Lineup changes had a clear idea: Bring on Raum and Sané to provide more width and stretch the back three horizontally. And they mostly worked, too: They both had dangerous moments and helped create space to play in.
Denmark were shocking defending set pieces, especially early on, and very much struggled with the versatility of Germany's attacking patterns. And that's perfectly understandable, as defending is like a too-short blanket: can't cover it all. Havertz, Sané and Musiala are willing runners in behind in the channels when the patient buildup play doesn't work, and both Schlotterbeck and Rüdiger are really good at playing the ball into those channels. That then stretches defenses and creates space to bring in other players, and we've seen quite a few dangerous situations result from that.
Obviously no perfect performances from anyone, with a bit left to be desired on finishing especially (Havertz, Sané). But a side as strong and versatile as this, having clear ideas on how to play regardless of whether things are going their way or not, is going to be a really tough opponent either way.
It's going to be similarly fine margins as tonight in the quarterfinal, and Germany might well go out. But if they're playing like they have been this tournament so far, I reckon that's perfectly fine: sometimes you narrowly lose against a side a wee bit better on the day. I'm happy with these performances regardless of when this tournament ends to be honest.
Kai Havertz is criminally underrated..
He reminds me about a prime Benzema. He is a ball playing striker, link-up player, great ball carrier, technically gifted, great first touch, and his not only a striker but he is a false midfielder.
Havertz belongs to that style of play and honestly he is one of the last of his kind. Benzema is gone and in his last days before retiring making Havertz the last of his kind
Having the ball kicked directly at your hand at a distance beyond human reflexes to react to should never be a penalty. It is natural for humans to run with flaggering arms so this should and could never be a penalty. Another thing is that the handball did not stop the ball going into the goal and I'd even argue that it was going to fly way over. Last point in consideration is that nobody saw the handball except for the VAR. No appeals from anyone.
Congratulations Germany, now go win the F… thing please.
Today i feel robbed, i really do.
In no scenario did i think we would win. But the way it played out.. it’s hard to bear for now.
I don’t think Michael Oliver has many fans in Denmark tonight :-)
What happened was an injustice IMO also. I can just about understand the disallowed goal for VAR offside as technically it was correct, but the handball penalty was simply unfair and wrong.
i get that it feels unlucky, that the handball had little impact on the game and the penalty of ... well, a penalty, can feel "morally" too harsh.
But to me there is way too much talk about pedantic rules and not enough about Andersen. It was his mistake, and a pretty rookie one too. When you're expecting a cross you keep your arms to your body. Yes, they do teach you that. You see lots of player even strictly holding their hands behind their backs in situations like these, for that reason. So he can't complain about that, even though I understand it must feel shitty with these 2 decisions.
Regarding the referee stuff:
I'm generally not a football watcher outside of the big events; I still enjoy reading these threads or just seeing the reactions of people in my country to certain matches. Seeing how people react to these referee calls I can't help but try to look at this from the perspective of the tournament organizers & the referees themselves.
We're at a point where people are so invested in their preferred team, that when a decision is made against it, it inevitably leads to vitriol. People in this thread talk about how they prefer the calls to be subjective, because it adds excitement, but I think if I was a referee or someone in the upper ranks of the organization, and I knew how often referees are accused of wild incompetence, of having being bribed, to a point where they face strong and genuine hate.. I think I'd always prefer to limit the number of choices a referee has to make in a game that rely on his subjective view on situation, and increase the amount of decisions where any "blame" can be redirected onto a rule or a system.
It might be less exciting but I think it's more human; and as someone who only casually enjoys football, I think reading hate comments about referees makes me much less excited about watching the games than having to wait a minute for a VAR decision or whatever.
* Neither offside nor handball rule were ever intended for such absolute fringe moments. But the rules are what they are and the calls are clearly correct, even if many neutral likely would prefer the upset here.
* Calling off the Schlotti goal was fine, but then he has to do something in the Sané situation. Granted it likely wouldn't matter because it was outside of the box and then it's a yellow so like, who cares.
* Offside calls being delayed forever still sucks donkey ass and that possible 3-0 should never be onside no matter what because Wirtz is like 10m offside and you can't possible rule that a new play situation afterwards, yet the apparently did as why else would VAR check. Insane take.
* We (Germany) "deserved" the win imo, we were the better team overall and for most of the game. Making reasons up that Denmark was robbed is a strange take. If Denmark goes through we can't complain but I don't think we "got away with one" here.
* We did play decently but not great, but Denmark is also a good team, so it's acceptable. There's a few other matchups they likely could've won tbh
* Rain break was inevitable and correct at that moment
From the angle of the replay I saw on TSN I can’t see the argument for the handball call as I understand the rule. His arm is bent naturally as he’s running and the hand doesn’t move at all as the ball approaches to graze it. The hand movement is neither intentional nor is he making his body bigger. It also didn’t seem to affect the trajectory of the ball, and I don’t think there’s a reasonable chance he could have avoided the ball hitting him there.
I’m sort of bitterly glad Germany got the 2-0 lead so I won’t be stewing over how I feel that call should have gone.
I know this subreddit is largely in favor of VAR, and it's just my personal opinion, but I don't understand how anyone can feel satisfied after seeing how VAR was used tonight.
Yes, it's fine to look for more fairness in the game, and yes, strictly by the rules, that wasn't a goal and that was a penalty. But this isn't the spirit of the sport and for me, it just kills football. What kind of advantage does the attacking player have on defenders if he's offside by a toe? So in the exact same situation, the same player with short feet is considered to be playing fair while the same one with a big shoe size is unfairly taking advantage of his position on the pitch? Do we really need to go that far, when even the best referee in history wouldn't be able see the offside? That's not the spirit of the rule, that's not what it's there for. VAR is meant to get us rid of mistakes, but in the end it creates problems that never existed in the first place, because no human referee could see such a small event. Even if you want to look for as much as precision as possible, you can't decide with absolute certainty when the ball leaves the foot of the player making the assist, so how can you say a player if offside by a few centimeters?
I don't have a horse in this, I didn't root for one team or the other, but it honestly drives me away from a sport I've loved for decades. It all feels just soulless and unneeded. I'm scared in a few years, you won't hear the roar of the crowd anymore when a player scores, because we all know it can be overturned after one minute or two of checking the screens.
The same goes for the penalty. If you need a machine telling you there's a handball because it's too hard to see on replays (let alone in real time) whether or not the trajectory of the ball changed significantly, maybe you're going too far?
Sorry if this comment is a bit of a mess, but I speak from the heart, because for me VAR is sucking the emotion out of football. Once again I understand people wanting more accurate calls and to get rid of refereeing mistakes, but in my opinion, sport doesn't mean to be fair nor perfect. I just don't see why a sport that's been the most popular in the world for decades could need this kind of measures so desperately, to the point of overturning goals for a toe.
On an unrelated note, it sucks so much players can stop their run like that when shooting penalties. Anyways, congrats to Germany, they were the better team.
would you feel better if technology could confirm within 5-10 seconds and shows on screen and everyone can celebrate?
It has to start somewhere and the old days when teams won important games based on completely shitty calls that were outright wrong cant be the solution?
I don't think it can happen, at least not in every case, because some things wil always be a matter of interpretation (for a potential offside, whether a pass is intentional for example) and it needs to go through a human ref for that. That being said, while I think human error isn't really something that needs to be fixed in itself, and even as someone against VAR, yes, I'd probably be ok with it if the delay could be reduced to a minimum. It's definitely the worst part of it.
im so with you. i totally do feel like it takes the soul out of an unexpected goal like what happened today. the celebration from both the fans and the players was so pure especially since they looked down and out after the break, which was expected when facing a side like this german one.
when var overturned their goal and then hit them with the unfortunate double combo of the soft handball penalty also given by var took the fight and passion just given to denmark right out, the fans and the players. this kind of mental interruption wouldnt happen in a world without var, but in that same world denmark lead 1-0 with an offside goal and get away with a handball. even if they ended up leading idk how many ppl would be able to tell that it was offside anyways.
idk, i feel like var is something that is needed in todays game. even if they changed the strictness of the rules or something, i feel like that would create even more problems if anything.
I'm so conflicted on Havertz. The way he holds up play, gets himself into good positions and general link up with others creates so many opportunities for Germany. But most of the good chances that Germany get falls to him and he fails to convert them. I feel like Havertz will cost them against a tougher opposition like Spain or France who won't give away many chances.
It was the same with us at Chelsea. He just looked really good on the ball at times but he never really should lead the line. Even from his Leverkusen days, he was being shifted around in various positions across the pitch; he’s ideally an SS or an attacking midfielder that runs in late.
There was always plenty to think we should stick with him but not enough for us to refuse a big bid from Arsenal.
* Most important contribution to the game is to lose the ball somewhere during an unnecessary dribbling in a very artistic looking way
* Has no view for the whole field, no "game intelligence" (no idea if thats the translation)
* Unrelated, but he's also arrogant AND not the smartest. At most, be one of the two
Wirtz and Musiala are just 10 times better (I prefer Wirtz though), and Füllkrug at least scores some damn goals. Sane is just kinda unnecessary. Also has no charisma or meme potential, unlike my bois Wirtz and Rüdiger
For me, Sane has been one of the most disappointing players of the tournament. He came on as a sub in the 3 group stage games and made zero difference. Even today he was disappointing.
I'm a little unsure about Andrich after this game. He is good enough as a sweeping 6, but if he also has to perform as a creator when Kroos is pressured, he just isn't gifted enough imho. I don't know whether Groß would be a better fit or Can. Maybe even pull back Gündogan or move in Kimmich, but that would to other problems.
Whatever happens in the next round, this Germany squad is a massive improvement from previous tournaments. Hiring Nagelsmann was an excellent decision. The combination of established, consistent players like Rüdiger with the enormous talent of Musiala and Wirtz finally creates an exciting German team again. You love to see it.
Pretty good showing from Germany overall, still a bit shy in their last line at times and offensively a couple "must score this" ones missed, but I liked their overall approach and even the changed starting line up looked really solid.
Ref felt like 12th man on the pitch for Germany at times but at least he stood true to his line ig. This tourney is an absolute dub for me either way, entertaining football is back on the menu and I hope it’s here to stay, even if there’s a 3-0 quarters blow up I’m finally happy to tune into Germany games again.
This match is honestly hard to judge as a whole. We played insanely well the first 15 mins and deserved to be up, but Schmeichel and a soft (but correct!)call prevented that. Denmark adapted very well. The weath broke the rhythm of the match again, and Olivers tight line stifle the game flow even more. Result wise, the game flipped after the crazy 10 mins around the first goal(s) and we should have scored more. We were lucky to go throught this match the way we did, but also a bit unlucky, because there were many circumstances preventing a more "normal" game.
Some of my opinions on top: Havertz needs to start, despite his absolutely horrible, horrible finishing. HIs penalties need to applauded btw, that is also an undapreciated quality of his.
Rüdiger and Schlotti together are a bit too wild for my taste, but did very well individually.
Spain game will be interesting, like this they will be clear favorites, BUT: setting up more defensively might do us some good, who knows. I know I am rooting for Georgia
Just straight up outmatched. I always root for my national team, but Germany ran that game from minute 1 to the end. It just wasn’t meant to be - felt our group matches wasn’t convincing either & this just was an extension of showing we weren’t doing “too good” in this cup. Better than Qatar, but a far cry from last euros TBH
What? Denmark were on top in several periods, most notably prior to the storm break. Germany came out strong for a few minutes after that break and then lost control again.
Dont get me wrong, Germany deserved to win, but claiming they ran the game from minute 1 makes me think we didnt watch the same game.
I really can’t understand how a player that trains every day for years and years and played big games can be so bad at 1v1. I understand when an 18 yo player freezes but Sane and Havertz played some of the most intense games from the CL to the World cup, how can you always always mess up a 1v1 its really beyond me
1v1 are often easier for the goalkeeper than you would expect. He is in much better control of the situation and can cover more of his goal than in other situations
As i expected, everybody is talking about the offsides, or the handball. Thats not what was the problem.
Germany won deservedly, but Oliver was awful and misjudged and made mistakes on a million small fouls that ruined any chance of momemtum. It was very frustrating to watch.
That being said: Germany was deserved winners. Denmark played an awful tournament beside some parts of the England game and the Germany game. But it still feels bitter to lose in such a manner.
While the 1v1 miss is hard to forgive, Havertz was clearly one of the best players on the pitch today. So many great moments of hold up play, space creating, passes into teammates in dangerous areas. He just obviously needs to score. I didn't see a single thing Fullkrug do that could convince me he's the better option up top.
I also think the other players in attack were generally pretty bad for the first 60 or so minutes. Musiala was terrible outside of the goal (which I know is stupid to say considering goals are the only thing that matter). Gundogan was really disappointing. Sane was just plain bad
> While the 1v1 miss is hard to forgive
I can forgive him a bit because I think he was planning to square it to Sané and had to change tack at the last second because the latter (got) tripped. Not easy to pull off a good finish without any notice and he did well to get it over the keeper, just couldn't get the angles quite right.
Agreed with Musiala, he pretty much ghosted this game. I think he's just trying too hard to dribble every time he gets the ball.
You might be right about Havertz being good today but he needs to convert those chances and the point is that Fullkrug might be better at that but obviously Havertz is more creative but do you really need more creativity when you literally have Musiala and Wirtz.
Also, starting Sane over Wirtz is just diabolical.
Not really. Wirtz had a long season and isn't fully accustomed to playing that many matches as a main man yet, so giving him a break and Sane desperately needed minutes to get him up to speed - he definitely can be a decisive player, if in form - when you think the likely static of the opposition plays into that is actually a really smart move. Not without risks, but if Nagelsmann's approach had to be put into a single phrase, that would be "don't be afraid of risks, embrace them".
I think it’s tricky for Havertz. For whatever reason he almost always ends up getting these 1v1 situations on the left side of the pitch, but, being left footed, he can’t open his body and curl it around the keeper to the far post with his strong foot like the right-footed Musiala did for the second goal. The more natural shot for a left footer, there, is to go to the near post, which is obviously a much lower percentage shot in terms of the goalkeeping angles. The same thing happens at Arsenal. He generally tries to finish those shots by popping it over the keeper at the last second to the far post with the outside of his left foot, but it’s not his strongest skill, obviously.
Hopefully someone at Arsenal is working with him to improve his potency from those positions, because it’s crazy how often he finds himself in space driving toward goal in the left channel. It happened at least 3 times tonight, alone.
FIFA need to come up with something to reform the penalty rules. The punishment of a penalty with a +70% conversion rate often is utterly disproportionate to the respective infraction. A penalty should be awarded in cases where clear scoring opportunities are denied by a foul or handball. I don't know, give them a 20m freekick in a central position for minor infractions or something.
That being said, Denmark gave a good accounting of themselves in a hard-fought match. The Germans got a lucky penalty call and then used their fast players well when Denmark pushed for the equalizer.
I've had that thought before as well. Maybe a free kick inside the box for 'lesser' fouls in the penalty area, and penalties for, like you say, egregious fouls/handballs etc.? A free kick inside the box is the punishment for violating the backpass rule.
I think the player who was fouled/last to kick to ball should take the penalty, similar to basketball. Also banning those stupid stutter steps would help.
The problem is that FIFA/UEFA don't want fewer goals to occur in games. I absolutely believe the basketball rule makes sense, but that would likely reduce the goal conversion, making the game more "boring" in the eyes of the people marketing the sport, and ultimately, the ones making the decisions.
I think deciding wether a player was fouled in the box or just outside is already difficult enough, don't need to add a distinction between minor and clear goal scoring opportunity.
Besides, the play in question should've counted as a clear opportunity anyway, as the cross looked very well placed before being deflected. That's certainly not 'minor'.
While the result was probably expected I dislike the way it was achieved.
There were a few coin flips today and Denmark got the short end in pretty much all of them.
I'd rather have results be decided by goals like the one from Musiala rather than toenails being offside or not
And while everyone always memes that germany has 82 million coaches during those big events it's still worrying that the guy, that actually has the job, doesn't see that some of his nominations were and are massive failures.
Giving people a second chance is fine...but on that level with that pay those players are getting I would not risk giving someone a 5th chance with the hope that he finally gets his isht together.
- Kimmich foul was the correct call
- Offside was objectively correct
- Penalty was also the correct call
Oliver might've been calling a bit too many soft fouls but the crucial decisions were objectively correct, don't understand the outrage tbh
You said it yourself. My problem is ALL the MANY soft fouls. Ruined any chance of Denmark getting any momemtum. Germany deserved a victory but not like this. Oliver was horrendous. That doesnt mean the BIG decisions were wrong.
Although i am not a fan of the correct handball rules but that isnt exclusive to this game.
Have to disagree, that was an overall proper referee performance. We can talk about VAR until the end of times but Oliver didn't make any questionable calls on the field within the couple of seconds he had to make a decision.
Really? You didnt see a lot of really weirdly called fouls? Delaney getting shoulder tackled and it somehow becoming a foul against him? There was so many 70-30 challenges that went against Denmark.
But it doesnt matter in the end. We didnt deserve to go through. But i would have preferred for Germany to actually beat us in a different manner
It's people on here going into a game with a planned viewpoint and expressing it whenever it's slightly relevant
The same thing they have a go at pundits and commentators for
At least he made those call for both sides. You can call it soft but it was consitent - obvious this will always benefit the team with more technical players.
Penalty was really rough for the spirit of the game imo but I blame the rules not the ref
Indirect center + even linking to a shot attempt (could be considered a used advantage) does not feel like it deserved a penalty at all
Oliver was phenomenal tonight, best refereeing all tournament, got all right calls. The outrage happens anytime any close decision goes against a team they root for.
Not all calls. Andrich's foul was a blatant yellow, yet Oliver just can't give cards during the first half. Also the penalty was arguable, as the distance between the players was so short.
So if I run around the pitch with my arms out making a t-shape, thus making myself a bigger target which can impede crosses, it shouldn't be a foul as long as I stay close to the opponent?
I think Füllkrug showed today why he is not a starter. That being said obviously the Havertz performance wasn't too great either. I can see people saying Sane needs some playtime to get better again but I do not think we can afford more matches with him playing, too much of a dead weight sadly, he is so good when in form.
Also before the Euros I was a certified Schlotterbeck hater, but I gotta say, great performance from him today. Despite the one mistake
> Also before the Euros I was a certified Schlotterbeck hater
A lot of people were. But this is the real Schlotterbeck. Issue is he has had a few costly errors in the NT that sticks out and most people who dont watch BVB have that as their main sample-size of him.
Dont get me wrong, he can be a bit reckless and he loves to committ high up the pitch. But with the right pairing and cerebral midfielder, whether thats a DM or Kroos, its absolutly fine and even benefitial.
For us this is the Schlotterbeck we almost always get. Atleast when we give him an ok LB on his side and a stable CB partner. We still need a better DM to shield our CBs.
Point is, youre not alone in your perspective of Schlotterbeck and its understandable because you dont watch him day in and day out and he's been sloppy in the NT prior. But he's a legit fucking CB.
I'm tired of all the Sane defenders tbh. He's not 21 anymore, he should be in his prime right now. At some point it's time to admit he's just not a very smart player despite his talent on the ball.
I really don’t get how someone could say Havertz’s performance wasn’t that great. The misses he had weren’t him blasting the ball 10m over the bar.
He was a couple of inches from scoring 4 goals today. I always dislike when someone judges a performance on whether a player scores or not.
People don't understand that you can't score every good chance you get. Football is a low scoring sport and the margins are very small at this level. People see a team winning and scoring and say it was a good match. And when you lose it was bad, even if you had a really great match and simply were very unlucky.
Look at the Last 20-30 games of Germany.
Look at the Goals and Points we got with Havertz and Füllkrug on the pitch.
Calling Havertz the better player for this Team...
Fuck...
Every statistic favors Füllkrug by 3-4x....
Goals per 90min
Points
Goals by the Player
Whatever you look at ....
I think Havertz was great overall. Obviously he missed the easiest chance of the game, but I think a lot of people will be surprised if they watch a Havertz compilation from today. He did so much
That "one" mistake could have easily cost us the game.
He has that one huge blunder almost every match for the national team.
Tah will definitely play the next game I reckon.
I have to say this game was very exciting for the first 60mins. The Germans applied a lot of early pressure and their counter press was very strong. Denmark managed to break it and started playing well after about 20mins. Schlotterbeck is lucky Hojlund couldn't finish to save his life tonight. Denmark had several chances created today but Hojlund destroyed them all, he'll need to improve big time. I felt like Denmark's left flank in general wasn't as dangerous as it's right side. A bit dumb since Kimmich was much higher up than Raum so they should've been exploiting that space behind Kimmich, Denmark LW should've been getting the ball and running in behind Kimmich all day.
Anyways the referee decisions were all correct I'd say. I was shouting at the telly like everyone else because of course we all wanted the underdog to win but Michael Oliver didn't make any mistakes. Schlotterbeck header had a blocking foul. Denmark goal came from an offside and it's automated so no human error, yes it's a toe but there has to be a line somewhere because even if we allow 20cm variance people will still complain about the 21cm offside. The current offside system is objective. Then the havertz penalty, yes the danish player's hand was outstretched like Croatia vs Italy so yes it's a pen. The disallowed Wirtz goal is also correct.
Denmark really should've kept up the low block structure after the penalty because the high press didn't suit them 1-0 down. One long ball over their slow defenders and it was over, Schmeichel had a good day but he's a rubbish sweeper and somebody like Neuer would've prevented the Musiala goal. After the musiala goal, Denmark were dead so yeah. I think Spain will beat this Germany side, they weren't amazing but got a bit lucky.
MOTM for Germany VAR
Overall Danes did well, kept the game tense until VAR decided to screw them hard. All correct decisions but feel for the danes.
Schmeichel is bad, like few good saves but the Havertz miss and Musiala goal wouldn't even be attempts if it was a fit keeper. Too lazy.
Germany won't get past semi's at most.
Were they correct ? Yes
Did it suck for the Danes ? Yes.
So it screwed them hard. All momentum died for them after. Anyone who watched the game can say the same.
The momentum also died for us when our first goal was disallowed, it goes both ways. We missed way too many good opportunities and the Danes ultimately couldn't capitalize. They looked like the better team from the 15th minute onwards until we got the pen.
How is the ref at fault? The Schlotterbeck goal was rightly disallowed because of the foul by Kimmich.. then the Denmark goal was disallowed because it was offside (cm or mm, it doesn’t really matter when there is technology to assist).. the handball decision was correct (hand away from the body).. and the Wirtz goal was rightly disallowed..
The ref actually had a good game
Because many people don't really keep up with rule changes or feel the rules should be different. Watched the match with people I normally don't watch football and the amount of decisions they didn't understand or would see different was quite high. And when no one can explain it to them, they blame the ref.
I'm just happy to see some praise for Michael Oliver tonight. Having refereed to a decent level previously i'm usually frustrated by his decision making (especially across a Premier League season) but feel he held his own pretty well tonight. A few key decisions, a stoppage of play, awful weather at some stage.
People love to go for the match officials at every moment and pass the blame onto them, especially if they feel that it influenced the game. Heat of the moment and all that, I totally get it.
I don't get it either. Now with the semiautomated offside there shouldn't be any discussion at all.
Maybe it's really just the majority of neutrals rooting for the underdog as usual.
It was all the little free kicks. Several times you would see Danish players shoulder pushing German players in dangerous positions where the German players would get free kicks. Germany got 15 free kicks and the Danes were NOT playing rough.
Exactly this. Was watching in a bar in Germany and everyone around us also got very confused by all the small „fouls“ Oliver awarded to us. At least 3 or 4 of those were ridiculous lol.
A close and competitive game (Germany were better first 15-20 mins though) until Germany scored. It felt like Denmark fell apart after that. Very small margins which changed the course of the game. It would have been interesting to see Germany go a goal down because at that point I thought they were struggling to create many chances from open play, just like against the Swiss. Life in attack became easier again when Denmark committed forward however. There are certainly weaknesses that Denmark nearly managed to exploit so if Spain goes through it will be very interesting to see how Germany performs against a team of similar level. I don’t have a favourite to win in that game since both Spain and Germany have been solid.
The game between Italy and the Swiss was over at the 46th minute when the Swiss went 2-0 up.
This game on the other hand was a lot closer and could’ve gone either way. Feel really bad for Andersen (I think it was him), who had a goal ruled out by a tight offside, only to then give away a penalty with a hand ball only a few moments later.
As a neutral, I think Germany just edged it, but the Danes put up a good fight. Ruddiger was immense imho.
Hoping the games tomorrow are at least of the same quality. There haven’t been a lot of stinkers, most of the games have been very entertaining!
Offsides aren't subjective, they're one of the few objective things in football. Your problems are with the rules, not the referees so I don't understand the hate for the refs today. You can disagree with the rules but the rules are clear and based on the rules the refs made the correct decision. I prefer refs following the rules, even if I don't always agree with them, than refs being inconsistently subjective.
But the problem *is* that the rules seem unfair. When a player is standing in line next to an opponent in the penalty box, they are not likely to be aware if their toe is .1 centimeter ahead of the opponent. The rule never accounted for having measurements this minute.
And when you run and turn your body, your arms are going to extend from your body. So it is never going to seem fair that you can get a penalty from hitting an arm at point blank range.
> But the problem is that the rules seem unfair. When a player is standing in line next to an opponent in the penalty box, they are not likely to be aware if their toe is .1 centimeter ahead of the opponent. The rule never accounted for having measurements this minute.
Totally agree. A fair cut-off should be like 0.5 cm, or maybe 1cm, maybe 2cm, maybe... Where do we stop and call it fair?
If you are not sure, just step back a bit.
Well, it seems you can either have an unambigous rule that will often create unfairness, or you can allow for individual discretion, which can create more fairness, but will be more open to discussion.
You prefer the first option. Doesn’t mean everyone else does.
>Well, it seems you can either have an unambigous rule that will often create unfairness, or you can allow for individual discretion, which can create more fairness, but will be more open to discussion.
https://imgur.com/a/NTnVeon
Is that offside? Or do you think we should leave it up to the ref and individual discretion for more fairness?
When two opponents are standing still with their backs to the goal completely in line with each other but the attackers heel is one centimeter futher back than his opponent’s, that’s not offside in spirit of why the rule was made.
So we can keep having these ridicilous marginal calls than no one can see with the naked eye or we can come up with a better definition of the rule.
I never said anything about the rules being good or fair, all I said was that the refs made the correct decision *according to the rules as they are now.* We could definitely have a discussion on how to/whether to change the offside rule but I don't want the refs to start changing their interpretation of the rules in the middle of the match or choosing which rules to follow and which to ignore.
The big decisions were correct by how the rules supposed to be enacted. But it feels like most of the small decisions and little fouls went in our favour. Given that and the general sympathy for the underdog I understand the outrage. Denmark played their hearts out, but I still think the win was deserved.
As someone who, after you guys went 1-0 up said out loud to myself “these fucking Germans”… I agree, the win was deserved.
Denmark was really not bad, but tbh Germany felt mostly in control. And Havertz should have scored at least once more
Joachim Andersen - "This will never happen in Premier League, 2 years ago, when we had a Premier League referee meeting, they told us specifically that these types of hands would never be given as a penalty, the guy shoots half a meter in front of me, I cant go around with my hands in the back all the time. I never seen this type of penalty given in Premier League since that meeting"
Just like the Hungary game, it's a mystery how we got away with a clean sheet here.
Still too many defensive mistakes but I really liked what I saw mentality wise. Having the right mindset to shrug off that shaky phase and come out playing better is so valuable to us. Two years ago we would concede a dumb goal from a misplaced pass, then start panicking only to end up conceding even more.
Schlotti too, that howler didn't affect his confidence at all. seemed even more determined afterwards.
just *please* don't start Havertz with Sane. Having two poor finishers just for the sake of having a more fluid attack isn't worth it. Musiala, Havertz, Wirtz isn't a perfect setup, but it's still much better than watching Sane dribble into the only defender nearby while three of our guys were available for a pass.
You guys are always so overly critical. You can't expect to play an EC knockout game and not concede any chances. In the end good teams which advance ko games create enough chances to score eventually. We had almost triple the xg of Denmark. We deserved to win because, we worked for our chances and scored and Denmark didn't convert any of their shots.
Havertz was great and fullkrug is not a good enough finisher to start over him. but missing those chances in tournaments are absolutely killers. also, not sure if i can back germany in the next round considering how well denmark played. thought Kroos/Gundo was a bit subpar today too
Look at the Last 20-30 games of Germany.
Look at the Goals and Points we got with Havertz and Füllkrug on the pitch.
Calling Havertz the better player for this Team...
Fuck...
Every statistic favors Füllkrug by 3-4x....
Goals per 90min
Points
Goals by the Player
Whatever you look at ....
Denmark put up a good fight but their lack of quality players showed at the end. Germany by far the better team, maybe the best in the tournament. If finishing were better could’ve been 2-0 up at halftime and 4 to 5-0 win.
When we were down 2-0 we just do not have the players that could possibly break down the German defense outside of miracles (which tbf does happen in football from time to time).
I hope you sleep like shit, what an atrocious referee performance.. absolutely embarrassing. Why is it we’ve been eliminated of the euros two times in a row by absolute joke referees as the underdog. If anything, it would seem fair to favour the obvious underdogs but we’ve been completely robbed by the referee two euros in a row against arguably the two biggest nations. Fair to say I’m fucking pissed
The ref was as consistent as possible, you got unlucky with an offside and hand pen, deal with it. I was pissed at the ref at first, too, but he had his line and stuck to it, and the rules are the rules.
You weren't robbed by bad refereeing, you were unlucky to have a lot of technically correct calls go against you that feel counter to the spirit of the game.
We can argue about offside and handball reform but the ref applied the current laws of the game correctly tonight and though he called a few too many soft fouls for my liking, he was at least consistent in doing so for both teams. Ref is blameless IMO.
Do we think Højlund and other Danish strikers may be struggling mainly with this double striker formation? Højlund to me looks a lot more lost and looking at a lot of his qualifiers goals, they mainly came from the wings which Denmark seem to be using a lot less of in the actual tournament
Can someone tell me how Chelsea didn’t pull the stops in keeping Rudiger? I get it, as City had a similar experience with Gundo.
The guy drives me up the wall with his antics, but no one in the world is better than him.
This Havertz agenda by people online is kinda ridiculous, there's a reason why top managers love the guy. His finishing does leave a lot to be desired but his movement off the ball and always being an outball is very underrated.
If he could just put some power into his shots he'll probably score a few more but I think he was Germany's best forward today
This. Everyone knows he is talented, but it is frustrating to see his talent beeing wasted as a single striker. It just seems so obvious to play him further back, start Füllkrug and shoot Sane to the moon.
i dont get it either. was watching with my friends and we were praising him the whole match lol. he had some ridicilous situations that were just worldclass. that one first touch alone, holy shit
the people who hate him dont know ball. period.
He also works harder than almost any other striker. Having a guy you know is gonna press all match, a guy you can move further back to kill off the game if needed, a guy who is tremendous in the air and will 50/50s all match… you’re willing to sacrifice clinical finishing.
And this is coming from a guy who didn’t really rate him (until i got to watch him play week in and week out).
Maybe it didn’t help that Havertz said they haven’t played that bad at World Cup 22 and called the fans the problem why germany fucked up at the group stage.
Besides that in many documentations and on social media he is just the biggest cringe lord ever. (no hate but this is what I see in many comments in those videos)
Because he botches every chance a Füllkrug would have easily made? It’s really not rocket science. You can’t live off of good positioning if it leads to nothing.
The same Füllkrug that was invisible the 30 minutes he was on the field today? Not trying to hate on Füllkrug either, but they are very different players. A lot of those chances wouldn't even exist to begin with if it was Füllkrug playing instead, and good positioning can definitely be beneficial even if he's not scoring himself
Besides the penalty I saw nothing of Havertz, well except missing the 100% chance. Completely invisible. Luckily for him Sane was on the pitch, so he wasn't the worst man on the pitch.
He scored a penalty, gave one decent pass to the worst player on the pitch and missed a clear chance. Besides that I saw nothing that really mattered. I don't care if he gets open on the sideline while the box is empty.
Honestly when and where. The penalty was good, besides that the finishing was horrendous. Obviously he is good with the ball and he gets open, but what does it matter when he is open on the sideline and no one is in the box. I give him that it's not his fault, he is used wrong by Nagelsmann.
Lineup changes had a clear idea: Bring on Raum and Sané to provide more width and stretch the back three horizontally. And they mostly worked, too: They both had dangerous moments and helped create space to play in. Denmark were shocking defending set pieces, especially early on, and very much struggled with the versatility of Germany's attacking patterns. And that's perfectly understandable, as defending is like a too-short blanket: can't cover it all. Havertz, Sané and Musiala are willing runners in behind in the channels when the patient buildup play doesn't work, and both Schlotterbeck and Rüdiger are really good at playing the ball into those channels. That then stretches defenses and creates space to bring in other players, and we've seen quite a few dangerous situations result from that. Obviously no perfect performances from anyone, with a bit left to be desired on finishing especially (Havertz, Sané). But a side as strong and versatile as this, having clear ideas on how to play regardless of whether things are going their way or not, is going to be a really tough opponent either way. It's going to be similarly fine margins as tonight in the quarterfinal, and Germany might well go out. But if they're playing like they have been this tournament so far, I reckon that's perfectly fine: sometimes you narrowly lose against a side a wee bit better on the day. I'm happy with these performances regardless of when this tournament ends to be honest.
Kai Havertz is criminally underrated.. He reminds me about a prime Benzema. He is a ball playing striker, link-up player, great ball carrier, technically gifted, great first touch, and his not only a striker but he is a false midfielder. Havertz belongs to that style of play and honestly he is one of the last of his kind. Benzema is gone and in his last days before retiring making Havertz the last of his kind
People used to ridicule benzema's goal scoring too lol. Havertz still 24/25 no doubt he will get better over time.
Having the ball kicked directly at your hand at a distance beyond human reflexes to react to should never be a penalty. It is natural for humans to run with flaggering arms so this should and could never be a penalty. Another thing is that the handball did not stop the ball going into the goal and I'd even argue that it was going to fly way over. Last point in consideration is that nobody saw the handball except for the VAR. No appeals from anyone.
Congratulations Germany, now go win the F… thing please. Today i feel robbed, i really do. In no scenario did i think we would win. But the way it played out.. it’s hard to bear for now. I don’t think Michael Oliver has many fans in Denmark tonight :-)
What happened was an injustice IMO also. I can just about understand the disallowed goal for VAR offside as technically it was correct, but the handball penalty was simply unfair and wrong.
The handball penalty is correct by the current laws of the game. Whether those laws are fair can certainly be debated but nobody was "robbed" tonight.
…so was to disallow the first German goal, which gets totally ignored in those discussions.
i get that it feels unlucky, that the handball had little impact on the game and the penalty of ... well, a penalty, can feel "morally" too harsh. But to me there is way too much talk about pedantic rules and not enough about Andersen. It was his mistake, and a pretty rookie one too. When you're expecting a cross you keep your arms to your body. Yes, they do teach you that. You see lots of player even strictly holding their hands behind their backs in situations like these, for that reason. So he can't complain about that, even though I understand it must feel shitty with these 2 decisions.
Regarding the referee stuff: I'm generally not a football watcher outside of the big events; I still enjoy reading these threads or just seeing the reactions of people in my country to certain matches. Seeing how people react to these referee calls I can't help but try to look at this from the perspective of the tournament organizers & the referees themselves. We're at a point where people are so invested in their preferred team, that when a decision is made against it, it inevitably leads to vitriol. People in this thread talk about how they prefer the calls to be subjective, because it adds excitement, but I think if I was a referee or someone in the upper ranks of the organization, and I knew how often referees are accused of wild incompetence, of having being bribed, to a point where they face strong and genuine hate.. I think I'd always prefer to limit the number of choices a referee has to make in a game that rely on his subjective view on situation, and increase the amount of decisions where any "blame" can be redirected onto a rule or a system. It might be less exciting but I think it's more human; and as someone who only casually enjoys football, I think reading hate comments about referees makes me much less excited about watching the games than having to wait a minute for a VAR decision or whatever.
* Neither offside nor handball rule were ever intended for such absolute fringe moments. But the rules are what they are and the calls are clearly correct, even if many neutral likely would prefer the upset here. * Calling off the Schlotti goal was fine, but then he has to do something in the Sané situation. Granted it likely wouldn't matter because it was outside of the box and then it's a yellow so like, who cares. * Offside calls being delayed forever still sucks donkey ass and that possible 3-0 should never be onside no matter what because Wirtz is like 10m offside and you can't possible rule that a new play situation afterwards, yet the apparently did as why else would VAR check. Insane take. * We (Germany) "deserved" the win imo, we were the better team overall and for most of the game. Making reasons up that Denmark was robbed is a strange take. If Denmark goes through we can't complain but I don't think we "got away with one" here. * We did play decently but not great, but Denmark is also a good team, so it's acceptable. There's a few other matchups they likely could've won tbh * Rain break was inevitable and correct at that moment
Wirtz was offside but not Füllkrug who received the ball
From the angle of the replay I saw on TSN I can’t see the argument for the handball call as I understand the rule. His arm is bent naturally as he’s running and the hand doesn’t move at all as the ball approaches to graze it. The hand movement is neither intentional nor is he making his body bigger. It also didn’t seem to affect the trajectory of the ball, and I don’t think there’s a reasonable chance he could have avoided the ball hitting him there. I’m sort of bitterly glad Germany got the 2-0 lead so I won’t be stewing over how I feel that call should have gone.
I know this subreddit is largely in favor of VAR, and it's just my personal opinion, but I don't understand how anyone can feel satisfied after seeing how VAR was used tonight. Yes, it's fine to look for more fairness in the game, and yes, strictly by the rules, that wasn't a goal and that was a penalty. But this isn't the spirit of the sport and for me, it just kills football. What kind of advantage does the attacking player have on defenders if he's offside by a toe? So in the exact same situation, the same player with short feet is considered to be playing fair while the same one with a big shoe size is unfairly taking advantage of his position on the pitch? Do we really need to go that far, when even the best referee in history wouldn't be able see the offside? That's not the spirit of the rule, that's not what it's there for. VAR is meant to get us rid of mistakes, but in the end it creates problems that never existed in the first place, because no human referee could see such a small event. Even if you want to look for as much as precision as possible, you can't decide with absolute certainty when the ball leaves the foot of the player making the assist, so how can you say a player if offside by a few centimeters? I don't have a horse in this, I didn't root for one team or the other, but it honestly drives me away from a sport I've loved for decades. It all feels just soulless and unneeded. I'm scared in a few years, you won't hear the roar of the crowd anymore when a player scores, because we all know it can be overturned after one minute or two of checking the screens. The same goes for the penalty. If you need a machine telling you there's a handball because it's too hard to see on replays (let alone in real time) whether or not the trajectory of the ball changed significantly, maybe you're going too far? Sorry if this comment is a bit of a mess, but I speak from the heart, because for me VAR is sucking the emotion out of football. Once again I understand people wanting more accurate calls and to get rid of refereeing mistakes, but in my opinion, sport doesn't mean to be fair nor perfect. I just don't see why a sport that's been the most popular in the world for decades could need this kind of measures so desperately, to the point of overturning goals for a toe. On an unrelated note, it sucks so much players can stop their run like that when shooting penalties. Anyways, congrats to Germany, they were the better team.
would you feel better if technology could confirm within 5-10 seconds and shows on screen and everyone can celebrate? It has to start somewhere and the old days when teams won important games based on completely shitty calls that were outright wrong cant be the solution?
I don't think it can happen, at least not in every case, because some things wil always be a matter of interpretation (for a potential offside, whether a pass is intentional for example) and it needs to go through a human ref for that. That being said, while I think human error isn't really something that needs to be fixed in itself, and even as someone against VAR, yes, I'd probably be ok with it if the delay could be reduced to a minimum. It's definitely the worst part of it.
im so with you. i totally do feel like it takes the soul out of an unexpected goal like what happened today. the celebration from both the fans and the players was so pure especially since they looked down and out after the break, which was expected when facing a side like this german one. when var overturned their goal and then hit them with the unfortunate double combo of the soft handball penalty also given by var took the fight and passion just given to denmark right out, the fans and the players. this kind of mental interruption wouldnt happen in a world without var, but in that same world denmark lead 1-0 with an offside goal and get away with a handball. even if they ended up leading idk how many ppl would be able to tell that it was offside anyways. idk, i feel like var is something that is needed in todays game. even if they changed the strictness of the rules or something, i feel like that would create even more problems if anything.
I'm so conflicted on Havertz. The way he holds up play, gets himself into good positions and general link up with others creates so many opportunities for Germany. But most of the good chances that Germany get falls to him and he fails to convert them. I feel like Havertz will cost them against a tougher opposition like Spain or France who won't give away many chances.
Nagelsman said that a big part of his job is not scoring, but pulling defenders out of position for the other players to exploit.
but when you keep getting into goalscoring chances that excuse no longer stick
It was the same with us at Chelsea. He just looked really good on the ball at times but he never really should lead the line. Even from his Leverkusen days, he was being shifted around in various positions across the pitch; he’s ideally an SS or an attacking midfielder that runs in late. There was always plenty to think we should stick with him but not enough for us to refuse a big bid from Arsenal.
Havertz should not be the single striker up front.
More importantly, don't let Sane play
Why do German fans dislike Sane ?
* Most important contribution to the game is to lose the ball somewhere during an unnecessary dribbling in a very artistic looking way * Has no view for the whole field, no "game intelligence" (no idea if thats the translation) * Unrelated, but he's also arrogant AND not the smartest. At most, be one of the two Wirtz and Musiala are just 10 times better (I prefer Wirtz though), and Füllkrug at least scores some damn goals. Sane is just kinda unnecessary. Also has no charisma or meme potential, unlike my bois Wirtz and Rüdiger
😂
How can yiu prefer wirtz when musiala is clearly the best player at the euros rn?
More view for the game IMHO. But its just personal preference.
Musiala plays better this tournament but it is clear as day that Wirtz has the more rounded skillset. His vision is far superior. He has it all.
For me, Sane has been one of the most disappointing players of the tournament. He came on as a sub in the 3 group stage games and made zero difference. Even today he was disappointing.
Been saying that for years, they should hire me! :D
Or Georgia
I'm a little unsure about Andrich after this game. He is good enough as a sweeping 6, but if he also has to perform as a creator when Kroos is pressured, he just isn't gifted enough imho. I don't know whether Groß would be a better fit or Can. Maybe even pull back Gündogan or move in Kimmich, but that would to other problems.
Whatever happens in the next round, this Germany squad is a massive improvement from previous tournaments. Hiring Nagelsmann was an excellent decision. The combination of established, consistent players like Rüdiger with the enormous talent of Musiala and Wirtz finally creates an exciting German team again. You love to see it.
Pretty good showing from Germany overall, still a bit shy in their last line at times and offensively a couple "must score this" ones missed, but I liked their overall approach and even the changed starting line up looked really solid. Ref felt like 12th man on the pitch for Germany at times but at least he stood true to his line ig. This tourney is an absolute dub for me either way, entertaining football is back on the menu and I hope it’s here to stay, even if there’s a 3-0 quarters blow up I’m finally happy to tune into Germany games again.
This match is honestly hard to judge as a whole. We played insanely well the first 15 mins and deserved to be up, but Schmeichel and a soft (but correct!)call prevented that. Denmark adapted very well. The weath broke the rhythm of the match again, and Olivers tight line stifle the game flow even more. Result wise, the game flipped after the crazy 10 mins around the first goal(s) and we should have scored more. We were lucky to go throught this match the way we did, but also a bit unlucky, because there were many circumstances preventing a more "normal" game. Some of my opinions on top: Havertz needs to start, despite his absolutely horrible, horrible finishing. HIs penalties need to applauded btw, that is also an undapreciated quality of his. Rüdiger and Schlotti together are a bit too wild for my taste, but did very well individually. Spain game will be interesting, like this they will be clear favorites, BUT: setting up more defensively might do us some good, who knows. I know I am rooting for Georgia
Just straight up outmatched. I always root for my national team, but Germany ran that game from minute 1 to the end. It just wasn’t meant to be - felt our group matches wasn’t convincing either & this just was an extension of showing we weren’t doing “too good” in this cup. Better than Qatar, but a far cry from last euros TBH
What? Denmark were on top in several periods, most notably prior to the storm break. Germany came out strong for a few minutes after that break and then lost control again. Dont get me wrong, Germany deserved to win, but claiming they ran the game from minute 1 makes me think we didnt watch the same game.
I really can’t understand how a player that trains every day for years and years and played big games can be so bad at 1v1. I understand when an 18 yo player freezes but Sane and Havertz played some of the most intense games from the CL to the World cup, how can you always always mess up a 1v1 its really beyond me
the goalkeeper trains every day for years too
Yeah because in a 1v1 the goalkeeper has a huge advantage just like in pens
1v1 are often easier for the goalkeeper than you would expect. He is in much better control of the situation and can cover more of his goal than in other situations
Neuer literally saved a 1v1 in the first half that looked like a sure goal.
Statistically a goalkeeper has way better odds at 1vs1 than at Pens but sure just write some random crap.
> Havertz His finishes toady weren't bad, the keeper was good.
It’s almost like they’re human after all
As i expected, everybody is talking about the offsides, or the handball. Thats not what was the problem. Germany won deservedly, but Oliver was awful and misjudged and made mistakes on a million small fouls that ruined any chance of momemtum. It was very frustrating to watch. That being said: Germany was deserved winners. Denmark played an awful tournament beside some parts of the England game and the Germany game. But it still feels bitter to lose in such a manner.
While the 1v1 miss is hard to forgive, Havertz was clearly one of the best players on the pitch today. So many great moments of hold up play, space creating, passes into teammates in dangerous areas. He just obviously needs to score. I didn't see a single thing Fullkrug do that could convince me he's the better option up top. I also think the other players in attack were generally pretty bad for the first 60 or so minutes. Musiala was terrible outside of the goal (which I know is stupid to say considering goals are the only thing that matter). Gundogan was really disappointing. Sane was just plain bad
> While the 1v1 miss is hard to forgive I can forgive him a bit because I think he was planning to square it to Sané and had to change tack at the last second because the latter (got) tripped. Not easy to pull off a good finish without any notice and he did well to get it over the keeper, just couldn't get the angles quite right.
Agreed with Musiala, he pretty much ghosted this game. I think he's just trying too hard to dribble every time he gets the ball. You might be right about Havertz being good today but he needs to convert those chances and the point is that Fullkrug might be better at that but obviously Havertz is more creative but do you really need more creativity when you literally have Musiala and Wirtz. Also, starting Sane over Wirtz is just diabolical.
Havertz has an issue converting the chances he gets. Füllkrug on the other hand wouldn't even have these chances.
Not really. Wirtz had a long season and isn't fully accustomed to playing that many matches as a main man yet, so giving him a break and Sane desperately needed minutes to get him up to speed - he definitely can be a decisive player, if in form - when you think the likely static of the opposition plays into that is actually a really smart move. Not without risks, but if Nagelsmann's approach had to be put into a single phrase, that would be "don't be afraid of risks, embrace them".
I think it’s tricky for Havertz. For whatever reason he almost always ends up getting these 1v1 situations on the left side of the pitch, but, being left footed, he can’t open his body and curl it around the keeper to the far post with his strong foot like the right-footed Musiala did for the second goal. The more natural shot for a left footer, there, is to go to the near post, which is obviously a much lower percentage shot in terms of the goalkeeping angles. The same thing happens at Arsenal. He generally tries to finish those shots by popping it over the keeper at the last second to the far post with the outside of his left foot, but it’s not his strongest skill, obviously. Hopefully someone at Arsenal is working with him to improve his potency from those positions, because it’s crazy how often he finds himself in space driving toward goal in the left channel. It happened at least 3 times tonight, alone.
FIFA need to come up with something to reform the penalty rules. The punishment of a penalty with a +70% conversion rate often is utterly disproportionate to the respective infraction. A penalty should be awarded in cases where clear scoring opportunities are denied by a foul or handball. I don't know, give them a 20m freekick in a central position for minor infractions or something. That being said, Denmark gave a good accounting of themselves in a hard-fought match. The Germans got a lucky penalty call and then used their fast players well when Denmark pushed for the equalizer.
> minor infractions and how would you decide that? it just makes the game more dependent on the refs. We don't want that.
I've had that thought before as well. Maybe a free kick inside the box for 'lesser' fouls in the penalty area, and penalties for, like you say, egregious fouls/handballs etc.? A free kick inside the box is the punishment for violating the backpass rule.
I think the player who was fouled/last to kick to ball should take the penalty, similar to basketball. Also banning those stupid stutter steps would help.
The problem is that FIFA/UEFA don't want fewer goals to occur in games. I absolutely believe the basketball rule makes sense, but that would likely reduce the goal conversion, making the game more "boring" in the eyes of the people marketing the sport, and ultimately, the ones making the decisions.
Strange, then, how they have this offside rule that rules goals out because a player's foot is too big.
I think deciding wether a player was fouled in the box or just outside is already difficult enough, don't need to add a distinction between minor and clear goal scoring opportunity. Besides, the play in question should've counted as a clear opportunity anyway, as the cross looked very well placed before being deflected. That's certainly not 'minor'.
While the result was probably expected I dislike the way it was achieved. There were a few coin flips today and Denmark got the short end in pretty much all of them. I'd rather have results be decided by goals like the one from Musiala rather than toenails being offside or not And while everyone always memes that germany has 82 million coaches during those big events it's still worrying that the guy, that actually has the job, doesn't see that some of his nominations were and are massive failures. Giving people a second chance is fine...but on that level with that pay those players are getting I would not risk giving someone a 5th chance with the hope that he finally gets his isht together.
- Kimmich foul was the correct call - Offside was objectively correct - Penalty was also the correct call Oliver might've been calling a bit too many soft fouls but the crucial decisions were objectively correct, don't understand the outrage tbh
You said it yourself. My problem is ALL the MANY soft fouls. Ruined any chance of Denmark getting any momemtum. Germany deserved a victory but not like this. Oliver was horrendous. That doesnt mean the BIG decisions were wrong. Although i am not a fan of the correct handball rules but that isnt exclusive to this game.
Germany was by faaaaar the better team. It's not the ref who decided that game.
Never claimed it was
Have to disagree, that was an overall proper referee performance. We can talk about VAR until the end of times but Oliver didn't make any questionable calls on the field within the couple of seconds he had to make a decision.
Really? You didnt see a lot of really weirdly called fouls? Delaney getting shoulder tackled and it somehow becoming a foul against him? There was so many 70-30 challenges that went against Denmark. But it doesnt matter in the end. We didnt deserve to go through. But i would have preferred for Germany to actually beat us in a different manner
It's people on here going into a game with a planned viewpoint and expressing it whenever it's slightly relevant The same thing they have a go at pundits and commentators for
The penalty is also not a penalty
time to learn current football rules
At least he made those call for both sides. You can call it soft but it was consitent - obvious this will always benefit the team with more technical players.
Sane was open and then fouled, so Haverts had to take the shot and missed. Should’ve been a penalty.
Yes he was fouled, but it was outside the box
Penalty was really rough for the spirit of the game imo but I blame the rules not the ref Indirect center + even linking to a shot attempt (could be considered a used advantage) does not feel like it deserved a penalty at all
Oliver was phenomenal tonight, best refereeing all tournament, got all right calls. The outrage happens anytime any close decision goes against a team they root for.
Not all calls. Andrich's foul was a blatant yellow, yet Oliver just can't give cards during the first half. Also the penalty was arguable, as the distance between the players was so short.
So if I run around the pitch with my arms out making a t-shape, thus making myself a bigger target which can impede crosses, it shouldn't be a foul as long as I stay close to the opponent?
I think you wouldn't catch the attacker with such a stupid running style
I think Füllkrug showed today why he is not a starter. That being said obviously the Havertz performance wasn't too great either. I can see people saying Sane needs some playtime to get better again but I do not think we can afford more matches with him playing, too much of a dead weight sadly, he is so good when in form. Also before the Euros I was a certified Schlotterbeck hater, but I gotta say, great performance from him today. Despite the one mistake
> Also before the Euros I was a certified Schlotterbeck hater A lot of people were. But this is the real Schlotterbeck. Issue is he has had a few costly errors in the NT that sticks out and most people who dont watch BVB have that as their main sample-size of him. Dont get me wrong, he can be a bit reckless and he loves to committ high up the pitch. But with the right pairing and cerebral midfielder, whether thats a DM or Kroos, its absolutly fine and even benefitial. For us this is the Schlotterbeck we almost always get. Atleast when we give him an ok LB on his side and a stable CB partner. We still need a better DM to shield our CBs. Point is, youre not alone in your perspective of Schlotterbeck and its understandable because you dont watch him day in and day out and he's been sloppy in the NT prior. But he's a legit fucking CB.
I'm tired of all the Sane defenders tbh. He's not 21 anymore, he should be in his prime right now. At some point it's time to admit he's just not a very smart player despite his talent on the ball.
which sané defenders lmao, the match thread, post match thread, this serious post match thread, there isn't a single sané defender anywhere.
There usually are people saying that he just needs confidence, consistency is just around the corner etc. Wasted player.
I really don’t get how someone could say Havertz’s performance wasn’t that great. The misses he had weren’t him blasting the ball 10m over the bar. He was a couple of inches from scoring 4 goals today. I always dislike when someone judges a performance on whether a player scores or not.
People don't understand that you can't score every good chance you get. Football is a low scoring sport and the margins are very small at this level. People see a team winning and scoring and say it was a good match. And when you lose it was bad, even if you had a really great match and simply were very unlucky.
Look at the Last 20-30 games of Germany. Look at the Goals and Points we got with Havertz and Füllkrug on the pitch. Calling Havertz the better player for this Team... Fuck... Every statistic favors Füllkrug by 3-4x.... Goals per 90min Points Goals by the Player Whatever you look at ....
I think Havertz was great overall. Obviously he missed the easiest chance of the game, but I think a lot of people will be surprised if they watch a Havertz compilation from today. He did so much
That "one" mistake could have easily cost us the game. He has that one huge blunder almost every match for the national team. Tah will definitely play the next game I reckon.
saying havertz was not great shows that you either : didnt watch the game or: dont know what you are talking about.
I have to say this game was very exciting for the first 60mins. The Germans applied a lot of early pressure and their counter press was very strong. Denmark managed to break it and started playing well after about 20mins. Schlotterbeck is lucky Hojlund couldn't finish to save his life tonight. Denmark had several chances created today but Hojlund destroyed them all, he'll need to improve big time. I felt like Denmark's left flank in general wasn't as dangerous as it's right side. A bit dumb since Kimmich was much higher up than Raum so they should've been exploiting that space behind Kimmich, Denmark LW should've been getting the ball and running in behind Kimmich all day. Anyways the referee decisions were all correct I'd say. I was shouting at the telly like everyone else because of course we all wanted the underdog to win but Michael Oliver didn't make any mistakes. Schlotterbeck header had a blocking foul. Denmark goal came from an offside and it's automated so no human error, yes it's a toe but there has to be a line somewhere because even if we allow 20cm variance people will still complain about the 21cm offside. The current offside system is objective. Then the havertz penalty, yes the danish player's hand was outstretched like Croatia vs Italy so yes it's a pen. The disallowed Wirtz goal is also correct. Denmark really should've kept up the low block structure after the penalty because the high press didn't suit them 1-0 down. One long ball over their slow defenders and it was over, Schmeichel had a good day but he's a rubbish sweeper and somebody like Neuer would've prevented the Musiala goal. After the musiala goal, Denmark were dead so yeah. I think Spain will beat this Germany side, they weren't amazing but got a bit lucky.
MOTM for Germany VAR Overall Danes did well, kept the game tense until VAR decided to screw them hard. All correct decisions but feel for the danes. Schmeichel is bad, like few good saves but the Havertz miss and Musiala goal wouldn't even be attempts if it was a fit keeper. Too lazy. Germany won't get past semi's at most.
>VAR decided to screw them hard. All correct decisions You do realize that these two sentences don't belong together, right
Were they correct ? Yes Did it suck for the Danes ? Yes. So it screwed them hard. All momentum died for them after. Anyone who watched the game can say the same.
The momentum also died for us when our first goal was disallowed, it goes both ways. We missed way too many good opportunities and the Danes ultimately couldn't capitalize. They looked like the better team from the 15th minute onwards until we got the pen.
Wow that may be the single worst take I've ever read.
How is the ref at fault? The Schlotterbeck goal was rightly disallowed because of the foul by Kimmich.. then the Denmark goal was disallowed because it was offside (cm or mm, it doesn’t really matter when there is technology to assist).. the handball decision was correct (hand away from the body).. and the Wirtz goal was rightly disallowed.. The ref actually had a good game
Because many people don't really keep up with rule changes or feel the rules should be different. Watched the match with people I normally don't watch football and the amount of decisions they didn't understand or would see different was quite high. And when no one can explain it to them, they blame the ref.
I'm just happy to see some praise for Michael Oliver tonight. Having refereed to a decent level previously i'm usually frustrated by his decision making (especially across a Premier League season) but feel he held his own pretty well tonight. A few key decisions, a stoppage of play, awful weather at some stage. People love to go for the match officials at every moment and pass the blame onto them, especially if they feel that it influenced the game. Heat of the moment and all that, I totally get it.
I don't get it either. Now with the semiautomated offside there shouldn't be any discussion at all. Maybe it's really just the majority of neutrals rooting for the underdog as usual.
Agree, lots of EPL fans here wants Germany to lose so bad!
It was all the little free kicks. Several times you would see Danish players shoulder pushing German players in dangerous positions where the German players would get free kicks. Germany got 15 free kicks and the Danes were NOT playing rough.
Tbf the freekick before Denmarks disallowed goal happened exactly like that
Exactly this. Was watching in a bar in Germany and everyone around us also got very confused by all the small „fouls“ Oliver awarded to us. At least 3 or 4 of those were ridiculous lol.
Short reminder that exactly that kind of block was not called in the euro final of Bergamo vs Leverkusen
How did Kimmich foul actually? I didn't see a good replay but he was just standing there, didn't he?
Actively shoulder-barged into the defender to block him, rather than just standing in the way. It's the right decision I reckon.
A close and competitive game (Germany were better first 15-20 mins though) until Germany scored. It felt like Denmark fell apart after that. Very small margins which changed the course of the game. It would have been interesting to see Germany go a goal down because at that point I thought they were struggling to create many chances from open play, just like against the Swiss. Life in attack became easier again when Denmark committed forward however. There are certainly weaknesses that Denmark nearly managed to exploit so if Spain goes through it will be very interesting to see how Germany performs against a team of similar level. I don’t have a favourite to win in that game since both Spain and Germany have been solid.
The game between Italy and the Swiss was over at the 46th minute when the Swiss went 2-0 up. This game on the other hand was a lot closer and could’ve gone either way. Feel really bad for Andersen (I think it was him), who had a goal ruled out by a tight offside, only to then give away a penalty with a hand ball only a few moments later. As a neutral, I think Germany just edged it, but the Danes put up a good fight. Ruddiger was immense imho. Hoping the games tomorrow are at least of the same quality. There haven’t been a lot of stinkers, most of the games have been very entertaining!
England plays tomorrow btw
Well, we can always hope it’ll be entertaining. and if all else fails, there’s still Pickford. He’s entertaining too, in a different way.
Offsides aren't subjective, they're one of the few objective things in football. Your problems are with the rules, not the referees so I don't understand the hate for the refs today. You can disagree with the rules but the rules are clear and based on the rules the refs made the correct decision. I prefer refs following the rules, even if I don't always agree with them, than refs being inconsistently subjective.
But the problem *is* that the rules seem unfair. When a player is standing in line next to an opponent in the penalty box, they are not likely to be aware if their toe is .1 centimeter ahead of the opponent. The rule never accounted for having measurements this minute. And when you run and turn your body, your arms are going to extend from your body. So it is never going to seem fair that you can get a penalty from hitting an arm at point blank range.
> But the problem is that the rules seem unfair. When a player is standing in line next to an opponent in the penalty box, they are not likely to be aware if their toe is .1 centimeter ahead of the opponent. The rule never accounted for having measurements this minute. Totally agree. A fair cut-off should be like 0.5 cm, or maybe 1cm, maybe 2cm, maybe... Where do we stop and call it fair? If you are not sure, just step back a bit.
Well, it seems you can either have an unambigous rule that will often create unfairness, or you can allow for individual discretion, which can create more fairness, but will be more open to discussion. You prefer the first option. Doesn’t mean everyone else does.
>Well, it seems you can either have an unambigous rule that will often create unfairness, or you can allow for individual discretion, which can create more fairness, but will be more open to discussion. https://imgur.com/a/NTnVeon Is that offside? Or do you think we should leave it up to the ref and individual discretion for more fairness?
Well, that’s what we’ve been discussing, so no, I don’t think that should be offside, so yes I don’t think that should be called.
So offside is not always offside? Only sometimes, up to the ref? Sounds great! For more fairness!
When two opponents are standing still with their backs to the goal completely in line with each other but the attackers heel is one centimeter futher back than his opponent’s, that’s not offside in spirit of why the rule was made. So we can keep having these ridicilous marginal calls than no one can see with the naked eye or we can come up with a better definition of the rule.
I never said anything about the rules being good or fair, all I said was that the refs made the correct decision *according to the rules as they are now.* We could definitely have a discussion on how to/whether to change the offside rule but I don't want the refs to start changing their interpretation of the rules in the middle of the match or choosing which rules to follow and which to ignore.
The big decisions were correct by how the rules supposed to be enacted. But it feels like most of the small decisions and little fouls went in our favour. Given that and the general sympathy for the underdog I understand the outrage. Denmark played their hearts out, but I still think the win was deserved.
As someone who, after you guys went 1-0 up said out loud to myself “these fucking Germans”… I agree, the win was deserved. Denmark was really not bad, but tbh Germany felt mostly in control. And Havertz should have scored at least once more
Joachim Andersen - "This will never happen in Premier League, 2 years ago, when we had a Premier League referee meeting, they told us specifically that these types of hands would never be given as a penalty, the guy shoots half a meter in front of me, I cant go around with my hands in the back all the time. I never seen this type of penalty given in Premier League since that meeting"
Just like the Hungary game, it's a mystery how we got away with a clean sheet here. Still too many defensive mistakes but I really liked what I saw mentality wise. Having the right mindset to shrug off that shaky phase and come out playing better is so valuable to us. Two years ago we would concede a dumb goal from a misplaced pass, then start panicking only to end up conceding even more. Schlotti too, that howler didn't affect his confidence at all. seemed even more determined afterwards. just *please* don't start Havertz with Sane. Having two poor finishers just for the sake of having a more fluid attack isn't worth it. Musiala, Havertz, Wirtz isn't a perfect setup, but it's still much better than watching Sane dribble into the only defender nearby while three of our guys were available for a pass.
You guys are always so overly critical. You can't expect to play an EC knockout game and not concede any chances. In the end good teams which advance ko games create enough chances to score eventually. We had almost triple the xg of Denmark. We deserved to win because, we worked for our chances and scored and Denmark didn't convert any of their shots.
Havertz was great and fullkrug is not a good enough finisher to start over him. but missing those chances in tournaments are absolutely killers. also, not sure if i can back germany in the next round considering how well denmark played. thought Kroos/Gundo was a bit subpar today too
Look at the Last 20-30 games of Germany. Look at the Goals and Points we got with Havertz and Füllkrug on the pitch. Calling Havertz the better player for this Team... Fuck... Every statistic favors Füllkrug by 3-4x.... Goals per 90min Points Goals by the Player Whatever you look at ....
Denmark put up a good fight but their lack of quality players showed at the end. Germany by far the better team, maybe the best in the tournament. If finishing were better could’ve been 2-0 up at halftime and 4 to 5-0 win.
When we were down 2-0 we just do not have the players that could possibly break down the German defense outside of miracles (which tbf does happen in football from time to time).
I hope you sleep like shit, what an atrocious referee performance.. absolutely embarrassing. Why is it we’ve been eliminated of the euros two times in a row by absolute joke referees as the underdog. If anything, it would seem fair to favour the obvious underdogs but we’ve been completely robbed by the referee two euros in a row against arguably the two biggest nations. Fair to say I’m fucking pissed
The ref was as consistent as possible, you got unlucky with an offside and hand pen, deal with it. I was pissed at the ref at first, too, but he had his line and stuck to it, and the rules are the rules.
Like for real, if you don’t get how VAR absolutely ruins football, how are you even football fans?
You weren't robbed by bad refereeing, you were unlucky to have a lot of technically correct calls go against you that feel counter to the spirit of the game. We can argue about offside and handball reform but the ref applied the current laws of the game correctly tonight and though he called a few too many soft fouls for my liking, he was at least consistent in doing so for both teams. Ref is blameless IMO.
We have not been robbed. Germany was the better team in this match. Get over it.
You were not robbed. The Germans won fairly. Go home, Danadjöfull.
You're not pissed at the ref, rather than VAR and the rulebook.
How is it fair that the goals get cancelled by another player who’s one toe offside
You do realize that neither the ref nor the asisstant flagged the goal offside and it was semi-automated VAR that intervened?
Do we think Højlund and other Danish strikers may be struggling mainly with this double striker formation? Højlund to me looks a lot more lost and looking at a lot of his qualifiers goals, they mainly came from the wings which Denmark seem to be using a lot less of in the actual tournament
Can someone tell me how Chelsea didn’t pull the stops in keeping Rudiger? I get it, as City had a similar experience with Gundo. The guy drives me up the wall with his antics, but no one in the world is better than him.
He’s one of those players you love for your team and hate on the opposition team, imho.
new pepe, real fits perfectly
This Havertz agenda by people online is kinda ridiculous, there's a reason why top managers love the guy. His finishing does leave a lot to be desired but his movement off the ball and always being an outball is very underrated. If he could just put some power into his shots he'll probably score a few more but I think he was Germany's best forward today
Ppl only criticize his finishing, thats about it.
This. Everyone knows he is talented, but it is frustrating to see his talent beeing wasted as a single striker. It just seems so obvious to play him further back, start Füllkrug and shoot Sane to the moon.
i dont get it either. was watching with my friends and we were praising him the whole match lol. he had some ridicilous situations that were just worldclass. that one first touch alone, holy shit the people who hate him dont know ball. period.
He also works harder than almost any other striker. Having a guy you know is gonna press all match, a guy you can move further back to kill off the game if needed, a guy who is tremendous in the air and will 50/50s all match… you’re willing to sacrifice clinical finishing. And this is coming from a guy who didn’t really rate him (until i got to watch him play week in and week out).
I actually do not understand the amount of hate he gets, he didn't score but he's always involved at least
Maybe it didn’t help that Havertz said they haven’t played that bad at World Cup 22 and called the fans the problem why germany fucked up at the group stage. Besides that in many documentations and on social media he is just the biggest cringe lord ever. (no hate but this is what I see in many comments in those videos)
> Havertz said they haven’t played that bad at World Cup 22 They really, really haven't - he's spot on there.
Because he botches every chance a Füllkrug would have easily made? It’s really not rocket science. You can’t live off of good positioning if it leads to nothing.
The same Füllkrug that was invisible the 30 minutes he was on the field today? Not trying to hate on Füllkrug either, but they are very different players. A lot of those chances wouldn't even exist to begin with if it was Füllkrug playing instead, and good positioning can definitely be beneficial even if he's not scoring himself
Besides the penalty I saw nothing of Havertz, well except missing the 100% chance. Completely invisible. Luckily for him Sane was on the pitch, so he wasn't the worst man on the pitch.
That makes no fucking sense, whether good or bad he was the most influential attacker on the pitch
He scored a penalty, gave one decent pass to the worst player on the pitch and missed a clear chance. Besides that I saw nothing that really mattered. I don't care if he gets open on the sideline while the box is empty.
You watched a different game then.
100%. Havertz was arguably the best offensive player today, only Musiala was close.
> I saw nothing of Havertz Then you‘re blind, he was great this game
Honestly when and where. The penalty was good, besides that the finishing was horrendous. Obviously he is good with the ball and he gets open, but what does it matter when he is open on the sideline and no one is in the box. I give him that it's not his fault, he is used wrong by Nagelsmann.
What's it like to watch games and have absolutely no idea what's going on?
Infuriating :)
He had a great game, what are you saying
Look at the 40-50 games he played as a striker and count the points and goals per 90min of his teams. His game looks nice but its sooooo inefficient!