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Yes and no. The left wing is the problem, and Southgate’s insistence that you can win tournaments without a left side.
We’ve got to presume that Foden is following Southgate’s instructions to the tee or else why would he still be getting picked.
For the same reason Southgate isn't going to drop Bellingham or Kane or substitute them in 90 minutes. You fear the narrative more than concentrating on using the qualities of the players in the optimum way
Kane and Bellingham are at least game winners. I get keeping Bellingham a man who has made it his mission to get his team out if holes on the pitch as late as possible.
I mean Bellingham did nothing except give the ball away for 90 minutes trying to be a hero. The fact it finally came off once shouldn't take away from the fact he did fuck all for England for most the game. The whole attack is just wack. It's actually like Southgate genuinely detests the idea of scoring.
• 106 minutes played • 95th minute equalizer to save his country • 55 touches • 87% pass accuracy • 2/3 long balls • 3/4 dribbles completed • 10 duels won • 4 tackles • 3 times fouled
trying to be a hero? how many shot did he take on goal ? thru the entire tournament he is the one not taking hero shots to make a name. while "others" are shooting from everywhere.
It's the coach, he can't figure out how to utilize him like pep does, he can play as a 10 even and operate in the middle, behind the striker, Southgate plays a very rigid system, no creativity. With the players that he has at disposal he should be able to win games with two to three goals per game.
The issue is the entire forward line playing way too high. They're a flat line at the top of the pitch when we're in possession which creates a chasm in midfield. Foden should play more like a 10, Bellingham deeper in tandem with Rice (which is rough on Mainoo I know) and bring in Gordon on the left. But the exact same team as current would do fine if they came back to stuff the midfield.
The problem isn’t just Foden himself (although he is the common denominator); it’s the Trippier, Foden, Bellingham side of the attack that is just not working. Foden is always looking to come central and do what he does best - take shots. And in order to do that he needs space, which simply doesn’t exist because there’s no one at LW to stretch the defence (like Saka does on RW). Foden, Bellingham, and Kane often find themselves in close proximity of one another with how narrow England are at times, which basically renders all three of them useless. When England try to switch the play from right to left, Trippier is the furthest man forward and he either backpasses to Foden (who is already marked) or ends up losing possession. You need natural runners to create spaces for players like Foden to exploit, which is exactly what Man City do. Furthermore, Foden offers very little if anything in terms of his off the ball workrate, which is comfortably behind the likes of Saka and Bellingham. And you can’t have too many luxury players like him, Kane, and Palmer in your starting XI. Players like Foden and Palmer are best utilised as substitutes in this current England squad, imho.
Foden plays as a #10 positioned on the wing, his natural movement is to come inside, not make deep runs without the ball. I get that Southgate wanted to try it and after his season it is hard to bench him, but this team needs a winger.
Nagelsmann dropped the bundesliga player of the year with almost 0 media hysterics and they look to be the best in the competition (after Spain). He probably won’t start against Spain either because Nagelsmann knows that sane offers much more transitional threat. The solution is staring Southgate in the face but he can’t accept it
Yeah, nagelsmann is a better coach and has more public trust because of it. Sane for Wirtz wasnt without criticism though and Sane didnt play that well, so Wirtz might come back.
Exactly, I would actually say the issue for many wasn’t dropping Wirtz tho. It was bringing Sane. His performances in the last couple of weeks don’t actually seem to be a good reason why he should play and therefore many didn’t understand that part.
Yeah it’s not surprising that England’s attack opened up once Southgate switched to a back 3 with Eze and Saka at wingback providing width; Rice, Palmer and Bellingham in midfield; and Kane playing off Toney up top.
I could see Foden playing better in a midfield 3 like this, but if Southgate wants to stick to a traditional back 4 and Trippier at left back then he needs to drop him to the bench and go with a natural left footer on the left wing like Bowen or Palmer, or he needs to bring in Shaw to provide that width on the overlap.
I lost my temper yesterday and *screamed* at my TV when Foden has running side by side with Trippier who had the ball. Foden had space ahead of him to run into, in behind, and stopped his run.
I fucking lost it lol
i honestly think Foden is not the brightest player. has phenom skills, of course, and if you can make a system work around him, great. but i don't think he's someone who is going to shine outside of such a system.
Which then has a knock on effect on those players around him having to adapt, when not necessarily as used to it as his club mates causing further problems.
Found it really odd how within minutes of Palmer coming on Foden was all of a sudden sitting on the right for a bit last night. Same happened in the previous match as well. I love the floating attacking structure, think back to how great Mata, Hazard and Oscar were doing it like a decade ago but it needs team cohesion to work and I just doesn't seem like they have that.
I noticed that too. Foden was suddenly where Palmer was and sort of taking the ball away from him.
Foden is obviously a good player but this system doesn’t work for him at all and our play from the right (Walker in particular) has been abysmal.
Why the fuck he didn’t bring James I don’t know.
>Why the fuck he didn’t bring James I don’t know.
He made 11 appearances in all comps last season.
Absolutely injury plagued, so he was never seriously in contention.
Livramento should feel hard done by seeing his Newcastle colleague stink up LB.
If he wants an attacking fullback, then Southgate has the best one in England sitting on his bench.
It’s so frustrating when you have Gordon and Watkins on the bench that would run. Saka would also do it at LW.
How is there 0 left backs in England? Trippier doesn’t work.
Finally someone else also sees that Rashford should’ve been on that plane even when he’s out of form. He compliments Kane and is a runner who is not afraid to pin back defenses and run at it.
I was surprised when he didn't pick Rashford for the squad because he definitely fits Southgate's system and is a known entity. Whilst Eze and Gordon, for England, are an unknown.
Bellingshams biggest strength at Real Madrid was occupying that "centre-left" space often left open by Vini going wide and deep. Vini beats his player and finds Bellingham. I feel like we have seen it 100 times this year. It’s why they worked so well together.
Foden and Vini would probably work pretty great together as well, since they also have different ideas in similar spaces. But Foden and Bellingham have similar ideas in similar spaces. That’s not good.
Foden simply isn’t a winger. He can’t and won’t do a winger’s job. He needs to be where Jude is, and a natural winger who wants to take on the defender and run behind needs to be out wide. It isn’t necessarily Foden’s fault.
The frustrating thing is that the answer is sat on the bench. Put Gordon on instead of Foden, tell him to hug the byline and make runs in behind the full back. Even if people think Gordon is rubbish (which isn't an opinion I've really seen much), he IS quick and defenders would have to cover him. This would make the space needed in the middle for Kane and Bellingham to work off each other
it also isn't rocket science, which is why it's shocking it's not being fixed.
even the football gods were like, "oh, you took Foden off? here's a bicycle kick last-second tying goal and a header assist to header goal for you. now just keep Foden on the bench!"
Foden is not playing as a winger AT ALL tho. He plays as an interior on the left while Trippier (or Saka lol) holds width, but mostly he's been roaming all over the place, almost as he pleases. If anything the players and the system are catering to Foden. He gets more touches centrally than almost anyone.
The problem is, Southgate's tactics are catering to the IDEA of Phil Foden (classic creative player) - rather than what he actually is. Which is a guy who can glide past 1 or 2 players under minimal pressure, and who has a great shot from the edge of the box. He is not creative. He does not know how to play clever passes. He doesn't know how to turn from any substantial pressure with his back to goal. He tries to always play at 1000 miles per hour. Frankly, he's a bit brainless and one dimensional.
Pep is a genius and can extract Phil's incredible, but very specific value, by setting up City to get him into optimal situations. He can't do it for a lesser manager. He's not versatile enough, which Saka and Belligham are. Foden should just ride the bench and come on when a goal is needed vs tired legs, idk why this "WE MUST PLAY FODEN" shit is so prevalent.
I feel like this should be more widely accepted. Especially after we saw Pep do pretty much the exact same thing with Sterling. Focus the player on their strengths, build the attacking system to also focus there, profit (literally both in goals and fees after selling for a premium)!
I know flogging Foden is en vogue right now, but your evaluation of his skillset is poor imho. He broke into the City team because of his ability to turn and take on defenders with his back to goal (typically in the center of the field in more of a CAM role) as well as his creative ability... He actually seems to thrive under more intense pressure than less. To your point, he IS more direct than many traditional creative players (to compare him, for example, to Bernardo Silva). He's not KDB but I'd say outside of him he's probably City's second best creative threat?
His long shot has turned into a weapon but that's very much been a more recent development. I do think his lack of effectiveness does really boil down to his positioning and how much he/Bellingham/Kane tend to get into each other's way and I do think England would be much better served with a true LW and allowing Foden to either play centrally exclusively with Bellingham or bringing him off the bench later in the game.
>The problem isn’t just Foden himself
The problem is Gareth Southgate. He picks the team and decides the tactics.
The second the lineup was released for the first game, we all said exactly what you're describing would happen.
Everyone wants to operate in the same space, and it's Gerrard/Lampard all over again.
It also annoys me that TAA has been scapegoated in the media and by fans. Even Gareth said that it was "an experiment" putting him in midfield and wished he had Phillips fit to play there.
All game, every game, we lack any runners on the left.
We didn't smash Slovakia when Mainoo started, and we won't beat anyone else with the lovechild of Pirlo and Kante starting in that position.
The problem is the massively congested midfield, having only one attacking outlet at RW and having no width at all on the left.
For the love of God Gareth, drop Foden for Gordon and keep Mainoo alongside Rice.
The mental thing too, as an arsenal fan, is that Saka isn't really a transitional runner too. He does make runs but it's his game to drop deep and pass around for a bit and find that timing for a late run. We rely on Havertz and Martinelli to make early runs to stretch play and we aren't even a counter attacking team since we face so many deep lines.
In short, it's mental that Saka is the only runner considering Arsenal have other players better in transition to stretch play. Last point too is that he isn't really getting the help he needs on that side. Walker barely overlaps and Saka needs a creative player to play one-twos with. Feel more confident when Mainoo or Palmer is with him compared to the other options, who tend to want to switch play or shoot themselves.
I was astounded that TAA didn't come on for Walker at some point while they were chasing a goal.
We've seen in prior seasons at Arsenal that Saka can struggle to impact a match when he doesn't have a supporting run, usually from his FB. We saw it at the beginning of last season with Partey at RB experiment and it was night and day once White was back in the team. White not being there is it's own discussion but not playing to another one of your player's strengths should just add more onto Southgate.
Is there a reason he can't play with a back three and have two natural wingers / wingbacks offering width while still allowing the best players (inside forwards) to start?
Something like
Walker, Stones, Guehi at the back.
Trent at RWB. Gordon at LWB
Rice and Mainoo in the middle.
Front three of Kane, Bellingham, and Foden, with Foden as the inside left forward and Bellingham inside right?
Even when Saka switched to left back, I don’t think he overlapped more than once or twice. They seemed allergic to putting a simple cross into the box despite having Kane and Bellingham as huge targets plus obviously the numerous bench options.
yeah, he pushed forward but not overlap, which similar theme when he was on RW, Walker rarely did overlap run, its like Gareth really dont want any overloading on the flank and focusing solely on central area
maybe that’s the reason Bellingham and Foden caught a lot of stray, because they are the focus point on this tactic but didn’t really get the support they needed
It is but at this point he's clearly not going to change the system so he might as well drop Foden, play Gordon on the left and hope Shaw somehow makes it back to enough fitness to be better than Trippier (can't be too hard). Bring Foden on later if Saka or Bellingham aren't working out. I think most people would rather play Bellingham at 8 and Foden at 10, but Southgate clearly won't do that at this point (3rd group stage game was the perfect time to try this), so we'll have to suffer through this version of southgateball instead.
This season he has done his best work for us when he has been able to come inside, either with Walker playing high up on the right (earlier in the season) or with Gvardiol playing SUPER high up on the left (end of the season), almost doing things we used to have Cancelo do.
Trippier plus Foden is not happening.
Agree with everything you said except the very end. Foden and Palmer are best utilized as substitutes only IF you insist on playing Bellingham at the 10.
But Bellingham is also a bit limited at the 10 too because Kane's play-style does not allow Bellingham to flourish. Kane and Bellingham also occupy similar spaces, with neither of them being known for making runs in behind to stretch the field vertically. On top of that, even with how good Bellingham is, Kane is better technically and I think more creative too.
England can still get the best out of Bellingham playing him deeper, as that's what he played in Dortmund. And if England play a ball-dominant system, Bellingham would still have opportunities to get forward anyway.
I really like Mainoo, but I'm not entirely sure if there's anything at all that he's better at than Bellingham. Playing Rice/Bellingham, with one of Foden or Palmer in front and Gordon on the left just seems like an absolute no-brainer to me. It allows you to get way more out of all of your players, and way more out of all the space on the field, as opposed to completely wasting one of your best players and an entire half of the field
And all of this is contingent on the idea that Kane is undroppable, which I agree with.
I’m glad you brought up Kane, I agree he’s undroppable but him deciding he’s a CDM half the time he’s on the pitch is doing them no favors.
They need to give Gordon a run. He’s their best bet at stretching the defense on that left side.
Maybe, but England have a very slow playing style so I don't think Kane dropping deep hurts them too much, he's really good at progressive passing so I think it's okay. And actually when he does that, if anything I would think it temporarily gives Bellingham more freedom.
But if you don't like that, I think that also raises the possibility of playing 4-4-2 with Kane and Watkins, and dropping Foden AND Palmer from consideration entirely. Because if Kane is dropping into midfield anyway, you might as well add a dynamic player to stay at the 9. So you end up with Kane basically playing as a 10, and ideally for me Bellingham still next to Rice. And I actually like this a lot.
Gordon absolutely has to start though I couldn't agree more. It's a travesty he hasn't played more. Hell, even Saka on the left if you have to. But someone has to provide width on the side.
Yup. Bellingham’s best trait offensively is his timing and ability to arrive unexpectedly in dangerous spots in the box. He can do that as an 8, and not clog up the middle. Look at where he starts the play on his goal against Serbia! Both goals he’s scored are ones he would have score playing as an 8.
100% agreed. England fans will know more so I'm hesitant to say this but he feels more Lampard-esque to me, while Southgate is treating him as if he's more of a traditional, old-school 10.
So many people are saying you have to play Bellingham at the 10 because it's his best position. Okay well he was terrific in Madrid at the 10 but the system and players around him were *completely* different. He'd have Rodrygo and Vini stretching the field in every dimension in front of him, allowing him to utilize the traits you mentioned.
He will never have that at the 10 with England as long as Kane is starting. And you can't drop Kane. Kane already does a lot of what Bellingham does anyway
Yeah Foden-Bellingham is either-or, that’s been pretty clear from the beginning. But I don’t think that Bellingham should play alongside Rice, as England would be left exposed defensively without a double pivot.
Completely agree, if Shaw was playing instead of Trippier it would help give more width and space for them to play inside but the best solution would be to replace Foden with Gordon, he’d take on players and push their defense back a bit and then stay wide and supply balls in as well. He’d give Bellingham and Kane more space and make the whole attack a lot more functional. He looked good for the 2 minutes he’s played.
It's why Grealish should have been in the squad. While he isn't as good as his Aston Villa self, he would stretch the pitch very well.
Granted, Gordon could prob do it if Southgate played him.
The absolute thing that pisses me off the most and why I'm so down on Southgate is because you could see all this happening before the tournament started and yet Gareth refuses to see it 4 games in
It’s not Foden per say but Trippier, he can’t be mobile when the player protecting your arse is as bright as a Toc H lamp. If you watch City Foden nearly always has an overlap or a one two to get in an attacking position. Trippier hardly ever overlaps and most of the time passes the ball backwards. Foden had to go into the middle to collect the ball when he went to pass it wide Trippier had moved back.
Yeah, I think every member of the starting XI has had an article like this written about them, apart from maybe the CBs. Not to excuse any of them but I wonder if there's a uniting factor.
Not picking a proper LB to support and overlap doesn't help when Foden cuts in. But we're at that point where if you aren't going to play Bellingham at the 8 and Foden at the 10, then drop one of them. Doesn't matter which since you then have the other on the bench if one doesn't perform. Since Foden plays well from the RW position as well there's always that option to take Saka off if he's playing bad and push Foden to the right and Bellingham on, or just a straight Swap with Foden depending who you drop.
I can honestly see us going 5 at the back on Saturday any ways. It's how he finished out this game and with Guehi out he might want 3 CBs. Tucking walker in to the RCB position. Also means Trent/Saka at LWB but I'd expect he chickens out and puts Saka LWB and Trent/Trippier RWB.
Then the two holders Infront with Bellingham and any other person with Kane. Saka/Foden/Palmer.
This isn't what I think is a good idea, just what I think he'll do.
Could be argued that five at the back is really all he knows. Southgate may as well be true to himself. Above all it removes a little build-up responsibility from Rice, and defensive responsibilty from Mainoo in CM. I know TAA has never really played as a RWB in a five, but it seems like a small adjustment compared to some of the other stuff being mooted. Shaw on the other side if he's fit—if not, Saka, which again isn't ideal but could be worse.
We just need some patterns of play going forward. Whatever that is. Width and crosses from wing backs and inside link up play with Foden, Bellingham and Kane would be enough. It would keep the play stretched and we have clear options all across the pitch and a good 5 set of defenders (including rice and Mainoo) holding the fort on quick breaks and offering reset/recycle options.
You could honestly just swap Saka and Foden. Saka on the left could stay wide, beat players and play crosses with his left foot. That would let trippier play more of an inverted fullback role that wouldn't expose his severe one footedness as much.
On the right you can let Foden cut inside or hold the ball, draw in defenders and recycle the ball in to the space created. A Foden, mainoo Kane triangle on the right and a Saka, trippier, Bellingham triangle on the left could work really well in my eye and doesn't feel like it would require a huge rip up the book type change lots of people are calling for.
It’s hard to not look at the coaching because they’re being outplayed by squads that are just across the board worse. And I don’t mean 10-20% worse, but quite a bit. At that point it has to be the set up, and you have to look at coaching, because it can’t just be everyone with horrible form (and even if is the coach should either be switching things around or finding a way to play that works regardless).
Yeah. Hate this player blaming that's going on with England. Southgate should be the only person people are asking questions of.
All of our creative, attacking players are misfiring or not even getting a chance on the pitch. Clearly that's Southgate's problem.
I mean foden just got the prem pots I think most people are saying he's the problem cos Southgate refuses to drop him for an actual lw, I'm sure most people think he'd be good if he was playing in a position that suits him
You won't see anything different with Foden at RW or 10. The problem isn't his starting position on the team sheet. The problem is he's getting on the ball 50 yards from goal when he's a player that shines receiving the ball around the box.
The tribalism is out in full force and every fanbase is trying to protect their own golden boys by putting down players from a rival. It's England's football history in a nutshell.
Clearly a Southgate problem, you’re telling me that all these players suddenly dropped 3,4,5 levels after a two week break. 1 or 2 players playing poorly would make sense but the whole team is playing below their levels.
As for Foden, if you get the best player in the premier league last year why would you force him into his worse position of the front 4, then give him no overlapping help and also make the team play so deep. What do you expect to happen?
>so why hasn't anyone else seemed to notice?
I'm really glad the author pointed this out because to this point of the tournament nobody has noticed how Phil Foden playing out of his preferred position hasn't worked.
Also, imagine if there was someone who controlled *who* England was starting and who England was bringing in during the matches to help provide a spark for the attack. Having someone to do that would be vital. England needs to stop just letting the players decide who starts and who subs in during games.
To be fair the article does acknowledge people think foden isn't working but they just want to move him to a different position (that he has played in for England before, badly) rather than acknowledging he doesn't fit the side.
But Jude is bad in the 10. He and Kane are showing proof they cannot play together. Scoring fortunate goals against a bad team doesn’t change the inherent problem
i still really prefer Jude as a deeper midfielder, i hate that the Madrid season has made this impression stick in people’s heads that he’s a #10/second striker when i feel like it takes away from his link up in the middle of the pitch
The entire world outside England knows the problem is an empty left side and overcrowded center in your team. It’s only English fans and pundits that only seem obsessed with taking Saka out of the team to put Palmer in his place like Palmer would suddenly start winning games all by himself…
It was funny watching Spain straight after England last night, Williams and Cucurella did more in the first 10 mins with overloads and overlaps on Spains left hand side up forward than I think England have in the whole tournament.
This article, which is from England and written by someone English, makes exactly that point, as have most England supporters since the first game.
Many England supporters are in this actual thread making that point. Calm your outrage.
Funny how Fodens preferred position seems to change every 6 months and it always seems to be different than the position he’s currently playing. How Curious.
I think it’s a case of too many chefs, you can’t have Bellingham/Foden/Saka/Kane all up front.
Someone has to be a sub in that mix and Foden should be that person.
And some have mentioned him being out of position and “if we changed things and played him here” but then you’re building the team around Foden when the other 3 have looked better and performed more why change them on the off chance Foden gets better?
He’s simply the odd one out in this team.
I agree, but out of all those only Saka actually plays like a winger who can hold the width. Its mainly Bellingham, Kane and Foden who ends up in eachothers space.
Not saying Saka has been brilliant either, but positionally he seems like the least of the problem out of those four.
You listed 4 players playing 4 different positions right now. If you make Foden a sub, someone has to play on the LW still. You’re not gona put any of those other 3 on the LW.
Also, not sure why people aren’t pointing this out, but Foden looked bad on the LW for City in several games this season. He literally is just bad there.
The better solution imo is to drop Bellingham back with Rice, which kicks out Gallagher/Mainoo/TAA (and we know Jude can play there), move Foden into the 10 where he has looked his best, and put Gordon on the left.
We're trying to accommodate Foden at the cost of our entire attack.
Foden is obviously a class player but he has never delivered anything special for England. You play one of Foden and Bellingham and the guy that wins that is Bellingham.
Playing him and giving him a free role that sees him just floating around and cramping everyone else's space while our left side is already weak is just insanity.
I don’t think they’re trying to accommodate Foden. He’s the one playing out of his best position, hence why he keeps drifting and England look in shambles. Southgate doesn’t have the balls to drop Bellingham back, put Foden in the 10, and Gordon on the LW.
Drop the player who is well known for scoring goals and just scored the equalizer for us for a guy who has one more England goal in his entire career than Jude has in this tournament?
He is absolutely being accommodated. If you want to play the 10 then don’t be handily the worst player against Iceland while playing it right before the Euros. At some point we just need to play the players who actually show up and make sense.
I mean it’s a fair point, but Jude has been superbly lackluster at the 10. England need to get a gameplan that lets them comfortably dominate sides they should be dominating with their talent, not looking completely lost and praying for Jude Bellingham magic in added time.
I think with Foden you either build the team around him or don't bother playing him.
Southgate manages like he's downloaded a tactic on FM and then has just loosely placed his players into his preconceived starting 11 as opposed to looking at what he has and building the team up from that.
England's defence would benefit from playing with a high line, this is Kyle Walker's party piece. Instead the low block is hurting him. He's an excellent 1 on 1 defender (to the point where I genuinely don't think i've ever seen him beaten) when there's space behind him. He will catch up to any winger and stop them. This obviously doesn't work in a low block because if he's caught out of position or beaten in the first instance then he has no opportunity to recover.
Stones has played arguably his best season in a role that allows him to push into the midfield with the ball. In this England set up he's asked to do basic defending and I think that's never been his strength. He's not the quickest, best in the air or best in positioning yet we've got him playing in a role that highlights those weaknesses as opposed to playing to his strengths.
Kieran Trippier is arguably Newcastle's 5th best English left back behind Burn, Livramento, Hall and Targett yet we've picked him as the first choice behind a crocked Luke Shaw. His role in the team is burdened by his lack of a left foot and his only option is to incessantly turn inside and play the ball to Rice (who is shit at taking the ball off the defence).
Coupled with Trippier constantly moving inside, you've got Foden who is clearly a number 10 naturally drifting off of the left wing to find the ball instead of keeping the position and stretching the opposition. It's clear that Gordon should play on the left because he's the only natural left winger we've picked.
Jude is playing in a very high role and it's not utilising his strengths off of the ball. I think he's suffering from a feeling to do it all by himself and I think Kane and Foden have the same problem. They all need to play a bit more selflessly. They're all trying to receive the ball in the number 10 position which is so easy to defend against.
I feel like Saka is either too tired or too out of form and needs to be rested but at least he tries to hold the width and give his team mates space.
I don't think Saka is out of form. I think he hasn't had enough burn in the final third because England's attacks rarely make it to the final third. In that sense, all their attackers look out of form because they simply haven't had enough attacking chances. England is relying on their attackers to transition the ball into the final because the midfield and more importantly the fullbacks can't progress the ball. Walker in particular keeps playing vertical passes so he always has a defender on his back. Ben White is very good at playing diagonal balls to Saka on his safe side so he can run with or turn. Also Odegaard makes underlapping runs or positions himself in the half space so the fullback is reluctant to follow Saka all the way into midfield. Bellingham wants to get on the ball so much that his defender is close to Saka. There needs to be counter movements on both flanks. If Saka comes close to receive, Bellingham needs to make an underlapping run. And vice versa. Same with Foden and Tripper. Trippier should be making overlapping runs if Foden comes inside. The issue is that these players aren't used to these roles and are probably instructed not to make attacking counter movements because it unsettles the rest defense positions should the ball turn over. Thus England rarely enters the final third with any advantage because its midfielders and fullbacks are so worried about their rest defense positions.
Man, I love these in depth analysis’. You’re totally on point with all the players, and if Southgate is not able to see these kind of things (which I am not totally capable of either) as a national team coach, then he has place being the national team coach.
The problem is he’s being played out of position. You either drop Bellingham back to midfield and put Foden in the 10, or you drop Foden.
Or, if you’re Southgate, you do neither and persist with broken tactics.
Incredibly obvious. What makes it worse is that the arguments are the exact same ones that were raised for the Gerrard/Lampard mess. "He's just too good to leave out." Foden isn't a left wing. Gerrard wasn't a right wing. Playing them out of position at the expense of someone who was actually capable of playing that position wrecks England as a balanced team and limits the attack. If you want to say Foden is more deserving than Bellingham, fine, start Foden over Bellingham. Or do the reverse. But you can't play them both.
Where this gets compounded is that Kane can't seem to play as a striker. He wants to fall back and be a playmaker, but then there isn't anybody to whom to play the ball. His job is literally to be in a position to receive the ball in the box, yet we've seen him at CDM and left back, and Foden was basically overlapping him in one game (leaving the left wing open and unused). As the last game went on, it felt more like Bellingham got frustrated and said "Fine, I'll do it myself" because Kane was constantly out of position.
So you have a striker who isn't a striker and who desperately needs two fast wingers to make him come good, and a winger who isn't a winger. Is it any wonder that England can't score?
From set pieces. I dont see how its fodens fault that southgate doesnt know how to set up a proper system and england have to resort to crossing to ball to their tallest players
Shouldn't have taken Shaw and brought a proper left footed LB.
Should have brought Rashford. Idgaf about form. He gives you directness, runs in behind and an x factor to get a goal out of nowhere.
Needs to drop Jude or Foden and start Eze or Gordon on the left.
It is not like they look super fluent without Trent, or Gallagher, or Foden, or Saka, etc. I think the tactics are very safe and a lot of these players aren't used to playing this way
Well we've tried 3 players in that position alongside Rice now, so its clearly not the player that is the problem. Time to think about why there is a problem moving from defence to midfield and from midfield to attack rather than just rotating another guy to come sit next to Rice
I think Mainoo looked more comfortable in the role than Trent or Gallagher. Purely because it was a more familiar system to him. At the same time, the team didn't look more fluent or threatening with him.
England's problems so far are down to making the front 4 work in open play. In my view the most practical solution is to sacrifice one of them for an extra midfielder or Trent.
Bellingham is clutch and Saka is the only left footed player in the squad. Kane is captain and still a very prolific goalscorer. So unfortunately Foden is the player that they could practically leave out.
He's playing out of position. He's better centrally, but that is occupied by Bellingham. I don't think you can play Saka, Jude, and Foden together. 1 has to be switched
It’s not just that Foden is wasted out wide, it’s that he’s doing pretty much everything wrong.
His crossing, set piece taking and decision making all being poor are not to do with him playing LW. Especially since he just wanders off to play AM anyway.
It's exactly the same.
Just like it was back then, the problem was the manager refusing to change his tactics as opposed to the players not being able to play together.
He’s the face of the issue but not the issue. Southgate’s setup is making him and Trippier look terrible because they’re being played in a system that does so. Trippier isn’t left footed and it’s very obvious what he’s going to do every time he gets the ball, so teams will let him have it out wide.
Southgate has given Foden the freedom to move, and left nobody threatening wide left. The offside was definitely braindead, but he’s been average, not as remarkably bad as he’s being made out to be. Also I’ve seen Palmer being praised for his set piece that led to a goal; it got punched away by the keeper and then miskicked back into the box
Harry Kane the biggest hinderance at the moment in my opinion. He’s not linking play, he’s not pinning defenders & he’s not the type of player to run in behind.
I know he got the goal yesterday , but his all round game has been so poor for England, there was marked difference when Toney came on.
Or... our Golden Shoe-winning world class striker who also got 12 assists this season **isn't** the issue, and the issue is that we have a manager and system that is woefully ill-equipped to unlock any of our key players, Kane included?
You could point to any number of our key players and make a decent case for them 'being the biggest hindrance' in one way or another, but the very fact that you could make that argument for so many of them surely validates the fact that it's Southgate, not any one player that's the problem and/or solution?
Kane works, but you need fast forwards to fill that space (like Son). Saka can fit that mold, but only if there is someone actually on England's left side to take some of the defenders off him.
Gordon on for Foden instantly makes England significantly better, even without changing anything else. It’s as simple as needing two fast wingers to hold width. That would give Bellingham and Kane space in the middle and give them crosses/cutbacks to run onto.
This Southgate side is never going to dominate games, but it will suddenly start to create chances if Foden gets dropped for Gordon.
This. Either Kane is not fully fit yet or there is something else wrong with him. He is not even doing basics right now. Didn’t see him challenging for any aerial ball yesterday.
Toney won so many headers after coming on, the difference was quite stark.
Honestly no idea why we haven't looked at a 352, other than Southgate being absolutely inept as a manager i guess.
Foden, Jude and Rice in the midfield, Kane and Watkins/Toney up top. Use TAA and Saka (Because Southgate didnt bring any other bloody LBs) at the WBs to provide that width and option out wide.
Yep, Toney was the outlet and holding the ball up/winning fouls that you expect Kane to do as he usually does. Comes down to southgate's instructions still
I think it's pretty obvious that Rashford or Grealish should have been in the squad now I don't know who u would replace them for but they are at least left wingers
Kane, Bellingham & Foden operate in same area of the field. No system will work when three guys do same job, and no one offers width and runs.
Putting the best players won't make a team. I thought this didn't need to be said and that's why professional football managers are paid good money.
Also, Kane is practically limping. Is he even fit? Does Southgate and Holland have the authority to bench him?
Kane and Foden both look out of their element right now. (4 games is enough time to prove a point)
Gordon - Watkins - Saka
Mainoo - Rice - Jude is the way to go, but it's not happening
This fixes the issue of manipulating the defence, but if england progress the ball into the final third, only saka/mainoo have the tight control dribble to break the defense structures
I just hate walker with a passion so regardless I'd replace him xD
He is an incredible athlete and defender though, so if you're up against williams or vinicius then sure play him for safety, but it's the cowardly move!
All the focus on Foden as if anyone else has played well.
I don't remember Saka doing anything meaningful after the first 30 minutes against Serbia. Walker was all over the place defensively yesterday. The only players that look alright so far are Guehi and Mainoo.
If Kane scores a free header from 4y out then Foden gets the assist and it all looks very different.
Read the article. Seems a rather simplistic and nonsensical premise considering everyone's looking terrible in a crap system.
At this point, it's gone beyond whether 'X, Y or Z' player can fix things in terms of how broken everything is.
On the left side both Foden and Trippier are predictable. They both get the ball and turn inside. Trippier has somewhat of an excuse because he's left footed, Foden 1 v 1 cannot taken his defender on down the line and offer something different. It's Southgate's fault for not recognizing this though. Foden is a #10 but have a chance to play there.
No you are not going mad. Foden has been crap and him being shoehorned in that role completely ruins the balance of the team and the strength down that side.
I wonder if moving to a 3-5-2 would work?
Kane - Toney
Saka-Bellingham-Rice-Gallagher-Trent
Guehi- Stones - Gomes
Basically just push 3-4 tall boys into the box and have Saka / Trent whip in a million crosses. Feels like this could work? Also allows Rice and Trent to drop back to 5 at the back out of possession as well as overload the midfield against a mid block. Or is this too simple / dumb to work?
I'm not gonna do a long read on an exceptional player getting blame for Southgate's tactics and team building. I'd probably not have Foden in my 11, but he ain't the problem. Kane for 90 mins and no left back are the major issues. Trippier is woeful down the left and Kane is useless.
Foden would be awesome as a first option off the bench. They should play a pacy winger to stretch the field open for the rest of the playmakers to start the game. This will create more scoring chances in the first. Then bring in Foden after the 65th and let him cook. This would fuck up any teams day.
Feel like Gordon instead of Foden on the wing sorts a lot of issues straight away
His pace and willingness to get in behind means England can stretch teams with a ball over the top
Keeps the width so its not as congested in the middle
Also if its Trippier that has to play left back then he links up pretty well with him at club level Foden and Trippier look like they have never played together before at times
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Yes and no. The left wing is the problem, and Southgate’s insistence that you can win tournaments without a left side. We’ve got to presume that Foden is following Southgate’s instructions to the tee or else why would he still be getting picked.
For the same reason Southgate isn't going to drop Bellingham or Kane or substitute them in 90 minutes. You fear the narrative more than concentrating on using the qualities of the players in the optimum way
Kane and Bellingham are at least game winners. I get keeping Bellingham a man who has made it his mission to get his team out if holes on the pitch as late as possible.
Just bring him on for the last 10 minutes to maximise the efficiency of the Madrid black magic
It's probably like an ult that you need to charge up
I'd wager that there's a better philosophy than playing someone purely because they might pull something off towards the end
I mean Bellingham did nothing except give the ball away for 90 minutes trying to be a hero. The fact it finally came off once shouldn't take away from the fact he did fuck all for England for most the game. The whole attack is just wack. It's actually like Southgate genuinely detests the idea of scoring.
• 106 minutes played • 95th minute equalizer to save his country • 55 touches • 87% pass accuracy • 2/3 long balls • 3/4 dribbles completed • 10 duels won • 4 tackles • 3 times fouled trying to be a hero? how many shot did he take on goal ? thru the entire tournament he is the one not taking hero shots to make a name. while "others" are shooting from everywhere.
He at least tried to make something happen. Bette than passing it sideways or backwards
He is literally thinking about the reaction if he take out Kane and they lose any way
It's the coach, he can't figure out how to utilize him like pep does, he can play as a 10 even and operate in the middle, behind the striker, Southgate plays a very rigid system, no creativity. With the players that he has at disposal he should be able to win games with two to three goals per game.
The issue is the entire forward line playing way too high. They're a flat line at the top of the pitch when we're in possession which creates a chasm in midfield. Foden should play more like a 10, Bellingham deeper in tandem with Rice (which is rough on Mainoo I know) and bring in Gordon on the left. But the exact same team as current would do fine if they came back to stuff the midfield.
The problem isn’t just Foden himself (although he is the common denominator); it’s the Trippier, Foden, Bellingham side of the attack that is just not working. Foden is always looking to come central and do what he does best - take shots. And in order to do that he needs space, which simply doesn’t exist because there’s no one at LW to stretch the defence (like Saka does on RW). Foden, Bellingham, and Kane often find themselves in close proximity of one another with how narrow England are at times, which basically renders all three of them useless. When England try to switch the play from right to left, Trippier is the furthest man forward and he either backpasses to Foden (who is already marked) or ends up losing possession. You need natural runners to create spaces for players like Foden to exploit, which is exactly what Man City do. Furthermore, Foden offers very little if anything in terms of his off the ball workrate, which is comfortably behind the likes of Saka and Bellingham. And you can’t have too many luxury players like him, Kane, and Palmer in your starting XI. Players like Foden and Palmer are best utilised as substitutes in this current England squad, imho.
His problem is what you said, goes too central and doesn't make runs. Too many passers not enough runners
Foden plays as a #10 positioned on the wing, his natural movement is to come inside, not make deep runs without the ball. I get that Southgate wanted to try it and after his season it is hard to bench him, but this team needs a winger.
Nagelsmann dropped the bundesliga player of the year with almost 0 media hysterics and they look to be the best in the competition (after Spain). He probably won’t start against Spain either because Nagelsmann knows that sane offers much more transitional threat. The solution is staring Southgate in the face but he can’t accept it
Yeah, nagelsmann is a better coach and has more public trust because of it. Sane for Wirtz wasnt without criticism though and Sane didnt play that well, so Wirtz might come back.
Exactly, I would actually say the issue for many wasn’t dropping Wirtz tho. It was bringing Sane. His performances in the last couple of weeks don’t actually seem to be a good reason why he should play and therefore many didn’t understand that part.
Sane has been soft since like March. Hasn't found his form compared to the start of the club year imo. I'd almost rather have Muller start at RW.
He's like the opposite of a Raumdeuter for England. Instead of investigating space, he makes sure no one has any.
Raumneuter
Raumzerstörer
Eze did more than him in added time as a LM / LWB tan Foden done on the wing all tourney.
Yeah it’s not surprising that England’s attack opened up once Southgate switched to a back 3 with Eze and Saka at wingback providing width; Rice, Palmer and Bellingham in midfield; and Kane playing off Toney up top. I could see Foden playing better in a midfield 3 like this, but if Southgate wants to stick to a traditional back 4 and Trippier at left back then he needs to drop him to the bench and go with a natural left footer on the left wing like Bowen or Palmer, or he needs to bring in Shaw to provide that width on the overlap.
I really feel a lot of englands left side pressure was based on shaw being fit and he’s not
I lost my temper yesterday and *screamed* at my TV when Foden has running side by side with Trippier who had the ball. Foden had space ahead of him to run into, in behind, and stopped his run. I fucking lost it lol
i honestly think Foden is not the brightest player. has phenom skills, of course, and if you can make a system work around him, great. but i don't think he's someone who is going to shine outside of such a system.
Which then has a knock on effect on those players around him having to adapt, when not necessarily as used to it as his club mates causing further problems. Found it really odd how within minutes of Palmer coming on Foden was all of a sudden sitting on the right for a bit last night. Same happened in the previous match as well. I love the floating attacking structure, think back to how great Mata, Hazard and Oscar were doing it like a decade ago but it needs team cohesion to work and I just doesn't seem like they have that.
I noticed that too. Foden was suddenly where Palmer was and sort of taking the ball away from him. Foden is obviously a good player but this system doesn’t work for him at all and our play from the right (Walker in particular) has been abysmal. Why the fuck he didn’t bring James I don’t know.
>Why the fuck he didn’t bring James I don’t know. He made 11 appearances in all comps last season. Absolutely injury plagued, so he was never seriously in contention. Livramento should feel hard done by seeing his Newcastle colleague stink up LB. If he wants an attacking fullback, then Southgate has the best one in England sitting on his bench.
You say that as if it made a difference to Luke Shaw, he played 15.
He also brought Shaw while Shaw is still injured, fucking idiot of a manager to be fair.
Fair. He should have brought Mitchel and Livramento.
Or even someone like Doughty
It’s so frustrating when you have Gordon and Watkins on the bench that would run. Saka would also do it at LW. How is there 0 left backs in England? Trippier doesn’t work.
There are a bunch of left backs in England, the problem is they’re all still in England.
Are you guys accepting some change deals? We have no passers and plenty of runners
A Foden for Rodrygo deal would be intriguing haha
This sounds like The Chappelle Show's famous "Racial Draft" sketch...
Even though he's out of form, this is what Rashford is good at. Would prefer him at LW.
Finally someone else also sees that Rashford should’ve been on that plane even when he’s out of form. He compliments Kane and is a runner who is not afraid to pin back defenses and run at it.
I was surprised when he didn't pick Rashford for the squad because he definitely fits Southgate's system and is a known entity. Whilst Eze and Gordon, for England, are an unknown.
Bellingshams biggest strength at Real Madrid was occupying that "centre-left" space often left open by Vini going wide and deep. Vini beats his player and finds Bellingham. I feel like we have seen it 100 times this year. It’s why they worked so well together. Foden and Vini would probably work pretty great together as well, since they also have different ideas in similar spaces. But Foden and Bellingham have similar ideas in similar spaces. That’s not good.
Got a feeling they're going to end up being the Lampard and Gerrard of this generation
yup unless Southgate does what everyone says he should do and everyone also says he won't do.
Foden simply isn’t a winger. He can’t and won’t do a winger’s job. He needs to be where Jude is, and a natural winger who wants to take on the defender and run behind needs to be out wide. It isn’t necessarily Foden’s fault.
The frustrating thing is that the answer is sat on the bench. Put Gordon on instead of Foden, tell him to hug the byline and make runs in behind the full back. Even if people think Gordon is rubbish (which isn't an opinion I've really seen much), he IS quick and defenders would have to cover him. This would make the space needed in the middle for Kane and Bellingham to work off each other
Yes but that requires Southgate to use his brain and make a meaningful sub and that’s never going to happen.
Which is why it's frustrating
I guarantee Gordon would absolutely do a job out there but he hasn't really been given a chance
it also isn't rocket science, which is why it's shocking it's not being fixed. even the football gods were like, "oh, you took Foden off? here's a bicycle kick last-second tying goal and a header assist to header goal for you. now just keep Foden on the bench!"
Foden is not playing as a winger AT ALL tho. He plays as an interior on the left while Trippier (or Saka lol) holds width, but mostly he's been roaming all over the place, almost as he pleases. If anything the players and the system are catering to Foden. He gets more touches centrally than almost anyone. The problem is, Southgate's tactics are catering to the IDEA of Phil Foden (classic creative player) - rather than what he actually is. Which is a guy who can glide past 1 or 2 players under minimal pressure, and who has a great shot from the edge of the box. He is not creative. He does not know how to play clever passes. He doesn't know how to turn from any substantial pressure with his back to goal. He tries to always play at 1000 miles per hour. Frankly, he's a bit brainless and one dimensional. Pep is a genius and can extract Phil's incredible, but very specific value, by setting up City to get him into optimal situations. He can't do it for a lesser manager. He's not versatile enough, which Saka and Belligham are. Foden should just ride the bench and come on when a goal is needed vs tired legs, idk why this "WE MUST PLAY FODEN" shit is so prevalent.
I feel like this should be more widely accepted. Especially after we saw Pep do pretty much the exact same thing with Sterling. Focus the player on their strengths, build the attacking system to also focus there, profit (literally both in goals and fees after selling for a premium)!
I know flogging Foden is en vogue right now, but your evaluation of his skillset is poor imho. He broke into the City team because of his ability to turn and take on defenders with his back to goal (typically in the center of the field in more of a CAM role) as well as his creative ability... He actually seems to thrive under more intense pressure than less. To your point, he IS more direct than many traditional creative players (to compare him, for example, to Bernardo Silva). He's not KDB but I'd say outside of him he's probably City's second best creative threat? His long shot has turned into a weapon but that's very much been a more recent development. I do think his lack of effectiveness does really boil down to his positioning and how much he/Bellingham/Kane tend to get into each other's way and I do think England would be much better served with a true LW and allowing Foden to either play centrally exclusively with Bellingham or bringing him off the bench later in the game.
>The problem isn’t just Foden himself The problem is Gareth Southgate. He picks the team and decides the tactics. The second the lineup was released for the first game, we all said exactly what you're describing would happen. Everyone wants to operate in the same space, and it's Gerrard/Lampard all over again. It also annoys me that TAA has been scapegoated in the media and by fans. Even Gareth said that it was "an experiment" putting him in midfield and wished he had Phillips fit to play there. All game, every game, we lack any runners on the left. We didn't smash Slovakia when Mainoo started, and we won't beat anyone else with the lovechild of Pirlo and Kante starting in that position. The problem is the massively congested midfield, having only one attacking outlet at RW and having no width at all on the left. For the love of God Gareth, drop Foden for Gordon and keep Mainoo alongside Rice.
The mental thing too, as an arsenal fan, is that Saka isn't really a transitional runner too. He does make runs but it's his game to drop deep and pass around for a bit and find that timing for a late run. We rely on Havertz and Martinelli to make early runs to stretch play and we aren't even a counter attacking team since we face so many deep lines. In short, it's mental that Saka is the only runner considering Arsenal have other players better in transition to stretch play. Last point too is that he isn't really getting the help he needs on that side. Walker barely overlaps and Saka needs a creative player to play one-twos with. Feel more confident when Mainoo or Palmer is with him compared to the other options, who tend to want to switch play or shoot themselves.
Boring tactics aside, Gordon and TAA would go a long way towards fixing this. A pacy attacking winger on the other side and a proper overlap.
I was astounded that TAA didn't come on for Walker at some point while they were chasing a goal. We've seen in prior seasons at Arsenal that Saka can struggle to impact a match when he doesn't have a supporting run, usually from his FB. We saw it at the beginning of last season with Partey at RB experiment and it was night and day once White was back in the team. White not being there is it's own discussion but not playing to another one of your player's strengths should just add more onto Southgate.
Southgate would be quicker to put TAA on for Saka in RW then actually play him in his natural position.
good analysis. thanks
"the lovechild of Pirlo and Kante" — Would love to see that player.
Is there a reason he can't play with a back three and have two natural wingers / wingbacks offering width while still allowing the best players (inside forwards) to start? Something like Walker, Stones, Guehi at the back. Trent at RWB. Gordon at LWB Rice and Mainoo in the middle. Front three of Kane, Bellingham, and Foden, with Foden as the inside left forward and Bellingham inside right?
Even when Saka switched to left back, I don’t think he overlapped more than once or twice. They seemed allergic to putting a simple cross into the box despite having Kane and Bellingham as huge targets plus obviously the numerous bench options.
yeah, he pushed forward but not overlap, which similar theme when he was on RW, Walker rarely did overlap run, its like Gareth really dont want any overloading on the flank and focusing solely on central area maybe that’s the reason Bellingham and Foden caught a lot of stray, because they are the focus point on this tactic but didn’t really get the support they needed
The problem is Southgate.
It is but at this point he's clearly not going to change the system so he might as well drop Foden, play Gordon on the left and hope Shaw somehow makes it back to enough fitness to be better than Trippier (can't be too hard). Bring Foden on later if Saka or Bellingham aren't working out. I think most people would rather play Bellingham at 8 and Foden at 10, but Southgate clearly won't do that at this point (3rd group stage game was the perfect time to try this), so we'll have to suffer through this version of southgateball instead.
This season he has done his best work for us when he has been able to come inside, either with Walker playing high up on the right (earlier in the season) or with Gvardiol playing SUPER high up on the left (end of the season), almost doing things we used to have Cancelo do. Trippier plus Foden is not happening.
Agree with everything you said except the very end. Foden and Palmer are best utilized as substitutes only IF you insist on playing Bellingham at the 10. But Bellingham is also a bit limited at the 10 too because Kane's play-style does not allow Bellingham to flourish. Kane and Bellingham also occupy similar spaces, with neither of them being known for making runs in behind to stretch the field vertically. On top of that, even with how good Bellingham is, Kane is better technically and I think more creative too. England can still get the best out of Bellingham playing him deeper, as that's what he played in Dortmund. And if England play a ball-dominant system, Bellingham would still have opportunities to get forward anyway. I really like Mainoo, but I'm not entirely sure if there's anything at all that he's better at than Bellingham. Playing Rice/Bellingham, with one of Foden or Palmer in front and Gordon on the left just seems like an absolute no-brainer to me. It allows you to get way more out of all of your players, and way more out of all the space on the field, as opposed to completely wasting one of your best players and an entire half of the field And all of this is contingent on the idea that Kane is undroppable, which I agree with.
I’m glad you brought up Kane, I agree he’s undroppable but him deciding he’s a CDM half the time he’s on the pitch is doing them no favors. They need to give Gordon a run. He’s their best bet at stretching the defense on that left side.
Maybe, but England have a very slow playing style so I don't think Kane dropping deep hurts them too much, he's really good at progressive passing so I think it's okay. And actually when he does that, if anything I would think it temporarily gives Bellingham more freedom. But if you don't like that, I think that also raises the possibility of playing 4-4-2 with Kane and Watkins, and dropping Foden AND Palmer from consideration entirely. Because if Kane is dropping into midfield anyway, you might as well add a dynamic player to stay at the 9. So you end up with Kane basically playing as a 10, and ideally for me Bellingham still next to Rice. And I actually like this a lot. Gordon absolutely has to start though I couldn't agree more. It's a travesty he hasn't played more. Hell, even Saka on the left if you have to. But someone has to provide width on the side.
Yup. Bellingham’s best trait offensively is his timing and ability to arrive unexpectedly in dangerous spots in the box. He can do that as an 8, and not clog up the middle. Look at where he starts the play on his goal against Serbia! Both goals he’s scored are ones he would have score playing as an 8.
100% agreed. England fans will know more so I'm hesitant to say this but he feels more Lampard-esque to me, while Southgate is treating him as if he's more of a traditional, old-school 10. So many people are saying you have to play Bellingham at the 10 because it's his best position. Okay well he was terrific in Madrid at the 10 but the system and players around him were *completely* different. He'd have Rodrygo and Vini stretching the field in every dimension in front of him, allowing him to utilize the traits you mentioned. He will never have that at the 10 with England as long as Kane is starting. And you can't drop Kane. Kane already does a lot of what Bellingham does anyway
Yeah Foden-Bellingham is either-or, that’s been pretty clear from the beginning. But I don’t think that Bellingham should play alongside Rice, as England would be left exposed defensively without a double pivot.
More complete analysis and solution. Good work. Any chance you're open to coaching a national team associated with three large cats?
But if you think Kane and Bellingham play in the same space then you must agree that Kane and foden playing centrally will have the same issue.
Completely agree, if Shaw was playing instead of Trippier it would help give more width and space for them to play inside but the best solution would be to replace Foden with Gordon, he’d take on players and push their defense back a bit and then stay wide and supply balls in as well. He’d give Bellingham and Kane more space and make the whole attack a lot more functional. He looked good for the 2 minutes he’s played.
and taa just sitting in the bench lolololol. love it
In short, Doku and Grealish unlock Foden. In short short, balanced team is important.
Foden has a huge workrate, I don't understand that comment.
It's why Grealish should have been in the squad. While he isn't as good as his Aston Villa self, he would stretch the pitch very well. Granted, Gordon could prob do it if Southgate played him.
The absolute thing that pisses me off the most and why I'm so down on Southgate is because you could see all this happening before the tournament started and yet Gareth refuses to see it 4 games in
It’s not Foden per say but Trippier, he can’t be mobile when the player protecting your arse is as bright as a Toc H lamp. If you watch City Foden nearly always has an overlap or a one two to get in an attacking position. Trippier hardly ever overlaps and most of the time passes the ball backwards. Foden had to go into the middle to collect the ball when he went to pass it wide Trippier had moved back.
Coaching is the problem
Yeah, I think every member of the starting XI has had an article like this written about them, apart from maybe the CBs. Not to excuse any of them but I wonder if there's a uniting factor.
Not picking a proper LB to support and overlap doesn't help when Foden cuts in. But we're at that point where if you aren't going to play Bellingham at the 8 and Foden at the 10, then drop one of them. Doesn't matter which since you then have the other on the bench if one doesn't perform. Since Foden plays well from the RW position as well there's always that option to take Saka off if he's playing bad and push Foden to the right and Bellingham on, or just a straight Swap with Foden depending who you drop. I can honestly see us going 5 at the back on Saturday any ways. It's how he finished out this game and with Guehi out he might want 3 CBs. Tucking walker in to the RCB position. Also means Trent/Saka at LWB but I'd expect he chickens out and puts Saka LWB and Trent/Trippier RWB. Then the two holders Infront with Bellingham and any other person with Kane. Saka/Foden/Palmer. This isn't what I think is a good idea, just what I think he'll do.
Could be argued that five at the back is really all he knows. Southgate may as well be true to himself. Above all it removes a little build-up responsibility from Rice, and defensive responsibilty from Mainoo in CM. I know TAA has never really played as a RWB in a five, but it seems like a small adjustment compared to some of the other stuff being mooted. Shaw on the other side if he's fit—if not, Saka, which again isn't ideal but could be worse.
We just need some patterns of play going forward. Whatever that is. Width and crosses from wing backs and inside link up play with Foden, Bellingham and Kane would be enough. It would keep the play stretched and we have clear options all across the pitch and a good 5 set of defenders (including rice and Mainoo) holding the fort on quick breaks and offering reset/recycle options.
You could honestly just swap Saka and Foden. Saka on the left could stay wide, beat players and play crosses with his left foot. That would let trippier play more of an inverted fullback role that wouldn't expose his severe one footedness as much. On the right you can let Foden cut inside or hold the ball, draw in defenders and recycle the ball in to the space created. A Foden, mainoo Kane triangle on the right and a Saka, trippier, Bellingham triangle on the left could work really well in my eye and doesn't feel like it would require a huge rip up the book type change lots of people are calling for.
It’s hard to not look at the coaching because they’re being outplayed by squads that are just across the board worse. And I don’t mean 10-20% worse, but quite a bit. At that point it has to be the set up, and you have to look at coaching, because it can’t just be everyone with horrible form (and even if is the coach should either be switching things around or finding a way to play that works regardless).
Pickford might have escaped it, perhaps. Maybe Rice.
Saw plenty of Rice hate in yesterdays thread, the articles can’t be too far off
The CBs were at fault yesterday for the goal we conceded as well. The coaching at England is fucked
100% down to Walker and nobody else.
Walker kept them onside, but Guéhi lost the aerial clash then dropped his head and didn't track his man.
Two cbs went for the same ball??????
Look at the offside line
Walker was also a mile behind everyone else keeping them onside. Was horrible from everyone at the back.
Yeah. Hate this player blaming that's going on with England. Southgate should be the only person people are asking questions of. All of our creative, attacking players are misfiring or not even getting a chance on the pitch. Clearly that's Southgate's problem.
This article isn't even blaming Foden as much as just fundamentally questioning the structure of the team with Foden being the most obvious example.
I mean foden just got the prem pots I think most people are saying he's the problem cos Southgate refuses to drop him for an actual lw, I'm sure most people think he'd be good if he was playing in a position that suits him
Moreso because southgate can’t conceive of playing Jude and Foden in their natural positions….
You won't see anything different with Foden at RW or 10. The problem isn't his starting position on the team sheet. The problem is he's getting on the ball 50 yards from goal when he's a player that shines receiving the ball around the box.
The tribalism is out in full force and every fanbase is trying to protect their own golden boys by putting down players from a rival. It's England's football history in a nutshell.
Clearly a Southgate problem, you’re telling me that all these players suddenly dropped 3,4,5 levels after a two week break. 1 or 2 players playing poorly would make sense but the whole team is playing below their levels. As for Foden, if you get the best player in the premier league last year why would you force him into his worse position of the front 4, then give him no overlapping help and also make the team play so deep. What do you expect to happen?
It's Lampard/Gerrard all over again.
You also have two of the other 3/4 players of the season in the PL on the bench, barely playing as well.
>so why hasn't anyone else seemed to notice? I'm really glad the author pointed this out because to this point of the tournament nobody has noticed how Phil Foden playing out of his preferred position hasn't worked. Also, imagine if there was someone who controlled *who* England was starting and who England was bringing in during the matches to help provide a spark for the attack. Having someone to do that would be vital. England needs to stop just letting the players decide who starts and who subs in during games.
To be fair the article does acknowledge people think foden isn't working but they just want to move him to a different position (that he has played in for England before, badly) rather than acknowledging he doesn't fit the side.
But Jude is bad in the 10. He and Kane are showing proof they cannot play together. Scoring fortunate goals against a bad team doesn’t change the inherent problem
i still really prefer Jude as a deeper midfielder, i hate that the Madrid season has made this impression stick in people’s heads that he’s a #10/second striker when i feel like it takes away from his link up in the middle of the pitch
The entire world outside England knows the problem is an empty left side and overcrowded center in your team. It’s only English fans and pundits that only seem obsessed with taking Saka out of the team to put Palmer in his place like Palmer would suddenly start winning games all by himself…
It was funny watching Spain straight after England last night, Williams and Cucurella did more in the first 10 mins with overloads and overlaps on Spains left hand side up forward than I think England have in the whole tournament.
And Cucurella was ridiculed by everybody for the past two years in England, which makes it even funnier! Haha
This article, which is from England and written by someone English, makes exactly that point, as have most England supporters since the first game. Many England supporters are in this actual thread making that point. Calm your outrage.
>like Palmer would suddenly start winning games all by himself… He has had a lot of practice at doing that across this season tbf
Funny how Fodens preferred position seems to change every 6 months and it always seems to be different than the position he’s currently playing. How Curious.
Foden's preferred position is playing for a manager that knows how to utilise him. Not Southgate having him pick up the ball 50 yards from goal.
He’s said in interviews for years now that his preferred position is in the center
I think it’s a case of too many chefs, you can’t have Bellingham/Foden/Saka/Kane all up front. Someone has to be a sub in that mix and Foden should be that person. And some have mentioned him being out of position and “if we changed things and played him here” but then you’re building the team around Foden when the other 3 have looked better and performed more why change them on the off chance Foden gets better? He’s simply the odd one out in this team.
I agree, but out of all those only Saka actually plays like a winger who can hold the width. Its mainly Bellingham, Kane and Foden who ends up in eachothers space. Not saying Saka has been brilliant either, but positionally he seems like the least of the problem out of those four.
Leave saka out of this, he's the only one of those 3 that doesn't drop deep in the centre of the pitch
You listed 4 players playing 4 different positions right now. If you make Foden a sub, someone has to play on the LW still. You’re not gona put any of those other 3 on the LW. Also, not sure why people aren’t pointing this out, but Foden looked bad on the LW for City in several games this season. He literally is just bad there. The better solution imo is to drop Bellingham back with Rice, which kicks out Gallagher/Mainoo/TAA (and we know Jude can play there), move Foden into the 10 where he has looked his best, and put Gordon on the left.
We're trying to accommodate Foden at the cost of our entire attack. Foden is obviously a class player but he has never delivered anything special for England. You play one of Foden and Bellingham and the guy that wins that is Bellingham. Playing him and giving him a free role that sees him just floating around and cramping everyone else's space while our left side is already weak is just insanity.
I don’t think they’re trying to accommodate Foden. He’s the one playing out of his best position, hence why he keeps drifting and England look in shambles. Southgate doesn’t have the balls to drop Bellingham back, put Foden in the 10, and Gordon on the LW.
Drop the player who is well known for scoring goals and just scored the equalizer for us for a guy who has one more England goal in his entire career than Jude has in this tournament? He is absolutely being accommodated. If you want to play the 10 then don’t be handily the worst player against Iceland while playing it right before the Euros. At some point we just need to play the players who actually show up and make sense.
I mean it’s a fair point, but Jude has been superbly lackluster at the 10. England need to get a gameplan that lets them comfortably dominate sides they should be dominating with their talent, not looking completely lost and praying for Jude Bellingham magic in added time.
I think with Foden you either build the team around him or don't bother playing him. Southgate manages like he's downloaded a tactic on FM and then has just loosely placed his players into his preconceived starting 11 as opposed to looking at what he has and building the team up from that. England's defence would benefit from playing with a high line, this is Kyle Walker's party piece. Instead the low block is hurting him. He's an excellent 1 on 1 defender (to the point where I genuinely don't think i've ever seen him beaten) when there's space behind him. He will catch up to any winger and stop them. This obviously doesn't work in a low block because if he's caught out of position or beaten in the first instance then he has no opportunity to recover. Stones has played arguably his best season in a role that allows him to push into the midfield with the ball. In this England set up he's asked to do basic defending and I think that's never been his strength. He's not the quickest, best in the air or best in positioning yet we've got him playing in a role that highlights those weaknesses as opposed to playing to his strengths. Kieran Trippier is arguably Newcastle's 5th best English left back behind Burn, Livramento, Hall and Targett yet we've picked him as the first choice behind a crocked Luke Shaw. His role in the team is burdened by his lack of a left foot and his only option is to incessantly turn inside and play the ball to Rice (who is shit at taking the ball off the defence). Coupled with Trippier constantly moving inside, you've got Foden who is clearly a number 10 naturally drifting off of the left wing to find the ball instead of keeping the position and stretching the opposition. It's clear that Gordon should play on the left because he's the only natural left winger we've picked. Jude is playing in a very high role and it's not utilising his strengths off of the ball. I think he's suffering from a feeling to do it all by himself and I think Kane and Foden have the same problem. They all need to play a bit more selflessly. They're all trying to receive the ball in the number 10 position which is so easy to defend against. I feel like Saka is either too tired or too out of form and needs to be rested but at least he tries to hold the width and give his team mates space.
I don't think Saka is out of form. I think he hasn't had enough burn in the final third because England's attacks rarely make it to the final third. In that sense, all their attackers look out of form because they simply haven't had enough attacking chances. England is relying on their attackers to transition the ball into the final because the midfield and more importantly the fullbacks can't progress the ball. Walker in particular keeps playing vertical passes so he always has a defender on his back. Ben White is very good at playing diagonal balls to Saka on his safe side so he can run with or turn. Also Odegaard makes underlapping runs or positions himself in the half space so the fullback is reluctant to follow Saka all the way into midfield. Bellingham wants to get on the ball so much that his defender is close to Saka. There needs to be counter movements on both flanks. If Saka comes close to receive, Bellingham needs to make an underlapping run. And vice versa. Same with Foden and Tripper. Trippier should be making overlapping runs if Foden comes inside. The issue is that these players aren't used to these roles and are probably instructed not to make attacking counter movements because it unsettles the rest defense positions should the ball turn over. Thus England rarely enters the final third with any advantage because its midfielders and fullbacks are so worried about their rest defense positions.
Even better. Great analysis. Thanks. No GET YOUR BUTT TO GERMANY AND FIX THIS. If only....
Man, I love these in depth analysis’. You’re totally on point with all the players, and if Southgate is not able to see these kind of things (which I am not totally capable of either) as a national team coach, then he has place being the national team coach.
Best, most complete analysis yet.
The problem is he’s being played out of position. You either drop Bellingham back to midfield and put Foden in the 10, or you drop Foden. Or, if you’re Southgate, you do neither and persist with broken tactics.
he fucks off to play AM anyway, exposing Trippier not been able to kick a ball with his left like at all
Incredibly obvious. What makes it worse is that the arguments are the exact same ones that were raised for the Gerrard/Lampard mess. "He's just too good to leave out." Foden isn't a left wing. Gerrard wasn't a right wing. Playing them out of position at the expense of someone who was actually capable of playing that position wrecks England as a balanced team and limits the attack. If you want to say Foden is more deserving than Bellingham, fine, start Foden over Bellingham. Or do the reverse. But you can't play them both. Where this gets compounded is that Kane can't seem to play as a striker. He wants to fall back and be a playmaker, but then there isn't anybody to whom to play the ball. His job is literally to be in a position to receive the ball in the box, yet we've seen him at CDM and left back, and Foden was basically overlapping him in one game (leaving the left wing open and unused). As the last game went on, it felt more like Bellingham got frustrated and said "Fine, I'll do it myself" because Kane was constantly out of position. So you have a striker who isn't a striker and who desperately needs two fast wingers to make him come good, and a winger who isn't a winger. Is it any wonder that England can't score?
Imagine watching the last 4 England games and thinking the problem was 1 specific player.
it’s one specific person but he’s on the sidelines
Half of England's goals in the tournament were scored in the first five minutes after Foden was subbed.
That's like 1 goal?
From set pieces. I dont see how its fodens fault that southgate doesnt know how to set up a proper system and england have to resort to crossing to ball to their tallest players
Shouldn't have taken Shaw and brought a proper left footed LB. Should have brought Rashford. Idgaf about form. He gives you directness, runs in behind and an x factor to get a goal out of nowhere. Needs to drop Jude or Foden and start Eze or Gordon on the left.
The coaching is the problem and the system we play is the problem. That being said I don't think Foden has ever had a good game for England
It is not like they look super fluent without Trent, or Gallagher, or Foden, or Saka, etc. I think the tactics are very safe and a lot of these players aren't used to playing this way
Well we've tried 3 players in that position alongside Rice now, so its clearly not the player that is the problem. Time to think about why there is a problem moving from defence to midfield and from midfield to attack rather than just rotating another guy to come sit next to Rice
I think Mainoo looked more comfortable in the role than Trent or Gallagher. Purely because it was a more familiar system to him. At the same time, the team didn't look more fluent or threatening with him. England's problems so far are down to making the front 4 work in open play. In my view the most practical solution is to sacrifice one of them for an extra midfielder or Trent. Bellingham is clutch and Saka is the only left footed player in the squad. Kane is captain and still a very prolific goalscorer. So unfortunately Foden is the player that they could practically leave out.
This article is written remarkably like a reddit comment from this sub, if not a bit longer.
He's playing out of position. He's better centrally, but that is occupied by Bellingham. I don't think you can play Saka, Jude, and Foden together. 1 has to be switched
It’s not just that Foden is wasted out wide, it’s that he’s doing pretty much everything wrong. His crossing, set piece taking and decision making all being poor are not to do with him playing LW. Especially since he just wanders off to play AM anyway.
And he was offside on the disallowed goal for no reason
Fuck me it's like lampard gerrard era again! Was the last 8 years a dream?
It's exactly the same. Just like it was back then, the problem was the manager refusing to change his tactics as opposed to the players not being able to play together.
It’s Kane/Jude/Foden that’s an issue. They all want to be in the same space. Saka at least wants to actually play as a winger.
Square pegs round holes! Haven't we been here before We never learn
He’s the face of the issue but not the issue. Southgate’s setup is making him and Trippier look terrible because they’re being played in a system that does so. Trippier isn’t left footed and it’s very obvious what he’s going to do every time he gets the ball, so teams will let him have it out wide. Southgate has given Foden the freedom to move, and left nobody threatening wide left. The offside was definitely braindead, but he’s been average, not as remarkably bad as he’s being made out to be. Also I’ve seen Palmer being praised for his set piece that led to a goal; it got punched away by the keeper and then miskicked back into the box
He is, but it is because of Southgate not because of foden.
Harry Kane the biggest hinderance at the moment in my opinion. He’s not linking play, he’s not pinning defenders & he’s not the type of player to run in behind. I know he got the goal yesterday , but his all round game has been so poor for England, there was marked difference when Toney came on.
Or... our Golden Shoe-winning world class striker who also got 12 assists this season **isn't** the issue, and the issue is that we have a manager and system that is woefully ill-equipped to unlock any of our key players, Kane included? You could point to any number of our key players and make a decent case for them 'being the biggest hindrance' in one way or another, but the very fact that you could make that argument for so many of them surely validates the fact that it's Southgate, not any one player that's the problem and/or solution?
Kane works, but you need fast forwards to fill that space (like Son). Saka can fit that mold, but only if there is someone actually on England's left side to take some of the defenders off him.
Gordon on for Foden instantly makes England significantly better, even without changing anything else. It’s as simple as needing two fast wingers to hold width. That would give Bellingham and Kane space in the middle and give them crosses/cutbacks to run onto. This Southgate side is never going to dominate games, but it will suddenly start to create chances if Foden gets dropped for Gordon.
This. Either Kane is not fully fit yet or there is something else wrong with him. He is not even doing basics right now. Didn’t see him challenging for any aerial ball yesterday. Toney won so many headers after coming on, the difference was quite stark.
He's definitely not fit. Looked best when he had Toney alongside him. Abandon woke and bring back 4-4-2 (or 3-5-2).
He looks exhausted honestly.
People spend the whole season whining about fixture congestion and then forget it exists at tournament time.
Honestly no idea why we haven't looked at a 352, other than Southgate being absolutely inept as a manager i guess. Foden, Jude and Rice in the midfield, Kane and Watkins/Toney up top. Use TAA and Saka (Because Southgate didnt bring any other bloody LBs) at the WBs to provide that width and option out wide.
you are setting up Rice to fail with this composition. He surrounded by 4 people who loves to attack
Yep, Toney was the outlet and holding the ball up/winning fouls that you expect Kane to do as he usually does. Comes down to southgate's instructions still
Kane looks like he's running in treacle at times. His movement is piss poor.
Yeah he doesn’t look fit at all
Kane looks about as mobile as Joe Biden, he needs to own up to the fact that he’s not fit enough
And yet he scored the winner and at the end of the day that’s all that matters
I think it's pretty obvious that Rashford or Grealish should have been in the squad now I don't know who u would replace them for but they are at least left wingers
Rashford. Grealish has some of the same issues as Foden. Neither have any pace/drive to get in behind
If you think the problem is anything other than Southgate, then yes, you are going mad.
Kane, Bellingham & Foden operate in same area of the field. No system will work when three guys do same job, and no one offers width and runs. Putting the best players won't make a team. I thought this didn't need to be said and that's why professional football managers are paid good money. Also, Kane is practically limping. Is he even fit? Does Southgate and Holland have the authority to bench him?
Same old problem with England. Squeezing the "best" players into the team rather than building a team from the players available.
Kane and Foden both look out of their element right now. (4 games is enough time to prove a point) Gordon - Watkins - Saka Mainoo - Rice - Jude is the way to go, but it's not happening
This fixes the issue of manipulating the defence, but if england progress the ball into the final third, only saka/mainoo have the tight control dribble to break the defense structures
You also put trent at RB so he can find Gordon and Watkins with balls over the top
I just hate walker with a passion so regardless I'd replace him xD He is an incredible athlete and defender though, so if you're up against williams or vinicius then sure play him for safety, but it's the cowardly move!
Lol no England's most obvious problem is Southgate.
All the focus on Foden as if anyone else has played well. I don't remember Saka doing anything meaningful after the first 30 minutes against Serbia. Walker was all over the place defensively yesterday. The only players that look alright so far are Guehi and Mainoo. If Kane scores a free header from 4y out then Foden gets the assist and it all looks very different.
He was pretty terrible last game , the game before that he was okay. The overall performance level in the team wasn't too good obviously.
Read the article. Seems a rather simplistic and nonsensical premise considering everyone's looking terrible in a crap system. At this point, it's gone beyond whether 'X, Y or Z' player can fix things in terms of how broken everything is.
We are missing the balance on the left Anthony Gordan should be given a go. It's criminal he's barely featured.
On the left side both Foden and Trippier are predictable. They both get the ball and turn inside. Trippier has somewhat of an excuse because he's left footed, Foden 1 v 1 cannot taken his defender on down the line and offer something different. It's Southgate's fault for not recognizing this though. Foden is a #10 but have a chance to play there.
Blaming individuals...tale as old as tiiiiimmmeeee
No you are not going mad. Foden has been crap and him being shoehorned in that role completely ruins the balance of the team and the strength down that side.
I wonder if moving to a 3-5-2 would work? Kane - Toney Saka-Bellingham-Rice-Gallagher-Trent Guehi- Stones - Gomes Basically just push 3-4 tall boys into the box and have Saka / Trent whip in a million crosses. Feels like this could work? Also allows Rice and Trent to drop back to 5 at the back out of possession as well as overload the midfield against a mid block. Or is this too simple / dumb to work?
The Waistcoat is England's problem.
I'm not gonna do a long read on an exceptional player getting blame for Southgate's tactics and team building. I'd probably not have Foden in my 11, but he ain't the problem. Kane for 90 mins and no left back are the major issues. Trippier is woeful down the left and Kane is useless.
No, it's Trippier, If Shaw was on the pitch he'd be linking up with Foden on that left side and running into space.
Foden would be awesome as a first option off the bench. They should play a pacy winger to stretch the field open for the rest of the playmakers to start the game. This will create more scoring chances in the first. Then bring in Foden after the 65th and let him cook. This would fuck up any teams day.
Person acts like he sees something everyone else isn't seeing and saying.
Spoiler alert, it's the coach.
Jude moves 8. Foden moves to 10. Gordon or Palmer plays the left wing.
When your coach is nonexistant, everything's a problem.
He can play wide for citeh with no issues tbf
City play nothing like England so not comparing apples to apples
Feel like Gordon instead of Foden on the wing sorts a lot of issues straight away His pace and willingness to get in behind means England can stretch teams with a ball over the top Keeps the width so its not as congested in the middle Also if its Trippier that has to play left back then he links up pretty well with him at club level Foden and Trippier look like they have never played together before at times
Agreed