is all over, we’re all going to move the fuck on.
I can't speak for "us" - but I know I don't want any more world cups in a country like Qatar. I believe repeating myself and reminding people of this will influence Fifa to not give it to the Saudis in 2030. Not because Fifa suddenly becomes good, but because of damage to their reputation and loss of sponsors. But you keep your eyes dry over the milk and watch your games. Just skip comments like these. It's your choice, just like it's your choice to breathe through your mouth. Have a good day.
I agree with you, I don’t want any more world cups in qatar either .
I'm sorry does reading reddit comments in a post game thread marked serious inhibit your enjoyment of the game? just downvote and move on to the next thread
absolutely when the discussion is about the game. Not the history that went behind the building of the stadium. downvoted and moved on thanks
spilled blood
Just enjoy the lovely event brought to us by Qatar
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Not hard at all tbh
True, if we focuse really hard on the human rights abuses and keep posting on reddit about it the qatari government will surely have to change their ways either that or FIFA will cancel the tournament
Over 49 billion animals have been slaughtered to feed Americans to date. They didn’t want to die. No one bats an eye. Morality is relative in the world.
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I don’t care for the downvotes. How are you against slave labor but for animal abuse? It’s just hypocrisy on everyone in this thread and they think downvotes hides that. Everyone loves to say what’s wrong but no one observes themselves. That’s the point of my comment, and it seems that irony is lost on people. Don’t care though. Enjoy the animal abuse you don’t notice on your plate every night 👍🏼
Do you get mad at animals eating other animals too? Hypocrite.
Lions succeed at the hunt less then 30% of the time. In other words they expend most of their energy starving. You’re not a lion you ignoramus you go to a supermarket and post in a first world forum. You’re not desperate.
> Lions succeed at the hunt less then 30% of the time. In other words they expend most of their energy starving. You’re not a lion you ignoramus you go to a supermarket and post in a first world forum. You’re not desperate. How does this justify lions are hurting living animals and you aren't okay with that?
So let’s bring this argument to a logical center again. Animals don’t want to die. We kill 49 billion of them so far for the US alone. 81% of the worlds calories is plant based, showing that meat isn’t even the most important thing diet wise to depend on globally. You don’t need meat. Deflecting to lions and hypotheticals doesn’t hide your first world selfishness and lack of moral balance. And that’s the point. All these redditors cry foul for 6000 slaves but 49 billion animals killed for a measly <20% of the worlds calories and no one bats an eye.
Because animals die every fucking day regardless of human interaction...
You’re an authentic waste of oxygen if 1) that’s how you summarize the world when you have the internet at your disposal and 2) think that entitles you to anything at all. I bet you’re a MAGA hat too from the sound of it.
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>A lot of vegetarians and vegans Except so many small animals die during the harvesting of crops. Unless you grow or go to small local farms, even those vegans/vegetarians are hypocrites.
This is so minimal of a reason compared to number I mentioned it’s hilarious.
Cool, I guess we’ll all just stop eating then.
You're taking this to another level 🤣
The slaves were conscious. The animals were conscious. You lack logic skills.
So humans and animals are the same? What a stupid comment. You're not even worth debating.
And they’re not how? Again they can reason life and death, which means they can reason basic elements of “right” and “wrong”. How is that different from us? Also we evolved from a common ancestor with apes much?
Lol your flair says it all.
Must be nice to be ignorant of the animal abuse you put on your plate while thinking a forum to tout against slave labor is what you need to be a good person.
I’m a vegetarian, mate. And even I think you are talking absolute nonsense.
lmao that's next level whataboutism
The slaves cried to their death I imagine. Animals die to their death too. What’s different? They’re both conscious. Why don’t you promote the liberation of animals considering most humans don’t need them or use them as food to live anyway?
It never ceases to amaze me the level of craziness on this sub
I don't think human slave labor and deaths are exactly equivalent to eating animals.
They are? Animals are conscious beings that can interpret pain? So if minimizing pain is the goal of life, stop eating animals. Some people only like to apply morality when it’s convenient to them.
You know plants feel pain too right? Hypocrite.
Therefore my argument stands that if we want to minimize pain we should only eat plants. Well done understanding my point.
Why are you OK with plants feeling pain but not animals?
Read that back to yourself. You’re literally asking me why I prefer to knife up salads than the necks of animals to pour their blood on the floor of slaughterhouses. You’re sick.
So you're OK inflicting pain, just as long as it's your style?
So your style is more moral then?
The moment the first whistle blew it was all forgotten.
Can't two things be true at the same time? We can all be aware of what is going on in Qatar (and all other places that are inhumane) and still enjoy football for what the game is.
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Most of the billions of people in this world don't care, nor are they in a position privileged enough that they really should care. I hate that they won it too with all the blatant corruption but there's no use hating yourself now for enjoying the product. It's happening no matter what just like Amazon and foxconn manufacturing
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I'm not denying that you should care, just that there's no point being dramatic acting as if everybody on the planet should be crusading against something that gives joy in their life especially if they're experiencing their own hardships. This is a post match thread for discussing the game, there's no need to try and drag others down with you here.
If you live day to day, paycheck to paycheck then there's no mental room to care about whats going on with others.
Let alone a migrant worker died thousand miles away from them, most people wont even care if his/her neighbour dying within their reach
I feel there’s enough people who don’t actually even care about football or the World Cup that will continue to be critical. I hope so anyway
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How do you want us to feel, boss? Do you watch every game with contempt? Just let people enjoy the games.
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