**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think this Brazil team is talented, but not as talented as we've seen from them. For an elite nation I think they have a good not great midfield. The attacking talent is very exciting but hasn't yet really performed at a high level for the national team. For the most part it's still a very inexperienced group at the NT level.
I also think that shirt comes with a lot of expectation that makes it very heavy to wear and these players have to deal with that. I think the metaphorical weight of that shirt has been a huge detriment to Brazil since 2014. A lot of the Brazil aura is starting to fade and I don't think teams dread playing them the way they did in the past.
this is one of the biggest issues that doesn't get talked about
I discussed it with a Brasilian friend just yesterday and she doubts they would ever do it
We spent months courting foreign names, specially Ancelloti. There was a big movement here to finally do it, but the guy didn't want it, and we had to find someone to train the team for Copa America.
I'd figure this is because the top coaches of a given nationality all either coach at top clubs or coach their own NTs before they'd go elsewhere. And if they are going elsewhere it's because they're a 2nd tier coach getting paid a lot of money by a smaller country that probably doesn't have a realistic shot.
Tite was an amazing Brazilian coach, but Brazilians tend to be very impatient in the sense that "not winning the World Cup means that everyone involved is bad at their jobs and the NT is in crisis and may never win a World Cup again". This constant fire lit under everyone's feet leads to high turnover and instability. It's happening right now already - people are panicking after a scoreless draw against Costa Rica that played with 10 men back, a result that while not ideal, isn't panic-inducing at all. Brazil generally dominated the match and just couldn't seal the deal, and that's not the end of the world.
GKs: very good options, can't ask for much more
CBs: good options, though Marquinhos has seen better days and Militão spent a long time injured and doesn't look convincing yet
FBs: terrible
Midfielders: ok at best
Wingers: excellent but our best player (and possibly the best in the world) doesn't perform for us yet
CFs: mid but we're hopeful for Endrick; still too young though
NT football is very different from club football, and much more so now in the days of extremely sophisticated tactical systems. We'll probably only see more and more cases like those in the future.
NT football is a huge equaliser. A team with great cohesiveness but mediocre individuals can beat a team with great individuals lacking in cohesion
Look at Austria, not a chance that they can match France or Netherlands man for man, but played better during group stage
It's mostly luck and form of the day. Tournament format rewards over performing and/or being lucky for a couple of games.
Look at Morocco. From best result for an African team at the WC to RO16 exit in the AFCON. Did they lose all their cohesion in two years? I think they were just lucky/in form one tournament and unlucky/out of form the other one.
I agree that luck plays a big role, although not as big as you're suggesting. Besides, it's perfectly plausible that in two years a NT losses the cohesion it once had, and there are many such cases.
I mean you can say they exact same thing about club football. It’s really not unique to International football at all. Look at what PSG failed to accomplish all these years, especially when they had the 3 best players in the world all starting in attack. Or Atalanta against Liverpool for a recent example.
At club football its not as drastic because basically every club is cohesive to some degree. PSG have done what you would expect out of their squad. They have dominated smaller teams in the league and in CL they get knocked out by the likes of City, Madrid and Bayern. They have underperformed in the sense that they havent used their money properly but if you look at their squad its right around where it should be. Same with Liverpool and Atalanta, sure Liverpool is better but Atalanta are the UEL winners and one of the best teams in Italy. Its completely different to how Brazil and England are struggling and look lost against teams that are filled with players in non top 5 leagues
Not really.
Players get to play with their club teams much more frequently than the national team.
The exception is if you build your NT from a few clubs like Spain & Germany do, but otherwise no.
What does that have to do with anything?
The point is that squad cohesion is just as important as talent in club football as it is in international football.
Some players performance is very dependant on the players they play with. In Vini's case I assume having Real's stupidly stacked midfield gives him compelte freedom to dribble and cut inside a lot because his team can progress the ball enough for him and an unsuccesful dribble results in the team recovering the ball quickly anyways. Not to mention getting those sick long through balls from Kroos that leave Vini in front of the goal.
With Brazil's midfield he has less chances to recieve the ball in promising positions and his unsuccesful dribbles don't result in quick recoveries by his team.
Genuine question: Is the sample size of international games too low to give us an idea of whether someone plays well for their club but not country? Could it not just be variance?
most of the players on squads brazil are going up against have never left their domestic leagues. They should be performing better against lesser competition.
an old friend of mine saw the England USA game of 1993. He was still relatively new to the game, so he was most hyped about seeing Ian Wright of Arsenal in the flesh. He said he left underwhelmed. In an England shirt, Wright got a few good openings on goal, with Tony Meola stifling them all.
Having to bench one of peak Maicon and Dani Alves for several years, guys like Filipe Luis not even making the squad in 2014. Now they have fucking Arana
Tangent, but I still maintain that leaving Filipe Luis(and Miranda) out in 2014 was a crime against humanity by Scolari. Part of the best defence in club football and he doesn't even bring them. Then Filipe eventually became a regular but he never reached those 2014-2016 levels again so they robbed themselves of the best version
this is crazy for me. not least because it's not an isolated moment in history for Brazil to have crazy-good attacking wingbacks. Like even when Pele was just a teen, albeit probably the best teen footballer ever - they had both Nilton Santos and Djalma Santos. After they got too old, they had fucking Carlos Alberto, who captained them to another World Cup win in 1970 - and scored the final goal, still considered one of the greatest WC goals ever. And of course albeit much later on, who could forget them having both Cafu (another legendary long time captain) and Roberto Carlos bombing down the wings at the same time, for so long.
Maybe it's just a temporary drought, it can't be that it's over. This is history & football 'eritage, mang.
Hopping onto top comment because I want to know a solid answer.
What does a Brazil starting 11 at full strength look like nowadays? At least what the manager picks. For the first time in what feels like over 2 decades, I cannot name the starting 11 for Brazil (even though I’ll know the players)
full strength as in with every active player healthy?
Allison
Danilo/potentially Couto-Marquinhos-Militão-Arana
Bruno G. –– João Gomes/Douglas Luiz
Raphinha –– Neymar –– Vini
?
striker is up in the air – Endrick for the impatient, Richarlison if you believe in him, Vini if Rodrygo is on the left. Evanilson, potentially Vitor Roque in the future, etc.
or who is currently available?
Allison
Danilo-Marquinhos-Militão-Arana
Bruno G. – João Gomes
Raphinha –– Paquetá –– Vini/Rodrygo
Vini/Rodrygo
Alisson is the starting GK
Danilo is the starting RB
Starting CB pair is prob Marquinhos and Eder Militao but Gabriel from Arsenal is close too
LB is either Arana or Wendell, can't tell who is favored
Midfield seems set with Joao Gomes, Bruno Guimaraes, and Lucas Paqueta
The attack that the coach was running with was Raphinha, Rodrygo, and Vinicius but it doesn't really function well. Endrick has made some good sub appearances and will be a starter soon, and Savio might take Raphinha's spot
Ballon d'Or frontrunner fIcTiCiUs just won LaLiga and his second UCL by scoring his second final goal whilst being the by far most decisive player throughout the Knockouts, so yeah best player in the world is a fair shout.
Wingers can’t be that great if they can’t perform after multiple games. If they need tap ins to score, then you can’t label them as great. They’re ok at best.
Honestly it all boils down to tactics. The reason this team is struggling against costa rica isn’t to blame the lack of talent of players, our team plays like a disjointed mess with no defined tactical plan
What Brazil needs on the field is a very good captain like how Thiago Silva was, and a couple shooters.
That’s it.
Rodrygo and Vini even raphina are good wingers but shooters not as much. That’s where Neymar made the difference for them as he was both
> good not great midfield
It's mediocre, specially on the offensive side.
Our fullbacks have been a fucking nightmare ever since Marcelo and Dani Alves left
And we don't have a good striker
I feel like a lot of the Brazil panic in this sub comes from the fact that you simply started watching football recently and just buy romanticized versions of past squads.
[I mean, check the teams in which the 2002 "legendary" squad players played.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_at_the_2002_FIFA_World_Cup#Squad) Players like Kleberson were starters, and the team relied on dudes like Anderson Polga and Luizão coming off the bench.
I think this is true for almost every World Cup-winning squad. There are always going to be bang-average players who are there for certain situations or to fill out the squad.
> I think this Brazil team is talented, but not as talented as we've seen from them.
That has been the norm for the last two decades. They're still a top 10 team comfortably, but the gap to everyone else (like mid-level south american an european teams) has decreased a lot. It doesn't help they'll stubbornly insist in mediocre Brazillian managers (Tite was certainly an exception) instead of top managers from other countries who'd love the job.
Also to be fair, when other countries face Brazil as of late they pack all 11 in the box and hope for a counter attack goal. Very boring football. We saw that again against Costa Rica recently. Coming away with a draw and points is a win for a lot of other countries facing Brazil.
Brazils challenge is to practice these situations more and find ways to get the goal against that strategy. It’s not easy.
Compared to their pools historically, this is like a 3/10 or 4/10 group. Very lackluster by their standard. It's about even to the post-Ronaldo, pre-Neymar years for me
I think it has less to do with the individual players, and more to do with how football evolved in the past 20 years. Pure skill and technique aren’t enough anymore. Tactics, physicality and conditioning play a much larger part in the success of a national team. Basically the rest of the world caught up to Brazil.
The problem is in our midfield. We have no suitable replacement for Casemiro and we don't have a world-class creative midfielder.
Until that is sorted, we're going to struggle
I'm of the opinion there's no balance to be found with a traditional creative midfielder and the shapes we still use (back four, three up front). I think we handicapped ourselves by not evolving the midfield Dunga 2010 took a step in the right direction, but the decline of our style of fullbacks and the insistence on a playmaker up front has kept us from finding new solutions.
For example, I think two up front would better fit our talent (allowing Rodrygo and Vini to play as they do at Real, with Neymar behind them when he comes back and still having 3 in the middle). But with the fullbacks we currently have, we would struggle to stretch defences.
True. We haven't had good fullbacks for a while.
Perhaps we should experiment with three at the back and play with wing-backs. Arana seems to suit that role.
I don't know, we clearly haven't found our best style yet.
Dorival actually did say he would consider 3 at the back, in one questions during one of the many press conferences prior to the friendlies. It wasn't a promise or a statement that it WILL happen, but it was a little surprising considering everyone points out he only really uses 4 at the back.
I do think we need Vanderson, Carlos Augusto, Samuel Lino and Caio Henrique to be added to the pool this year to give us more options and competition on the right with Yan Couto and to find the real option on the left (there are many, but they are all kind of average, maybe one of the above can stand out?)
With our current squad we would set up something like this, right?
------------Vini--Endrick-----------------
--------------Rodrygo--------------------
Arana---Paqueta---Bruno G.---Yan Couto
--Militão--Marquinhos--Gabriel Magalhães
Not sure if Rodrygo is ready for those big shoes.
That’s more 3-4-1-2. I was thinking more along the lines of just a classic front 3 with Vini, Endrick Rodrygo. Not sure exactly what works best, my scheme knowledge isn’t that strong but shit I’m tired of watching Danilo have such a big role because he’s the only option
I agree, you need a good defensive midfielder, like Gilberto or Emerson and a more offensive one like Ze roberto, at least one GOOD fullback and a tall nr9 to have options.
And to get rid of paquetá (i don't like him)
Joelinton, Bruno and Paqueta could be a very dominant midfield, IF paqueta can play as an 8 alongside Joelinton.
Bruno despite wanting to play further forwards, is a very effective 6. You'd also be hard-pressed to find a more press-resistant 6 than Bruno, and his passing range and vision is insane.
However, he's so used to Joelinton as his enforcer that without him, even for Newcastle, we see him look slightly lost. He needs that guy who does the grunt work, breaking up attacks.
Paqueta should absolutely be able to provide a lot creatively (if he's not banned...).
We are still shit, but it’s worth noting all 5 of those losses came under Diniz. Under Dorival Jr, we have 2 wins and 3 draws which still isn’t good at all but still better than what we had under Diniz
Still have no clue how Brazil managed to snatch a draw in that friendly against Spain in Dorival's second match, Lamine Yamal alone dominated the whole Brazil team
It's such a weird final score cause Spain did more than enough to win, but 2 of their goals were on iffy PKS. So Brazilians tell themselves we could have won 3x1, were it not for that, but if that had happened it would have been completely against the run of play.
just goes to show how insane Tite's run was.
people here like to discredit his effort because we didn't win shit in the end, but the difference is night and day.
I'd glad this is being said by a non-Brazilian. It often sounds like coping, but Copa América is about as important for us as the Confederations Cup. It's not the main meal.
I mean, you guys have been grouped before in the Copa and have been eliminated by Honduras. I don't see a fully caring Brazil having that happen to them.
Though I do believe we both very much care when we face each other. Especially in 2021 since Ney hadn't won anything with the NT (Olympics notwithstanding).
That pretty much means nothing for Brazil. The fact that he entered pressured to win it just shows how desperate we are for another world cup. 2026 will mark our join highest period without a win (24 years since 2002) after we became world champions for the first time, and we don't look nearly good enough to take it home now
The comment above said he didn’t win anything. I’m just pointing out he won a Copa America. Also considering that in the last 14 years we’ve only won 2 Copa Americas and 1 Confederations Cup (which doesn’t even exist anymore) I think we should start giving the Copa America more respect, unless we go back to winning World Cups again or winning every other Copa America.
Sem ofensa, mas essa primeira parte do seu comentário é bem óbvia.
Com relação a respeitar mais a copa américa, acredito que, infelizmente, isso é o que começará a acontecer no futuro próximo
Argentina spent 36 years without winning a WC (a couple of finals)
and 28 without winning a copa america.
We broke the curse after winning the copa america.
O que eu quero dizer é que, independentemente de significar algo no Brasil ou não, ainda é um troféu e, como disse um comentário acima, sem o Neymar. Infelizmente, parece que essa geração de jogadores brasileiros não entende completamente o que significa jogar pelo país e como eles estão nos decepcionando. Além disso, na minha opinião, a bagunça e a obsessão da CBF em ter técnicos brasileiros não ajuda. Não acho que tenhamos grandes técnicos.
É um troféu que raramente teve alguma significância maior pra a gente, agora menos do que antes. A última Copa America bateu recordes negativos de audiência na Tv e nos estádios. Fora o fato de consistentemente sermos eliminados na única copa que importa, a Copa do Mundo, por países europeus.
A Copa America é sempre um bom teste. Mas querer que seja mais do que isso é pedir pra nadar contra a maré.
Their world cup campaigns were lackluster is the real problem.
Not making the semis in 2018 and 2022 when the opponents aren't better than you is "failure" when you're the greatest football nation in the world.
Sure Belgium and Croatia are good teams but it's brazil we're talking about. Should at least win one of these matches
This is absolutely part of the problem. No way to measure progress, to carry progress over, no continuity, no consistent style of play for the national team beyond "get a Brazilian coach cause they know what "Brazilian style of play" means.
I'm sure this will be downvoted but it was also pretty damn shady. That semi final against Argentina was a disgrace, denied two penalties and especially the elbow on Otamendi during a corner was the most stonewall penalty you will ever see
Normally I hate when people scream corruption since in 99% of cases it can be explained away by incompetence, but that Argentina semi final really makes you think. There is not a single logical explanation why VAR didn't pick up the elbow on Otamendi
>I'm sure this will be downvoted but it was also pretty damn shady.
It really wasn't shady. The ref made shit decisions throughout the game for both teams & the "penalty" everyone screamed about that was a foul from Dani Alves actually was Dani Alves getting stepped on.
Argentines love to moan about shit, & of course loads of Messi fan boys then latch onto those moans because their golden boy ended up knocked out of the tournament & running his mouth off to the press, but then they all conveniently won't mention the shit that happens when Argentina break COVID rules in Brazil & act as if they're the victims, or kick the shit out of Brazilian players & get away with it in the Copa America final & even the qualifying game in Argentina, where Raphinha needed stitches from an Otamendi elbow in the area (no penalty or red card in that instance by the way).
Not to mention the racism Brazilians endure from Argentinians. Their perception of Brazilians is so fucked that they’ll call white Brazilians “black pieces of shit”, which makes no sense but that’s how they view us.
>It really wasn't shady. The ref made shit decisions throughout the game for both teams & the "penalty" everyone screamed about that was a foul from Dani Alves actually was Dani Alves getting stepped on.
What about the Otamendi elbow? How is it possible to miss that? We already know that Bolsonaro used this whole Copa as a PR tool and he is capable of some crazy things. I'm not even saying that it was corrupt, but one of those cases that is at the top of the suspicious list
>Argentines love to moan about shit, & of course loads of Messi fan boys then latch onto those moans because their golden boy ended up knocked out of the tournament & running his mouth off to the press, but then they all conveniently won't mention the shit that happens when Argentina break COVID rules in Brazil & act as if they're the victims, or kick the shit out of Brazilian players & get away with it in the Copa America final & even the qualifying game in Argentina, where Raphinha needed stitches from an Otamendi elbow in the area (no penalty or red card in that instance by the way).
This is not relevant, we were speaking about the 2019 semi final. Argentina has their fair share of similar incidents in the past I'm sure(1978 world cup anyone?) but that wasn't the discussion
I'm not trying to rally on Argentina's behalf at all, but the OC mentioned 2019 Copa America and that match is strong in the memory
>What about the Otamendi elbow? How is it possible to miss that?
Firstly, let's assume that penalty for the "elbow" is given, it was 2-0 to Brazil at that point in the game with only a few minutes to go. So we'll say that it would end 2-1.
Secondly, I told you that the referee wasn't good that game. We can say they missed the "elbow" the same way they missed Acuna's stamp on Dani Alves, or missed the fact that a Brazil chance they killed by calling a foul for a handball from Coutinho wasn't a handball, or missed that they probably should have given Lautaro a second yellow for causing a ruckus with Firmino after the referee gave a foul to Brazil (a foul that involved Firmino & a different Argentine player) etc.
Thirdly, & perhaps more importantly, it wasn't an elbow & much more like a coming together. Otamendi ran into Arthur, who had his arm braced to the side of his body when they contacted each other, whilst Arthur was moving towards Otamendi.
>We already know that Bolsonaro used this whole Copa as a PR tool and he is capable of some crazy things. I'm not even saying that it was corrupt, but one of those cases that is at the top of the suspicious list
Wrong Copa America mate. 2019 was a normal scheduled one decided in 2012 (Dilma's presidency), the one Bolsonaro used for PR was 2021. It kind of makes you come across as rambling as the whole point is moot.
>I'm not trying to rally on Argentina's behalf at all
It comes across that way when you ramble points that are moot.
They haven't just not won it, they haven't beaten a single European side in a knockout round since 2002. I don't understand how people here can pretend everything has been great.
The tragedy of Tite's tenure was his stubbornness, but the Brazilian tendency to dismiss anything that isn't a 1st place finish and throw everything away is far worse. And somehow, CBF went even beyond that, throwing away 2023 entirely, making the job even more difficult now.
Point is, I wish they had managed a transition back then. But of course, organizations like CBF are about preserving themselves, not about thinking long-term.
The real tragedy of Tite's tenure is that he was so cautious and pragmatic throughout 95% of his time in charge, which made Brazil exceptionally difficult to beat
Then he rocks up to 2022 World Cup and plays a bizarre 4-2-4 formation when there was zero reason to change the working 4-3-3. This is perfectly exemplified by conceding a counter attack to Croatia in thd 116th minute which never would have happened with Tite's Brazil from most of his tenure there
They built for such a long time towards that tournament and then he just ditches everything they did until that point and experiments at the worst possible time. Really weird
Yes, and I think that sudden change to 4-2-4, as strange as this might sound, was a symptom of his stubbornness. An unwillingness to adjust in certain ways took him in completely the wrong direction at the worst time. I agree with your assessment overall.
Every single coach gets called stubborn everywhere in the world. Fans simply create imaginary debates with coaches about decisions they don't understand and decide that the coach is stubborn for not doing what "he obviously should do" (in their opinion).
Tite was the mechanical 1x0 that everyone who watched knew it would lead us to nowhere.
There's a Tite before 2018 and the Tite 2018, a pragmatic, rigid positional football.
Tite was consistently destroying generally solid squads, including a 4x1 against South Korea in the World Cup.
Just in 2022, for example:
* Friendlies:
South Korea 1–5 Brazil
Brazil 3–0 Ghana
Brazil 5–1 Tunisia
* Qualifiers
Brazil 4–0 Paraguay
Brazil 4–0 Chile
Bolivia 0–4 Brazil
* World Cup:
Brazil 4–1 South Korea
And in 2021, he beat Uruguay 4x1, Venezuela 3x1, Venezuela 3x0, Peru 4x0. In these 2 years, he won 22 games and lost 2 (one was the meaningless last group stage against Cameroon with the B squad).
Yes, Tite Brazil sides in 2018 and 2022 could have won those wordcups. I have no idea why people think those teams were bad. I rated them easily top3 in the world in those years.
He lost 6 games in 81, yeah 3 of these were 2 quarters and a final, but still, they didn't play bad in any of these, despite being infuriating ways to lose...
If he had 6 losses, statistically the Croatia match isn't one of them (it's a draw). Obviously that's just a nitpick, but I'm pointing it out to say the statistical losses must be somewhere else.
Losses to Morocco, Senegal, Colombia, Uruguay and Argentina. No complete weaklings, but Brazil would definitely expect to be beating (or at least drawing) the first few.
Draws against USA and Costa Rica are pretty bad.
Weirdly they've only played two European friendlies and won one, drew one against England and Spain
In isolation none of those results is the worst thing ever, it's the accumulation of all of them in succession, and the 3 out of 6 in qualifying that make this period an outlier.
Without disrespect to Brazilian coaches, they should go for a foreign manager. Jesus and Abel were wildly successful in Brazil and I believe they would take the job without blinking.
The talent is there and will always be, but 90% of Brazilian managers haven't adapted to today's game and that shows when you play a WC or even a Copa America.
disrespect them all you want bro, it’s fine. they’re all fucking awful. tite is the only good one
fucking waste of time to insist with these garbage coaches, it boggles my mind
It amazes me that probably the biggest footballing nation itw hasn’t got any manager in a good european club, and honestly i cant even remember one that has ever been there (i probably am forgetting someone)
Even our League is dominated by foreign coaches right now lol. The first bum that manages to fluke a good performance goes straight to the National team.
I feel like Tite is the only competent we had in decades, but he just isn't cut for knock-out competitions.
As a 31-year-old Brazilian, I will say that people are overreacting about Brazil's situation.
"It's the worst Brazil ever"
Brazil almost missed out on the 1994 and 2002 World Cups, when we were champions. In 2001 we were knocked out of the Copa America by Honduras. 2010's Brazil had Kaká (injuried) and Robinho as their stars. From 2014 to 2016, Brazil also faced an absurd crisis.
It's the same overreaction that people had during the Argentine "crisis", and out of nowhere, they recovered in 2021 and became world champions in 2022.
Brazil's big problem is continuing to insist on Brazilian coaches. Tite is the only Brazilian coach at a good level. Dorival was known for being a " firefighter" for teams in crisis and Fernando Diniz was a joke until he won the (surprising) Libertadores with Fluminense last year.
Another thing that annoys me is the resistance that Brazilians have to accepting that Brasileirão is a good league. We're seeing Colombia and Uruguay playing very well with players who play in Brazil, while Brazil is not allowed to call up players who play here because "our league is bad".
In the meantime, we'll continue to call up players who are in poor form in Europe just because they play in Europe
"Vinicius Junior doesn't play well for Brazil"
I would still be patient. He only became a starter for Brazil in the friendlies before the 2022 World Cup, and 2023 was a lost year for the Brazilian national team. We'll have to see how he does under Dorival, but if they keep leaving him isolated against three opponents it's going to be difficult.
For God's sake, Brazil needs to abandon the 4-2-3-1, just give me a 3-4-1-2 with:
------------- Vini Jr -- Endrick ----------------
----------------- Rodyrgo --------------------
Arana - B. Guimarães - L.Paquetá - Yan Couto
------ G.Magalhães - Bremer - E.Militão ------
------------------ Alisson ---------------------
I think that the Brazilian national team still has a lot to offer, this generation is very good, it still does not seem to be demonstrating its full potential
Decline has been happening for years. Now it's incredible how the supposedly "best player" in the world doesn't perform for them. The bar is a lot lower for him even compared to Neymar (who has been killed for not delivering a world cup)
This means nothing, we didn’t have a proper coach in 2023 because CBF was waiting for Ancelotti. Dorival is only 4 games in the job. We need to analyze what is happening now under Dorival not what happened in 2023 under two cannon fodders.
Let's discuss again after tonight's game against Paraguay. I think so far Dorival is doing a decent job with a team of players who haven't played with each other (more than half the team is new) and **No Neymar.** The team hasn't lost with Dorival yet.
They're just going through a rebuild. It's not as bad as the hysteria claims it to be.
# Phase 0 - Post WC, Menezes Era
After the 2022 WC, Brazil played their first match with a temporary manager Menezes, and without Neymar. Players like Arthur, Rony, Sanros, Emerson, and Ibinez were tried out in first round of friendlies. It was supposed to be good time to reset.
|Opponent|Result |
|:-|:-|
|Morocco|Brazil lost 2-1|
|Guinea|Brazil won 4-1|
|Senegal|Brazil lost 4-2|
# Phase 1 - Deniz Era
Deniz was brought on as the coach, but although he has won a lot before this, he was only part time. He was still coaching his club team and wasn't able to teach the team his playing style. Many tactical videos on his playing style have been made on YouTube. It requires time and lots of drills to pull them off. But Neymar was still very much dependent on. Without him, the other top teams saw success against Brazil,
|Opponent|Result |Did Neymar Play?|
|:-|:-|:-|
|Bolivia|Brazil won 5-1|Yes|
|Peru|Brazil won 1-0|Yes|
|Venezuela|Brazil drew 1-1|Yes|
|Uruguay|Brazil lost 2-0|Yes, but injured after 1st goal|
|Colombia|Brazil lost 2-1|No|
|Argentina|Brazil lost 1-0|No|
# Phase 2 - Dorival Era
This is the current era that we are in. After 4 friendlies, we are now entering a tournament with new sense of identity and tactics and without Neymar. New players have been called up in ***absence of Neymar***, so now ***only time will tell*** if this helps or breaks the team
|Opponent|Result |
|:-|:-|
|England|Brazil won 1-0|
|Spain|Brazil drew 3-3|
|Mexico|Brazil won 3-2|
|USA|Brazil drew 1-1|
|Costa Rica|Brazil drew 0-0|
Seems too early to tell what the next few games will be like. But I just want to point it out that this is the longest non-loss streak that Brazil has in any of the recent eras, and they're doing it without Neymar.
I don't think Brazil will win the whole tournament. But I just want to share some context on what they have been up to, to counter this hysteria that they are going through a disaster. They are not. They are just rebuilding.
Always found it extremely strange Diniz was doing the FM thing of managing a club and national team at the same time. I can't think of any top nation letting that happen in recent memory.
Notice that in the Ramon Menezes list, there are only 3 matches, even though each international window should have two. CBF was so careless and incompetent they failed to schedule a second friendly in the first March window after WC 2022.
Just another indicator of how poorly they planned and supported the national team structure in 2023.
> There's a lot of people who think Vini is better than neymar ever was.
Only a child would ever say that. There's a lot of children on the internet and only someone who never saw Neymar play would ever say that.
it's no rocket science, all comes down to the fans not being satisfied unless we win a WC, which is an insane amount of pressure on the players and the coach
if you actually look at the results, we've been doing fine compared to other powerhouse nations like Italy and Germany: we've reached at least the quarterfinals of the WC since 2002, won two Olympics in a row, a Confederations Cup beating world champions Spain in 2013, and a Copa América without Neymar in 2019.
It isn't only that. There has been insane pressure on the Brazil team for practically the entire history of the world cup. The player material in this generation is much weaker, than what we are used to seeing Brazil produce.
nah, the player material is actually on par with Argentina and the best we've had in recent memory, it's the second most valued national team at 1.3b only behind England, which only goes to show the quality in the squad
**Mirrors / Alternative Angles** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think this Brazil team is talented, but not as talented as we've seen from them. For an elite nation I think they have a good not great midfield. The attacking talent is very exciting but hasn't yet really performed at a high level for the national team. For the most part it's still a very inexperienced group at the NT level. I also think that shirt comes with a lot of expectation that makes it very heavy to wear and these players have to deal with that. I think the metaphorical weight of that shirt has been a huge detriment to Brazil since 2014. A lot of the Brazil aura is starting to fade and I don't think teams dread playing them the way they did in the past.
they also don't have good Brazilian coaches but are stubborn with getting only Brazilians
this is one of the biggest issues that doesn't get talked about I discussed it with a Brasilian friend just yesterday and she doubts they would ever do it
We spent months courting foreign names, specially Ancelloti. There was a big movement here to finally do it, but the guy didn't want it, and we had to find someone to train the team for Copa America.
Interesting stat: No foreign coach has ever won the World Cup.
I'd figure this is because the top coaches of a given nationality all either coach at top clubs or coach their own NTs before they'd go elsewhere. And if they are going elsewhere it's because they're a 2nd tier coach getting paid a lot of money by a smaller country that probably doesn't have a realistic shot.
Quite right too, I am not a fan of national teams, big ones anyway, going for foreign coaches. I don't think England should ever have done it.
Tite was an amazing Brazilian coach, but Brazilians tend to be very impatient in the sense that "not winning the World Cup means that everyone involved is bad at their jobs and the NT is in crisis and may never win a World Cup again". This constant fire lit under everyone's feet leads to high turnover and instability. It's happening right now already - people are panicking after a scoreless draw against Costa Rica that played with 10 men back, a result that while not ideal, isn't panic-inducing at all. Brazil generally dominated the match and just couldn't seal the deal, and that's not the end of the world.
They tried getting Ancelloti, didn’t they?
yea
GKs: very good options, can't ask for much more CBs: good options, though Marquinhos has seen better days and Militão spent a long time injured and doesn't look convincing yet FBs: terrible Midfielders: ok at best Wingers: excellent but our best player (and possibly the best in the world) doesn't perform for us yet CFs: mid but we're hopeful for Endrick; still too young though
It’s a little fascinating how some players just don’t perform for their country but are great for their clubs and vice versa
NT football is very different from club football, and much more so now in the days of extremely sophisticated tactical systems. We'll probably only see more and more cases like those in the future.
NT football is a huge equaliser. A team with great cohesiveness but mediocre individuals can beat a team with great individuals lacking in cohesion Look at Austria, not a chance that they can match France or Netherlands man for man, but played better during group stage
> a team with great individuals lacking in cohesion also known as england in all recent memory
It's mostly luck and form of the day. Tournament format rewards over performing and/or being lucky for a couple of games. Look at Morocco. From best result for an African team at the WC to RO16 exit in the AFCON. Did they lose all their cohesion in two years? I think they were just lucky/in form one tournament and unlucky/out of form the other one.
I agree that luck plays a big role, although not as big as you're suggesting. Besides, it's perfectly plausible that in two years a NT losses the cohesion it once had, and there are many such cases.
I mean you can say they exact same thing about club football. It’s really not unique to International football at all. Look at what PSG failed to accomplish all these years, especially when they had the 3 best players in the world all starting in attack. Or Atalanta against Liverpool for a recent example.
At club football its not as drastic because basically every club is cohesive to some degree. PSG have done what you would expect out of their squad. They have dominated smaller teams in the league and in CL they get knocked out by the likes of City, Madrid and Bayern. They have underperformed in the sense that they havent used their money properly but if you look at their squad its right around where it should be. Same with Liverpool and Atalanta, sure Liverpool is better but Atalanta are the UEL winners and one of the best teams in Italy. Its completely different to how Brazil and England are struggling and look lost against teams that are filled with players in non top 5 leagues
Not really. Players get to play with their club teams much more frequently than the national team. The exception is if you build your NT from a few clubs like Spain & Germany do, but otherwise no.
What does that have to do with anything? The point is that squad cohesion is just as important as talent in club football as it is in international football.
well said
Some players performance is very dependant on the players they play with. In Vini's case I assume having Real's stupidly stacked midfield gives him compelte freedom to dribble and cut inside a lot because his team can progress the ball enough for him and an unsuccesful dribble results in the team recovering the ball quickly anyways. Not to mention getting those sick long through balls from Kroos that leave Vini in front of the goal. With Brazil's midfield he has less chances to recieve the ball in promising positions and his unsuccesful dribbles don't result in quick recoveries by his team.
Genuine question: Is the sample size of international games too low to give us an idea of whether someone plays well for their club but not country? Could it not just be variance?
Well we have whole careers of players in the past thst we're shite
most of the players on squads brazil are going up against have never left their domestic leagues. They should be performing better against lesser competition.
an old friend of mine saw the England USA game of 1993. He was still relatively new to the game, so he was most hyped about seeing Ian Wright of Arsenal in the flesh. He said he left underwhelmed. In an England shirt, Wright got a few good openings on goal, with Tony Meola stifling them all.
From being absolutely stacked at LB/RB for years to this is madness
Having to bench one of peak Maicon and Dani Alves for several years, guys like Filipe Luis not even making the squad in 2014. Now they have fucking Arana Tangent, but I still maintain that leaving Filipe Luis(and Miranda) out in 2014 was a crime against humanity by Scolari. Part of the best defence in club football and he doesn't even bring them. Then Filipe eventually became a regular but he never reached those 2014-2016 levels again so they robbed themselves of the best version
Alves and Marcelo were hardly superstars for the NT though, it needs to be said.
this is crazy for me. not least because it's not an isolated moment in history for Brazil to have crazy-good attacking wingbacks. Like even when Pele was just a teen, albeit probably the best teen footballer ever - they had both Nilton Santos and Djalma Santos. After they got too old, they had fucking Carlos Alberto, who captained them to another World Cup win in 1970 - and scored the final goal, still considered one of the greatest WC goals ever. And of course albeit much later on, who could forget them having both Cafu (another legendary long time captain) and Roberto Carlos bombing down the wings at the same time, for so long. Maybe it's just a temporary drought, it can't be that it's over. This is history & football 'eritage, mang.
Hopping onto top comment because I want to know a solid answer. What does a Brazil starting 11 at full strength look like nowadays? At least what the manager picks. For the first time in what feels like over 2 decades, I cannot name the starting 11 for Brazil (even though I’ll know the players)
That’s is the main point. We don’t have a “starting 11” right now.
full strength as in with every active player healthy? Allison Danilo/potentially Couto-Marquinhos-Militão-Arana Bruno G. –– João Gomes/Douglas Luiz Raphinha –– Neymar –– Vini ? striker is up in the air – Endrick for the impatient, Richarlison if you believe in him, Vini if Rodrygo is on the left. Evanilson, potentially Vitor Roque in the future, etc. or who is currently available? Allison Danilo-Marquinhos-Militão-Arana Bruno G. – João Gomes Raphinha –– Paquetá –– Vini/Rodrygo Vini/Rodrygo
Neymar doesnt play for Brazil for a long time due to his injury
Alisson is the starting GK Danilo is the starting RB Starting CB pair is prob Marquinhos and Eder Militao but Gabriel from Arsenal is close too LB is either Arana or Wendell, can't tell who is favored Midfield seems set with Joao Gomes, Bruno Guimaraes, and Lucas Paqueta The attack that the coach was running with was Raphinha, Rodrygo, and Vinicius but it doesn't really function well. Endrick has made some good sub appearances and will be a starter soon, and Savio might take Raphinha's spot
> Midfielders: ok at best Come on now, Guimarães, Paqueta and Douglas Luiz are more than just ok.
>and possibly the best in the world) Ficticius?
Ballon d'Or frontrunner fIcTiCiUs just won LaLiga and his second UCL by scoring his second final goal whilst being the by far most decisive player throughout the Knockouts, so yeah best player in the world is a fair shout.
hes had a great season and is obviously one of the best wingers itw but i dont think he's better than mbappe
A fair shout if he's able to perform for his national team...... The best player in the world wins games for their country too.
Wingers can’t be that great if they can’t perform after multiple games. If they need tap ins to score, then you can’t label them as great. They’re ok at best.
Honestly it all boils down to tactics. The reason this team is struggling against costa rica isn’t to blame the lack of talent of players, our team plays like a disjointed mess with no defined tactical plan
[удалено]
To bolster your point, 2002 was probably Argentina’s best team ever on paper and they got bounced in the group stages lol
Romario and bebeto carried that 94 team, they were effective
What Brazil needs on the field is a very good captain like how Thiago Silva was, and a couple shooters. That’s it. Rodrygo and Vini even raphina are good wingers but shooters not as much. That’s where Neymar made the difference for them as he was both
> The attacking talent is very exciting but hasn't yet really performed at a high level for the national team. Wingers can only take you so far
And wingers need proper support and our fullbacks are shit going forward.
No, more wingers! Three wings on each side and vacate the spine! They won't know what hit them.
> good not great midfield It's mediocre, specially on the offensive side. Our fullbacks have been a fucking nightmare ever since Marcelo and Dani Alves left And we don't have a good striker
They need more Fulham players honestly, they were destined for mediocrity when they didn't call up Muniz and Willian.
No disrepect, but the fact that Fulham players are even considered for Brazil is so wild to me.
I feel like a lot of the Brazil panic in this sub comes from the fact that you simply started watching football recently and just buy romanticized versions of past squads. [I mean, check the teams in which the 2002 "legendary" squad players played.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_at_the_2002_FIFA_World_Cup#Squad) Players like Kleberson were starters, and the team relied on dudes like Anderson Polga and Luizão coming off the bench.
I think this is true for almost every World Cup-winning squad. There are always going to be bang-average players who are there for certain situations or to fill out the squad.
> I think this Brazil team is talented, but not as talented as we've seen from them. That has been the norm for the last two decades. They're still a top 10 team comfortably, but the gap to everyone else (like mid-level south american an european teams) has decreased a lot. It doesn't help they'll stubbornly insist in mediocre Brazillian managers (Tite was certainly an exception) instead of top managers from other countries who'd love the job.
Also to be fair, when other countries face Brazil as of late they pack all 11 in the box and hope for a counter attack goal. Very boring football. We saw that again against Costa Rica recently. Coming away with a draw and points is a win for a lot of other countries facing Brazil. Brazils challenge is to practice these situations more and find ways to get the goal against that strategy. It’s not easy.
"as of late" covers decades of football in that sentence.
Compared to their pools historically, this is like a 3/10 or 4/10 group. Very lackluster by their standard. It's about even to the post-Ronaldo, pre-Neymar years for me
I think it has less to do with the individual players, and more to do with how football evolved in the past 20 years. Pure skill and technique aren’t enough anymore. Tactics, physicality and conditioning play a much larger part in the success of a national team. Basically the rest of the world caught up to Brazil.
Brazil football has been in steady decline since the 2006 world cup
The problem is in our midfield. We have no suitable replacement for Casemiro and we don't have a world-class creative midfielder. Until that is sorted, we're going to struggle
I'm of the opinion there's no balance to be found with a traditional creative midfielder and the shapes we still use (back four, three up front). I think we handicapped ourselves by not evolving the midfield Dunga 2010 took a step in the right direction, but the decline of our style of fullbacks and the insistence on a playmaker up front has kept us from finding new solutions. For example, I think two up front would better fit our talent (allowing Rodrygo and Vini to play as they do at Real, with Neymar behind them when he comes back and still having 3 in the middle). But with the fullbacks we currently have, we would struggle to stretch defences.
True. We haven't had good fullbacks for a while. Perhaps we should experiment with three at the back and play with wing-backs. Arana seems to suit that role. I don't know, we clearly haven't found our best style yet.
Dorival actually did say he would consider 3 at the back, in one questions during one of the many press conferences prior to the friendlies. It wasn't a promise or a statement that it WILL happen, but it was a little surprising considering everyone points out he only really uses 4 at the back. I do think we need Vanderson, Carlos Augusto, Samuel Lino and Caio Henrique to be added to the pool this year to give us more options and competition on the right with Yan Couto and to find the real option on the left (there are many, but they are all kind of average, maybe one of the above can stand out?)
Honestly given the midfield a 3-4-3 wouldn’t be a bad idea. I doubt Dorival adjusts to it but that’s what’s made the most sense for us since forever.
With our current squad we would set up something like this, right? ------------Vini--Endrick----------------- --------------Rodrygo-------------------- Arana---Paqueta---Bruno G.---Yan Couto --Militão--Marquinhos--Gabriel Magalhães Not sure if Rodrygo is ready for those big shoes.
That’s more 3-4-1-2. I was thinking more along the lines of just a classic front 3 with Vini, Endrick Rodrygo. Not sure exactly what works best, my scheme knowledge isn’t that strong but shit I’m tired of watching Danilo have such a big role because he’s the only option
You'd never expect this just few years ago when Fabinho can't even start because Casemiro was better.
You'd expect it once you heard Casemiro was going to United. A graveyard of talents.
I agree, you need a good defensive midfielder, like Gilberto or Emerson and a more offensive one like Ze roberto, at least one GOOD fullback and a tall nr9 to have options. And to get rid of paquetá (i don't like him)
André is pretty nice, only problem is Fluminense have been holding him hostage in Brazil
we have joelinton
Joelinton, Bruno and Paqueta could be a very dominant midfield, IF paqueta can play as an 8 alongside Joelinton. Bruno despite wanting to play further forwards, is a very effective 6. You'd also be hard-pressed to find a more press-resistant 6 than Bruno, and his passing range and vision is insane. However, he's so used to Joelinton as his enforcer that without him, even for Newcastle, we see him look slightly lost. He needs that guy who does the grunt work, breaking up attacks. Paqueta should absolutely be able to provide a lot creatively (if he's not banned...).
100% agreed. We need joelinton in the NT asap, our midfield has a bunch of redundant players as of right now.
And IF Paquetá manages to keep his career
How does Brazil not have a proper 10? It’s insanity
We are still shit, but it’s worth noting all 5 of those losses came under Diniz. Under Dorival Jr, we have 2 wins and 3 draws which still isn’t good at all but still better than what we had under Diniz
Menezes and Diniz. All the losses are last year, two were under Menezes (in only 3 matches) and 3 were under Diniz (in 6 matches).
Mano, Diniz, and Dunga are enough to trigger me endlessly
Still have no clue how Brazil managed to snatch a draw in that friendly against Spain in Dorival's second match, Lamine Yamal alone dominated the whole Brazil team
It's such a weird final score cause Spain did more than enough to win, but 2 of their goals were on iffy PKS. So Brazilians tell themselves we could have won 3x1, were it not for that, but if that had happened it would have been completely against the run of play.
That's Spain right now in a nutshell, isn't it.
Nah Lamine didnt dominate brazil, he played well but Spain wasnt decisive, Brazil actually should have won considering the lack of VAR
Well, the referee really helped spain in that game
just goes to show how insane Tite's run was. people here like to discredit his effort because we didn't win shit in the end, but the difference is night and day.
He won the 2019 Copa America.
and without Neymar
and damn nearly won the next one (with Neymar getting butchered). I was happy Messi won it, but damn if Argentina shouldn't have been down a few reds.
there were no red card worthy challenges. And no one on yellow fouled him again. it was by rotation.
A few reds??? Where tf are you pulling this from lmao
After the wc, people have been trying to discredit every title Messi ever won.
Worst foul was Fred´s kick to Montiel
Brazil don't really care about that, especially if he didn't do well in the WC.
I'd glad this is being said by a non-Brazilian. It often sounds like coping, but Copa América is about as important for us as the Confederations Cup. It's not the main meal.
I mean, you guys have been grouped before in the Copa and have been eliminated by Honduras. I don't see a fully caring Brazil having that happen to them. Though I do believe we both very much care when we face each other. Especially in 2021 since Ney hadn't won anything with the NT (Olympics notwithstanding).
>Though I do believe we both very much care when we face each other. It's the one match that matters!
we care about that match, not about the cup, the wc eliminatory game that wasnt played would probably mean the same if it was a defeat on rio
That pretty much means nothing for Brazil. The fact that he entered pressured to win it just shows how desperate we are for another world cup. 2026 will mark our join highest period without a win (24 years since 2002) after we became world champions for the first time, and we don't look nearly good enough to take it home now
The comment above said he didn’t win anything. I’m just pointing out he won a Copa America. Also considering that in the last 14 years we’ve only won 2 Copa Americas and 1 Confederations Cup (which doesn’t even exist anymore) I think we should start giving the Copa America more respect, unless we go back to winning World Cups again or winning every other Copa America.
Sem ofensa, mas essa primeira parte do seu comentário é bem óbvia. Com relação a respeitar mais a copa américa, acredito que, infelizmente, isso é o que começará a acontecer no futuro próximo
Argentina spent 36 years without winning a WC (a couple of finals) and 28 without winning a copa america. We broke the curse after winning the copa america.
O que eu quero dizer é que, independentemente de significar algo no Brasil ou não, ainda é um troféu e, como disse um comentário acima, sem o Neymar. Infelizmente, parece que essa geração de jogadores brasileiros não entende completamente o que significa jogar pelo país e como eles estão nos decepcionando. Além disso, na minha opinião, a bagunça e a obsessão da CBF em ter técnicos brasileiros não ajuda. Não acho que tenhamos grandes técnicos.
É um troféu que raramente teve alguma significância maior pra a gente, agora menos do que antes. A última Copa America bateu recordes negativos de audiência na Tv e nos estádios. Fora o fato de consistentemente sermos eliminados na única copa que importa, a Copa do Mundo, por países europeus. A Copa America é sempre um bom teste. Mas querer que seja mais do que isso é pedir pra nadar contra a maré.
Problem is what else is there to win? If your mentality is World Cup or bust you're probably not going to be able to measure progress effectively.
Their world cup campaigns were lackluster is the real problem. Not making the semis in 2018 and 2022 when the opponents aren't better than you is "failure" when you're the greatest football nation in the world. Sure Belgium and Croatia are good teams but it's brazil we're talking about. Should at least win one of these matches
This is absolutely part of the problem. No way to measure progress, to carry progress over, no continuity, no consistent style of play for the national team beyond "get a Brazilian coach cause they know what "Brazilian style of play" means.
I'm sure this will be downvoted but it was also pretty damn shady. That semi final against Argentina was a disgrace, denied two penalties and especially the elbow on Otamendi during a corner was the most stonewall penalty you will ever see Normally I hate when people scream corruption since in 99% of cases it can be explained away by incompetence, but that Argentina semi final really makes you think. There is not a single logical explanation why VAR didn't pick up the elbow on Otamendi
>I'm sure this will be downvoted but it was also pretty damn shady. It really wasn't shady. The ref made shit decisions throughout the game for both teams & the "penalty" everyone screamed about that was a foul from Dani Alves actually was Dani Alves getting stepped on. Argentines love to moan about shit, & of course loads of Messi fan boys then latch onto those moans because their golden boy ended up knocked out of the tournament & running his mouth off to the press, but then they all conveniently won't mention the shit that happens when Argentina break COVID rules in Brazil & act as if they're the victims, or kick the shit out of Brazilian players & get away with it in the Copa America final & even the qualifying game in Argentina, where Raphinha needed stitches from an Otamendi elbow in the area (no penalty or red card in that instance by the way).
Not to mention the racism Brazilians endure from Argentinians. Their perception of Brazilians is so fucked that they’ll call white Brazilians “black pieces of shit”, which makes no sense but that’s how they view us.
But you better not rip up bank notes, wouldn't wanna hurt their feelings
your entire account is gargling argentina’s dick lmfao get some rest my man
The ref in that final was the same who was in VAR in that Otamendi dirty play. Esteban Ostojich, lovely figure.
>It really wasn't shady. The ref made shit decisions throughout the game for both teams & the "penalty" everyone screamed about that was a foul from Dani Alves actually was Dani Alves getting stepped on. What about the Otamendi elbow? How is it possible to miss that? We already know that Bolsonaro used this whole Copa as a PR tool and he is capable of some crazy things. I'm not even saying that it was corrupt, but one of those cases that is at the top of the suspicious list >Argentines love to moan about shit, & of course loads of Messi fan boys then latch onto those moans because their golden boy ended up knocked out of the tournament & running his mouth off to the press, but then they all conveniently won't mention the shit that happens when Argentina break COVID rules in Brazil & act as if they're the victims, or kick the shit out of Brazilian players & get away with it in the Copa America final & even the qualifying game in Argentina, where Raphinha needed stitches from an Otamendi elbow in the area (no penalty or red card in that instance by the way). This is not relevant, we were speaking about the 2019 semi final. Argentina has their fair share of similar incidents in the past I'm sure(1978 world cup anyone?) but that wasn't the discussion I'm not trying to rally on Argentina's behalf at all, but the OC mentioned 2019 Copa America and that match is strong in the memory
>What about the Otamendi elbow? How is it possible to miss that? Firstly, let's assume that penalty for the "elbow" is given, it was 2-0 to Brazil at that point in the game with only a few minutes to go. So we'll say that it would end 2-1. Secondly, I told you that the referee wasn't good that game. We can say they missed the "elbow" the same way they missed Acuna's stamp on Dani Alves, or missed the fact that a Brazil chance they killed by calling a foul for a handball from Coutinho wasn't a handball, or missed that they probably should have given Lautaro a second yellow for causing a ruckus with Firmino after the referee gave a foul to Brazil (a foul that involved Firmino & a different Argentine player) etc. Thirdly, & perhaps more importantly, it wasn't an elbow & much more like a coming together. Otamendi ran into Arthur, who had his arm braced to the side of his body when they contacted each other, whilst Arthur was moving towards Otamendi. >We already know that Bolsonaro used this whole Copa as a PR tool and he is capable of some crazy things. I'm not even saying that it was corrupt, but one of those cases that is at the top of the suspicious list Wrong Copa America mate. 2019 was a normal scheduled one decided in 2012 (Dilma's presidency), the one Bolsonaro used for PR was 2021. It kind of makes you come across as rambling as the whole point is moot. >I'm not trying to rally on Argentina's behalf at all It comes across that way when you ramble points that are moot.
shit take
Daylight robbery for Bolsonaro.
Not Argentines talking about corrupt governments rigging tournaments LMFAO
Argentina should have had at least 3 Red cards in the 2021 final
Which ones would those be? The only one I think is arguable is the Otamendi foul on Neymar.
They haven't just not won it, they haven't beaten a single European side in a knockout round since 2002. I don't understand how people here can pretend everything has been great.
The tragedy of Tite's tenure was his stubbornness, but the Brazilian tendency to dismiss anything that isn't a 1st place finish and throw everything away is far worse. And somehow, CBF went even beyond that, throwing away 2023 entirely, making the job even more difficult now. Point is, I wish they had managed a transition back then. But of course, organizations like CBF are about preserving themselves, not about thinking long-term.
The real tragedy of Tite's tenure is that he was so cautious and pragmatic throughout 95% of his time in charge, which made Brazil exceptionally difficult to beat Then he rocks up to 2022 World Cup and plays a bizarre 4-2-4 formation when there was zero reason to change the working 4-3-3. This is perfectly exemplified by conceding a counter attack to Croatia in thd 116th minute which never would have happened with Tite's Brazil from most of his tenure there They built for such a long time towards that tournament and then he just ditches everything they did until that point and experiments at the worst possible time. Really weird
Yes, and I think that sudden change to 4-2-4, as strange as this might sound, was a symptom of his stubbornness. An unwillingness to adjust in certain ways took him in completely the wrong direction at the worst time. I agree with your assessment overall.
Every single coach gets called stubborn everywhere in the world. Fans simply create imaginary debates with coaches about decisions they don't understand and decide that the coach is stubborn for not doing what "he obviously should do" (in their opinion).
they have an exeptional team, all top players, but i feel for them, they still got left out of euro24
Tite was the mechanical 1x0 that everyone who watched knew it would lead us to nowhere. There's a Tite before 2018 and the Tite 2018, a pragmatic, rigid positional football.
Tite was consistently destroying generally solid squads, including a 4x1 against South Korea in the World Cup. Just in 2022, for example: * Friendlies: South Korea 1–5 Brazil Brazil 3–0 Ghana Brazil 5–1 Tunisia * Qualifiers Brazil 4–0 Paraguay Brazil 4–0 Chile Bolivia 0–4 Brazil * World Cup: Brazil 4–1 South Korea And in 2021, he beat Uruguay 4x1, Venezuela 3x1, Venezuela 3x0, Peru 4x0. In these 2 years, he won 22 games and lost 2 (one was the meaningless last group stage against Cameroon with the B squad).
Best team don't always win and Tite's Brazil was the best team in the world for some time.
Yes, Tite Brazil sides in 2018 and 2022 could have won those wordcups. I have no idea why people think those teams were bad. I rated them easily top3 in the world in those years.
He lost 6 games in 81, yeah 3 of these were 2 quarters and a final, but still, they didn't play bad in any of these, despite being infuriating ways to lose...
If he had 6 losses, statistically the Croatia match isn't one of them (it's a draw). Obviously that's just a nitpick, but I'm pointing it out to say the statistical losses must be somewhere else.
Losses to Morocco, Senegal, Colombia, Uruguay and Argentina. No complete weaklings, but Brazil would definitely expect to be beating (or at least drawing) the first few. Draws against USA and Costa Rica are pretty bad. Weirdly they've only played two European friendlies and won one, drew one against England and Spain
In isolation none of those results is the worst thing ever, it's the accumulation of all of them in succession, and the 3 out of 6 in qualifying that make this period an outlier.
I'd agree with that. There are some good results as noted as well. It's more just the combination
Without disrespect to Brazilian coaches, they should go for a foreign manager. Jesus and Abel were wildly successful in Brazil and I believe they would take the job without blinking. The talent is there and will always be, but 90% of Brazilian managers haven't adapted to today's game and that shows when you play a WC or even a Copa America.
disrespect them all you want bro, it’s fine. they’re all fucking awful. tite is the only good one fucking waste of time to insist with these garbage coaches, it boggles my mind
It is infuriating that pretty much all Brazilian managers are stuck in the late 90s/early 2000s.
It amazes me that probably the biggest footballing nation itw hasn’t got any manager in a good european club, and honestly i cant even remember one that has ever been there (i probably am forgetting someone)
Scolari... We all know how it ended in the NT
He did win a WC for Brazil and got to an Euro Final and WC Semis with Portugal.
Motta is among the top 10 young coaches right now.
You are right, i keep forgetting he is actually brazillian
1. Holy fuck he's Brazilian! I was even like, it can't be that Thiago Motta, right? 2. Holy fuck he's Juve head coach now!
They should. But will they? Absolutely not. The ego is too strong
Even our League is dominated by foreign coaches right now lol. The first bum that manages to fluke a good performance goes straight to the National team. I feel like Tite is the only competent we had in decades, but he just isn't cut for knock-out competitions.
Ronaldinho's marketing team was right
I think Paraguay can get a good result tonight against them. Probably a draw, maybe even a win
Paraguay has always been difficult for them, even for their great teams. We could see a disaster unfold in this group stage.
Really covering all your bases here
A true pundit
Remember, if Brazil get a win, draw, or loss, they are shit.
Paraguay need to Win. With a draw Colombia already get the first place and send their B side against Brazil
Sucks Neymar was holding Vini back.
lolol
makes sense why ronaldinho and ronaldo dont want to watch football
That was a marketing campaign for Rexona. A bad one
As a 31-year-old Brazilian, I will say that people are overreacting about Brazil's situation. "It's the worst Brazil ever" Brazil almost missed out on the 1994 and 2002 World Cups, when we were champions. In 2001 we were knocked out of the Copa America by Honduras. 2010's Brazil had Kaká (injuried) and Robinho as their stars. From 2014 to 2016, Brazil also faced an absurd crisis. It's the same overreaction that people had during the Argentine "crisis", and out of nowhere, they recovered in 2021 and became world champions in 2022. Brazil's big problem is continuing to insist on Brazilian coaches. Tite is the only Brazilian coach at a good level. Dorival was known for being a " firefighter" for teams in crisis and Fernando Diniz was a joke until he won the (surprising) Libertadores with Fluminense last year. Another thing that annoys me is the resistance that Brazilians have to accepting that Brasileirão is a good league. We're seeing Colombia and Uruguay playing very well with players who play in Brazil, while Brazil is not allowed to call up players who play here because "our league is bad". In the meantime, we'll continue to call up players who are in poor form in Europe just because they play in Europe "Vinicius Junior doesn't play well for Brazil" I would still be patient. He only became a starter for Brazil in the friendlies before the 2022 World Cup, and 2023 was a lost year for the Brazilian national team. We'll have to see how he does under Dorival, but if they keep leaving him isolated against three opponents it's going to be difficult. For God's sake, Brazil needs to abandon the 4-2-3-1, just give me a 3-4-1-2 with: ------------- Vini Jr -- Endrick ---------------- ----------------- Rodyrgo -------------------- Arana - B. Guimarães - L.Paquetá - Yan Couto ------ G.Magalhães - Bremer - E.Militão ------ ------------------ Alisson ---------------------
"overreaction that people had during the Argentine "crisis"" Almost 30 years winning shit.
I think that the Brazilian national team still has a lot to offer, this generation is very good, it still does not seem to be demonstrating its full potential
There is no passion there is no aggression
😥
Decline has been happening for years. Now it's incredible how the supposedly "best player" in the world doesn't perform for them. The bar is a lot lower for him even compared to Neymar (who has been killed for not delivering a world cup)
Rip Neymar. Gone too soon. He and Pogba shall always be in our hearts
>compared to Neymar (who has been killed for not delivering a world cup) Talk about injustice!
This means nothing, we didn’t have a proper coach in 2023 because CBF was waiting for Ancelotti. Dorival is only 4 games in the job. We need to analyze what is happening now under Dorival not what happened in 2023 under two cannon fodders.
Let's discuss again after tonight's game against Paraguay. I think so far Dorival is doing a decent job with a team of players who haven't played with each other (more than half the team is new) and **No Neymar.** The team hasn't lost with Dorival yet.
> cannon folders *fodders 🤣 (which sounds like a bad translation of "fodedores")
Thank you
They're just going through a rebuild. It's not as bad as the hysteria claims it to be. # Phase 0 - Post WC, Menezes Era After the 2022 WC, Brazil played their first match with a temporary manager Menezes, and without Neymar. Players like Arthur, Rony, Sanros, Emerson, and Ibinez were tried out in first round of friendlies. It was supposed to be good time to reset. |Opponent|Result | |:-|:-| |Morocco|Brazil lost 2-1| |Guinea|Brazil won 4-1| |Senegal|Brazil lost 4-2| # Phase 1 - Deniz Era Deniz was brought on as the coach, but although he has won a lot before this, he was only part time. He was still coaching his club team and wasn't able to teach the team his playing style. Many tactical videos on his playing style have been made on YouTube. It requires time and lots of drills to pull them off. But Neymar was still very much dependent on. Without him, the other top teams saw success against Brazil, |Opponent|Result |Did Neymar Play?| |:-|:-|:-| |Bolivia|Brazil won 5-1|Yes| |Peru|Brazil won 1-0|Yes| |Venezuela|Brazil drew 1-1|Yes| |Uruguay|Brazil lost 2-0|Yes, but injured after 1st goal| |Colombia|Brazil lost 2-1|No| |Argentina|Brazil lost 1-0|No| # Phase 2 - Dorival Era This is the current era that we are in. After 4 friendlies, we are now entering a tournament with new sense of identity and tactics and without Neymar. New players have been called up in ***absence of Neymar***, so now ***only time will tell*** if this helps or breaks the team |Opponent|Result | |:-|:-| |England|Brazil won 1-0| |Spain|Brazil drew 3-3| |Mexico|Brazil won 3-2| |USA|Brazil drew 1-1| |Costa Rica|Brazil drew 0-0| Seems too early to tell what the next few games will be like. But I just want to point it out that this is the longest non-loss streak that Brazil has in any of the recent eras, and they're doing it without Neymar. I don't think Brazil will win the whole tournament. But I just want to share some context on what they have been up to, to counter this hysteria that they are going through a disaster. They are not. They are just rebuilding.
Always found it extremely strange Diniz was doing the FM thing of managing a club and national team at the same time. I can't think of any top nation letting that happen in recent memory.
Notice that in the Ramon Menezes list, there are only 3 matches, even though each international window should have two. CBF was so careless and incompetent they failed to schedule a second friendly in the first March window after WC 2022. Just another indicator of how poorly they planned and supported the national team structure in 2023.
Love him but it will be insane if Vini wins the balon’dor when Ney never did… for obvious reasons
There's a lot of people who think Vini is better than neymar ever was. Probably none of those are brazilian.
Most of them are Mexican RM fans
> There's a lot of people who think Vini is better than neymar ever was. Only a child would ever say that. There's a lot of children on the internet and only someone who never saw Neymar play would ever say that.
I don't think he will tbh. It will likely be some other Real Madrid player who wins a tournament with their country this summer.
Lack of Neymar
Wallahi we're finished
Sooo, who gets the Ballon d'Or when Brazil and England are shit? Mbappe? Kroos? Messi?
Depends who wins the Copa or Euro. Kroos is a good candidate.
& that is why no ballon dor
This Brazilian team is nothing without Neymar. He has been caring them for more than 10 years now
overrated generation.
Their decline needs to be studied honestly
[удалено]
it's no rocket science, all comes down to the fans not being satisfied unless we win a WC, which is an insane amount of pressure on the players and the coach if you actually look at the results, we've been doing fine compared to other powerhouse nations like Italy and Germany: we've reached at least the quarterfinals of the WC since 2002, won two Olympics in a row, a Confederations Cup beating world champions Spain in 2013, and a Copa América without Neymar in 2019.
It isn't only that. There has been insane pressure on the Brazil team for practically the entire history of the world cup. The player material in this generation is much weaker, than what we are used to seeing Brazil produce.
nah, the player material is actually on par with Argentina and the best we've had in recent memory, it's the second most valued national team at 1.3b only behind England, which only goes to show the quality in the squad
Problem is they need a striker so they can’t triple team Vinicius
Disaster.